How Birth Mothers are Paying the Hidden Costs of Adoption (with Gretchen Sisson)

Dogs didn’t just become our companions. They helped make us human. They've been by our side for tens of thousands of years, helping us herd and hunt, migrate, heal, grieve, fight war, imagine the afterlife, and more.  Religion and environmental studies scholar Laura Hobgood joins us to explore the long, complicated co-evolution of humans and dogs—how humans have loved, used, protected, and sometimes harmed them in return. Her book is called A Dog’s History of the World: Canines and the Domestication of Humans. Whether you love dogs, miss one deeply, or have never thought much about them at all, this episode will change how you see our oldest animal partner. Even if you aren't a dog person, you're still kind of a dog person! Full transcript is available here at relationscapes.org.  Show Notes Check out Grumpy's grave here. Pat Lee Shipman, "The Woof at the Door," on the child and dog in a cave.  "Do dogs go to heaven?" Glad You Asked podcast. About the Guest Dr. Laura Hobgood is co-chair of the Environmental Studies program and past chair of the Religion program at Southwestern University. She also holds the Elizabeth Root Paden Chair in Religion and Environmental Studies. Hobgood received her Ph.D. from St. Louis University and her M.Div. from Vanderbilt University. She is author of A Dog’s History of the World: Canines and the Domestication of Humans. 

Some songs take decades to reveal what they’re really about. Back in the 90s when 20-year-old Steven Page wrote “What a Good Boy,” he understood it as a plea to ease up on restrictive gender expectations that harmed boys and girls. But as he performed it over the years, he realized it was about much more than that. The stirring anthem has become a greater exploration of gender identity and sexuality, a perennial wrestle against a binary world's hostility to people who don't fit the mold—trans, nonbinary, genderqueer, gay, or otherwise. Page, a founding member of the smash-hit band Barenaked Ladies now enjoying his solo career, has spent much of his life writing songs to explore vulnerability, humor, grief, and joy, a signature blend of comedy and tragedy. In this discussion, Page reflects on how "What A Good Boy" came to be, and what it's like to have his creation become part of someone else’s becoming. Full transcript is available here at relationscapes.org. But you'll want to hear this one! Show Notes A.R. Moxon, The Reframe Steven Page, "Where Do You Stand?" Steven Page, "White Noise" Barenaked Ladies, "What a Good Boy" David Friend, "Steven Page project takes political turn with new album," Toronto Star (Sept. 21, 2018) Fellow Traveler Episodes Nonbinary Thinking (with Eris Young) The Challenges of Parenting Trans Kids (with Abi Maxwell) A Haunted Trans Story (with Kyle Lukoff) What The News Isn't Telling You About Trans Teenagers (with Nico Lang) Black and Beyond the Binary (with KB Brookins) How to Support Trans Youth (with Ben V. Greene) The Incredible Brain Science About Sex and Gender (with Daphna Joel) Recovering Queer Black History for Everybody (with George M. Johnson) About the Guest Steven Page is a Canadian musician, singer, songwriter, record producer, and founding member of the music group Barenaked Ladies. Since going solo, Page has released five albums, he performs with groups like the Trans-Canada Highwaymen, and he publicly advocates on issues including mental and behavioral health. He has three sons and lives in New York with his partner, Christine Benedicto. I'm not sure if he has any dogs or cats, and I forgot to ask him. Join his Patreon at patreon.com/c/stevenpage.  

When George M. Johnson was a kid growing up in New Jersey, they loved Black History Month. They were thrilled to learn about the people who shaped American history for the better. But as they got older, they started noticing things were missing—hidden stories that might have meant the most to a queer kid like they were. George was especially drawn to one of the most dazzling moments in Black history, the Harlem Renaissance. They went searching for what had been covered up, forgotten, or erased, and resurrected those stories in their book, Flamboyants: The Queer Harlem Renaissance I Wish I'd Known. It's a celebration of the Black queer writers, performers, and activists of 1920s America. George M. Johnson joins us to talk about Black and queer culture—how it impacted the past, how it enlivens our present, and how it can open up new possibilities for the future. This is a conversation about truth-telling, lineage, identity, and the stories that save us when we finally get to hear them. Full transcript is available here at relationscapes.org.  Show Notes Langston Hughes, "Let America Be America Again" Fellow Traveler Episodes Black and Beyond the Binary (with KB Brookins) Celebrating Black Womanhood (with Catherine Joy White) About the Guest George M. Johnson is an award-winning Black non-binary writer, author, and activist. They are the author of the bestselling Young Adult memoir All Boys Aren’t Blue discussing their adolescence growing up as a young Black Queer boy in New Jersey. Their other books include Flamboyants: The Queer Harlem Renaissance I Wish I'd Known, and There's Always Next Year. George has also published in places like Teen Vogue, The Root, Essence, Ebony, THEM, and The Grio.

Is it possible to raise kind, feminist boys in our era of manosphere misogyny? Sonora Jha, an Indian-American immigrant and single mother, says yes. But it takes a lot more than good intentions.  She reflects on raising her son across cultures, teaching empathy through film, talking frankly about sex, consent, and body image, and modeling apology without demanding forgiveness. She pushes back on the idea that feminism harms boys, showing how it can actually free them from shame, silence, and isolation. Sonora Jha joins us to talk about her book, How to Raise a Feminist Son: Motherhood, Masculinity, and the Making of My Family. Full transcript is available here at relationscapes.org.  Fellow Traveler Episodes Testosterone, Y Chromosomes, and Other Manly Excuses, with Matthew Gutmann Detoxing Masculinity, with Ronald Levant and Shana Pryor Masculinity, More Liberated and Free, with Frederick Joseph Learning About Masculinity Today from the Ancient Romans, with Mike Pope About the Guest After a career in journalism in India and Singapore, Dr. Sonora Jha became a professor at Seattle University. She is author of four books, including How to Raise a Feminist Son (2021). Her novels include The Laughter, which won the 2024 Washington State Book Award for Fiction and was named one of the Best Books of 2023 by the New Yorker, NPR, and others, Foreign (2013), a finalist for the Shakti Bhatt Prize and the Hindu Prize, and her latest, Intemperance. 

Adoption is often framed as a loving and selfless decision made by women who want to give their babies a better life—but many relinquishing mothers say it doesn’t actually feel like a real choice at all. Private domestic adoption in the U.S. operates under conditions of high demand, limited supply, and deep economic inequality. Researchers say women rarely choose adoption over abortion or parenting, and many relinquishing parents report long-term trauma.  Sociologist Gretchen Sisson draws on a decade of interviews in her book Relinquished: The Politics of Adoption and the Privilege of American Motherhood to examine who adoption really serves—and who it leaves behind.  She invites us to rethink adoption from the ground up, and asks what real support for families would actually look like. Full transcript is available here at relationscapes.org.  Show Notes Pricing the Priceless Child: The Changing Social Value of Children, by Viviana A. Zelizer The Turnaway Study: Ten Years, a Thousand Women, and the Consequences of Having—or Being Denied—an Abortion, by Diana Greene Foster Abolition Geography: Essays Towards Liberation, Ruth Wilson Gilmore  Fellow Traveler Episodes Relationscapes, "The Truth About Transracial Adoption, (with Angela Tucker)" Relationscapes, "What Disabled Parents Can Teach Everyone About Parenting (with Jessica Slice)" Relationscapes, "The Rebellious Act of Disabled Parenting (with Eliza Hull)" Relationscapes, "The Growing Perils of Pregnancy in America (with Irin Carmon)" About the Guest Gretchen Sisson studies abortion and adoption in the United States as a sociologist at Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health (ANSIRH) in the Department of Obstetrics, Gynecology and Reproductive Science at the University of California, San Francisco. She is the author of Relinquished: The Politics of Adoption and the Privilege of American Motherhood, based on hundreds of in-depth interviews with women who have relinquished infants for domestic adoption over the past 60 years.

We’re a little over halfway through January and already it's been...well, a lot. The Trump administration kidnapped the de facto Venezuelan president. The chairman of the Federal Reserve announced he’s being targeted for prosecution because the president wants to control monetary policy. A queer mother in Minneapolis was shot in the head in broad daylight by ICE, who is occupying the city, and the government has been trying to portray her as a terrorist. And etc. Andrea Pitzer is one of my favorite political analysts right now, and I asked her how we might make it out of this mess. She explains why the current moment feels so destabilizing, how mass detention becomes normalized, why exhaustion and disengagement are themselves political dangers, and what history tells us about stopping things before they get worse. This is a conversation about realism without despair, urgency without panic, and about how ordinary people can still matter. Especially when the future feels uncertain. Full transcript is available here at relationscapes.org.  Show Notes Next Comes What? podcast Degenerate Art newsletter Megan Piantowski's ICE zines. Dan Sinker's ICE whistle project About the Guest Andrea Pitzer is a journalist and author, known for her books One Long Night: A Global History of Concentration Camps, The Secret History of Vladimir Nabokov, and Icebound: Shipwrecked at the Edge of the World (2021). She hosts the popular podcast Next Comes What and writes the newsletter Degenerate Art.

