273 - Pat Lencioni on Trust, Burnout, and Finding Your Working Genius

Pat Lencioni, founder of The Table Group and bestselling author behind The Five Dysfunctions of a Team and The 6 Types of Working Genius, joined us on The Modern People Leader. We talked about his origin story in organizational health, how Working Genius helps leaders prevent burnout by designing teams around strengths, and how HR leaders can build trust and stay grounded as AI reshapes work.----  Downloadable PDF with top takeaways: https://modernpeopleleader.kit.com/episode273Sponsor Links:🔗 Try Viva’s $950 one-month trial at execviva.com/mpl🔗 Try AskChartHop at ChartHop.com/AIMPL Links:🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (06:30) Pat’s origin story: why he started doing organizational health work(15:06) What Pat has changed his mind on over time (patience vs immediate confrontation)(16:24) Trust + “Five Dysfunctions” discussion (why absence of trust breaks everything)(19:54) What sparked the “6 types of Working Genius” model(24:50) Burnout comes from doing draining work too long, not just “working hard”(29:19) The “Yeti mug vs hole in the cup” analogy (genius, competency, frustration)(39:25) CEO burnout cycle: suffering for others vs martyrdom, and designing coverage for what you don’t have(42:49) Using Working Genius for teams and hiring (cover gaps; hire for needed “genius,” not title)(47:30) Pat’s take on AI: different “types” of AI + the dignity of work and the human touch(52:53) 5–10 year outlook: job disruption, and using Working Genius to stay adaptable across industries (54:09) Trust in an AI era: fear, headcount signals, and how leaders rebuild trust (57:55) Leadership style + authenticity: lead from who you are, name strengths/weaknesses openly---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Brandon Sammut (Chief People and AI Transformation Officer at Zapier), Jenny Molyneaux (VP of People, Vercel), and Valerie Gobeil (Head of Talent Management, Workleap) joined us for a live session on how HR teams are actually using AI today. We talked about how to get organizations AI-ready, avoid “AI debt,” make smarter build vs buy decisions, and we walked through live demos of AI-powered performance reviews, hiring workflows, interview coaching, engagement insights, and more.----  Downloadable PDF with top takeaways: https://modernpeopleleader.kit.com/episode272Sponsor Links:🔗Try Viva’s $950 one-month trial at execviva.com/mpl🔗Try AskChartHop at ChartHop.com/AIMPL Links:🔗Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (08:46) Brandon on organizational readiness: leadership, talent, and culture as the real prerequisites for AI transformation(11:25) Brandon’s three-part impact framework for AI work: efficiency, quality, and employee experience(12:58) Jenny introduces “AI debt” and the phases of the AI journey from initial adoption to deeper productivity gains(14:41) Building internal AI enablers and “chief vibe coders” on the people team to help others ship and scale AI solutions(17:22) Zooming out to AI tech stacks: build vs buy vs “bot” and how HR should think about existing tools and new platforms(18:29) Valerie on activating AI already inside your HR stack and creating an HR data agent with a custom GPT(23:00) Transition to demo day: exploring what is actually possible with AI in HR right now(24:38) Valerie Demo 1: Using AI to spin up 360 performance review cycles, questions, and value-based sections in minutes(29:31) Valerie Demo 2: AI-assisted manager reviews that aggregate self reviews, peer feedback, goals, recognition, and Slack activity(32:16) Jenny Demo 1: Slack analytics leaderboard to gamify “working in public” and reduce DMs on the people team(35:15) Jenny Demo 2: Interview quality coach that analyzes BrightHire transcripts and slacks structured feedback to interviewers(37:41) Jenny Demo 3: Custom GPT in the CEO’s voice to keep outreach and employer brand messaging on tone across teams(39:11) Brandon Demo 1: AI-powered hiring plans that generate JDs, rubrics, interview guides, and Slack hiring channels via Zapier Canvas(48:25) Brandon Demo 2: Alumni engagement and LinkedIn recommendation agents that keep him connected to former teammates(52:00) Valerie Demo 3: Turning engagement survey comments into themes, actions, and board-ready executive summaries---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

DJ Casto joined us on The Modern People Leader to share how Synchrony is co-designing the future of work with employees.We talked about active listening at scale, building trust by being great not perfect, rethinking leadership for a flexible workforce, and why treating the employee experience like a product creates real business impact.---- Downloadable PDF with top takeaways: https://modernpeopleleader.kit.com/episode271Sponsor Links:🔗 Try Viva’s $950 one-month trial at execviva.com/mpl MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live Austin.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (06:16) DJ’s Origin Story: From First-Gen College Student to CHRO at Synchrony(11:19) What Synchrony Does: Credit Access, Health & Wellness, and Major Retail Partners(14:12) Co-Designing the Future of Work & Adopting an MVP Mindset in HR(18:27) Active Listening as the Operating System for People Programs(29:10) Scaling Listening: Pulse Surveys, Roundtables, ERGs, Wellness Coaches and On-Site Therapists(35:14) Avoiding the “Send One Email” Trap and Communicating 20 Different Ways(38:48) Great, Not Perfect: Building Trust, Prioritizing Requests, and Saying No Openly(44:51) Synchrony’s Hybrid “Way of Working” and Redesigning Leadership for Flexibility(51:48) Rethinking Performance, Onboarding, and Culture Centers in a Hybrid World---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Taylor and Melanie joined The Modern People Leader to unpack how HR teams can get out from under compliance chaos and admin overload to focus on business impact.---- Downloadable PDF with top takeaways: https://modernpeopleleader.kit.com/episode270Sponsor Links:🔗 Try Viva’s $950 one-month trial at execviva.com/mpl.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live Austin.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (06:00) — The problem statement: HR buried in admin, Q4 pressure, need for practical fixes(07:25)— Taylor on leave management as the high-stakes admin vortex and why great leave drives retention(10:18) — Melanie on overwork vs impact: earn respect through outcomes, not hours(14:08) — Reframing service: self-service, business-first questions, and saying “look it up” kindly(20:32) — Horror Story 1: Mexico-beach FMLA backfire and what the law actually allows(22:19) — Horror Story 2: CEO’s mis-sent inappropriate email and culture trust fallout(24:56) — Horror Story 3: Walk-by performance ratings in open cubes(27:42) — Taylor’s fix: design for simplicity in leave policies and automate approvals(28:57) — Melanie’s fix: make time your asset; test-outs, policy bots, AI course builder(33:47) — Q&A: “Minimum training hours” requirements and assigning only what’s legally needed(37:04) — Feeling “behind on AI”: why most teams are weeks, not years, behind(39:07) — Q&A---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Jessica Swank, Chief People Officer at Box, joined us on The Modern People Leader. We talked about building an "org brain", preparing managers to lead teams of humans plus agents, avoiding agent sprawl and tech debt, and why every people leader needs to start experimenting with AI personally to stay ahead.----  Downloadable PDF with top takeaways: https://modernpeopleleader.kit.com/episode269Sponsor Links:🔗 Start a one-month trial with Viva for $950.🔗 Talk to the team at Ethena.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live Austin.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (09:24) The GenAI Shift and What It Means To Become an AI-First Company(11:07) Box’s Three Pillars for AI in People and Communities: Optimize, Elevate, Amplify(13:25) Rethinking Roles, Skills, and Job Architecture in an AI-Driven World(16:17) Who Leads the AI Transformation: HR, IT, or a Cross-Functional AI Council(20:32) People Strategy in an AI-First World: Talent, Skills, and Leadership Expectations(23:55) Hackathons, AI Certification, and Box’s Step-by-Step AI People Roadmap(32:44) Leading Hybrid Human Plus Agent Teams and Rethinking Manager Responsibilities(37:20) Coaching, Feedback, and Performance Expectations for AI Agents(38:36) OKRs for Agents, Agent Sprawl, and Governance of Digital Employees(42:29) Tech Debt, Agentic Debt, and How People Teams Decide What To Build, Buy, or Wait On(47:47) The People Team Tech Stack: Build, Buy, Borrow, Bot in Practice at Box(49:10) Practical Advice for HR Leaders Just Starting Their AI Journey---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

We dug into Foursquare’s North Stars of vibrancy and velocity, applying design thinking to the people function, and their team-based performance model.---- Downloadable PDF with top takeaways: https://modernpeopleleader.kit.com/episode268Sponsor Links:🔗 Learn more about TopicFlow.🔗 Talk to the team at Ethena.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live Austin.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.Other Links Mentioned:🔗 Kit’s blog on why culture starts with performance ---- (13:04) Kit’s story(24:18) Why rebrand HR to People at Foursquare(25:25) Naming, value proposition, and aligning the people team to business goals(28:26) North Stars: “vibrancy + velocity,” big rocks vs prototypes, new engagement survey(33:11) People function as a product: design thinking, journey mapping, cross-functional experience team(39:09) First major bet: performance philosophy(41:35) Team-based performance model and measurement alignment(42:31) Transition to ONA focus(43:50) ONA background(47:30) Flattening org and team effectiveness coaching to support the model(49:07) Tying behaviors to leadership principles, career matrix, and team-based recognition(50:55) Research basis for high-performing teams vs teams of high performers(54:23) Metrics: measuring velocity (+43%), tradeoffs on coaching/feedback, new interventions(56:29) Theme of focus: advice for overwhelmed people leaders---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Shannon Hobbs, Chief People Officer at BNY, joined us to unpack how the bank is scaling its early-career pipeline, flattening org design, and running a culture-first transformation.We discussed BNY’s in-house AI hub “Eliza” (99% employee certification, 15k+ agents, 100 digital employees), plus practical advice for CHROs on building AI capability safely and at scale.---- How BNY is betting big on early talent (PDF): https://modernpeopleleader.kit.com/episode267Sponsor Links:🔗 Talk to the team at Ethena.🔗 Learn more about TopicFlow.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live Austin.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (07:31) Shannon’s career journey to CPO (Citigroup/Smith Barney → Morgan Stanley → JPMorgan → American Century → GEICO → BNY)(10:36) Advice to aspiring CPOs: say yes to high-need roles; build varied skill sets(12:59) BNY in 30 seconds: “the bank of banks,” custody/clearing and client solutions(13:40) Why early careers matter now; meeting talent where they are(16:03) Scaling analysts: 500 → 1,000 → 2,000; investing despite headcount scrutiny(19:12) Timeline & structure: cohorts, rotations, upcoming “franchise” track(20:50) Manager enablement: teaching leaders how to leverage new-gen skills(22:43) The manager role today and why flatter orgs help(25:03) What “flat” looks like: cross-functional pods, closer to clients, more accountability(27:57) Finding hidden gems: visibility, time back via automation, rewarding talent work(29:49) Transformation umbrella: why this is bigger than a reorg(30:27) Platform operating model: phased rollout, end-to-end commitment(32:26) Culture → clients: language, pillars, progress toward full adoption(33:15) Robin Vince’s culture-first, level-agnostic leadership style(34:27) Turning to AI: framing AI as an enabler, not the destination(35:53) Eliza, BNY’s AI hub: built in-house for safety, control, and scale(36:49) Onboarding & safety: 99% employee certification before use(38:45) Hackathons, bootcamps, and recognition to drive real adoption(40:07) What’s inside Eliza: chat, agent builder, governed access(40:28) People Team Agent: launch story, 17k unique users in month one(42:11) Host reaction to adoption stats; why this is notable(43:33) Bottom-up tactics: sandboxing, storytelling, shared language(44:12) Legal as early adopter; multi-touch education to reduce fear(45:56) From “Excel fluency” to “AI fluency” as the new baseline(46:48) Who builds agents? Personal vs. production; step-by-step path(47:47) Idea intake → AI hub prioritization → production digital employees(48:16) Host reflection: rethinking careers in financial services(49:50) Final big question: how to build an AI hub in HR(50:42) Shannon’s playbook: train, equip, dialog, and tie to culture & work redesign---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Luke O’Mahoney, Founder & Creator of Sapienˣ, joined The Modern People Leader.We talked about the three emerging models of product-led HR, Agile theater, and how an enterprise company phased its shift to product-led HR.---- Sponsor Links:🔗 Learn more about TopicFlow.🔗 Talk to the team at Ethena.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live Austin.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (06:23) Luke’s early career in RPO and connecting talent acquisition to business strategy(07:15) Transition into People Leadership and discovering Agile HR(08:48) Applying product and marketing frameworks to people and culture(09:54) Discovering a community around “PeopleOps as a Product” and founding SapientX(10:46) Stephen reflects on HR’s evolution from Ulrich’s model to Agile(12:37) Luke on why this iteration of Agile HR is sticking(13:18) How being “unburdened by legacy HR” enabled innovation(15:16) The shift from a procurement mindset to a product mindset in HR(17:28) The gateway to product-led PX and why accessibility matters(23:16) Luke explains the 3 models: HR as a Service, Programs as Products, and Work as the Product(25:43) What “work as the product” means in practice(26:50) How to determine which model fits your organization(28:17) Context and readiness: tailoring PX as a product to company culture and maturity(31:49) Luke defines “theater of Agile” and the danger of rituals without mindset(34:04) Why HR needs to focus on real problems, not just initiatives(35:25) Biggest blockers to real product-led transformation in HR(36:44) HR’s perfectionism problem and the courage to experiment(40:37) Why progress over perfection is key in PeopleOps innovation(41:15) Stephen’s cohort experience with Jessica Zwaan’s Built for People(44:15) Luke’s practical framework: solving employee problems and driving growth(46:13) Iterative experimentation and measuring impact through baselines(48:18) The need for playbooks and accessible frameworks(49:13) Luke’s recommended resources and open-source toolkits(51:00) Real-world examples: TomTom, Sastrify, and Build a Rocket Boy(52:42) How TomTom built a People Product Team within a large enterprise(55:10) Applying product-led HR even as a one-person team(58:04) Launching HR products creatively—Gamified benefits and internal “fake employee” campaigns(01:02:26) Why GTM mindset matters in HR launches(01:03:11) The ROI of joy and excitement in PeopleOps work(01:03:40) What HR leaders can expect on the other side of PX as a product(01:04:40) Earning the seat at the table through measurable business impact(01:06:52) Connecting people, process, and technology for business growth---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Darren Murph, a leading voice on distributed work and former leader at GitLab, Zillow, and Andela returned to the show.We dug into the remote first maturity scale, the four-pillar operating model (knowledge, project, self, performance), and how to build an “org brain.”---- Sponsor Links:🔗 Learn more about TopicFlow.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live Austin.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (04:42) Darren’s new chapter: going independent and why the timing was right(08:46) What’s changed since 2–3 years ago in remote/distributed work(09:13) Identity crisis in companies and the RTO narrative(11:09) The “operating system” of a company: where communication breaks(12:45) What ELTs are really discussing now(14:07) Under-the-radar topic: performance management as “fix the car, not just the driver”(16:40) AI readiness requires distributed-friendly systems (recording, documentation)(18:01) Remote-first maturity scale: where firms think they are vs. where they land(19:44) Knowledge management as the first pillar and the “org brain” concept(21:50) The four-pillar framework: knowledge → project → self → performance(24:13) “Gold in, gold out”: documentation and meeting capture fuel AI(26:00) Exemplars and ownership: Atlassian, GitLab, Doist; treating knowledge like a product(28:18) Tools and handbooks: Notion, public handbooks, getting started fast(30:13) MVP of an org brain and how functions build it out(34:34) Project management done right vs. 47 one-on-ones; insurance/IT ticketing analogies(37:47) Why this matters: time as compensation; segue to self-management(39:59) Team agreements and operating with flexibility(42:16) Measuring performance better: meetings, survey data, retention(46:19) Legacy reviews vs. modern, continuous performance practices (Juro example)(47:10) Organizational psychology: complexity theory and the pull back to “coherence”(54:03) Rapid-fire questions(58:43) Where to find Darren and work with him---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Brandon Weber, Co-founder & CEO of Nava Benefits, joined us on The Modern People Leader.We talked about why benefits have become the second-largest company expense — and how HR can “moneyball” their healthcare spend, cut down on benefits-related admin work, and deliver better employee outcomes through the emerging “alt marketplace.”---- Nava Links:🔗 Learn more about Nava.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live Austin.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (07:07) Brandon’s Founder Journey and 10-Month Sabbatical Spark(14:06) The Broker as Market Maker: Distribution Problem in Employer Healthcare(16:27) Why Benefits Are Strategic: From Cost Center to Business Lever(18:28) Benefits Jumped to #2 Company Expense and a Talent Magnet(20:53) HR Holds the Healthcare Purse Strings for Half of America(21:15) Being Strategic with a Small People Team(21:39) Explosion of Benefits Complexity (from ~6 to ~20 offerings)(26:47) Status-Quo “Stockholm Syndrome” and Breaking the Cycle(28:51) 2025 Renewal Pain Driving Change(31:02) Automating Benefits Admin(33:11) The “Alt Marketplace” of Health Plans, PBMs, and Point Solutions(33:39) Examples of "Alt Marketplace": Garner Health Network Design; Sidecar Health Price Transparency(40:58) Agentic Future: Auditing Carrier Bills and Auto-Remediation(42:18) Renewal Season AI: From Spreadsheet Chaos to Real-Time Scenario Modeling(43:16) Zapier Example: Benefits Help Desk and the Real Cost of Repeated Questions(45:06) Nava’s AI Strategy for HR: Support, Admin Automation, Smarter Spend(47:35) “Moneyball” Your Benefits Spend with Data Science(48:06) Why Brokers’ 20-Year Spreadsheets Fail HR and CFOs(51:05) Rapid Fire Questions---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.