Redefining Societal Success I with Julia Kim, Club of Rome | S5E4

How should we measure progress - by what we produce and consume, or by how people and nature are doing? Dr. Julia Kim, a physician and systems thinker, discusses Bhutan’s Gross National Happiness (GNH) as an alternative to GDP, and shows how inner development - including her contemplative and spiritual practice - provides the human foundations for translating that vision into policy, institutions, and everyday life.Julia Kim began her career in clinical medicine before moving into health policy and international development with the UN and other agencies. She later served as Program Director at the Gross National Happiness Centre, Bhutan, and is a member of the Wellbeing Economy Alliance and an Executive Committee Member of the Club of Rome. In this conversation:Julia’s path from medicine to systems work—and how contemplative practice and spirituality inform her leadershipWhat Gross National Happiness measures and how it reframes policy choicesPractical ways NGOs can create low-barrier spaces for reflection and values-aligned actionReal-world effects of GNH (e.g. community norms around forest conservation) and the tensions of a GDP-centric worldHow other Wellbeing Economy approaches are taking shape in the worldResources:About Julia KimWellbeing Economy AllianceCenter for Healthy MindsSmall GiantsPresencing InstituteEarth4All  Season 5 leads into the IDG Summit 2025 in Stockholm, where the Inner Green Deal curates a full-day track. Use code “MeSummit2025” for 15% off in-person and 50% off digital tickets. With thanks to the Robert Ho Family Foundation for their support.Our podcast is hosted and produced by Tamsin Walker. Executive producer is IGD co-founder Jeroen Janss. For more information, visit  innergreendeal.com or write to [email protected]. Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

It started with a dream, a tractor, and a piano—in the middle of the Egyptian desert.Nearly fifty years later, SEKEM stands as one of the most compelling examples of how inner development can reshape entire systems.We speak with Helmy Abouleish, CEO of SEKEM and steward of a vision first brought to life by his father and carried forward through decades of shared leadership.What began as a bold experiment to green the desert has grown into a thriving, values-based movement that:Employs over 2,000 peopleSupports more than 40,000 farmersRegenerates ecosystems through biodynamic farmingProvides education, healthcare, and cultural programsDevotes 10% of working time for all staff to personal development—including arts, reflection, and values-based learningHelps shape national sustainability policiesSEKEM has received numerous international awards, including the Right Livelihood Award (often called the Alternative Nobel Prize) and is an active member of the Conscious Food System Alliance (CoFSA) convened by UNDP.We explore with Helmy:How inner development enables long-term systems thinkingThe principles of the Economy of LoveWhy creativity and love are essential leadership qualitiesWhether you're a funder, changemaker, or policy leader, this story is a powerful reminder: even the most ambitious visions can take root—with the right inner and outer foundations.Season 5 is part of the lead-up to the 2025 Inner Development Goals Summit in Stockholm, where the Inner Green Deal will curate a full-day track on this theme.If you are interested to join the Inner Development Goals Summit, we have a special discount code to offer: “MeSummit2025" gives our listeners a 15% discount on in-person and 50% discount on digital tickets. For more information on the Summit, go to: https://innerdevelopmentgoals.org/events/summit2025/. We thank the Robert Ho Foundation for their support.About the Inner Green Deal The  Inner Green Deal a mission-driven non-profit supporting changemakers in cultivating the inner capacities needed for meaningful action in the face of today’s interconnected climate, ecological and social crises. Our podcast is hosted and produced by Tamsin Walker. Executive producer is IGD co-founder Jeroen Janss. For more information, visit us on  innergreendeal.com or write to [email protected].  If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to our podcast or leaving a review. Thank you!Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

What sustains an activist when defiance alone isn’t enough? We sit down with Davin Hutchins, senior campaigner at Greenpeace International, to explore what happens when a movement known for bold resistance also makes space for inner development.Davin shares how hope, courage, and nature connection have shaped his own path - and why, especially in moments of political backlash or overwhelm, the movement must go beyond resistance to stay resilient and effective.We explore:Why recognising we are nature changes how we work for natureHow contemplation and community can be powerful alternatives to burnout and “go, go, go”How inner work can sharpen strategy and fuel systemic changeWhether you’re an activist, a changemaker, or simply feeling the strain of today’s polycrisis, Davin’s reflections offer a timely reminder: sometimes the bravest act is to pause, notice, and ask better questions.https://www.davinhutchins.com/https://www.greenpeace.org/international/about/If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to our podcast or leaving a review. In doing so you make it easier for people to discover our podcast. We thank you for your support.  Season 5 is part of the lead-up to the 2025 Inner Development Goals Summit in Stockholm, where the Inner Green Deal will curate a full-day track on this theme.If you are interested to join the Inner Development Goals Summit, we have a special discount code to offer: “MeSummit2025" gives our listeners a 15% discount on in-person and 50% discount on digital tickets.We thank the Robert Ho Family Foundation for their kind support to the Summit and the podcast. For more information on the Summit, go to: https://innerdevelopmentgoals.org/events/summit2025/About the Inner Green Deal The  Inner Green Deal a mission-driven non-profit supporting changemakers in cultivating the inner capacities needed for meaningful action in the face of today’s interconnected climate, ecological and social crises.Our podcast is hosted and produced by Tamsin Walker. Executive producer is IGD co-founder Jeroen Janss. For more information, visit us on  innergreendeal.com or write to [email protected].  Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

This first episode of the season explores the question why inner work matters for NGOs and funders—and their efforts to change systems. We consider concrete examples of the linkage between inner-led change and systemic change but also discuss how to overcome obstacles in today's time of uncertainty, polarisation and funding cuts.  Our guide in this discussion is Luis Camargo, founder and director of the Colombia and US-based Organization for Environmental Education and Protection (OpEPA) which works to reconnecting people to nature as a way to accelerate the transition to sustainable and regenerative cultures.Luis also serves as a Board Member of WWF Colombia and Regional Vice Chair of the IUCN's South America Commission on Education and Communication.https://www.linkedin.com/in/luisalbertocamargo/?locale=es_EShttps://opepa.org/ (in Spanish)If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to our podcast or leaving a review. In doing so you make it easier for people to discover our podcast. We thank you for your support.  Season 5 is part of the lead-up to the 2025 Inner Development Goals Summit in Stockholm, where the Inner Green Deal will curate a full-day track on this theme.Over the course of six episodes, we'll be speaking with inspiring guests about the role of inner development in organisational and systemic transformation—and what it takes to fund and support this work meaningfully. If you are interested to join the Inner Development Goals Summit, we have a special discount code to offer: “MeSummit2025" gives our listeners a 15% discount on in-person and 50% discount on digital tickets.We thank the Robert Ho Family Foundation for their kind support to the Summit and the podcast.For more information on the Summit, go to: https://innerdevelopmentgoals.org/events/summit2025/About the Inner Green Deal The  Inner Green Deal supports changemakers in cultivating the inner capacities needed for meaningful action in the face of today’s interconnected climate, ecological and social crises.The Inner Green Deal is a mission-driven non-profit based in Cologne and Brussels, with a growing global community. Its mission is to serve as a catalyst for deep, regenerative change—within individuals, organisations, and systems.Our podcast is hosted and produced by Tamsin Walker. Executive producer is IGD co-founder Jeroen Janss. For more information, visit us on LinkedIn, innergreendeal.com or write to [email protected].  Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Welcome to a new season of the Inner Green Deal podcast.In this season, we turn our attention to the role of inner development in NGOs and other impact organisations—at a time when many are navigating deep uncertainty, political pressure, and increasing resource constraints. We’ve seen incredible commitment and creativity across the sector. And yet, in the face of today’s complexity, many NGOs and funders still focus primarily on external action—often viewing inner development as a personal pursuit rather than a powerful lever for organisational, cultural, and systemic change.But what if inner development were not a luxury, but a foundation? What if investing in inner capacities could help us respond with greater clarity, compassion, and collective intelligence?In this season, we’ll explore:How inner development supports staff wellbeing and strengthens mission deliveryWhat it takes to shift organisational culture toward trust, resilience, and regenerationWhy this work is often underfunded or misunderstood—and how that’s beginning to changeAnd how inner work connects to outer impact, through stories, tools, and lived examplesThis series is part of the lead-up to the 2025 Inner Development Goals Summit in Stockholm, where the Inner Green Deal will curate a full-day track on this theme—bringing together NGO leaders, funders, and changemakers to deepen this field of practice.We’re grateful to the Robert Ho Family Foundation for supporting both the podcast and this work at the summit.Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

