[PREVIEW] Can A Body Acceptance Advocate Work for Weight Watchers?

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it's time for your October Extra Butter episode. Today we're talking about plus size fashion influencer and body acceptance advocate Katie Sturino — who teamed up with WeightWatchers last year. What happened there? And where is the line between body liberation activism and capitalism? (Yes, we struggle with that too!) To hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, you do need to be an Extra Butter subscriber. Join Extra Butter! Already an Extra Butter subscriber, and having a hard time getting this episode in your podcast player of choice? Step by step instructions are here! Episode 217 TranscriptCorinneWelcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! If you're listening to this, you are part of Extra Butter, which means you're our favorite Burnt Toasties. VirginiaYour support makes all our work possible and keeps Burnt Toast an ad- and sponsor free space. Which is relevant to today's conversation! CorinneToday, we're going to talk about influencer and advocate Katie Sturino, who became famous on Instagram for her #SuperSizeTheLook content and for creating the Megababe product line. But more recently, she teamed up with Oprah and Weight Watchers, and has gone public about her use of GLP-1s.VirginiaSo before we get into it, let me do my standard caveat that I give anytime we do one of these episodes where we talk about a particular person's work in deal. Body autonomy is a given at Burnt Toast. Katie has the right to take her GLP-1s. That is her business. We're not interrogating that personal decision. We are also not "women tearing down other women," which is the other go-to critique of this work. We're considering Katie's entire body of work here, and we're asking: Is this true body liberation activism? Or is this an example of capitalism co-opting activism? I think that's a valuable question for anyone in the influencing space to be grappling with. I think Corinne and I both walk that line as well in our work. So we are going to critique Katie and some of the professional choices she's made but this is a lens we all benefit from looking through. CorinneWith that, I feel that I need to disclose that I have received gifted products from Megababe.VirginiaFor example! It’s a gray area, guys. I have not, but I would have been happy to receive that gift. CorinneI recommended stuff from Megababe before I ever received free stuff! But I have received free stuff. And I do like some of their products. VirginiaThis episode is also not going to be a critique of specific products. Preventing thigh chafing is a noble endeavor.So how did you first encounter Katie Sturino? Do you remember when you first became aware of her work?CorinneIt's honestly hard for me to remember because I feel like she's been around for so long!VirginiaLike 10 years.CorinneIf not more!VirginiaIt was the mid-2010s when she really came onto the scene.CorinneI definitely encountered her Instagram. I think it was her style content. I remember seeing her going into a store and trying on stuff that didn't fit, or trying their biggest size and it wouldn't work for her. And then I also remember the #SuperSizeTheLook.VirginiaFor folks who don't know: #SuperSizeTheLook is a series where Katie picks a photo of a celebrity wearing a really cute outfit, and then styles herself wearing the same outfit. Usually not in identical pieces, because the sizes are not going to work. But she mimics the outfit, and she mimics the pose really well. If it's a celebrity getting out of a town car with a purse on her arm, Katie will also be getting out of a town car. Or walking a tiny dog. She mimics the whole vibe of the photo. And the goal is to show you that bigger bodies look cute in clothes. Which is a message we're here for! CorinneWhat about you? How did you first encounter her?VirginiaWhat's interesting about Katie and me is that we are the same age, we are both 44. And we both come out of the New York media world. I learned this all researching the episode; I don't know her personally. I never worked with her. But we have sort of similar trajectories into body liberation work.And when she first launched, her blog was originally called The 12ish Style. I was also a size 12-ish. Those were my Midsize Queen years, before moving into full plus sizes. So we've had similar trajectories of being in this space first a mid-sized person, and then a small fat person. I've always been interested in her fashion and the way she styles stuff, because it was often quite directly relevant to my own body, though not necessarily relevant to everybody. She is also, like, a foot taller than me, I think? She seems quite tall in photos and she wears very tall heels, too, which is impressive to me, if not actually something I can pull off. But I've always appreciated the vibe and the energy of Katie's content.  She's very open book. A lot of her posts are shot in her underwear, wearing no makeup, in a swimsuit. She's always showing us, "Here's what my real body looks like." There are critiques to be made of this genre of content making, but I think it's also powerful to see non-airbrushed, not super thin bodies. I think there's a lot of value in that. So I knew Megababe, I knew #SuperSizeTheLook, but I didn't know a ton of her backstory. So I did a little research, and most of what I'm going to share with you comes from a New York Times piece that ran in June with the headline, What Katie Sturino Wants You to Know About Her Body (and Yours, Too). This is by Madison Malone Kircher and it ran June 22, 2025.We're going to get into it later in the episode, but Katie is not thrilled with this piece. And I just want to say I have empathy for being in the New York Times and not being thrilled with the way they cover your work. Can relate! So I am going to quote from the piece, because I think it makes some interesting points, and there's some useful context in there. But I'm not saying this piece does the best job analyzing her work. The New York Times describes Katie as "a dog-obsessed public relations pro turned body positivity influencer slash entrepreneur, who built a social media audience by posting candidly about her life."Katie began her career in fashion PR. I think her first job was at Gucci or Dolce Gabbana. She then started her own PR firm in the 2010s. And then found found Internet fame as a dogager, which is a dog manager, running an Instagram account for her Cavalier King Charles Spaniel named Toast. So this is how she started. Did you know she was a dog influencer before she was a fashion influencer?CorinneI think I do vaguely remember that.VirginiaToast has since passed away. RIP Toast. Great name for a dog, obviously. But I did not know that she started as a dog influencer. That was news to me, and, frankly, rather delightful. But: Coming from a PR background, finding Internet fame through dog influencing...this is a very specific lens to which she's coming to this work. Katie is now a multi-hyphenate. She had a podcast called Boob Sweat. She wrote a non-fiction book Body Talk, which is an illustrated workbook about self love. She has a Substack newsletter. She has the Megababe the product line. And she published her first novel this spring. So Katie is very busy! She is doing a lot. Have you followed her for recs, or you've used Megababe? You like Megababe. CorinneI've used Megababe. I like Megababe. Her particular style has never quite been for me. It's hard to describe exactly what doesn't click for me. It's just very clear, even just reading the this bio—she's very savvy, she's always hustling, she always has kind of a business PR angle, which I both respect and don't relate to.VirginiaThis is her New York media roots. I never worked with Katie, but I worked with lots of Katies. I know this kind of hard-charging woman who's extremely smart and great at marketing and knows how to build a brand and talk to an audience. So she has that whole skill set—and she could be doing it about body positivity, she could be doing it about a dog. She's interested in building a brand. For example, let's consider her first novel Sunny Side Up. Katie tells the New York Times that she worked with a ghost writer: "I don't have the traditional path that a lot of people who write books have had, and I needed help," she said, adding she felt no shame or embarrassment about having a collaborator."I love how upfront she is about that. A lot of books are written by ghostwriters, and I sort of wish people were more aware of that. Mine were not. But I have been a ghost writer! So I don't mind that that's a part of it, but I do think that it's interesting that it wasn't Katie had a novel inside her that she was dying to write. It was that Katie knew that having a novel would be a good brand extension. And the novel is about a plus size fashion influencer who goes on to launch a plus size swimsuit line. And... Katie's plus size swimsuit line came out this summer right after the book launch.CorinneIt's honestly mind boggling. How does anyone handle all that?VirginiaYes, it's so many things. And it does make me take a slightly different look at some of her some of her body positive content. For example, a recurring theme is her in a swimsuit. And the caption is always something like, "figured you could use a size 18 woman in a swimsuit on your feed," just showing her normal body in a swimsuit. But now that I know she's selling the swimsuits that hits differently. So is that just a smart swimsuit marketing strategy or does it feel off to you? CorinneI mean, both? She seems incredibly smart. I'm just impressed that anyone can do as much as she's doing. And: I do think sometimes it feels like you're being sold to, you know?VirginiaAnd because her work is centered around a message that has a social justice component, and a self-help component: Where is the line between "these are her values, and she's built a business on her values, "and "she's co-opting advocacy rhetoric to sell us products?"CorinneIt's definitely a gray area. VirginiaTo further the gray area: I looked at more of her content and I'm also like, these swimsuits are pretty cute. There's also this whole Wirecutter piece I want to talk about, where she goes over her fashion favs. It's good! I clicked through so many links. I was like, "Do I want these $460 jeans? I don't know!"CorinneOh now I want to see them.VirginiaYet I'm also thinking: But you are supposed to be so raw and authentic, and this is your whole vibe, and you're showing us yourself in a swimsuit, because that's supposed to feel brave. First of all, that's problematic in and of itself. Can it stop being brave for fat women to wear swimsuits in public? I would love that to not be a heroic move anymore, but in Katie Sturino's world it is radical to do that, and she's doing it. And... she's selling us the swimsuit.CorinneWell I think there are a lot of ways in which Katie is a very acceptable spokesperson for this messaging. VirginiaSay more about that.CorinneWell, first of all, she has a background in PR. And I think, even at her biggest she's...VirginiaShe's glamorous.CorinneShe's pretty, and she has a certain style. She looks wealthy, I want to say.VirginiaWell, she sure is, because guess who officiated at their wedding? Former mayor of New York City, and friend of her family, Michael Bloomberg.CorinneOh, okay, yeah.VirginiaThis is from the New York Times: "In addition to their apartment in Chelsea, the couple splits their time between homes in Palm Beach, Florida and Maine."CorinneI mean, they are definitely in a different tax bracket than myself.VirginiaSo yes. Wealthy. CorinneBut there are also people who are wealthy and wear Blundstones and barn jackets, you know? She's wearing blazers and heels.VirginiaA lot of pantsuits.Corinne A lot of jewelry. And she's always on vacation somewhere tropical.VirginiaYeah, in an amazing caftan. She's leaning into glam.CorinneShe looks polished. VirginiaShe's very polished. It's very New York City. Like, Sex and the City vibes. She could hang out with Carrie Bradshaw and she would totally fit in with them at one of those fancy lunches. And that's cool. That's her aesthetic. It's also representative of a certain socioeconomic privilege level. This is something that I saw frequently in women's magazines, and something I talked about when Jenn Romolini came on the podcast: So many people who work in New York City media, at the high levels, come from privilege. It is a very nepo-baby-driven industry. Because these are jobs that you have to do tons of unpaid internships to get. And/or work for no money as an assistant. The only way you can do that is if you have family money supporting your ability to access these industries. So it's not surprising to me that she comes from a privileged background, because she comes from PR and fashion, and that's who works in those industries.And I still think it's interesting and somewhat transgressive to be a woman in a larger body in that world. It helps me understand why it felt radical to be a size 12 dressing like a celebrity, because a size 12 in that world is an extremely non-normative body, right? This is the tier of people who have access to all the personal trainers, who are playing tennis all summer. There is no space to be a fat person in that world. So even at a size 12, it feels like, oh my gosh, your body is so other. The scale is just different when you move in these different spaces. So I can critique the space. I can be like, okay, you're friends with billionaires, and that's a hard place to be in a larger body of any kind. Did you take a look at the Wirecutter piece where she was giving a lot of like clothing recs and it's like advice for dressing as a plus size person?CorinneYes, I did take a look at it. She does have some good recs in there. I will say very expensive recs. Her preferred white t-shirt is $100.VirginiaAnd you're going to get spaghetti sauce on it so fast. CorinneIt's a weird vibe. VirginiaOkay, so now let's talk about Oprah and Weight Watchers. In 2024 Katie posted a critique of the first ABC special Oprah did about GLP-1s. And she gave a fairly nuanced critique. There was stuff she liked, there was stuff she didn't like, but she specifically said, "They came so close, and I wish Weight Watchers had fully apologized for the harm they had caused by pushing all of us to diet and want to change our bodies for so long." She was like, oh, they almost got it, but they didn't. And then in response, CEO Sima Sistani got on Instagram and did apologize. She did this speech of, you're right, Katie. I was wrong. Like, we've been wrong. We've done harm, and kind of fully walked into it. So what was your take when that all happened? CorinneTo be honest, I wasn't paying too much attention. But I do think the best apology from Weight Watchers would be them closing down, you know? It's very weird to me to be like, "Yes, we realize we've done harm, and we're just going to keep doing it."VirginiaWell, and what they were really apologizing for was selling a plan that didn't work and now they're selling GLP-1s. So it's, "We have the thing that'll work now!" As opposed to apologizing for trying to make us all do this in the first place. CorinneEven Katie going on Instagram and calling out the CEO— something like that, would just never occur to me, because I don't know, I just would never expect someone at Weight Watchers to respond or care. And I also think Weight Watchers is a microcosm, you know? It's like, sure, Weight Watchers has done harm, and they're just part of a bigger system. And you're not acknowledging that there's a bigger system there.VirginiaWell and Katie did get a response. Now, on the one hand, Katie has many more Instagram followers than you, so there's that piece of it. But I think it's an open question how planned this was, and whether they had talked ahead of time that Katie would critique and that Sima Sistani would publish her apology. Because I mean number one, no Weight Watchers CEO can just casually hop on her Instastories and apologize without having run the plan by many lawyers to make sure that she wasn't going to tank the business. So that had to have been planned, to some extent. And then the next piece of this is later last year, Katie had her own interview with Oprah in a different special, this one sponsored by Weight Watchers. And then she went on to host a podcast for Weight Watchers. So at some point, Katie got paid by Weight Watchers. Whether it was not until she hosted the podcast, or whether she was paid to be on the special with Oprah, or whether she was in a sponsorship deal with them when she asked for the apology, we don't know. But at some point, she moved from activist to on the payroll of a diet company.CorinneWasn't her response like, "Well, they were going to pay someone, it might as well be me? Or like it might as well be a plus size person." VirginiaWhat she said in the Oprah interview is, "If we don't have this conversation, if we don't insert our voice into this conversation, someone else will. Someone else will make those decisions for us." That's her argument. She wants to be in the room where it happens. She wants to be representing plus size people to these companies and with these companies. But she's not doing it pro-bono. She's not Tigress Osborne, Executive Director of NAAFA, depending on fundraisers to pay for plane tickets to places. She's doing this as a multi-hyphenate with three homes who's now getting a paycheck from Weight Watchers.CorinneYeah, it's so complicated. Because on the one hand, I can see her point. If Weight Watchers is going to be giving money to someone, it's kind of good that they would be giving some of it to fat people. So on the one hand capitalism, we're all kind of forced to sell out in some way, and on the other hand, you don't love to see it. VirginiaYou don't love to see it.CorinneEspecially when that person has three homes. VirginiaIt's a moment where I think her experiences of marginalization as a fat person erased her ability to see her privilege as a wealthy, white person. If Weight Watchers is going to pay fat people, Katie Sturino is not the person I need them to pay! I am not the person I need them to pay. Those of us in a certain tax bracket, living at a certain privilege level, are not the ones who need cash reparations from Weight Watchers. It's lower income folks who have paid to be in those meetings for years and years, who took their daughters to those meetings, who this company preyed on because it was an "affordable" approach to weight loss. And took their money over and over again every time they regained the weight and came back.CorinneWell, this is all is reminding me of the book Dietland.VirginiaBy Sarai Walker, friend of the show, yes.CorinneWhere the the heiress of the diet company is using profits from the diet company to do a type of reparations, vigilante justice. VirginiaI don't think that that's what's happening here.And I want to look a little bit at what Katie's defense has been around all of this. She's not afraid to talk very directly to haters who criticize her about her body. So in the New York Times piece, she disclosed that she's taking a GLP-1 for her own weight loss, and she then shared in a video that this was a medical decision, that she didn't really care if she lost weight or not that it was doing it to manage her A1C whatever. Again, that's Katie's business. I have no opinion about that. But she's in a smaller body now—not down to a size 12, but a mid-sized body now—and she's still pushing herself as a face of this movement. And that is a little bit complicated. She's talked about how it doesn't matter what size she is, she gets flack all the time. Like, when she was a size 12, she was too small to be representing body positivity. As a 22 people said she was too big. She's always, always, always getting constant comments about her bodies. And you know, that is really hard to deal with. That is not welcome feedback.And it is tricky that she has made her body very much her brand, I don't know, I struggle with this. It sounds like I'm saying she's asking for it, and I'm not. But you're posting content in swimsuits all the time. You're showing us your rolls, and then you're saying we shouldn't talk about people's bodies. Bodies are the least interesting thing about us. But her body is very interesting to her. She's making it a center of her work.CorinneI mean, you're making some points. It's hard to land in one way or another here. I do think the cost to being a public figure in the way that she is, in some ways, is people harassing you. And I think that's horrible and too high a cost. I also think she's made some really strange decisions, like working with Weight Watchers and still wanting to defend body neutrality or whatever.VirginiaYeah, she prefers body neutrality to body positivity, we should say and that's fine. I'm not attached to either term, to be honest. CorinneI feel like I always end up more confused than than I started on these subjects.VirginiaWhere did you start? CorinneI think where I started was Katie Sturino neutrality. Like I just sort of felt like she's not my people or whatever, and then I do feel kind of bad for her getting all this criticism and and then also I just feel, mad that people have so much money. But what do we do? I don't know.VirginiaI think it's complicated by her decision to take the Weight Watchers money. I think if she was just taking GLP-1s, that's her own business. Her body changing is her own business, even though she makes content that really centers her body. I would be backing her, like, yeah, that's not for people to interrogate your body. It's still your body, it's not your business. And I think she's walking a really complicated line by deciding to then also monetize her weight loss, by hooking up with Weight Watchers. That feels different, because she's promoting Weight Watchers, which means she's selling weight loss to other people. She's suggesting that these GLP1s are a good option for other people. Maybe she hasn't directly said those words, but she has done the Oprah special. She's lent them her brand, which has a lot of credibility. Someone said to me, l"I go out of my way to buy Megababe, even though it costs a little more than comparable products, because I want to support Katie. I want to back her work." People invest in her because they believe in her mission. CorinneThat's true.VirginiaAnd now she has attached that mission to Weight Watchers, which is selling GLP1s and obviously selling weight loss. That's where it loses me a little for her to then be like, how dare people talk about my body? You're literally selling this new version of your body. You're showing it to us because you're marketing this thing. That's where it gets really murky. On the other hand, there's a video that I'll link to where she talks quite a lot about how the internal work we need to do on body acceptance has nothing to do with the scale, and she does seem to really want to make the point that she feels very detached from her own weight loss numbers. That's not why she's on it. And she makes the point that if you don't do your own internal work, you can lose tons of weight, and you would still be miserable with your body. The weight loss is not a solution for body image struggles. And I think that's valuable. And I think there are a lot of people who listen to her who need to hear that. So I think that's useful. And it then is confusing that she's like, "But also Weight Watchers is great now."CorinneOne through line in a lot of her content is that it does feel like sometimes the bigger picture is missing, like the intersectionality. I'm not a super close follower, so maybe I'm just missing it. But I feel like I'm not seeing her do a ton of advocacy for other fat people.VirginiaWell, she really stays in her lane, which is fashion. I don't hear her talking about healthcare access, don’t hear her talking about workplace discrimination, housing discrimination. Definitely not how anti-fatness intersects with racism and other marginalization. I don't think that's a focus of hers. And in some ways, that's fine, and in some ways that shows, I think, that she's not here for a deep dive into the world of fat liberation. Okay, so our big Burnt Toast question that we ask in all these episodes: Is Katie Sturino a diet?CorinneYes?VirginiaShe is selling a diet...by working with Weight Watchers. CorinneAnd I think just by embodying a very narrow line of fatness.VirginiaShe is selling a specific image of acceptable fatness.CorinneWhat's your take?VirginiaI started this episode wanting to be able to say no, in part just because everybody expects me to say yes.CorinneI know I think I'm usually on the no side. VirginiaYeah, you're usually the no and I'm usually the yes. But I think the more we talk about it, I think I'm landing there as well. But I also think she's the embodiment of this larger issue, which is: So much activism happens through social media now. And social media is a business. It is where people are building brands and making money and that means that activism gets infused with business in these really messy ways. I think plus size fashion influencers as a category have really not done a great job with this, because we have seen this trajectory of using body positivity rhetoric, even fat liberation rhetoric, and centering fat joy, celebrating you look so great in all the clothes... and then forgetting all of the other work that goes along with that, and then if they manage to achieve body changes, very quickly changing their tune about how important all of this is. I don't think she's Rosey Beeme, who's like, "Forget I ever liked fat people." I don't think she's that at all, but I do think she has not done the work of intersectionality here. CorinneYeah. It kind of feels like a like microcosm of everything that's happening in the US right now. VirginiaFor sure, for sure.CorinneIt's hard to not just extrapolate out. VirginiaSo are we saying I should not order the $460 jeans?CorinneI mean, don't ask me on this stuff, because I'm always like I do want to know. I do want to know if they're good jeans. VirginiaI do want to know. I am curious!  CorinneThis would make a good Patreon post. VirginiaI don't know that they would fit me. I have to look at the size chart and figure out if it's like a Gap 35 or if it's like a designer brand 35.CorinneI feel like it depends on if they have stretch or not. I bet they do. Katie seems like someone who would be going for stretch jeans.VirginiaShe does also do all those underwear tests where she checks whether things rolls down. That's valuable content. CorinneShe is brave. She's doing the videos that personally I would not want to do.VirginiaYou don't see me on my in my underwear on the Internet. I mean, I am on WikiFeet, but that was not my choice. That's as scandalous as I get. All right. Well, that was a very interesting conversation. Listeners, we want to hear what you think. Where do you land on this one? Have you followed her work? Have you felt, had mixed feelings about the Weight Watchers of it all? Do you have a totally different take? You can tell us in the comments. ButterVirginiaOkay, my Butter, I gave you a little preview. You can tell because we're on Zoom together, and you can see a different background behind me. But I moved my desk to a different part of my–actually, not even a different part of my office. I moved it from being parallel with the wall to being kitty corner between two walls. And I'm so much more comfortable in my office! And I realized I had my desk too close to the wall and it was not size inclusive. I was always bumping up against the wall behind me, and what a dumb thing to do in one's home office where you have total control. I had just decided the desk needed to face a certain way. I don't know what made me think it was necessary. A lot of it is the pressure on having a good Zoom background? But I've decided unless I'm doing TV or something, I'm going to keep my desk in a more comfortable place. CorinneI think that's really reasonable. VirginiaAnd it just made me think: How many other small ways do we accept our homes or our cars or whatever not being comfortable for our bodies? Like this cost $0. I literally slid the desk over to make more room. Make more room for yourselves!CorinneTotally, it's so funny how hard that stuff is to notice sometimes.VirginiaI hadn't even realized that's why I was uncomfortable. I do also need a new desk chair. If people have desk chair recs, I want those in the comments as well. I really would like to know because I'm in a crappy West Elm ancient desk chair. It's like oddly off balance. It's not good for my lower back. But I want one that's not a million dollars and not ugly.CorinneGood luck with that. I'm also really admiring your Cape Cod collarless sweatshirt.VirginiaOh, my cut collar sweatshirt. It's really cute, right? It was too tight in the neck. It's pretty tight in the waist. I was debating maybe cutting that somehow too I haven't quite figured out. Like, if I cut off the band at the bottom and it's just sort of like, boxy, would that be cute? CorinneI think it would be cute. I think it'd be more cropped. VirginiaCorinne, what's your Butter?CorinneMy Butter is a Butter that has been Buttered before. It's Taskmaster. I know it has been mentioned by other burnt toast guests, but you know what it is, or?Virginia it's an app where people come and do things for you?CorinneNo, nope. That's TaskRabbit.VirginiaI was like, why are you recommending the gig economy? CorinneAnd I've actually had very mixed results with TaskRabbit. Not recommending that one. Someone blew up a light bulb on my ceiling. That's a story for another day. TaskMaster is a British TV show, there's a comedian host, and then there are like five comedian guests, and they get assigned psychotic tasks. Like, I don't know, like, open this paper bag without using your arms or some seemingly impossible task, and then you watch them do it, and they get ranked and get points. The first episode that I watched, I was laughing so hard, I was crying, peeing my pants, like my abs were sore. And it is just very easy to watch, like, you just laugh and it's funny.VirginiaI don't usually do reality TV with my kiddo for our show, yeah, but this does sound like a fun one to watch with her. CorinneYeah, I will say there's like, some mild--they're comedians, so there's some mild innuendo and stuff.VirginiaI mean, I think I'm going to write a whole essay about this, but I love watching inappropriate television with my children. I think it opens up many great conversations.CorinneGreat. Well, you should definitely watch it, though it's on YouTube, and I have been paying for seasons. But someone actually in the Burnt Toast chat today was saying that they watch it for free on YouTube. So now I'm confused. I really am enjoying Taskmaster.VirginiaWell, that's delightful, yeah, all right. Well, this was a great episode. Excited to hear what everyone thinks about. What furniture are you moving, what tasks are you completing, tell us in the comments. The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. Today, my conversation is with Lisa Sibbett, PhD. Lisa writes The Auntie Bulletin, a weekly newsletter about kinship, chosen family and community care. As a long time Auntie herself, Lisa often focuses on the experiences of people without children who are nevertheless, in her words, "cultivating childful lives." We’ve been talking a whole bunch about community on Burnt Toast lately, and Lisa reached out to have a conversation about the systems that get in the way of our community building efforts—specifically our culture's systemic isolation of the nuclear family. This is one of those conversations that isn't "classic Burnt Toast." But we're here to do fat liberation work—and so how we think about community matters here, because community is fundamental to any kind of advocacy work. Plus it brings us joy! And joy matters too. I super appreciate this conversation with Lisa, and I know you will too.Join our community! Today’s episode is free! But don't forget, if you were a Substack subscriber, you have until October 28 to claim your free access to our paid content. Check your email for your special gift link! Episode 216 TranscriptLisaSo my newsletter is about building kinship and community care. I live in cohousing, and I’ve been an auntie for many years to lots of different kids. I’ve always been really involved in the lives of other people’s children. And people who have lives like mine, we often don’t really have even language for describing what our experience is like. It’s sort of illegible to other people. Like, what’s your role? Why are you here?And all of this has really blossomed into work that’s definitely about loving and supporting families and other people’s children, but I also write about elder care and building relationships with elders and building community and cohousing. And I have a chronic illness, so I sometimes write about balancing self-care and community care. VirginiaI have been an instant convert to your work, because a lot of what you write really challenges me in really useful ways. You have really made me reckon with how much I have been siloed in the structure of my life. It’s funny because I actually grew up with a kind of accidental–it wasn’t quite cohousing. We had two separate houses. But I was the child of a very amicable divorce, and my four parents co-parented pretty fluidly. So I grew up with adults who were not my biological parents playing really important roles in my life. And I have gotten to the point where I’m realizing I want a version of that for my kids. And that maybe that is just a better model. So it's fascinating to consider what that can look like when not everybody has those very specific circumstances. LisaIt’s a dreamy setup, actually, to have amicably divorced parents and extra parents.VirginiaI’m super proud of all of my parents for making it work. My sister —who is my half sister from my dad’s second marriage—has a baby now. And my mom made the first birthday cake for them. There are a lot of beautiful things about blended families. When they work, they’re really amazing. And it always felt like we were doing something kind of weird, and other people didn’t quite understand our family. So I also relate to that piece of it. Because when you say "cohousing community," I think a lot of folks don’t really know what that term means. What does it look like, and how does it manifest in practice? What is daily life like in a cohousing community? LisaThere are different synonyms or near neighbor terms for cohousing. Another one is "intentional community." Back in the day, we might think about it as kind of a commune, although in the commune structure, people tended to actually pool their finances. I would say that cohousing is a much more kind of hybrid model between having your own space and being up in each other’s spaces and sharing all of the resources. Join the Burnt Toast community! So I really think of cohousing as coming frpm where so many dreamy social policies come from: Scandinavia. In Denmark and I think other countries in Northern Europe there is a lot of intentional urban planning around building shared, communal living spaces where there are things like community kitchens and shared outdoor space for lots of different residences. So that’s kind of the model that cohousing in the US tends to come from. And sometimes it’s people living together in a house. Sometimes it’s houses clustered together, or a shared apartment building. It can look a lot of different ways. The shared attribute is that you’re attempting to live in a more communal way and sharing a lot of your familial resources. In my cohousing community, there are just three households. It’s really, really small. We really lucked into it. My partner and I were displaced due to growth in our city, and needed to find a new place to live. And we had been talking with some friends for years about hoping to move into cohousing with them. But it’s very hard to actually make happen. It takes a lot of luck, especially in urban environments, but I think probably anywhere in the United States, because our policies and infrastructure are really not set up for it. So we were thinking about doing cohousing with our friends. They were going to build a backyard cottage. We were thinking about moving into the backyard cottage, but it was feeling a little bit too crowded. And then my partner was like, "Well, you know, the house next door is for sale." So it was really fortuitous, because the housing market was blowing up. Houses were being sold really, really fast, but there were some specific conditions around this particular house that made it possible for us to buy it. So we ended up buying a house next door to our friends. And then they also have a basement apartment and a backyard cottage. So there are people living in the basement apartment, and then, actually, the backyard cottage is an Airbnb right now, but it could potentially be expanded. So we have three households. One household has kids, two households don’t, and our backyard is completely merged. We eat meals together four nights a week or five nights a week. Typically, we take turns cooking for each other, and have these big communal meals, and which is just such a delight. And if your car breaks down, there’s always a car to borrow. We share all our garden tools, and we have sheds that we share. There are a lot of collective resources, and availability for rides to the airport ,and that kind of thing. VirginiaThere are just so many practical applications! LisaIt’s really delightful. Prior to moving into cohousing, we never hosted people at all. I was very averse to the idea of living in shared space. I was really worried about that. But because we have our own spaces and we have communal spaces, it sort of works for different people’s energies. And I certainly have become much more flexible and comfortable with having lots of people around. I’m no longer afraid of cooking for 12 people, you know? So it just makes it a lot easier to have a life where you can go in and out of your introversion phases and your social phases.VirginiaI’m sure because you’re around each other all the time, there’s not the same sense of "putting on your outgoing personality." Like for introverts, when we socialize, there’s a bit of a putting on that persona.LisaTotally. It’s much more like family. We’re kind of hanging around in our pajamas, and nobody’s cleaning their houses. VirginiaYou have that comfort level, which is hard to replicate. It’s hard even for people who are good friends, but haven’t sort of intentionally said, "We want this in our relationship. "There are all those pressures that kick in to have your house look a certain way. This is something I’ve been writing about —how the hosting perfectionism expectations are really high. Messy House Hosting! LisaAbsolutely, yeah. And it’s just such an impairment for us to have to live that way.VirginiaFor me, it took getting divorced to reckon with wanting to make some changes. I mean, in a lot of ways, it was just necessary. There were no longer two adults in my household. The moving parts of my life were just more. I suddenly realized I needed support. But it was so hard to get over those initial hurdles. Almost every other friend I’ve had who’s gotten divorced since says the same thing. Like, wait, I’m going to ask people for a ride for my child? It’s this huge stumbling block when, actually, that should have been how we’re all parenting and living. But it really shows how much marriage really isolates us. Or, a lot of marriages really isolate us. Our beliefs about the nuclear family really isolate us and condition us to feel like we have to handle it all by ourselves. So I would love to hear your thoughts on where does that come from? Why do we internalize that so much? LisaVirginia, you’ve been cultivating this wonderful metaphor about the various things that are diets. VirginiaMy life’s work is to tell everybody, "everything is a diet."LisaEverything’s a diet! And I feel like it’s such a powerful metaphor, and I think it really, really applies here. The nuclear family is such a diet. You have done, I think, the Lord’s work over the last couple of years, helping us conceptualize that metaphor around what does it mean to say something is a diet? And the way that I’m thinking of the Virginia Sole-Smith Model of Diet Culture is that there’s an oppressive and compulsory ideal that we’re all supposed to live up to. If we’re not living up to it, then we’re doing it wrong, and we need to be working harder. And there’s this rewarding of restriction, which, of course, then increases demands for consumer goods and forces us to buy things. Then, of course, it also doesn’t actually work, right? And all of that is coming out of a culture of capitalism and individualism that wants us to solve our problems by buying stuff. VirginiaI mean, I say all the time, Amazon Prime was my co-parent.LisaI think the nuclear family is just part of that whole system of individualism and consumerism that we’re supposed to be living in. It really benefits the free market for us all to be isolated in these little nuclear families, not pulling on shared resources, so we all have to buy our own resources and not being able to rely on community care, so we have to pay for all of the care that we get in life. And that is gross. That’s bad. We don’t like that. And you also have written, which I really appreciate, that it’s a very logical survival strategy to adhere to these ideals, especially the farther away you are from the social ideal. If you're marginalized in any way, the more trying to adhere to these ideals gives us cover.To me, that all just maps onto the nuclear family without any gaps. Going back to your specific question about why is it so hard to not feel like in an imposition when you’re asking for help: We’re just deeply, deeply, deeply conditioned to be self reliant within the unit of the family and not ask for help. Both you and I have interviewed the wonderful Jessica Slice in the last few months, and she has really helped me.Jessica wrote Unfit Parent. She’s a disabled mom, and she has really helped me think about how interdependence and asking for help is actually really stigmatized in our culture, and the kind of logical extension of that for disabled parents is that they get labeled unfit and their kids get taken away. But there’s a whole spectrum there of asking for help as a weakness, as being a loser, as being really deeply wrong, and we should never do it. And we’re just, like, deeply conditioned in that way. VirginiaSpeaking of community care: My 12-year-old was supposed to babysit for my friend’s daughter this afternoon, she has like a standing Tuesday gig. And my younger child was going to go along with her, to hang out, because she’s friends with the younger kiddo. I was going pick them up later. But then we heard this morning that this little friend has head lice. And that did make the community care fall apart! LisaOh no. It’s time to isolate!  VirginiaWhile I want us all to be together....LisaThere can be too much togetherness. You don’t want to shave your head.VirginiaThat said, though: It was a great example of community care, because that mom and I are texting with our other mom friends, talking about which lice lady you want to book to come deal with that, and figuring out who needs to get their head checked. So it was still a pooling of resources and support, just not quite the way we envisioned anyway. LisaIt always unfolds in different ways than we expect.VirginiaBut what you’re saying about the deeply held belief that we have to do it all, that we’re inconveniencing other people by having needs: That myth completely disguises the fact that actually, when you ask for help, you build your bonds with other people, right? It actually is a way of being more connected to people. People like to be asked for help, even if they can’t do it all the time. They want to feel useful and valuable and and you can offer an exchange. This sounds so silly, but in the beginning I was very aware, like, if I asked someone for a ride or a play date, like, how soon could I reciprocate to make sure that I was holding up my end of the bargain? And you do slowly start to drift away from needing that. It’s like, oh no, that’s the capitalism again, right? That’s making it all very transactional, but it’s hard to let go of that mindset. LisaYeah, and it just takes practice. I mean, I think that your example is so nice that just over time, you’ve kind of loosened up around it. It's almost like exposure therapy in asking for help. It doesn’t have to be this transactional transaction.VirginiaAnd I think you start to realize, the ways you can offer help that will work for you, because that’s another thing, right? Like, we have to manage our own bandwidth. You wrote recently that sometimes people who aren’t in the habit of doing this are afraid that now I’ll have to say yes to everything, or this is going to be this total overhaul of my life. And  No. You can say no, because you know you say yes often enough. So talk about that a little bit.Community building for introverts!LisaAbsolutely. I come at this from a perspective of living with chronic illness and disability where I really need to ration my energy. I’ve only been diagnosed in the last few years, and prior to that I just thought that I was lazy and weak, and I had a lot of really negative stories about my lack of capacity, and I’m still unlearning those. But over the past few years, I’ve been really experimenting with just recognizing what I am capable of giving and also recognizing that resting is a necessary part of the process of being able to give. If I don’t rest, I can’t give. And so actually, I’m doing something responsible and good for my community when I rest. You know, whatever that resting looks like for me or for other people, and it can look a lot of different ways. Some people rest by climbing rocks. I am certainly not one of those people, but...VirginiaThat is not my idea of relaxation. LisaBut, whatever, it takes all kinds, right? And I think that the systems of community care are so much more sustainable the more that we are showing up as our authentic selves. VirginiaYou talked about how you schedule rest for yourself. I’d love to hear more about that. LisaThat was an idea that I got from a really, really, really good therapist, by far the best therapist I’ve ever had, who herself lives with chronic illness and chronic pain. She initially suggested to me that whenever I travel--I have a hard time with travel--that, like, if I travel for three days, I need to book three days of rest. If I travel for two weeks, I need to book two weeks of rest. That’s a radical proposition to me, and one that I still am like, yeah, I don’t know if I can quite make that happen. But it did inspire me to think about what would work for me. And the reality of my life for many, many years, is that on a cycle of one to two weeks, I have at least one day where I just collapse and am incapable of doing anything. I can’t get out of bed. So this conversation with my therapist inspired me to go, you know, maybe I should just calendar a day of rest every week. Instead of having an uncontrolled crash, I can have a controlled crash, and then I’m making the decision ahead of time that I’m going to rest, rather than having to emergently rest when other people are relying on me for something, right? It just actually makes me more reliable to rest on a calendar.VirginiaAnd it honors that need. You’re not pretending that’s not going to happen or hoping you can skip by without it. You’re like, no, this is a real need. This is going to enable me to do the other things I want to do. So let’s just embrace that and make sure that’s planned for. It’s really, really smart.LisaWell, and you know, I’ll say that not having kids makes it much easier, of course. But I hope that there are ways that parents can schedule in little pieces of rest, even, of course, it’s probably not like an entire Saturday. But, the more that families lean into aunties and community care, the more that that space can be carved out. VirginiaSo let’s talk about the auntie piece. Is it just something, like, because these friends live next door and they had kids, you found yourself playing that role? How do you cultivate being an auntie? LisaThat’s a great question. For me it was kind of both always going to happen and a conscious choice. I grew up in a big family. I’m one of six kids. I spent a lot of time babysitting as a kid for both my siblings and all the kids in my town, and some of my siblings are a lot older than me, so I became an aunt in my teens, and so I’ve always had kids in my life. Really, I can’t think of a time when I didn’t have little ones around, which I think is a real benefit, not a lot of people have that kind of life. And I was raised by early childhood educators. My mom is a teacher. My grandma was a preschool teacher. My other grandma is a teacher. There are a lot of teachers in my family, and a lot of them worked with little kids, so there are a lot of resources available to me.But then I also did have to make some conscious choices. I think that one of the early things that happened for me was one of my best friends asked me to be her child’s godmother, and that kid is now 17. I know, she’s a teenager, oh my god. So that relationship in my 20s started to condition me to think: How do I really show up for a family? How do I really show up for a child that’s not my own child? And then when we moved into cohousing, which was in 2019 right before the pandemic started. We knew that we would be involving ourselves more in the life of a family. More on Lisa's childful lifeAt that time, my partner and I were hoping to have kids, and I ended up losing a lot of pregnancies. We decided to not become parents, but so we were initially envisioning sort of raising our kids together, right? And then when my partner and I decided not to have kids, one of the things that we sort of decided to pivot toward is like, well, we’re going to really invest in these kids who live in our community, which we already were, because the pandemic hit and we were a bubble. So many people know the story. All the adults are working full time. There’s no childcare. There are little kids. So it was really all hands on deck during that time, and it really pushed our community into a structure of lots and lots of interdependence around childcare and I spent a lot of time with these kids when they were really little, and that really cemented some bonds and forced us to make some very conscious decisions about how we want to be involved in each other’s lives. To the point that once you get very involved in the lives of kids, you can’t exit. Like, even if you wanted to. And so that changes your whole life trajectory. Moving to Mexico is off the table for me and my partner until these kids are at least out of the house, and that’s many years down the road, right? It would be harmful for us to separate from these kids at this point. So, there are conscious decisions and just sort of happenstance. And I think for anybody who’s interested in becoming an auntie or recruiting an auntie: Every situation is kind of different. But the piece about making conscious decisions is really important and requires sometimes scary conversations where we have to put ourselves out there and be vulnerable and take risks to let our loved ones know that we would like to form these kind of relationships. VirginiaAs someone on the side with the kids, my fear would be that I’m asking this huge favor, and like, oh my gosh, what an imposition. Because kids are chaos and these friends have a lovely, child-free life--I love my children, standard disclaimer. LisaKids are total chaos.VirginiaKids are always in whatever vortex of feelings and needs that that particular age and stage requires and asking someone to show up for that is, it’s big. It’s big.LisaWell, I definitely can’t speak for all childless people, definitely not. But there are a lot of aunties who read The Auntie Bulletin, several thousand people who read The Auntie Bulletin, and a lot of shared values there in our community. Something that I think is a common feature among people who are aunties, or who want to be aunties, is: We really recognize how much we benefit from being in relationship with families. There are a lot of people, myself included, who were not able to have children and really want to have a child-ful life. We would feel a loss if we didn’t have kids in our lives. And so this was something that I was reckoning with during the pandemic, when my partner and I were providing really a lot of childcare for another family. People would ask me: Do you feel like you’re getting taken advantage of? What are you getting in return? What I realized during that time was, I’m getting paid back tenfold, because I get to have these kids in my life for the rest of my life, but I don’t have to do the hard stuff. And that’s really important. Parenting, I don’t have to tell you, is very hard. As a person with chronic illness and disability at this point, I’m very glad that I don’t have kids, because I don’t think actually that I have the stamina. It's not about capacity for love, it’s just about straight up physical energy. And so I’m able to have the benefits as an auntie of being parent-adjacent, without the cost. So I’m the winner in that transaction. And I think a lot of aunties think that way.VirginiaWell, that’s really encouraging to hear. And I think, too, what you’re talking about is just having really good communication, so people can say what they can do and also have their boundaries honored when they have to set a limit. That’s key to any good relationship, so it would apply here too. Subscribe to Burnt Toast! LisaYeah, totally.VirginiaThinking about other barriers that come up. I’ve been reading, and I know you’re a fan too, of Katherine Goldstein, and she’s been writing such interesting critiques right now of how youth sports culture really derails families’ abilities to participate in community. That’s a whole fairly explosive topic, because people are really attached to their sports. So, I’ll save the specifics of that for some time I have Katherine on to discuss this. Are youth sports a diet? Yes, absolutely. And we are not a sports family, but when she wrote about it, I immediately recognized what she meant, because every fall I noticed that my kids' friends become much less available for play dates because it’s soccer season. And it’s like, waiting for when soccer practice will be over, so that so-and-so might come over. Suddenly, even as a non-sports family, I feel like I’m loosely revolving around these schedules. And to bring it back to your work: That is one aspect of parenting culture that is really feeding into this isolation problem and this lack of community problem. This way that we’ve decided parenting has to be so intensive and performative around sports makes people actually less available to their communities. So this is a long way of asking my question: Do you think what we’re really talking about here is a problem with the institution of marriage or the institution of parenting, or is it a bit of both?LisaThat’s so interesting. I do think that youth sports is, like, by far, the kind of biggest engine of this. But there also are families that are, like, deep, deep, deep into youth performing arts that would have the same kind of function.Virginia Dance is another big one. Competitions taking up every weekend.LisaOr youth orchestra, sometimes those can be incredibly consuming and also incredibly expensive. So going with the grain of the parents that are really hyper investing in their kids activities: They will find community in those places often, right? It's a sort of substitute community for the length of the season, or whatever. And then my question is: What’s the culture within those spaces? Is it like, hyper competitive? Is it about getting to the national championship? Is there a sense of community? Is there a sense of supporting kids around resilience when things don’t go the way that they want them to? The cultures within these spaces matter. And I think it just ties back to the way that the nuclear family is a diet. Because we are so deeply incentivized to be fearful in our culture and to treat our problems with money, goods, services, activities. And the fear, I think, for a lot of parents, is that their kids are going to not have a good and happy life. So then there’s what Annette Lareau, an educational researcher, calls concerted cultivation, particularly among more bourgeois middle class families of trying to schedule kids to the hilt, to make sure that they get every opportunity in life, and they can therefore succeed through every hurdle, and never have any adversity. Or that the adversity that they have is character building adversity in some way. And so I think that the hyper-involvement in kids activities does come from fear that’s motivated by capitalism. And is that an issue of parenting culture or marriage culture or capitalist culture or gender culture?VirginiaAll of it. Yes. I mean, one thing I think about, too, is how these activities create their own community. But it's a very homogenous community. The child-free folks aren't there, because it’s only soccer families or dance families or whatever. And you’re only going to get families who can afford to do the activity. So it's a self-selecting group. This is not to say I’m doing a great job cultivating a more diverse community for my kids. I live in a white majority town. This is hard for all of us. We’re not saying you all have to quit your sports! But if that’s your primary community, that is going to narrow things in a in a way that’s worth reflecting on. To bring this a little more fully into the Burnt Toast space, where we talk about diet as metaphor, but also diets specifically: One question I am asked a lot from the aunties in the Burnt Toast community, is, "How do I show up for the kids in my life that are not my own, I don’t get to make the parenting calls, but for whom I still want to model anti-diet values?" Maybe there’s stuff the parents are doing with food that's sending a weird message, or dieting in the home, that kind of thing. LisaWell, my sense is for myself—and I try to preach this gospel at The Auntie Bulletin— is that there are a lot of these moments for non-parents who are really deeply invested in the lives of kids, where it’s not our call. And it’s just a tricky terrain for aunties or any kind of allo-parental adults who are involved in the lives of kids who aren’t their own kids. I’m really fortunate that most of my friends are pretty on board with an anti-diet philosophy. The people who are close to me, where I’m really involved in feeding kids are on the same page. But it comes up in other ways, right? Where I might have a different perspective than the parents. My sense is really that aunties do need to follow parents' lead that it’s actually quite important to honor parents’ decision makings for their kids. And we can be sort of stealthy ninjas around how we disrupt cultural conditioning more broadly. So I’m not super close to their parents, but we’ve got some kids in our neighborhood who are buddies with the kids who are a big part of my life. And those neighborhood kids get a lot of diet conditioning at home. There’s this little girl, she’s in fourth grade, and she’s always telling me about her mom’s exercise and saying that she can't get fat and she can’t eat that popsicle and things like that, which is really heartbreaking to witness. And it’s exactly that kind of situation where it’s like, I’m invested in this as a just a member of our society, but I also care about these kids, and it’s just not my call, you know? So I can just say things like, "Well, I like my body. I feel good that I have a soft body and I’m going to have another brownie. It tastes really good." And just kind of speak from my own experience, where I’m not necessarily trying to argue with their parents, or trying to convince the kid of something different. I’m just modeling something different for them. And I think it’s totally fine to say, "In my house, you’re allowed to have another brownie if you want one!" VirginiaThat modeling is so powerful. Having one example in their life of someone doing it differently, can plant that seed and help them reframe, like, oh, okay, that’s not the only way to think about this conversation. That’s really useful.LisaAnd I think affirming difference whenever we have the opportunity to do so is important. When a kid comments on somebody’s body size or shape, you can just always say, "Isn’t it great how people are different? It’s so wonderful. There’s so much variety."VirginiaRelated to modeling and fostering anti-diet values: I think there is a way that this collective approach to living and being in community with each other runs quite counter to mainstream narratives around what is good behavior, what are social expectations, and which groups do we let take up space. I’m thinking about how the group of soccer moms is allowed to be a community that everyone has paid to participate in, while the Black neighborhood having a block party might have the cops called on them. So, talk a little bit about how you see collectivism as also an act of radicalism.LisaYeah, thank you for that question. It’s such a good one. A soccer community that is literally pay to play, where there are increasing tiers of elitenes—that is coded as very respectable in our society. Whereas a block party in a neighborhood of color is coded as disrespectable, unrespectable, disreputable. The music is loud and the people are being inconsiderate and their bodies are hanging out. There is all of this stigma around collectivism. I find for myself it’s very insidious and subtle, the ways that collectivism is stigmatized. I have a theoretical allegiance to collectivism, but it takes having to actually ask for help to notice our friction and our resistance to that. You were talking about that earlier in the follow up to your divorce. And I’ve had that experience, when I’ve needed to ask for help around my disability and chronic illness, and there’s all of a sudden this feeling of like, oh, I shouldn’t ask for help. Oh, there’s something wrong with that. And I think that there actually is a dotted line there between our resistance to asking for help and that feeling like we’re doing something bad and anti-Blackness, anti-brownness, anti-queerness. Community is so, so essential for queer folks who have had to find their own family, choose their own community for for for generations. There’s this kind of whiff of disreputability around collectivism, and these narratives around these kids are running wild and bodies are hanging out and the music’s too loud, and like, what’s going on there? What are they eating? VirginiaThere are so many ways we police it all.LisaIt’s all really, really policed. I think that’s really well put. So I think it's important to reclaim collectivism and reframe collectivism as legitimate, valuable, important, meaningful. Collectivism is something that a lot of people who live in dominant white communities have actually had taken from us through the medium of compulsory individualism. We need to reclaim it, and we need to not stigmatize it in all the communities that are around us and our neighbors.VirginiaMaybe instead, we should be looking at other communities as examples to emulate.LisaAs resources, absolutely. The disability community as well. VirginiaI think that’s really helpful, and I’m sure it gives folks a lot to think about, because it just continues to show up in so many small ways. Even as you were describing that I was thinking about the stress response that kicks in for me after I host a gathering, and my house is left in whatever state it’s left in. And it’s like, of course, the house is messy. You just had 12 people over, and there are seltzer cans laying around and throw pillows out of place. That’s because you lived in your house. You used it. But there’s this other part of my brain that’s so conditioned to be like, well, the house has to be tidy. And now it looks like you’re out of control. But it’s that kind of thing, that inner policing we do, that is very much related to this larger societal policing that we participate in.LisaAbsolutely, yeah.VirginiaAny last tips for folks who are like, okay, I want to be doing more of this. Particularly folks who want to connect with child free folks, or for child free folks who are listening, who want to connect with more families with kids. Any little nudges, baby steps people can take towards building this?LisaMy big nudge is to practice courage, because it’s scary to put yourself out there. You have to be vulnerable when you ask to build a relationship that’s deeper with people. And I think it actually is analogous, in some ways, to forming romantic relationships. You have to take some risks to say what you want, and that’s a scary thing to do, but there are lots and lots of people out there who want to be more involved in the lives of families. And there are lots and lots of families out there who need more support.VirginiaWhen you were talking about the pandemic, I was like, I would have killed for an auntie. LisaEvery family needs an auntie. Two adults I love, Rosie Spinks and Chloe Sladden who both have wonderful newsletters, have been writing about this lately, that even having two adults is just not enough to run a household in the structure of society that we live in. I think that that’s right, even if you’ve got a man who’s pulling his weight, to crack open a whole other can of worms.Why Fair Play didn't work for ChloeVirginiaWhich, yeah.LisaThey’re rare, but it does happen, and even then, it’s not enough. We actually need more adults to make communities run than we get with the way nuclear families are set up. So it’s a really worthy thing to seek out aunties, and for aunties to seek out families, and it’s just a little bit scary. And you also have to be persistent, because when we offer, parents will usually say no. Like they don’t believe us. They think their kids are too wild and whatever. So parents have to persist and and families need to persist in being welcoming. VirginiaI would also add on the parent side, as much as I appreciated what you said before about aunties have to respect parents having the final call on stuff: It’s also an exercise in us having to loosen up a little. Not everything is going to go exactly the way you want it to go. The bedtime might look differently, meals might happen differently, there might be more or less screens, and we have to be less attached to those metrics of parenting and touchstones of our parenting day, and realize that the benefits of our kids getting to be with other people, way outweighs whether or not they eat three cookies or whatever it is. LisaYeah, the more that we live in community, the more we all learn to be flexible.VirginiaWhich is really the work of my life, learning to be more flexible. Work on flexibility with us! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Butter LisaI feel like this is pretty nerdy, but this is my true self. The Substack algorithm fed me a newsletter yesterday that I’m so excited about. It’s about The Babysitters Club, which was, like, my favorite thing. VirginiaOh you shared this. Oh, my God, I keep thinking  about it. LisaAnd then yesterday, I ran into my childhood best friend on the beach. I’m visiting my parents right now. We read a lot of Babysitters Club together. So I’m going to tell you this guy named Andrew Knott, who I had not heard of before, but the algorithm fed it to me, wrote a post called A Classic Children’s Book Series Has Me Questioning My Parenting, and he’s reading The Babysitter’s Club together with his daughter, who I think isa tween. So for those who aren’t familiar with The Babysitters Club, where have you been? But major cultural touch point, most important books of my childhood. And, you know, very like auntie-formative books as well. Yeah, he has this really great argument about how the babysitters in these books did like, 100% of the parenting for a lot of families.VirginiaThey absolutely did!LisaIt’s like, this weirdly dystopian situation where the parents are just like, I guess we’re gonna go to Atlantic City for a couple days. Have fun kids.VirginiaYes, yes, they took two 12 year olds along to babysit a family of eight children on a beach vacation and the parents are nowhere to be found. For sure, Mary Anne and Stacey can handle all of the Pike children roaming around the Jersey Shore. It’ll be no problem.LisaYeah, I don’t know. It made me laugh so hard. I feel like I’m always on the lookout for, like, good takes on my favorite books of my childhood. And I’ve got to say this one is an absolute winner. VirginiaAnd intersects so well with your work. My Butter is that I was thinking about the sort of evolving work of being more in community. And a really lovely win I had recently over the summer —and it also relates to what you were saying about scheduling rest— is that a friend of mine and I now have a standing Wednesday morning date, where we meet to walk in a local garden. We've been doing it all summer — every Wednesday, 10am, we walk in these gardens for an hour. And they are now about to close for the season and we're figuring out a replacement place to walk. But when I say walk—I mean, like, stroll, maybe stop and watch bees on flowers for 10 minutes. We’re just talking and strolling and we are not wearing athletic clothing. I call it a workout because it mentally gave me permission to put it on my calendar—that’s my Wednesday workout. But it is not cardio in any way. We’re just strolling around, chatting and and it’s just such a nice touch point. And I’m really proud of myself for making time for that connection with someone. And she’s a good friend, but prior to doing that, I could go three weeks without seeing her easily. And now we always see each other once a week, and we have invited other friends to join us. And the really funny thing, or really, thecool thing was one day, I went and did the walk with her, and then I had a doctor’s appointment. And historically, in the last year or two, my blood pressure has been inching up a little bit. It’s been a smidge high. So I was getting nervous for the blood pressure reading. And my blood pressure was normal to low! LisaOh my gosh. Gosh, because you’re looking at bees with your friend.VirginiaI texted her, I was like, I truly think we’re lowering my blood pressure. LisaYeah, it’s not weight loss. It’s looking at bees, on a schedule with your friends.VirginiaIt’s having a weekly appointment to watch the bees with your friend. Well, thank you, Lisa. This was so much fun. Such a great conversation. Tell folks where we can find you and how we can support your work. LisaYeah, thank you so much for having me. Virginia. I’m at The Auntie Bulletin, which is the auntie.substack.com and that’s the main thing I’m working on right now, so I hope people will come check it out. Thank you so much for having me.VirginiaIt’s really fantastic. And there’s just, if any part of this conversation has resonated, there’s like, so much more over on The Auntie Bulletin. So folks need to go check it out. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!Subscribe!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. Today, my conversation is with Laura Birek. You probably know Laura as co-host of The Big Fat Positive Podcast, but today she’s here to talk about her new book, co authored with Gia Gambaro Blount. It’s called Good to Go: A Fresh Take on Potty Training for Today's Intentional Parent.I'm years past potty training (thank God!!), but I honestly remember the pain of it better than childbirth. This is often a very fraught parenting milestone. And as with all things parenting: That means we encounter a ton of societal expectations and pressures around how to get potty training right, which makes it all even harder. If you, too, have been a victim of that viral three day potty training method, you'll want to hear this conversation. Laura has amazing advice about how to recover and do it differently. But even if you’re child-free or years out from this experience: What we’re really talking about today is how perfectionism and performative parenting can make life harder for parents (especially moms!) and really get in the way of kids’ body autonomy. And of course, promoting body autonomy is core to the work we do here on Burnt Toast.Today’s episode is free! But don't forget, if you were a Substack subscriber, you have until October 28 to claim your free access to our paid content. Check your email for your special gift link! And drop any questions or concerns here.PS. You can take 10 percent off Good to Go or any book we talk about on the podcast, if you order it from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, along with a copy of Fat Talk! (This also applies if you’ve previously bought Fat Talk from them. Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)Episode 215 TranscriptLauraI am the co-author of a new potty training book that just came out called Good to Go: A Fresh Take on Potty Training for Today's Intentional Parent. You can find it everywhere. And then I am also the co-host of a long running parenting and pregnancy podcast called The Big Fat Positive Podcast. I’ve been doing that for over seven years now. Every week for seven years! VirginiaYou are an OG podcaster! I love the podcast. I’ve been on the podcast. But today we are going to talk about Good to Go. Because you reached out to me and you said, "Potty training culture is such a thing. Can we talk about it?" And I am not going to share my own children’s stories. But I’m going to say, yeah, it is such a thing. And it really messes with our heads. And of course, my work is all about investigating cultural messages that mess with our heads, aka diet culture. So yes, let’s talk about potty training diet culture today. You kick off the book with the story of how you tried and failed to train your older kiddo, who you call Augie in the book. And the impetus was that you read the super popular three day potty training book that I think most of our listeners who have potty trained a child have encountered. Why did the idea that you could magically change potty train your child in three days go so wrong?LauraSo we kind of fell into that new parent trap of "This kid’s a genius!" He was hitting all his milestones early. He was such a talker. And I had been given that very, very popular three day potty training method that shall not be named. And I read it and really took it as gospel. And in the book, there were all these signs of readiness. And I was like, check, check, check, for Augie. It was stuff like, is he interested in the potty? And I thought, oh, this kid is ready, according to this book. And there were extenuating circumstances--namely, the pandemic. We were deep in the pandemic. We were also stuck indoors because there was a wildfire nearby, so we weren’t even able to go outside. That’s Southern California life for you. And I was in my second trimester with my second pregnancy. So all of these things came together to be like, well, you know, what the hell? Let’s give it a try. VirginiaWe’re trapped indoors anyways. LauraWe’re trapped indoors. Let’s spend three days naked and see what happens. And so the very first sentence of our book is: "I’m a failure at potty training." Which is a very weird way to start a potty training book.VirginiaBut so relatable. LauraOh, I hope it’s relatable! Because the thing is, we thought we were a success at the very beginning. Right after those three days, he was mostly making it to the potty. We were like, okay, we can take away diapers. But what we didn’t realize is that we had just entered into a state of constant vigilance with him. We were constantly reminding him to go, and we were always nervous about going anywhere and doing anything with him, like even just going to the park. We never got over the stress level, right? My mom would say, "He wasn’t potty trained. You were potty trained."VirginiaYou were trying to take him to the potty obsessively and monitor all the signs.LauraExactly, exactly. And the other thing was, I had this idea that having two kids in diapers was going to be hard. I don’t know where I got this idea! Everyone is like oh, you can’t have two kids in diapers.VirginiaIt feels like a really common cultural message. I’ve heard a lot of friends say that, who have kids close in age. "Oh we have got to get her out of diapers before the next one comes!" LauraActually having two kids in diapers is way more convenient than one who’s in a very early stage of potty training and a newborn! That was our first mistake. But we just continued to deal with this stress around going places. And at some point, I ended up having the baby. Augie was still out of diapers, but he was having accidents. In our book, we call them misses, but this author called them accidents, so we’ll stick with accidents. It’s the more familiar term. And he was having accidents all the time, and I was really stressed out about it. Then I take my new baby, we call him Sebastian, to a local place called the Family Room, which is where I did mommy and me classes, and then toddler and me classes with my now co-author, Gia Gambaro Blount. I brought him for a lactation support group. But Gia happened to be there, and I descended upon Gia. I was like, "Gia, I need your help. Augie is having all these problems with potty training. I don’t know what to do." And she looked at me, and said, "Can I ask you something? When you decided to potty train him, did you tell him it was going to happen?" And I was like, "No." Because the book specifically tells you you’re not supposed to do that. VirginiaYou just spring it on them.LauraThe book tells you, do not even have the little potties out, because it will confuse their little brains. And I didn’t know anything about potty training at the time, so I was like, "Sure, that sounds legit. Whatever." So Gia was like, "You need to go back and ask him how he’s feeling about this." So I go back and I look Augie in the eyes. I’m like, "Hey baby. I know we’ve been having a lot of accidents. Do you think you want to go back to diapers for a little bit?" And he was like, "Yes!" Instantly. "Yes, yes, yes, I want to go back to diapers!" And I was shocked by that, because I thought he was going to be like, "No, I’m a big boy!" VirginiaHe was like, no, I’m really not ready for that. LauraAnd so we went back to diapers, which, by the way, in the 3 day method is a big no no. Like, huge regression. And there was also this strict thing about having to potty train between 18 and 30 months, and if you don’t do it between those times, you’ve ruined them forever. At least, that’s that’s the takeaway I had.VirginiaAnd if you could do it beforehand, even better.LauraYes! So I was really worried about all that. But the minute we put him back in diapers, the stress went away. And you know, TL/DR, he is not ruined forever. We ended up actually potty training him using Gia’s help just after he turned three. VirginiaEverything in your story is so deeply relatable. Because I think those first years of parenting are such chaos. And this is certainly not all moms... but there’s a certain kind of mom who is vulnerable to this message of "control as much of it as you can." Have the feeding schedules, track the ins and outs when they’re newborns. There is a need to have a lot of information and structure around what is otherwise just this sea of "when will we ever sleep again? When will anything happen?" That makes us really vulnerable to messages like "You want to achieve this milestone by a certain age." Or "You want to achieve this milestone before you have another baby." There is this idea that we somehow get a gold star if we get it done at a certain point. And now that I have kids who are way, way older, and I’m just like, "I don’t even remember when it all happened." You don’t look at a bunch of seventh graders, and think, "Well, I can tell  you didn’t potty train till 3.5." LauraAnd I think that I am one of those moms who is totally susceptible to that. We had a sleep schedule with my first. And I think part of it is that I had my kids later in life, I already had a career. And when you have kids, any control you have over your days, over your schedule, over your life, just flies out the window. So I think I was grasping at anything that would give me a sense of control in my life. And rightfully so! So I’m not saying that those things don’t help people —I actually do think some of the sleep schedule stuff helped us. Or we got lucky, and that just happened to align with my kid's personality.VirginiaYou had a baby who was like, "Yes, fine, we’ll do a schedule."LauraExactly. I don’t know. There’s no way to know, but it did give me a sense of control. The trap with that is, say you have a good experience, like I did with sleep training , and then you go to potty training and it’s not as successful. Suddenly you think it’s some kind of referendum on your own parenting. VirginiaYes! LauraHaving a second kid is really helpful — or third or fourth, I imagine, even more— but having more than one kid has really helped me realize that so much of parenting is luck of the draw with your kid’s personality and temperament and all that stuff. But with your first, it can feel like such pressure and such responsibility for you to be the person who figures it all out. When it turns out that a lot of things are just not figure out-able, or need time or a different approach, or you need to be flexible.VirginiaSocial media has not helped in all of this, for sure. I mean, not that everybody documents their kids potty training on social media, but it’s of a piece with needing to celebrate milestones in this public way, I think.LauraHopefully one of the gifts that we give with our book is this concept that potty training is not a light switch. It’s not a binary. You’re not either potty trained or not in some clear crossing the finish line manner. Instead, we describe it as a continuum in terms of how much parental involvement is required. So at the very, very beginning, those first days, weeks, even months, you’re in the highly involved phase, where you are doing a lot of reminding and you’re doing a lot of cleaning up of pee on floor. You’re doing a lot of thinking about it. Then you go into the occasionally involved phase, which is fewer accidents, they know they need to go, but you still have to wipe their butts until kindergarten, at least usually. That’s something that the other books don’t really tell you. They frame it as, "oh, you’re done after three days." But these kids need help! There are just some physiological reasons why little kids have trouble wiping their own butts. Their heads are huge! Their proportions are all off. Some kids physically cannot reach their butts. But no one’s telling you that. So our goal in the book is to try to shorten the highly involved phase so that you’re in the occasionally involved phase quicker, and then finally you'll get to the point where you’re rarely involved. We say that there’s some day in the future where you won’t know the last time your kid went to the bathroom. But that’s years away. I mean, in my house, it’s still getting announced! So if you can think of it as the spectrum of where you’re in this process, then you can be a little bit less like, oh, okay, so and so just posted "oh, my two year old potty trained in one weekend." You can know in your head: Okay, yeah, that just means they’re not wearing diapers on a daily basis, right? But caregivers are still involved.VirginiaYeah, it doesn’t mean the two year old is like, "Okay, mom, I’ll be back in a minute!"LauraPeople will come out of the woodwork and be like, "My two year old self potty trained, they won’t let me be involved. They do everything!" And it’s like, I am so happy for you. But that is not the majority of kids and we need to just understand that’s not an expectation we should have.VirginiaI also appreciate understanding the stages more, and the fact that you and Gia really emphasized that this means you can decide readiness, not just based on your kid. So: Are they achieving these certain milestones? Are they checking these boxes? But also: Consider yourself. Are you, the parent, ready? Maybe when you’re about to have a newborn, you don’t want to be in the highly involved potty training phase. If you don’t think you can get all the way to "less involved" by the time the baby comes, maybe put this on hold for a while. And that just gives us so much more permission to center our own needs in the process. And to actually have needs, which is another thing the three day discourse really leaves out. The idea that you as the parent would have any other things going on other than potty training.LauraMost of the 3 day experts say you cannot leave the house for three days. Okay, that’s great for a stay at home parent who has no other kids. But what happens when you have an older kid that needs to go to soccer practice? What happens if you have a prescription you need to pick up from the pharmacy?VirginiaOr you’re a single parent.LauraOr a single parent doing it all. Exactly.We were in a pandemic, in a wildfire, and that’s why I was like, okay, we can stay home for three days. There has been no other time in our lives we’ve been able to stay inside for three days. Those unrealistic expectations really set you up for failure. And then on top of that, the message in all these other methods is, "If your child is still having issues after the three days, you must have done something wrong. You must have not followed my method perfectly."That’s with so much of parenting, right? But no, every kid is going to react differently and have a different timeline. And also, sometimes prescriptions need to be picked up at the pharmacy. VirginiaMy listeners frequently get a little annoyed when I say everything is a diet. But: A system that tells you that if it didn’t work, it’s because you didn’t do it right is 100 percent classic diet culture. It’s classic like, well, if only you’d followed it, if only you’d have better discipline... as opposed to: This just isn’t a match for what you’re trying to do right now. This isn’t the way for you. Laura And it’s trying to police this thing that everyone has to do, too. I think that’s just such an interesting analog to diet culture as well. We all have to eat. I know you’ve written about this, right? Even the most restrictive diet is going to have to provide some food, because you will die. And we all have to eliminate our waste and, save children with medical issues that may prevent them from potty training, almost all of us are going to end up having to learn to use a toilet at some point. It’s this thing we all have to do. And yet, we’re being told there’s this one right way to do it. But there are also at least five different people saying their way is the one right way. What gets more diet-y than that?VirginiaAnother thing I really appreciated is what Gia emphasizes in terms of assessing your child’s readiness. Because it's not just the cognitive signs, like, do they have the language? Are they looking at the potty and interested or following you into the bathroom? She also talks about this concept of interoception, which is something that comes up a lot when we talk about helping kids be intuitive eaters. So again, there are these parallels between food and potty stuff. Can you explain how understanding where a child is with their interoception development can help you prepare for a more intuitive approach to potty training?LauraWe talk about the three realms of readiness: There are the cognitive signs, the social-emotional signs and the physical signs. But we further split those up into two categories. Some of these things are teachable signs, and then there are some unteachable things that are just developmental. A really good example of that is in the cognitive signs of readiness. An unteachable sign is whether your child is curious about you going to the potty, right? That is often listed as a sign of readiness, like, oh, your child wants to know what you’re doing. Why are you sitting on the potty? Wants to come be with you in the bathroom. You can’t teach that level of interest, right? And if you tried it would be weird. And interoception is another unteachable sign. There’s nothing we can do to force your child to have more awareness of what’s going on in their body. That’s a thing we’re kind of born with that is on another spectrum. Some people are incredibly sensitive. I’m a person who’s been accused of being a hypochondriac, and I think part of that is I have heightened interoception. I feel every ache and pain. I always felt when I ovulated, for example. I also heard once that only some people can tell when their heart’s beating. That’s just a sign that some people have a more sensitive sense of interoception versus others, right? We can’t teach it. It’s just the way your kid is. What we can teach is supporting their interpretation of their interoception. An example that’s not potty training related is if your child gets goosebumps, you can help them identify: Do you have goosebumps because you’re feeling cold, or do you have goosebumps because you’re scared? Goosebumps have a feeling associated with them, and you can’t teach them how to feel that. But what you can do is try to connect language to the feeling. And that’s hard. That is the hard work of potty training, honestly. And so Gia and I identified something we called the universal potty sequence, just to keep it short in our brain, which is, when we are as adults, go to the bathroom. We say we’re going to the bathroom. We think of it as one step, but in reality, it’s up to nine steps. We identified nine steps. But you know, it’s a bunch of different steps that the kids have to learn. It’s all new for them, right? So the first step is feeling. The sensation is that interoception, every step after that is kind of mechanical, right? Like you navigate to the potty, then you pull down your pants, then you sit on the potty, then you eliminate, then you flush, blah, blah, right? So we have this thing we call the rehearsal period. That’s about two weeks ish--again, everything is flexible--before you actually plan to take away diapers, where you teach everything on the universal potty sequence, all those steps, all those new things, all those new mechanics for them. Except step one: Feel the sensation. That one we are leaving to when you take away diapers. The point is when kids are thrown into "we’re taking away diapers. We’re taking away this thing that you’ve worn your entire life!" this way, the only thing they have to learn is how to connect the sensation to the need to go. Everything else isn’t brand new, so the other eight steps aren't so overwhelming. All we’re focusing on is interoception, and so that’s what we’re trying to really center in our method to help our kids connect the dots. And that’s why we also don’t forbid prompting. Some kids are not going to have a strong sensation, and you’re going to need to sometimes, in retrospect, be like, "hmm, there’s pee on the floor now, you you had a miss." And we say miss, because we don’t want there to be shame involved, right? We don’t want to say, oh, it’s an accident. It’s not really an accident. They just didn’t get to the potty in time, right? or they didn’t even think to try to go. So we say, "Oh, you had a miss. Do you remember what it felt like before it came out? Next time we feel that feeling, let’s see if we can catch it before we go." So we’re working on that. And some kids need that extra support. Honestly, my six year old still likes to get hyper focused, and so he does need to get prompted to this day. And no one would say, oh, that six year old’s not potty trained. He’s definitely potty trained at school. He’s fine, but sometimes we just need to help him connect. I mean, how many adults do you know who wait till the last second go to the bathroom?VirginiaThat’s me, every work day. What I love about this is how you’re really centering kids’ body autonomy in this process. And in way that is so counter to how I’ve seen body training explained before. This feels like such a huge shift. I mean, I remember when I was doing it with my own kids, feeling like, "the way I’m doing this doesn’t feel aligned with the way I’m thinking about feeding them," for example. When I’m feeding kids, I’m really focused on the power of their ability to say no to a food they don’t like, and why that’s important. And the importance of not pushing them past their fullness cues and helping them notice hunger cues. Their body autonomy is the center of it. And potty training is this thing where because we’re so focused on getting it done, because we’ve got all this pressure on it, it’s like... suddenly they don’t have body autonomy in the process at all. And that feels really troubling.LauraIt does. I mean, I came to that same revelation. It was part of what allowed me to feel okay with putting Augie back in diapers, VirginiaYeah, because you gave him his power back. LauraExactly and I realized this exact same thing you said. I am so dedicated to respectful parenting. I’m a Virginia Sole-Smith fan girl! Like I read all your books, and I'm offering foods without judgment, and all of that stuff. And yet, in this one realm, I fell into the trap of not just not centering his body autonomy, I like full on ignored it. I mean, it sounds awful, but I really did violate his own body autonomy. I forced him to do things he wasn’t ready for. And I do feel bad about it to this day. And it’s not an inconsequential thing, right? Like, people say, No one’s going to college still, still using a diaper. Everyone eventually learns to potty. And it’s true. But there is a lot of shame around using the bathroom. There was some Vice article that just came out, which said, like, 83 percent of Gen Zers have bathroom anxiety. And a bunch of them want to quit because of it. They don’t want to have a job because they’re afraid of using the bathroom. VirginiaI’m an old millennial, but I have some women’s magazine bathroom trauma. I understand what they’re saying. It’s a stressful place. LauraAnd I’m not saying I enjoy pooping in a public bathroom either! But there are consequences, and not just about anxiety. There are actual physical consequences to involving shame in the potty training process. There's encopresis, which is a specific type of constipation and a really big problem that is so hard to solve. I’ve heard from so many parents whose children have it. It's a form of chronic constipation, and what happens is you’re so constipated that liquid poop escapes around the sides of the impacted stool, and kids can’t tell anymore that they have to poop because their colon is so enlarged. And this is a much more common problem than people realize, and it’s really hard to solve once it’s started. It's something you really want to get ahead of. And that’s the other reason we say if your child is refusing to poop in the potty, give them a diaper. You need to get that poop out one way or another, and it’s not a judgment on whether you’ve been able to potty train them or not. We’re looking at the long game here. We’re trying to create a child who doesn’t have long term problems that require a ton of medical intervention. What’s worse, having to go to a GI doctor for the next five years or just giving them a diaper to poop in at the end of the day?VirginiaAnd giving them another month or six months in diapers, and then you try again. LauraIt goes back to the perfectionism, though. Like, when you put it that way, you’re like, yeah, of course, I’ll give them a diaper. But if you’ve been told no, they’re going to be confused. It’s failure. That's harder. It's not failure. These kids are way smarter than most people give them credit for, like, they will know the difference. They’re not going to be confused about what’s going on.VirginiaI think another piece of this body autonomy conversation is night training. I really love that Gia does not endorse night training. I mean, I have heard of parents setting alarms to wake toddlers up to pee at 11pm so that they could say they were night trained. Just tell us why this is so unnecessary.LauraNight training is absolutely unnecessary. We did a ton of research to make sure we were right. Night training is just not effective. It’s really a one hundred percent developmental shift that happens in your child’s brain and their body. When they are ready, they will be night trained. And there’s nothing you can do to force it. One in 6 kids at age six still wet the bed at night. At age seven, that goes down to one in 10. But that’s still a lot of kids! One in 10 kids in your second grade class are still wetting the bed at night. And that’s fine and developmentally normal. And so if we know that, if we can normalize that, it may lessen the pressure for night training. There’s a scientific term for waking them at night to sit them on the potty. They call it lifting. And the research shows that lifting has no measurable outcomes like lifting. People who practice lifting had no better results than people who just let their kids sleep. And I would imagine—this is just my hypothesis—that those parents are crabby because they have to wake up in the middle of the night to do it. And their kids are also probably crabby for having gotten woken up, even if they’re half awake, right? So we are firmly in the belief that you don’t have to do night training. That said, we tell you when to start looking for signs that it's time to take away night time diapers and how to do it. And also what to do when your kid is getting up to pee in the middle of the night, and that becomes a problem. So if your child is waking up in the middle of the night every night to go pee — we get into how to address that, what the root causes might be, and how to how to deal with that when the time comes. But we say do not do night training at the same time as daytime training. Your kids will likely just night train themselves during or after the process. One in 10 will take past age seven.VirginiaThe last thing I want to hit on is the stuff piece of potty training. There’s a lot marketed to us, a lot of gear, different types of potties, all of that. And I would love to hear your take on what is actually useful and what is just marketing, and you can probably skip. LauraLike anything parenting-related, mom-related specifically, there are going to be people trying to sell you a bunch of stuff. But I mean, basically you need a pot to piss in, right? Like, that is the bare bones of what you need. A lot of people ask us about the floor potties: Do I really need a floor potty? A lot of people find them kind of gross, unsightly. I get it. You don’t want to have a little toilet in your living room. Yeah, I didn’t either. But if you buy nothing else, we recommend having a floor potty. And you don't have to buy them — there are going to be 20 parents in your neighborhood who are desperate to get these out of their basements! You can get over the fact that it was used by another kid, just get some Clorox. You know, you’re fine. You don’t have to spend actual money on any of this stuff, because it is a thing that you only need for a narrow window of time. So we recommend, at the bare minimum, having a floor potty for this reason: There are three types of awareness when it comes to your internal body awareness. There’s sensation awareness, which is, oh, I have to go. The action awareness is: Is it pee or poop? And then there’s urgency awareness, which is like, the real key to all of this. Urgency awareness is how much lead time you have between noticing the feeling and getting to a toilet. And when you are first potty training, in the first days and weeks, that urgency awareness window is seconds. We’re talking like five seconds between when a kid recognizes and when they go. Because of that, we want to give them as many opportunities to have a win as possible, right? Like, you don’t want to clean up pee off your floor, and you want your kid to feel successful, right? The more chances they have to successfully make it to the potty, the better everyone’s going to feel, and the like, quicker the process is going to go. And sometimes the difference between a win and a miss is the time it takes to walk from the living room to the bathroom.In addition, there are a lot of things about the big potty that scare kids or just are really, really challenging for kids. It’s high up, so you have to have a step stool or something. Usually you have to have some kind of insert for the seat. So like, if you’re like, oh, I don’t want to buy a floor potty, you’re still having to buy a step stool and a seat insert. So that’s two things versus the one floor potty. And kids can be scared of the balancing being high up. They can be scared of the plopping, like the poop falling all the way into the bowl. We have some techniques to help them get over that, but there are just more barriers to entry for most kids to use the adult potty at the get-go. Obviously, you can work towards that. And I always hear from people like, well, my kid wouldn’t even go in the small potty. It’s like, okay, there you go. Now, you know. All the more reason to get one from some other parent. If you have a really big house, two floor potties could be helpful so you don’t have to be carrying them around everywhere you go. I mean the amount of time I’ve spent in my life carrying around a little floor potty full of pee. It’s just so gross. It’s such a glamorous life we live as parents. And then the only other thing that I’d say is really a good buy if you're in the car a lot, is a travel potty.VirginiaOne hundred percent. LauraThere are so many great ones now. I have the Oxo one, it like, folds up into this flat little package. And you can either pop the legs vertical, so that you put a little plastic bag in that has a little absorbent pad so that you can sit on the potty in the backseat of the car or the trunk or whatever. But it also folds out, so it can be a little seat to use in public bathrooms. And that’s honestly really great. Public bathrooms are a whole other topic that we actually talk a lot about in the book. But one major thing is that their butts are too small. They just so you either have to hold them, and it’s a whole thing, or you can have this travel potty with you, which gives them a seat that’s their size and makes it more accessible. ButterVirginiaWell, this was fantastic. Speaking of stuff, though, it does not have to be stuff. Laura, do you want to give us some Butter today?LauraI do. Okay, so I went straight from saying you don’t need to buy things for potty training, and then I’m going to tell you about this thing that I think you should buy for potty training. But I have to tell you about this because I have been giving these out to my friends left and right. Anytime I tell someone about it, they they’re like their mind is blown. They’ve never heard of it before, and so I feel like I have to share it, because it’s something that’s been so helpful for us, and that is a disposable travel urinal. Have you ever heard of these? VirginiaI do not have children with penises, so no.LauraWell, guess what? It works for children with vulvas, too. VirginiaWow. Okay!LauraSo it’s this universal spout. It’s basically this sort of oval shaped spout that, if you have a penis, you point this the top part up, and if you have a vulva, you point it down, just so it catches the pee. And it’s just a plastic bag, kind of like an emesis bag, but the difference is there’s a little zip lock top, so you can seal it off, and there’s like a gel pad at the bottom that’s dry when you get it, but it absorbs liquid, kind of like what’s inside of a diaper, right? And you can it folds up into this tiny little package that you can have in your purse. It’s saved us so many times when you are places where you just can’t get to a bathroom quickly, and they really have to pee. Because, I don’t know about your kids, but no matter how many times I tell them, like we’re leaving the park, let’s go to the bathroom. Yeah, no, I don’t have to go. And then five minutes into the drive home, I have to pee. I have to pee.And while I do have two children with penises, I don’t usually like to have them pee on random people’s yards, right? So really helps to be able to have this thing in the car. I will tell you the most clutch moment, which hopefully doesn’t get me canceled, which is we were in line. My six year old and I were in line for the Guardians of the Galaxy breakout ride at Disney California Adventure. And it was an hour long line. And I was shocked that he was focused and able to stay in that line the whole time. But we were almost to the boarding area, and he’s like, Mommy I have to pee and it was just me and him. I couldn’t send him with his dad or anything. And this line is like a maze, you know how Disney does it’s like they create this whole experience. But I didn’t know how to get out in any quick way, even if they would have led us back in the line, I didn’t know how to get out. And it was dark in there, all moody, and so it was scary. And I was like, okay, baby, just turn around. So I got him face away from the crowd, and he peed in the bag, and there was a trash can right there. And it saved us! so I highly recommend it. I have one in my purse at all times, just in case. I have yet to use it for myself, but it is apparently used by adults. Okay, yeah, yeah, absolutely so. And they, I don’t have a brand recommendation. There’s like 500 different brands, so just look up disposable urinal bags. VirginiaWell, my Butter is not something you can pee in, but It is body adjacent in thinking about this episode, and thinking back to earlier parenting years, because, as I said, I’m like, pretty well out of the stage. Now, I was remembering how much one of our favorite picture books at that time was Bodies Are Cool by Tyler Feder. LauraI love that book. VirginiaIt’s incredible. It should be in every parent’s library. It’s a go-to baby shower gift for me forever, because it’s just an amazing celebration of body diversity, which is all of Tyler’s work. So that’s a Butter I’ve given before, but just to re-up. But recently, a friend of mine gave me a print of Tyler’s of this beautiful, fat mermaid. I’ll put a photo of it in the show notes. And I actually hung it up by my bathroom, because our bathroom is near where our pool is. So now we have a lot of middle school girls changing into swimsuits all the time. And I am slowly making this bathroom my body celebration shrine. So I have three Tyler illustrations in that space. And I’m just adding to this little collection of body positive art so that when teenage girls are in there changing into swimsuits and having the feelings they can look around and be like, Oh, right. Bodies are cool. So, another way to think about your bathroom as a place to affirm that body autonomy matters. LauraYeah, it really does. VirginiaWell, this was a delight. Laura, thank you so much for joining us. Tell folks where we can follow you, how we can support your work.LauraYes. So as I said many times, my book Good to Go: A Fresh Take on Potty Training for Today's Intentional Parent is out in the US and Canada, wherever you buy your books. There’s also an e-book version you can find. We are hoping to get an audiobook going soon. And we also have a website that you can find us at and then listen to my podcast. We have great conversations all the time. We had Virginia on for two episodes when Fat Talk came out and one of our favorite episodes ever. And we are Big Fat Positive a pregnancy and parenting journey.VirginiaAmazing. Thank you so much for being here. LauraThanks for having me. I love talking to you.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, here with our first-ever Patreon podcast episode! We're going to chat about: ⭐️ How we're feeling about the BIG MOVE. ⭐️ How to think about clothes after a significant size change. What even IS your style now?! ⭐️Figuring out fall uniforms! ⭐️ Diet culture in disaster prep. ⭐️ The one thing we wish straight-sized style bloggers would do differently. And so much more! To hear the full conversation, you'll need to be a paid subscriber. Reminder: Substack subscribers, make sure to redeem your gift to read this newsletter for FREE!🧈 🧈 🧈 Check your email for your gift link.🧈 🧈 🧈As we move from Substack to Patreon, there are just a few quick (but important!) steps you’ll need to take to keep accessing the member-only podcast episodes on your favorite podcast app.👉 Follow the detailed instructions below to stay connected!This episode contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is a great way to support Burnt Toast!Episode 214 TranscriptCorinne This is the episode you’ve been waiting for! We’re going to reveal our big news.VirginiaBurnt Toast and Big Undies have moved to Patreon! CorinneWe’re going to get into the how and the why, and then we’re going to answer some pretty juicy listener questions.VirginiaThis is very exciting. It's our first week over on Patreon. We’re still, to be honest, at the time of this recording, figuring out how to use Patreon? I would say?CorinneAbsolutely.VirginiaWe're still learning our way around, which I’m sure is the experience that many listeners are also having. Unless you were already a longtime Patreon user, which I think a lot of you were. I mean, I think a lot of us use Patreon. But it’s all new. It’s different. How are you feeling, Corinne?CorinneI’m excited! Definitely still getting to know Patreon as a platform, but it feels refreshing to be somewhere new. It has a very different vibe over here, I think. And I think a lot of people kind of had beef with Substack for various reasons. And so I’m excited we're here. VirginiaIt feels like it was time. Burnt Toast hasd been on Substack for four years. Big Undies is newer, but you have been working in the Substack space for about as long as I have. And there were just a lot of ways that platform had stopped working for us. And a lot of decisions that company had made that were not feeling great. It’s something that listeners have asked for for a long time. People are like, "When are you leaving Substack? We don’t like the Nazis!" And we don’t like the Nazis either. But it was a really big question of how to move these businesses, how to do it without us losing big financially, and in terms of both of these brands till having our communities. We didn’t want to leave and have nobody follow us.CorinneAlso, I think there’s an argument to be made that letting Substack turn into a Nazi-only platform is not useful.VirginiaFor sure, that has been my response for a long time, when folks asked. If we all leave, then only the Nazis remain. And that is a real concern. I think that’s what we saw happen to Twitter, for sure. So many people left, and it is just a cesspool. Is Substack going to become a cesspool? I have no idea. I hope not. I also don’t want to be overly rosy-eyed. I’m sure there are Nazis lurking somewhere on Patreon. I’m hopeful this company is going to do a better job of responding to that situation than Substack did. But I have worked for media corporations my entire career. There are Nazis at all of them. That's just the disgusting reality of making media. It is what it is. But I am hopeful. I think Patreon really understands that that has been a huge frustration of a lot of us on Substack, and I’m hopeful that it’s going to be better here. And not to totally pivot from Nazis to technology, but—there are a lot of great features here at Patreon that we’re really excited about! One of the biggest ones for me is that you can now pay monthly for an Extra Butter subscription after Substack only ever letting me price it annually. That might be very inside baseball to a lot of you, but so many people have emailed and been like, "I would love to do Extra Butter. Can I pay monthly instead of annually?" And I always had to say no, and now I can say yes! CorinneI think the Patreon tier system is very appealing. And I also think there is a nice community element to Patreon that did exist on Substack as well, but I think also it was kind of like a wider Substack community, and on Patreon, it feels a little more unique.VirginiaThis is our community. We are our own ecosystem, which is pretty cool. And I also just want to briefly say on the tiered thing: One piece of feedback that came up a few times in the reader survey–it was not the main throughline, but more than a few people said it—was "we don’t like tiered payment systems. It doesn’t feel egalitarian." What are your thoughts on that? Because I’ll be honest, I hadn’t really thought about it, and then I was like, "Am I replicating a class structure?" I see that critique. People wanted one price for all of the content. And I also think my response is, if I’m going to do one price for all of the content, then that one price can’t be as accessible as I want it to be.CorinneWe do rely on listener support to do this work. I also think sometimes there are people who want one email a week, but not two. VirginiaSO it’s nice to offer different options. On the pricing thing, we had raised the price of Burnt Toast over on Substack up to $7 a month or $70 for a year of the basic subscription. And that was in part because we couldn’t really do as much with Extra Butter as we wanted with their technology limitations. Now that we’re over on Patreon, a regular paid subscription is only going to be $5 a month, and Extra Butter is $10 a month. So I like that now we have a much more accessible tier, and then there’s the higher tier for folks who do want to support more or want to get more content. I hope it doesn’t feel so much like a class system and more like I’m trying to give you options. That’s really how I’m thinking of it. CorinneYeah, that makes sense. VirginiaAnd of course, I’m always going to offer comp subscriptions, no questions asked. If someone just drops me an email and says they need it, I’m always happy to do that. Not as many people take me up on it as you would think. Nobody’s taking advantage of it. People always still feel like they need to explain. You don’t need to explain. I trust that you would support the work if you could. You don’t need to let me know about your student loans or your husband losing his job or whatever. I’m happy to give the comp. So that option still exists as well, and there will still be a lot for the free list too, but not these Extra Butter episodes. These are just for the Extra Butter folks!CorinneThis is where the real juice is.VirginiaAnd now we made it a class system. CorinneOh, sorry. The class system is juiciest, juicy, and no juice. Dry toast.VirginiaOh, man, thinking of the names has been the hardest thing as of this recording. I’m pretty sure the regular tier is now called Just Toast. I think that’s where we’ve landed. It’s Just Toast and Extra Butter. Y’all did make some great suggestions. There was a vocal minority support for Salty Butter. Mostly me, I was outvoted. Some people wanted dry toast, butter, extra butter. And I was like, "I think now we’re too in the weeds of ordering toast?" So, yes, Just Toast and Extra Butter is what we’re doing. CorinneI love that. VirginiaAnything else we should talk about with Patreon that people are likely to be struggling with in this first week? I do realize it’s annoying that if you’re not already a Patreon user, you’re going to have to come over from Subtack. You’re going to have to click the link in your email, come over, re-enter your credit card. We are making sure if you had an annual subscription on Substack, you get credit for all of the months you already paid for. But I’m sure there’s going to be some confusion about that. Bu remember: If you were paying $7 a month on Substack, you will now be paying $5 a month when you rejoin on Patreon. So good news there!CorinneAll right, let me read the first question. I would love your thoughts on building a new wardrobe after a significant size change. Not just seasonal flux situation, but the kind of change where literally none of your clothes fit anymore. Yes, there’s the shopping part, but I’m more interested in your perspective on the mental components in terms of both body change and style change, because what even is your style if you can’t shop at a lot of the same stores or sections of the store? How do you do this in an anti-diet way that doesn’t suck you into the restrictive world of flattering capsule wardrobes, especially when all the pants are bad, and going out tops, which may be long and flowy, are back.VirginiaGoing out tops are back?! I have not been leaving the house. That is not news I have heard. It doesn’t have to be back for you, is what I’ll say. What are your first thoughts on this question?CorinneWell, I have a lot of compassion. I feel like it sucks. It sucks! I do think it’s a mental hurdle to not only be dealing with changes in your own body, but also your accessibility to clothes.VirginiaIt is very jarring. And I hear what this person is saying about, how do I even know what my style is anymore? How do I have style now that I can’t shop in the same stores? I think that’s a real process that people go through, where you just suddenly feel like, "I don’t know what I like because what I used to like isn’t available anymore." So why would you know? It’s like when you go to a new country and eat a cuisine you’re not familiar with. You don’t know what you like because you didn’t grow up eating that food. And then you might discover you love lots of things. But you’re not like, oh, I have a go to menu order here. You’re learning it all. It’s not always as joyful as that. It’s okay to just be angry that that’s the reality. The industry should be better, and you should be able to still wear the same kinds of things you love, like just in your new size, and it shouldn’t be such a mind fuck. CorinneOne hundred percent.VirginiaThat said, I think there can be opportunities to reframe a little bit, where you can start to find something about your new shape that you appreciate and enjoy dressing that you didn’t highlight in your previous shape. Does that make sense? CorinneYes.VirginiaLike just to be extremely heteronormative and reductive about it: I have bigger boobs as a fat person than I did as a thin person, and I like dressing for my boobs more. That’s not going to be everybody’s experience. But I think I often look better in things than I did when I was a B cup? No offense, B cups. But I look cuter in some stuff now that I have boobs.CorinneThat’s awesome, I love that for you.VirginiaI understand that’s not a universal experience. A lot of people have really complicated feelings about having big boobs.CorinneI think another thing you could lean into is how stuff feels. If you’re trying on clothes or whatever, like, maybe do it without a mirror and be like, is this comfortable? Do I Like this color?VirginiaI think trying things on first without a mirror is always such a good way to try on clothes. because if it is not physically comfortable, it doesn’t matter how cute you look in it. So starting with that first and centering your experience of the clothes, not some external gaze’s experience of you in the clothes.CorinneI also feel like when you’re going through something like this, it can be a good time to experiment. I know that’s not always the most fun thing, but I was thinking about Nuuly or like, do you have a friend who’s a similar size who you could try on some of their clothes? Or maybe they’re getting rid of stuff and would give you stuff.VirginiaThis was kind of where I was going with "is there an aspect of your new shape that you enjoy." There can be styles that you wouldn’t have considered before that really do work on the body you have now. It’s fun to experiment and figure out what those are. And it might mean wearing stuff that you feel like, oh no, I never would have liked that. Or that’s not me at all. And a lot of it, you’ll still be like, that’s not me. I don’t like that. But you’ll find one or two things that really do work. Switching over into plus sizes, I started to play with proportions really differently in clothes.CorinneThat’s cool. VirginiaAnd I think one aspect of that was  getting more comfortable with the fact that I was plus size and that I was going to look bigger no matter what I did. I had to make peace with the fact that I can no longer trick people into viewing my body as thin, which I think if you’re midsize or upper straight sizes, is a whole Jedi mind trick we teach ourselves to do. You’re like, "I’m a 12, but I can pass for an eight." Or whatever. When I wore clothes as a straight size person, I was always looking for the slim cut, the skinny, to minimize, because I was trying so hard to stay in that box. And once that box is no longer available, it’s actually kind of liberating, because you’re like, "That’s just not even what we’re trying to do anymore." So I can now love wearing a wide-legged pant. Of course, we’ve talked on the podcast. This is not an instant thing. This is years of working at this. And those internalized things still come up. But it’s kind of freeing to think "If looking skinny is not the goal anymore, that goal is off the table, then what do I want to look like and what’s fun to explore?"CorinneYeah, I think that’s really good advice. Think about how you want to feel in your clothes, versus how you can look smaller.VirginiaAnd don’t you feel like for you–well, I don’t, I don’t know your timeline on this, so if I’m getting this wrong, just tell me. But I feel like your interest in exploring gender fluidity and stuff with fashion has come along with size changes?CorinneHmm, yeah, that’s a interesting thought. Sometimes I also relate it to getting older. I haven’t fully fleshed that out. But I think something about getting older also made me feel like, oh, I don’t need to be feminine to be hot or whatever.VirginiaYeah, definitely not. It’s another way it can open things up. Like, do you want to explore different gender expressions? Being older, you get to give fewer fucks, because no one’s going to confuse you for at 25 year olds. It’s, in some ways, such a relief not, it is not to try to be a hot 25 year old anymore.CorinneWhat we’re saying is let yourself feel whatever you’re feeling. It’s okay to be sad and angry. Let yourself feel free.VirginiaAnd if it’s caftan season or big pants season or whatever it is, you don’t need to wear a going out top. We’re not trying to be a hot 25 year old. That girl has has her whole life ahead of her, and she’s on a different journey. All right. I’ll read the next one. I just left my job to go to grad school full time, and I’m looking for ideas for making sitting at my desk in my home office for many hours a day, more appealing. What do the two of you consider essential for a work from home setup, from technology to lighting to snacks? I love this question.CorinneThis is such a good question. And I feel like this is something I am still very much working on.VirginiaWell, especially right now, because you’re not in your home office setup.CorinneBut even in my home home office! I feel like a comfortable chair is essential.VirginiaI’m about to break up with my chair. I’ve added things to it, like my physical therapist recommended a certain kind of cushion, and I’m just like, I think I’m trying to make a West Elm chair that’s never going to be the right chair for me work. It just sucks that the comfortable chairs are all real ugly.CorinneYes, and they’re like, $1,000.VirginiaThey’re $1,000 of ugliness. It’s not great. So that’s one. Since I don't have a comfortable chair, I would also say having reasons to get up every now and then is really helpful. I’m not of the school that sitting is killing us all. That’s not what I’m here to say. But if you have the ability, from your lower back’s perspective, getting up or just changing where you work throughout the day can be useful.CorinneI don’t even have a great setup for this at my house, but I feel like the ability to work one place and then move and work somewhere else can be really nice just for the brain. Sometimes you need a shift in perspective. I also think having a light for if you have to do Zoom or video calls can be helpful. VirginiaIt’s so annoying, but true. Investing in good lighting. I’d love to know other recs that people have, if they have one they love. I have worked from home and had a home office set up since 2005. So that’s 20 years working from home. And I was just thinking about this, my first home office, which I set up in basically a fugue state because I’d been laid off from my magazine job at the age of 25 and was like, okay, I’m going to be a freelance writer now. And with my last tiny paycheck from that magazine job, I went to the West Elm store and bought a desk, and to sit on, I bought an ottoman. See previous question about we’re not trying to be a hot 25 year old anymore! I think my back is still screwed up from perching on this little ottoman to type. It was cute, and I liked how it fit into the desk. But, like, terrible idea. Just a terrible setup. And then I did have some years where I worked on my couch, which I also do not advise. CorinneOh, I can’t do that. VirginiaI think that really gets uncomfortable. Also just brain-wise, it makes your work and your leisure time too mixed up. So I would say my number one thing is: To whatever extent you can do it in your house, whether it’s a guest room or a closet, whatever —have your workspace be somewhere other than where you sleep and eat and watch TV. This is really the most important thing to me. I need something I can shut a door on, so I know when I’m not working. But it has evolved over the years. I’ve had a lot of different setups, a lot of different things. I have a lot of home office privilege now, because we have this kind of bonus space that I was able to turn into my office, which is really nice and much bigger than I need it to be, but it’s great. Obviously, you don’t need that. But the comfortable chair, the lighting, all help. Snacks is a great question. I need a morning Diet Coke. I need lunch at 11:30 I’m not a wait all the way till noon. I’m not going to be a hero. I’m going to stop at 1130 for lunch most days. And then I need some chocolate in the afternoon.CorinneI’m not quite so scheduled with my snacks, but yeah, I need snacks.VirginiaThey’re important. So the thing you said about changing locations. I work in my home office until about 3:15 or 3:30 when my kids get home from school, and then I bring my laptop downstairs and we have a table where my younger kid sits to do their homework, and I do my work, side-by-side. That’s when I answer emails and stuff, usually. And it is nice to kind of switch gears and go downstairs.CorinneWhere my desk is in my house is kind of dark and then sometimes, if it’s really nice out, I like to sit at like, my kitchen table where it’s much sunnier.VirginiaNatural light is a nice feature in a home office. It’s not required, but it makes you feel less like you’re in a cave. Good luck! It’s fun to set it up. I also think, have some cuteness, like, have some plants, if you like plants, or fun art. Don’t buy a bad West Elm ottoman to sit on. But like, having it be a little aesthetic is nice.All right, I’m going to read this next one, which is a doozy of a question from OG Burnt Toasty Amy H. Thank you, Amy, for submitting this. I don’t know what I’m going to be able to add! Speaking of the horrifying state of the world, many more people are focusing on being prepared by creating bug out bags. These are bags of supplies you’d take if you had to leave your home the country where there was a major infrastructure failure, no water, heat, cooling, electricity, etc. They’re normally associated with preppers preparing for armed attack or civil war, but there are more mainstream accounts recommending this kind of preparation and weight loss as part of being able to get ready to handle martial law or other situations that might require such resources. I feel weird trying to tell people that weight loss probably won’t help and that their preparation focus. Being thin and nimble to avoid harm leaves out anyone with mobility disabilities, certain elderly folks, people in hospitals, etc. Any thoughts on how to be effective in this conversation about weight loss, not needing to be part of being prepared for distressing situations? I’m prepared for nothing. Corinne, do you have a bug-out bag?CorinneI don’t, but I this is something I’ve thought about. I mean, there are also places in the world where this is just part of being alive. Like if you live in a place where there are hurricanes or fires. So I think one thing is having stuff ready, but I think another thing that is nice to think about is how would you help your neighbors? Do you have people around you who are disabled? I mean, I don’t know what to say about the weight loss thing. VirginiaIt just feels like it’s going to show up fucking everywhere, is what I think. Like, really, really we’re preparing for the end of the world, and people are like, better lose weight for it!!!CorinneI mean, if you feel like you aren’t able to get out of your house by yourself, it’s good to have a plan. But I don’t think the plan needs to be a diet.VirginiaAlso how can you be sure of the timing? You don’t know how fast you’re going to lose that weight. Disaster could hit beforehand. You know, it could be, you could be in a plateau, like...CorinneAnd calories are really important for is your brain, which you might want to be using in a situation like this.Virginia The last thing we need is a hangry group of people trying to survive an apocalypse.CorinneThere are two ways to approach these apocalyptic scenarios. One is: How can I protect myself at all costs? And the other one is: How can I work within a network of people who may have things to offer and may also need things from me? We can help each other. So I would encourage people to think about it that way, rather than, "What can I do to train my individual body to be ready?"VirginiaGod, that’s so wise. So I guess when you’re in conversation with people, if they mention losing weight, you could start to pivot it towards have you thought about how you’re going to help folks in your community? Or, I’ve been worrying about the old lady down the block, like, I wonder if we should talk to her about what she needs. Especially if you live in one of these places where evacuations happen for wildfires or hurricanes or whatever. I mean, I’m just acknowledging I have a lot of East Coast privilege. Not that anywhere is safe, but I don’t live in a place where we are regularly facing this. I guess I just thought everyone I love is coming to my house? I have a lot of Cheez-Its in the basement! I’m pretty prepped on that front, so come on over. CorinneI just also don’t think that being thin necessarily makes you better able to survive a disaster. VirginiaNo. One of the prevailing theories about fatness is we’re the ones who survived the disasters. Like, how did we evolve to survive famines? Holding on to calories is something smart your body does to prevent against destruction.CorinneThere’s that whole paradox where, as you age, it’s actually better to have higher body weight. VirginiaYou need some reserves. Also for babies. If you have babies in the NICU dealing with health issues, weight is a big concern there because the more reserves they have, the more they can survive whatever they’re going through. So yeah. Really not a time to focus on thinness. Really a time to be glad if you’ve got some reserves. And think about how to help other people in your community. That seems super important.Corinneif you do want to exercise to have more mobility, or more ability to get around in an emergency scenario, that’s cool. You can focus on that without focusing on weight loss specifically. All right!What is the fall equivalent of my summer uniform of gauze or linen pants plus a plain t-shirt?VirginiaOh, I love this question. I love this summer uniform. First of all, I kind of want to go redo summer and wear a gauze pants and a plain t-shirt. A+ uniform choice. I have been thinking about this a lot lately, because my summer uniform was those Big Bud Press tank tops and some drawstring linen shorts was kind of what I was living in. So, similar concept. And I had some pants, too...Okay, I guess I was doing linen pants and a plain tee. It's me. I wrote this question. I don’t know what my full fall uniform will be. My hybrid summer/fall uniform until we’re fully into colder weather, is these ImBodhi jumpsuits that I have. I have a black one and I have a blue one, which I wear layered with either a cardigan or an open button down shirt over it. So it’s similar, because it’s like a flowy, wide leg pants with a tank top top, and then a lighter layer. And I’m kind of wondering if you could do the same thing of just adding a button down or a cardigan to your linen pants and plain t shirt? That will get you through the next couple of weeks before it’s we’re fully into fall.CorinneIs it not just jeans and a plain tee?VirginiaBut I feel like the linen pants feels a little more like polished maybe? Jeans might feel too casual? I would think you could go to jeans, but I am very interested in finding some comfortable non-jeans pants for fall. And I don’t know what they are yet. We talked about this last time. My quest continues.CorinneI like the idea of trousers, but I do think they’re hard to find.VirginiaYeah. I want some elastic waist trousers. CorinneOkay, I feel like, Lucy and Yak has some stuff like that, where it’s like, elastic waist, but it’s tapered, and they have a lot of fun colors. I think their sizing can be hard to figure out. VirginiaI had a bad experience with one of their boilersuit type jumpsuits, where I was trapped. I really needed a bug out bag for that apocalyptic situation in my closet. Barely came out alive. Anyway. Do you hone in on a seasonal uniform? Because I really do do this.CorinneI mean, I feel like my uniform is always just...VirginiaJeans and a shirt?CorinneOr shorts and a shirt? But I do tend more towards a button-down. VirginiaYou love a button-down. CorinneI mean, I definitely will wear things over and over again, but I don’t quite think of it as a uniform.VirginiaI love a uniform. I love reducing the decisions, especially during the week. I love having outfits that give me a zero body anxiety, because I found the thing. I guess, related to that first question, like, I found one formula that’s working for my body. Let me just replicate it. But every season, it’s like, oh, what will it be? So I don’t know, what with the colder weather coming, I haven’t cracked it yet this year. But we'll see. CorinneOkay, I’m going to read the next one. It seems like there are very few actively fat-positive bloggers these days. My question is, how does it feel to work with these bloggers, does it ever feel like tokenism? For example, Cup of Jo occasionally features a stylish fat person, but she posts far, far more outfits and people who can fit outfits and labels that are only straight sized. I’m often told at least Cup of Jo posts something for fat people, most bloggers don’t at all. It just feels so hurtful, like I wouldn’t create a blog post that promotes things that only a small percentage of the US population could wear. Eek, I don’t know if I’m being overly sensitive, so I’m curious how you handle it, or if you have a different perspective.VirginiaYeah, I think that’s pretty valid. I think it is very frustrating how much straight size bloggers and newsletter writers, especially in the fashion space, continue to forget that fat people exist and wear clothes. So I really hear this. Corinne, you’ve written about this on Big Undies several times like this. It is an ongoing problem.  CorinneYeah, I actually was just posting about this,  I posted, "New rule! You’re not allowed to use the word everyone or universal or like mankind in your marketing or brand name, if you only make up to a size extra large." I just think it’s like so common to overlook that. And I will say, because this person says, "I wouldn’t create a blog post that promotes things that only a small percentage of people could wear." But I do think we all have blind spots. I think you may not know the people you’re leaving out. I’m sure there are people I leave out, you know? You know, even though I strive not to.VirginiaGood point. How many blog posts contain adaptive clothing?CorinneYeah, or very short inseams. Or people who are allergic to certain materials, there are just so many different ways people can be. And, I have found some people are open to that feedback. And some people aren’t. I’ve had people who see my posts reach out to me then and be like, hey, I would like to include more options in this post I’m doing. How can I do that?VirginiaOn Cup of Jo specifically, I will say Joanna is someone who is very open to that feedback, and I’ve appreciated that about her. I mean, I am one of the stylish fat people she includes from time to time. And I would like her to include more! But recently, she featured a Swedish woman talking about her life, and she referenced Malia Mills swimsuits and said they come in so many sizes for all bodies. So I clicked through, and they go up to a size 16. And it’s not a large 16. And I posted a comment, "Hey, this is so great. It makes me want to move to Sweden. Also, this is not an inclusive brand." And immediately, Joanna was like, "Thank you so much. Yes, correct." So I think it is about offering consistent feedback to these folks and making sure they know that we’re noticing. And that means also noticing when they do it right.And I understand your point about tokenism, and I don’t know how we make progress past tokenism without like—she asks me to do something. I do it so that there’s a fat person on Cup of Jo. Do you know what I mean? And sometimes I don’t and I say "I’m busy. Try Corinne, try someone else." I do try to make sure they’re getting other people on their radar, because that’s part of my responsibility here, to share the platform. But I think we have to keep showing up to those spaces, as readers and as people who might be featured there. And the more we show up and the more we participate, the better it gets. And of course, it’s annoying that this work has to be done. But I do remember being a straight, size person and just truly not understanding this reality.CorinneAnd that Swedish woman is like, oh, here’s a great inclusive brand. It goes up to 16. But I’m someone who, like, most of the time when people are talking about inclusive stuff, they’re talking about "up to 3x," and often the 3x doesn’t fit me. So you’re always leaving someone out.VirginiaEven the most inclusive brands who do go up to a 3X or 4X are not including everybody. There’s no perfect way to do this. But there are better ways to do this. It’s better to include a brand that goes up to 3X than only goes up to 16, but it would be better still to include one that goes up to 5X or 6X. I think Kim France also is getting this message, and she comes from longtime fashion magazine land where nobody was above a size 12—that was unfathomable. And she’s open to it. She’s trying to do better. But there's also the reality that these are all bloggers who have financial relationships with certain brands. They’re sponsored by those brands, and those brands might not be the most size inclusive, and so they’re in a complicated situation. And that is why Burnt Toast relies on paid subscriptions, guys! That is why advertising-driven media is always going to be a little problematic. Because when you are a content creator who is reliant on brands for your income, not on your audience, you are going to do what those brands want. And that’s the problem with that whole system.CorinneSubscribe now!VirginiaI didn’t mean to turn that into a pitch, but I do just think it’s worth noting that this is one business model/ Of you personally don’t like that business model, there are options. And, choose who you’re paying for subscriptions with. There are people trying not to do it that way, but in order to do that, we can’t rely on sponsors. So the subscription model is the alternative. All right. Last question is a fun one. What is everyone doing for Halloween and Halloween costume ideas?CorinneWe’re recording this in mid-September. I do not have any Halloween ideas or any Halloween plans. VirginiaOkay, well, you are a child-free person, because Halloween has been discussed around here since approximately July, I would say. I had one kiddo who she and her friends were going to go as the K-Pop Demon Hunters girl band, but they just switched it to being dragons. I’m not sure if it’s a specific dragon or just dragons, so I’m waiting to hear more about that. And then my younger kiddo is deciding between Elphaba, which I think is going to be the one of the most popular costumes this Halloween, or the Grim Reaper. No matter what, I will be a witch, because I decided last year I have one costume for the rest of my life, and it is witch. So I will be a witch. That said, if she is Elphaba, I might also do the green face paint with her, and we could both be Elphaba. And I did float to Jack that he could be Glinda if he wanted, just to, like, round things out. He was like, I could be the lion. I was like, or better. And he was like, well, that would be better. So we’ll see. We’ll see if that happens. So that’s what we’ve got going on for Halloween. This is my theme of my episode. I’m like, have a uniform. Have a Halloween costume. Never have to make decisions.CorinneDo you guys just go to Spirit Halloween?VirginiaSometimes? Usually their dad actually is in charge of executing their costumes. CorinneOh, nice VirginiaThat's a little mental load I’ve handed off over the years. So sometimes he builds elements. Like, last year, my older kid was Zyborg. So there were a lot of elements of that costume, and he helped her source them, and they made some. When they were younger, I would spend money on a decent Halloween costume because it would go into our dress up box. So we have some Halloween costumes that have been played with for years and that we’ve been able to hand down. Like, we have a good dragon costume that I think both of them wore as little kids, and a ladybug costume. Do you have any local Halloween parties you go to or anything? Or is every year just kind of like whatever?CorinneI think every year is kind of like whatever. There is a neighborhood near me that goes really all out and shuts down a bunch of streets. People go wild. And so I often will, like, walk over to that with friends and walk around. VirginiaI mean, we have discussed Halloween is a hard holiday for fat people, the costume inclusivity, talk about sizing nightmares. If you are also a little bit of a Halloween hater, you can come sit us.CorinneYeah, I don’t love wearing costumes.VirginiaNo, it’s not my favorite, but I’m excited to see what Burnt Toasties dress up as. We’ll try to remember to do a thread. A chat in the chat room! Now that we’re on Patreon. Got to use the lingo! A chat room about Halloween costumes and see what people are dressing up as, because I do like seeing other people’s costumes. I just don’t want the added work myself.CorinneTotally.BUTTERVirginiaYou go first, because I have to remember my Butter.CorinneOkay, well, I’m going with a really classic Butter. My butter is potato chips. Because I just ate some. I’m still in Maine, as discussed. And there’s this really good potato chip brand Fox Family potato chips. They come in like a silver bag. They’re so good. They’re like, they’re better than Cape Cod, in my opinion.VirginiaThat's a major gauntlet thrown with two New Englanders. CorinneI know. And they have a salt and pepper flavor that I am really into right now.VirginiaThat sounds absolutely delightful. My Butter is a new end of garden season thing I’m doing, which is pressing flowers. Jack made me a flower press for my birthday back in April, and then I kind of forgot about it for a few months. And he was like, hey, we should use the flower press. And it was so fun! We picked some flowers, we put it in the press. We forgot about it for three weeks. We opened it up, and they were like... really flat. And I don’t know why that is exciting! And we put them in chunky acrylic frames I have that magnet together, so they were kind of like a nice modern way of because I feel like flower press art. It can be a little twee. It’s always darling. But it’s not like super my aesthetic. I’ve also heard people now suggesting mod podging them onto stuff, which I think could be fun to do with the kids. So we may, we might try some of that. CorinneThat could be a good costume. Mod Podge them onto some shirts or something. VirginiaI thought you meant go as an actual flower press. I was like, what? I tried to be a garden one year. It didn’t go very well.. I’m going to stick with witch. But thank you.CorinneYou could be a flower witch! VirginiaI could be a flower witch! That’s sort of my whole personality, right there. Flower witch. I’m always in my feelings in October about the garden wrapping up, and it’s nice to, like, preserve a little bit of it. It’s like a real low lift, low stakes, low lift. So, yeah, flower press. Well, this was a great episode. We are over here on Patreo! And thank you guys for coming along and checking it out with us. It’s going to be even better than what it was, but also basically the same thing. So don’t feel super stressed about the change. The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies! The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! Today, my guest is Emily Ladau, a disability rights activist, and author of Demystifying Disability. Our conversation today is about the many intersections between anti-fatness and ableism. This is such an important conversation, even if you feel like you’re new to both of these worlds. We investigate who is considered a “worthy” disabled person or a Good Fatty — and how these stereotypes so often pit two marginalization experiences against each other. Today’s episode is free but if you value this conversation, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription. Burnt Toast is 100% reader- and listener-supported. We literally can’t do this without you!PS. You can take 10 percent off Demystifying Disability, or any book we talk about on the podcast, if you order it from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, along with a copy of Fat Talk! (This also applies if you’ve previously bought Fat Talk from them. Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)Episode 213 TranscriptEmilyI am a disability rights activist. I am a wheelchair user. I’m the author of a book called Demystifying Disability: What to Know, What to Say, and How to Be an Ally. It’s a bit of a mouthful, but all of that is really just to say that I am very passionate about educating people about the disability experience, and doing it through a lens that recognizes that we’re all at a different point on the journey of thinking about disability and talking about disability. I really want to welcome people into what I know can be a sometimes overwhelming and uncomfortable conversation.VirginiaYou have been a disability rights activist since you appeared on Sesame Street as a 10 year old. I saw the clip. It’s just adorable, little baby Emily. I mean, first tell us about that if you want! Or if you’re sick of talking about it, I get it. But I would also love to know: When did your disability rights work morph into fat liberation work? And how do you see these two spheres intersecting?EmilyOn the Sesame Street note, my family likes to joke that I am totally milking that, because it happened when I was 10. But that was the first moment that I really understood that disabled people do have a place in the media. Prior to that, I had not seen almost anyone who looked like me, with the exception of two books that I read over and over again. And one other little girl who was also on Sesame Street who used a wheelchair.VirginiaWow.EmilyAnd I’m sure maybe somewhere else out there, there were other things. But I was an early 90s kid, and the media had just not caught up to showing me that I belonged. So having that experience is something that I really don’t take for granted.I like to joke that in many ways, I am the “typical” disabled person. If you look up a stock photo of someone with a disability, it’s probably a white woman using a wheelchair. Oddly enough, she’s probably also on a beach, holding her arms out. You know? VirginiaAs soon as you said it, I have a visual. I’ve seen that picture. Obviously, she’s on a beach.EmilyYes, so I am sort of the cliche version. But at the same time, I’m not. Because there’s sort of an “acceptable” disabled person, and she is the thin, pretty, white woman who is sitting in a wheelchair. I meet, I suppose, some of those traits, but I am someone who, in later years so far, has come to identify as fat and no longer sees that as the derogatory term that it was always leveraged towards me as.Any relationship that I have to fat liberation work has been sort of an evolutionary process for me. It’s newer to me. I didn’t understand when I was younger how that fit into disability rights work. But I see now that we can’t have those conversations separately. First of all, every issue is a disability issue. So every issue impacts disabled people. And second of all, the disability community encompasses every identity, every body type, every experience. There are more than a billion disabled people around the world. So you absolutely have every single possible body type within the disability community. And if we are not talking about fat liberation, if we are not talking about LGBTQIA+ rights, if we are not talking about ensuring that our work is meaningfully intersectional, then it’s not actually disability rights work.VirginiaBut it is tricky to figure out how all those things intersect and fit together for sure.EmilyI feel like I’m constantly playing a game of Tetris with that. And I don’t mean that to say, oh, woe is me. But more so, how do we get society to recognize how those pieces interlock with one another?VirginiaDo you mind sharing a little bit about how anti-fatness shows up in your own experiences? Sometimes it’s helpful to name those moments, because some people listening might think, oh, I’ve had that too, and I didn’t know to name it as anti-fatness, or, oh, I’ve been on the wrong side of that. And it’s helpful to hear why that was not helpful.EmilyThere is no clear direction to take this answer, because it’s impacted me in two diametrically opposed ways.The first is that I have been judged incredibly harshly as being lazy, as being unhealthy, as being someone who maybe doesn’t take care of myself in the way that I should. And the wheelchair is seen as the cause of that.On the flip side, I have also been treated as though disability is the only cause of anything going on in my body, and therefore I should be given a free pass if I am considered, as doctors would say, “overweight.”VirginiaIt’s like, Oh, it’s okay. You’re in a wheelchair. What can we do? We can’t expect you to go for a run.EmilyExactly. So you see what I mean. It’s either one or the other. I’m either bad and lazy or it’s like, oh, poor you. You can’t get up and exercise.VirginiaBoth of those are such judgmental, patronizing ways to talk about you and your body.EmilyThey’re super frustrating. I think that both of those are anti-fatness in their own right. But for me, it sends conflicting messages, because I’m trying to seek medical support for certain issues. And some doctors are like, “Lose weight!” And other doctors are like, “Well, we can’t do anything because you’re in a wheelchair.” And so both of those are very unhelpful responses.VirginiaOh man, it really speaks to the lack of intersectional care in medicine, that people don’t know how to hold these two facts together and also give you comprehensive medical care at the same time.EmilyI wish that we could just have disabled people speaking with medical students as a requirement in every single medical school program. But instead, I feel like we’re either completely relegated to the sidelines of conversations in medical school, or maybe we’re brought up in very clinical and dehumanizing ways, and we don’t stop to think holistically about a person.It’s interesting, because my mom has often said—and I should note, she has the same disability that I do. So she’s a wheelchair user as well. But she feels very strongly that a lot of other medical issues that I am dealing with now were overlooked when I was younger, because everybody was so hung up on my disability that nobody was offering me the support that I needed for other things that could have, in turn, prevented some of what I’m now navigating.So it seems like healthcare can’t hold multiple truths at once.They can’t think about your body and think about everything going on. It’s either you’re fat or you’re disabled.VirginiaGod forbid you have a health condition that is not weight linked and not linked to your disability. That’s going to throw them completely for a loop.EmilyYeah, it’s very much a binary. I think that it’s led to a lot of confusion among healthcare providers. Certainly, I know there have been delayed diagnoses on many, many things. I’ve also had it leveraged against me in terms of what I would consider chronic illness, because I would get sick pretty regularly when I was a child, and every time I would throw up, it would be thrown in my face: “Well you’re eating poorly. You’re not taking care of yourself.” And nobody thought to do anything to check what was actually going on. They just thought that I was not taking care of myself. Turns out I had gallstones and needed my gallbladder removed. But when people see the wheelchair, they don’t take me seriously.VirginiaNo, and let’s be clear: Gallstones is not a condition you can treat by eating salad. Like, that’s not something you can nutrition your way out of.EmilyI could not lettuce my way out of that one.VirginiaAre there any strategies you’ve figured out that helps you get a doctor to cut through some of those biases, or cut through some of that noise and actually focus on what you need them to focus on?EmilyI have to rehearse what I want to say in a doctor’s appointment. And I don’t think I’m unique in that. I’m sure that there are plenty of people who put together their notes and think through very carefully what they want to say before they go. As much as doctors tend to be frustrated when the patient comes in and it’s clear that they were reading WebMD, I’ve found I need to point them in the right direction, because at least it gets them started down the path that I’m hoping to explore.And I’m not saying that I think that I have years of medical school worth of expertise, but when I was little, I used to always complain to my parents, “You’re not in my body. You don’t know how I’m feeling.”VirginiaSo wise.EmilyAnd I think that that remains relevant. I’m not trying to be a difficult patient. But I have very strong awareness of what is happening internally and externally. And so if I come in and I seem like I have it together and I’m prepared, I feel like doctors take me more seriously. And I have a lot of privilege here, because I am a white woman. I communicate verbally. English is my first language. So in a lot of ways, I can prepare in this way. But I don’t think I should have to, to get the medical care that I need.VirginiaDoctors should be meeting us where we are. We shouldn’t be expected to do hours of homework in preparation in order to be treated with basic respect and dignity. And yet, it is helpful, I think, to hear okay, this labor can be beneficial, But it’s a lot of extra labor, for sure.EmilyIt is, and I’ve broken up with doctors over it. And I’ve also had doctors who I think have broken up with me, for lack of a better way to put it.I have had multiple doctors who have just kind of said, “We don’t know how to deal with you, therefore we are not going to deal with you.” And in seeking the care that I need, I have run into walls because of it, whether it’s a literal, physical wall in the sense that I tried to seek care, because I was having GI distress. I tried to go see the doctor, and the doctor’s office was not wheelchair accessible, and they told me it was my fault for not asking beforehand.VirginiaI’m sorry, what? They’re a doctor’s office.EmilyThe one place I actually thought I would be fine and not have to double check beforehand. So that’s sort of the physical discrimination. And then getting into the office, I’ve had doctors who have said, “I’m sorry, I don’t know how to help you.” Go see this specialist. I’m sorry, I don’t know what I can do for you, and then not return my calls.VirginiaOh, I knew this conversation was going to make me mad, but it’s really making me mad.EmilyAnd I say all of this is somebody, again, who has health insurance and access to transportation to get to and from doctors, and a general working knowledge of my own body and the healthcare system. But I mean, if it’s this much of a nightmare for me, multiply that by other marginalized identities, and it’s just absurd.VirginiaIt really is. You’ve kind of led us there already just in talking about these experiences, but I think there’s also so much ableism embedded in how we talk about weight and health. And I thought we could unpack some of that a little bit. One that you put on my radar is all this fearmongering about how we all sit down too much, and sitting is killing us. And if you have a job that requires you to sit all day, it’s taking years off your life. And yet, of course, people who use wheelchairs are sitting down. EmilyI think about this a lot, because I would say at least a few times a year some major publication releases an article that basically says we are sitting ourselves to death. And I saw one I know at least last year in the New York Times, if not this year,VirginiaNew York Times really loves this topic. They’re just all over there with their standing desks, on little treadmills all day long.EmilyI actually decided to Google it before we chatted. I typed in, “New York Times, sitting is bad for you.” And just found rows of articles.EmilyThe first time that this ever really came up for me was all the way back in 2014, and I was kind of just starting out in the world of writing and putting myself out there in that way as an activist. And I came across an article that said that the more I sit, the closer I am to death, basically.It’s really tough for me, because I’m sure there’s a kernel of truth in the sense that if you are not moving your body, you are not taking care of your body in a way that works for you. But the idea that sitting is the devil is deeply ableist, because I need to sit. That does not mean that I cannot move around in my own way, and that does not mean that I cannot function in my own way, but it’s just this idea that sitting is bad and sitting is wrong and sitting is lazy. Sitting is necessary.VirginiaSitting is just how a lot of us get things done every day, all day long.EmilyRight, exactly.VirginiaSure, there were benefits to lifestyles that involved people doing manual labor all day long and being more active. Also people died in terrible farming accidents. It’s all part of that romanticization of previous generations as somehow healthier—which was objectively not true. EmilyYou make such a good point from a historical perspective. There’s this idea that it’s only if we’re up and moving and training for a 5k that we’re really being productive and giving ourselves over to the capitalist machine, but at the same time, doing that causes disability in its own way.VirginiaSure does. Sure does. I know at least two skinny runners in my local social circle dealing with the Achilles tendons ruptures. It takes a toll on your body.EmilyOr doing farm labor, as you were talking about. I mean, an agrarian society is great until you throw your back out. Then what happens?VirginiaThere are a lot of disabled folks living with the consequences of that labor. EmilyAnd I’ve internalized this messaging. I am not at all above any of this. I mean, I’m so in the thick of it, all the time, no matter how much work I read by fat liberation activists, no matter how much I try to ground myself in understanding that fatness does not equal badness and that sitting does not equal laziness, I am so trapped in the cycle of “I ate something that was highly caloric, and now I better do a seated chair workout video for my arm cycle.” And I say this because I’m not ashamed to admit it. I want people to understand that disabled people are like all other people. We have the same thoughts, the same feelings. We are impacted by diet culture.VirginiaGetting all the same messaging.EmilyWe are impacted by fat shaming. And I know that no matter what I would tell another person, I’m still working on it for myself.VirginiaWell, I always say: The great thing about fat liberation is you don’t need to be done doing the work to show up here. We are all in a messy space with it, because it’s it’s hard to live in this world, in a body, period, And you have this added layer of dealing with the ableism that comes up. I mean, even in fat liberation spaces, which should be very body safe, we see ableism showing up a lot. And I’d love you to talk a little bit about how you see that manifesting.EmilyI think that this is a problem across pretty much every social justice movement. I just do Control F or Command F and type in the word “disability” on a website and see if it comes up in the mission statement, the vision, the values, what we care about, our issues. And so often it’s not there and you have to go digging.And I don’t say this to say that I think disability should be hierarchically more important than any other form of marginalization. I’m saying disability should be included among the list of marginalizations that we are focusing on, because it coexists with all other identities. And yet in a lot of fat liberation spaces, I still feel like I am not represented. I don’t see myself. It’s still a certain type of body, and that body is usually non-disabled or not disclosing that they have a non-apparent disability.I have a few people that I come across who I would say are in the fat liberation, fat activism spaces where they are also apparently disabled, and they are loud and they are proud about that. But for the most part, I still don’t see myself. And I think that’s where the ableism comes up, is that we are still celebrating only certain types of bodies. It’s very interesting when you’re in a space where the point is to celebrate all bodies, and yet all bodies are still not celebrated.VirginiaWell, and I want to dig into why that is, because I think it’s something really problematic in how fat politics have developed in the last 10-20, years, As the Health at Every Size movement gathered steam and gathered a following, the message that was marketable, that was easy to center and get people interested and excited about, was you can be healthy at every size. And because we have such an ableist definition of what health is, that meant, let’s show a fat person running. Let’s show a fat person rock climbing. Let’s show a fat ballerina. Let’s show a fat weight lifter, and then you’re automatically going to exclude so many people. So, so many people of other abilities.We had the folks from ASDAH on, who are the keepers of the Health at Every Size principles, and they’ve done a lot of work in recent years to start to shift this. They recognize that there was a real lack of centering disability, and I am really impressed with that. But in terms of the way the mainstream media talks about these concepts, certainly the way I talked about them in my own work for years, that mainstreaming of Health at Every Size was embedded with a lot of ableism.EmilyAnd I came to Health at Every Size pretty early on in my quest to lean into fatness and stop with the internalized body shame. But instead, I think it led to internalized ableism, because I then thought, well, if I’m not going to go climb Mount Everest, am I really living up to the principles of Health at Every Size?VirginiaThere was an expectation that we all had to be exceptional fat people. And that you had to be a mythbuster. And the reality is that fat people, just like any people, are not a monolith, and we don’t all want to rock climb, and we can’t all rock climb, and fatness can coexist with disability. It didn’t make space for that.EmilyWe say the same thing about the disability community, And in the same way that there is the “good fat person,” there is the “good disabled person.” There’s the disabled person who is seen as inspirational for overcoming hardship and overcoming obstacles. And I can’t tell you how many times I have been patronized and infantilized and treated as though it’s a miracle that I got out of bed in the morning. And I like to say to people, it’s not inspiring that I got out of bed in the morning, unless you happen to know me well and know that I’m not a morning person, in which case, yes, it is very inspiring.VirginiaI am a hero today. Thank you for noticing.EmilyI mean, I say that as a joke, but it’s true. There’s nothing inspiring about the fact that I got out of bed in the morning, but in order to be performing at all times as the good disabled person, you have to show up in a certain way in the world. And I feel like that pressure is on me doubly, as a disabled fat person.Because not only do I have to be the good disabled person who is doing my own grocery shopping, but I need to be mindful about what it is that I’m grocery shopping for.I need to be eating the salad in front of people instead of something with a lot of cheese on it, right? So I feel like, no matter what I do when I’m in public, I’m putting on a performance, or at least I’m expected to. I’ve started to be able to work through that. Years of therapy and a healthy relationship. But for a very long time, if I wasn’t the ideal disabled person and the ideal fat person in every way, then I was doing something wrong, rather than that society was wrong for putting that on me.VirginiaAnd it just feels like that’s so much bound up in capitalism, in the way we equate someone’s value with their productivity, with their ability to earn and produce and achieve. I haven’t lived as a disabled person, but I have a kid with a disability, and in the years when we were navigating much more intensely her medical condition, I definitely felt the pressure to be the A+ medical mom, the mom of the disabled kid. There are a lot of expectations on that, too. I had to know the research better than any doctor in the room. I had to have all these strategies for her social emotional health. And I had to, of course, be managing the nutrition. And I can remember feeling like, when do I get to just exist? Like, when do we get to just exist as mother and daughter? When do I get to just be a person? Because there was so much piled on there. So I can only imagine lit being your whole life is another level.EmilyI feel like I’m always putting on a show for people. I always need to do my homework. I always need to be informed. And this manifested at such an early age because I internalized this idea that, yes, I’m physically disabled. I can’t play sports. So I need to make academics into my sports, and I need to do everything I can to make sure I’m getting As and hundreds on every test. And that was my way of proving my worth.And then, well, I can’t be a ballerina, but I can still participate in adaptive dance classes. And I try to get as close as I can to being the quote, unquote, normal kid. And let me say there’s, there’s nothing wrong with adaptive programs. There’s nothing wrong with all of those opportunities. But I think that they’re all rooted somewhat in this idea that all disabled children should be as close to normalcy as possible. Some arbitrary definition of it.VirginiaYes, and the definition of normal is again, so filtered through capitalism, productivity, achievement. We need different definitions. We need diversity. We need other ways of being and modeling. EmilyAbsolutely. And what it comes down to is your life is no less worth living because you’re sitting down.VirginiaAmazing that you have to say that out loud, but thank you for saying it.EmilyI really wish somebody had said it to me. There’s so much pressure on us at all times to be better, to be thinner, to make our bodies as acceptable as possible, in spite of our disabilities, if that makes sense.There are thin and beautiful and blonde, blue-eyed, gorgeous women with disabilities. And I’m not saying that that’s my ideal. I’m just saying that’s mainstream society’s ideal. And that’s the disabled woman who will get the role when the media is trying to be inclusive, who will land the cover of the magazine when a company is trying to be inclusive. But I don’t feel like I’m part of that equation. And I’m not saying this to insult anybody’s body, because everybody’s body is valid the way that it is. But what I am saying is that I still don’t feel like there’s a place for me, no matter how much we talk about disability rights and justice, no matter how much we talk about fat liberation, no matter how much privilege I hold, I still feel like I am somehow wrong.VirginiaIt’s so frustrating. And I’m sorry that that that has to be your experience, that that’s what you’re up against. It sucks.EmilyDo you ever feel like these are just therapy sessions instead of podcasts?VirginiaI mean. It’s often therapy for me. So yes.Not to pivot to an even more uplifting topic, but I also wanted to talk about the MAHA of it all a little bit. Everything you’re saying has always been true, and this is a particularly scary and vulnerable time to be disabled.We have a Secretary of Health who says something fatphobic and/or ableist every time he opens his mouth, we have vaccine access under siege. I could go on and on. By the time this episode airs, there will be 10 new things he’s done that are terrifying. It’s a lot right now. How are you doing with that?EmilyIt’s really overwhelming, and I know I’m not alone in feeling that. And I’ll say literally, two days ago, I went and got my covid booster and my flu vaccine, and I was so happy to get those shots in my arm. I am a big believer in vaccination. And I’m not trying to drum up all the controversy here,VirginiaThis is a pro-vaccine podcast, if anyone listening does not feel that way, I’m sorry, there are other places you can work that out. I want everyone to get their covid and flu shots.EmilyI give that caveat because in the disability community, there’s this weird cross section of people who are anti-vaccine and think that it’s a disability rights issue that they are anti-vaccine. So it’s just a very messy, complicated space to be in. But I make no bones about the fact that I am very, very pro-vaccine.More broadly, it’s a really interesting time to be disabled and to be a fat disabled person, because on the one hand, technically, if you’re immunocompromised or more vulnerable, you probably have better vaccine access right now.VirginiaBecause you’re still in the ever-narrowing category of people who are eligible.EmilySo somehow being disabled is working out in my favor a little bit at the moment, but at the same time, as I say that, RFK is also spreading immense amounts of incorrect information about disability, about fitness, about what bodies can and should be doing. And he’s so hung up on finding the causes and then curing autism.VirginiaNobody asked him to do that.EmilyYeah. Like, no one. Or, actually, the problem is a few people said that they wanted it because people are very loud. Also, I saw that he reintroduced the Presidential physical fitness test.VirginiaLike I don’t have enough reasons to be mad at this man. I was just like, what are you doing, sir?EmilySo on the one hand, he’s sort of inadvertently still protecting disabled people, if you want to call it that, by providing access to vaccines. But mostly he’s just making it a lot harder to survive as a disabled person.I am genuinely fearful for what is going to happen the longer he is at the helm of things and continues to dismantle basic access to health care. Because more people are going to become disabled. And I’m not saying that being disabled is a bad thing, but I am saying, if something is completely preventable, what are you doing?VirginiaRight? Right? Yes, if we lose herd immunity, we’re going to have more people getting the things we vaccinate against.EmilyMany of the major players in the disability rights movement as it was budding in the 1960s and the 1970s were disabled because of polio. I am very glad that they existed. I am very, very glad that these people fought for our rights. I’m also very, very glad that there’s a polio vaccine.VirginiaI guess this is a two part question. Number one, is there anything you want folks to be doing specifically in response to RFK? I mean, call your representatives. But if you have other ideas for advocacy, activism work you’d like to see people engaging in. And two, I’m curious for folks who want to be good disability allies: What do you want us doing more of?EmilyI am a big believer in focusing on things that feel attainable, and that doesn’t mean don’t call your reps, and that doesn’t mean don’t get out there and be loud. But sometimes starting where you are can make the most difference. And so if it feels really overwhelming and you’re not gonna get up tomorrow and go to Washington, DC and join a protest, that’s okay. If you don’t feel like you have the capacity to pick up the phone and call your representatives tomorrow, that’s okay, too. But if you can impact the perspective of one person in your life, I genuinely believe that has a ripple effect, and I think that we underestimate the power of that. Throw one stone in the ocean. All of those ripples create the wave. And so if you have somebody in your life who is being ableist in some way, whether it is through anti-vax sentiment, whether it is through the language that they use, whether it is through the assumptions that they make about people with disabilities, try to take the time to educate that person. You may not change the whole system. You may not even change that person’s mind. But at least give them an opening to have a conversation, offer them the tools and the resources point them in the right direction. And I know that that’s really hard and really exhausting, and that sometimes it feels like people are a lost cause, but I have been able to meet people where they are in that way. Where, if I show up with the research, if I show up with the resources, if I say I’m willing to meet you halfway here, I’m not demanding that you change all your views overnight, but will you at least give me a chance to have a conversation? That’s genuinely meaningful. So that’s my best advice. And I know that it’s not going to change everything, but I’m still a believer in the power of conversation.VirginiaThat’s really helpful, because I think we do avoid those conversations, but you’re right. If you go in with the mindset of, I don’t have to totally change this person on everything, but if I can move the needle just a little bit with them, that does something I think that feels a lot more doable and accessible.EmilyAnd I think it also is about honoring your own capacity. If you are a person who is marginalized in multiple ways, and you are tired of having those conversations, it is okay to set that weight down and let somebody else have the conversations.VirginiaThat is a good use of the able-bodied allies in your life. Put us to work tell us to do the thing because it shouldn’t be on you all the time.EmilyAnd I’m more than happy to have these conversations and more than happy to educate but it’s empowering when we can do it on our own terms, and we’re not often given that opportunity, because we have to be activists and advocates for ourselves at every turn. And so sometimes when somebody else picks up that load, that means a lot.ButterEmilyI thought about this a lot.VirginiaEverybody does. It’s a high pressure question.EmilyI am in the last stages of wedding planning. So my recommendation is more from a self care perspective. When you are in the throes of something incredibly chaotic, and when you are in the throes of navigating the entire world while also trying to plan something joyful—lean into that joy. My recommendation is to lean into your joy. I know I could recommend like a food or a TV show or something, but I think it’s more about like, what is that thing that brings joy to you? I bought these adorable gluten-free pumpkin cookies that have little Jack O’Lantern faces on them. And I’m doing my re-watch of Gilmore Girls, which is a wildly problematic and fatphobic show, and ableist.VirginiaIt sure is. But it’s such a good comfort watch too.EmilyIt’s making me feel a little cozy right now. I think my recommendation is just lean into your joy. You don’t need to solve all the world’s problems. And I don’t say that without complete and total awareness of everything going on in the world. I’m not setting that aside. But I’m also saying that if we don’t take time to take off our activist hats and just be for a few moments, we will burn out and be much less useful to the movements that we’re trying to contribute to.So I hope that is taken in the spirit with which it was given, which is not ignoring the world.VirginiaIt’s clear you’re not ignoring the world. But when you’re doing a big, stressful thing, finding the joy in it is so great.Well, my Butter is a more specific, more tangible thing, but it’s very much related to that, which is my 12 year old and I are getting really into doing our nails. And my Butter is bad nail art because I’m terrible at it, but it’s giving me a lot of joy to, like, try to do little designs. I don’t know if you can see on camera.EmilyI’ve been looking at your nails the whole time, and I love the color. It’s my favorite color, but can you describe what’s on it?VirginiaSo I’ve done like, little polka dots, like, so my thumb has all the polka dots in all different colors, and then every finger is like a different color of polka dots. I don’t feel like the colors are translating on screen.EmilyAnd by the way, it’s a bright teal nail polish.VirginiaIt’s a minty green teal color. My 12 year old and I, we watch shows together in the evening after their younger sibling goes to bed. And we just like about once a week, she breaks out her Caboodle, which brings me great joy, as a former 80s and 90s girl, that has all her polishes in it, and we sit there and do our nails. And it’s very low stakes. I work from home, it doesn’t matter what my nails look like. Last night, I tried to do this thing where you put a star shaped sticker on, and then put the polish over it, and then peel off the sticker to have like a little star stencil. It was an utter fail, like I saw it on Instagram. It looked amazing. It looked like trash on my nails. But it’s like, so fun to try something crafty that you can just be bad at and have fun with.EmilyOh, I love that for you. I really miss the days where I would wear like, bright, glittery eyeshadow and stick-on earrings.VirginiaIt is totally bringing me back to my stick on earring years. And I have all these friends who get beautiful nails done, like gels, or they have elaborate home systems. And I’m just, like, showing up to things with, like, a weird cat I painted on my nail that’s like, half chipped off.EmilyI think that’s the right vibe for the moment.VirginiaIt’s super fun and a good bonding activity with tweens who don’t always want to talk to their mom. So it’s nice when we get there.EmilyYou’re reminding me to go hug my mom.VirginiaPlease everyone, go hug your moms, especially if you were once 12 years old! Emily, this was wonderful. Thank you for taking the time to talk with us. Tell folks where we can find you and how we can be supporting your work.EmilyYeah. So I would say the best place to find me is Substack. My Substack is called Words I Wheel By or you can find me on Instagram. But most importantly, I just love connecting and being here to support people wherever they are on their journey. So I hope people will take me up on that.VirginiaThank you, and I always appreciate you in the Burnt Toast comments too. So thanks for being a part of the space with us.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!We are Corinne Fay and Virginia Sole-Smith. These episodes are usually just for our Extra Butter membership tier — but today we’re releasing this one to the whole list. So enjoy! (And if you love it, go paid so you don’t miss the next one!) Episode 212 TranscriptCorinneToday is a family meeting episode. We’re catching up on summer breaks, back to school, and a whole bunch of diet culture news stories that we’ve been wanting to discuss with you all.VirginiaWe’re also remembering how to make a podcast, because we haven’t recorded together in like six weeks. And it didn’t start off great. But I think we’re ready to go now.CorinneSomeone definitely said, “What day is it?”VirginiaIt’s hard coming out of summer mode. I don’t know if you feel that because you don’t have kids, during back to school, but it is a culture shift.CorinneI don’t think I feel the back to school thing as much, but I’m still in Maine, and it’s actively fall. It’s actively getting cold, and I’m just like, what is happening? I feel this pressure to do something, but I’m not sure what? Hibernate?Virginia“Should I buy a notebook? Should I be wearing fleece? I could go either way.” I don’t know. It’s weird. It is the start of fall. So we are moving into fall mindset. But like, don’t rush me, you know? The dahlias bloom till first frost. That’s my summer.CorinneSummer is so brief.VirginiaI’m having a lot of clothing feelings right now. I am not in a good place getting dressed, and it is for sure weather related, shoulder season-related. I’m in my annual conundrum of when do the Birkenstocks go away? When must our toes be covered for polite society? Am I showing arms? I just I don’t even know how to get dressed. I hate all my clothes. Everything’s terrible.CorinneI think this is part of what I’m feeling. I don’t have enough warm clothes and I also don’t want to buy another pair of sweatpants.VirginiaAnd you’re traveling. So you’re like, “I have warm clothes at home.” Didn’t bring them because you didn’t understand, even though you grew up in Maine and should remember that fall starts quite early there.CorinneI need to get it tattooed on my body. Bring a sweater, bring sweatpants.VirginiaWell, to be fair for this Maine trip, you were really focused on your sister’s wedding. You had your nephew. You’ve had a lot going on.CorinneI was very focused on August, and really not thinking about September.VirginiaWill we even exist after? I mean, that’s how it always is when you’re gearing up for a big event, the post-event doesn’t exist.And I don’t know if you do the thing where you’re like, well, I can deal with that after the big event. And then suddenly it’s after the big event. You’re like, well, now there’s 47 things I need to deal with.CorinneI absolutely do that. Now I’m like, wait. How and when do I get back to New Mexico? Am I going back to New Mexico ever? In which case maybe I do need to buy sweatpants?VirginiaIt’s so hard. Even without a wedding —I feel like all summer, because I have pretty skeleton childcare and I’m wanting to take time off, and it’s a privilege that our job allows some flexibility like that, so when I get requests to, like, do a podcast, do a special thing. I’m like, “Talk to me in September. I can’t do it this summer. Summer mode Virginia can’t do anything extra!” And now I’ve just spent the week saying no to lots of things, because September me can’t do it either. That was folly. I should have just said no the first time!That’s one of those life lessons I’m always relearning that’s really funny. If it’s not an instant yes, it’s a no. And I so often fall into the trap of it’s not an instant yes, so let me kick that can down the curb a little bit, and then then I feel ruder because they come back and I’m like, no, I’m sorry. Actually, we were never going to do that.CorinneAs someone who’s been on the other side of that where, like, I’ll reach out to someone for the Style Questionnaire, and they’ll be like, “Oh, can you ask me in two months?” And then when I reach out in two months, and they’re like, “No.”VirginiaTotally. I’m on the other side of it all the time when we’re booking podcast guests. So I’m completely aware of how shitty it feels. So I have a resolution. Summer Virginia just has to say no to things and not push it to Fall Virginia. Everyone hold me accountable next summer, because I’m so sorry to everybody I’ve said no to this week, but September is a real intense parenting month. There are just a lot of moving parts.I get 62 emails a day from the school. The middle school just announced back to school night will be tomorrow. They told us yesterday! One cool thing is, my older kid is in seventh grade now, so I no longer have to scramble for babysitters, which is a real achievement unlocked. Although she’s going to realize at some point that she should increase her rates with me.CorinneOh, you pay her!VirginiaFor stuff where I’m going to be out of the house and need her to put her sister to bed. It’s one thing, if I’m like, “I’m going to the store, you guys don’t want to come.” Fine. You can doodle around at home. And it’s not even really babysitting. She’s going to ignore her the whole time. But I’m going to be out from 6 to 8pm tomorrow night. I need her to actually make sure her younger sibling gets in pajamas and brushes teeth and, moves towards bed. I’m not expecting them to be in bed when I get home, but I would like them to not be nowhere close.CorinneThat’s really sweet.VirginiaPlus we have some big stuff in the works for both Burnt Toast and Big Undies, which we cannot discuss just yet. Yes, I am actively teasing it for you all.CorinneYou’re going to bring that up now?! I feel like we should mention it at the end.VirginiaI think we can mention it whenever we feel like? I think they’re probably like, “Why are they both doing reader surveys? What’s going on?” And we can’t say yet, but there’s something going on, and it’s also requiring a lot of our time and attention.CorinneWe’re really busy. But I think it’s going to be really good, and everyone’s going to love it.VirginiaIn the meantime, though: What are we wearing? Real talk, what are we wearing to get through this weird it’s not summer, it’s not fall, it’s some hybrid state. Are you still wearing open toed shoes? Sandals?CorinneNo, I’m not.VirginiaOkay. Should I stop, too?CorinneI mean, I’m only not because I’m cold. It depends on if you’re cold. I also think now is kind of the perfect time for socks with sandals.VirginiaMost of my sandals are something between my toes style. CorinneOh, I was thinking, like, socks with Birkenstocks.VirginiaAh! I do have some of the two strap Birkenstocks, and I don’t tend to wear them a lot in summer. Maybe I should experiment!CorinneI feel like, when you wear socks with the two strap Birkenstocks, they become really cozy.VirginiaI don’t wear them a lot in summer because I don’t have particularly wide feet, and they’re a little wide on me. But the sock would solve for that! And they would be cozy… all right, I’m going to experiment with this, as part of my shoulder season style.CorinneI’m still figuring out my fall must haves, which is one of my favorite topics. Although I will say I feel like this year I’ve seen a lot of people posting like, “I don’t want to hear about back to school, or I don’t want to hear about fall fashion.”VirginiaI have terrible news for people about this podcast. CorinneI feel it’s very light hearted. It could be literally anything like, who cares? We are entering fall, so…VirginiaTime is passing.CorinneI am getting cold. I do want to put on socks with my sandals and sweatshirts.VirginiaTrigger warning for anyone who is not available for a fall fashion conversation.CorinneMaybe by the time this comes out, people will be ready.I know this is like florals for spring, but I’m feeling for fall… brown pants.VirginiaWait, what? You’re blowing my mind? You’ve been feeling brown for a little while. CorinneBrown has been ramping up. I’m wearing brown pants right now.VirginiaIs it one of your colors, as a true spring?CorinneWell, I do think there are definitely some camels. And I think brown is preferable to black. So I’m thinking brown pants instead of black pants.VirginiaOh, I don’t even know what I’m thinking about pants. I’m thinking frustration with pants. I have my one pair of jeans that I reliably wear. I think I need to order another pair in case they stop making them. I’m at a scarcity mindset point with those Gap jeans. I mean, they aren’t going to stop making them. They’ve had them for years, but I just feel like I need an insurance policy.CorinneDo you fit other Gap pants, or just the jeans?VirginiaI only buy that one pair of jeans. I mean, I generally try not to shop at the Gap because they do not have a plus size section.CorinneBut they do have some really cute stuff.VirginiaIt’s gross though! Make it bigger.CorinneIf it fits you, maybe you should buy it.VirginiaCorinne is like, “Or counterpoint, don’t take a stand.”CorinneI’m always sending links to my straight-size sister for stuff at the Gap that I think she should buy.VirginiaThey do have some really cute stuff, but it infuriates me that Old Navy can make plus sizes, and Gap cannot, and Banana Republic really cannot. It’s just like, hello, class system, capitalism. It’s so revolting.CorinneOh, my God. Do you know what else I’m feeling outraged about? I went thrift shopping here a couple weeks ago, and I found some vintage Land’s End that was in sizes that they don’t make anymore.VirginiaWow, that’s rude.CorinneIt was a 4X! So they used to be way more 26/28 or 28/30. So they also, at some point, kind of cut back.VirginiaThey do, at least legitimately have a section called plus size, though.CorinneThey do, but it clearly used to be bigger.VirginiaNo, no, no. I’m not saying it’s great. I am wearing my favorite joggers a lot, because I think I’m really resisting the shift back to hard pants.CorinneHow do you feel about trousers, like a pleated trouser kind of pant?VirginiaIs that comfortable for working from home? A pleated trouser?CorinneWell, I feel like they’re comfortable because they’re kind of baggy but narrower at the bottom, you know?VirginiaI do love a tapered ankle. I also unpaused my Nuuly. And I did get a blue corduroy pair of pants from them that it hasn’t been quite cold enough to wear because shoulder seasons. Corduroy, to me is like a real like we are fully in cold weather fabric. And when it’s 50 in the morning, but 75 by lunchtime, am I going to be hot in corduroys? I guess I should just start wearing them and see.CorinneAre they jeans style? VirginiaThey’re slightly cropped so that’s another reason to wear them now, while I can still have bare ankles. They’re slightly cropped and slightly flared, and they’re like a royal blue corduroy.They’re Pilcro, which is an Anthropologie brand and I know we feel gross about Anthropologie. But when it comes to pants, I think Corinne is saying we can’t have moral stances because pants are so hard to find. Other things, yes.CorinneIt’s just hard.VirginiaI’m not excited about clothes right now. I want to feel more excited. Maybe I need to think about what my fall must haves are. Maybe I need to make a pin board or something.CorinneI think that’s a good idea. Is there anything you’re feeling excited about? I remember the last episode you were talking about those Imbodhi pants.VirginiaOh yeah. They’ve really become lounge around the house pants, and they’re great, but they’re very thin. Imbodhi feels like a brand you could not wear once it gets cold.Although, the jumpsuit I have from them in periwinkle—which does feel like a very summery color to me—I also got black. And over the summer it felt a little too black jumpsuit. It felt like too formal or something. But I’ve been enjoying it as a transition piece. I am still wearing it with sandals. I think it would look cute with maybe my Veja sneakers, though, and then layering over my denim shirt from Universal Standard, like open over it.I’m glad we’re talking about this, because that’s what I’m going to wear to back to school night tomorrow night, which is a high pressure dressing occasion.CorinneI can see that.VirginiaYou don’t want to look like you tried too hard, but you also don’t want to look like you came in pajamas. Lots of yoga moms, a lot of pressure. Okay, I’m going to wear that black jumpsuit. I’m glad we talked about that. That’s been a good transition piece.CorinneYeah, okay, well, speaking of transitions, I want to ask you about something else. Are you familiar with the Bechdel Test?VirginiaYes.CorinneDon’t you think we should have a Bechdel test for anti-fatness? And/or diets? Like, does this piece of culture have a fat character who’s not the bad guy, or on a weight loss journey, or being bullied for their size?[Post-recording note: Rebecca Bodenheimer reached out after this episode aired to let us know she wrote about this exact concept for the LA Times in 2020. Read her excellent piece here!]VirginiaOohhh… OK, so what would our terms be? They can’t be the fat villain.CorinneWell, I feel like there’s one list for anti fatness, and one would be a piece of culture or whatever that doesn’t discuss dieting or weight loss. And I don’t know if it should all be one under one Bechdel test umbrella, or if it should be two different tests.VirginiaI feel like it’s related. Wait, I need to look up the actual Bechdel Test criteria.CorinneIt’s like, does the movie have two female characters talking about something other than a man.VirginiaThe work must feature at least two women.They must talk to each other. And their conversation must be about something other than a man.I was just watching Your Friends and Neighbors, that new John Hamm show about super rich people stealing from each other, and it’s very entertaining, but it fails the Bechdel test so dramatically. It’s got Amanda Peet in it! She’s so smart and funny, and all she does is talk about her ex husband and how much she loves him. And I’m just like, fail, fail, fail. Anyway, okay, I love this idea.CorinneSo it’s like, does it have a fat character?VirginiaWait, I think it should have more than one fat character.CorinneThat bar is too high. I feel like we have to be able to name something that passes the test. And what are we calling the test? The Burnt Toast Test?VirginiaWe can workshop names in the comments.CorinneWe need a famous fat person to name it after, maybe.VirginiaWell, I guess Allison Bechdel named it after herself. So it could be the Fay test, because you did this. The Corinne Fay test.CorinneOh, God.So it has to have one fat character, they have to talk about something other than weight loss, and they can’t be the villain.VirginiaI would like them not to be the sidekick, too. I think it’s a central fat character.CorinneCan we name anything that passes?VirginiaShrill by Lindy West. And Too Much. Well, Lena Dunham doesn’t totally pass the Bechdel Test, but she passes the fat test.CorinneSee, it gets very complicated. This is intersectionality!VirginiaWe strive for an intersectional world where the shows pass all the tests. This is such an interesting topic. I love this.CorinneI was also thinking about it because on my drive out, I read two of these Vera Stanhope mysteries. Have you read any of these?VirginiaI have not.CorinneThe main detective woman is fat, and I feel like it’ mostly fine. Like, 90% of the time they’re just talking about her, she’s fat, and she’s sloppy. She’s a sloppy fat person. And then, like, occasionally, there’ll be like, a sentence or two where I’m like, Ooh, I didn’t like that.VirginiaIt’s so deflating when you have something that’s seeming good, and then it takes a turn on you real fast.CorinneSo would that pass the the fat Bechdel Test? Or whatever? Probably would.VirginiaBecause it’s as good as we can get.CorinneShe’s the main character and not talking about dieting, really.VirginiaYeah, wait, so where does it fall apart for you?CorinneI should have brought an example, but I feel like occasionally there will be narration about her, and it’s suddenly like, “her body was disgusting,” you know? VirginiaOh God! I was thinking she maybe lumbered, or she sat heavily, or something. And you’re like—CorinneYes. She sat heavily, that kind of thing. And I’m like, okay, sure.But occasionally there’s just a twinge where I’m like, oh, you do kind of hate fat people.VirginiaI would then like that author to read Laura Lippman’s work. Because Laura Lippman—regular Burnt Toasty! Hi, Laura!—has been doing such good work as a thin author to really work on her fat representation. And I just read Murder Takes a Vacation, which is one of Laura’s most recent novels, and it’s such a good read. Her protagonist, Mrs. Blossom, I believe was previously a side character in other novels who now has her own book. And the way she writes about body stuff in there is like… Laura’s been doing the work. She’s been really doing the work. It for sure, passes the Fay Fat Test.CorinneThat’s awesome.VirginiaSo everyone check that out. And I would like Ann Cleeves to be reading Laura Lippman.Should we talk about airplanes? Are you in a safe space to talk about airplane feelings?CorinneSure. Yes.VirginiaCorinne was just quoted in The Washington Post, which is very exciting, alongside Tigress Osborne, friend of the show, Executive Director of NAAFA, about how Southwest Airlines is changing their passenger of size policy. Do you want to brief us on what’s happening there?CorinneSo Southwest has had a policy in which a “customer of size,” meaning a person who doesn’t fit between two plane arm rests, can book two seats and be refunded for the second seat. Or you could show up at the airport day of, and ask for two seats. And not have to pay up front and then be refunded.And in the past couple of months, this policy has somehow gotten really wobbly. I’ve heard all these anecdotal stories about people showing up at the airport and having Southwest tell them, “You’re not going to be able to do this anymore.” Like, don’t expect to show up and be able to book a second seat. You need to do it in advance. Blah, blah, blah.Now Southwest has come out and said they’re changing the policy. They’re also implementing assigned seating, which they didn’t used to have. So going forward, you are going to have to book two seats in advance, and you will only be refunded if there are empty seats on the plane. Which, when are there ever empty seats?VirginiaThere are never empty seats on the plane? Never happens.I don’t understand, because you needed two seats before, you still need two seats. So why does it matter whether there’s an empty seat or not? My brain breaks trying to follow the logic.CorinneI think the logic says like they could have sold the second seat to someone else.VirginiaBut then they’re not selling seats that work for people who are paying money to be there. Like, they’re taking your money, but if you can’t fit on the plane, then they just took your money. It’s so shady,CorinneAnd people who don’t need a whole seat don’t pay less.VirginiaOver the age of two, your children do not get discounts for the fact that, they are using a third of a seat. You pay the same price for a child. CorinneYep. It’s really sad, and it’s making life harder and sadder for a lot of people.VirginiaI’m curious if another airline will step up on this. I think NAAFA has been doing a good job of making noise about this. I think people are putting pressure on them. It will be interesting if someone else realizes this is like a marketing opportunity.CorinneI think, they absolutely will not.VirginiaWell, I’m not naive enough to think someone would do it just because it’s the right thing to do. But I’m hoping maybe one of Southwest’s direct competitors would realize it’s an opportunity.CorinneBut I think that Southwest previously was the that airline. I think they were using that to their advantage, and now I think they’ve just been like, “It’s not worth it.” I think Alaska has the same policy where you can book two seats, and then if there is an empty seat, they’ll refund it.VirginiaWell that’s great because Alaska flies so many places, people need to go.CorinneWell, if you’re in the if you’re in the part of the country where I live, they do! But.VirginiaOh! That’s good to know.CorinneI think they’re more on a competition level with Southwest versus like United or something, right? I don’t think United or Delta even has a customer of size policy.VirginiaThey’ve never cared.CorinneThere’s no way to even book a second ticket for yourself, even if you want to just straight up pay for it.VirginiaIt leaves you the option of figuring out if you can afford business class to have a bigger seat. And that makes flying so much more expensive.CorinneRight? And it’s also just like, does business class fit everyone? Probably not.VirginiaWell, we’re mad about that, but I did, like seeing you in the Washington Post article saying smart things. So thank you. Thanks your advocacy.Let’s see what else has been going on… The Guardian had this interesting piece, which I’m quoted in a little bit, by Andrea Javor. She’s articulating something I’ve seen a few people starting to talk about, which is the experience of being on Ozempic and not losing weight from it.And I think this is an interesting kind of under the radar piece of the whole GLP1s discourse. Some folks are non-responders, whether because they stay on a lower dose by choice, and it improves their numbers, but they don’t really lose weight, or some folks just don’t really lose weight on it. Her piece really articulates her feelings of shame and failure that this thing that’s supposed to be a silver bullet didn’t work for her.CorinneWhen I started reading the piece, I was extremely confused, because the the author has diabetes, but type one diabetes, and these drugs don’t help with type one diabetes. She eventually goes on it, just for weight loss. So what it didn’t work for was weight loss, And I think it actually may have ended up helping with her, like A1C, and stuff. I agree that it does a good job of looking at the feelings that come along with that. And I do think, this does happen, and it’s not being talked about as as much as it’s happening probably.VirginiaIt feels important to highlight it in this moment where we have Serena Williams talking, about her husband’s telehealth company and promoting her use of GLP1s. And we had a great chat on Substack chat about the whole Serena Williams of it all. So I won’t rehash that whole discourse here. I also think that’s a conversation where I want to hear from Black women. Chrissy King wrote an incredible piece. I also really appreciated the conversation that Sam Sanders, Zach Stafford and Saeed Jones had on Vibe Check about it. So, I don’t need to get into Serena’s personal choices. But it does mean, we have another huge, very admired celebrity pushing into the conversation again to say, “This is this magic trick. This is the thing I was always looking for. It finally worked for me” And we are all vulnerable to that messaging. So it’s important to read stories like this one and understand oh, it really doesn’t actually work for everybody. Setting aside whether we think people should be pursuing weight loss, this isn’t necessarily going to be guaranteed, amazing results. CorinneAnother interesting article that I thought maybe would want to mention is the the one in The Cut about ARFID.VirginiaThis was a great cover story in New York Magazine. The headline is The Monster at the Dinner Table, and it’s basically just encapsulating that ARFID has really been on the rise in recent years, and I think a lot of that is just because now we know what it is and we can diagnose it.But it did include a pretty interesting discussion of what causes kids to lose the instinct to eat, what things get in the way of it. Like, it can be trauma, it can be a feature of autism. It can be a choking experience, all sorts of different things.CorinneARFID is one of those conditions that I feel like I barely knew about before TikTok, and then I’ve just seen so much stuff about it on Tiktok.VirginiaIt only became a diagnosis in 2013, so it’s very, very new. My kiddo would have been diagnosed with it, if it was more fully in the vernacular at that point, but it wasn’t. So we were just told it was a “pediatric feeding disorder” type of thing. But it was very vague.I think it’s great it’s getting more attention. Both for kids and adults. It can be such a source of anxiety and shame for parents. It is so much work. It is very difficult, and it’s harder than it should be because of diet culture, because of all the pressure put on parents to feed our kids certain ways. The backlash against ultraprocessed foods is really not helping anyone navigate ARFID. I can’t underscore that enough, really not helping. No one needs to feel shame about your kid living on chicken nuggets or frozen burritos or whatever it is.CorinneThe amount of stigma against people who eat certain ways is nuts.VirginiaIt’s nuts and it’s sad.CorinneYeah it’s socially isolating.VirginiaIt is harder to share, right? It’s very socially isolating, and it’s sad for the people around them. Anytime you’re navigating eating together with someone with food restrictions, it does create barriers and extra work and more you have to navigate.But if we didn’t have that layer of stigma over it, where it’s like, it’s probably the mom’s fault, if only they like more whole foods at home, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, if we didn’t have all of that, you could focus just on the logistics are hard enough. You don’t need the shame.So many sad topics. Airlines are terrible. Virginia doesn’t have any clothes to wear. ARFID is sad. Do we have anything to bring it up?CorinneWell, our exciting news? VirginiaOh, right! We are working on some very fun things.It is exciting to think about new directions that Burnt Toast and Big Undies are going in. So stay tuned. Don’t worry, it’s not a reality TV show.ButterVirginiaOkay, my Butter is adjacent to the wardrobe frustration conversation. Which is: I have started cutting the collars off a lot of my shirts.To back up: Last month, I’m on vacation in Cape Cod with my sister, and she comes down looking extremely cute. She’s wearing a graphic tee tucked into a long maxi skirt. And I was like, “This whole thing is delightful. What’s happening here?” And she was like, “Well, this shirt was actually too small for me, but I realized if I just cut the collar off it, it opened up the neck enough that then the shirt, the whole shirt fit better.” And she could still wear this cute shirt. And she said she got the idea from watching Somebody Somewhere, because Bridgett Everett cuts the collars off all her shirts.CorinneOh yes! That was my signature look when I was 18. A Hanes T-shirt with the collar cut off.VirginiaI’m dressing like 18-year-old Corinne, and I’m here for it! But I’ve realized, frequently a place that something doesn’t fit me is my neck. I’ve talked about feelings about chins and necks. I have many complicated feelings about chins and necks. This is one place where my fatness sits. So the shirt might otherwise fit okay, but it doesn’t fit my neck, and then it feels tight and it’s a miserable feeling. So at the end of our trip, I wanted to buy a Cape Cod sweatshirt, because there were some really cute sweatshirts. But they were not size inclusive. So I was like, can I make this extra large work? And it was a little small, but I cut the collar off, and now it’s okay.And then I did it with my old Harris Walz T-shirt from the election. It was a cute stripe. I just really liked the stripe. And I was like, Oh, I could still wear this if I get the collar off it. And a couple other things. I’ve just been, like, cutting collars off shirts that are uncomfortable. I’m into it!CorinneI think that’s a great Butter. I’m into any kind of clothes modification that will make you wear stuff that you wouldn’t otherwise wear.VirginiaIt was a good solution for a couple of things in my closet that I did like, but I was not reaching for. And now I’ll use them again. And the key I figured out, because I experimented with a couple ways to cut it, is really just cut right along the seam of the sewed on collar. You might think that’s going to not open it up enough, but it will stretch once you start wearing it. you could always cut more if you needed to, but that seems to have done it for me.CorinneOkay, well, I want to recommend a recipe, and I feel like I possibly mentioned this before. I’m staying with my mom, and we’ve been making this recipe from the New York Times called stuffed zucchini, and it’s a really good recipe for if you have a surplus of zucchini, which a lot of people do this time of year. You kind of scoop out the middle of a zucchini and then mix some of that together with, like, sausage, tomatoes, basil, and then put it back in the zucchini and bake it with, like, some crispy breadcrumbs, and it’s so good. I can literally, eat a whole zucchini in one sitting. Highly recommend.VirginiaThat sounds amazing. All right. Well, that makes me a little more excited about the season.CorinneYeah, it is a very good time of year for eating. We should have talked more about food maybe?VirginiaThat is a good point. Our tomatoes in the garden are going gangbusters. I’ve made some great sauces. I’m having a lot of cheese and tomato sandwiches. toasted and not toasted. Delightful.Well, this was a good family meeting catch up. I think we’ve covered a lot of ground. I’m excited to hear what folks are feeling about their dressing issues, and airlines, all the stuff we got into today.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! Today, my guest is Denise Hamburger, founder and director of Be Real USA. Be Real is a nonprofit that imagines a world where every child can grow up with a healthy relationship to food and their body. They work with body image researchers, psychologists, teachers and public health officials to design curricula about nutrition and body image that are weight neutral, and inclusive of all genders, abilities, races and body sizes.So many of you reach out to me every September to say, “Oh my God, you're not going to believe what my kid is learning in health class.” Food logs, fitness trackers, other diet tools are far too common in our classrooms— especially in middle and high school health class. Denise is here to help us understand why those assignments are so harmful and talk about what parents and educators can do differently. This episode is free — so please, share it with the parents, teachers and school administrators in your communities! But if you value this conversation, consider supporting our work with a paid subscription. Burnt Toast is 100% reader- and listener-supported. We literally can’t do this without you.PS. You can always listen to this pod right here in your email, where you’ll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and/or Pocket Casts! And if you enjoy today’s conversation, please tap the heart on this post — likes are one of the biggest drivers of traffic from Substack’s Notes, so that’s a super easy, free way to support the show!Two Resources You’ll Want From This Episode: BeReal Let’s Eat Curriculum is attached.And here’s a roundup of everything I’ve written on diet culture in schools:The Burnt Toast Guide to Diet Culture in SchoolsEpisode 211 TranscriptDeniseWell, this all started I would say about 10 years ago. Actually, about 12 years ago. I was an environmental lawyer in my first career—that's what I'm trained to do. I went to law school, was practicing in big law firms. Which has nothing to do with body image, except I was an environmental lawyer who weighed herself every day and got her mood affected by the number on the scale for 40 years. So that's four decades.VirginiaSo many times getting on a scale.DeniseI really felt like I didn’t want anyone else, especially young women today, to waste the amount of time and energy that I had wasted distracting them from what they need to be doing in their lives, figuring out their own person possibilities. That’s really what you’re here to do. And it takes us away from what we’re supposed to be doing.With that in mind, I went back to school at the University of Chicago, and I was thinking of get a social work degree and doing something with body image. But then I wrote a paper on my own body image for one of my classes at the School of Social Work and I found 50 years of research on body image. And then 30 years of discussion and research on how to prevent eating disorders and body dissatisfaction. Like, wow, there is so much out there, so much research on this. But I haven’t heard any of this. It feels like it’s not making its way into resources that people can use.So I started speaking on it, and I was speaking to middle-aged women, and I thought the message that we all would really benefit from would be everybody’s got this. Because I feel like, especially my generation, where we didn’t really talk about how we felt about our bodies. I’m at the tail end of the Baby Boom. So I’m 62 and I felt that people in my generation—again, I was 50 at the time—weren’t in touch with their own feelings on body image. After talking about this for so many years, younger generations have access to it I think a lot more. But I felt like we could all benefit from knowing that everybody’s got it—so kind of a common humanity. It’s not our fault, which helps with the shame around it.So everyone has it, it’s not our fault, and society has given it to us. And I think that this is something that would resonate with my generation. So I started speaking in local libraries and community houses to women my age, and quickly learned that it is really hard to undo decades worth of thought patterns and feelings around food, body and eating. People came to hear me talk about body image, and I think, in general, when I started out, they were hoping I had a new diet.VirginiaOh, I’m sure they were. I’m sure they were like, “Oh, we’re going to go hear her talk about how to love your body by making it smaller!”DeniseAbsolutely. And all of the women, because they were women in my workshops, were starting to talk about their daughters. They’re saying that my daughter’s got this, and she’s coming home and saying this. Then in one of my audiences, I had a health teacher at my local high school. There was a health teacher who came and said—this is about 2015—you should hear what the young girls are saying. They’ve got this new thing called Instagram and and they’re seeing pictures of, “perfect” looking people and feeling bad about themselves or feeling flawed in comparison.So she said, “What resources are there for for the students in my class?” And I said, there has got to be something because there is 50 years’ of research there, there has got to be something fabulous for you. And I called the professors listed on the the studies. The granddaddy of the industry, Michael Levine, I called him up. I said, “Michael, just tell me, what can I recommend to these teachers?” And he’s like, “I don’t know. I don’t know. We don’t have it. It’s not there. Even though the research is there.”So there was a curriculum created for high risk kids. It needed to be given by facilitators called The Body Project. And I called one of the professors who wrote The Body Project and said, “Listen, I’d like to give this tool to a teacher for universal,” which means giving it to everybody in the classroom, and and she wants to bring it to her high school, but it looks like you need to be trained. And it was a script. The Body Project was a script. And this teacher said to me, I’m not reading a script in a classroom. You’re not going to get a high school teacher to read a script.VirginiaYeah. I would imagine high school students sitting in a classroom aren’t going to respond to someone just reading a script at them.DeniseNobody wants to hear it. It’s not useful. It wasn’t created for that use. So this professor, Carolyn Becker, had actually written a paper on how the academics need to work with stakeholders to make sure that their research makes it to the public. And I said, I’m calling you. I’m a stakeholder. What do you need? And she said, “We need somebody to translate it.” And I said, “I’m your girl.”VirginiaI mean, it’s wild that the research has been there. We’ve known what works, or what strategies to use for so long, and yet it’s not in the pedagogy, it’s not in the classrooms.So you started with the body image curriculum, BodyKind. And now this year, you’ve just released your weight neutral nutrition curriculum for middle and high school students, called Let’s Eat.Full disclosure: I got to be a early reader of the of the curriculum and offer a few notes. It was already amazing when I read it.DeniseThank you.VirginiaI did not have to add a lot at any by any means, but it was really cool to see the development process, and see where you ended up with it. It’s really remarkable. So let’s start by talking about why nutrition. You’ve done the body image thing, that’s really powerful. Why was nutrition the next logical place to go?DeniseI have spoken at this point to probably 10,000 teachers. And they’re always asking me, what nutrition curriculum do you recommend? Same deal. There’s not one out thereAnd I had asked one of my interns to give me her textbook on it, like what are you learning about nutrition? And in my intern’s textbook, it was 2018, you saw encapsulated the entire problem of what’s wrong with nutrition curriculum.They are asking the children to weigh and measure themselves, and they’re asking the children to count calories in different ways, and to track their food. Food logs. Again, these were best practices in the 90s and and 2000s on how to teach nutrition. So this is all over the nutrition curriculum.Then, of course, they’re talking about good and bad foods, which foods can you eat, which foods you can’t you eat, and all of these things in the research we know cause disordered eating and eating disorders, they all contribute to it. I have a list of probably nine research papers that point to each of these things and tell you why these are bad ideas to have a nutrition class.And we also know there have been two papers written, where they polled students or young people coming in for eating disorder treatment and asked them, what do you think triggered your eating disorder? And around 14% in both studies said, “My healthy eating curriculum at school was where I started getting this obsession.” So you know, what’s out there hasn’t been helpful, and even worse, has been part of the problem in our society.[Post-recording note: Here’s Mallary Tenore Tarpley writing about this research in the Washington Post, and quoting Oona Hanson!]VirginiaIt’s so rooted in our moral panic around “the childhood obesity epidemic.” Educators, public health officials, everyone feels like, that’s the thing we have to be worried about if we’re going to talk about kids and food. It all has to be framed through that lens. And what you are arguing is: That weight-centered approach causes harm. We can see from the data that it’s not “fixing” the obesity epidemic. Kids aren’t thinner than they were 40 years ago. So it didn’t work. And it’s having all these unintended ripple effects, or sometimes, I would say, intended ripple effects.DeniseYes, exactly. Studies on nutrition curriculum have shown that over 11 years, teaching diet and exercise did not do anything, in two age groups. One was elementary/middle school, another one was a high school group. And they found no changes in body size or nutritional knowledge and and only the effects of what they call weight stigma. Which is just anti-fat bias. So it only causes harm. And these meta studies were from “obesity researchers,” right? So they are even acknowledging we don’t know how to prevent obesity.VirginiaSo you could see very clearly why the current landscape is harmful. How did you think about how to design a better curriculum?DeniseWe had been working on the back burner on an intuitive eating for students type of curriculum. Because the question I get from my teachers is, “What should I be teaching?” So we had been kind of working on an intuitive eating curriculum, and then one of my ambassadors, Selena Salfen, she works in Ramsey County Public Health in Minnesota, said, “Hey, we’re looking for a nutrition curriculum. Why don’t we do one together?”It really turned into how to eat, not what to eat. So we started working on body cues and building trust with your food. And then started really focusing on empowering the student as an authority on their own eating behavior, teaching them how to learn from their own eating experiences. Which is part of responsive feeding. And Ellyn Satter’s Division of Responsibility In Feeding. So we have pieces from all of these. We are empowering students to be experts on their own eating.VirginiaIt’s also so much more respectful of students’ cultural backgrounds, as opposed to the way we learned, like the food pyramid or MyPlate, saying “this is what your plate should look like.” And that doesn’t look like many plates around the world. That’s not what dinner is in lots of families. Your curriculum is saying, let’s empower students to be the experts is letting them own their own experience.DeniseAbsolutely, and trust their own experience. And trust themselves. And they don’t have to go outside of themselves. We want to teach them to act in their own best interests. That’s part of self-care, teaching them to take care of themselves. They need to learn it somewhere.So if you do what they’ve done for years and tell them you need to cut out sugar and you need to cut out carbs, or you need to get this this many grams of protein, it leaves off all of the wonderful parts of eating that we get to experience many times a day, which is the joy, the pleasure, the sharing of food. So in our curriculum, we ask the kids, what do you do in your culture around food? How do you celebrate in your culture with food? What do you eat?We get the discussion going with them and allowing them to feel pride in how their family celebrates. And so it’s really bringing in all these other aspects that we experience with food every day into talking about food. And we talk about pleasure, what do you like, what food do you like, what food do you enjoy? And we want them to be able to hold what foods they like, what their needs are that day.So you talked about MyPlate, MyPlate is stagnant. It always looks the same. But your nutritional needs change every day. If I’m sick, my needs around nourishment are different from if I’ve got a soccer match after school that day. So we’re trying to teach them to be flexible and really throw perfectionism out the window, because it’s unhelpful in any area of life, but especially around eating, especially around food.VirginiaI’m wondering what you’re hearing from school districts who are worrying about the federal guidelines. Because they do need to be in compliance with certain things. DeniseSo we spent a long time with the Food and Nutrition guidelines. The CDC food and nutrition guidelines, and we spent a long time with the HECAT standards, which are the health curriculum standards. We know that teachers are trying to match up what they’re teaching to the federal standards and the state standards. Because every state has their own discussion of this, and they write their own rules. Usually they look like the federal standards, but we find with food and nutrition, sometimes they go off. You’ll get somebody on the committee who hates soda, and will write 10 rules around soda. So every state has their own idiosyncratic rules around it as well.VirginiaI mean, on the flip side, that means there have been opportunities for advocacy. For example in Maryland, Sarah Ganginis was able to make real progress on her state standards. But yes, the downside is you’re gonna have the anti-soda committee showing up.DeniseTotally. And half of the country. We really tried to hit the big standards. I’m actually thumbing through the curriculum right now. We have two pages of the HECAT model food nutrition lessons and which ones this curriculum hits. And then if you’re interested in talking about some of the others — like some of them really want to talk about specifically sugary drinks— we give links in the curriculum to discussions that we agree with. So we may mention sugary drinks in a little piece of the curriculum, but if you want to get the article or the discussion on it that frames it the way we’d like to see it framed, we’ve got links in the curriculum for that.VirginiaSo tell me about the response so far. What are you hearing from teachers and districts?DeniseThe biggest response I’m getting is, “It’s a breath of fresh air.” It’s safe, as you say. And for the teachers out there that are familiar with all of the things that we’ve been teaching that haven’t been working, this is important. And I just want to say to all the health teachers who have been teaching nutrition out there because this is the way we’ve taught it for years: This is how it’s been done. But when you know better, you do better. And that’s the point we’re at now. I know people have been weighing and measuring kids and telling them to count calories for decades because that was best practices at the time. But we’re beyond that. The research has figured out that that’s not the best practices going forward.VirginiaThat’s right.DeniseWe had about 50 teachers and 250 students trial it. We get the experts to say everything we want to say in the curriculum, and we put it in there, and then let’s say that takes nine months. We have another nine months where we have expert teachers like Sarah weighing in on the curriculum. Telling us what happens when she teaches it in class with her and the students. What would you like to see different? Even down to activities. How would this activity work better? So we spent another nine months making sure that the teachers and the students like it, can relate to it, and that the activities are what are working in class.So that’s an extra step after some of the other research curriculum that we really want to make sure it’s user friendly and the students like it. We got a lot of feedback. We did two rounds of that.Now we released it to the public after we had a masters student write a thesis on all of the the data we collected, and felt very comfortable that it does no harm.VirginiaIt’s been tested.DeniseYeah, it’s been tested. It’s feasible and acceptable. Now we’re going to go and do the official feasibility and acceptability tests, like we’ve done on BodyKind with Let’s Eat and then take it to schools. We use the University of North Carolina’s IRB. We use the Mind Body Lab there, run by Dr. Jennifer Webb, and we are going to be doing research on Let’s Eat. We’ve got the Portland Public Schools, and then we’ve got a school district in Maryland, in Arundel County, that we’ve identified and that we’re working with to test students. And then, we’ll hopefully do an official test, write an official paper, as we’ve done with BodyKind.VirginiaAnd I should also mention, you’re making this resource free! Schools don’t have to pay for this, which I think everyone who’s ever tried to make any change in the school district of any kind knows, if it costs money, it’s harder to get done. So that’s great. DeniseYou know, it’s so funny. I’ve been speaking on this for years. I mean, we’ve been in curriculum development for five years, and I always forget to say that! I don’t know why. It’s a free curriculum! I’m a nonprofit. I’ve never been paid. This is such a passion project for me, and I continue to wake up every day energized by the work I’m doing.And the mission of our nonprofit is to get the best, well tested resources out to schools. And we want to remove barriers. And how we remove barriers is offering it for free.VirginiaA lot of our listeners are parents. They’re going to be listening to this thinking, “Okay, I want this in my kid’s school.” How do we do that? What do you recommend parents do? DeniseSo a couple things. We find the best advocate is the person at the school, the wellness professional, charged with curriculum decisions. So there are people in your district whose job it is to make sure that the teachers have the latest and greatest curriculum on nutrition.And they want these resources because they want to make sure that their students get the best resources out there. So it takes a little bit of sleuthing to call up the school, whether it’s the administrator or a health teacher, and figure out who’s that person, who’s the wellness coordinator. It could be a wellness coordinator. It could be a health teacher, who’s responsible for curriculum. Find that person and talk to them. They’re looking for this conversation. It’s part of their job. You could even say I heard about this new curriculum. It’s available for free. And you can hand them the postcard. That’s what I hand out when I speak at conferences. And it’s got a QR code. It describes what this curriculum does. We teach tuned in eating. It describes what tuned in eating does. VirginiaDownload that PDF below to QR code it right from this episode! DeniseYes. So you can send them as a PDF. You can write an email, figure out who the person is, send them the curriculum. Say “I was listening to a podcast, and there’s this great curriculum out there. I’d love you to check it out.”VirginiaI think that feels really doable, it’s a great starting point. What about when a kid comes home and tells a parent “Oh, we did calorie counting today?” Because that’s often how parents start to think about this issue. It kind of lands on their lap. Is it useful to engage directly with the teacher? How do you think about that piece of it? Because obviously, especially the school year is underway, asking a teacher like, hey, can you just change your whole curriculum right on a dime, they probably won’t appreciate that. So, what’s a, better way to think about this advocacy?DeniseI thought you did a great job in your book Fat Talk on giving them scripts, giving parents scripts to walk into the school. You want to be sensitive to how overloaded the health teacher is, the nutrition teacher is. They’re teaching 10 subjects in health that they need to be experts on so, you know, this is just one piece of what they’re teaching.The great thing about nutrition is, most health teachers are teaching nutrition so they’ve got some background in it, and you can just be as sensitive as possible to their time and do as you say in the book, you know, in a in a positive, collaborative way. “I heard about this research, I thought you might be interested,” rather than a critical way. And and again, your kid might not be taking health, they might just be in the school district. So maybe you have this discussion with an administrator, and ask them, who wants to talk to me about this? And ask them, who can I speak to? It could be a guidance counselor. Could be school social worker. You know, this is eating disorder and body dissatisfaction prevention, right? So who, who is interested in this topic?VirginiaWho in the district is working on that and wants to know about this? That’s super helpful.And I’ll also add: One thing I learned in reporting the book and thinking more about the school issue is we do, as parents, always have the right to opt our kids out of the assignments that we know to be harmful. So if you see a calorie counting assignment coming, you can ask for an alternative assignment. You can accept that your kid might get a lower grade because they don’t do it, but that might feel fair.Especially with older kids, I think it’s important to involve them. Like, don’t just swoop in. Never a good idea. They may want to talk to the teacher or you have do it. Work that out with your kid and figure out the best way forward. But I think it’s definitely worth doing that. If your kid’s like, no, don’t talk to the teacher. No, I’m not opting out. You can still have the conversation at home about why this assignment is not aligned with your values, and that’s yes important to do, too.The Burnt Toast Guide to Diet Culture in SchoolsDeniseI also wanted to say, we have an ambassador program at Be Real, and we have 135 ambassadors. What we’ve done with all of the materials we’ve been using for 10 years, which are presentations and worksheets for the presentations. We have frequently asked questions, where I quote you all the time. What do I do with my mother in law, who’s saying this thing? We give them scripts. What do I do when people equate body size with health? What do we do when people assume that everyone could be small if they tried hard enough? We have answers for all of these questions in our materials, frequently asked questions.I have templated the presentations I give. I use the notes, I give the talk track, so my ambassadors can give a talk with a teleprompter if they’re doing it on Zoom. Use the presentation as a teleprompter, and all the accompanying material we have on Canva that the ambassadors can create their own and add to it, and use their own name and picture to give talks and and things like that. We’ve got all of this so people are able to take this resource to their own local area,VirginiaSo they might give this talk to a PTA or a church group or any kind of community organization they’re affiliated with.DeniseAbsolutely. And we’ve been doing this for about seven years, and the last five years, it’s grown tremendously, and we have meetings every quarter. And at the meetings, people say, how do I get into my local school? And someone else will say, you know, I tried the principal and they didn’t answer my phone calls. And then I went and looked up so and so and and then I started out doing this for professional development for health teachers in the state of Illinois. So we also have ways to to be certified as a professional development trainer on this topic. So that’s how I initially got to health teachers. And then they also speak at conferences. So I speak at National SHAPE, which is the health teacher conference, but there are state SHAPE conferences out there that my Ambassadors will go speak at and it’s really how to get all of this material, another way to get it disseminated all throughout the world.VirginiaOh, I love that. Well, we will definitely link in the show notes for anyone who’s interested in becoming about an ambassador. ButterDeniseI am obsessed with Orna Guralnik, she is a psychotherapist who has a show on Showtime called Couples Therapy.VirginiaYes, I’ve been hearing about this.DeniseOh my God, it is so good. I don’t know why I like it so much, but I just binge watched the new season. And I say every time, I’ve got to string it out and enjoy it, but no, it’s impossible. And so I just binge watched the whole season, and as I was preparing for this interview, I just kept Googling what podcast she’s been on.VirginiaThat’s so satisfying. I love when you get a really good rabbit hole to dive down with the show. Another podcast I really enjoy, called Dire Straights , hosted by two writers, Amanda Montei and Tracy Clark-Flory, they just did an episode looking at the history of couples therapy and it actually has a pretty problematic history. Was not always great for women, very much developed as a way to help husbands control unruly wives—but has become other things. But you would enjoy that episode because they talk quite a bit about the show couples therapy and, she’s obviously doing something quite different.DeniseOkay, that’s my next one. Definitely going out and getting that.VirginiaI will also do a TV show butter, because they are so satisfying. I just started watching with my middle schooler a show that’s been off the air for a few years now. It’s called it’s Better Things, starring Pamela Adlon and created by her. It’s about a divorced mom with three daughters. She’s a working actor in LA but it’s just like about their life. It’s very funny. It’s very real and kind of gritty. My middle schooler and I have watched a lot of sitcoms together, and this is definitely a more adult show than we’ve watched before. But it’s still a family show, and it’s just, it’s so so good. It’s just a really incredible authentic portrayal of mothers and daughters. Which, you know, being a mother and a daughter, sometimes I’m like, is this making you like me more? Is this making you appreciate me? Probably not.DeniseHaving raised three kids, I don’t aspire to that anymore.VirginiaNot the goal, not the goal.DeniseJust never going to show up.VirginiaBut it is really sweet bonding in a way that I hadn’t expected. So that is my recommendation.DeniseLovely, lovely, lovely.VirginiaAll right, Denise. Tell folks again, just in case anyone missed it. Where do we find you? Where do we find the curriculums? How do we support your work?DeniseCome to berealusa.org—that’s our website. We have more information on everything I’ve mentioned, on all of the curriculum, on how to become an ambassador, and just more explanation. On the website, we have fact sheets on everything we do. So if you go in, I think on the homepage, you drop down, they’ll say fact sheets. And we also have probably have 10 fact sheets that will give you more information on this. We also talk about why you shouldn’t be taking BMI school. We had a “don’t weigh me in school” campaign about five years ago that kind of went viral. So anyway, that’s all good on our website.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for your September Indulgence Gospel!It’s time for a mailbag episode, so we’ll be diving into your questions about:⭐️ How to clap back when people say, “Wow, you’ve changed!” ⭐️ What to do with ageist grandparents? (We’re surprisingly…Team Grandparent on this one?)⭐️ Why it’s so hard to like photos of ourselves!!! ⭐️ Is Back To School (the hype, the myth, the culture)…a diet? And so much more!To hear the full story, you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber.This episode contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is a great way to support Burnt Toast!Episode 210 TranscriptVirginiaCorinne, how are you? What’s going on?CorinneI’m doing good. It’s really nice and cool here, and I’m so happy. It’s like 68.VirginiaIt’s really nice and cool here, too. Listeners of the future: We are recording this in July to be ahead of the game, but it is very September weather, and it’s helping me get in the September mindset for doing this episode.Well and because it’s cooler, I do have some Pants Chat for us to get into. I’m wearing a new pair of pants from Imbodhi, which is the brand that makes that jumpsuit I’m obsessed with. They are called the Sora Wide Leg Pant, and they are basically, like the pants version of the jumpsuit. They have a fold-down waist, and they’re very stretchy, and they are just the most comfortable thing. But I am unclear if I am wearing pants or pajamas?CorinneI’m looking at their website. I don’t know anything about this brand. It looks very similar to Beyond Yoga.VirginiaIt’s very similar to Beyond Yoga. It’s a great brand (and I have a $15 off coupon for listeners!). The quality is really good. But they go up to only 3x. I’m wearing the 1X so I think it’s a legit 3X but, yeah. There are bigger sizes they could be making, and they’ve chosen not to, at this point in time. So this is the Sora Wide-Legged Pants in ribbed oatmeal. They’re the most comfortable thing. But do you see what I mean? They definitely have that “is it pants, or is it pajamas” vibe?CorinneThey’re soft pants.VirginiaAnd I think because they’re wide leg soft pants, they feel more pajama to me. Maybe I’m good with that? Maybe I’m in my pajama pants era?CorinneThat seems reasonable.VirginiaWell, that’s my pants news.CorinneThat’s great pants news.VirginiaLet’s jump into questions.CorinneYes, I will ask the first question.Doesn’t back to school kind of seem like a diet? There are the first day of school photos, the perfect bento box lunches, the school supplies, etc.VirginiaI mean, absolutely. Absolutely, it’s all a diet.CorinneNeed we say more?VirginiaIt is a diet, and it’s a diet I go on every year. We do first day of school photos. My kid’s dad does a letterboard sign with a clever pun about what grade they’re going into. My kids sort of hate the tradition, but now sort of love it. And we’re doing it. We’re locked in. We’ve got to have all 12 years of photos.CorinneBut what’s the diet element? That it has to be perfect?VirginiaWell, when I think about my most diety years of Back To School culture, it was the years, especially, when my kids were starting a new school. If they were starting kindergarten, or other transition years, where stress is really, really high. You’re going through a lot of feelings, and as the parent, you’re like, what can I control? I can have an adorable, monogrammed backpack that must be sourced! I can control that we have the right lunchbox and this and that.You can just get so hyper about needing all the details. You need a good first day of school outfit. The teachers send these incredibly detailed school supply lists, and you’re in the aisle at Staples trying to kill yourself to find the right kind of pens. You can just be really extra with it, and it can feel like if you get it wrong, you’re sabotaging your child’s happiness. The stakes are really high. And so there are a lot of diet-y elements, for sure.Here’s what’s helping me divest:Number one, my children pick their own clothes.I have not had input on the clothes that go on my children’s bodies since they were probably three or four years old at the most. So there’s no first day outfit anymore. Whatever they want to wear is the first day outfit. So that’s one thing. I’m no longer like, “I need adorable dresses!!” My kids don’t even like to wear dresses. So, done.Number two, the drugstore in our town does this great thing where they get all the school supply lists from our kids schools. And if you just tell them your kid’s name and the teacher they have for the next year, they will just bag up all the supplies and you just pay and pick them up.CorinneThat’s amazing.VirginiaAnd so I just handed this whole project off to my kid’s dad. I was like, “You’re on school supplies. You do the drug store thing every year.” I don’t think about it anymore, and it does mean you don’t get to sit there and pick out which color folders you want. And as someone who loved school supply shopping myself, that is a little hard for me! But that’s why I was like, I have to just remove myself completely. So I just try to step back from as much of it as I can.What do you see with your friends kids? Do you notice any back to school feelings?CorinneTo be honest, I haven’t. But most of my friends’ kids are in what I would consider barely school. So it hasn’t hit yet. I do remember, as a kid, wanting to school shop and and also wanting a first day outfit.VirginiaIt’s very similar to New Year’s resolution culture. You can be like, “This is the year everything’s going to be perfect!” This is the year that all these things are going to go well. And we all know we’re gonna be crying by October. It is what it is.So you can go in with a lot of a lot of energy that can be misdirected. But also: If it helps you get through the stress of that first day to pack a really good lunch for your kid, great. Do it. I think the potential for harm is when you’re being so obsessive about getting that photo that your kid is really unhappy. It’s worth asking: Will getting this detail right make your child’s day smoother? Then fine. If it’s creating more work and drama for everyone, maybe time to step back.CorinneIf your kid wants to have a special outfit and stuff, fine. And how can you make it not into a diet for them?VirginiaYes. I think especially as kids get older, they can bring this energy as well. I definitely did as a kid. I was very extra about my first day of school outfits and all of that. I would like plan the whole first week and be really manic about it.CorinneThis is so not surprising.Virginia.In a surprise to no one, Virginia was herself.So I guess my point is: This is all optional, and a lot of it is capitalism, not education.CorinneGreat point.VirginiaI’ll read the next question.On vacation, I noticed that I am struggling with photos of myself, and it feels like the final frontier of my body liberation. I guess the question is, have either of you struggled with this? And any suggestions for coping and shifting it? I admire all the fat bodies on my socials and think they look amazing and feel pretty good in my body, and think I look good in the mirror. So why am I so uncomfortable with the photos. It just feels like it’s not how I look in my head or in the mirror. Photographs are different, obviously, than real life. But it surprises me how jarring they can feel.CorinneI feel like there are a million ways to answer this question, but I will just start with this. Have you ever seen a bad photo of a hot person?VirginiaOooh.CorinneLike, yeah. Obviously you have. There are horrible paparazzi photos of everybody, of America’s hottest people.VirginiaEvery beautiful person can take a bad photo. Yes, yes, yes.CorinneYou’re pulling one second out of the movie of your life, or whatever. Obviously, there are going to be weird, bad photos.VirginiaI also really love that meme that surfaces periodically reminding us that it is impossible to take a good photo of the moon. And we think the moon is beautiful. Sunsets, also very hard to photograph well.CorinneSo true.VirginiaEven in my garden, there are things that are prettier in real life than I can capture in a photo. You just can’t get the depth or the angle.CorinneColors!VirginiaThe colors don’t translate. There are so many beautiful things that look better in real life than in photos. And that may include you. It certainly includes me.But I do absolutely struggle with this. I deeply related to this question. One thing that helps me is to remember that I have been very thrown by photos of myself throughout my whole life. There was no period in my life where I regularly saw photos and thought, “That looks exactly like me and I look amazing.” Like, even when I was thin, I would nitpick photos. And I now frequently do that thing where I look back at an old photo and think, oh my God. What was I worried about? Like, this is absurd. And so I can only assume that would continue to happen. Feelings I have about photos I take now, at age 44 when I’m 54 or 70 I’m going to be like, what was I worried about?CorinneI think also: Have you ever had a conversation about this with a friend where they’re like, oh, I hate this photo of myself, and you’re like, “What?”VirginiaWhat are you even seeing?CorinneYeah, it’s maybe not the best photo. And also, whatever.VirginiaThere are also all the ways that technology messes with this. Like, right now, we’re looking at each other on Zoom, and Zoom is mirroring my face at me, which is how I see myself in the mirror. So I look right to me. But if you’ve ever gone into Zoom and had it be not mirrored, you’re like, who the hell is that person? But that’s how everyone else sees your face all the time! That’s actually your face! So a lot of this is, we just don’t know what we look like, the photo both isn’t capturing you and it’s capturing you in a way that you never see yourself, so it’s super disorienting.CorinneYeah, I agree. It’s a certain amount of acceptance, just practicing acceptance of bad photos. And consider, what would you say to your friend about it?VirginiaIt’s also maybe useful to know that you’re going to have this reaction. Just plan for it and be able to say, like, I am uncomfortable with myself in photos. Like, that’s something to work on, and that’s something you can overcome, but it can also just be a true statement right now, and you still had a great vacation. It’s still nice to have the memories of the vacation. If you have kids, yes, be in the photo with your kids. You are going to be really glad you have those at some point in your life. Be in the photo with your loved ones. There’s this whole problem with moms erasing themselves from the family memories, because we take all the photos, and nobody ever takes photos of us. And that’s terrible.So I think it’s it’s fine to know it makes you uncomfortable, and it’s probably worth forcing it to happen anyway.CorinneIt’s also fine to take photos and not look at them.VirginiaDo you think that now that we take a lot of photos of ourselves for our jobs, does it make photos easier for you?CorinneI’m someone who has always taken a lot of photos of myself.VirginiaYes, your Instagram handle is Selfie Fay.CorinneSince like, high school, if not earlier. And I do find that exposure kind of helps, and I do think it kind of helps you with that mindset of just like, well, it’s just one photo. There are photos of myself I like and photos of myself I don’t like.VirginiaYep, agreed.CorinneAnd I still have a reaction sometimes where I see a photo of myself and I’m like, ughhhh.VirginiaBut it feels like it’s less weighted, because it’s not like twice a year you’re seeing photos of yourself on vacations and holidays.CorinneYeah. It’s less jarring.VirginiaAlso, I don’t know who took the photos, but a lot of people are bad at taking photos. Really bad at it. Even people who think they’re good at it, or have nice cameras or fancy phones or whatever. It is a skill. There is a reason people are paid photographers. And so if you don’t like the photo, it’s also worth remembering that the person who took it probably didn’t think about lighting or composition or any of the elements that make a photo that your brain would be like, oh, that’s nice.CorinneYeah, I’ve definitely had the experience where I ask someone to take a photo of me, and then they’re like, kneeling down on the ground. I’m like, “What are you doing? That’s not the angle!”VirginiaAnd then you’re like, I really want to ask them to take it again and tell them how to do it, but I feel like that’s rude, so I shouldn’t, but…CorinneI’ve never been like, I want them to do it again. But I have definitely been like, well, that was kind of a waste.VirginiaIf there are photos you like of yourself, maybe it’s also worth thinking about what is it about those pictures that you like. This is maybe a little bit of beauty culture mindset. But if you like photos of yourself better with your hair down or your hair up, maybe make a point to put your hair up or down, whichever it is before you take the photo, because it’ll just remove a layer of stress. I think that’s harm reduction. It is obviously a beauty standard, but maybe checking that box makes the experience less stressful.CorinneOk, I will read the next question.I would love some suggestions for navigating fatphobia while pregnant and nursing. I’m currently four months pregnant, and the sheer amount of fatphobia and diet culture I’ve been subjected to is mind boggling.My provider has so far not brought up my weight, although I have been weighed at every appointment. But all of the materials and guidance I’ve gotten from them has been related to not eating too much, not eating, quote, empty calories, exercising regularly. And then on top of that is the breastfeeding propaganda about how it will help you lose the baby weight and how breastfeeding prevents obesity. Navigating all of this on top of my own feelings about rapid body changes and an unprecedented level of body surveillance from family is a lot!This episode will be coming out after I get back from visiting some very diet culture family. So I’ll definitely be in need of some Burnt Toast counter programming.VirginiaAll right, we got you! Good job surviving the family visit. We’re back now. Let’s get into it.CorinneAre you okay?VirginiaDo you need a hug? Do you need a cookie? We are here.Oh, it’s so hard, like you’re not doing enough growing an actual human being with your body. You have to deal with all of this. It is so much! Pregnancy and postpartum are really, can be really challenging times for people’s relationships with their bodies, and all of this medical messaging and fearmongering does not help.I think it’s great your provider is not bringing up weight. And I would really laser focus in on that, and ignore all the materials and guidance. It is really possible to have a great pregnancy and never read a pamphlet about pregnancy. If your doctor is not saying to you, “this is super important for your health,” then who cares? You don’t have to be an A student and read all the pamphlets, or all the books or all the Instagram content about this.CorinneI have so much empathy for pregnant people. I just know that I would really hate the body surveillance stuff. I feel like that is out of control and something you kind of can’t do anything about. Even if you tell people, “I don’t want to hear it,” they’re not going to stop.VirginiaOr they’re still surveying you even if they’re not saying anything. If you’re with diet, culture-y family, you might have set the boundary around the conversation. And it also comes from total strangers, like you’re just in the grocery store, and people feel free to comment on your body. It’s horrendous.CorinneTotally. And also, I can only imagine how disorienting and horrible the body changes are to go through. You know, it’s a lot!VirginiaIt’s a lot, it’s a lot.I do want to mention that we had some folks chatting about this recently in the Burnt Toast chat. And there is now a WhatsApp group of Burnt Toasties who are all new parents postpartum, trying to navigate without diet culture. So that might be a great safe space for you to check out. And obviously, the more like minded people that go there, the better that chat will be.[Post-recording note: Just to clarify, we love that this WhatsApp group is happening, but Virginia and Corinne aren’t participating/it’s not an official form of BT content!]CorinneYeah, that’s awesome.VirginiaI do think this is a real find your people moment. And this person doesn’t say if it’s a first pregnancy or not, but I think especially in your first pregnancy, there’s a lot of forming bonds with people just because we’re all going through this life experience. But you really need to find people who are going through the life experience with the same values as you in order to really support one another.So that’s definitely something to think about, even if you can just identify one friend in your circle who’s a safe person on all of this, that you can, like, vent to and support each other when this noise gets loud. I’ll also link to some other stuff I’ve written on pregnancy over the years, because we revisit this pretty often.Why "Building a Healthy Baby" is Bullshit When The Pregnancy App Talks About "Belly-Only Weight Gain," We Have Work To Do"Is My Body Too Big To Be Pregnant?"We Need To Talk About Fat Fertility The Fat Mother NarrativeThe bottom line is sort of similar to the conversations we’re having about menopause right now. This is a huge life change. Your body is going through a lot. Your weight is the least interesting thing about it. And, you can have a totally healthy pregnancy and not be hyperfixated on weight or calories or any of these things. This is all optional. Breastfeeding is optional. It’s all optional. So, really feeling grounded in like, I get to choose what serves me right now, and I know from past experience, diet culture never serves me. So why would it serve me now when I’m doing something this difficult and life changing.CorinneIt does feel like one of those things where the diet culture is just so ingrained, it’s really hard to find an alternative.VirginiaIt’s really similar to the perimenopause stuff. Everyone who is a credible expert on this subject also suddenly has a supplement to sell you, and it’s so maddening.I will read the next one.Do you have any good clap backs for situations where people you haven’t seen in a long time make comments about how much you have changed? I would feel less anxious having some prepared sentences under my belt.CorinneOkay, I have two things to say about this. The first one is, I think if someone comes up to you and says, “Oh, wow, you’ve changed,” you should say, “Thank you.”VirginiaNice.CorinneYes, thank you.If you want something a little different, you could be like, “What do you mean?” And really make them spell it out. But that is going to be an exercise in tolerating some amount of discomfort if they want to tell you what they mean. I think you could also say, “Yes, I have changed, and I’m so much happier or healthier,” or whatever. Even if it’s a lie, just say it.VirginiaThis is definitely a situation where lying is strongly encouraged because this person is being obnoxious.CorinneAnd then I also just want to say: I do think this is kind of one of those social anxiety things that you’re going to worry a lot more about happening than it will actually happen. It’s just one of those things that’s a nightmare scenario in your head and probably won’t actually happen in real life.VirginiaOkay, yes, I think that’s completely true. But it is also true that people may be thinking things, and you’re aware of what they’re thinking. But —that’s a them problem, not a you problem.CorinneI'd love some help addressing how the grandparents are talking about aging with grandkids. While I've somehow managed to train the grandparents to not discuss bodies in terms of fat/thin/size/weight (yay!), they feel totally free to discuss how much they hate aging, wrinkling skin, botox and other body modification as it pertains to “fighting aging.” The increase in these topics definitely aligns with the celebrities around their age (and even younger) recently revealing totally new faces and necks (Kris Jenner, Ricki Lake, Lauren Sanchez, etc.). Somehow that seems to give them permission to bring the public discourse to my kids (it shouldn't).I actually had a really great conversation with my kids (who are under 10) about how kids expect their bodies to change while adults expect their bodies to stay the same, when the reality is that bodies change forever and that there should never be an expectation of sameness. And my kids were like, duh. I'm growing, I'm going to hit puberty, I'm going to be an adult, and then I'm going to shrink (they mean in height, which made me lol). And I was like, 'well, there are many years between growing and shrinking, and in those years, your body still continues to change! That's what bodies do. But adults forget and then they get upset.'This conversation was great with the kids, but the grandparents absolutely couldn't handle 'another topic they can't talk about with my kids. Thoughts?VirginiaI think you handled it perfectly, and all that really matters is that you can discuss this with your kids, which you can. So I wouldn’t even attempt to put any guardrails around the grandparents on this.CorinneI agree that it does seem weird that your parents are talking to your kids about both their feelings about Botox. And I agree that asking them to stop is probably not going to work and just create a bunch of tension.VirginiaThe grandparents are the ones grappling with this. It feels like a time where we kind of need to check our own age privilege? I don’t know how I’m going to feel about all that stuff when I’m in my 60s and 70s. It’s going to feel harder than it feels right now, in various ways, I’m sure. Maybe also easier, I don’t know. But the point is, I haven’t lived through that. Your parents are talking from their lived experience. You don’t have to agree with their choices. You can have your own take on this. Obviously, I agree with you that bodies grow and change, and that’s something we should be embracing, but I think you can just reframe it with your kids and kind of let it wash over you when it comes from the parents, because it’s their stuff. It’s not your stuff.CorinneBut sometimes I wonder, in this situation where you’re like, “I don’t want my kids to hear that,” is it actually bothering you and you want to say something to them about it, but you don’t know how to do that?VirginiaBecause your kids sound fine. They were like, “yeah, Grandma talked about Botox. That’s weird. Anyway.” I don’t think they were internalizing it. And I think this is so common, when people are like, “What do I do about my mom talking to my kids?” Often the kids are fine, because what a grandparent says to them doesn’t have the same impact as what your mom says to you. So I think this is one of those moments.And if you want to set boundaries around that, I think you can find ways to be like, “I’m not really here for an age bashing conversation today,” or “I think you look great anyway.” You can set up some boundaries.But I kind of don’t blame the grandparents for being like, “Stop giving me a list of things I can’t talk to your kids about.” It is a little micro managing. I get it. And I do feel like when people are talking about their own stuff, that’s really different from if a grandparent was directly criticizing how your child eats or your child’s body, that’s where you have to intervene. If a grandparent is like “no more pasta for your kid, she’s getting fat,” that’s where you have to jump in and set boundaries and protect your kid.But if the grandma is not eating pasta—CorinneTheir body, their choice.VirginiaAnd you can keep reframing with your kids why you are not making that same choice.CorinneIf it’s bothering you, I think sometimes a nice approach is just to be like, hey, when you talk about this, I feel X way. Like it gives me anxiety when you’re talking about having Botox, like I’m not quite there yet and it freaks me out.VirginiaYeah, just let them know you’re not the audience for this. I hope they have other people in their lives who want to talk about Botox.All right. Next question.Are shows like Too Much and Survival of the Thickest normalizing dating plus size women for heterosexual men? I hope so!CorinneYou would have to ask the heterosexual men.VirginiaAre heterosexual men watching Too Much and Survival of the Thickest?CorinneGreat question.VirginiaI do not think those shows have a strong, cis, straight man audience. I think they’re watched by women and gay men.CorinneI also feel like, I mean, are they normalizing it on television? Maybe. I also think, in real life, men dating plus size women is normal.VirginiaThat’s what I was going to say. I don’t think the men are watching these shows. I also don’t think we actually have to normalize this. I think it’s normalized. I go back to the Kate Manne interview where she talked about how it’s a number one porn search term. Straight men are attracted to fat women. They just are. And of course, there’s a lot of noise around that, and there are some men who are not or who are assholes about it. Absolutely true. But it’s not all men. That makes me sound like an apologist for men, and I’m uncomfortable with it. But I actually think it’s more normal than you think it is for straight men to be attracted to fat women."You Cannot Fight Misogyny Without Fighting Fatphobia."But what I think these shows are doing is normalizing four plus size women that we can see ourselves as attractive. They’re helping us get over it. Or I think they can be helpful for helping us get over it.CorinneAnd I think they’re definitely normalizing it being on TV. And, I do like to see that on TV.VirginiaI think that’s really important, and we need more of it. I mean, this idea that straight men are only attracted to thin women is a figment of Hollywood’s imagination. It’s a figment of diet cultures imagination. It’s not what’s actually happening. So more representation of reality is very useful. Plus, they’re both fairly fun shows.CorinneThe next one is a gardening question for you.We planted a bunch of stuff this year. I was all organized and have a cute, color coded map and everything. Now, how do I keep track of what needs to be pruned back in the fall or left over winter? Do I need a spreadsheet, or am I overthinking it?VirginiaWow, this is a person after my own heart. And also I will link to the piece I wrote about divesting perfectionism in the garden. You don’t need a spreadsheet.Divesting from Garden PerfectionismI do keep lists of things I plant every year because it’s helpful to know what you’ve planted. And I have used a spreadsheet when mapping out what to put in raised beds. Sometimes I just draw it, like plot it out, how you’re gonna plant things. And so I understand the need to do this. But no, I don’t think you need to keep a spreadsheet of what needs to be pruned back in the fall or left over winter.The answer is much simpler. Almost everything can be left over the winter. It’s actually great to leave most of your perennials standing. They will form seed pods. There will be dry stalks, but that creates actually a lot of habitat. There are a lot of overwintering bees that like to nest in the stems of perennial plants. There are a lot of little critters that like to live in the leaf litter, and the seed pods get eaten by birds over the winter. So leaving your garden standing, even if it looks a mess is a very environmentally friendly thing to do.I tidy up a little more out front and then leave the back for the birds and the bees. if you live in a neighborhood where that feels like your neighbors might be judgey or whatever.Otherwise, the only things I cut back personally in the fall are peonies and hostas, because both of their foliage can harbor disease if they’re left to get wet and slimy. So those I cut back. But definitely all natives I leave standing. Pretty much everything else I leave standing.CorinneWhen do you cut it back?VirginiaI cut it back in the spring after we’ve had about a week of 50 degree days or higher, because that’s when everything warms up and the hibernating bees come out and everybody’s like, okay, I’m good, I’m good, I’m safe. And then you can cut it back. So yeah, that’s the answer. You don’t need a spreadsheet. Leave basically everything except for your peonies and hostas.Shrubs are a little bit of a different question. There are some shrubs that are better to be pruned in the fall and some that are better to be pruned in the spring. I would, if you have tons of different kinds of shrubs, maybe you would need a spreadsheet to keep track of that. But if you’ve planted a couple of shrubs just look up those specific things. And it is shrubs specific, so I’m not going to get into it. But yeah, just look up your shrubs, see when they best need to be pruned. Maybe keep track of that. And other than that, leave everything.CorinneHmm, cool. I do like the I like the idea of a spreadsheet personally, but just because I’m very forgetful.VirginiaWell, I could see it being helpful for the shrubs, definitely. Like, I’m just thinking around my own yard. And it’s like, lilacs you have to prune immediately after they flowers so you don’t destroy next year’s buds.CorinneI’m already too late.VirginiaYes, you are. Some hydrangeas you prune in the fall, and some hydrangeas, you can’t prune until the spring. And blueberries need to be pruned in the winter. Shrubs are weird. They all have their own ideal times to be pruned, related to preserving next year’s flowers. So it could be helpful to have a spreadsheet. Now, I’m like, okay, yeah, I want a shrub spreadsheet.But you don’t need everything else. And the color coded map. The only reason I’m laughing at that a little bit is once you’re a few years into gardening, you will learn that plants don’t always stay where you put them. They get bigger. Sometimes they seed themselves in new locations. A lot of things often don’t survive the winter that and then you have a hole. Every year the map looks a little different. So don’t feel like you have to have it all nailed down. That’s the perfectionism thing. Gardening is not interior design. It’s not making a quilt. You’re not nailing things into space.All right, our last question is a very delightful, whimsical one.If you could turn into an animal, what animal would it be, and why?CorinneI’m having a very hard time settling on one. First, I thought, a horse. I don’t know, seems fun.Then I was like, okay, maybe a whale?? Also seems fun to be swimming around. And then I was also like, I feel like my dog has a pretty nice life. Like, a dog in a cushy home environment where you can just kind of nap all day and get fed treats.VirginiaI went to cat for the same reason, but even more so, because I think as an introvert, I’m more suited to cat life because cats can also be like, Fuck you, I’m out of here.CorinneSo true.VirginiaWhereas dogs have that need to be with you all the time, and I think I would personally start to chafe against that.CorinneI think if I were a cat, I’d want to be an outdoor cat, though.VirginiaNo, you don’t live very long.CorinneSeems fun to hunt birds?VirginiaI know, but also they’re really hurting the bird population. I’m going to get a text from my mom if I don’t say that. So no outdoor cats. They’re bad for the birds.CorinneOkay, my bad.VirginiaI think I would want to be an indoor cat. And I was also thinking about sea creatures. Octopus seems cool.CorinneThat does seem cool. Seems pretty great. Wow.VirginiaOh. And then my final choice would be elephant, because I adore elephants. They’re amazing.ButterCorinneI don’t have a Butter. What’s yourButter?VirginiaWe’ve failed at Butter?! Well, I have a Butter but if you think it’s too diet-y, tell me, and I’ll pick a different Butter.My Butter this week is one minute planks. I’m doing a one minute plank every day. I worked up to one long plank. I should say. I started at 20 seconds. I’ve worked up to a minute.CorinneYeah, all right.VirginiaAnd by that I mean yesterday and today I did one minute. Before that, I was doing 20 seconds and then 30 and then 45. The reason I’m doing this is we have a crazy schedule this week. I don’t have time to actually do a workout, even, like, a 15 minute workout. Like, it’s just not happening. And I was getting stressed about it, because my back hurts more when I don’t work out and I don’t need to deal with my back hurting.CorinneI thought you were going to say, because mental illness.VirginiaI mean also that. So many reasons that I need to get a workout in. But specifically for me, working out is primarily about managing back pain. And then I was like, I can also do five minutes—not even, three minutes—of hip stretches and a one minute plank. And then my back doesn’t hurt. For today anyway. And that is my Butter! Figuring out the shortest possible way to be like, yes, I moved my body a little bit today, despite the fact I also drove children to 47 locations and had no time to work and everything is a little chaotic.CorinneI think that’s a good Butter.VirginiaObviously you don’t have to do planks if you don’t like them. I didn’t like them for a long time. Yours could be something totally different, but I’m weirdly into it, and I might be setting a goal of learning to do push ups? Casual just maybe, maybe, maybe I’m thinking about learning to do push ups.CorinneI love that!VirginiaWhich I can’t do.CorinneDid something influence that?VirginiaWell, I do a lot of weight lifting videos, and there’s often a push up portion that I can’t do. I can do them against a counter, but I can’t do them on the floor. And it’s just been one of those things. My whole life, I’ve always been like, “I can’t do push ups.” Like I can’t get back up, and it feels like I should be able to. Or maybe it’s learnable, and maybe I want to spend some small amount of time seeing if I can learn it.CorinneCool. Can you do them on your knees?VirginiaYeah, I can do them on my knees. But I’ve never progressed. I’ve been at this level of modified push up forever, and I’m just like, what would it take to cross over? Not because I want to be a Navy Seal or anything. You know, I’m not going to do the push ups where they clap in the middle or whatever, but it feels like a mountain I could climb. And by which I mean, like, this feels like it should be an achievable goal.CorinneYeah, I think it’s definitely an achievable goal.VirginiaI don’t know. Do you like push ups? Are you a push up person?CorinneNo, I’m not a push up person. But I do think there’s something fun sometimes about having an exercise goal that feels fun for you. And obviously you’re not going to go down a hole if you don’t get there.VirginiaIt’s something to do just for the sake of doing that thing. There’s no other agenda attached. I’m just like, oh, I can’t do a push up. I wonder if I could learn to do a push up. I don’t know! So we’ll see where it goes.CorinneI think it might be less of a learning thing and more of a building strength thing.VirginiaI do feel like there’s a part of my brain that doesn’t understand it, though. I can go down and I just can’t get back up.CorinneBut I think that’s strength, not your brain. It’s that those muscles aren’t strong enough.VirginiaBut, I can’t even figure out which muscles I want to activate? Like, I just get down there and I’m like, what would it be? Is it my arms? Is it my core? I don’t know. How do people do this?CorinneMaybe ask Anna Maltby.VirginiaAnna Maltby, I need you!CorinneThis will be an interesting one to check back in on.VirginiaOkay, let’s see if I forgot all about it days after we recorded this, or if I am suddenly a push up queen, stay tuned.[Post-recording note: Virginia has done no further push-ups! But it could still happen…some day!]CorinneI’m going recommend something very basic, but I want to recommend Baggu bags. I don’t really carry a purse if I’m going somewhere. I usually just claw my phone, my wallet, and my keys in one hand. I feel like there are a lot of memes about girls holding stuff. Then recently I was like, why don’t I just throw all this into a Baggu and carry that around instead?VirginiaSo you discovered…the concept of a purse?CorinneYeah, but not a permanent purse. Like, I take it back out and I’ll use different ones at different times.VirginiaYou’re talking about the reusable shopping bag style, yeah?CorinneYeah. I can sometimes still claw all my stuff and then sometimes have it in a little bag. But, yeah, I just think they’re great bags. And people are always like, wow, that’s such a cute bag. They’re really cute. Right now, I have some of the vegetable and fruit ones. I have like a melon one and a radish one.VirginiaI have the strawberry one, and I love it.CorinneI have the strawberry one as well, so cute. They’re just very convenient, very lightweight, cute, colorful. So I’m recommending Baggu bags.VirginiaI just ordered for my middle schoolers birthday—she’s a big horse kid and they have a new horse print. So I just got her one for, like, I don’t know what she’ll use it for, but. And I got her the little horse charm. Did you see that?CorinneI got a text from them about it. I was like, I need to send this to Virginia.VirginiaAnd then you’re like, she gets the text as well. They really have transformed my actually remembering bags at the grocery store because they fold up so small that I can actually have them. I just remember to have them with me in a way that I never did, bulky bags.CorinneBecause then also, if I’m carrying my wallet, etc, in one and then I’m stopping at the store, then I just dump the stuff out and use it. It’s very convenient.VirginiaYeah, you’re there. You’re already ready to use. They’re so well done. And I love the zipper pouches. Sorry, this is now becoming a whole Baggu ad. But you know what, guys, if you’re not on that train with us, you should get on it. They’re great.

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! Today, my guest is Mara Gordon, MD.Dr. Mara is a family physician on the faculty of Cooper Medical School of Rowan University, as well as a writer, journalist and contributor to NPR. She also writes the newsletter Your Doctor Friend by Mara Gordon about her efforts to make medicine more fat friendly.Dr. Mara is back today with Part 2 of our conversation about weight, health, perimenopause and menopause! As we discussed last time, finding menopause advice that doesn’t come with a side of diet culture is really difficult. Dr Mara is here to help, and she will not sell you a supplement sign or make you wear a weighted vest.This episode is free but if you value this conversation, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription. Burnt Toast is 100% reader- and listener-supported. We literally can’t do this without you.PS. You can always listen to this pod right here in your email, where you’ll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and/or Pocket Casts! And if you enjoy today’s conversation, please tap the heart on this post — likes are one of the biggest drivers of traffic from Substack’s Notes, so that’s a super easy, free way to support the show!And don’t miss these: Dr. Mara Will Not Sell You a Weighted VestHealthcare is Ground Zero for FatphobiaIs Dr. Mary Claire Haver Making MenopauseEpisode 209 TranscriptVirginiaSo today we’re going to move away from the weight stuff a little bit, into some of the other the wide constellation of things that can happen in menopause and perimenopause. Before we get into some nitty gritty stuff, I want to do Laurie’s question about hormone replacement therapy, since that is still one of those topics that people are like, Is it good? Is it bad? I don’t know.So Laurie asked: Is there a reason why a doctor would not want to prescribe hormone replacement therapy? My doctor seems more willing to treat individual symptoms instead of using HRT. Is that maybe because I’m still getting my period?MaraI love this question. Now my professor hat can nerd out about interpretation of scientific research! So first, I’ll just briefly say, Laurie, no big deal that you said HRT. But just so everyone’s aware, the preferred term is menopausal hormone therapy, MHT, or just hormone therapy, and it’s not a huge deal. But I think the North American Menopause Society now uses “menopausal hormone therapy.” The thinking is, hormones don’t necessarily need to be replaced. It comes back to that idea of, menopause is a natural part of life, and so the idea that they would need to be replaced is not totally accurate. VirginiaWe’re not trying to get you out of menopause, right? The goal isn’t to push you back into some pre-menopausal hormonal state. MaraBut again, not a big deal. You’ll see HRT still used, and a lot of doctors still use that term. So I graduated from medical school in 2015 and I remember one of the first times that a patient asked me about using menopausal hormone therapy, I was terrified. And I was still in training, so luckily, I had a mentor who guided me through it. But I had absorbed this very clear message from medical school, which is that menopausal hormone therapy will cause heart disease, cause pulmonary emboli, which are blood clots in the lungs, and cause breast cancer.And I was like, “Ahhh! I’m gonna cause harm to my patients. This is scary.” I had also learned that hot flashes–they weren’t life threatening. So a patient could just use a fan and she’d be fine, right? She didn’t need medicine for it.VirginiaCool.MaraI think the dismissal of symptoms here is just straight up misogyny. That message of, oh, you should just live with this You’re tough, you’re a woman, you can do it. This is just the next stage of it. Is just misogyny, right?But the fear of using menopausal hormone therapy has a specific historical context. There was a major study called the Women’s Health Initiative, and it was a randomized control trial, which is the gold standard in medical research. People were given estrogen and progestin to treat menopausal symptoms or they were given a placebo, and they didn’t know which pill they took. But WHI was actually halted early because they found an increased risk of breast cancer. This was on the front page of The New York Times. It was a really, really big deal. That was 2002 or 2003. So even 15 years later, when I was starting out as a doctor, I was still absorbing its message. And I think a lot of doctors who are still in practice have just deeply absorbed this message.But there’s a lot to consider here. The first issue is in the way that information about the Women’s Health Initiative was communicated. Nerd out with me for a second here: There is a big difference between absolute risk and relative risk. And this is a really subtle issue that’s often communicated poorly in the media.So I looked it up in the initial paper that came out of the Women’s Health Initiative. There was a relative risk of 26 percent of invasive breast cancer, right? So that meant that the people who got the estrogen and progestin, as opposed to a placebo, had a relative increased risk of 26 percent compared to the placebo arm.VirginiaWhich sounds scary,MaraSounds terrifying, right? But the absolute risk is the risk in comparison to one another. And they found that if you’re a patient taking the estrogen/progestin, your absolute risk was 8 people out of 10,000 women a year would get invasive breast cancer. So it’s very, very small.And this is an issue I see in medical journalism all the time. We talk about relative risk, like your risk compared to another group, but the absolute risk remains extremely low.And just to round it out: I looked all this up about cardiovascular events too. Things like a heart attack, a stroke. So the absolute risk was 19. So there were 19 cases of a cardiovascular event out of 10,000 women in a year. People just freaked out about this because of the way that it was covered in the media. VirginiaI was fresh out of college, doing women’s health journalism at the time. So I fully own having been part of that problem. We definitely reported on the relative risk, not the absolute risk. And I don’t understand why. I look back and I’m like, what were we all doing? We ended up taking this medication away from millions of women who could really benefit from it.MaraI found a paper that showed between 2002 and 2009 prescriptions for menopausal hormone therapy declined by more than 60 percent. VirginiaI’m not surprised. MaraAnd then even up until the time I started my training, right in 2015, we’re just seeing a huge decline in hormone therapy prescriptions.One other thing that’s also super important to acknowledge about the Women’s Health Initiative is that they enrolled women over 60, which is not really representative of women who want or need hormone therapy. So the average age of menopause is 51 and the vast majority of women who are experiencing symptoms that would respond well to hormone therapy are much younger. We’re talking here mostly about hot flashes. Which we call vasomotor symptoms of menopause, but it’s basically hot flashes. Women dealing with this are much younger, right? So they’re approaching menopause, late 40s, and right after the menopausal transition, early 50s, and then they don’t necessarily need it anymore, after their symptoms have improved.VirginiaAnd it will also be true that with women in their 60s, you’re going to see more incidence of cancer and heart disease in that age group than in women in their 40s anyway, right? MaraRightVirginiaSo even the 19 cases, the eight cases—they were looking at a higher risk population in general. MaraYeah. And so there have been all these subsequent analyses, which is why now we’re seeing menopausal hormone therapy sort of on the upswing. There’s a lot of increased interest in it. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists recommends it, the North American Menopause Society, the British Menopause Society; here’s a full run-down. It’s not that everybody needs it, and we’ll get to that in a second, but it is a totally safe and appropriate treatment for—specifically and most importantly—for vasomotor symptoms of menopause. Like hot flashes. There’s been all these further analyses of the Women’s Health Initiative data and and then from other studies, too. And basically, it shows that when the hormone therapy is initiated before age 60, or within 10 years of menopause, there’s a reduced risk of heart disease and reduced mortality.VirginiaWow! MaraSo the timing matters. Isn’t that so interesting? The timing matters.Also, the route of administration matters. So what that means in English is that an estrogen patch seems to have a lower risk of blood clots. So one of those fears of the, you know, initial Women’s Health Initiative data was that you might have an increased risk of blood clots. But it’s something about the way that the estrogen is metabolized. It’s not metabolized through the liver when it’s absorbed through the skin, and something about that process seems to decrease the risk of blood clots.So that’s why your doctor, if you’re interested in menopausal hormone therapy, might recommend an estrogen patch rather than a pill.VirginiaGot it. MaraThere’s a lot of ambiguity in all of this data, because, you know, we’re talking about just huge numbers of people, and it’s hard to sort of isolate variables when you’re studying just like massive cohorts of people and trying to understand what you know, what factors affect your risk for which diseases. It’s not clear that taking hormones prevents heart disease. And that’s one of the big claims I see with menopause influencers, that every single person needs this.The data don’t support it at this point in time, and the major menopause organizations do not recommend it as a universal preventative treatment for everybody. But it seems like there might be some sort of association that may become clearer as research continues. That said, now it seems like the pendulum is swinging in the opposite direction. I learned, “be afraid of menopausal hormone treatment.” And now all these menopause influencers are saying everyone should be on hormone therapy.I don’t know the answer. And so the way that I try to parse through all of this noise is, you know, go to trusted sources, right? So I stick to society guidelines, like the North American menopause society, the British menopause society, they’re run by world experts in menopause.VirginiaOkay, so we don’t need to be terrified of hormone therapy, and you can be on it if you’re still getting your period right? Just to finish Laurie’s question.MaraIf you’re still getting a period regularly, you’re more in perimenopause than past the menopausal transition. And we will often use contraception to help and that you can have a lot of the same benefits from using contraception in that stage. It’s also useful just because unintended pregnancy still can be totally a thing in your 40s. But yes, you can absolutely use traditional regimens of menopausal hormone therapy while you’re still getting a period too. Just know it won’t prevent pregnancy. VirginiaSince we talked a little bit about hot flashes, I’m gonna jump to Judy’s question so we can kind of round that piece out: One of the things I am really struggling with is the way I have lost all ability to regulate temperature. I am boiling hot almost all the time, and the slightest thing makes me break out into a full sweat, which makes me not want to move at all.My doctor has not been super helpful in navigating this. What can I do to mitigate this issue? If anything, it is so very hard for me not to blame the size of my body for this, since the correlation seems so clear, smaller body less sweating, larger body sweating all the dang time.MaraJudy, I empathize first of all. Just one caveat I can’t really give medical advice to Judy. There are a lot of things that could be going on, and it’s really important that you see a doctor and get a full history and physical exam. But I will say that this is one of the things that menopausal hormone therapy is extremely helpful for, is hot flashes.VirginiaThat was my first thought! MaraThere are a lot of influencers who really overstate the benefits of hormone therapy, right? Hormone therapy is not really going to cause significant weight loss or prevent weight gain. It’s not totally clear that it helps with mood symptoms or even sleep is a little more ambiguous. But the one thing it really works for is hot flashes. So that would be my thought: Start there. VirginiaAnd on the feeling like you want to blame your body for it: I don’t know if Judy identifies as fat, but as someone who identifies as fat, I often feel like I’m sweatier now than when I was thinner. I run warmer. All my skinny friends will be bundled up in coats, and I still won’t be wearing one in October. I do notice that. And I think that this is a situation where that is, even if those two things correlate— you’re larger and you’re sweatier—is that worth putting yourself through the hell of weight loss? You may decide yes, it is, if hormone therapy doesn’t work for you.But that’s one of those times where I bring it back to “What would actually make my daily life miserable?” I can drink water, I can be in AC, I’m gonna find a link to this nighttime cooling bed thing that my friend Claire Zulkey really loves. MaraI’ve heard of those!VirginiaI think there are options to mitigate your suffering with this. Medicine is definitely an option. Before you go to “okay, my body size has to be the thing that changes.”MaraI totally agree. I just deal with this all the time where people tell me in my clinic that they want to lose weight. And when I sort of gently ask, what are you hoping to achieve? What are your goals? They’re often things that can be achieved through other means. Like, people say my clothes don’t fit, right? And most of my patients are low-income, right? I’m not trying to be flippant about the idea that everyone can just go and purchase a new, you know, multi $1,000 wardrobe at the drop of a hat. But it is possible to get new clothes in affordable ways. Don’t torture yourself with clothes that don’t fit because you feel like weight gain is a moral failing. And I think that there are things that we can do to help keep us at a comfortable temperature, right wear clothes that feel, you know, that feel good. Air conditioning is an amazing modern invention. And, you know, cool beverages, ice cream. VirginiaPopsicle O’Clock is very important in my summer right now, very important. MaraWait, what’s a popsicle clock?VirginiaOh, Popsicle O’Clock. It’s just the time of day where you eat popsicles. It could be 9am it could be 4pm just whenever I feel like we need to add popsicles to a situation.MaraI think we all need more popsicles in our life, that is absolutely for sure.So I think what I’m hearing from Judy’s question is once again, shame about body size, and also this myopic zooming in on weight loss as the only possible solution. Which I blame doctors for in many ways! Some people do benefit from weight loss, right? I’m not opposed to the idea that anybody would ever want to lose weight. I don’t think that that’s a betrayal of fat solidarity, necessarily. But that there are other things you can do just to make your life feel better in the meantime, or even if you choose to never pursue weight loss. There are things you can do to feel better, and we shouldn’t deprive ourselves of those things.VirginiaAnd you don’t know that it is the weight gain. It could be age and hormones, and those coincided with the weight gain for you personally. But there are lots of thin women getting hot flashes all the time too.Okay, this next question is from Michaela: I am super curious about the connection between perimenopause, menopause and mental health symptoms, specifically, an uptick in anxiety and depression. Is this a thing?We also got many questions about whether perimenopause and menopause exacerbate ADHD symptoms. MaraSo this is a question I get a lot from my patients, and I’ve seen a lot of discourse about online. And the short answer is: There is probably a connection between the hormonal changes of perimenopause and the menopausal transition and mental health. Do we understand it? No. So I mean, with ADHD specifically, I will say: This is really not my area of expertise. It’s a very complex mental health condition, and our medical understanding of it is really rapidly evolving. I have many patients who have a diagnosis of ADHD but I’m typically not the one who diagnoses them. That being said: Estrogen affects neurotransmitters. Neurotransmitters are implicated in ADHD. Declining estrogen does seem to affect dopamine, in particular, which is implicated in ADHD. And anecdotally, I’ve had many of my patients say that they feel like their ability to focus and sustain attention decreases. And they experience brain fog as they enter perimenopause and menopause. So it’s there’s probably something going on, and a lot of researchers are really actively studying it, but we don’t know yet.VirginiaDo we know if this is something that hormone therapy can help with?MaraSo I think the answer is, I don’t know.VirginiaWhat about anxiety and depression?MaraI don’t think the data are there, right? Hormone therapy is usually not considered a first line treatment for the mental health conditions that are often associated with the menopausal transition. But we have great medicines for those conditions. We have good treatments for ADHD, we have good treatments for anxiety and depression. And sometimes during the menopausal transition, patients might need an increase of those treatments. And that could mean going back into therapy, if you’ve been out of therapy, increasing your medications or restarting a med that you may have stopped years ago. Those are all totally valid approaches during this phase.And I guess what I’d say, is that it’s okay to trust your body. And if you notice changes in your mental health associated with perimenopause or menopause itself, ask about it. Don’t be afraid to advocate for yourself. And while hormone therapy doesn’t look like it is an effective treatment specifically for those symptoms, there are other treatments, and you should feel empowered to ask about them.VirginiaThe next question goes back to some of the diet and exercise stuff we’ve touched on. This person writes: Since recently reaching menopause, my cholesterol has become high. I understand there is a proven link between menopause and increased cholesterol, and that weight is part of the picture. I’m trying to lower my cholesterol with focus on nutrition and exercise. But it is fucking with my head because it feels like a very restrictive diet. I’d love any thoughts on the menopause cholesterol connection and keeping cholesterol low with nutrition and exercise without falling into the abyss of obsessing about how many almonds I’ve eaten.MaraOh, that is such a good question!VirginiaThe almond of it all. MaraAlmonds are really good in some scenarios, but also just like, kind of a sad snack. I always think about President Obama eating those, like, eight almonds, or whatever.VirginiaIt turns out that was a joke and he wasn’t doing that. But just the fact that everybody assumed he would says a lot! MaraThat is hilarious, and I didn’t know! And it just shows how with information online, the initial story sticks. Like to this day, 10 years later, I still thought that Barack Obama ate eight almonds as his indulgent midnight snack every single night. I hope the man is eating some ice cream and living his best life. Okay, so there is absolutely a link between menopause and elevated risk of cardiovascular disease. But even within the term cholesterol, there are different types. I wouldn’t really say to a patient, “Your cholesterol is high.” One thing you might hear is “your LDL cholesterol is high,” which is known popularly as, the “bad” cholesterol. Which, again, moral language alert. But LDL cholesterol is a proxy for risk of cardiovascular disease. I will say it’s not a great one; it’s kind of a blunt instrument. We measure and we treat it, because we don’t have other great ways of predicting cardiovascular risk. But it is not the full portrait, although it’s certainly a risk factor for developing cardiovascular disease. And the transition of menopause seems to impact LDL, cholesterol, other biomarkers of cardiovascular disease, and increases your risk for cardiovascular disease.And what’s interesting–I think we talked about this a little bit already, is that this happens, this this risk happens independent of normal aging.So, for example, women who go through menopause early start developing this increased risk earlier than women who go through menopause slightly later. And overall, we see that women develop cardiovascular disease, at rates lower than men, and at later in life than men. And there’s a hypothesis that this has to do with menopause, right? That there’s a protective effect of estrogen, but then when your estrogen starts to decline in menopause, it puts women at an increased risk compared to where they were pre-menopause.There’s also some data to suggest that the severity of menopause symptoms—particularly vasomotor symptoms like hot flashes or sleep disturbances—may indicate risk for developing cardiovascular disease. So this is not to scare everyone, but it’s good to have knowledge. If you’re having really severe hot flashes, it may indicate that you are at slightly higher risk for developing cardiovascular disease than somebody who is not. The intention of having this knowledge is not to make you feel shame, and not to berate you for your belly fat or whatever. It’s to have knowledge so that you can help mitigate risk factors in ways that feel aligned with your values and ways that feel aligned with the way that you want to pursue health in your life.And so I would approach this reader’s or this listener’s question with smy same approach to all of my patients questions. “I have hypertension, does that mean I need to lose weight?” “I have diabetes, does that mean I need to lose weight?” The answer is that we have many treatments that can help you address these concerns independent of weight loss. But this is not to say that you cannot pursue weight loss too, right? And if using a GLP-1 agonist to reduce your visceral adiposity is aligned with your values, and you can tolerate the side effects, and you feel good about it, and it’s covered by your insurance….that’s totally a reasonable approach. But it’s not the only one. So I think what I’m hearing from this patient is the menopause flavor of what I do every single day in my work as a size inclusive doctor. Which is: How can we disentangle weight stigma and body shame from these questions of how to lead a healthy life? And the idea of giving you more information, I hope, is not to shame you or make you feel guilt for the relationship between body size and risk of cardiovascular disease, but instead, to give you information that might help you take proactive care of your body, right?And proactive care might mean committing to an exercise routine. Proactive care might mean taking a statin. A statin is a very common cholesterol medicine like Lipitor. It might mean getting your blood pressure under control and taking an antihypertensive.VirginiaI also want to say on cholesterol, specifically, I did a piece that I’ll link to digging into the connection between nutrition and cholesterol. And the data is not as strong as I think a lot of doctors are telling folks.And I think the benefit of making dietary changes—the amount it could lower cholesterol—was not huge. It was like three points or six points or something in one of the studies we looked at. So if it’s making you crazy to count almonds, it’s possible that medication might be a more health promoting strategy for you. Because it will be less stressful and it will have a bigger benefit on your cholesterol than just trying to control it through diet and exercise.MaraYeah, I totally agree. I think there’s a really strong genetic component that we haven’t fully understood and medication is a totally reasonable approach and very safe approach. Honestly, statins are pretty benign medications. They’re pretty inexpensive, pretty minimal side effects, which is not to say– nobody’s paying me from the statin companies, I swear to God!–but yeah, like they’re, they’re pretty benign as medications go. And I think it’s a totally reasonable way to approach this issue.VirginiaI just think it’s one of those times where this is shame coming in, where it’s like, “You should be able to fix this with how you eat and exercise, and so you don’t get the medication unless you fail at that!” This is a framing that I’ve encountered from doctors. But what if we gave the medication, what if we also consider diet and exercise, but don’t make that a pass/fail situation in order to earn the medication? MaraYeah, that’s really interesting.And even the language you’re using Virginia is what we use in the medical record, and I’ve tried to stop it. But the way we’re taught to describe patients, is “patient failed XYZ treatment,” right? And I feel like we’re both at once, overly invested in pharmaceutical treatments, right and underinvested. They’re a very useful tool. And we moralize it, both pro and con? Sometimes, like, we moralize in favor of it. So if your BMI is 26 or above, you need to be on a GLP one agonist, which is just false, right?But on the other hand, I think we often underutilize medications because there’s this sense that you’re getting at —that you have to exhaust all of your like willpower options first, and it’s somehow failing to use a med. And that is really false too. They’re really useful tools. Science is really useful, and we shouldn’t feel ashamed to use it.VirginiaAll right. And our last question, I like because it just will give us a chance to kind of sum up some key points: As a post menopausal woman, I feel like I’m swimming in information, and I’m overwhelmed by it all. What are Dr Gordon’s top three pieces of advice out of all of the WHO meaning, if women at this time only did these three things, it would make the biggest difference, and then they just had it. You know, is, does it need to be different for perimenopause versus post menopause? Or maybe not.So what are your top three? Top three tips for surviving this life stage?MaraOh, my God, if only I knew! I’m flattered that you’re asking, and I will do my best to answer, but I don’t think there’s a right answer at all.So I’ve thought about a couple things. I will say that, you know, longevity and wellness and health span is extremely complicated, but it’s also kind of simple, right?So sometimes the advice that we’ve just heard over and over again is actually really, really good, right? So, sleep. Are we sleeping enough?Staying engaged with social relationships, that seems to be extremely important for longevity. And it’s kind of amazing, actually. When they do these long-term studies on people who are thriving into old age, like they have really strong relationships. And that is so important.Moving our bodies and it does not need to be punishing. Workouts can be gardening. I know Virginia, I love receiving your gardening content online. Gardening is an amazing form of exercise, and can be very life affirming, and does not need to feel like punishment. Just getting up, moving our bodies, sleeping enough, maintaining relationships, cultivating a sense of purpose and meaning in our lives. It’s actually been really studied right, that people who have a sense of meaning and have a sense of purpose in their lives tend to live longer and live longer, healthier lives.So all of this is to say that like it’s complicated, but sometimes it’s not. And there are a million people on the Internet who want to sell you a miracle drug, a miracle supplement, a miracle weighted vest, whatever. But sometimes simple, Simple is good. Easier said than done, right?VirginiaYeah, but start simple. That’s wonderful.MaraCan I ask? Virginia, what would your advice be? VirginiaI love the three areas you hit on: Sleep, social relations and exercise or moving your body. None of those are about weight loss or dieting. I think that’s really helpful for us to keep in mind that the things that might protect our health the most can also be very joyful as well. The idea that doing things that makes you happy and reduce your stress can be health-promoting is great. And I think that’s something especially in midlife. We are all incredibly busy. We’re holding a lot of things together. A lot of us are caregivers, maybe sandwich generation caregivers. So prioritizing your own joy in that feels really wonderful.ButterVirginiaAll right, so speaking of joy, let’s do some Butter! Dr. Mara, what do you have for us?MaraI have a Philadelphia-specific one, but hopefully it can be extrapolated to our listeners in different locations. So I have recently been really craving soft serve ice cream. And so I googled best soft serve in Philadelphia, and I found this Vietnamese coffee shop called Càphê Roasters, which is in North Philly. In a neighborhood called Kensington. And it has condensed milk soft serve ice cream. So good.And so I recently, I had to give a lecture at a medical school in the north part of the city early in the morning. It was like, 8am and I was like, “Oh, I’m never up in this neighborhood. I gotta get over there.” And I went after I gave my lecture, and I bought myself ice cream at 10:30 in the morning. And I ate it in my car, and it was so good. Condensed milk. So good. But soft serve in general, is my Butter. But for those of you in Philly, go to Càphê Roasters in Kensington and get the condensed milk. It is chef’s kiss, delicious.VirginiaAmazing. I’m gonna double your Butter and say ice cream in general is my Butter right now. We have a spare fridge freezer that I have just been loading up with all of the popsicles to get us through summer. But also: Ice cream dates. Something that comes up a lot for me as a co-parent is figuring out how to have one on one time with my kids. Since we have joint custody, they move as a package. So I get kid-free time, which is wonderful, but when they’re with me, it’s just me. So one thing I’ve been figuring out is pockets of time when I can take one kid out for ice cream. It’s usually when a sibling is at another activity, and so we have an hour to kill, and often we would just like, wait for the activity, or go home and come back, and then you’re just driving.And now I’m like, No, that will be our ice cream break!MaraI love that.VirginiaSo one kid’s at the library doing her book trivia team stuff, and the other kid and I are getting ice cream while we wait for her. And it’s great one on one time with kids. Obviously, the ice cream is delicious. The other thing I’ve realized, especially if you have younger kids who are still building restaurant skills, ice cream is a great practice run at being a person in a restaurant, which is really hard for kids understandably. It is one food thing that they’re excited to go do. And you do have to sit and practice eating it somewhat neatly. There’s a high mess potential. My pro-move for that is, always have wipes in your car, bring a pack of wipes in. MaraI love that, and it’s so intentional about sort of creating traditions with kids. That feels really special. But I will say I had my ice cream solo, and that was also really good solo ice cream too.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! Today, my guest is Ash Brandin of Screen Time Strategies, also know as The Gamer Educator on Instagram. Ash is also the author of a fantastic new book, Power On: Managing Screen Time to Benefit the Whole Family. Ash joined us last year to talk about how our attitudes towards screen time can be…diet-adjacent. I asked them to come back on the podcast this week because a lot of us are heading into back-to-school mode, which in my experience can mean feelingsss about screen routines. There are A LOT of really powerful reframings in this episode that might blow your mind—and make your parenting just a little bit easier. So give this one a listen and share it with anyone in your life who’s also struggling with kids and screen time.Today’s episode is free but if you value this conversation, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription. Burnt Toast is 100% reader- and listener-supported. We literally can’t do this without you! PS. You can take 10 percent off Power On, or any book we talk about on the podcast, if you order it from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, along with a copy of Fat Talk! (This also applies if you’ve previously bought Fat Talk from them. Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)Episode 208 TranscriptVirginiaFor anyone who missed your last episode, can you just quickly tell us who you are and what you do?AshI’m Ash Brandin. I use they/them pronouns.I am a middle school teacher by day, and then with my online presence, I help families and caregivers better understand and manage all things technology—screen time, screens. My goal is to reframe the way that we look at them as caregivers, to find a balance between freaking out about them and allowing total access. To find a way that works for us. VirginiaWe are here today to talk about your brilliant new book, which is called Power On: Managing Screen Time to Benefit the Whole Family. I can’t underscore enough how much everybody needs a copy of this book. I have already turned back to it multiple times since reading it a few months ago. It just really helps ground us in so many aspects of this conversation that we don’t usually have.AshI’m so glad to hear that it’s helpful! If people are new to who I am, I have sort of three central tenets of the work that I do: * Screen time is a social inequity issue. * Screens can be part of our lives without being the center of our lives. * Screens and screen time should benefit whole families.Especially in the last few years, we have seen a trend toward panic around technology and screens and smartphones and social media. I think that there are many reasons to be concerned around technology and its influence, especially with kids. But what’s missing in a lot of those conversations is a sense of empowerment about what families can reasonably do. When we focus solely on the fear, it ends up just putting caregivers in a place of feeling bad.VirginiaYou feel like you’re getting it wrong all the time.AshShame isn’t empowering. No one is like, “Well, I feel terrible about myself, so now I feel equipped to go make a change,” right?Empowerment is what’s missing in so many of those conversations and other books and things that have come out, because it’s way harder. It’s so much harder to talk about what you can really do and reasonably control in a sustainable way. But I’m an educator, and I really firmly believe that if anyone’s in this sort of advice type space, be it online or elsewhere, that they need to be trying to empower and help families instead of just capitalizing on fear.VirginiaWhat I found most powerful is that you really give us permission to say: What need is screen time meeting right now? And this includes caregivers’ needs. So not just “what need is this meeting for my child,” but what need is this meeting for me? I am here recording with you right now because iPads are meeting the need of children have a day off school on a day when I need to work. We won’t be interrupted unless I have to approve a screen time request, which I might in 20 minutes.I got divorced a couple years ago, and my kids get a lot more screen time now. Because they move back and forth between two homes, and each only has one adult in it. Giving myself permission to recognize that I have needs really got me through a lot of adjusting to this new rhythm of our family.AshAbsolutely. And when we’re thinking about what the need is, we also need to know that it’s going to change. So often in parenting, it feels like we have to come up with one set of rules and they have to work for everything in perpetuity without adjustment. That just sets us up for a sense of failure if we’re like, well, I had this magical plan that someone told me was going to work, and it didn’t. So I must be the problem, right? It all comes back to that “well, it’s my fault” place.VirginiaWhich is screens as diet culture.AshAll over again. We’re back at it. It’s just not helpful. If instead, we’re thinking about what is my need right now? Sometimes it’s “I have to work.” And sometimes it’s “my kid is sick and they just need to relax.” Sometimes it’s, as you were alluding to earlier, it’s we’ve all just had a day, right? We’ve been run ragged, and we just need a break, and that need is going to dictate very different things. If my kid is laid up on the couch and throwing up, then what screen time is going to be doing for them is very different than If I’m trying to work and I want them to be reasonably engaged in content and trying to maybe learn something. And that’s fine. Being able to center “this is what I need right now,” or “this is what we need right now,” puts us in a place of feeling like we’re making it work for us. Instead of feeling like we’re always coming up against some rule that we’re not going to quite live up to.VirginiaI’d love to talk about the inequity piece a little more too. As I said, going from a two parent household to a one parent household, which is still a highly privileged environment—but even just that small shift made me realize, wait a second. I think all the screen time guidance is just for typical American nuclear families. Ideally, with a stay at home parent.So can you talk about why so much of the standard guidance doesn’t apply to most of our families?AshIt’s not even just a stay at home parent. It’s assuming that there is always at least one caregiver who is fully able to be present. Mom, default parent, is making dinner, and Dad is relaxing after work and is monitoring what the kids are doing, right? And it’s one of those times where I’m like, have you met a family?VirginiaPeople are seven different places at once. It’s just not that simple.AshIt’s not that simple, right? It’s like, have you spent five minutes in a typical household in the last 10 years? This is not how it’s going, right?So the beginning of the book helps people unlearn and relearn what we may have heard around screens, including what research really does or doesn’t say around screens, and this social inequity piece. Because especially since the onset of COVID, screens are filling in systemic gaps for the vast majority of families.I’m a family with two caregivers in the home. We both work, but we’re both very present caregivers. So we’re definitely kind of a rarity, that we’re very privileged. We’re both around a lot of the time. And we are still using screens to fill some of those gaps.So whether it’s we don’t really have a backyard, or people are in a neighborhood where they can’t send their kids outside, or they don’t have a park or a playground. They don’t have other kids in the neighborhood, or it’s not a safe climate. Or you live in an apartment and you can’t have your neighbors complain for the fifth time that your kids are stomping around and being loud. Whatever it is—a lack of daycare, affordable after school care —those are all gaps. They all have to be filled. And we used to have different ways of filling those gaps, and they’ve slowly become less accessible or less available. So something has to fill them. What ends up often filling them is screens. And I’m not saying that that’s necessarily a good thing. I’d rather live in a world in which everyone is having their needs met accessibly and equitably. But that’s a much harder conversation, and is one that we don’t have very much say in. We participate in that, and we might vote for certain people, but that’s about all we can really do reasonably. So, in the meantime, we have to fill that in with something and so screens are often going to fill that in.Especially if you look at caregivers who have less privilege, who are maybe single caregivers, caregivers of color, people living in poverty—all of those aspects of scarcity impacts their bandwidth. Their capacity as a caregiver is less and spread thinner, and all of that takes away from a caregiver’s ability to be present. And there were some really interesting studies that were done around just the way that having less capacity affects you as a caregiver.And when I saw that data, I thought, well, of course. Of course people are turning to screens because they have nothing else to give from. And when we think of it that way, it’s hard to see that as some sort of personal failure, right? When we see it instead as, oh, this is out of necessity. It reframes the question as “How do I make screens work for me,” as opposed to, “I’m bad for using screens.”VirginiaRight. How do I use screen time to meet these needs and to hopefully build up my capacity so that I can be more present with my kids? I think people think if you’re using a lot of screens, you’re really never present. It’s that stereotype of the parent on the playground staring at their phone, instead of watching the kid play. When maybe the reason we’re at the playground is so my kid can play and I can answer some work emails. That doesn’t mean I’m not present at other points of the day.AshOf course. You’re seeing one moment. I always find that so frustrating. It just really feels like you you cannot win. If I were sitting there staring at my child’s every move in the park, someone would be like, “you’re being a helicopter,” right? And if I look at my phone because I’m trying to make the grocery pickup order—because I would rather my child have time at the playground than we spend our only free hour in the grocery store and having to manage a kid in the grocery store and not having fun together, right? Instead I’m placing a pickup order and they’re getting to run around on the playground. Now also somehow I’m failing because I’m looking at my phone instead of my kid. But also, we want kids to have independent time, and not need constant input. It really feels like you just can’t win sometimes. And being able to take a step back and really focus on what need is this meeting? And if it’s ours, and if it is helping me be more present and connected, that’s a win. When I make dinner in the evening, my kid is often having screen time, and I will put in an AirPod and listen to a podcast, often Burnt Toast, and that’s my decompression. Because I come home straight from work and other things. I’m not getting much time to really decompress.VirginiaYou need that airlock time, where you can decompress and then be ready to be present at dinner.I’m sure I’ve told you this before, but I reported a piece on screen time for Parents Magazine, probably almost 10 years ago at this point, because I think my older child was three or four. And I interviewed this Harvard researcher, this older white man, and I gave him this the dinner time example. I said, I’m cooking dinner. My kid is watching Peppa Pig so that I can cook dinner, and take a breath. And then we eat dinner together. And he said, “Why don’t you involve her in cooking dinner? Why don’t you give her a bag of flour to play with while you cook dinner?”AshOf all the things!VirginiaAnd I said to him: Because it’s 5pm on a Wednesday and who’s coming to clean the flour off the ceiling?AshA bag of flour. Of all the things to go to! VirginiaHe was like, “kids love to make a happy mess in the kitchen!” I was like, well I don’t love that. And it was just exactly that. My need didn’t matter to him at all. He was like, “h, well, if you just want to pacify your children…” I was like, I do, yes, in that moment.AshWell, and I think that’s another part of it is that someone says it to us like that, and we’re like, “well, I can’t say yes,” right? But in the moment, yeah, there are times where it’s like, I need you to be quiet. And as hard as this can be to think, sometimes it’s like right now, I need you to be quiet and convenient because of the situation we’re in. And that doesn’t mean we’re constantly expecting that of them, and hopefully that’s not something we’re doing all the time. But if the need is, oh my God, we’re all melting down, and if we don’t eat in the next 15 minutes, we’re going to have a two hour DEFCON1 emergency on our hands, then, yeah, I’m gonna throw Peppa Pig on so that we can all become better regulated humans in the next 15 minutes and not have a hungry meltdown. And that sounds like a much better alternative to me!VirginiaThan flour all over my kitchen on a Wednesday, right? I mean, I’ll never not be mad about it. It’s truly the worst parenting advice I’ve ever received. So thank you for giving us all more space as caregivers to be able to articulate our own needs and articulate what we need to be present. It’s what we can do in the face of gaps in the care system that leave us holding so much.That said: I think there are some nitty gritty aspects of this that we all struggle wit, so I want to talk about some of the nuts and bolts pieces. One of my biggest struggles is still the question of how much time is too much time? But you argue that time really isn’t the measure we should be using. As you’re saying, that need is going to vary day to day, and all the guidance that’s been telling us, like, 30 minutes at this age, an hour at this age, all of that is not particularly germane to our lives. So can you explain both why time is less what we should fixate on? And then how do I release myself? How do I divest from the screen time diet culture?AshOh man, I wish I had a magic bullet for that one. We’ll see what I can do.When I was writing this and thinking about it and making content about it, I kept thinking about you. Because the original time guidelines that everyone speaks back to—they’re from the AAP. And they have not actually been used in about 10 years, but people still bring them up all the time. The “no time under two” and “up to an hour up to age five” and “one to two hours, five to 12.” And if you really dig in, I was following footnote after footnote for a while, trying to really find where did this actually come from? It’s not based on some study that found that that’s the ideal amount of time. It really came from a desire to find this middle ground of time spent being physically idle. These guidelines are about wanting to avoid childhood obesity.VirginiaOf course.AshIt all comes back, right?VirginiaI should have guessed it.AshAnd so in their original recommendations, the AAP note that partially this is to encourage a balance with physical movement. Which, of course, assumes that if you are not sitting watching TV or using an iPad, that you will be playing volleyball or something.VirginiaYou’ll automatically be outside running around.AshExactly, of course, those are the only options.VirginiaIt also assumes that screen time is never physical. But a lot of kids are very physical when they’re watching screens.AshExactly. And it, of course, immediately also imposes a morality of one of these things is better—moving your body is always better than a screen, which is not always going to be true, right? All these things have nuance in them. But I thought that was so interesting, and it shouldn’t have surprised me, and yet somehow it still did. And of course it is good to find movement that is helpful for you and to give your kids an enjoyment of being outside or moving their bodies, or playing a sport. And putting all of that in opposition to something else they may enjoy, like a screen, really quickly goes to that diet culture piece of “well, how many minutes have you been doing that?” Because now we have to offset it with however many minutes you should be running laps or whatever.So those original recommendations are coming from a place of already trying to mitigate the negatives of sitting and doing something sort of passively leisurely. And in the last 10 years, they’ve moved away from that, and they now recommend what’s called making a family media plan. Which actually I think is way better, because it is much more prioritizing what are you using this for? Can you be doing it together? What can you do? It’s much more reasonable, I think. But many people still go back to those original recommendations, because like you said, it’s a number. It’s simple. Just tell me.VirginiaWe love to grab onto a number and grade ourselves.AshJust tell me how much time so that I can tell myself I’m I’m doing a good job, right? But you know, time is just one piece of information. It can be so specific with what am I using that time to do? If I’m sitting on my computer and doing work for an hour and a half, technically, that is screen time, but it is going to affect me a lot differently than if I’m watching Netflix or scrolling my phone for an hour and a half. I will feel very different after those things. And I think it’s really important to be aware of that, and to make our kids aware of that from an early age, so that they are thinking about more than just, oh, it’s been X amount of minutes. And therefore this is okay or not okay.Because all brains and all screens are different. And so one kid can watch 20 minutes of Paw Patrol, and they’re going to be bouncing off the walls, because, for whatever reason, that’s just a show that’s really stimulating for them. And somebody else can sit and watch an hour and a half of something, and they’ll be completely fine. So if you have a kid that is the first kid, and after 20 minutes, you’re like, oh my god, it’s not even half an hour. This is supposed to be an okay amount. This is how they’re acting. We’re right back to that “something’s wrong. I’m wrong. They’re bad,” as opposed to, “What is this telling me? What’s something we could do differently? Could we try a different show? Could we try maybe having some physical movement before or after, see if that makes a difference?” It just puts us more in a place of being curious to figure out again, how do I make this work for me? What is my need? How do I make it work for us?And not to rattle on too long, but there was a big study done in the UK, involving over 120,000 kids. And they were trying to find what they called “the Goldilocks amount of time.”VirginiaYes. This is fascinating.AshSo it’s the amount of time where benefit starts to wane. Where we are in that “just right”amount. Before that, might still be okay, but after that we’re going to start seeing some negative impacts, particularly when it comes to behavior, for example.What they found in general was that the Goldilocks number tended to be around, I think, an hour and 40 minutes a day. Something around an hour and a half a day. But if you looked at certain types of screens, for computers or TV, it was much higher than that. It was closer to three hours a day before you started seeing some negative impacts. And even for things like smartphones, it was over an hour a day. But what I found so so interesting, is that they looked at both statistical significance, but also what they called “minimally important difference,” which was when you would actually notice these negative changes, subjectively, as a caregiver.So this meant how much would a kid have to be on a screen for their adult at home to actually notice “this is having an impact on you,” regularly. And that amount was over four and a half hours a day on screens.VirginiaBefore caregivers were like, “Okay, this is too much!” And the fact that the statistically significant findings for the minutia of what the researchers looking at is so different from what you as a caregiver are going to actually be thrown by. That was really mind blowing to me.AshRight, And that doesn’t mean that statistical significance isn’t important, necessarily. But we’re talking about real minutiae. And that doesn’t always mean that you will notice any difference in your actual life.Of course, some people are going to hear this and go, “But I don’t want my kid on a screen for four and a half hours.” Sure. That’s completely reasonable. And if your kid is having a hard time after an hour, still reasonable, still important. That’s why we can think less about how many minutes has it been exactly, and more, what am I noticing? Because if I’m coming back to the need and you’re like, okay, I have a meeting and I need an hour, right? If you know, “I cannot have them use their iPad for an hour, because they tend to become a dysregulated mess in 25 minutes,” that’s much more useful information than “Well, it says they’re allowed to have an hour of screen time per day so this should be fine because it’s an hour.”VirginiaRight.AshIt sets you up for more success.VirginiaAnd if you know your kid can handle that hour fine and can, in fact, handle more fine, it doesn’t mean, “well you had an hour of screen time while I was in a meeting so now we can’t watch a show together later to relax together.” You don’t have to take away and be that granular with the math of the screens. You can be like, yeah, we needed an extra hour for this meeting, and we’ll still be able to watch our show later. Because that’s what I notice with my kids. If I start to try to take away from some other screen time, then it’s like, “Oh, god, wait, but that’s the routine I’m used to!” You can’t change it, and that’s fair.AshYes, absolutely. And I would feel that way too, right? If someone were giving me something extra because it was a convenience to them, but then later was like, “oh, well, I have to take that from somewhere.” But they didn’t tell me that. I would be like, Excuse me, that’s weird. That’s not how that works, right? This was a favor to you, right?VirginiaYeah, exactly. I didn’t interrupt your meeting. You’re welcome, Mom.Where the time anxiety does tend to kick in, though, is that so often it’s hard for kids to transition off screens. So then parents think, “Well, it was too much time,” or, “The screen is bad.” This is another very powerful reframing in your work. So walk us through why just because a kid is having a hard time getting off screens doesn’t mean it was too much and it doesn’t mean that screens are evil? AshSo an example I use many times that you can tweak to be whatever thing would come up for your kid is bath time. I think especially when kids are in that sort of toddler, three, four age. When my kid was that age, we had a phase where transitioning to and from the bathtub was very hard. Getting into it was hard. But then getting out of it was hard.VirginiaThey don’t ever want to get in. And then they never want to leave.AshThey never want to get out, right? And in those moments when my kid was really struggling to get out of the bathtub, imagine how it would sound if I was like, “Well, it it’s the bathtub’s fault.” Like it’s the bath’s fault that they are having such a hard time, it’s because of the bubbles, and it smells too good, and I’ve made it too appealing and the water’s too warm. Like, I mean, I sound unhinged, right?Virginia“We’re going to stop bathing you.”AshExactly. We would not say, “Well, we can’t have baths anymore.” Or when we go to the fun playground, and it’s really hard to leave the fun playground, we don’t blame the playground. When we’re in the grocery store and they don’t want to leave whichever aisle, we don’t blame the grocery store. And we also don’t stop taking them to the grocery store. We don’t stop going to playgrounds. We don’t stop having baths. Instead, we make different decisions, right? We try different things. We start a timer. We have a different transition. We talk about it beforehand. We strategize, we try things.VirginiaGive a “Hey, we’re leaving in a few minutes!” so they’re not caught off guard.AshExactly. We talk about it. Hey, last time it was really hard to leave here, we kind of let them know ahead of time, or we race them to the car. We find some way to make it more fun, to make the transition easier, right? We get creative, because we know that, hey, they’re going to have to leave the grocery store. They’re going to have to take baths in a reasonable amount of time as they grow up into their lives. We recognize the skill that’s happening underneath it.And I think with screens, we don’t always see those underlying skills, because we see it as this sort of superfluous thing, right? It’s not needed. It’s not necessary. Well, neither is going to a playground, technically.A lot of what we do is not technically required, but the skill underneath is still there. So when they are struggling with ending screen time, is it really the screen, or is it that it’s hard to stop doing something fun. It’s hard to stop in the middle of something. It’s hard to stop if you have been playing for 20 minutes and you’ve lost every single race and you don’t want to stop when you’ve just felt like you’ve lost over and over again, right? You want one more shot to one more shot, right?People are going to think, “Well, but screens are so much different than those other things.” Yes, a screen is designed differently than a playground or a bath. But we are going to have kids who are navigating a technological and digital world that we are struggle to even imagine, right? We’re seeing glimpses of it, but it’s going to be different than what we’re experiencing now, and we want our kids to be able to navigate that with success. And that comes back to seeing the skills underneath. So when they’re struggling with something like that, taking the screen out of it, and asking yourself, how would I handle this if it were anything else. How would I handle this if it were they’re struggling to leave a friend’s house? I probably wouldn’t blame the friend, and I wouldn’t blame their house, and I wouldn’t blame their boys.VirginiaWe’re never seeing that child again! Ash I would validate and I would tell them, it’s hard. And I would still tell them “we’re ending,” and we would talk about strategies to make it easier next time. And we would get curious and try something, and we would be showing our kids that, “hey, it’s it’s okay to have a hard time doing that thing. It’s okay to have feelings about it. And we’re still gonna do it. We’re still going to end that thing.”Most of the time, the things that we are struggling with when it comes to screens actually boil down to one of three things, I call them the ABCs. It’s either Access, which could be time, or when they’re having it, or how much. Behavior, which you’re kind of bringing up here. And Content, what’s on the screen, what they’re playing, what they what they have access to.And so sometimes we might think that the problem we’re seeing in front of us is a behavior problem, right? I told them to put the screen away. They’re not putting the screen away. That’s a behavior problem. But sometimes it actually could be because it’s an access issue, right? It’s more time than they can really handle at that given moment. Or it could be content, because it’s content that makes it harder to start and stop. So a big part of the book is really figuring out, how do I know what problem I’m even really dealing with here? And then what are some potential things that I can do about it? To try to problem solve, try to make changes and see if this helps, and if it helps, great, keep it. And if not, I can get curious and try something else. And so a lot of it is strategies to try and ways to kind of, you know, backwards engineer what might be going on, to figure out how to make it work for you, how to make it better.VirginiaIt’s so helpful to feel like, okay, there’s always one more thing I can tweak and adjust. Versus “it’s all a failure. We have to throw it out.” That kind of all or nothing thinking that really is never productive. The reason I think it’s so helpful that you draw that parallel with the bath or the play date is it reminds us that there are some kids for whom transitions are just always very difficult—like across the board. So you’re not just seeing a screen time problem. You’re being reminded “My kid is really building skills around transitions. We don’t have them yet.” We hope we will have them at some point. But this is actually an opportunity to work on that, as opposed to a problem. We can actually practice some of these transition skills.AshAnd I really like coming back to the skill, because if we’re thinking of it as a skill, then we’re probably more likely to tell our kids that it’s a skill, too. Because if we’re just thinking of it as like, well, it’s a screen. It’s the screen’s fault, it’s the screen’s fault. Then we might not say those literal words to our kids, but we might say, like, it’s always so hard to turn off the TV. Why is that, right? We’re talking about it as if it’s this sort of amorphous, like it’s only about the television, or it’s only about the iPad, and we’re missing the part of making it clear to our kids that, hey, this is a skill that you’re working on, and we work on this skill in different ways.VirginiaI did some good repair with my kids after reading your book. Because I was definitely falling into the trap of talking about screen addiction. I thought I was saying to them, “It’s not your fault. The screens are programmed to be bad for us in this way” So I thought, I was like at least not blaming them, but being like, we need less screens because they’re so dangerous.But then I read your book, and I was like, oh, that’s not helpful either. And I did have one of my kids saying, “Am I bad because I want to watch screens all the time?” And I was like, oh, that’s too concrete and scary.And again, to draw the parallel with diet culture: It’s just like telling kids sugar is bad, and then they think they’re bad because they like sugar. So I did do some repair. I was like, “I read this book and now I’ve learned that that was not right.” They were like, oh, okay. We’re healing in my house from that, so thank you.AshOh, you’re very welcome, and I’m glad to hear that!I think about those parallels with food all the time, because sometimes it just helps me think, like, wait, would I be wanting to send this message about food or exercise or whatever? And if the answer is no, then how can I tweak it so that I’m sending a message I’d be okay with applying to other things. And I like being able to make those parallels with my kid. In my household right now, we’re practicing flexibility. Flexibility is a skill that we’re working on in so many parts of our lives. And when I say we, I do mean we. Me, everybody is working on this.VirginiaParents can use more flexibility, for sure.AshAbsolutely. And so like, when those moments are coming up, you know, I’m trying to say, like, hey, like, what skill is this right now? Who’s having to be flexible right now? Flexible can be a good thing, right? We might be flexible by saying yes to eating dinner on the couch and watching a TV show. That’s flexibility. Flexibility isn’t just adjust your plans to be more convenient to me, child, so that I can go do something as an adult. And coming back to those skills so they can see, oh, okay, this isn’t actually just about screens. This applies to every part of these of my life, or these different parts of my life, and if I’m working on it here, oh, wow, it feels easier over there. And so they can see that this applies throughout their life, and kind of feel more of that buy in of like, oh, I’m getting better at that. Or that was easier. That was harder. We want them to see that across the board.VirginiaOh, my God, absolutely.Let’s talk about screens and neurodivergence a little bit. So one of my kiddos is neurodivergent, and I can both see how screens are wonderful for them at the end of a school day, when they come home and they’re really depleted. Screen time is the thing they need to rest and regulate. And they love the world building games, which gives them this whole world to control and explore. And there’s so much there that’s wonderful.And, they definitely struggle more than their sibling with this transition piece, with getting off it. One kid will naturally put down the iPad at some point and go outside for a bit, and this kid will not. And it creates more anxiety for parents. Because neurodivergent kids may both need screens—in ways that maybe we’re not totally comfortable with, but need to get comfortable with—and then struggle with the transition piece. So how do you think about this question differently with neurodivergence? Or or is it really the same thing you’re just having to drill in differently?AshI think it is ultimately the same thing, but it certainly is going to feel quite more heightened. And I think especially for certain aspects of neurodivergence, especially, I think it feels really heightened because of some of the ways that they might be discussed, particularly online, when it comes to how they relate to technology. I think about ADHD, we’ll see that a lot. Where I’ll see many things online about, like, “kids with ADHD should never be on a screen. They should never be on a device, because they are so dopamine-seeking.” And I have to just say that I find that to be such an ableist framing. Because with ADHD, we’re talking about a dopamine deficient brain. And I don’t think that we would be having that same conversation about someone needing insulin, right? Like, we wouldn’t be saying, like, oh yeah, nope, they can’t take that insulin. VirginiaThey’re just craving that insulin they need to stay alive.AshA kid seeking a thing that they’re that they are somehow deficient in—that’s not some sort of defiant behavior. VirginiaNo, it’s a pretty adaptive strategy.AshAbsolutely, it is. And we want kids to know that nobody’s brain is good or bad, right? There’s not a good brain or a bad brain. There are all brains are going to have things that are easier or harder. And it’s about learning the brain that you’re in, and what works or doesn’t work for the brain that you’re in.And all brains are different, right? Neurotypical brains and neurodivergent brains within those categories are obviously going to be vastly different. What works for one won’t work for another, and being able to figure out what works for them, instead of just, “because you have this kind of brain, you shouldn’t ever do this thing,” that’s going to set them up for more success. And I think it’s great that you mentioned both how a screen can be so regulating, particularly for neurodivergent brains, and then the double-edged sword of that is that then you have to stop. VirginiaTransition off back into the world.AshSo if the pain point is a transition, what is it really coming from? Is it coming from the executive function piece of “I don’t know how to find a place to stop?” A lot of people, particularly kids ADHD, they often like games that are more open-ended. So they might like something like a Minecraft or an Animal Crossing or the Sims where you can hyperfocus and deep dive into something. But what’s difficult about that is that, you know, if I play Mario Kart, the level ends, it’s a very obvious ending.VirginiaRight? And you can say, “One more level, and we’re done.”AshExactly. We’ve reached the end of the championship. I’m on the podium. I quit now, right?But there’s a never ending series of of tasks with a more open-ended game. And especially if I’m in my hyper focus zone, right? I can just be thinking, like, well, then I can do this and this and this and this and this, right?And I’m adding on to my list, and the last thing I want to do in that moment is get pulled out of it when I’m really feeling like I’m in the zone. So if that’s the kind of transition that’s difficult. And it’s much less about games and more about “how do I stop in the middle of a project?” Because that’s essentially what that is.And that would apply if I’m at school and I’m in the middle of an essay and we’re finishing it up tomorrow. Or I’m trying to decorate a cake, and we’re trying to walk out the door and I have to stop what I’m doing and come back later. So one of the tricks that I have found really helpful is to ask the question of, “How will you know when you’re done?” Or how will you know you’re at a stopping point? What would a stopping point be today? And getting them to sort of even visualize it, or say it out loud, so that they can think about, “Oh, here’s how I basically break down a giant task into smaller pieces,” because that’s essentially what that is.VirginiaThat’s a great tip. Ash“Okay, you have five minutes. What is the last thing you’re going to do today?” Because then it’s concrete in terms of, like, I’m not asking the last thing, and it will take you half an hour, right? I’m at, we have five minutes. What’s the last thing you’re wrapping up? What are you going to do?Then, if it’s someone who’s very focused in this world, and they’re very into that world, then that last thing can also be our transition out of it. As they’re turning it off, the very first thing we’re saying to them is, “So what was that last thing you were doing?”VirginiaOh, that’s nice.AshThen they’re telling it to us, and then we can get curious. We can ask questions. We can get a little into their world to help them transition out of that world. That doesn’t mean that we have to understand what they’re telling us, frankly. It doesn’t mean we have to know all the nuance. But we can show that interest. I think this is also really, really important, because then we are showing them it’s not us versus the screen. We’re not opposing the screen, like it’s the enemy or something. And we’re showing them, “Hey, I can tell you’re interested in this, so I’m interested in it because you are.” Like, I care about you, so I want to know more.VirginiaAnd then they can invite you into their world, which what a lot of neurodivergent kids need. We’re asking them to be part of the larger world all the time. And how nice we can meet them where they are a little more.AshAbsolutely. The other thing I would say is that something I think people don’t always realize, especially if they don’t play games as much, or if they are not neurodivergent and playing games, is they might miss that video games actually are extremely well-accommodated worlds, in terms of accommodating neurodivergence.So thinking about something like ADHD, to go back to that example, it’s like, okay, some really common classroom accommodations for ADHD, from the educator perspective, the accommodations I see a lot are frequent check ins, having a checklist, breaking down a large task into smaller chunks, objectives, having a visual organizer.Well, I think about a video game, and it’s like, okay, if I want to know what I have available to me, I can press the pause menu and see my inventory at any time. If I want to know what I should be doing, because I have forgotten, I can look at a menu and see, like, what’s my objective right now? Or I can bring up the map and it will show me where I supposed to be going. If I start to deviate from what I’m supposed to be doing, the game will often be like, “Hey, don’t forget, you’re supposed to be going over there!” It’ll get me back on task. If I’m trying to make a potion that has eight ingredients, the game will list them all out for me, and it will check them off as I go, so I can visually see how I’m how I’m achieving this task. It does a lot of that accommodation for me. And those accommodations are not as common in the real world, or at least not as easily achieved.And so a lot of neurodivergent kids will succeed easily in these game worlds. And we might think “oh because it’s addicting, or the algorithm, or it’s just because they love it” But there are often these structural design differences that actually make it more accessible to them.And if we notice, oh, wow, they have no problem knowing what to do when they’re playing Zelda, because they just keep checking their objective list all the time or whatever—that’s great information.VirginiaAnd helps us think, how can we do that in real life? AshExactly. We can go to them and say, hey, I noticed you, you seem to check your inventory a lot when you’re playing that game. How do we make it so that when you look in your closet, you can just as easily see what shirts you own. Whatever the thing may be, so that we’re showing them, “hey, bring that into the rest of your world that works for you here.” Let’s make it work for you elsewhere, instead of thinking of it as a reason they’re obsessed with screens, and now we resent the screens for that. Bring that in so that it can benefit the rest of their lives.VirginiaI’m now like, okay, that just reframes something else very important for me. You have such a helpful way of helping us divest from the guilt and the shame and actually look at this in a positive and empowering way for us and our kids. And I’m just so grateful for it. It really is a game changer for me.AshOh, thank you so much. I’m so glad to hear that it was helpful and empowering for you, and I just hope that it can be that for others as well.ButterAshSo my family and I have been lucky enough to spend quite a lot of time in Japan. And one of the wonderful things about Japan is they have a very huge bike culture. I think people think of the Netherlands as Bike cCentral, but Japan kind of rivals them.And they have a particular kind of bike that you cannot get in the United States. It’s called a Mamachari, which is like a portmanteau of mom and chariot. And it’s sort of like a cargo bike, but they are constructed a little differently and have some features that I love. And so when I’ve been in Japan, we are on those bikes. I’m always like, I love this kind of bike. I want this kind of bike for me forever. And my recent Butter has been trying to find something like that that I can have in my day to day life. And I found something recently, and got a lovely step through bike on Facebook Marketplace. VirginiaSo cool! That’s exciting to find on marketplace, too.AshOh yes, having a bike that like I actually enjoy riding, I had my old bike from being a teenager, and it just was not functional. I was like, “This is not fun.” And now having one that I enjoy, I’m like, oh yes. I feel like a kid again. It’s lovely.VirginiaThat’s a great Butter. My Butter is something both my kids and my pets and I are all really enjoying. I’m gonna drop a link in the chat for you. It is called a floof, and it is basically a human-sized dog bed that I found on Etsy. It’s like, lined with fake fur.AshMy God. I’m looking at it right now.VirginiaIsn’t it hilarious?AshWow. I’m so glad you sent a picture, because that is not what I was picturing?Virginia I can’t describe it accurately. It’s like a cross between a human-sized dog bed and a shopping bag? Sort of? AshYes, yes, wow. It’s like a hot tub.VirginiaIt’s like a hot tub, but no water. You just sit in it. I think they call it a cuddle cave. I don’t understand how to explain it, but it’s the floof. And it’s in our family room. And it’s not inexpensive, but it does basically replace a chair. So if you think of it as a furniture purchase, it’s not so bad. There’s always at least a cat or a dog sleeping in it. Frequently a child is in it. My boyfriend likes to be in it. Everyone gravitates towards it. And you can put pillows in it or a blanket.Neurodivergent people, in particular, really love it, because I think it provides a lot of sensory feedback? And it’s very enclosed and cozy. It’s great for the day we’re having today, which is a very laid back, low demand, watch as much screen as you want, kind of day. So I’ve got one kid bundled into the floof right now with a bunch of blankets in her iPad, and she’s so happy. AshOh my gosh. Also, it kind of looks like the person is sitting in a giant pita, which I also love.VirginiaThat’s what it is! It’s like a giant pita, but soft and cozy. It’s like being in a pita pocket. And I’m sure there are less expensive versions, this was like, 300 something dollars, so it is an investment. But they’re handmade by some delightful person in the Netherlands.Whenever we have play dates, there are always two or three kids, snuggled up in it together. There’s something extremely addictive about it. I don’t know. I don’t really know how to explain why it’s great, but it’s great.AshOh, that is lovely.VirginiaAll right, well tell obviously, everyone needs to go to their bookstore and get Power On: Managing Screen Time to Benefit the Whole Family. Where else can we find you, Ash? How can we support your work?AshYou can find me on Instagram at the gamer educator, and I also cross post my Instagram posts to Substack, and I’m on Substack as Screen Time Strategies. It’s all the same content, just that way you’re getting it in your inbox without, without having to go to Instagram. So if that’s something that you are trying to maybe move away from, get it via Substack. And my book Power On: Managing Screen Time to Benefit the Whole Family is available starting August 26 is when it fully releases.VirginiaAmazing. Thank you so much. This was really great.AshThank you so much for having me back.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!