EP481: Seriously, IRL, What Does “No Margin, No Mission” Even Mean? With Benjamin Schwartz, MD, MBA

Balancing Mission and Margin in Healthcare: A Candid Conversation with Dr. Ben Schwartz In this episode, host Stacey Richter engages in a deep dive with Dr. Ben Schwartz to explore the phrase 'No Margin, No Mission' and its practical implications in the healthcare industry.  They discuss the complex relationship between profitability and mission-driven care, the challenges of value-based care, and the role of dyad leadership. The episode emphasizes the importance of transparency, regulatory measures, and trust in fostering a balance between mission and margin. Along the way, Dr. Schwartz shares insights from his new role at Commons Clinic and addresses broader systemic issues like regulatory capture and the subjective nature of defining value in healthcare. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links:   https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/episodes ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 08:50 Sister Irene Kraus and the origin of no margin, no mission. 10:01 Margin and mission versus profit and profiteering. 12:45 Stacey’s manifesto (EP400). 13:01 What is the broad mission within healthcare? 14:12 What is mission drift within healthcare? 15:54 EP474 with Yashaswini Singh, PhD. 17:26 Why do we struggle with balancing margin and mission? 20:47 EP455 with Beau Raymond, MD. 20:52 How does value vary? 23:18 EP326 with Rishi Wadhera, MD, MPP. 23:53 What needs to happen to balance margin with mission? 28:29 Why does everything come down to trust? 28:33 EP391 with Scott Conard, MD. 30:30 EP419 with Andreas Mang. 32:21 What are the “vectors of change” to create balance between mission and margin? 32:43 EP475 with Peter Hayes.

In this Take Two episode of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter reflects on her conversation with Dr. John Lee to explore the challenging intersection between mission and margin in healthcare.  They discuss the nuances of cognitive dissonance faced by healthcare professionals, particularly when organizational priorities conflict with patient care. Dr. Lee shares insights on finding a sense of mission within the constraints of the current healthcare system, emphasizing the importance of incremental improvements, team-based care, and peer support.  The conversation also highlights real-world examples of systemic issues and practical advice on how individuals can contribute to meaningful change without feeling demoralized. This episode is part of an ongoing series addressing critical topics in healthcare, and listeners are encouraged to tune in next week for further discussions. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links:   https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/episodes ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/   08:05 What is cognitive dissonance relative to the healthcare industry? 09:23 What are the systems that start to bear down on individuals within the healthcare system? 10:15 EP391 with Scott Conard, MD. 10:53 EP415 with Rob Andrews. 11:50 EP326 with Rishi Wadhera, MD, MPP. 12:27 “The system has almost gamed them.” 15:44 How can alignment still be achieved in the face of cognitive dissonance? 17:12 EP431 with Kenny Cole, MD. 20:43 Why does it take more than one person to solve the dysfunction in the healthcare system? 23:01 What are some little changes that can help change the cognitive dissonance in healthcare? 24:57 Why is a hierarchical healthcare structure not necessarily beneficial? 27:12 The RaDonda Vaught story. 34:30 “Be happy in the small things.”

Enhancing Payment Integrity in Health Systems: An In-depth Discussion with Kimberly Carleson. In Episode 481 of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter speaks with Kimberly Carleson, CEO of US Beacon, about payment integrity within health systems. They delve into strategies some hospitals use to maximize revenue without raising rates and discuss the importance of accurate billing.  Key takeaways include the high prevalence of billing errors, which can lead to significant overcharges for plan sponsors, often due to documentation gaps and complex coding systems. Kimberly provides actionable advice for both healthcare providers and plan sponsors on how to mitigate billing inaccuracies and enhance transparency.  Emphasized points include the necessity of third-party claim audits, understanding legal rights under various acts, and the importance of maintaining clear communication and compliance with legal billing standards. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links:   https://cc-lnk.com/EP480 ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 08:36 What’s the magnitude of the lack of payment integrity within healthcare? 12:11 EP285 with Dawn Cornelis. 12:46 How is lack of coordination a main culprit of lack of payment integrity? 13:42 How does reading the records reveal whether health plans are being overcharged? 15:43 A real-world example of how reviewing the charges can drastically reduce your healthcare costs. 18:32 Do you have a right to a review of your claim? 19:37 EP370 with Erik Davis and Autumn Yongchu. 22:08 How can contracts contradict what can legally be charged? 23:46 EP472 with Eric Bricker, MD. 25:04 How can hospitals update their billing to have better payment integrity? 28:44 Advice for hospital executives and their finance teams. 29:03 Advice for plan sponsors.  

Exploring the Complexities of Pharma Rebates with Ann Lewandowski In this Summer Short episode of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter converses again with Ann Lewandowski about the intricate dynamics of pharmaceutical rebates, or as Lewandowski prefers, post-sale concessions.  The discussion delves into the nuances of these rebates, the impact they have on drug costs, and the hidden consequences for patients and plan sponsors.  They highlight articles and insights by Austin Chelko and Peter Hayes, touching on how rebates can disadvantage the pursuit of lower-cost generics and biosimilars, and can obstruct pharmacogenetic testing that ensures drug efficacy and safety.  The conversation also critiques the opacity of rebates, deemed trade secrets by pharma and PBM companies, and underscores the ethical and financial dilemmas posed by the current rebate-driven system. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links:   https://cc-lnk.com/EP480 ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 07:24 What is a pharmaceutical rebate? 08:15 Why are pharma rebates so opaque? 09:52 Texas lawsuit on insulin pricing. 10:18 Why is focusing on a singular type of concession difficult with current pharma rebate structures? 10:50 EP397 with Paul Holmes. 13:55 EP353 with Pramod John, PhD. 14:29 How does pharma genomics testing affect pharma rebates? 14:52 EP465 with Chris Crawford. 15:52 EP426 with Nina Lathia, RPh, MSc, PhD.

In this second discussion with Andreas Mang and Jon Camire of Blackstone, Stacey Richter has  an advanced discussion on the intricacies of stop-loss reinsurance for high-cost claimants.  This show today, for sure, it’s for plan sponsors and anyone on or about plan sponsors; but also listen if you are serving high-cost claimants some other way. Because what you’ll learn here today is some insights relative to how plan sponsors go about making sure that they can pay you—like if you work for, for example, some clinical organization. There’s a, I don’t know, 101 starting point of this conversation if you need it on stop-loss, which is episode 478 from a couple of weeks ago. This show is the, let’s say, 201-level conversation that I’m having with Andreas Mang and Jon Camire about, as I said, stop-loss insurance and stop-loss insurance considerations. Emphasizing the importance of eligibility audits and aggregating buying power, the guests highlight best practices to avoid overpaying for coverage and ensuring comprehensive risk management. This episode is sponsored by Havarti Risk, which I am so thankful for. The show, Relentless Health Value, actually does cost an unexpectedly large sum of money to create and produce; so I always appreciate when somebody offers to sponsor a show or help sponsor a show. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP479   ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe   🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe   🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1   🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b   📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue   === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/   07:47 What are the best practices for plan sponsors to use for stop-loss coverage? 10:11 What are the “unknown unknowns” within stop-loss coverage? 15:25 What are some policy provisions that plan sponsors should be aware of? 19:02 Why is it so important to do eligibility audits? 20:41 What are some common mistakes made with stop-loss coverage among the self-insured? 23:21 What’s a panel approach, and why is it important for negotiating stop-loss coverage?

Stacey Richter has a second take on the original episode 433 since it is so relevant right now. Stacey engages in a compelling conversation with Justin Leader, CEO of BenefitsDNA, about the opaque practices of third-party administrators (TPAs) and their impact on healthcare costs.  They discuss the hidden fees tucked into weekly claims wires, including shared savings fees, prior authorization fees, prepayment integrity fees, pay and chase fees, and TPA adjudication fees.  The episode emphasizes the need for transparency, understanding hidden costs, and ensuring fiduciary responsibility for self-funded employers. Additionally, Leader shares insights from a Health Affairs article and mentions ongoing legal cases that highlight the financial discrepancies in TPA practices. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links:   https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/episodes ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 06:32 EP457 with Cynthia Fisher. 06:56 How is the claims wire typically explained to a plan sponsor? 10:49 What is the whole point of self-funding? 10:58 Why is it so vital to understand what you’re paying for? 11:53 What are the five “buried” items that wind up in these claims wires? 12:12 What is a shared savings fee? 16:14 “Rates are important, but so are your rights.” 20:13 What’s going on with prior auth fees? 22:44 What is prepayment integrity? 27:29 What is pay and chase? 28:46 EP428 with Julie Selesnick. 30:58 What is a TPA claim review? 33:21 EP285 with Dawn Cornelis. 34:16 EP379 with AJ Loiacono. 34:45 Is there medical claim spread pricing?

Host Stacey Richter discusses the intricacies of stop-loss coverage with Andreas Mang and Jon Camire from Blackstone. The episode focuses on defining stop-loss insurance and exploring its critical role in protecting self-insured employers from catastrophic financial losses.  The conversation delves into the nuances of individual and aggregate stop-loss policies, laser claims, and the importance of selecting an experienced consultant to navigate this complex landscape. The episode is essential listening for those managing high-cost claimants and exploring self-insurance options. This is a two part show. The second show will cover major fails, mistakes that happen with stop-loss when somebody doesn’t understand or do everything that we talk about. So, tune back in for the next part of this conversation, in two weeks. Thank you to Havarti Risk for sponsoring this weeks episode.  Havarti Risk empowers healthcare leaders like you to make smarter decisions that increase quality and lower cost of care. https://havarti-risk.com/ === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links:   https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/episodes ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 07:24 What is stop-loss? 08:27 What is reinsurance? 09:57 EP420 with Ge Bai, PhD, CPA. 10:10 Why has stop-loss been a barrier for smaller companies going self-insured? 13:55 Why self-insurance needs to be a joint decision between finance and HR. 15:38 What is aggregate versus individual within stop-loss? 19:51 Why is it important for companies to choose the right level of stop-loss coverage? 21:29 What is a laser claim? 29:28 Why is it important to know what your brokers are getting paid on your stop-loss policies?  

In this episode, Stacey Richter explores the impact of trust on healthcare outcomes, drawing from listener contributions and prior episodes of Relentless Health Value. The discussion underscores how trust or the lack thereof affects patients, clinicians, and healthcare systems. Key points include the importance of building trusted relationships, the detrimental effects of antitrust behaviors, and the broader implications for healthcare delivery. Stacey also highlights a bonus show featuring Charles Green on earning and maintaining trust. The episode concludes with an uplifting message about the collaborative and giving nature of the Relentless Health Value community. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP477 🔗  Bonus Show - Show Notes https://cc-lnk.com/Bonus477:  ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/   00:47 What is the new, emerging through line becoming apparent in healthcare? 01:54 Bonus Episode with Charles Green. 02:52 What is the impact of trust in healthcare? 02:55 EP475 with Peter Hayes. 03:11 EP473 with Kenny Cole, MD. 05:31 EP295 with Rebecca Etz, PhD. 06:07 EP326 with Rishi Wadhera, MD, MPP. 07:06 Why does trust grow through proximity, and why do providers need to integrate this into care models? 07:59 Why antitrust is so prevalent in healthcare. 10:00 What are two main contributors to the lack of primary care doctors? 13:27 Why collaboration builds trust.

In this bonus add-on to episode 477 of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter revisits a decade-old conversation with trust expert Charles Green, founder of Trusted Advisor Associates. Green discusses the intricacies of building and maintaining trust in healthcare, emphasizing four key trust principles: client focus, collaboration, long-term relationships, and transparency. The discussion highlights the challenges within the healthcare industry, compounded by conflicts of interest and transactional dynamics. Green underscores the importance of individual actions and leadership in fostering trust, advocating for empathetic listening and genuine curiosity about others as foundational behaviors. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/episodes ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcastshttps://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel  https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 01:45 Four trust principles that can help you earn your clients trust and come off as more trustworthy from first impressions onward. 04:31 Charles’s words of wisdom for rebuilding lost trust. 05:46 Where does trusted leadership start? 06:38 Why trust in leadership is about embodying trust in actions, not words. 07:26 Why does personality have an outsized impact in leadership and trust? 08:21 “If we want to improve our trust, we just simply need to work on ourselves.” 08:56 Why listening with a sense of curiosity and respect drives reciprocal behavior and improves trust. 09:14 What is the best technique to immediately improve your trust relationship?

In this episode, host Stacey Richter speaks with Ann Lewandowski about whistleblowing in the healthcare industry, focusing on a significant case involving a whistleblower at an employee benefit consultant (EBC) firm. This EBC allegedly pocketed their clients' pharma rebates, violating the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2021.  The discussion highlights the nuances of being a whistleblower, the ethical dilemmas faced, compliance challenges, and the significant financial implications for companies and individuals involved in illegal activities.  Ann Lewandowski provides insights into documenting and protecting oneself legally and discusses the broader context of trust and transparency in the healthcare sector. Click through to the show notes below to access all of the mentioned links and prior episodes mentioned. === LINKS === 🔗  Show Notes with all mentioned links:   https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/episodes ✉️  Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙  Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤  Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤  Listen on Spotify   https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺  Subscribe to our YouTube channel   https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads  https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky   https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X   https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/   08:10 What does it mean to be a whistleblower? 09:05 What’s happening in the current whistleblower case about pharma rebates? 14:24 What are the disclosure requirements, and how does this affect contracts in healthcare? 15:05 EP379 with AJ Loiacono. 15:11 The 5500 form. 15:36 EP397 with Paul Holmes. 16:46 Why having a “defensive health plan” is important. 17:31 Matt Ohrt’s post about healthcare’s soul. 17:42 Michelle Bernabe’s post about how healthcare has lost its heart. 18:15 Why “trust and verify” is important when building contracts and relationships in healthcare. 18:42 Quote by W. Edwards Deming. 21:35 How has this case moved from state to federal court? 23:30 Whistleblower case on generic drug collusion. 24:01 What is a qui tam lawsuit? 28:08 What is an Upjohn warning and the issue of corporate Miranda rights? 30:01 What is Ann’s advice to employees who might be whistleblowers? 31:41 EP438 with John Lee, MD. 33:31 What are some red flags that employees should look for to understand what kind of company they work for?