APEX Express – 9.17.26- My Family Ep 2: What happens in ICE detention?
Explore APSC’s My Family Audio Series
A story-driven 3-part audio project about Cambodian, Hmong, Laotian, Vietnamese, and other Southeast Asian families doing everything possible to breathe with ease and live freely besides the people we love.
Created by the Asian Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express, and hosted by writer and activist Michelle MiJung Kim, My Family seeks to answer many of the questions countless families in our communities are grappling with today. Mass deportation and family separation are fueled by isolation and silence. With My Family, we aim to dismantle both with stories full of heart, compassion, and an honest look at the tangled paths many of us take to reckon with the past, rebuild our lives, and make a new place home.
Our deep gratitude extends to all the community members who shared their stories with us, even while painful to recount. Their commitment to creating stronger, more informed communities is unparalleled.
My Family Ep. 2: What happens in ICE detention?
In our second episode, we take a closer look at what happens when people are forced into ICE detention, including after completing their sentence in state prison and transforming their lives. You’ll hear from NC, Pam, and Tony, who endured ICE detention in California and other states, as well as Elijah Chhum, executive director of New Light Wellness.
Music from episode 2, as well as related resources, can be found below in the show notes. If you are an impacted community member in California or have a family member who is directly impacted by detention and deportation, we encourage you to contact APSC at [email protected] or our partners at New Light Wellness and the Center for Empowering Refugees and Immigrants.
Music:
Original composition by Joe Sin and the Angkor Wat Band. Joe is a Khmer elder and community leader in Oakland
Temple by Thao
Resources:
My Family Episode 2 discussion guide
APSC Data Report on Incarcerated and Formerly Incarcerated Asians and Pacific Islanders
Asian Law Caucus legal resources and video explainers for Southeast Asians facing deportation threats
USC Equity Research Institute analysis on ICE arrests of Asian and Pacific Islander Californians
We Are California: Hmong History and Cultural Studies
A special thanks to Hmong Innovating Politics for their guidance on Hmong communities’ history and refugee experiences.
Transcript
Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:00:00] Hello. Welcome to “My Family,” a project by the Asian Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express. I’m your host, Michelle Mijung Kim. If you haven’t yet, I invite you to check out our first episode. We’ll include a tag in the show notes, which you can find at kpfa.org/program/apex-express/. As as [00:01:00] listeners may know, many Southeast Asians are in the United States after their families found refuge here in the ’70s and ’80s, fleeing genocide and violence in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos.
Most have loved ones who didn’t survive. The ones who did make it out, around one point one million, are the largest refugee community ever resettled in the US. Today, after decades of building a home in the US, these families are targeted by mass detention and deportation. According to the latest data, forty-two percent of all Southeast Asian deportations to date happened between 2025 and 2026. There’s been a twentyfold increase in the deportations of Southeast Asian elders. Amid the pain and fear, families are seeking answers. How did we get here? What can we do to keep our family safe and together?
That’s why I’m partnering with the Asian [00:02:00] Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express, to bring our communities and families honest recounts of what is happening so that we can be there for each other. In today’s episode, we’ll focus on what happens in ICE detention.
Welcome to “My Family.”
A content warning for our listeners that in today’s episode, we’ll be discussing incarceration, depression, and family separation.
We first met NC in our last episode. NC and his family are Hmong. Like many other ethnic groups in Laos, including Lahu and Mien, Hmong people’s stories are unfa– Hmong people’s stories are unfamiliar to many.
These ethnic groups and others have shared ancient roots in the central and southern– in the central and southern regions of China. About 300 years ago, they were forced to flee the Chinese government’s oppression and persecution. Many sought safety in the highlands [00:03:00] of Southeast Asia. NC’s family settled in N- N- NC’s family settled in Laos.
During the Vietnam War, the CIA recruited tens of thousands of Hmong boys and men, including members of NC’s family, to fight in a covert campaign in Laos known as the Secret War, which you can learn more about in the resources we’ll share in the show notes. Hmong fighters served behind enemy lines, rescued US planes, and risked their lives for Americans.
The Hmong soldiers were told that they were– The Hmong soldiers were told they and their families would be protected, but when the war ended, the Americans left, and thousands of Hmong were left behind. Facing persecution for their work with the United States, the Hmong were once again forced to flee. One– Facing p- facing persecution for their work with the United States, the Hmong were once again forced to flee to survive, rendering them stateless.
Thousands of Hmong families and other ethnic minority groups hid in the jungles or escaped on foot. Many died on the journey from starvation, drowning, and disease. NC’s parents, [00:04:00] his mom pregnant with him, finally crossed the Mekong River into Thailand. NC was born into a refugee camp there, and after some time, his family was brought to the US, first in Long Beach and later in Stockton, where his dad opened an auto body shop
As a young person, NC was convicted of a crime, which led him to being incarcerated for 24 years. On the day he was supposed to be released from prison last year, instead of finally, instead of finally being able to return home, he was picked up by ICE. He had planned to finish his college education and become a social worker, helping young people struggling with trauma and loss like he did.
ICE took him to Mesa Verde, a detention facility in Bakersfield, California. For years, people detained in Mesa Verde and other ICE facilities in California, and other facilities, and other f- and other ICE facilities in California have led hun– Oh my gosh. For years, people detained in Mesa Verde and other ICE facilities in California have led hunger and labor strikes to protest medical neglect, gruesome conditions, including a perpetual lack of food and clean water.
California Attorney [00:05:00] General Rob Bonta says the conditions are worse now, calling ICE’s facilities in the state, quote, ” cruel, inhumane, and unacceptable.” As of this recording, at least 24 people have died in ICE custody nationwide this year. We’ll hear from NC what happened after ICE agents brought him to the Mesa Verde ICE facility.
Here’s NC
NC (pseudonym): Yeah, it’s kinda… It’s hard because when you hit detention, it’s like you paroled, you’re happy that you paroled because you’ve been incarcerated, ’cause I’ve been incarcerated for like like 24 years, and like, you know, it’s the next step.
So it’s the next step to freedom. And while I went to a detention facility, you know, you know, it’s like the main thing is just try to get out, not, not to get into trouble, you know. um, so during that time, it was like you don’t have like, like… If you don’t have, like, money to hire an attorney, then basically it’s kinda like you trying to ask for a pro bono attorney, somebody that’s willing to help you and represent you, but they have a lot of people in the [00:06:00] detention facility as well.
So when they come, it’s like they’re just overwhelmed with a whole bunch of people, and you hardly even get to, to really sit down and talk with them. So if you see them, they come visit like, I think, once a month, and then they’ll just take your A number down, and then they’ll just talk to you, and then they’ll just, you know…
If they come back to you, I guess they come back to you. But I haven’t really seen any, anybody, you know, um, they ever got back to that I know of, so. so.
Niketa Kumar: Mm-hmm.
NC (pseudonym): all the people, all the de- detainees that was there, um, those that were fighting their case, you know, Either they have a private, uh, immigration attorney, um, fighting for them, uh, uh, or they’re just doing paperwork themself.
one of the thing I wanna point out is while you’re in detention, you don’t have access to anything, you know. They give you like a tablet, and they give you like some cases on it, but you really don’t have access to look up anything or research anything. You only have, you know, the access to whatever that they [00:07:00] gave you um, According to their tablet. And, And, and it’s just like the tablet, they only have like… Like, for example, when I was there, um- We only had to, we had to share, like, four tablets, and there was a lot of us. And people sh- use it to, like, order canteen. Somebody would, like, use it to watch movie, listen to the radio.
Some people would use it to, um, talk with their family, Mm-hmm … like um, But, um, um, we don’t have enough tablets and, um, we don’t have enough, um, um, batteries on the tablet. And um, just getting a hold of the tablet is, is, um, is pretty hard to get. And, And, like, um…
They give you, like, a little pin for the, the computer, but it’s hard to, um, access it because they don’t really… There’s, like, no… They don’t really teach you how to access anything anyway. So you’re just, like, going from one place to another, and if you have something, you don’t know how to save it. So you would have to ask other people that’s been there for a while, and then you would have to go to, like… like…
You know, all this is, all this is just, like, um, like, um, I learned after, you know? It’s not like, like, like when I was [00:08:00] there-
NC (pseudonym): somebody was, was, you know, you know, showing me. So you have to sign up. You have to go to the library, and when they schedule… ‘Cause there’s, like, it’s overcrowded and there’s so many people. And, and they schedule the library.
There’s, like, one librarian and, and, you know, you know, we have to share the library. And then if you go there, then you have to try to get it printed or, you know, stuff like that. And then, and then when you do that stuff, you have to be able to sign up. You gotta have it, and if the librarian’s not there, then you just have to wait until another time.
So everything is just, um, hard. It’s not like, um, like if you remember something, then you can do something. And it’s, like, uh, even pencils and paper, if you don’t have, like, money to buy it on your canteen, then you would just have to ask somebody for it because everything… ‘ Cause once you get there, they don’t give you any property, you know?
So sometimes, um, if you talk to the, the, uh, detaining officers, if they let you take some of your, um, like hygiene items. Like if you come from prison, you take some of your hygiene items, they’ll allow you to bring it with you. [00:09:00] But other than that, it’s like you really don’t have access to anything. ‘ Cause once you get there, you have to slip out of your clothes, and you gotta wear, you know, prison clothes and can’t have any, um, any personal belongings on you.
So you’re just, like, going from one… It’s like one, one prison to another prison.
You just, you know, try to just be calm and, um, you know, try to just, you know, stay, don’t get into trouble, uh, you know, await for your, um, immigration hearing. um, And the first time I was there, um, I waited for my immigration hearing and, um, um, they didn’t even, um, um, get my paperwork because something happened, and I had to call, call, and had to write a bunch of letters and paper and that’s how… That’s why I didn’t, like, go to, um, um, my immigration hearing, like, like, within, like, a couple of weeks when I got there.
I had to wait, like, a whole month, you know, before I got scheduled for one. So, ’cause they, they lost my paperwork. I don’t know if they, they d- lost it or sent it because I was writing to the, the, ICE agent that, um, um, is in charge of my case, and they said they [00:10:00] don’t have any paperwork on me, so they can’t…
You know, You know, I was writing to the courts and I was, you know, dialing the phone number to the courts to see if they, um, um, uh, scheduled me for m- an immigration hearing. So it was, it it was, part of the process of sending the paperwork from the ICE place to the, uh, courts so they can schedule it, and they didn’t, they didn’t, they didn’t do it.
So I had to wait. I had to stay, like, an extended like, period of time, much longer than I should have um, I was able to finish… I mean, they were able to schedule me and then, um, during that time, you know, I saw attorneys and they were just telling me, ” Oh, nothing’s gonna happen to you. Um, the country’s not gonna accept you.
Um, just go and, you know, you can fight it if you want, but you’re probably gonna lose. So you’re gonna be here, like, two, three, four, five years fighting it in, in detention. And then if you just, you know, s- agree to it, like, yes, yes, yes, and then, then, after you sign all the paperwork, you just, you know, you’ll wait about, like, a month, and, and then you’ll just be out of here.”
So that was just the, like, like, you know, Basically, like a protocol.
Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:11:00] NC was eventually put on an Omni Air International plane. Many first learned about Omni’s large contract with ICE in 2018 when it helped execute the then largest deportation flight of Southeast Asian refugees in the United States history.
Since 2025, Omni’s work for ICE has quadrupled. As journalist Gillian Brockell has ex– as journalist Gillian Brockell explained, Omni has been the only large jet airline flying shackled passengers on long-haul ICE flights to Africa and Asia.
A former ICE official told NBC last year that each ICE flight costs taxpayers about $25,000 per hour. NC was deported last November.
NC (pseudonym): Well, like like when I came to Laos, I didn’t have anybody. Um, I didn’t know nobody, not a single relative or friend over here. But, um, um, uh, when I went to the detention [00:12:00] facility, I met a guy and we became friends, and he kinda like, like, he had relatives here in Laos.
So he told me that, um, um, you know, “Hey, if, um, um, if you don’t have anybody, you know, you know, I’ll tell my, um, my family to, to come and, um, um, sponsor you.” You know, like his, his, distant part of the family. And I say, sh- you know, “Thank you.” You know? um, when I got here, um, it was hard, too, because he had to try to like really, really try to convince them as well.
Um, it wasn’t like something that they would want to, you know, just do, you know? you know? So, um, it was very, very hard to get them to trust me. So, So, uh, uh, when they came and see me and they talk with me, and then they say okay, they’ll, they, they’ll decided to sponsor me. So with that, uh, I had a, you know, a little bit of relief because um, when you get here, it’s kinda like like if you don’t have a sponsor, uh, you don’t know how you gonna manage. You don’t know how you gonna… You don’t even, they won’t even let you out of the camp. So it’s like you’re just going from one detention facility to another detention [00:13:00] facility, but the only difference is at the campground here is much better because you’re not…
You know, You know, you wear your, your clothes and you’re fr- you, you roam free, and then, um, you sleep in a place where, um, you know, you have mattresses. You sleep in a place and, um, they do, they give you like, uh, uh, three meals a day, too. So, but then the thing is that you’re s- you’re stuck in the camp if nobody comes to get you, and I don’t know, I don’t know about the people that’s been there.
They can be there, They’ll stay there for, like, like, two, three months, and if they don’t have no sponsor, I don’t know what happens after that, ’cause I didn’t stay that long to, to see what happened to the people that, that don’t have a sponsor to come get them. You know? So it’s kinda scary, too, if you don’t have a sponsor to come get you, ‘ cause you don’t know where you’re gonna end up
Niketa Kumar: Hmm.
NC (pseudonym): But once I got a sponsor and, and, you know, you know, I came out, the thing is that the, it’s hard because once they, they get you out, it’s like, you know, you start to realize that, you know, they’re not your family, and then they want you to, you know, keep paying them and all this other stuff. And then, and then you have to like, you know, you don’t wanna like get into anything that’s not good [00:14:00] with them, you know?
you know?
you know. Mm-hmm. So then you try to go and find a place. So you kinda like just move out, you know, because you only there, you only allow, you know, they, you know, like, um, what’s the correct way? It’s like you can stay with them, like, like, but you only stay with them like temporary. Yeah.
So then you gotta go find your own place. but the, but the messed up thing is that if you don’t pay them, they don’t really help you to go find a place of your own. So that’s when, um, um, I was talking to some of my friends in America, and I was asking like, “Man, it’s kinda messed up ’cause we don’t have any programs here.
Like this country doesn’t have any programs that will, will, will help you transition, you know, into –
Niketa Kumar: Hmm …
NC (pseudonym): you know, the way of life in, in Laos.” And basically, I, I, I had to just try to learn everything the best way I can, talk to people, be as cordial as I can, and, uh, uh, and respectful as I can, and, uh, talk and ask.
And, but I don’t know Laos, so I don’t talk to any of the Laos people. But fortunately there are some Hmong people here, so then I talk to some other Hmong people here, and
I was fortunate to meet some people who was, who was willing to help me.
Um, so I made some [00:15:00] friends. And although I don’t know the Laos language, you know, sometimes I ask them to go help me translate, then they would, um, if they, you know, have time. But it’s, it’s, it’s hard, like for a time, for a time in the beginning I was just like just staying out. Sometimes I stayed out all night.
Sometimes if I find a place to sleep, I would, you know, s- you know, sleep at a guest house. Um, but then like it would drain my funds really, really fast because I had to, you know, pay like per night. And then some nights I’d just stay up all night. like, um, you know, like, it’s sad because for the first time like, um, felt, I felt, felt homeless, you know? you know?
That’s, that’s the, that’s the correct term, I guess. I was just homeless, you know, just roaming the streets. And then I was thinking to myself like, “What?” I don’t know how to go rent an apartment or a place here because, um, I don’t have the connections. So you don’t know how to talk to people, and you don’t know who to talk to and ask.
And, and a lot of times they won’t rent it to you unless they know that you can, you know, pay them. So, So, you know, you know, you have to, um, have [00:16:00] somebody talk to them. So when I have my friend and she went to talk to them and, um, find out that, um, um, the room was open, and I was able to, you know, rent it. then, then I started, um, um, talking to my grandma back in, um, the US, and then my grandma then found a, a distant cousin of ours.
um, kind of I kind of reached out to them, they don’t live where I live. They live like really, really far up north. So I really talked to them, and then they started pointing directions like, “Oh yeah, you know, you know, we do have some distant cousins here in this, in this village. If you have time, you go visit them.”
So that’s what I do. I, I would, you know, if I could and I have the funds, I would go visit them because they’re not gonna come visit me. You know what I mean?
Niketa Kumar: Mm-hmm
NC (pseudonym): so yeah, I have to go visit them and show them that, “Hey, you know, this is me. Um, I’m here,” and, you know, um- basically like that, but, um, still like like transitioning is still hard because, you know, have to learn the language, you know, practice it, um, every single day and then learn the customs and, and learn how not to get in trouble and stay out of trouble.
Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:17:00] It’s time to come back to Pam, who you heard from in the first episode of My Family. Pam also grew up in California and was incarcerated for 16 years. When Pam first learned that she could be deported after serving her time, she said her parents were shocked. They told her, “There’s nobody over there who can support you, take care of you.
You’ve been here in America all your life. Why does ICE want to send you over there since you already did your time?” She spent a lot of time in the prison law library trying to understand her options to come back home to her parents and her children. Once she paroled, like NC, like NC, ICE came and took her directly to a detention center.
Here’s Pam. Here’s Pam
Pam (pseudonym): It’s pretty much worse than, um, in prison, because if in prison you could walk, you could program, you could [00:18:00] do other stuff.
But in the ICE ICE detainer, you get a yard, hour a day. It’s like you, you’re locked up in prison for, you know, when you get… Getting locked up again. You go, you go into that, the hole. You know, where us prison, we call it the hole, or jail is another way of, you you know, know, expressing it. in 24 hours, you only get a hour of yard time, and it was hard to be being in a dorm with all these people, over 100 people in the dorm.
It was hard. It was hard. But it’s like you’re against the world, and I never felt like that before.
I never felt like I’m against the world before. I have to fight for my life. So that was the first time. Even though I did my prison time, I didn’t feel like I have to fight my life, because I know what I did wrong. But that’s the first time I ever feel like I have to fight for my life just to be alive and [00:19:00] free, either with my family or without my family. So I’m going to another country that I, I never known since I was two years old. I left Cambodia when I was two, and now I’m almost 50. that’s a big old gap, what I’m going to a whole new world. When I first, from ICE detainer, I was nervous, and then I thought they’re gonna take me.
I thought they gonna not deport me at all. I thought they gonna move me to another ICE detainer. And I heard about another ICE detainer is worse, like Texas is worse. But also, even the officer in the detainer won’t even treat you, they don’t treat you like human. your personal property, your family send pictures, they copy your photo and they throw your original one away.
They say, “Oh, you got the copy.” What you mean? it’s not like [00:20:00] person you can have your copy, but they would throw your original. They won’t even save it for you. And then when you’re about to get deported, you have to make sure, you have to, like, be on them about, “Hey, I don’t have no clothes.
Can my family send money? I mean, send boxes for me so I can take my clothes?” Because I have my rights that I can ask for 40-pound box, before I leave. And it took them a long time to process your paper to get, to let your family send stuff like that. And about time you, that you got it, they’re going through every little detail, and then, like, some of your stuff is missing or damaged.
Like, hey, why my, my, stuff is damaged? My son send me a watch, it almost got damaged. Good thing that he, he wrap it with a bunch of clothes, they don’t care about your property. They don’t. They really don’t. So you have to ask them, what can you ha- can, what can your family send you? And sometimes they tell you, “Hey, I can’t get you a box,” they [00:21:00] tell you you’re about to leave, you And sometimes it’s not even true. You end up leaving the next day. So- It’s a lot of, it’s a lot of stuff I was s- I was s- going through it. I never go through… I had never felt like I’m going through a war zone with them. They just not specific with everything. They, they really treat you like you’re not… You never been in United States.
They really treat you like a great straight out prisoner. Even the prison don’t treat you like that. So it’s, it’s hard. It’s hard, tough, and, uh, hopefully, you know, the only thing that keep me going is strong bond with your family. Family, friend, loved ones, like, Any group that help with the deportation, what you have to go through, you know? So that’s the only way that you feel like you don’t have to battle with nothing. You ha- I nev- I never felt like I’m- Dead to the world. it was hard. It was hard. For a whole year sitting in detainer, it was hard.
Medical [00:22:00] was bad.
my brother and sister never seen me cry before on the phone and they’re like, ” If they not gonna accept you, if they said, ‘ Okay, do you wanna appeal?’
we want you to be happy. We want you to be happy. We want you to… The sound, we hear you, you sound like tired, you’re drained, and I think you’re really going through it right now. You’re really going through it, and we just want you to be happy. If you get deported, well, well, now we still love you. We still love you no matter what.”
I was like, “I know,” but I was expect to go home. My son bought a car for me. He bought a car. He bought a car. He’s like, “Mama, you’re not, you’re not getting deported. I got you a Honda Civic already. I got you a car. I got a place for you.” You know how, how, that affect me when your family member bought you stuff, be thinking that you coming home?
It was, it was sad. it hit me hard towards the point that I’m never gonna go home ever again. I’m never gonna step in America [00:23:00] again. That was my part of my experience going through ICE detainer. But when my… when about time when I’m about to leave, I was a little bit excited, a little bit scared because I don’t know what going- gonna happen to me. I don’t know how they’re gonna escort me. Uh, you know, I heard so many bad things how they escort people and how the ICE officer don’t care about you.
A lot of bad things. But I come to find out I was really lucky. I was really lucky. I got three wonderful ICE officer. They helped me. They said, ” Hey, ma’am,” because I got my 40-pound box of clothes. They say, “Ma’am, I need you to tell me what’s really important for you to carry on a plane, and what’s not that important, it’s okay if you lose it because you can go…
We end up, uh, riding two flight. We’re gonna make a stop, so we don’t want nothing to be missing that is very important [00:24:00] to you.” So I got my paperwork in my backpack, and something that’s, you know, so dear to me is my kids’ pictures and letters, and other things. I, my clothes, for real, for real, I only have… I make sure I have one extra pair of clothes in my backpack, too.
And the rest of the stuff I was like, “Okay, as long as I got one pair of clothes, I’m fine.” So- The rest, and you know, you know, they was taking time. They were waiting for our pack or I pack my luggage how, the way I want it. they say, “Go ahead, finish packing your luggage. Put your watch on. Put, this, that on because, you know, as long as…
Then you know, you go through a me- metal detector, I need you to take it off. They say, “We’re not gonna cuff you because you’re gonna fly with us. You’re the only one to fly with us, so make sure you have your socks on, your tennis shoes on. Go ahead, put your shoelace.”
They was like, “Whatever make you comfortable, go ahead. But we’re gonna tell you this, if you cause a scene at the airport, we’re [00:25:00] gonna show you. That’s it. That’s all we’re asking. If you give us a smooth ride, we give you a smooth ride. If you get hungry, you get thirsty, let us know. That’s all we can afford for you.
And if you get sick, we could get you meds. We could take you and get meds, but besides that, like anything you wanna buy or you wanna get, you have… It come out your pocket.” they pretty much make it clear for me, if you try to run, you know we’re gonna catch and slam you down.
So I look at it as where, where, where I’m gonna go? Where am I gonna go? I’m on a whole different flight. Haven’t seen the world for 16 years- So I was like, “Oh, whatever.” I was excited, when I first stepped outside, ICE came to pick me up. I’m not gonna lie, ICE came pick me up a day before I parole. a day before I parole. And then when I got shipped and deported, I was from Washington, Seattle, [00:26:00] and I fly a good… I don’t know how long I fly. I sleep throughout the whole flight. Uh, they only wake me up for my meals. I ate my meal. I get three serving on a plane. Every, you know, it’s not just peanut butter sandwich, I, I get to eat what the commercial people eat.
Uh, Uh, they always ask me what I want, roast chicken or something, rice and chicken. I can’t remember, but the food was good. The food was good. The food was better than prison. And it’s way better than, way better than, ICE detainer. I only woke, I only wake up to eat and use the bathroom, and I barely use the bathroom.
Michelle MiJung Kim: That was three years ago during the Biden administration. Since then, Congress and the Trump administration have supercharged ICE with a two hundred billion dollar budget. Pam reminded us many times [00:27:00] that her story is just one experience, that she’s one of the lucky ones. She knows people who have been shackled the entire flight, blocked from using the bathroom.
News reports have shared how people have been forced to soil their seats because they can’t get up. Others have been held in straitjacket-like devices or endured verbal and physical abuse from agents, from agents. Flights can last multiple days, stopping in four, five, or even seven countries.
When Pam was deported, the only thing she knew about Southeast Asia was a f– was a fruit shr– When Pam was deported, the only thing she knew about Southeast Asia was a fruit shr– was a fruit she remember– Uh. When Pam was deported, the only thing she knew about Southeast Asia was a fruit she remembered liking as a small child.
Since then, Pam has slowly rebuilt her life. She… Since then, sh… Since being deported, Pam has slowly rebuilt her life. She has a job and an apartment. We asked Pam about her home in Cambodia now and how she keeps in touch with her big family back in California.
Pam (pseudonym): Like, a little studio with a little sink, but you have to buy your own furniture. And it just a room. It’s just, like, like, almost like a cell, [00:28:00] but you got windows you can open anytime.
You got doors you could go in and out, and it only cost me $50 a month. So that helps. And my food, oh, you know, you know, in a street vendor, if you go buy a street vendor, a bowl of rice, 1,000 riel. 1,000 riel 25 cent, you get a bowl of rice. the vegetable, I only spend, like, I, I mean, I, I mean, I fill up my whole refrigerator with vegetables and it cost me $20, but it last me for two weeks.
You know? not expensive, but if you don’t have no income from your family, it is expensive. But if you have income from your family, support from the state, all the stuff like that, it’s not that expensive. Because American money and the prices here, my paycheck, I only get 500 a month.
But my 500, I get to save 100 a month because I don’t really [00:29:00] need nothing. All I need is food, some clothes, and pay my bills. That’s it. Pay my phone bills, pay my electricity bill, my water bill, and my rent. So… I, And I, I get to save $100 a month. So for that, I say I see is the state, I work for 16 hours and I can’t even save money.
Mm-hmm. But here, I work for from what? 7 to 5, 10 hours. About 10 hours. But I can save my money. So, and it, I’m not gonna lie, when I was over there at the state, I didn’t get no sleep. I didn’t really get no sleep. I usually get two hours sleep. So I came to Cambodia and I sleep, I never sleep this much in my life.
So I feel like, yeah, I gained some weight. I’m not gonna lie. I’m gonna g- I gain, I gained a few weights. But, but I’m okay. I’m okay. Because why? I got a good family, helps me. Mm-hmm. And my mom, she going through [00:30:00] her own little struggle, but she said… This is the thing about my mom. She would never come to step foot in Cambodia again because she lost, she still trigger from, she lost three daughters in Cambodia during that war.
So she said she love me, she care about me, she wish I was in United States, but as much as she love me, she would never willing to step back into Cambodia. So that hurts in a way, but I also I have to understand what she go through as a mother losing her own child, three of her child before I was b- even born.
I have to understand how she go, what she go through.
The only thing that’s different is the time. I told my family, call me at 3:00 o’clock in the morning because I’ll be up getting ready for work, this and that.
I can still put you… You know, I can still talk to you while I’m doing stuff [00:31:00] So that’s what me, my family have a deal. from between 3:00 in the morning to 7:00 in the morning that I could talk to them before my class start, before I start working or whatever. And sometime, you know, when I first got here, I got my phone you know, uh, from Washington because they the one that has people fly over here, people from the group, they fly over here because my son send a phone with them to give it to me.
I still don’t know how the mailing process. I still working on that, how people send stuff from United States to Cambodia. I still don’t know that. I finally know how my family send money to me once in a while. Before, they didn’t have Western Union, they only have MoneyGram. So now they finally have Western Union for us.
two months ago they just finally opened a Western Union, and I don’t know how that works. I don’t know if it works really good or not. I was scared to [00:32:00] try My family try and make everything a negative turn into a positive. You know, try to keep me company and keep me, like, we just wanna s- we just wanna see you free, you happy. they hook me up with, on the Facebook.
They said, ” You know, whenever you got time, wherever you go to do new places, I want you to take video. We wanna see where you at.”
Michelle MiJung Kim: Pam told us that she’s learned to stay busy to take care of her mental health. When she first arrived in Cambodia, she thought to herself, “I need to start crocheting and get some yarn.” Crocheting helps her mental health and to stay strong. Before we continue, I invite you to take a deep breath with me Today, more and more people are sharing their outrage at the inhumane, at the inhumane and cruel conditions of ICE detention.
But this brutality didn’t just start this year. But [00:33:00] this brutality didn’t just start this year. People have been, people have been enduring and pushing for change in the community for a long time. People have been enduring and pushing for change in the community for a long… People have been enduring and pushing for change in the community for a long time.
To help share how, we spoke with Tony, who was first detained by ICE nearly 27 years ago in Los Angeles. He’s still fight, he’s still fighting to keep his family to– He’s still fighting to keep his family together
Tony (pseudonym): Um, my first time I, you know, went to a immigration detention center was back in October of 1999. Went there, you know, you know, for doing a county lid in Los Angeles, California. You know, we call it a county lid because it’s, you know, we took a plea bargain for one year of county time. And I did, like, eight month and 20 day.
From there like, before I got released, ICE came and interviewed me, told me that I got immigration hold, and they will, uh, you know, come and pick me up or detain me and, you know, take me to the processing and all kind, you know. Because, um, I got order to removal. So when I got to ICE in October of ’99, two weeks later I went to court you know, we just [00:34:00] got a court hearing.
There’s no lawyer, no nothing to represent you at all. You just in there solo bolo with the judge, and they ask you, you know, you know, um, how you plea or do you wanna fight your case, or you know, to sign the paperwork for final removal to get, you know, deported back to whatever country we from.
you know, that time it was my first experience going to ICE detention center, so first thing in my head is, like, “No, I’m not going back to my country without a fight.” So, you know, I called my family. They got me a lawyer, and I fought it for a good six month. That’s when, you know, the court make the final decision that I still getting deported.
And it was tough, you know, for my family to come up with the lawyer fee money and stuff, because during that time when I was, uh, incarcerated at, um, at the ICE detention center, there’s no pro bono lawyer, no orientation, any, i- any uh, uh, support group to help us at all. We just in there like a sitting duck, and everybody was going [00:35:00] through h- like, you know.
The feeling of that is more harder than, you know, being locked up in a, in a jail cell or, uh, or doing, you know, doing life, because there’s no release date, and they just like, they drain you all of all your hope and everything. And then, you know. And throughout the whole time, you know, people At the detention center, they went from a normal person to, you know, people go there. At the detention center, they went from a normal to, need mental health issue.
That’s how stressful it is. you know, from there, you know, I stayed there for a good 11 month until people start, like, you know, filing habeas corpus, and they slowly granted us, each one of us, a habeas corpus to go home
So, you know, you know, those are the worst experience I have ever had, and my family was like, you know, keep on asking me, you know, you know, “What’s the next step? What’s the w- what should they do?” I tell them, you know, you know, “Just save your money.” You know, since we lost the case already, “Save your money, you know, just in case I get deported, uh, you know, I have something to start a new life with back in Vietnam even though I don’t have no family and I don’t even have no family over [00:36:00] there, and I don’t even know nothing about Vietnam because I left the country when I was 10 years old.”
it was just like, you know Hard for me to, you know, you know, be far away from my my f- my brother, my sister, and my dad, ’cause, you know, I grew up with a single parent. My mom passed away when I was five years old. My dad raised all four of them, my si- you know, you know, me and my sibling all by himself. So it just emotion and everything washed in, it’s just like, you know, heartbreaking.
So every time, you know, when my dad come to visit me, he always break down and cry because he just like, you know, like, you know, feel sad that his oldest son is gonna get shipped back to his country. that’s my experience from being in an ICE detention center
After I got out, it’s like, you know, they make… They put me on ICE supervision. I started out with, you know, go and check, go check in once a month, from once a month to every three month.
But the feeling of going there to check in is like, you sitting there, each time you go check in, you sitting there, it’s like, you know, you got like a weird [00:37:00] feeling, like a butterfly in your stomach, makes you stress, oh, it’s like, “Oh, are they gonna detain me and ship me back?” And all kind of stuff washing in.
It’s like, it’s just like the mind game they’re playing with you when you’re on supervision. Even though, you know, back in the day, you know, my country, they still don’t accept people to go back or, you know, or anything. But it’s just a feeling that’s like, hey, you know, the law could change. Anything could happen, and it just like, like, you know, slowly break you down inside and outside.
‘
Tony (pseudonym): once you’re in ICE detention center, they don’t care you have any health issue at all.
Whatever medication they give you is not even, you know, What we call it is like, you know, genetic like, you know, medication, the dose or whatever treatment is not even there. uh, , you have to sign up on um, like a doctor waiting list for you to go see a doctor or s- to go get a checkup.
Because the only way that you g- you get any, um, you know, medical attention is when you drop, when you drop right there on the spot in front of them. [00:38:00] That’s the fastest way for them to, you know, show you me- medical attention. Other than that, we just like, you know, animal locked in a cage, you know. That’s why a lot of people, like, you know, you know, they go on there, they have health issues and stuff, and some, you know, end up, you know, being sick and, you know, die or, you know, or their, you know, health condition get worse because we don’t have the fair treatment like, you know, to help us at all.
I have to fight for my, you know, my life every single day because, you know, you know, I got diagnostic with a heart failure back in June of 2018, a day after my son was born. And I went to the emergency room three, uh, three different time. The first time they didn’t detect that I have a health issue or anything at all.
They just, you know, prescribed me some medication. ‘Cause I went there, I told them I have, uh, I got food poison. And, uh, you know, all they concentrates on are the food poison. But I told them I have this you know, like shortness of breath, my legs all, you know, swollen [00:39:00] up. I could not walk more than, you know, 20 step and stuff without, you know, have to take a break.
But I guess the, whatever, you know, the nurse and the doctor, they didn’t d- you know, catch that symptom at all, so… so… they just send me home, prescribed me some medication. And then the second time I went back, same thing. Just give me more medication. Until the third time I went in, I I got, I didn’t even get admitted.
I was still in the gurney waiting for them to do all the testing. Less than 30 minutes later, they came back and told me that I was diagnosed sick with a heart failure, and they have to drain out all the liquor from my body because my body was puffed up like a puffer fish. I was, uh, hospital life for two months fighting for my life because my, um, my heartbeat function, faction, function or faction went down to 12%.
So I have to, you know, breathe, you know, inhale, exhale, do a breathing machine like, you know, for at least a [00:40:00] month for me to get, you know, my strength back and everything.
After I got discharged from the hospital, they don’t wanna be uh, like, liability for me to drive like an hour like and 20 minutes just to go check in. So they want me to do like, like, you know, call them every six months to check in, I’ve been doing that for the past three years already.
But each time I call them to check in, my heart, you know, it just like stop beeping. Like, you know, my heartbeat just stop just to wait for them to say, “Okay, call me back this, this and that date.” You know, and then ever since, you know, Trump became the president, he make everything more worse. And each time, you know, you know, I call just like, like, you know, I get more worry and scared and paranoid
Because it will be hard and everything ’cause you don’t even know, we don’t even know nothing about that country anymore because we get so adapted to the, you know, the environment over here in the United State.
And some of us, you know, you know, might get like, you know, emotional [00:41:00] breakdown and everything when, when, when that day come and, you know, ’cause there’s so many uh, thing going through our head. all we have to do is just, you know, be, be sharp, strong-minded, and and, you know, just have faith And to our family, you know, we just have to pray for the best, and hopefully, you know, you know, the, you know, hopefully down the, down the road, you know, new law change and, you know, the bars that, you know, they deport us back, we could come back, you know, in future, maybe 5 or 10 years down.
You never know. you know, we just have to pray for the best and stick together. Don’t- Don’t give up all hopes and, you know, fight for your freedom
I think what have changed is that, you know, right now you know, people are fighting back and s- you know, ’cause they lost a lot. You know, we lost like, you know, loved one, family members, you know. Um, you know. Um, some lost their parents due to, you know, you know, ICE. And I’m happy, you know, all this you know, all the support group are, you [00:42:00] know, you know, coming out to support the, you know, their own people.
Even though, you know, is they’re not a- you know, you know, like from Southeast Asia, but, you know, we all human being. We have to, you know, stick together and treat each other equally and fairly. Because, you know, when you in ICE detention center, they treat you like animal. They don’t care, you know? Sometime when we got feed, you know, you know, in the middle…
Like outside section was fully cooked, but the middle section was still raw, and then we complained. It’s “Hey, you know, that’s all you have. You eat, either you eat it or you starve.” That’s it. And I’m happy, you know, you know, a lot of have changed, and for us you know, to g- see the better future we all, every, each one of us and our community have to stick together and help each other, you know, as one and be u- you know, united and fight against, you know, whatever is wrong.
Michelle MiJung Kim: According to the latest analysis by the University of Southern California Equity Research Institute, ICE arrests of Asian [00:43:00] and Pacific Islander Californians increased by over 1,000% between 2024 and 2025. A link to this data is included in our show notes. When we talked to Tony, he emphasized the need for solidarity within and across communities as we grapple with immeasurable toll on families, neighborhoods, businesses, schools, and on every thread in the fabric of what makes our lives.
Before we end this episode, I wanna bring in Elijah Chhum, who leads New Light Wellness, one of the community groups Tony mentioned. Who leads New Light Wellness, one of the community groups Tony mentioned. New Light Wellness works closely with the Asian Prisoner Support Committee and other California groups to serve Southeast Asian communities impacted by deportation.
Here’s Elijah.
Elijah Chhum: in 2019, that is when Trump 1.0, um, the administration was really targeting our Cambodian families, um, and targeting them for detention and detainment and deportation, and that is when I joined the [00:44:00] movement.
And I really have to thank the leaders of Asian Prisoner Support Committee, the lawyers of Asian Law Caucus, the faith healers and interfaith healers of Interfaith Movement for Human Integrity, and of course, the wives and mothers and children of the directly impacted folks, um, that came to CERI. And we all coalesced in this moment, um, in February and March, and particularly on March 6th of 2019 when we all came to CERI, which was this old Victorian house in East Oakland, um, by Clinton Park, and we all met in the living room ’cause it was, it was a, uh, community center that was basically in a three-bedroom apartment, um, on the second floor of a Victorian house in East Oakland.
And so 60 of us gathered together all in a circle, um, on the living room floor of CERI, and we were [00:45:00] doing political education. We were listening to elders talk about genocide and talk about resettlement, and then now fearing the worst, that, that this government, you know, this… in America, that they could also endure family separation.
Um, and so that was the moment that changed our lives and changed my life, and that began the seed of New Light Wellness, but at that moment, we were just, you know, um, healers and, and mental health practitioners, um, that tried to provide wraparound care and mutual aid, um, for families also impacted by deportation, um, and that felt isolated at that time.
New Light Wellness emerged as our own organization in the summer of July 2024. We were first a project that was, um, part of a seed grant from New Breath Foundation around the year 2020. And at that moment, um, after… And this was during the pandemic. A little bit before that, you know, in 2019 as I [00:46:00] mentioned, we were first just starting to give wraparound care for impacted families.
Um, during that time, while we were holding the, uh, four impacted individuals and their families in the Pardon Refugee campaign, um, in those three to four months of actions, our- those four community members were detained, um, and most likely were going to be deported. Um, through our advocacy with all the different organizations, as I mentioned, um, which was, you know, bilingual sessions in political education, art builds, uh, getting resolutions passed at city, city council meetings and board of supervisor meetings, um, signing petitions, creating support letter templates, uh, going to the capital and advocating at- with electeds, um,
um, so all of that built our confidence that we can continue to do this and be intentional about this, and focus on anti-deportation and give wraparound care. And so in some ways we felt like we were filling a gap, um, and a need in the movement. And so our work of New [00:47:00] Light Wellness, um, now going to 2020, this was during the pandemic.
We were all trying to scramble how to still give care to… and a community in, you know, in East and West Oakland, um, that so desperately needed us. Um, so we couldn’t stop work. Um, we had to pivot and find ways to, to, um, actually adopt Zoom and give telehealth and connect folks and get our elders to, um- Learn how to use the app and y- learn how to unmute and mute and all the things that, uh, we’re doing now.
Um, and during this moment, um, as we were learning and honing our skills in, you know, virtual telehealth, you know, spaces, um, we received this seed grant from New Breath Foundation just to start something, some virtual program to, um, to focus on folks that do end up getting deported and living in Cambodia.
And around 2020, um, you know, there’s 18 years has passed since, uh, there was a s- uh, since the [00:48:00] Repatriation Act between Cambodia and the US was signed. So for 18 years, our community members have been deported and lived in Cambodia. Um, of course, there has been organizations, uh, on the ground that support folks, um, living in Cambodia, and there are, there have been movements that have come and gone to try to bring people back, um, and fighting their case or reopening their cases.
Um, and at the same time, um- There was a delegation called kites to Southeast Asia, um, composed of different Southeast Asian orgs based in the US that went and did a listening tour. And when they came back, um, their report back was really that they needed or they saw that mental health and wellness was something that was missing, um, as a resource in Cambodia.
And so with New Breath Foundation, the seed grant was please start some type of mental health or wellness support, uh, for folks in Cambodia. And, you know, mental [00:49:00] health is, is a word and, um, a service that is, is often used by licensed clinicians. Um, and, you know, traditional therapy can only be done, um, within the licensure of that licensed clinician within, you know, the state.
And, and so it was really hard for us to then see who, who could offer, offer this wellness support or healing support, and how do we not use mental health or the term mental health, and how do we… And if, if we’re not using licensed or getting the support of licensed clinicians to hold wellness space, then, then what are we doing?
And, and so we really adopted a peer specialist model, a community health outreach worker model, and now it’s evolving to a wellness coaching model. And, and so what are the kinds of things we can do and offer across the seas that is still accountable and responsible to the folks we’re serving,
though we’re not crossing the lines of what is traditional therapy?
Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:50:00] New Light Wellness has grown so much since 2020. We’ll hear even more about their work after a short break.
We’ll hear even more about their work after a short break. You’ve been listening to music by Joe Sin and the Angkor Wat Band. Joe is an elder in Oakland and a leader in the Khmer community. Let’s hear some more [00:51:00] Welcome back.
That was Joe Sin and the Angkor Wat Band.
In our next episode, Elijah will share more about New Light Wellness’s work in California. For now, I asked him to tell us more about the organization’s new community center in designed specifically for people who have been deported from the US
Elijah Chhum: when we hold spaces with our New Light Wellness support groups, and we hold spaces in person at events and in villas and, and, you know, and, you know, we close the door or shut the gate and, you know, our folks are safe inside, they feel at ease.
They feel like they can show off their tattoos or, you know, eat their burgers and fries or have their kids run around and speak English openly and without judgment. Um, so those, just for those few hours that they’re accepted as who they are. Um, and so I know that in Cambodia there needs to be some kind of narrative change and narrative shift so that the local community can understand what [00:52:00] our impacted community went through, what our 1.5 generation went through.
Because in the eyes of the local community in Cambodia, they believe the US is so just and so fair. And so to be deported, they believe and judge our community members for doing something so egregious, um, that they deserved to be deported. And so it’s, it’s a hard conversation, and it’s a hard conversation that our local community has to either be prepared to have or to avoid or, um…
And then sometimes, um- You know, it could be very risky, um, and it could be very negative to have these conversations, especially at, at a place like a workplace. And we’ve heard s- situations where students Google the, um, you know, a lot of our folks get teaching jobs, and, um, the students are very curious about the teacher, of course, ’cause that’s how youth are.
Um, and now we live in an internet age, and, you know, deportation isn’t this, um, you know, marginalized story any longer. It’s very much in the [00:53:00] open, especially in Trump 2.0. So the youth in Cambodia are, are savvy enough to Google folks’ names or, you know, look people up by their images, and they may even out our, our community members, even in the classroom in front of their, in front of the other students.
So, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of different experiences when it, when it comes to our folks facing society in Cambodia. And, you know, some folks may say just to assimilate, that is the best way. You know, be as Cambodian as possible. Cover up your tattoos. Speak Khmer. Marry a Khmer partner. Have Khmer children.
You know, try to let go of all your tastes. Um, and that can help, and that can and has worked for some, but not for everyone. And the road to acceptance of, you know, their fate or the road to acceptance that they are there, the road to healing and even being held a space for grief, the grief of their identity, a grief of loss of, you know, family [00:54:00] relationships, um, is also part of this.
Um, so it’s not a one-size-fits-all, um, for any community member. I think it’s just offering space for folks to hear many stories, actually, um, and different experiences, and it may not be your experience that you have when you arrive in Cambodia. Um, but to honor that, you know, previously, since 2002, some p- some people did not have any resources, so it’s really honoring those that have really survived and lived in Cambodia, some of them for over 20 years now.
And so in some ways, folks that have been deported more recently, um, gets the benefit from, um, the lived experiences and the traumas of those that, that came before them. And so I think it’s learning and relearning together, um, from all the different experiences and honoring those stories of survival, um, and honoring the leadership of those that came before us.
Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:55:00] [00:56:00] Thank you for joining us for this episode of “My Family,” a project by APEX Express and the Asian Prisoner Support Committee. I invite you to move into the rest of your day by taking a moment to honor the stories of survival and the resilience of those fighting the oppressive systems today. The music in today’s program is by Joe Sin, a Khmer elder in California, and the Angkor Wat Band, and the Angkor Wat Band, and one of our favorite songs by Thao.
We’ll include links to these songs and additional resources at kpfa.org/program/APEX-express and asianprisonersupport.com. We hope you’ll join us for the final episode of “My Family” where we’ll deep dive into what happens when people are [00:57:00] forced to move to a country they’ve never known.
Thank you for listening, and we’ll see you next time on “My Family.” I’m your host, Michelle MiJung Kim, and this podcast is brought to you by APEX Express and the Asian Prisoner Support Committee. APEX Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam.
Have a great night, and see you next time
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