We sat down with Daniel Christian Wahl to talk about the nature of regenerative cultures and what the world might look like if that were the dominant model for our societies. Daniel Christian Wahl originally trained as a biologist before going on to study holistic science and completing his PhD in Design for Human and Planetary Health. He is an educator, consultant and author committed to shaping a world that harmonizes human and planetary health and wellbeing. His book 'Designing Regenerative Cultures,' is regarded as a seminal work in the field.Born in Germany, he now lives in Mallorca, where he is custodian of a Mediterranean regenerative food forest that serves as a sanctuary and model for sustainable living. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to our podcast or leaving a review. In doing so you make it easier for people to discover our podcast. We thank you for your support.  In the four years since it has been running, the Inner Green Deal podcast has been entirely self-funded and we are committed to keeping it that way, which means commercials-free. To live up to this ambition, we are inviting you to support us. Every contribution, however small, makes a difference and allows us to continue sharing inspiring stories that highlight how understanding what is going inside can help in tackling the climate crisis. If you would like to donate, click here for more details.   https://app.regen.network/https://www.danielchristianwahl.com/About the Inner Green Deal  The Inner Green Deal is a non-profit organisation based in Cologne and Brussels with a growing community around the world. We address the human dimension of sustainability and support leaders, change makers and facilitators to accelerate the green transformation. We offer a range of short and longer programmes cultivating capacities such as collaboration, systems thinking and compassion. In addition to programmes for organisations, we empower facilitators and offer train-the-trainer programmes, access to curricula and digital tools to create cohesive communities of change. Our podcast is hosted and produced by Tamsin Walker. Executive producer is IGD co-founder Jeroen Janss. For more information, visit us on LinkedIn, innergreendeal.com or write to [email protected].  Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

If marketing is a key driver of behaviour that leads to ecological overshoot, can it be used to reverse it?Each year, we collectively use up more resources than the planet can regenerate. A new paper names the human behaviour crisis as the driver for this ecological overshoot and analyses the role of marketing. Tamsin Walker sat down with Phoebe Barnard who co-authored the paper to discuss the history of our collective consumer behaviour, what role marketing could have in slowing overshoot and what it takes to reach a social tipping point. Phoebe is a biodiversity and climate scientist, systems and policy strategist, societal futurist, writer and film producer. She is campaign advisor at the Global Evergreening Alliance, convenor of the Global Restoration Collaborative, Affiliate Professor at the University of Washington, and Researcher at the University of Cape Town. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to our podcast or leaving a review. In doing so you make it easier for people to discover our podcast. We thank you for your support.  In the four years since it has been running, the Inner Green Deal podcast has been entirely self-funded and we are committed to keeping it that way, which means commercials-free. To live up to this ambition, we are inviting you to support us. Every contribution, however small, makes a difference and allows us to continue sharing inspiring stories that highlight how understanding what is going inside can help in tackling the climate crisis. If you would like to donate, click here for more details.   Linkshttps://www.phoebebarnard.com/Paper: the behavioural crisis driving ecological overshoothttps://www.evergreening.org/https://www.stableplanetalliance.org/restoration About the Inner Green Deal  The Inner Green Deal is a non-profit organisation based in Cologne and Brussels with a growing community around the world. We address the human dimension of sustainability and support leaders, change makers and facilitators to accelerate the green transformation. We offer a range of short and longer programmes cultivating capacities such as collaboration, systems thinking and compassion. In addition to programmes for organisations, we empower facilitators and offer train-the-trainer programmes, access to curricula and digital tools to create cohesive communities of change. Our podcast is hosted and produced by Tamsin Walker. Executive producer is IGD co-founder Jeroen Janss. For more information, visit us on LinkedIn, innergreendeal.com or write to [email protected].  Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

We are welcoming Nipun Mehta, founder of ServiceSpace, a global movement that touches millions of people through the merging of volunteerism, technology and the gift-economy.Tamsin spoke to Nipun about the potential and far-reaching impacts of an unexpected act of kindness. Not only for the recipient, but for oneself, society and the world at large. Nipun set up ServiceSpace after quitting his first and only job as a software engineer to become a full-time volunteer. Fast forward more than two decades and ServiceSpace has evolved to become a global ecosystem of over 1.5 million members, delivering millions of dollars in service for free. He has also been honoured by the Dalai Lama as an "Unsung Hero of Compassion".Our podcast is hosted and produced by Tamsin Walker. Executive producer is IGD co-founder Jeroen Janss. For more information, visit us on LinkedIn, innergreendeal.com or write to [email protected].   In the four years since it has been running, the Inner Green Deal podcast has been entirely self-funded and we are committed to keeping it that way, which means commercials-free. To live up to this ambition, we are inviting you to support us. Every contribution, however small, makes a difference and allows us to continue sharing inspiring stories that highlight how understanding what is going inside can help in tackling the climate crisis. If you would like to donate, click here for more details.Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

The language we use to talk about things shapes our perception of the world. The more we use certain terms, the more entrenched our perspectives become. What if we started describing things in a new way?Tamsin Walker sat down with Inez Aponte to talk about how different ways of measuring success can lead to a more connected and ultimately healthy experience of life. Both for people and planet.Inez is an educator, storyteller and consultant in Barefoot Economics, which using a fundamental needs framework to assess economic wellbeing, can serve as a tool to change the narrative around economic success.With a background in performance storytelling and improvisation, she focuses on the interplay between language, narrative and behaviour change, working with groups to cultivate what she calls a ‘radical collective imagination’, as the basis for addressing our shared complex challenges. In 2021, she founded a social enterprise called Crazy Beautiful World with her then 16-year-old son. Their mission is to connect young people with the adults who care about their future to explore compassionate and wise ways to navigate the challenges of the 21st Century.If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to our podcast or leaving a review. In doing so you make it easier for people to discover our podcast. We thank you for your support.  Linkshttps://www.linkedin.com/in/inezaponte/?originalSubdomain=ukhttps://crazybeautiful.world/our-story/ About the Inner Green Deal The Inner Green Deal is a non-profit organisation based in Cologne and Brussels with a growing community around the world. We address the human dimension of sustainability and support leaders, change makers and facilitators to accelerate the green transformation. We offer a range of short and longer programmes cultivating capacities such as collaboration, systems thinking and compassion. In addition to programmes for organisations, we empower facilitators and offer train-the-trainer programmes, access to curricula and digital tools to create cohesive communities of change. Our podcast is hosted and produced by Tamsin Walker. Executive producer is IGD co-founder Jeroen Janss. For more information, visit us on LinkedIn, innergreendeal.com or write to [email protected]. In the four years since it has been running, the Inner Green Deal podcast has been entirely self-funded and we are committed to keeping it that way, which means commercials-free. To live up to this ambition, we are inviting you to support us. Every contribution, however small, makes a difference and allows us to continue sharing inspiring stories that highlight how understanding what is going inside can help in tackling the climate crisis. If you would like to donate, click here.Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this episode, originally recorded during the 2020 elections, Inner Green Deal co-founder Jeroen Janss spoke to Bryan Welch, leading publisher on sustainability, former CEO of mindful.org and committed rancher from Kansas.He asked Bryan how he felt about the prospect of a second-term Donald Trump presidency and what a contested election means for America.Knowing the system from the inside, he points to the divisions that he has seen deepening over the years and the media and vested interests that have played a role in that. Yet despite the challenging outlook, Bryan also sees many positive developments and talks about the millions of people that discover the power of compassion – a quality that he sees not only as distinctively human - and grounding - but also as critical at a time of societal division, environmental mass extinction and climate change. So take a deep breath and listen to Bryan’s wisdom while the US election season gets underway in earnest. More about Bryan Welch at https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryan-welch-3383311/.About the Inner Green Deal The Inner Green Deal is a non-profit organisation based in Cologne and Brussels with a growing community around the world. We address the human dimension of sustainability and support leaders, change makers and facilitators to accelerate the green transformation. We offer a range of short and longer programmes cultivating capacities such as collaboration, systems thinking and compassion. In addition to programmes for organisations, we empower facilitators and offer train-the-trainer programmes, access to curricula and digital tools to create cohesive communities of change. Our podcast is hosted and produced by Tamsin Walker. Executive producer is IGD co-founder Jeroen Janss. For more information, visit us on LinkedIn, innergreendeal.com or write to [email protected]. In the four years since it has been running, the Inner Green Deal podcast has been entirely self-funded and we are committed to keeping it that way, which means commercials-free. To live up to this ambition, we are inviting you to support us. Every contribution, however small, makes a difference and allows us to continue sharing inspiring stories that highlight how understanding what is going inside can help in tackling the climate crisis. If you would like to donate, click here. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to our podcast or leaving a review. In doing so you make it easier for people to discover our podcast. We thank you for your support.  Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.