The overturning of Roe v. Wade, which allowed states to outlaw abortion, has had devastating consequences for women across the country—especially because the American health care system was already making pregnancy more dangerous and more unequal in blue states and red states alike. In her new book Unbearable, journalist Irin Carmon tells the stories of five women whose experiences uncover the realities of pregnancy in America: infertility, abortion, miscarriage, criminalization, racial inequality, and more. Their stories reveal a central truth: America has made choices that make pregnancy more unbearable for more of us. They also reveal how none of this is inevitable or permanent.  Full transcript is available here at relationscapes.org.  Show Notes Irin Carmon's New York magazine archive About the Guest Irin Carmon is a senior correspondent at New York magazine and co-author of Notorious RBG: The Life and Times of Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Her latest book is Unbearable: Five Women and the Perils of Pregnancy in America. 

What happens when you stop chasing romantic love entirely? After ending a catastrophic relationship, acclaimed author Melissa Febos took an unexpected step: despite being a serial relationshipper, she decided to take a personal vow of celibacy. What began as a three-month break became a full year that transformed how she understood desire, boundaries, people-pleasing, and love itself. In her latest book The Dry Season: A Memoir of Pleasure in a Year Without Sex, Febos reflects on addiction-like romance, the freedom of solitude, feminist role models across history, and how abstaining from sex helped her reclaim agency to build healthier, more generous relationships. She joins us to talk about it in this episode.  Full transcript is available here at relationscapes.org.  Show Notes Annie Dillard, “Living Like Weasels” Audre Lorde, "The Uses of the Erotic: The Erotic as Power" Radiolab, "Choice," November 17, 2008; Barry Schwartz, The Paradox of Choice: Why More Is Less Top ten Roadrunner cartoons as curated by some guy on YouTube for his nieces What Your Therapist Thinks podcast  About the Guest Melissa Febos is the author of five books, including the national bestselling essay collection, Girlhood, winner of the National Book Critics Circle Award in Criticism. Her craft book, Body Work (2022), was also a national bestseller Her new memoir, The Dry Season, was published by Alfred. A. Knopf in June 2025. The recipient of fellowships and awards from the Guggenheim Foundation Fellowship, the National Endowment for the Arts, the British Library, MacDowell, the Bogliasco Foundation, the Black Mountain Institute, LAMBDA Literary, the American Library in Paris, and others, Melissa's work has appeared in publications like The Paris Review, The New Yorker, The Best American Essays, The New York Times Magazine, The Guardian, Elle, and Vogue. She holds an MFA from Sarah Lawrence College and is the Roy J. Carver Professor at the University of Iowa, where she teaches in the Nonfiction Writing Program. She lives in Iowa City with her wife, the poet Donika Kelly. From melissafebos.com.

We grow up swimming in gender stereotypes: men are from Mars, women are from Venus. Men are rational and women are emotional. The binary cliches are everywhere, but are they true? Daphna Joel is a neuroscientist who wanted to know what the science actually says. When she looked at real brains she discovered that each person carries a unique mix of traits, a true mosaic that defies the old binary. Daphna Joel joins us to talk about her groundbreaking book Gender Mosaic: Beyond the Myth of the Male and Female Brain. Full transcript is available here at relationscapes.org.    Show Notes Do your own gender mosaic at https://gendermosaic.tau.ac.il.   About the Guest Daphna Joel, PhD, is author of Gender Mosaic: Beyond the Myth of the Male and Female Brain. She is a professor of psychology and neuroscience at Tel Aviv University. She has combined her expertise as a neuroscientist with her interest in gender studies to revolutionize the field of sex, brain and gender.

The Bible remains one of the world's most influential books, impacting  believers and non-believers alike. As Christian nationalists gain more power over American politics right now, it's as important as ever to understand how the Bible is used to justify laws about abortion, gay marriage, child abuse, and more. Luckily, Bible scholar Dan McClellan is here to give us the data. He's become wildly famous on TikTok unpacking what the Bible really says about these contentious issues, and many more besides. His new book is called The Bible Says So: What We Get Right and Wrong about Scripture's Most Controversial Issues. Dan joins us to talk about it, about what it's like being a prominent TikToker, about his personal background, about comics, and more.   Full transcript is available here at relationscapes.org.  About the Author Dan McClellan is a public scholar of the Bible and religion and author of the New York Times bestseller, The Bible Says So: What We Get Right and Wrong about Scripture's Most Controversial Issues. He received his PhD in theology and religion from the University of Exeter. He enjoys confronting misinformation related to the Bible and religion online. He goes by @maklelan on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube.