David Grann: How to Write Non-Fiction That Reads Like Fiction | How I Write

Check out Sublime at https://sublime.app/?ref=perell David Grann: one of the best storytellers alive today and an absolute master at narrative nonfiction. You might know him from "Killers of the Flower Moon", which Martin Scorsese turned into a film. And then there's "The Wager"; I can't think of a single book that more people I know have said that they just read the entire thing, from start to finish, in one sitting. So what is it that he does to find stories, to research them, to turn them into writing that just makes people flip from page to page? Lush, vivid prose, great descriptions. How does he do it? That's what this conversation's all about. About the host Hey! I’m David Perell and I’m a writer, teacher, and podcaster. I believe writing online is one of the biggest opportunities in the world today. For the first time in human history, everybody can freely share their ideas with a global audience. I seek to help as many people publish their writing online as possible. Follow me Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-write/id1700171470 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DavidPerellChannel X: https://x.com/david_perell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Susan Orlean writes nonfiction books that read like fiction, sort of working in the style of Joan Didion or Tom Wolfe. But what makes her different is how intentional she is about her writing process. She's very intentional about the research, the writing, the editing phases, all of it. And if you're thinking about your own process, how can you structure your life in order to lead to good writing? Well, you're going to love this episode. About the host Hey! I’m David Perell and I’m a writer, teacher, and podcaster. I believe writing online is one of the biggest opportunities in the world today. For the first time in human history, everybody can freely share their ideas with a global audience. I seek to help as many people publish their writing online as possible. Follow me Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-write/id1700171470 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DavidPerellChannel X: https://x.com/david_perell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Stefan Sagmeister is the author of six books and one of the most influential designers in the world. He's won multiple Grammy Awards for his designs, and he's designed album covers for people like Jay-Z and David Byrne, the Rolling Stones. But he's a writer. What does he write about? Well, design, beauty, how to find good ideas. You'll notice when you pick up one of his books that the form, the style, the vibe, the typography is every bit as important as the content. This is really about design, beauty, and why our world looks the way it does. Enjoy! About the host Hey! I’m David Perell and I’m a writer, teacher, and podcaster. I believe writing online is one of the biggest opportunities in the world today. For the first time in human history, everybody can freely share their ideas with a global audience. I seek to help as many people publish their writing online as possible. Follow me Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-write/id1700171470 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DavidPerellChannel X: https://x.com/david_perell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Morgan Housel is one of the top non-fiction writers in the world. He is most famous for his book “The Psychology of Money”, which has now sold more than 8 million copies. Before he wrote the book, he wrote more than 4,000 blog posts for publications like The Wall Street Journal and The Motley Fool, and that’s how he honed his craft. This is my second time having Morgan on the show. The first time, I just wanted to talk about Morgan, how he goes about his work. But this time I said: “Tell me about stories.” “How do you find stories? How do you tell stories? How do you think about the rhythm of stories?” That’s why he’s been able to sell millions of books in the world of psychology, investing, and business: because of his ability to tell a really good story. Enjoy! 00:00:50 Collecting Good Stories00:04:12 Storytelling Beats Facts00:05:16 How to Hook Readers00:08:39 How Morgan Uses ChatGPT00:15:53 Teaching vs Preaching in Writing00:18:01 The #1 Worst Writing Advice00:25:18 Wide Funnel, Tight Filter Framework00:27:08 How to Find Your Writing Style00:31:45 Why Write Books in an Online World00:36:20 How Morgan Wrote ‘The Art of Spending Money’00:47:16 Morgan’s Admiration for Beautiful Writing00:53:28 How to Start a Chapter00:57:18 Becoming More Observant01:01:01 You Don’t Need New Ideas01:08:16 How Morgan Deals With Rejection About the host Hey! I’m David Perell and I’m a writer, teacher, and podcaster. I believe writing online is one of the biggest opportunities in the world today. For the first time in human history, everybody can freely share their ideas with a global audience. I seek to help as many people publish their writing online as possible. Follow me Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-write/id1700171470 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DavidPerellChannel X: https://x.com/david_perell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You can’t walk through an airport without seeing a Mitch Albom book on one of the shelves. He’s most famous for writing Tuesdays with Morrie, which may very well be the best-selling memoir of all time. He’s now written 14 books, which combined have sold more than 40 million copies. In 45 years of hitting the keyboard, this is the deepest conversation he’s ever had about the craft of writing. I asked him to approach this like a college writing seminar. Give me the rigor. Give me the examples, baby. Show me how you go about your craft. And that’s what he did. He taught me the ins-and-outs of character building, writing novels, and our conversation started with how to tell great stories. Hey! I’m David Perell and I’m a writer, teacher, and podcaster. I believe writing online is one of the biggest opportunities in the world today. For the first time in human history, everybody can freely share their ideas with a global audience. I seek to help as many people publish their writing online as possible. Follow me Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-write/id1700171470 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DavidPerellChannel X: https://x.com/david_perell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I interviewed Dan Wang, a writer and analyst whose annual letters from China have become a first draft of modern Chinese history. We talked about how he blends personal observation with deep analysis, how to skip the cliches and write with texture instead, and how classical music and literature have shaped his writing style. What’s unique about Dan is that he built a name for himself by writing one essay per year (in an age where writers are encouraged to publish consistently). We also talked about his approach to travel writing, the difference between living in Beijing, Shanghai, and Hong Kong, how AI is changing the way he thinks (but not how he writes), and why China’s influencer culture is his least favorite thing about the country. 