C. Thi Nguyen on Why Measuring Everything Ruins Everything

Yascha Mounk and Adrian Wooldridge explore how liberalism reinvented itself through past crises—and what that means for its survival today. Adrian Wooldridge is the global business columnist for Bloomberg Opinion. He is the author or co-author of 12 books, including Centrists of the World Unite: The Lost Genius of Liberalism.  In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Adrian Wooldridge discuss how liberalism emerged as a solution to concrete historical problems, why the fundamental challenges liberalism addressed in the 17th and 18th centuries have returned in new forms today, and what lessons the origins of liberalism offer for defending it against contemporary threats. We’re delighted to feature this conversation as part of our series on Liberal Virtues and Values. That liberalism is under threat is now a cliché—yet this has done nothing to stem the global resurgence of illiberalism. Part of the problem is that liberalism is often considered too “thin” to win over the allegiance of citizens, and that liberals are too afraid of speaking in moral terms. Liberalism’s opponents, by contrast, speak to people’s passions and deepest moral sentiments. This series, made possible with the generous support of the John Templeton Foundation, aims to change that narrative. In podcast conversations and long-form pieces, we feature content making the case that liberalism has its own distinctive set of virtues and values that are capable not only of responding to the dissatisfaction that drives authoritarianism, but also of restoring faith in liberalism as an ideology worth believing in—and defending—on its own terms. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following ⁠this link on your phone⁠. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! ⁠Spotify⁠ | ⁠Apple⁠ | ⁠Google⁠ X: ⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠ & ⁠@JoinPersuasion⁠ YouTube: ⁠Yascha Mounk⁠, ⁠Persuasion⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and Klaus Schwab discuss truth, trust, and accountability—until he abruptly ended the interview. In January, I received an email from Klaus Schwab about a new book he had just published, called Restoring Truth and Trust. It was, he told me, “part of my broader series aimed at helping a global audience understand and respond to the profound changes shaping our societies, economies, and institutions.” I decided to invite Schwab onto my podcast. In his role at Davos, he had helped to shape, or at least to midwife, the global order which is now suffering an unprecedented crisis. Given the themes of his book, he seemed open to a genuinely searching conversation about which elements of this order were worth preserving, which others in need of jettisoning—and what responsibility the elites he knew so well might have for our current travails. I was greatly looking forward to the conversation, and approached it the way I do most of my podcasts: I was determined both to give Schwab an opportunity to present his ideas in the most compelling possible way, and to interrogate them critically. A few questions in, it became clear that the conversation was not going well. Whenever I mildly pushed back at some point he was making, Schwab looked visibly annoyed. After about twenty minutes, he suddenly broke off the conversation, saying that he had a migraine. After giving Schwab time to recover, a member of his team stepped in and requested that we reschedule the conversation, which we were happy to do in the circumstances. Naturally, we gave Schwab’s team many opportunities to resume the conversation. We offered numerous options for when we could record the rest of the conversation, and invited them to suggest a time that would work for him. But after a few back-and-forth exchanges, it became clear that his team had no real interest in doing so. Eventually, they openly admitted as much, writing that “Professor Schwab has decided that he does not wish to continue with the podcast.” They also asked us multiple times not to release the part of the conversation we did record. Some podcasters consider it a kind of trophy when a public figure like Schwab walks out of an interview because he does not like the line of questioning. I don’t. The point of my podcast is to facilitate genuine conversations across ideological differences. In the 437 episodes I have recorded so far, I have sometimes experienced moments of genuine tension, and perhaps occasional flashes of hostility; but not a single guest has ever walked out of a previous recording. Given the nature of my questions, I must admit to being even more bewildered by this turn of events. Schwab has for decades been in one of the most influential positions in the international firmament of power and influence. None of the questions I asked were posed in the spirit of a gotcha question. Are some of the most powerful people in the world really that allergic to basic intellectual scrutiny? But don’t take my word for it. Instead, listen for yourself. —Yascha Klaus Schwab is the founder and former Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum. His latest book is Restoring Truth and Trust. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Klaus Schwab discuss whether the principles underlying global cooperation can survive today’s political upheaval, how democratic institutions can respond to rising populist movements without appearing tone-deaf to voters’ legitimate grievances, and what stakeholder capitalism means in practical terms for corporate decision-making. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following this link on your phone. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and Dean Ball examine how the fight over autonomous weapons and mass surveillance reveals the impossible choices facing American AI policy. Dean W. Ball served as Senior Policy Advisor at the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, where he was the primary staff drafter of America’s AI Action Plan. He writes the AI-focused newsletter Hyperdimensional. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Dean Ball discuss the clash between Anthropic and the Department of War over AI usage restrictions, why mass domestic surveillance capabilities make AI governance so challenging, and how to regulate transformative technologies under conditions of radical uncertainty. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following ⁠this link on your phone⁠. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! ⁠Spotify⁠ | ⁠Apple⁠ | ⁠Google⁠ X: ⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠ & ⁠@JoinPersuasion⁠ YouTube: ⁠Yascha Mounk⁠, ⁠Persuasion⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Francis Fukuyama is the Olivier Nomellini Senior Fellow at Stanford University. His latest book is Liberalism and Its Discontents. He is also the author of the “Frankly Fukuyama” column, carried forward from American Purpose, at Persuasion. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Francis Fukuyama discuss whether the unprecedented strikes on Iran will lead to the downfall of the mullahs, whether America can avoid getting drawn into a Middle Eastern quagmire, and whether the midterms will turn Donald Trump into a lame duck. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following this link on your phone. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and Danielle Allen discuss democratic backsliding. Danielle Allen is the James Bryant Conant University Professor at Harvard University. She is also Director of the Allen Lab for Democracy Renovation at the Harvard Kennedy School and Director of the Democratic Knowledge Project, a research lab focused on civic education at the Harvard Graduate School of Education.  In this week's conversation, Yascha Mounk and Danielle Allen discuss why the liberal worldview of the 1990s and 2000s has collapsed, how "power-sharing liberalism" can address the failures of technocratic governance, and whether participatory democracy risks empowering the professional managerial class at the expense of ordinary citizens. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following ⁠this link on your phone⁠. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Jack Shields and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! ⁠Spotify⁠ | ⁠Apple⁠ | ⁠Google⁠ X: ⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠ & ⁠@JoinPersuasion⁠ YouTube: ⁠Yascha Mounk⁠, ⁠Persuasion⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Janice Gross Stein is the Belzberg Professor of Conflict Management and Founding Director of the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy at the University of Toronto. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Janice Stein discuss whether rational choice theory has led us astray in understanding political behavior, why voters have lost interest in nuclear deterrence, and why cooperation, not rationality, is important in global politics. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following this link on your phone. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk, Bethany Allen, Pratap Bhanu Mehta, and Chang Che examine how Asia is preparing for a more dangerous world. In this week’s episode of The Good Fight Club, Yascha Mounk, Bethany Allen, Pratap Bhanu Mehta, and Chang Che examine the stunning electoral victory of Japan’s new prime minister Sanae Takaichi, China’s coercion tactics and how they’re backfiring across Asia, and what the rise of “authentic outsiders” tells us about the current moment in global democracy.  Bethany Allen is a journalist based in Taiwan and the author of Beijing Rules: How China Weaponized Its Economy to Confront the World. Pratap Bhanu Mehta is a Senior Fellow at the Centre for Policy Research and a Visiting Professor at Princeton University.  Chang Che is a nonfiction writer and journalist covering China, and a contributor to The New Yorker and The Guardian. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following ⁠this link on your phone⁠. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Jack Shields and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! ⁠Spotify⁠ | ⁠Apple⁠ | ⁠Google⁠ X: ⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠ & ⁠@JoinPersuasion⁠ YouTube: ⁠Yascha Mounk⁠, ⁠Persuasion⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠Persuasion Community⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jacob Savage is a writer and ticket scalper. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Jacob Savage discuss whether the “Great Awokening” had lasting material effects beyond culture, how diversity initiatives changed hiring patterns in academia and Hollywood, and why these changes primarily affected one generation of white men rather than older cohorts already established in their careers. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following this link on your phone. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and Daniel Diermeier examine how elite institutions created the backlash that now threatens their future. Daniel Diermeier is Chancellor of Vanderbilt University, where he has served since 2020.  In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Daniel Diermeier discuss why American universities are simultaneously world-leading and losing public trust, whether elite higher education creates dangerous separation between the professional class and ordinary Americans, and how the shift from regional to national universities has reshaped American society.  Polarization is at an all-time high. It can feel daunting—perhaps even misguided—to engage in meaningful dialogue with those holding starkly different views. What does it mean to champion pluralism in such a moment? Persuasion’s new series on the future of pluralism, generously supported by the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, features essays and podcast interviews that make the case for civic dialogue and highlight inspiring examples of it in practice. You can find past installments here. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following ⁠⁠⁠this link on your phone⁠⁠⁠. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Jack Shields and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! ⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠Apple⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠Google⁠⁠⁠ X: ⁠⁠⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠⁠⁠ & ⁠⁠⁠@JoinPersuasion⁠⁠⁠ YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠Yascha Mounk⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠Persuasion⁠⁠⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠Persuasion Community⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

C. Thi Nguyen is a philosophy professor at the University of Utah. His latest book is The Score: How to Stop Playing Someone Else’s Game. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Thi Nguyen discuss why metrics both help and harm institutional decision-making, how game design principles can improve classroom learning, and whether some aspects of human life are inherently unmeasurable. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following this link on your phone. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices