Growing Beyond What You Do So Well

Guest: Lesley Southwick-Trask You’ve earned a reputation for knowing what you’re doing. When did you last let yourself learn something you might be bad at? Cultural anthropologist, CEO, and leadership strategist Lesley Southwick-Trask joins Maureen Metcalf to explore how unfamiliar experiences can help accomplished leaders see problems differently. Through stories of a skeptical engineer in an art museum, soldiersl learning acting, and her own life-changing walk on the Camino de Santiago, Lesley examines what it takes to move beyond familiar ways of thinking. Maureen also shares how improv helped her confront a fear of public speaking—and the unexpected beauty-pageant talent that helped set that story in motion. Discover why we gravitate toward learning opportunities where we already expect to succeed, how curiosity creates room for experimentation, and why your next step in leadership may require becoming a beginner again.   Other episodes you'll enjoy: - A Dozen Lessons Learned Running Dunkin’ Donuts with Robert Rosenberg -  When Women Lead: Courage, Change, & Representation with Joyce Beatty - How Purpose-Driven Women Redefine What It Means to Lead with Karen Longman   For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.   RESOURCES:   Learn more about Lesley’s work with Bounce Beyond at https://www.bouncebeyond.global/.   Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.    Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.   Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.  -----------------------   OUR PODCAST TEAM:   Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan Booking Producer: Jenna Reik Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay. CONNECT WITH US:  YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership  LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2  Website: InnovativeLeadershipInstitute.com    Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating!  -----------------------   About Our Guest:   Lesley Southwick-Trask is a cultural anthropologist and strategist whose career spans transformation initiatives in more than 500 organizations. She is Co-Lead Steward of Bounce Beyond, where her work focuses on systemic transformation, communication, and engagement. Her approach draws on systems change and Theory U. An author of three books, she has been recognized among Canada’s Top 100 Most Powerful Women and Atlantic Canada’s Top 50 CEOs. From 2010 to 2020, she hosted a regenerative farm and intentional community on the Portuguese Camino de Santiago,an experience that continues to inform her work.

Guest: Jonathan Reams Your leadership team identifies a recurring problem, redesigns the process, and sees improvement…temporarily. Then the same problem returns wearing slightly different clothes.   What didn’t the leaders fix? According to adult-development researcher Jonathan Reams: “Themselves.”   In this conversation with host Maureen Metcalf, Jonathan explains why a decision process can perform only as well as the people operating it. Leaders’ experience, assumptions, emotional reactions, and capacity to handle complexity shape which signals they notice, how they interpret them, and what they ultimately decide.   Jonathan and Maureen explore why intelligent executives can examine the same facts, yet see different problems behind them; how teams leave meetings with apparent agreement but take conflicting actions; and why escalation may be a rational response to cognitive overload and self-protection. They also reveal how vague directives such as “take smart risks” can slow decisions rather than accelerate them.   You’ll learn why moving faster can sometimes make an organization slower, how discomfort contributes to signal blindness, and why the next process redesign should begin with one question whose answer the leader does not already know.   Produced in partnership with the International Leadership Association. Learn about their next global conference at https://ilaglobalconference.org/.    Other insightful episodes you’ll enjoy: - Getting Lost in the Language of Leadership with Jonathan Reams - Reality Lost: How Disinformation Shapes Your World with Tara McGowan - Forecast Isn’t Fact: Building Strength from Uncertainty with Paul Gibbons   For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.   RESOURCES:   Learn more about Jonathan and his work on his website, https://jonathanreams.com/.   Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.    Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.   Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.    -----------------------   OUR PODCAST TEAM:   Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan Booking Producer: Jenna Reik ([email protected]) Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay.   CONNECT WITH US:  YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership  LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2  Website: InnovativeLeadershipInstitute.com    Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating!  -----------------------   About Our Guest:   Jonathan Reams is driven by an insatiable curiosity about the essence of human nature and how to cultivate this essence in the service of leadership. He uses various outlets for achieving this. He held a position at the Norwegian University of Science and Technology from 2007 until 2024, where he taught and did research on leadership development, coaching and counseling. He served as Editor-in Chief of Integral Review from 2005 until 2023. He is also a co-founder of the Center for Transformative Leadership and the European Center for Leadership Practice. Jonathan's Ph.D. is in Leadership Studies from Gonzaga University.   Jonathan practices the cultivation of leadership through consulting and leadership development program design and delivery. He brings awareness based technology to this work, focusing on how the inner workings of human nature can develop leadership capacities for today's complex challenges.

Guest: Paul Gibbons What if your organization’s greatest strength is also making it dangerously fragile?   In this specially selected archival follow-up, Maureen Metcalf revisits a provocative conversation with Paul Gibbons, author of The Science of Successful Organizational Change. Paul explains why resilience -- returning to where you were before a disruption -- may no longer be enough. Truly antifragile organizations use shocks, setbacks, and intelligent failures to emerge stronger.   Together, Maureen and Paul examine why excessive efficiency can eliminate the redundancy organizations need during a crisis; how small failures can protect the larger system; and why leaders must stop treating precise budgets, deadlines, and forecasts as certainty.   They also confront the human and ethical questions behind antifragility: When an organization becomes more resilient by transferring risk to its employees, who really benefits? And how can leaders use lifelong learning to make their own careers less fragile?   Recorded in 2016, this conversation has become even more relevant in today’s era of relentless disruption.   Other episodes you'll enjoy: - Making a Stronger Organization through Change with Paul Gibbons (the prelude to this episode) - Why Smart Companies Make Bad Decisions with Matts Alvesson - The 5% Problem: Rampant Change (and How to Survive It) with Greg Moran For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.   RESOURCES:   Paul's book, The Science of Organizational Change, is available in paperback at https://amzn.to/4wMwlNY.   The book that coined “antifragility,” which Paul references, is Antifragile by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, and is in paperback at https://amzn.to/4x3VmDM. That author’s first book is The Black Swan; it’s available at https://amzn.to/4iEAQG4.   Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.    Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.   Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.  -----------------------   OUR PODCAST TEAM:   Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan Booking Producer: Jenna Reik Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay. CONNECT WITH US:  YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership  LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2  Website: InnovativeLeadershipInstitute.com    Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating!  -----------------------   About Our Guest:   Paul Gibbons is an AI-adoption strategist, leadership thinker, author, and keynote speaker working at the intersection of artificial intelligence, organizational change, and human behavior. During more than three decades in strategy, leadership, and transformation, he has held roles with IBM Consulting, Deloitte, and PwC and advised organizations including Google, Microsoft, HSBC, Barclays, Comcast, and KPMG. He founded Future Considerations, a prominent European leadership-development firm, and wrote The Science of Organizational Change, which introduced behavioral science more fully into change-management practice. His current work focuses on people-first AI adoption, leadership capability, behavioral governance, and helping organizations adapt continuously as technology evolves. His latest book is Adopting AI: The People-First Approach.

Guest: Ruth Milligan Your expertise may earn you a seat at the table, but it doesn’t guarantee anyone will remember what you say.   Executive communication coach and TEDx pioneer Ruth Milligan joins Maureen Metcalf to explain why accomplished leaders struggle to influence a room, especially when their command of the subject tempts them to share too much. The audience rarely needs everything you know. It needs one consequential idea, enough evidence to believe it, and a story that makes it matter.   Ruth draws on decades of coaching executives and TEDx speakers to reveal how leaders can turn complex information into messages people understand, remember, and act upon. She explores how to identify the question an audience actually needs answered, balance evidence with emotional relevance, eliminate fluff, and prepare for career-shaping presentations.   You’ll also learn why strong openings and endings deserve exact rehearsal, and why even accomplished executive speakers benefit from an outside coach or editor.   Because leadership is not only about having the right idea. It’s about making that idea clear enough to travel without you.   Other episodes you'll enjoy: - Leading with Story: Captivate, Convince, Inspire with Paul Smith - Greater than Fact: The Power of Leading with Stories with Paul Smith - Tales from the Top: How Leaders Use Stories with Dr. Tanvi Gautam   For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.   RESOURCES:   Ruth’s website has more information at www.ArticulationInc.com.   The book Ruth mentioned, Reclaiming Conversation, is available in paperback at https://amzn.to/4zFGG0e, or as an audiobook at https://amzn.to/4iqjNYf.   Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.    Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.   Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.  -----------------------   OUR PODCAST TEAM:   Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan Booking Producer: Jenna Reik Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay. CONNECT WITH US:  YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership  LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2  Website: InnovativeLeadershipInstitute.com    Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating!  -----------------------   About Our Guest:   Ruth Milligan, APR, Executive Speech Coach, has been a communicator her entire life.  After earning a degree in Speech Communication from Miami University, she has spent the last 20 years working in a variety of strategic communications roles.  Her favorite was her first: a speechwriter and coach to various political figures.   Since then, she has been a consultant to a variety of clients in her public relations and marketing practice over the past 11 years.   In 2009, she co-curated the first TEDxColumbus event, reinvigorating her love of speech coaching and presentation training. With ar.tic.u.la.tion, she melds her experience and passion into a speech training approach that helps rising executives uncover their potential for becoming excellent verbal communicators.

Guests: Jim Ritchie-Dunham, Annabel Membrillo & Ana Claudia Goncalves Why do organizations hire capable people, then squeeze them into systems that prevent them from contributing their best? Jim Ritchie-Dunham, Ana Claudia Goncalves, and Anabel Membrillo join Maureen Metcalf to examine the invisible agreements that shape organizational culture, employee engagement, and business performance. Drawing on a multiyear transformation inside an international bank, the guests describe how leaders identified an exceptional 50-person team already operating differently from the surrounding organization. Its advantage was not simply better talent; the team had developed agreements that supported trust, communication, knowledge sharing, and meaningful participation. The conversation explores the difference between treating an employee as a replaceable “cog in the machine” and inviting that person to make a distinctive contribution. It also reveals why employees may not respond immediately when leaders suddenly ask for greater initiative: after years of being discouraged from contributing, people need evidence that the invitation is genuine. You’ll hear how knowledge sharing strengthened organizational resilience, reduced dependence on individual experts, expanded team capability, and produced reported bottom-line value. The guests also explain how leaders can connect possibility, people development, and measurable outcomes rather than treating culture change as unaccountable “soft stuff.” The episode leaves leaders with a consequential question: What capability are you already paying for, but preventing your people from using?   Other episodes with Jim Ritchie-Dunham you'll enjoy: The Science Behind Our Yes! The Power of Passion & Perseverance (Four Levels of Grit) Back to the Future…of Work For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.   RESOURCES:   Learn more about hidden agreements and vibrancy at Jim’s institute’s website, https://isclarity.org/.   The free agreements survey mentioned in this episode is online at https://isclarity.org/pages/surveys.   Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.    Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.   Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.  -----------------------   OUR PODCAST TEAM:   Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan Booking Producer: Jenna Reik Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay.   CONNECT WITH US:  YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership  LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2  Website: InnovativeLeadershipInstitute.com    Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating!  -----------------------   About Our Guests:   Jim Ritchie-Dunham is president of the Institute for Strategic Clarity and Clinical Associate Professor of Strategy at the University of Texas at Austin’s McCombs School of Business. He is also a department associate with the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health’s Center for Work, Health, and Well-being. His research examines the agreements that shape human interaction, organizational performance, and ecosystem-wide flourishing. He is a co-editor of Leadership for Flourishing, published by Oxford University Press in 2025, and the author of Ecosynomics: The Science of Abundance and co-author of Managing from Clarity.   Ana Cláudia Gonçalves is a thinking partner, mentor, executive coach, strategist, systems adviser, researcher, and social entrepreneur. Drawing on more than three decades of experience in multinational organizations, she works with executives and organizations navigating strategy, transformation, human development, and systemic change. Her current work focuses on helping leaders connect organizational performance with regenerative capacity and human flourishing. She contributed the chapter “Leading Shifts in Regenerative Capacity for Flourishing” to the 2025 Oxford University Press volume Leadership for Flourishing.   Annabel Membrillo is a systems-change practitioner, educator, and collaborative strategist with approximately 35 years of experience supporting systemic transformation and collaborative strategy across organizations. She is associated with Universidad del Medio Ambiente in Mexico, where she is Director of the Faculty of Business. Her work includes organizational design, systemic strategy, sustainability, regenerative leadership, project evaluation, and developing communities capable of meaningful social and environmental change.

Guest: Paul Gibbons  Why do intelligent leaders approve sound change initiatives, then struggle to turn them into action?  In this episode, host Maureen Metcalf speaks with Paul Gibbons, organizational change expert and author of The Science of Successful Organizational Change. Drawing on behavioral science, philosophy, and decades of business experience, Paul explains why facts and rational arguments alone rarely produce lasting change.  The conversation explores the hidden psychological forces that shape major initiatives. Planning bias causes leaders to underestimate complexity, while sunk-cost bias keeps organizations investing in projects that should be dropped. Habits and automatic behaviors can defeat even the strongest intentions, and repeated, poorly coordinated transformations leave employees exhausted.  Listeners will gain insights on:  Why knowing what should change does not guarantee action  How simple habits influence behavior  How change fatigue undermines organizational performance  How change agility can be developed throughout an organization, and  What evidence-based management reveals about common business practices.  Paul also challenges conventional “carrot and stick” approaches to motivation and explains how choice architecture can influence behavior without coercion.  This conversation offers you a more rigorous way to understand organizational change...and a practical foundation for building organizations capable of learning, adapting, and thriving under pressure.    Other episodes with Paul you'll enjoy:  - Finding Meaning, Joy, & Purpose in What You Do  - Leadership Myths & the War on Truth  For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.  RESOURCES:    Paul's book, The Science of Organizational Change, is available in paperback at https://amzn.to/4wMwlNY.    The book Nudge he referenced, by Thaler & Sunstein, about changing behaviors is available in paperback at https://amzn.to/4fPeEHE, and as an audiobook at https://amzn.to/4g0AeaP.      Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.     Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8 . The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.    Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.     -----------------------    OUR PODCAST TEAM:    Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf  Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko  Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan  Booking Producer: Jenna Reik  Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay.  CONNECT WITH US:   YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership   LinkedIn: www.bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2     Loved this episode? Like and subscribe!   -----------------------    About Our Guest:    Paul Gibbons is an AI-adoption strategist, leadership thinker, author, and keynote speaker working at the intersection of artificial intelligence, organizational change, and human behavior. During more than three decades in strategy, leadership, and transformation, he has held roles with IBM Consulting, Deloitte, and PwC and advised organizations including Google, Microsoft, HSBC, Barclays, Comcast, and KPMG. He founded Future Considerations, a prominent European leadership-development firm, and wrote The Science of Organizational Change, which introduced behavioral science more fully into change-management practice. His current work focuses on people-first AI adoption, leadership capability, behavioral governance, and helping organizations adapt continuously as technology evolves. His latest book is Adopting AI: The People-First Approach.

Guest: Manfred Kets de Vries Every executive has experienced it. A strategy looked sound. The data was convincing. The leadership team agreed. Yet the outcome still fell short. Why? According to renowned leadership scholar Manfred Kets de Vries, the answer isn't in the strategy itself, but in the psychology of the people making decisions. In this thought-provoking episode, Maureen Metcalf sits down with one of the world's foremost experts on leadership psychology to explore how unconscious patterns, executive blind spots, and the dynamics of power quietly shape organizations. Together they discuss: Why self-awareness is one of a leader's greatest competitive advantages How micromanagement, hubris, and executive blind spots spread throughout an organization Why many executive teams remain misaligned despite strong talent The hidden cost of leaders who stop receiving honest feedback Practical ways boards and executive teams can build trust, alignment, and psychological safety. T his conversation offers powerful insights into the human dynamics that determine whether strategies ultimately succeed or fail.     Other episodes you'll enjoy: - (Henry Mintsberg episodes – Manfred worked with him)   For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn. RESOURCES:   Learn more about Manfred and his work at his Institute’s website: https://kdvi.com/.   To learn more about his academic work and case studies, read his faculty page at https://www.insead.edu/faculty/manfred-f-r-kets-de-vries.   His many books include the titles he mentioned in the interview, including: The Neurotic Organization (available in hardback at https://amzn.to/4wauotJ).   And his Medium channel is at Manfred Kets de Vries – Medium.   Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.    Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.   Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.    -----------------------   OUR PODCAST TEAM:   Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan Booking Producer: Jenna Reik ([email protected]) Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay.   CONNECT WITH US:  YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership  LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2  Website: InnovativeLeadershipInstitute.com    Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating!  -----------------------   About Our Guest:   Manfred F. R. Kets de Vries is Distinguished Clinical Professor of Leadership Development and Organizational Change at INSEAD and the Raoul de Vitry d'Avaucourt Chaired Professor of Leadership Development, Emeritus. A pioneer in applying psychology and psychoanalysis to leadership and organizational behavior, he founded INSEAD's Global Leadership Centre and has spent decades helping senior executives and boards become more reflective, effective leaders. Recognized as one of the world's leading management thinkers, he has authored nearly 50 books and more than 400 articles on leadership, executive coaching, organizational transformation, and the dynamics of human behavior.

Guest: Cindy Wigglesworth   Can leaders continue to grow after mastering emotional intelligence? For years, leadership development has emphasized IQ and Emotional Intelligence (EQ) as essential capabilities. But there is another dimension that separates good leaders from truly exceptional ones. In this episode, Maureen Metcalf welcomes Cindy Wigglesworth, founder of Deep Change and creator of the groundbreaking SQ21® Spiritual Intelligence assessment, to explore how leaders can cultivate greater wisdom, compassion, and self-awareness without sacrificing practical business results. Rather than discussing spirituality as religion or philosophy, Cindy presents Spiritual Intelligence (SQ) as a measurable, learnable set of leadership skills that help people move beyond reactive decision-making toward wiser, more thoughtful leadership. Together, they explore: Why IQ and EQ alone are no longer enough for today's leaders The four intelligences that support effective leadership How Spiritual Intelligence helps leaders move beyond ego and emotional triggers Why wisdom and compassion are practical leadership competencies The relationship between adult development, leadership maturity, and SQ The SOUL framework for making better decisions under pressure. Whether you lead an organization, a team, or simply want to become a wiser version of yourself, this conversation offers practical insights for navigating today's increasingly complex world.   Other episodes you'll enjoy: - How Inner Work Transforms Your Leadership: Tools for Growth with Jonathan Reams - Leading from Within - A Former Navy SEAL on Transforming Yourself to Lead Others with Diego Ugalde - Working & Living in Joy with Pamela Larde For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn. RESOURCES:   Cindy’s groundbreaking book is SQ21: The Twnety-One Skills of Spiritual Intelligence. It’s available in paperback at https://amzn.to/4yLi3hW. The audiobook version is at https://amzn.to/3Tgqphw.   You can also learn more at her website: https://deepchange.com/.   Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.    Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8 . The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.   Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.  ----------------------   OUR PODCAST TEAM:   Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan Booking Producer: Jenna Reik Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay. CONNECT WITH US:  YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership  Instagram: @innovativeleader    Loved this episode? Like and subscribe!  -----------------------   About Our Guest:   Cindy Wigglesworth, MA, is the Founder and President of Deep Change, Inc. and a recognized pioneer in the field of Spiritual Intelligence (SQ). She developed the SQ21® Spiritual Intelligence Assessment, a research-based, skills-focused framework that helps individuals and organizations cultivate greater wisdom, compassion, and leadership effectiveness. Her practical, faith-neutral approach has made Spiritual Intelligence accessible for executive leadership development, organizational transformation, diversity initiatives, and personal growth.   Cindy created SQ21® in collaboration with researchers and psychometric experts to provide a measurable pathway for developing Spiritual Intelligence. She is the author of the bestselling SQ21: The Twenty-One Skills of Spiritual Intelligence and co-author (as Cynthia S. Graves) of Grown-Up Children Who Won't Grow Up.

What if your organization's leadership shortage isn't a talent problem, but a leadership job design problem? Many organizations are investing heavily in leadership development while watching their leadership pipelines grow weaker. Why? According to Gallagher's latest research, talented employees are looking at leadership roles and deciding they don't want them. In this episode, Maureen Metcalf speaks with Steve Dion, National Managing Director of Leadership and Organizational Development at Gallagher, about why traditional leadership systems are struggling to meet today's realities, and what organizations can do to reverse the trend. Together they explore: How burnout, workload, and outdated role design discourage future leaders Why leadership pipelines reflect leadership systems, not just talent availability Why succession planning must become an ongoing organizational capability instead of an annual exercise Practical steps CEOs and boards can take today to strengthen leadership capacity for the future. Rather than asking how to train better leaders, this conversation asks a more important question: How do we create leadership roles that talented people genuinely want to fill?   Other episodes you'll enjoy: - Leading to Shape the Future: Theory U with Otto Scharmer - Rethinking Leadership for the Future with Cynthia Cherrey - Back to the Future…of Work with Jim Ritchie-Dunham, Suzie Lewis, & David Dinwoodie For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn. RESOURCES:   Learn more about Gallagher’s leadership research at https://www.ajg.com/.    Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.    Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.   Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.    -----------------------   OUR PODCAST TEAM:   Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan Booking Producer: Jenna Reik ([email protected]) Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay.   CONNECT WITH US:  YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership  LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2  Website: InnovativeLeadershipInstitute.com    Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating!  -----------------------   About Our Guest:   Steve Dion is National Managing Director of Leadership and Organizational Development at Gallagher, where he leads a team helping organizations strengthen culture, develop leaders at every level, and improve organizational performance. With more than 30 years of HR, executive leadership, and consulting experience, he previously founded and served as CEO of Dion Leadership, an award-winning leadership development and executive coaching firm that joined Gallagher in 2025. He is widely recognized for helping organizations translate complex people challenges into practical strategies that improve engagement, retention, leadership effectiveness, and business results.

Guests: Dave DuBose & Will O’Brien What if your labor shortage isn't really a hiring problem? When workers are scarce, the conventional responses are predictable: raise wages, offer bonuses, hire earlier, add temporary labor, and hope you make it through the next peak. But what if those tactics are treating the symptoms while leaving the real problem untouched? Supply chain leaders Will O'Brien and Dave DuBose join Maureen Metcalf to challenge the way leaders think about workforce shortages. Drawing on decades of experience in operations, supply chain, and organizational transformation, they argue that lasting solutions begin by asking a more fundamental question: Does the work itself need to be redesigned? The conversation explores how organizations can reduce unnecessary labor, use technology more strategically, rethink fulfillment and operating models, expand the pool of people they can successfully employ, and become “sticky employers”: organizations that create enough genuine value for employees that leaving becomes unthinkable. You'll also hear why wage increases alone rarely create a sustainable advantage, how benefits such as childcare can become hard business investments, why yesterday's most efficient operating model may become today's vulnerability, and how reactive workforce planning can reveal a deeper leadership problem. When the environment changes structurally, working harder inside the old system isn't a strategy. Sometimes the system itself has to change. This conversation begins in supply chain, but its implications reach any leader facing talent scarcity, retention challenges, rising costs, technological disruption, or an operating model built for a world that no longer exists. Other episodes you'll enjoy: - Looking at Labor Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow with Kevin Cassidy & Christopher Washington - What Leaders Miss in the Talent Shortage Myth with Doug McCollough - Developing Future-Fit Employees with Faris Alami and Christopher Washington For daily wisdom from our guests, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn. RESOURCES:  Learn more about Dave & Will’s work at their company website, https://truenorthgrowthpartners.com/.   Our host Maureen Metcalf posts a newsletter every week on LinkedIn. You can subscribe here.   Maureen’s latest book is Innovative Leadership & Followership in the Age of AI. You’ll find details about it at https://bit.ly/LeaderInAI, or check out the Kindle version at https://amzn.to/44buVz8. The audiobook version is now available at  https://amzn.to/4dTCleZ.   Her other 10 books are available on Amazon here.   -----------------------  OUR PODCAST TEAM:  Host & Executive Producer: Maureen Metcalf Editor & Executive Producer: Dan Mushalko Graphics Editor: Stacia Rogan Sponsorship Sales Manager: Kristine Gross ([email protected]) Booking Producer: Jenna Reik ([email protected]) Theme Music by Pavel Bekirov from Pixabay.   CONNECT WITH US: YouTube: @InnovatingLeadership LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ILI-LinkedIn2 Website: InnovativeLeadershipInstitute.com   Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating! -----------------------  About Our Guests:  Will O'Brien is a Partner at True North Growth Partners and an executive leader and advisor with more than 30 years of experience in operations, supply chain, and business transformation. His career includes executive leadership roles in industry and consulting, including Lowe's and Sedlak Supply Chain Consultants. Will helps organizations improve operational performance, align people, processes, and technology, and build the capabilities needed for sustainable growth. Dave DuBose is a Partner at True North Growth Partners and an executive advisor and transformation leader with more than 30 years of experience. His career includes leadership roles with Pepsi Bottling Group, Accenture, Limited Brands, IBM, and Sedlak. Dave helps organizations align strategy, operations, people, and technology to execute complex transformations, improve performance, and achieve sustainable business results.