Women Zion Builders | An Interview with Robin Ritch

Jeff Strong worked nearly 30 years in the consumer products industry as a senior executive at Procter & Gamble and global president and chief customer officer at Johnson & Johnson. He then taught in the Marriott School of Business at Brigham Young University and worked as an advisor to the Church before serving as a mission leader in the Arkansas Bentonville Mission. Jeff has since spent several years doing research on why people are leaving the Church. He recently published the book Torn: Why People We Love Are Leaving the Church and What We Can Learn from Them. Jeff lives in Midway, Utah, and stays busy with a little lavender farm, some business consulting, and enjoying family. Links Torn: Why People We Love Are Leaving the Church and What We Can Learn from Them What to Say When Loved Ones Leave the Church | An Interview with Jeff Strong and Joseph Grenny The Data Behind Church Culture | An Interview with Jeff Strong TornByJeffStrong.com Instagram: @tornbyjeffstrong Facebook Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights 00:02:42 – Competing Narratives in Church Growth and Disaffiliation 00:04:22 – Personal Connection to Disaffiliation 00:06:36 – The Journey to Understanding Disaffiliation 00:09:05 – The Role of Data and Personal Experience 00:10:54 – The Complexity of Disaffiliation 00:12:11 – The Challenge of Measuring Disaffiliation 00:15:09 – Research Methodology and Findings 00:17:29 – Understanding the Audience for “Torn” 00:19:30 – The Importance of Accurate Understanding 00:20:36 – Celebrating Strengths While Facing Challenges 00:22:03 – The Impact of Local vs. Global Growth 00:25:41 – The Role of Missionary Work [CORRECTION: Jeff’s rough estimate of 275,000 baptisms per year is the GLOBAL number. The U.S. number is a portion of that.] 00:27:06 – The Need for a Balanced Perspective 00:29:26 – The Misconception of Resurgence Among Young People 00:31:03 – The Data on Disaffiliation 00:35:02 – The Four Waves of Disaffiliation 00:40:53 – Wave One: Lifestyle and Depletion 00:43:17 – Personal Anecdote on Depletion and Church Experience 00:44:19 – Wave Two: Doubt and Disbelief 00:46:05 – Wave Three: Cultural and Social Factors 00:48:12 – Wave Four: Institutional Issues 00:50:00 – The Importance of Understanding and Addressing Disaffiliation Key Insights Competing Narratives: The church is experiencing growth in certain areas, such as baptisms and missionary work, but disaffiliation remains a significant concern, with many individuals quietly stepping away from their faith. Personal Connection: Jeff shares his personal journey of grappling with his son’s disaffiliation, highlighting the emotional impact and the need for a deeper understanding of why individuals leave the church. Research Findings: Jeff’s research indicates that approximately 40% of active members have disaffiliated since 2000, with various reasons categorized into “waves,” including lifestyle challenges and deeper faith crises. Cultural Dynamics: The discussion emphasizes the importance of recognizing the cultural pressures within the church that may lead to feelings of depletion rather than spiritual fulfillment for some members. Engagement vs. Disaffiliation: While many active members report strong engagement and purpose, a significant portion of young adults are less affiliated with organized religion, indicating a complex relationship with faith. Leadership Applications Fostering Understanding: Leaders can benefit from understanding the reasons behind disaffiliation to create a more inclusive and supportive environment for those struggling with their faith. Encouraging Open Dialogue: By promoting open conversations about faith challenges, leaders can help bridge the gap between those who feel fulfilled in their faith and those who are struggling. Addressing Cultural Pressures: Leaders should be aware of the cultural dynamics that may lead to feelings of depletion among members and work to create a more nurturing and understanding community that supports individual spiritual journeys. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Robin Ritch has spent her career building things that matter. She has led teams at Microsoft, Intel, and Cisco, and most recently served as President and Publisher of Deseret News Publishing Company, where she helped transform a 172-year-old institution into a nationally recognized digital voice. Throughout her career, Robin has had a knack for seeing around corners. She has launched new products, modernized organizations, and brought together unlikely communities around conversations that matter. She gives back through board service at The Policy Project, WikiCharities, Social Venture Partners, and Mission Edge, organizations working to make communities stronger. For as long as she can remember, Robin has been fascinated by women and their relationship with God. That lifelong curiosity is what led her to write “Using Friction to Grow”, her first book. Robin examines case studies of Latter-day Saint women who navigated significant social and ecclesiastical changes during the 1970s. She discusses how these women managed friction from society, family, and the Church to develop deeper discipleship and personal sanctification. Links Using Friction to Grow: Stories of Strength and Resilience, LDS Women 1968-1976 Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Key Insights The Purpose of Friction: Friction is a divine design intended to slow individuals down, allowing them to refine their relationship with God and smooth away “rough edges” of character. Personal vs. Organizational Revelation: Individuals may receive personal revelation for their own lives that precedes broader organizational shifts within the Church. Historical Resilience: Women in the 1970s drew strength from the stories of their suffragette grandmothers, recognizing that navigating tension within a faith community is not a new phenomenon. Individual Agency and Revelation: The women Robin interviewed did not view Church counsel as a reason to stop their personal progression; instead, they used it as a prompt to seek their own confirmed answers through prayer and fasting. Grace for Diverse Paths: These women practiced deep empathy, recognizing that God provides unique answers for different individuals and that one person’s path does not dictate the “correct” path for everyone else. Leadership Applications Validating the Struggle: Leaders can help members understand that feeling “friction” with a policy or teaching is not a sign of unworthiness but an opportunity for a sanctifying “wrestle” with God. Managing Implementation: Recognizing the gap between revelation and organizational implementation helps leaders be more patient with institutional changes and more supportive of members who see needs before the organization adapts. 00:02:00 – Robin’s Book: Using Friction to Grow 00:03:00 – The Importance of Women’s Stories 00:04:00 – The 1970s: A Time of Friction for Women 00:06:00 – The Equal Rights Amendment and Church Response 00:07:00 – Personal Stories of Friction and Faith 00:09:00 – Navigating Friction in Faith Communities 00:10:00 – The Role of Personal Revelation 00:12:00 – The Nature of Friction in Growth 00:13:00 – Engaging with Friction for Personal Growth 00:15:00 – The Evolution of Church Practices 00:17:00 – The Importance of Change and Growth 00:18:00 – Balancing Hope and Disappointment in Faith 00:20:00 – The Role of Friction in Personal Development 00:21:00 – Story of a Woman’s Experience with Church Leadership 00:24:00 – Finding Strength in Christ Amidst Friction 00:25:00 – The Impact of Personal Stories 00:27:00 – The Need for Women’s Voices in the Church 00:29:00 – Encouragement for Women in Parenting 00:30:00 – Broadening Engagement Beyond Parenting 00:32:00 – The Importance of Sharing Light 00:33:00 – The Role of Leaders in Navigating Friction 00:37:00 – Understanding Different Perspectives 00:40:00 – The Influence of Social Media on Women’s Stories 00:41:00 – The Responsibility of the Hearer in Storytelling The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

David Boice is a faith-based storyteller and traveler originally from Wausau, Wisconsin, and the creator of the YouTube series 52 Churches in 52 Weeks. What began as a personal search for a spiritual home became a nationwide journey through nearly 200 congregations, documenting not just what churches teach, but how they receive those walking in for the first time. His work offers a unique window into the lived experience of faith, community, and belonging across modern Christianity. Through these road stories, David has developed a thoughtful perspective on the subtle dynamics that shape religious communities—hospitality, fellowship, teaching, and the process by which a stranger becomes an insider. His content blends spiritual curiosity with candid reflection, inviting viewers to engage faith in a more personal and experiential way. In April 2024, David was baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He recently relocated to Utah and is now developing 52 Temples in 52 Weeks, a companion project exploring temple worship, symbolism, and covenant faith. Alongside his content, he has used his platform to support causes such as St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital. When he’s not traveling or filming, David can usually be found writing, editing, or wrestling with deeper questions—like whether dad jokes qualify as a spiritual gift. Links YouTube @52churchesin52weeks YouTube @52temples Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights David discusses his unique journey of visiting various denominations before joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The conversation focuses on the impact of church culture, the power of a welcoming environment, and the lessons Latter-day Saint leaders can learn from the strengths and weaknesses of other faith traditions. 00:03:38 – David’s Background and Spiritual Journey 00:05:51 – Fallout with the Lutheran Church 00:07:45 – The Idea of Visiting 52 Churches 00:10:05 – Documenting the Church Visits 00:12:17 – The Need for Community and Church 00:13:41 – First Visit to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 00:18:25 – Insights on Church Culture and Leadership 00:21:02 – The Importance of Welcoming Visitors 00:22:04 – Generational Disconnect in Churches 00:25:24 – The Role of Missionaries in Church Culture 00:26:16 – Cleaning Assignments and Ownership 00:30:16 – Communion Practices Across Different Churches 00:32:23 – The Significance of Communion in Worship 00:36:19 – Differences in Communion Timing and Structure 00:40:03 – The Role of Communion in Community and Faith 00:45:09 – Unique Takeaways from Church Visits and Experiences Key Insights Welcoming Environment: David emphasizes the importance of a communal atmosphere in churches. He found that Latter-day Saint congregations were notably more welcoming, with members actively engaging with visitors, which contrasted sharply with his experiences in other churches. Communion Practices: The sacrament in Latter-day Saint services is conducted early in the meeting, which David found refreshing compared to other traditions where communion is often the main event. This practice fosters a sense of community and shared purpose. Involvement and Ownership: David appreciated the opportunities for active participation in the Latter-day Saint community, such as cleaning assignments, which gave him a sense of ownership and responsibility within the ward. Generational Engagement: He noted the generational dynamics in church attendance, observing that many mainline Protestant churches struggle to engage younger generations, while Latter-day Saint congregations maintain a strong sense of family and community. Cultural Differences: David highlighted the differences in how various churches approach worship, including the use of sensory elements in Catholic services versus the more straightforward approach in many Protestant services. Leadership Applications Foster a Welcoming Culture: Latter-day Saint leaders can prioritize creating a welcoming environment by encouraging members to actively greet and engage with newcomers, ensuring that visitors feel valued and included. Encourage Participation: Leaders should provide opportunities for members to take on responsibilities within the ward, fostering a sense of ownership and community involvement that can enhance engagement and commitment. Focus on Community Building: By emphasizing the importance of family and community in church activities, leaders can help bridge generational gaps and create a more inclusive atmosphere that resonates with all members. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Jump into Zion Lab: https://app.leadingsaints.org In this episode we back up to early March for the first “Leading Saints Live” livestream where Kurt Francom explains more about Zion Lab and shares highlights from discussions. We discuss: Zion Lab as a Resource Generational Disconnect: The gap between older and younger generations, the pressure to conform to expectations, and the facade of compliance rather than genuine engagement Bishopric Responsibilities: Shifting responsibilities of bishops and balancing their focus on youth while ensuring all members receive adequate support and ministering Communication Strategies: Ask open-ended questions and foster a non-judgmental environment to promote dialogue and understanding Boundary Changes and Transparency: Is there a need for transparency regarding boundary changes? Can communication reduce anxiety and foster acceptance? The Power of Naming: Inclusion and Belonging for LGBTQ+ Families in Church Discussions How to become a Zion Builder (and how to get a sponsored membership if cost is a barrier) ► Links & Resources: 📱 Download the Leading Saints app: Search “Leading Saints” in the Apple App Store or Google Play 💬 Join Zion Lab and become a Zion Builder at https://app.leadingsaints.org 📩 DM Kurt directly inside Zion Lab “Leading Saints Live” streams every first Friday of the month in the Zion Lab app. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Zion Lab: https://app.leadingsaints.org/ Leading Saints Live | March Recap + The Future of Leading Saints Kurt Francom shares highlights from the past month in Zion Lab — Leading Saints’ growing online community app — and digs into the biggest topic on everyone’s mind: the upcoming changes to the Sunday meeting schedule taking effect September 6. In this episode: What is Zion Lab and why Kurt thinks it’s the future of Leading Saints The AI Clerk feature and how it helps church leaders find answers fast Reactions and discussion around the new split Sunday meeting schedule Kurt’s Elders Quorum small-group format and why it works so well for the shorter class time A bishop’s “Bishop’s Youth Discussion” model that’s transforming youth engagement How to become a Zion Builder (and how to get a sponsored membership if cost is a barrier) Links & Resources: 📱 Download the Leading Saints app: Search “Leading Saints” in the Apple App Store or Google Play 💬 Join Zion Lab and become a Zion Builder at leadingsaints.org 📩 DM Kurt directly inside Zion Lab Leading Saints Live streams every first Friday of the month. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Jeff Strong worked nearly 30 years in the consumer products industry as a senior executive at Procter & Gamble and global president and chief customer officer at Johnson & Johnson. He then taught in the Marriott School of Business at Brigham Young University and worked as an advisor to the Church before serving as a mission leader in the Arkansas Bentonville Mission. Jeff has since spent several years doing research on why people are leaving the Church. While not a professional researcher, his career involved a large amount of research and the research he shares in this podcast was done with the help of some of the top Latter-day Saint researchers in the world. Today, Jeff lives in Midway, Utah, and stays busy with a little lavender farm, some business consulting, and enjoying family. Joseph Grenny is a lifelong student of social science whose writings are references in major universities around the world. He is a New York Times bestselling author of eight books, including leadership, influence and communication classics Crucial Conversations, Influencer, Crucial Accountability, and Change Anything. His books are available in over 30 languages and have sold over six million copies. Joseph is a co-founder and current board chair of Unitus Labs, an international nonprofit that has helped over 15 million of the world’s poorest to move toward self reliance. In 2015 he and his colleagues started The Other Side Academy, a 2.5-year school for those with long histories of crime, addiction and homelessness. The Other Side Academy is free, requiring only a desire to change for admission. In April 2021, Joseph and the leaders of The Other Side Academy announced their intention to build The Other Side Village, a 400-home community for those who are chronically homeless based on principles of self-reliance and peer accountability. Joseph is married to the former Celia Marie Waldron. They have six children and eight grandchildren and live in Salt Lake City. Links Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community The Data Behind Church Culture | An Interview with Jeff Strong Joining Moroni’s War on Addiction | An Interview with Joseph Grenny Creating Change | Interview with Joseph Grenny Messy Conversations: When Loved Ones Leave the Faith, by Joseph Grenny Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Social science expert Joseph Grenny and researcher Jeff Strong discuss the high-stakes nature of “faith transitions” within the Church . The conversation centers on how leaders and family members can navigate these emotionally charged discussions to preserve and strengthen relationships. 00:04:45 – The Importance of High-Stakes Conversations 00:06:17 – The Challenge of Faith Transitions 00:08:31 – The Need for Open Dialogue 00:09:50 – The Emotional Weight of Conversations 00:11:13 – The Impact of Poor Responses 00:12:21 – Preparing for Difficult Conversations 00:13:35 – Research Insights on Conversations 00:15:48 – Identifying Positive Deviants 00:16:29 – Learning from Successful Conversations 00:18:06 – The Role of Fear in Conversations 00:20:06 – Talking Under the Influence of Stress 00:22:40 – The Importance of Taking a Breather 00:25:23 – Three Key Steps for Effective Conversations 00:27:00 – Feeling Your Feelings 00:29:40 – Fixing Your Story 00:31:40 – Finding Your Motive 00:33:13 – The Transformative Power of Relationships 00:35:11 – Embracing the Messiness of Life 00:38:11 – The Role of God in Our Growth 00:40:45 – The Journey of Self-Discovery Key Insights The “Devoutness Paradox”: Research involving 15,000 participants found that the more devout a person is, the less likely a conversation about faith transition is to go well. If the recipient is a church leader, the odds of a negative outcome are 4.5 times higher than average. High Intensity of Need: Approximately 83% of individuals going through a faith transition reach out to others, typically contacting four to five people, indicating a deep desire for connection and resolution during the process. The Trap of “Problem-Solving”: Many leaders and parents react out of fear and an immediate impulse to “fix” the individual or bring them back to the church. This motive often leads to the other person feeling judged, berated, or suspected. The “Positive Deviant” Model: Some leaders and family members manage to maintain their own religious commitment while creating a safe, robust space for dialogue. These “positive deviants” prioritize the relationship over immediate theological conformity. Long-Lasting Consequences: The first few seconds of a conversation are pivotal; words spoken in moments of shock or vulnerability can endure for years and dictate the future trajectory of the relationship. Leadership Applications Shifting Motives: Leaders must move from a mindset of “correcting” to one of “listening and processing”. Recognizing that fear often drives the impulse to solve a problem can help leaders stay present and supportive rather than confrontational. Validating the Struggle: Leaders should normalize the reality that faith transitions are common and often a healthy part of a person’s individual journey . By acknowledging the difficulty without judgment, they empower the individual to feel heard rather than controlled. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Tucker Boyle has spent over 25 years teaching Seminary and Institute for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, where he has worked closely with youth and young adults to help them deepen their relationship with Jesus Christ and navigate real-life challenges with faith and awareness. He has served as a Young Single Adult bishop and in other leadership callings, giving him a front-line perspective on the complexities individuals face in their spiritual journeys. Tucker is the founder of Harmony Road Retreats, a nonprofit organization that creates compassionate, supportive spaces for individuals wanting to find inner harmony while experiencing shifts in their faith. Through retreats, teaching, and his podcast Call to Harmony, he helps people develop practical tools for navigating spiritual dissonance, regulating the nervous system, and cultivating a more grounded, personal connection with God. He lives in Spanish Fork, Utah, with his wife Katie and their five children. Links https://www.harmonyroadretreats.com/ What I Learned About Leadership When My 2nd Counselor Left the Church ChurchofJesusChrist.org Topics and Questions Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Tucker talks about navigating faith crises and transitions. The discussion explores the intellectual and physiological aspects of questioning faith, moving beyond “black and white” thinking to find spiritual peace through connection and the heart. 00:02:21 – Tucker’s Faith Crisis Journey 00:03:24 – Understanding Faith Crisis Beyond Doubt 00:04:05 – Importance of Community in Faith Transitions 00:04:32 – Tucker’s Experience in Teaching 00:05:43 – Observations on Youth and Young Adults 00:06:31 – Trusting the Goodness of the Younger Generation 00:07:11 – Defining Faith Crisis and Faith Journey 00:08:28 – Tucker’s Personal Faith Crisis Experience 00:09:01 – The Impact of Seeking Other Perspectives 00:10:37 – The Challenge of Balancing Beliefs 00:11:54 – The Role of the Dissertation Chair 00:12:38 – Navigating Fear and Doubt in Research 00:14:03 – The Dissolution of Testimony Pillars 00:15:17 – The Moment of Psychological Free Fall 00:16:21 – The Question of Wasting Time in Faith 00:17:03 – The Complexity of Belief and Doubt 00:18:03 – The Nature of Testimony Pillars 00:19:21 – The Challenge of Seeing Humanity in Divinity 00:20:58 – The Shift from Certainty to Complexity 00:22:46 – The Experience of Testimony in Church 00:23:40 – The Impact of Testimony on Personal Faith 00:24:53 – The Role of Nervous System in Faith Experiences 00:26:54 – The Importance of Self-Regulation 00:28:24 – The Journey of Healing and Understanding 00:30:31 – The Non-Linear Nature of Faith Journeys 00:31:13 – The Moment of Clarity and Love 00:33:08 – The Temporary Nature of Spiritual Experiences 00:34:24 – The Shift Back to Struggle 00:36:08 – Understanding the Faith Crisis Experience 00:37:41 – The Journey Towards Harmony 00:39:44 – The Role of Heart vs. Mind in Faith 00:41:06 – The Transformation Through Faith Crisis 00:43:22 – Embracing Complexity in Belief 00:45:01 – Gratitude for the Faith Crisis Experience 00:45:34 – Moving Forward with New Perspectives Key Insights The Nature of Faith Crisis: A faith crisis is often experienced as a physical response in the nervous system, where the world feels like it is falling apart, rather than just an intellectual disagreement. The Trap of Certainty: Boyle describes his own journey from a “black and white” mindset of having every answer to encountering complexity that dissolved his traditional “pillars” of testimony. Leading with the Heart: While the mind seeks to label, divide, and categorize, the heart can hold nuance, questions, and imperfections in church history or leadership that the analytical mind cannot. Spiritual Regulation: Finding peace often requires “stepping back” from a stressed mind through practices like meditation, allowing for an openness to God even when specific questions remain unanswered. Trusting in God’s Reach: A central theme is the belief that individuals cannot “get out of God’s reach,” and that His love is not dependent on common organizational membership. Leadership Applications Creating Safe Spaces: Leaders can support those in transition by listening without an agenda to “fix” or judge them, ensuring the individual feels safe and “not othered” within the community. Managing Parental and Leader Panic: Tucker advises leaders to trust in the “deep goodness” of the youth and recognize that God’s plan is large enough to encompass their questions and journeys. Focusing on Connection Over Advice: Instead of providing a “five-point plan” or intellectual rebuttals, leaders should focus on maintaining a loving relationship, mirroring the “eternal bond” offered by God and Christ. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

A best-selling author and internationally sought-after speaker and consultant, Michael Timms teaches practical leadership strategies that drive high-performance. He earned an M.B.A. from Utah State University, and was a consultant with Deloitte and an HR leader in the construction and manufacturing industries, prior to forming his own consultancy. Michael is the author of How Leaders Can Inspire Accountability and Succession Planning That Works. Links Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community How Leaders Can Inspire Accountability: Three Habits That Make or Break Leaders and Elevate Organizational Performance How to Claim Your Leadership Power | Michael Timms MichaelTimms.com Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Michael talks about the principles of accountability within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The discussion focuses on how leaders can foster a culture of ownership and high performance among volunteers without relying on the traditional levers of corporate consequences. 00:01:46 – The Challenge of Motivation and Accountability 00:02:18 – Introduction of Michael Timms and His Expertise 00:02:53 – Michael Timms’ Background and Approach to Accountability 00:03:59 – Accountability in a Faith Context 00:04:32 – Defining Accountability 00:06:18 – Understanding Results in a Church Context 00:09:23 – Starting Points for Accountability in Organizations 00:11:06 – The Role of Leaders in Accountability 00:12:20 – Key Behaviors for Modeling Accountability 00:14:21 – Setting Expectations in Leadership 00:16:43 – Importance of Feedback and Communication 00:20:03 – Clarifying Purpose and Results 00:21:36 – Establishing Expectations for Team Dynamics 00:24:24 – Addressing Accountability Breakdowns 00:26:45 – Three Habits of Personal Accountability 00:29:02 – Motivating People in a Volunteer Organization 00:30:26 – The Power of Positive Feedback 00:32:12 – Giving Ownership to Team Members 00:34:12 – Scenarios for Accountability in Activities 00:39:17 – Handling Blame in Accountability Conversations 00:41:39 – Avoiding Micromanagement in Leadership Key Insights Redefining Accountability: Timms defines accountability as taking ownership of results and focusing on the actions necessary to achieve the right outcomes, rather than using it as a euphemism for blame or punishment. The Power of Modeling: Accountability begins with the leader; if those in positions of authority do not own their mistakes or seek feedback, others in the organization are unlikely to do so. Defining Results: In a faith context, “results” should be defined broadly—such as bringing people closer to Christ—and then distilled into specific goals, such as building testimonies or improving how members feel about their Sunday experience. Setting Clear Expectations: High-performing teams agree on general guidelines for how they will work together—such as preferred communication methods and response times—before diving into the work. Three Habits of Personal Accountability: Michael highlights three essential behaviors for leaders: avoiding blame, “looking in the mirror” to see how they contributed to a problem, and “engineering the solution” by fixing broken systems or processes. Motivation Through Ownership: Motivating volunteers is best achieved by giving them a say in outcomes, providing frequent positive feedback to trigger a sense of progress, and granting them true decision-making power within councils. Leadership Applications Requesting Feedback: Leaders can improve performance by sincerely asking those they lead for feedback on how to make it easier for them to achieve their goals. Systemic Problem Solving: When a task is not completed, Michael suggests leaders should ask “where did the process break down?” rather than “who dropped the ball?” to reduce defensiveness and improve future results. Standardizing Procedures: Implementing standard operating procedures for recurring events—such as meeting agendas or baptismal services—helps ensure consistency and reduces the mental load on volunteers. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Steve Webber served a mission for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the Spain Barcelona Mission and later graduated from Brigham Young University with a degree in Business Management. Professionally, he owns and manages an advertising agency. Steve has served in various leadership capacities, including bishop, high counselor, Young Men president, elders quorum president, and high priest group leader. These experiences, along with his time as a home minister, have given him a unique perspective on how valiant ministering can bless the flock of the Good Shepherd. He currently hosts the Home Ministering Podcast on YouTube. Steve lives in Cedar Hills, Utah, with his wife, Jana. They are the parents of five children and five grandchildren. Links HomeMinistering.com Home Ministering: The Process of Perfecting the Saints Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Steve discusses the evolution of ministering within the Church, emphasizing the shift from home teaching to a more holistic approach to ministering. He shares insights from his book and offers practical advice for leaders to enhance their ministering efforts. 00:03:22 – Background on Steve’s Book 00:04:04 – The Shift from Home Teaching to Ministering 00:05:13 – Early Experiences as a Bishop 00:06:43 – The Importance of Personal Connection 00:08:28 – The Role of Personalization in Ministering 00:09:06 – The Need for Flexibility in Ministering 00:10:00 – Addressing Safety Concerns in Ministering 00:10:31 – The Evolution of Ministering Terminology 00:12:01 – The Church’s Long-Term Vision for Ministering 00:14:25 – The Impact of Ministering on Church Attendance 00:15:40 – The Power of Asking the Right Questions 00:18:43 – Encouraging Open Communication in Ministering 00:20:37 – Serving Like Jesus 00:22:47 – Developing Christlike Attributes through Ministering 00:25:54 – The Importance of Prayer in Ministering 00:28:20 – The Role of Ministering in Building Community 00:30:40 – The Need for Humility in Receiving Help 00:32:54 – The Importance of Ministering Relationships 00:35:02 – Historical Context of Ministering Changes 00:37:21 – The Higher Law of Ministering 00:39:40 – The Role of Family Support in Ministering 00:41:06 – Building Authentic Relationships in Ministering Key Insights Ministering as a Higher Law: The transition from home teaching to ministering represents a return to the original purpose of caring for one another, focusing on service rather than just teaching lessons. Personal Connection: Effective ministering involves building genuine relationships, where ministering brothers and sisters are seen as trusted friends who can provide support and encouragement. The Power of Prayer: Asking families what they need prayer for can open doors for deeper connections and help ministering brothers and sisters understand how to serve effectively. Flexibility in Approach: There is no one-size-fits-all method for ministering; leaders should encourage creativity and adaptability based on the unique needs of families. Importance of Presence: Simply showing up and expressing love can have a profound impact, even if there are no specific tasks to perform. This presence fosters trust and openness. Leadership Applications Encourage Open Communication: Leaders can promote a culture where members feel comfortable sharing their needs, making it easier for ministering brothers and sisters to provide support. Focus on Relationships: Leaders should emphasize the importance of building relationships over merely fulfilling assignments, encouraging members to engage with those they serve on a personal level. Model Humility and Service: By demonstrating a willingness to receive help and support, leaders can set an example for their congregations, showing that vulnerability and openness are strengths in the ministering process. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Brandon Bennett currently serves as a Professor of Religious Education at Brigham Young University–Idaho. He previously worked for more than a decade in Seminaries and Institutes of Religion in Utah and Texas, where he was blessed to teach the restored gospel to many remarkable youth and young adults. Throughout much of his adult life, he has held callings working with the rising generation, focusing on strengthening their faith in Jesus Christ and helping them build a firm spiritual foundation. His experiences as a religious educator and youth leader have reinforced the importance of teaching truth “in plainness” (2 Nephi 31:3). Teaching doctrine with clarity and simplicity has, therefore, become one of his great priorities and convictions. He believes that as we seek to clearly understand and faithfully apply the principles taught in the scriptures and the words of the prophets—free from false assumptions—we place ourselves in a position to more fully receive the Savior’s power, peace, and direction in our lives. Brandon shares faith-filled thoughts on finding purpose in pain through Jesus Christ. This livestream explores why trials come—from our own choices, mortality, others’ actions, or divine tutoring—and how the Savior’s touch can give any experience meaning. Rather than saying “everything happens for a reason,” Brandon reframes the idea: through Jesus Christ, everything can have a reason and purpose. Drawing on scripture, doctrine, and the story of the man born blind, this discussion offers hope, perspective, and practical faith for anyone navigating hardship—and for leaders counseling others through it. Links Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights 00:02:31 – The Challenge of Offering Comfort in Trials 00:03:29 – Introduction of Brandon Bennett 00:04:04 – Background on Brandon’s Presentation 00:05:57 – The Complexity of Trials and Comforting Statements 00:07:35 – The Impact of “Everything Happens for a Reason” 00:09:20 – Understanding Trials Through Personal Experience 00:10:07 – The Nature of Adversity 00:11:21 – Orson F. Whitney’s Quote on Pain and Growth 00:12:54 – The Role of the Savior in Our Trials 00:14:27 – The Importance of Perspective in Trials 00:15:58 – The Role of Empathy in Leadership 00:20:51 – The Danger of Speculative Doctrines 00:23:12 – The Power of Empathy in Healing 00:25:04 – The Role of the Savior in Our Trials 00:26:33 – How to Involve Jesus Christ in Our Lives 00:30:25 – The Doctrine of Christ and Accessing His Power 00:34:25 – The Paradox of Grace 00:40:05 – The Nature of the Savior’s Love and Acceptance 00:42:12 – Conclusion and Final Thoughts on Trials and Healing The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.