EP494: Six Tensions of Pharmaceutical Drug Pricing, With Sarah Emond

In episode 495 titled 'Wait. Flip that. A Crazy Revelation I Had About Trying to Fix US Healthcare,' host Stacey Richter speaks with Dr. Mick Connors, an emergency room pediatrician and healthcare entrepreneur, about a groundbreaking insight into the US healthcare system.  They discuss the paramount need to flip the way healthcare costs and outcomes are measured: moving towards unit-level cost accounting and whole-patient or whole-community outcomes assessment. The episode delves into the fundamental pitfalls of the current healthcare structure, emphasizing the misalignment between cost aggregation and patient-level outcome measurements. They explore the challenges faced by physicians in the current system, the role of investor mindsets, and the importance of dyad leadership and mission-driven practices to improve overall healthcare value. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links:   https://cc-lnk.com/EP495 🔗  Visit this week's sponsor Payerset:   https://payerset.com ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls= 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth 06:32 How Dr. Mick Connors defines margin. 08:18 EP294 with Steve Schutzer, MD. 08:54 Why nobody wants to do cost accounting in healthcare. 09:20 EP490 with Shane Cerone and Sam Flanders, MD. 11:05 Infographic by Andrew Tsang showing streams of income. 12:27 What is the value equation? 15:55 EP404 with Suhas Gondi, MD, MBA. 15:59 EP466 with Vivian Ho, PhD. 16:01 EP482 with Preston Alexander. 16:25 EP474 with Yashaswini Singh, PhD. 17:44 How business decisions can really undermine the value proposition. 18:58 Classic article on incentivizing. 23:07 EP295 with Rebecca Etz, PhD. 24:21 Why it comes down to the 80/20 rule. 26:31 EP445 with Tom X. Lee, MD. 26:35 EP460 with Rushika Fernandopulle, MD. 26:40 Why mission return requires dyad leadership. 27:13 What does dyad leadership mean? 27:33 EP492 with Sam Flanders, MD, and Shane Cerone.  

In Episode 494 of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter engages in a detailed discussion with Sarah Emond, CEO of ICER, about the intricate dynamics of pharmaceutical drug pricing. They explore six primary tensions within the current system, including the fair valuation of drugs, the misalignment between drug prices and patient affordability, the disconnect between lifetime drug value and short-term insurance assessments, and the challenge of integrating societal and individual perceptions of value.  Emond and Richter also discuss potential solutions, emphasizing the need for value-based pricing models free from financial conflicts of interest. They highlight the critical role of payers, PBMs, and drug manufacturers in aligning pricing with value to improve patient access and reduce overall healthcare costs. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links:   https://cc-lnk.com/EP494 🔗  Visit our sponsor Payerset   https://payerset.com ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 08:18 Why list prices are a lie. 10:59 How does the rebate model sometimes get in the way of paying for value? 12:50 Bonus clip with Sarah Emond. 13:14 EP491 with Elizabeth Mitchell. 13:20 EP490 and EP492 with Shane Cerone and Sam Flanders, MD. 14:37 The tension that is created between affordability and adherence. 15:03 When cost sharing makes sense in pharmaceutical drug pricing. 17:26 INBW42 with Stacey on moral hazard. 18:53 How GLP-1s are "wildly cost effective." 21:32 Why the sticker shock on cost-effective drugs is a failure in the system for paying for value. 22:38 ICER's report on GLP-1s. 26:59 EP385 with Dan Mendelson. 28:57 How employers and payers can have a value assessment approach and a health insurance system that allows access to cost-effective drugs. 29:48 How cost-effective prices are calculated. 31:55 One of the core value underpinnings for value assessment of drugs. 34:54 Why manufacturers and pharmacy benefit managers should work together more by referencing something like an ICER report. 36:55 EP426 with Nina Lathia, RPh, MSc, PhD. 38:21 "We can make different choices."

In this bonus episode of 'Relentlessly Seeking Value,' host Stacey Richter engages in a conversation with Sarah Emond, CEO of the Institute for Clinical and Economic Review (ICER). They discuss the complex 'arms race' of pharmaceutical pricing in the current healthcare system, emphasizing issues like inflated drug list prices, patient affordability, and cost-effectiveness.  They highlight ICER's role in conducting value assessments of prescription drugs to ensure fair pricing and improve affordability and access. The episode underscores the need for multi-stakeholder dialogues to deescalate financial tensions and promote value-based healthcare choices. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links:   https://cc-lnk.com/EP494-BonusClip 🔗  Visit our sponsor Payerset:   https://payerset.com ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 06:51 EP293 ("Game Theory Gone Wild") with Dea Belazi, PharmD, MPH. 02:38 What is ICER? 02:54 What does the Institute for Clinical and Economic Review do? 05:14 The importance of still showing up, even when others don't understand or disagree. 09:12 Why it's important to think about population health and how our choices impact affordability for everyone.

In this special Thanksgiving episode of Relentless Healthcare Value, the focus is on gratitude and giving thanks to various contributors within the healthcare community. Host Stacey Richter extends her 'baskets of thank yous' to colleagues, mentors, and partners committed to transforming healthcare.  These baskets recognize those who maintain respectful dialogues despite small disagreements, those who collaborate and pay it forward within the community, and those who support the concept of a 'demand curve' in healthcare markets.  === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links:   https://cc-lnk.com/INBW43 ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 01:25 First thank you: to those who do not succumb to healthcare narcissism. 01:36 INBW39 with Stacey. 02:51 INBW37 with Stacey. 03:00 EP399 and EP400 with Stacey. 05:40 Second thank you: to those willing to pay it forward. 05:53 EP489 with Dan Greenleaf. 08:12 EP452 with Cora Opsahl. 08:38 Third thank you: to those who aid the demand curve in healthcare. 09:14 EP490 with Shane Cerone and Sam Flanders, MD. 09:16 EP491 with Elizabeth Mitchell. 09:17 EP492 with Sam Flanders, MD, and Shane Cerone. 09:49 Why healthcare needs a demand curve. 13:34 Fourth thank you: to those who have contributed financial support to the Relentless Health Value podcast. 15:47 The final thank you: to the listeners.

This OG of directly contracted high-value networks or Centers of Excellence networks came up, name dropped and everything in the episode with Elizabeth Mitchell from PBGH, the Purchaser Business Group on Health, from two weeks ago. That was episode 491. So, welcome to this deep cut episode with Olivia Ross from way back, pre-pandemic times. This episode of Relentless Health Value revisits the concept of directly contracted high value networks or Centers of Excellence (ECEN) with Olivia Ross. The discussion explores the impact and potential of the ECEN network, emphasizing the importance of quality, price transparency, and multidisciplinary approaches in healthcare.  Olivia delves into the reasons why ECEN was significant in past PBGH projects and its current relevance, despite its eventual dismantling due to corporate changes. The episode highlights the benefits for employers in creating their own high-value networks and the positive outcomes from fewer unnecessary surgeries and better quality care. Additionally, it covers the rigorous process of selecting Centers of Excellence and how continuous quality improvement efforts benefit both employers and healthcare providers. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links:   https://cc-lnk.com/Take2-EP240 ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 07:40 Prospective bundles and the cost of care. 08:22 How the largest cost savings come from the improvements in quality. 09:51 What Olivia looks for in choosing centers of excellence. 10:36 Creating market pressure and avoiding consolidation. 11:17 Creating positive disruption in the healthcare system. 12:17 How Olivia chooses the centers and providers she works with in the Purchaser Business Group on Health. 13:12 The quality metrics Purchaser Business Group on Health looks at when assessing providers and centers. 14:04 What a team assessment is, and why it's important. 15:07 How local PCPs have to factor into this health care model. 17:57 How Purchaser Business Group on Health intervenes in the patient journey to ensure that the patient and the employer are getting the best quality care for the best price. 19:39 Olivia's suggestions on how to have an intervening conversation with a patient who has already been told he or she needs surgery. 20:18 EP468 with Matt McQuide. 20:20 EP471 with Christine Hale, MD, MBA. 20:22 EP472 with Eric Bricker, MD. 25:27 "Even at a more competitive price point, there's still an upside to them getting this new business." 25:52 How choosing specific physicians is part of the COE designation process. 27:35 How COEs and their physicians are also involved in continuous quality improvement. 30:56 Employers Centers of Excellence Network collaboration with The Leapfrog Group. 32:24 How the Employers Centers of Excellence Network program is open to any employer, no matter the size. 32:54 What it takes to join the Employers Centers of Excellence Network.  

In Episode 493 of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter engages in an enlightening discussion with John Quinn, CEO of Wellnecity, about the current revelations and challenges employer CEOs are facing within the healthcare market. Stacey explores whether average employer C-suites are recognizing the fundamental myth that a functioning healthcare market exists.  The conversation dives into how self-insured employers are substantially the demand side of the healthcare market and why their lack of insistence on a true market exacerbates high prices. John Quinn shares insights on why C-suites and boards are now more attuned to healthcare spending, emphasizing the need for real-time, correct data and comprehensive vendor accountability.  A significant takeaway is the shift from viewing health benefits management as a one-time annual task to adopting a continuous, year-long strategic approach. Finally, the episode delves into actionable steps for employers to manage healthcare costs more effectively without compromising employee health, urging them to move beyond traditional cost-shifting tactics. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links:   https://cc-lnk.com/EP493 🔗  Visit our Sponsor Wellnicity https://wellnecity.com/:   ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 07:06 Why CEOs are looking more closely at healthcare spend. 08:06 EP397 with Paul Holmes. 08:21 How savings and health benefits are directly connected. 10:45 EP436 with Elizabeth Mitchell. 11:46 What missed earnings look like in relation to healthcare. 14:27 How costs have been shifting to employees for years, and why this doesn't work anymore. 17:36 EP475 with Peter Hayes. 18:23 What employers need to do instead of cost shift. 19:12 EP406 with Lauren Vela. 21:30 Why it's important to make health benefit changes at the speed of business, not at the speed of the benefits year. 26:17 Why is it important to put a finance function into your benefits? 27:10 EP488 with Mark Cuban and Cora Opsahl. 27:33 EP478 (Part 1) with Andreas Mang and Jon Camire. 27:35 Why daily data matters. 31:10 EP487 (Part 1) with Kevin Lyons. 31:21 Why it's important to hold vendors accountable. 31:47 Why it's important to move on from vendors who can't hold up to your scrutiny and needs. 33:46 EP472 with Eric Bricker, MD. 34:46 EP471 with Christine Hale, MD, MBA.

In this episode, host Stacey Richter speaks with Dr. Sam Flanders and Shane Cerone about creating a high-quality hospital management model focused on surviving at 150% of Medicare costs. They discuss the inefficiencies in health systems and practical solutions to improve them without compromising quality.  The conversation covers the importance of empowering frontline staff, adopting continuous improvement models like Toyota's, and the critical role of employers in reshaping market dynamics through direct negotiation and price transparency. The episode emphasizes actionable steps for hospital executives, plan sponsors, and employers to drive significant improvements in healthcare efficiency and affordability. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links:   https://cc-lnk.com/EP492 ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 07:08 What are the many problems that health systems deal with? 08:44 EP483 (Part 1 and Part 2) with Jonathan Baran. 09:43 What was the real achievement in building this hospital system? 10:25 EP489 (Part 1 and Part 2) with Dan Greenleaf. 10:42 Why productivity and patient access are the top two things to focus on. 11:36 EP488 with Mark Cuban and Cora Opsahl. 12:32 EP455 with Beau Raymond, MD. 12:58 The lean model versus the Toyota model. 16:06 EP438 with John Lee, MD. 16:40 EP481 with Benjamin Schwartz, MD, MBA. 17:44 Why small changes accumulated create greater change than big changes. 21:01 How an efficiency mindset can increase improvement faster. 27:42 Why administrators should not be negotiators. 28:11 EP491 with Elizabeth Mitchell. 29:06 What are the steps to this multifaceted process? 30:17 EP286 with John Rodis, MD, MBA. 30:48 Study by Suhas Gondi, MD, MBA, on hospital boards. 33:03 Why it's important to focus on the pricing issue first. 33:49 What Kada Health is all about.

In Episode 491, Stacey Richter interviews Elizabeth Mitchell, CEO of the Purchaser's Business Group on Health (PBGH), about the PBGH Transparency Demonstration Project.  They discuss the project's aim to provide jumbo self-insured employers with transparency in healthcare costs, quality, and safety data. Collaborating with Milliman and Embold and funded by the Peterson Center on Healthcare, PBGH's project reveals no correlation between higher prices and quality in healthcare services.  The episode highlights the impacts on TPAs, consultants, and clinical organizations, and underscores the importance of employers using this new transparency data for strategic advantage and compliance with the Consolidated Appropriations Act. Richter and Mitchell delve into the broader implications for creating high-value networks and fostering market competition based on quality and affordability. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links:   https://cc-lnk.com/EP491 ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/   06:35 How did PBGH's transparency project start? 07:35 EP428 with Julie Selesnick. 07:37 EP408 with Chris Deacon. 07:39 Why the changes to the CAA and ERISA meant heightened risk for employers and individuals within companies. 09:09 "You can't outsource the risk." 11:10 How PBGH's transparency project demonstrated some clients being noncompliant. 12:52 Why is it irresponsible not to use the data presented if you're a self-insured employer? 15:06 How did PBGH use the transparency data and apply it effectively to improve their offerings and business? 18:37 Why TPAs should not negotiate contracts. 19:17 EP485 with Cristin Dickerson, MD. 19:22 EP486 with Stan Schwartz, MD. 19:24 EP488 with Mark Cuban and Cora Opsahl. 20:58 "There is no good price for unsafe care." 21:36 How PBGH found using the transparency data to be totally feasible. 25:03 EP483 (Part 1) with Jonathan Baran. 25:32 Why the market will evolve with this data. 28:04 EP369 with Keith Hartman, RPh. 28:06 EP370 with Erik Davis and Autumn Yongchu. 28:34 What PBGH discovered about high-value centers and centers of excellence. 28:59 EP240 with Olivia Ross. 32:26 Why incentives are another challenge. 33:49 Why this is good news for unconflicted benefits consultants. 36:04 EP487 (Part 1) with Kevin Lyons. 39:48 Why transparency is going to become the new normal. 40:22 The Innovator's Dilemma by Clayton M. Christensen. 42:14 EP436 with Elizabeth Mitchell. 44:07 EP286 with John Rodis, MD, MBA. 45:22 Why there is a great incentive to be a great clinician right now. 46:18 How this information can motivate competition in the right place. 46:52 EP490 (Part 1) with Shane Cerone and Sam Flanders, MD.

In this episode of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter speaks with Shane Cerone and Dr. Sam Flanders of Kada Health about three pervasive myths in the healthcare industry. They discuss the belief in a functioning healthcare market, the necessity of high prices for hospital survival, and the notion that reducing prices means lower quality care. Highlighting the inefficiencies and lack of competition in the current system, they address the importance of transparency and competition. This episode sets the stage for a follow-up discussion focusing on tangible solutions and improvements for the healthcare system. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links:   https://cc-lnk.com/EP490-Part1 ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 09:28 EP466 with Vivian Ho, PhD. 09:31 EP486 with Stan Schwartz, MD. 09:42 EP488 with Mark Cuban and Cora Opsahl. 10:08 Why we need to focus on prices in healthcare. 11:50 The first myth that holds change back: the healthcare "market." 15:04 EP286 with John Rodis, MD, MBA. 15:51 The reality behind why there is no functional market in healthcare. 17:11 Why price simplicity is so important. 19:15 EP472 with Eric Bricker, MD. 19:31 How there is pricing failure while hospitals are still facing razor-thin margins. 22:11 The second myth: Can a hospital survive on Medicare rates alone? 25:21 What is the best hospitals can achieve? 26:01 List of hospitals recognized as national leaders for care quality and affordability. 29:23 The third myth: When you lower prices, do you get lower quality? 33:11 Why a decentralized approach at improvement is the way to lower cost and raise quality.

In Episode 489 Part 2 of 'Relentlessly Seeking Value,' Stacey Richter continues the series on 'Mission Margin' by focusing on the financial sustainability aspect with guest Dan Greenleaf, CEO of Duly, a multi-specialty group. The episode dives into the balance between maintaining mission-driven healthcare, which includes affordability, accessibility, and quality, and achieving financial margins.  Dan discusses practical strategies like reducing network leakage, negotiating effectively with payers, and leveraging technologies to lower operational costs. The conversation also highlights the significance of clinician involvement in leadership and the value of having aligned incentives across the organization.  Additionally, the episode addresses the role of capital partners in sustaining such healthcare models and ensuring they are effective and sustainable. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links:   https://cc-lnk.com/EP489-Part2 ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/. 09:56 How does Dan achieve his mission given the realities of margin? 14:49 How Duly Health's approach and incentives differ from other health systems. 16:04 EP466 with Vivian Ho, PhD. 16:28 EP462 with Scott Conard, MD. 16:31 Summer Shorts episode with Stan Schwartz, MD. 17:27 EP460 with Rushika Fernandopulle, MD. 17:29 EP445 with Tom X. Lee, MD. 17:30 EP407 with Vivek Garg, MD, MBA. 18:50 How having physicians on the hospital board greatly improves margin and mission. 20:04 How Dan explains his approach to his capital partners. 22:23 Fee for service vs. institutional care.