10 - Cult Expert Dr. Janja Lalich on How We Became the "Perfect Followers"

This interview is with Shelley Carroll (formerly Lowther) who has been one of the first Baptiste affiliate studio owners to publicly bow out of Baptiste Yoga and tell you why in this conversation. Alos be sure to read her blog post from Feb. 2022 entitled "Call your Dad, you're in a yoga cult": https://dancingdogsyoga.com/blog/call-your-dad-youre-in-a-yoga-cult Shelley shows that it can be done, step away from harmful practices, apologize for harm done, take accountability and do better moving forward. Thank you Shelley for sharing your courage with us! Bio: Shelley is a future expatriate but current Atlantian. She is the founder of Dancing Dogs Yoga, the DDY Yoga School, and DDY Travels. Shelley has trained hundreds of yoga teachers world-wide and is passionate about creating teachers and leaders to share the practice of yoga. Shelley is a Chopra Center Certified Ayurvedic Practitioner and runs DDY Travels, a yoga travel retreat company with curated yoga and wellness retreats around the globe.  A self-described activist, Shelley went from a volunteer with ACLU to running the ACLU of Georgia’s Legal Observer Program, where she trained and deploys legal observers in cases of protests, civic actions, and elections. Shelley is a kale-smoothie-drinking, goal-smashing junkie who believes in people and community. When she isn’t traveling the globe or saving democracy with the ACLU, Shelley lives in historic Reynoldstown in Atlanta, GA with her awesome dog, Holli and can often be found drinking coffee, eating pickles, and strolling the Beltline.

What a treat to start our season 2 with A Little Bit Culty podcast hosts (and NXIVM cult survivors) Sarah Edmonson and Nippy Ames! Sarah Edmondson is a Canadian actress who has starred in the CBS series Salvation and more than twelve films for the Hallmark Channel and Lifetime. She is also a well-established voice-over artist for popular series such as Transformers: Cybertron and My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. In 2005, when NXIVM, a personal and professional development company, promised to provide the tools and insight Sarah needed to reach her potential, she was intrigued. Over her twelve-year tenure, she went from student to coach and eventually operated her own NXIVM center in Vancouver. Questions kept coming up about the organization’s rules and practices, which came to a head in 2017 when she accepted an invitation from her best friend to join DOS, a “secret sisterhood” within NXIVM. In 2019, Sarah published Scarred: The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, the Cult that Bound My Life, with Kristine Gasbarre. In this tell-all memoir, she shares her story from the moment she takes her first seminar to her harrowing fight to get out. Her full story as a whistleblower is featured in the CBC podcast Uncover: Escaping NXIVM  (downloaded over 25 million times) and The Vow, the critically acclaimed HBO documentary series on NXIVM. Now with the launch of “A Little Bit Culty,” Sarah and her co-host/husband Anthony “Nippy” Ames are keeping the conversation going by discussing the healing process with the help of experts and fellow survivors. As an aspiring actor and former college athlete, Anthony “Nippy” Ames was drawn to NXIVM’s goals program. In his 12 years with the organization, he rose steadily up the ranks as a teacher, built centers in New York and Vancouver, and even met his now wife, “A Little Bit Culty” co-host Sarah Edmondson there. But when he learned that the company was, in fact, a dangerous cult, he wasted no time in doing exactly what needed to be done: helping burn its carefully constructed public image to the ground. With NXIVM’s notorious founder now behind bars facing a brisk 120-year sentence, Nippy isn’t planning on going quiet anytime soon. As Executive Producer of the “A Little Bit Culty” podcast, Nippy has come full circle back to what he was born to do: performing, creating, and truth telling. He’s proving to be an emerging voice in the conversation around what it means to be an upstanding man, husband, and father in 2021.

Trigger Warning: this episode contains content about sex trafficking. Please take care of your needs regarding this topic or skip this episode if this topic is triggering for you.   Recruiting and grooming sexual partners, weeding out critics, using harassment and coercion, encouraging others to take expensive courses to further control them are all reasons that prosecutions have proceeded in court in other cases. Listen and hear how some real cases could potentially bring these crimes to justice. What laws are in place to protect women from abuse?  Listen and learn about what is actually sex trafficking and how it is happening when people put trust into a leader and an organization. It really makes you look at how people have been used and how the law can actually protect them. There are tools for survivors to use Civil Law for federal crimes. "Masha's Law" is written into Title 18 where all the Federal crimes are located. It gives survivors the power to bring their own civil lawsuits against sex offenders who may have abused or exploited them, even if it wasn't reported and police did not arrest. The survivor can still go after that offender. It covers sex trafficking (a broad expansive federal crime meant to protect victims of exploitative abuse) includes "enticement" either in person or online. It's very powerful but also under-used. More than forced prostitution, the federal definition qualifies: makes it illegal for someone to participate in a venture (2 or more people) that uses force, fraud or coercion to subject the victim to engage in a commercial sex act (defined as "in exchange for anything of value" including but not limited to: a free training; moving up in the organization; benefit or status -- and does not have to be a direct contract) or if it's a minor, even if there is no force or coercion needed. Even "demanding absolute commitment" to the leader, or inducing shame and guilt to control the members and their behavior. If you think you may have experienced sexual coercion, abuse or trafficking contact here for support:    www.advocatesforsurvivors.com and https://www.Vanessabaehrjones.com  Special guest: Vanessa Baehr-Jones Founding partner of Advocates for Survivors of Abuse a woman-owned law firm specializing in seeking justice for survivors of sexual abuse, exploitation, and trafficking Vanessa spent nearly a decade prosecuting child sex offenders and securing restitution for survivors. As the Project Safe Childhood coordinator in Los Angeles, she managed intake of all child exploitation cases in the seven-county district. After leaving Los Angeles, Vanessa served as a federal prosecutor in Northern California, providing expertise on child exploitation and trafficking cases. A skilled trial and appellate attorney, she is fearless in seeking the best outcomes for her clients. Vanessa earned her B.A. summa cum laude from Tufts University, and then served as an intelligence officer for the Defense Intelligence Agency. She holds a law degree from UCLA School of Law. She is a member of the National Crime Victims Bar Association and the American Association for Justice. About Vanessa: https://www.advocatesforsurvivors.com/advocates _____________________________________  ***The views and opinions expressed on Journey Into Yoga Cults are just that: views and opinions; and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast or the hosts. Stories told by hosts and guests are their own personal experiences, viewpoints and perspective. Any content provided by our hosts, guests, sponsors or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, institution, corporation, business, individual, anyone or anything.*** (thank you @alittlebitculty for letting us borrow your very awesome legal disclaimer)

You asked, we answered. Thank you so much for writing into us and sharing your stories, questions and topic ideas. We are listening. A peek into this conversation: how to protect people from Baron, real talk about "affiliate studios" businesses, the lack of support from Baron and "The Institute" but lots of encouragement to open open open an affiliate studio, to BE A YES to opening a yoga studio with no concern for the cost or the reality of how you need to be business wise to succeed in this market... and what to do if you are employed by a Baptiste affiliate and you are questioning the harmful practices? How to keep teaching yoga and what to teach in order to stop being harmful and stop perpetuating Baptiste Yoga. Is it possible to still teach for an affiliate and not perpetuate harm? Good questions! Let's talk about it and let us know your thoughts. @yogacultspod Resources mentioned in the conversation: The real history of yoga.  Article: https://www.yogajournal.com/yoga-101/history-of-yoga/10-things-didnt-know-yoga-history/ Books: Roots of Yoga (Penguin Classics) Mallinson, James Sir Yoga Body: The Origins of Modern Posture Practice Singleton, Mark _____________________________________ ***The views and opinions expressed on Journey Into Yoga Cults are just that: views and opinions; and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast or the hosts. Stories told by hosts and guests are their own personal experiences, viewpoints and perspective. Any content provided by our hosts, guests, sponsors or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, institution, corporation, business, individual, anyone or anything.*** (thank you @alittlebitculty for letting us borrow your very awesome legal disclaimer)

We are thrilled to give you this episode with Rachel Bernstein! Bernstein is a therapist in LA specializing in cult recovery and has worked With India Oxenberg in her healing from the NXIVM cult as well as her mother, Catherine Oxenberg. Her popular podcast, IndoctriNATION has had over 900K listens from all over the world and features regular people who are healing from cults, high control groups and narcissistic relationships. Join us in the conversation as Bernstein helps us to understand how Baptiste Yoga is a system of control and what steps to take to heal from the influence so we don't join another culty group or relationship again. Rachel Bernstein, MSed, LMFT, has been working with former cult members for nearly 30 years. She is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, and Educator, who lives in Los Angeles, CA. She has been a member of ICSA for many years and has presented talks and moderated panels at ICSA conferences. Rachel previously ran the Maynard Bernstein Resource Center on cults, named after her father. She was the Clinician at the former Cult Clinic in Los Angeles, as well as the Cult Hotline and Clinic in Manhattan. She now treats former cult members and the families and friends of those in cults in her private practice. Rachel has facilitated numerous support groups for former cult members, for people who were in one-on-one cults, and for the families of those in cults. Rachel has published many articles, made media appearances, consulted on shows and movies about cults, and has been interviewed for podcasts and YouTube videos. Rachel is the host of her weekly Podcast, "IndoctriNation," about breaking free from systems of control. RachelBernsteinTherapy.com, [email protected] 818-907-0036 _____________________________________ ***The views and opinions expressed on Journey Into Yoga Cults are just that: views and opinions; and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast or the hosts. Stories told by hosts and guests are their own personal experiences, viewpoints and perspective. Any content provided by our hosts, guests, sponsors or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, institution, corporation, business, individual, anyone or anything.*** (thank you @alittlebitculty for letting us borrow your very awesome legal disclaimer)

"I'll Fuck Your Head Off!"  "I'm over here, Gino is over there. My seeing of Gino is happening out there where I am not. There is no 8" Gino in my head" - Baron Baptiste Does this sound like advanced-level facilitator training content to you? Well, believe it or not this (and more!) is what we learned in the first “Facilitator In Training” in 2014 (now known as Fit to Lead). 28 of us paid $10K each for the promise that we would be trained directly by Baron to be the successors of the “Baptiste Legacy”, able by the end of the 2-year, 8 weekend-long training, to lead Baptiste programs. We were nervous, excited but quickly learned we were about to get NOTHING we signed up for and could not have imagined how horribly abusive Baron would turn out to be. All names except Baron Baptiste have been changed to preserve peoples’ privacy and to keep the focus where it belongs - on Baron. There are so many stories of public humiliation and abuse, including “Liam”  (international yoga teacher)shredded by Baron for (private) pot useage, getting help from his parents and his use of the term “hotel motel, holiday inn” to describe a yoga black. Baron required participation in 40 days because he thought we needed to lose weight; “CEO” had us create content for free that BY then turned around and SOLD to the general public. As part of our training… We PAID Baron to create content!! A rich drunk participant was praised while a sincere grown man was berated to the point of tears… a person who could not speak English well was made to believe (by Baron) that they could potentially lead programs; speech about your most embarrassing moment; name change, bait-and-switch; addition of Tier 4, teacher at Yoga Journal (pay), creating the content; creating more programs for them to use and charge community members for the programs.“Colleen you’re fucked”. - Baron. The Exorcism of Rick performed by Baron; If this episode doesn’t f*ck your head off, we don’t know what will?! About the second FIT group and beyond… (Chelle) enrolling more and more people after our FIT… and so much more! Please leave us a 5 star review and DM us at @yogacultspod "Integrity: Without it Nothing Works" - Michael C. Jensen https://bit.ly/3ubKPrE

We are hearing the ripple effects of this podcast and not afraid to tawk about it!  Grab your cawwwwffee and get ready we're tawwking about you - people who don't listen to victims and double down to defend your own benefits... In this episode we talk about people who are publicly buckling down hard defending Baptiste Yoga and Baron instead of listening to those who are telling their true stories of harm. We talk about how to respond to these people until wait -- they blocked me and erased my comments anyway???!!!! In other words...  "I’m going to ignore your harm and let me tell you how great it is for me!" We hear your "I’ve got mine-ism.” We talk about the latest ALBC episode about Bentinho Massaro's cult and the whistleblowers saying “I never imagined people would not believe me.” We can relate! Do you think they believe us or not? They were our friends. Or they said they were. “The good outweighs the bad.”  (file under 'things cult members say') People are listening to our podcast in their yoga teacher training! The discussions hopefully raise awareness and questions... "Can you still use the methodology and not do harm?"   "Does the good outweigh the bad?"   "Do the ends justify the means?" "If you’re paying attention to people who have been abused, can you still justify it?" Other cawwwffee cult tawwwlk tawwwwpics include: What do I do now… I teach at an affiliate, how do I talk to the studio owners? What is the answer? What do I teach now? Should I even teach JIP anymore? "I Got Mine-ism" galore. If it didn't happen to you did it even happen? Ugh! Talking about people who credit Baron for their success. How did we personally transition out of Baptiste and how did we begin the healing process? All this and more! Also send us your Q's for our upcoming Q & A episode DM us at @yogacultspod on IG or send us a voice message here https://anchor.fm/yogacultspod1029/message

Listen to our mind-blowing conversation with Dr. Lalich and we describe in detail the process of going through Baptiste training and her explanation of how it's deliberately designed to make us into "perfect little followers" and pretty soon taking on the doctrine of the group as our own. We have learned to commit and not speak out so any red flags we see are put on a "shelf" until one day the shelf breaks and we start to untangle and question everything. Classic techniques used since the 60's and 70's birth of the Large Group Awareness Trainings (LGAT) era have been re-purposed by Baron and Baptiste Yoga which are touted as "self-help" are actually designed to cause self abuse and train the participant to abuse and gaslight themselves using the "tools" learned in the trainings. Learn how to not "cult-hop" from one high control group to another by recognizing the sign and techniques used by many different types of cult-like groups. Janja Lalich, Ph.D. is a researcher, author, and educator specializing in cults and extremist groups, with a particular focus on charismatic relationships, political and other social movements, ideology and social control, and issues of gender and sexuality. She has been a consultant to educational, mental health, business, media, and legal professionals, as well as having worked with current members, former members, and families of members of controversial groups. A former Fulbright scholar, Dr. Lalich is Professor Emerita of Sociology at California State University, Chico, where in 2007 she was awarded the Professional Achievement Honor. Also, Dr. Lalich is the founder and director of the Center for Research on Influence and Control. She received a B.A. with Honors from the University of Wisconsin, Madison. She has a Master’s in Human Development and a Ph.D. in Human and Organizational Systems from Fielding Graduate University in Santa Barbara, California. Dr. Lalich has written and lectured extensively and is author, coauthor, or editor of numerous books, articles, and chapters. Her most recent book is Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships (Bay Tree Publishing, 2006), a fully-revised and expanded edition of her first book, Captive Hearts, Captive Minds, which has been the number-one book used by former cult members and their friends and families to better understand cult experiences and their consequences. Another of her recent publications is the critically acclaimed Bounded Choice: True Believers and Charismatic Cults (University of California Press, 2004), based on her research on the Heaven’s Gate cult, the group that committed collective suicide in 1997, and her own 10+ years’ experience in a political cult, the San Francisco-based Democratic Workers Party. Most importantly, this book puts forth Dr. Lalich’s “bounded choice” theory, which offers a new approach for understanding the dynamics of “self-sealed” groups and the true-believer phenomenon. Resources: Follow Janja Lalich @janja_lalich Books: Take Back Your Life; Bounded Choice, Escaping Utopia, Captive Hearts, Captive Minds, Cults in Our Midst Take Back Your Life Recovery https://www.tbylr.com/ Shows Janja has appeared in: The Lost Women of NXIVM; Seduced; Cults & Extreme Beliefs Mentioned in this episode: Karma Cola (book) "what happens when the traditions of an ancient and long-lived society are turned into commodities and sold to those who don't understand them"  https://www.amazon.com/Karma-Cola-Marketing-Vintage-International-ebook/dp/B007SGM28W Kumaré (movie) https://kumaremovie.com/synopsis.php

Threats of Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDAs) and Cease and Desist letters from attorneys are designed to bully and silence would-be whistler blowers. Could that be why so many people are speaking underground about Baptiste Yoga and so many women have stories to share about Baron but are afraid to go public? Attorney and former Baptiste Yoga teacher Eva Sedgwick explains why these tactics are lame attempts to scare us into silence and why they cannot hold up in a court of law. Also, Eva tells her own story and experience with Baptiste Yoga, why she got out after being publicly defamed by Baron in front of hundreds of people and never looked back. Eva then breaks down the difference between defamation and speaking the truth or giving your opinion about a "Public figure" which falls under freedom of speech and is what we do here in this podcast. For any women who have been seduced by Baron while a student or training participant, Eva offers resources for Pro Bono (free) attorneys who will represent women in a case where Baptiste Yoga finally has it's #metoo moment.  About our special guest: Eva Sedgwick is an associate professor of business law in the Albers School of Business and Economics at Seattle University. She has been teaching and writing about business and technology and how they intersect with human rights and social justice for over 20 years. Her work is published in such journals as the Stanford Technology Law Review and the American Business Law Journal. Eva has been recognized frequently for her innovative teaching. Teaching is Eva’s passion and vocation. At Seattle University she teaches undergraduates and graduate students in topics such as business law, negotiation skills and law and ethics in business analytics/Artificial Intelligence. Eva is also a yoga teacher. She received her original yoga alliance certification after completing levels 1 and 2 with the Baptiste Power Yoga Institute. In 2019 she stepped back into training and completed her 240 hours of trauma-informed yoga teacher training with Yogamour, a nonprofit yoga organization in Maryland whose mission it is to bring yoga and mindfulness practices as an adjunct therapy for communities in trauma. When she is visiting Maryland, Eva teaches power vinyasa classes at Yogamour’s affiliated studio. She is a former yoga instructor in Seattle at BeLuminous Yoga and Shakti Vinyasa Yoga.  NEW Baptiste policies just release this week and seem suspiciously in response to our podcast and the issues we have discussed.... Baptiste Yoga buckling down to protect the man and the organization, instead of actually making changes where harm is being done. Buyer beware of any "program" you enroll in: https://www.baptisteyoga.com/terms-conditions-agreement/?fbclid=IwAR2V7HJTWCSHPzpPrhC3wNfLCJYdszCSGgMpM4ZPUfy16BtJEbXtfCJvAO0 Questions about this episode or stories to share? Contact us on IG @yogacultspod _____________________________________ ***The views and opinions expressed on Journey Into Yoga Cults are just that: views and opinions; and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast or the hosts. Stories told by hosts and guests are their own personal experiences, viewpoints and perspective. Any content provided by our hosts, guests, sponsors or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, institution, corporation, business, individual, anyone or anything.*** (thank you @alittlebitculty for letting us borrow your very awesome legal disclaimer)

We thought that becoming a "Certified Baptiste Teacher" and a "Baptiste Affiliate Studio" owner actually meant something of value and we worked hard to achieve this status thinking it represented a higher level of skill and ability in our careers. We took it seriously and then paid a lot of money and spent a lot of time to get there! But as it turns out the "Path of a Baptiste Certified Teacher" is paved with moving targets and dangling carrots. And standards that change depending on how much status you bring or how many recruits you enroll = $$$ in Baron's pocket. It's a "Pay to Play" system where the goal posts move every few years (or whenever he changes his mind). One day you are paying over $10K to become a "Tier One" certified teacher and the next day all the standards go away in favor of a Cross-fit model where it takes just one weekend to earn a "Baptiste Certificate. But what does Baptiste Certification even mean when some people just had to be friends with the right people to earn their "500-Hour" status? Certribut-ifully nothing! Affiliate studios who pay $3K per year to sport the Baptiste name on their website benefit by being allowed to be Facebook friends with other studio owners and being listed on the Baptiste website. Literally, that's all. A dwindling number of affiliated studios act as recruitment stations by enrolling students into "40 Days to Personal Revolution" where they learn their first thought-terminating cliches and how to start gaslighting themselves, then the studios benefit by getting a $ kick-back for each Level 1 recruit they generate. Would you like to join into this and become a Tier 3 Certified Influencer for the low low price of $100,000?! We can show you how and how much value you will actually (not) get for your investment. Follow us for more tips! _____________________________________ ***The views and opinions expressed on Journey Into Yoga Cults are just that: views and opinions; and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast or the hosts. Stories told by hosts and guests are their own personal experiences, viewpoints and perspective. Any content provided by our hosts, guests, sponsors or authors are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, institution, corporation, business, individual, anyone or anything.*** (thank you @alittlebitculty for letting us borrow your very awesome legal disclaimer)