#66: Mythos as the Scaffolding of Mad Worlds with Sabina Wantoch

Sabina Wantoch PhD is a researcher, facilitator, consultant, artist and animist. They are an Honorary Associate Professor at the Centre for Multidisciplinary & Intercultural Inquiry at University College London, a consultant in peer support for mental health with Imroc, and co-founder of The Mad Psychedelics Collaboratory. Their work centres around madness and its porous intersections with varieties of altered states, as well as entanglements between paradigms and conceptual structures. Our conversation covers intersubjectivity and shared perception, reducing the fear of madness, the reciprocal nature of mythos, the varieties of meaning and sense-making, and the importance of equanimity.Sabina then shares three symbols they’ve created; the Net, the Bog, and the Crossroads. Inspired by tarot, these accompany their PhD thesis and form part of Sabina’s upcoming deck that represents the mad experience.Link to Sabina's research.

Jasper Feyaerts is a philosopher and associate professor in clinical psychology at the University of Ghent, Belgium. He is co-founder of the Too Mad to be True conference, alongside previous guest, Wouter Kusters.Jasper’s research specialises phenomenology, self-disorders, psychosis, and delusions. Our conversation enquires into the elusive, difficult-to-define nature of selfhood. We begin comparing conventional psychiatric models of pathology with direct enquiry into the subjective experience.We look at the risks and the value of objectifying and conceptualising experience, interaction and knowledge as crucial to self-understanding, the self as it relates to so-called disorder, the view of Eastern spiritual traditions, such as Buddhist no-self, the illusion and necessity of control, flow and immersion versus self-reflection, primordial shame and ontological paranoia, the fear and joy of spontaneity, and what changes Jasper would like to see in the field of psychiatry.

This episode features my talk from the 2024 edition of Too Mad to be True on the theme of The Paradoxes of Madness. In exploring Transrationality and the Paradox of Divine Madness, I use philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein’s theory of language games to demonstrate how the models of reality directly influence how sanity and insanity is framed.If we change our model from conventional materialism to non-duality or pure consciousness, what changes?I explore the metaphor of “The Light,” that surfaces in all religious traditions and in the phrase en-light-en-ment; the pathologising of spiritual experiences; non-duality as the ultimate paradox; what we can learn from Zen koans and no-mind, the three forms of spiritual blindness; the need to synthesise multiple perspectives; and the role of trans-rationality in human development.

Stijn Vanheule is a clinical psychologist, psychoanalyst, and professor at Ghent University, Belgium. Our conversation was inspired by his most recent book, Why Psychosis Is Not So Crazy.Stijn overviews the work of French psychoanalyst Jacques Lacan. He explains Lacan’s three registers: the Symbolic, the Imaginary, and the Real; psychosis as a confrontation with the Real; the security and limitations of symbolic convention; how words and stories structure reality; logic versus artistic coherence; and the existential value of paranoia.We compare Lacanian and Jungian approaches on subjects such as the paradox of archetypal and individual, personal myth, and self-knowledge as a never-ending process. Underlying our conversation is the common ground of viewing psychosis not as an illness, but in Stijn’s words: “the subjective manifestation of a struggle that touches upon the fundamental aspects of human existence."

Wouter Kusters is a Dutch philosopher and linguist. He is the author of five books, including the award-winning A Philosophy of Madness, which was translated to English in 2020.His writing details his experiences of psychosis through a philosophical lens, including stays in psychiatric institutions and solitary confinement. Wouter is co-organiser of the Too Mad to Be True Conference which takes place in-person in Ghent, Belgium, and online on the 14th and 15th May.Our discussion explores the overlap of madness and mysticism and the limits of language, concepts, and the rational mind to describe or comprehend this vast terrain, which Wouter describes as “the black hole in which thought loses itself.”---Details on the Too Mad to be True Conference: https://www.psychiatrieenfilosofie.nl/too-mad-to-be-true-iv

Fariba Bogzaran is an artist, scientist and pioneer of dream studies. Between 1986 and 1989 she conducted scientific studies on lucid dreams at the Lucidity Institute at the Stanford Sleep Laboratory.Fariba mixes psychology, art, contemplative practices, shamanism, Taoism, and more. Her artwork is inspired by her deep connection with nature and her collaboration with the hypnagogic and lucid dreaming states of consciousness. She coined the term Lucid Art, which views art as an epistemology, or a way of knowing.Fariba is co-author of Integral Dreaming and Extraordinary Dreams and How to Work with Them. Our far reaching conversation explores themes in those books, including precognitive dreams, telepathic dreams, and mutual dreams. We dive deep into lucid dreams, including their multi-dimensionality and what Fariba calls hyperspace lucidity.We also look at how dreams inform déja vú, why physicists resonate with lucid art, experiences of light, voidness, and the non-dual, and why knowledge and realisations from dreams must translate to lucid waking.

Claudia Barfoot is a psychotherapist, Ancestral Healing Practitioner, and founder of the Land of Possible, which merges western theories of the psyche with indigenous systems of knowledge to facilitate growth and healing.Claudia’s cross-cultural approach combines psychology, psychoanalysis, dreamwork, sacred plant medicines, and ancestral traditions. She is informed by perspectives from the Toltec and Maya peoples of Mexico, as well as the teachings of the Mamos and Sagas from la Sierra Nevada de Santa Marta, Colombia. Her expansive wisdom provides an insightful perspective on dreams. We discuss: visitations from ancestors, emotional landscapes, the dream body, astral travel, visiting different realms,’ what colours represent, prophetic dreams, why certain traditions see dreams as shared experiences, how dreams prepare us for death, nightmares and encountering ‘dark beings,’ spiritual protection, dreams’ sacred communication, and much more.

Daniel Ingram returns to the show following our first conversation, Awakening and the Search for Meaning. Daniel is best known for his cult classic Mastering The Core Teachings of the Buddha, within which he maps the stages of insight. He is also an emergency medicine physician and part of The Emergent Phenomenology Research Consortium (EPRC) which aims to integrate spiritual, mystical or energetic experiences into healthcare systems.Continuing the dream series, our conversation explores how Daniel integrates dreams into the stages of insight. He shares his definition of standard, symbolic, lucid, and hyper-lucid dreams. We look at a host of intriguing spiritual experiences within dreams, including: vivid sense perception, out of body experiences, guru transmission, kundalini awakenings, meditating in dreams, ego-transcendence, no-self dreams, and the continuum between dreams, imagination, and the dreamlike nature of “waking” reality.

I’m joined by Lisa Marchiano, an award-winning author and certified Jungian analyst with a private practice in Philadelphia.Lisa is the author of Motherhood: Facing and Finding Yourself and The Vital Spark: Reclaim Your Outlaw Energies and Find Your Feminine Fire. Her latest book, Dream Wise: Unlocking the Meaning of Your Dreams, is written with Deborah Stewart and Joseph Lee, her fellow co-hosts of the popular depth psychology podcast, This Jungian Life.Our conversation focuses on making sense of dreams. Topics include: understanding imagery and symbols, unlocking meaning, working with setting, characters, and unfolding storylines, the dream ego’s perspective, “dreaming on” through active imagination, learning from emotions, encounters with the Self and the “God within,” dreams as life-changing religious experiences, and practical tips for dream recall.We join the conversation with Lisa and I discussing the application of the “keys” identified in Dreamwise…Lisa's Website.Dreamwise Book.This Jungian Life Podcast.

Welcome to episode 57 of the MindThatEgo Podcast and the first of a new series on dreams. I’m joined by David Bedrick, the founder of the Santa Fe Institute for Shame-based Studies, where he trains therapists, coaches and healers, and offers workshops for individuals.David graduated from the Process Work Institute and has been adjunct faculty for over 15 years. He studied under Arny Mindell, the founder of process-oriented psychology. Mindell was a student of Carl Jung, who integrated physics and the body into Jung’s work. David also taught psychology and philosophy courses at the University of Phoenix.His latest book, The Unshaming Way, is the focus of today’s conversation. Topics include: common misconceptions of shame, trauma-based and cultural origins of shame, the healing power of an unshaming witness, the intelligence of bodily experience, unshamed views of madness, depression and mental illness, expressing and learning from big emotions, the “dreambody” as a metaphor for inner processes, and why dreams naturally provide an unshamed view. Enjoy.---David's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/david.bedrick/?hl=enDavid's YouTube: https://youtube.com/@davidbedrick3872?si=o1WhsyD64qPnh4KT---