00:1:04 Why Dan writes Annual Letters00:07:53 Dan’s favorite novel00:15:01 Dan’s method for writing00:26:02 Why most travel writing stinks00:30:44 How to travel through China00:33:05 The regions of China, explained00:44:47 Trade books vs. academic books00:53:46 The problem with history books01:01:42 Did Dan write his book with AI?01:10:50 Dan’s least favorite part about China1:15:42 A critique of American elites1:33:08 Dan’s website got blocked in China1:39:52 What China mocks about America1:54:49 A simple way to improve your writing Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I interviewed Ada Limón and Joy Harjo, two of America’s most celebrated poets and former U.S. Poet Laureates. We talked about the art of deep listening, how to translate the music of the world into language, and why silence is never empty but always alive. We explored how poetry resists “clock time,” why metaphor is essential to truth, how culture lives through song and dance, and what it means to trust your voice across a lifetime of writing.If you want to write with more presence, rediscover the mystery of language, or understand how poetry can awaken a deeper way of being, this conversation will give you timeless insights from two masters of the craft. Hey! I’m David Perell and I’m a writer, teacher, and podcaster. I believe writing online is one of the biggest opportunities in the world today. For the first time in human history, everybody can freely share their ideas with a global audience. I seek to help as many people publish their writing online as possible. Follow me Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-write/id1700171470 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DavidPerellChannel X: https://x.com/david_perell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I interviewed Jack and Ryan from AJR, the band that has built one of the most original voices in modern music. We talked about how they use humor and vulnerability to write songs that connect on a deeper level, why embarrassment is often the best creative compass, how Broadway and magic inspire their live shows, and what they’ve learned about navigating TikTok, streaming, and the new economics of the music industry. We also explored their thoughts on AI, why imperfection makes art feel authentic, and how they’ve grown from writing dorm-room party songs to filling arenas around the world. If you want to understand the future of music, create art that’s both playful and profound, or learn how to stay true to yourself in a world driven by algorithms, this conversation will give you a rare inside look at the creative process of AJR. 00:00:00 The truth in music 00:09:41 Embarrassment as creative fuel 00:20:05 Context is everything 00:29:24 From 2D to 3D songwriting 00:39:36 Live shows as the real artwork 00:49:42 Truth, AI, and the future of music 00:59:41 Haters, resilience, and regret-proof songs 01:09:27 Writing a thousand bad songs 01:18:58 Partnership and balance 01:28:32 Themes, loss, and the arc of Maybe Man Hey! I’m David Perell and I’m a writer, teacher, and podcaster. I believe writing online is one of the biggest opportunities in the world today. For the first time in human history, everybody can freely share their ideas with a global audience. I seek to help as many people publish their writing online as possible. Follow me Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-write/id1700171470 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DavidPerellChannel X: https://x.com/david_perell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Every so often, I’ll re-publish one of my favorite How I Write episodes. This classic episode is with Steven Pressfield, the author of more than 25 books who speaks as beautifully about the creative process as he writes. He waded through 27 years of Resistance so you don’t have to. Come learn his best practices for doing your best work. TIMESTAMPS: 00:00:00 Intro 00:00:40 Your career in writing 00:07:00 Writing rough drafts 00:11:10 Copywriting 00:13:20 Hemingway 00:14:20 The Legend of Bagger Vance 00:18:40 Fiction vs Non-fiction 00:19:15 Storytelling advice 00:29:20 Editing your work 00:40:55 Discipline in writing 00:43:45 Villains in writing 01:02:45 How Steven started writing 01:05:15 Robert Greene 01:08:50 Tim Ferriss 01:12:00 60 scenes method 01:13:20 Writing styles 01:20:20 Make your heroes suffer 01:23:55 Steven Pressfield's new book "The Daily Pressfield" Hey! I’m David Perell and I’m a writer, teacher, and podcaster. I believe writing online is one of the biggest opportunities in the world today. For the first time in human history, everybody can freely share their ideas with a global audience. I seek to help as many people publish their writing online as possible. Follow me Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-write/id1700171470 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DavidPerellChannel X: https://x.com/david_perell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I interviewed Jimmy Soni, who is currently writing a book about Kobe Bryant. He spent six years on his previous book about the origin story of PayPal and has mastered the art of investigative biography. We talked about his 4am writing routine, how he blends research and writing to battle writers block, why he finds the best stories by talking to people on the periphery, his thoughts on using AI as a writing tool, and his experience creating a new publishing company. If you're interested in writing better non-fiction, doing deeper research, or finding the stories everyone else misses, this conversation will show you exactly how to do that. Hey! I’m David Perell and I’m a writer, teacher, and podcaster. I believe writing online is one of the biggest opportunities in the world today. For the first time in human history, everybody can freely share their ideas with a global audience. I seek to help as many people publish their writing online as possible. Follow me Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-write/id1700171470 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DavidPerellChannel X: https://x.com/david_perell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices