Verse Talks with Brian Droitcour

How do you see an artist’s hand in a work made with software? Leyla Fakhr speaks with critic, editor and curator Brian Droitcour about The Secret Third Thing, a group exhibition on Verse that raises funds for Outland’s editorial programme.Brian traces his path from artist-run spaces to digital art criticism and explains how the exhibition grew out of questions about gesture and automation. They discuss Andrew Benson’s custom painting software, Mitchell Chan’s game sketches, and the image-making practices of Evil Biscuit and Parker Ito. The conversation closes with the realities of funding independent art criticism and how museums and curators are approaching digital art.Hosted by Leyla Fakhr.Guest Brian Droitcour.Outland — https://outlandart.substack.com/Brian Droitcour on X — @briandroitcour — https://x.com/briandroitcourVerse — https://verse.works/00:00:00 Introduction00:01:01 Brian’s curatorial beginnings00:06:45 Art writing and Outland00:10:11 The Secret Third Thing00:12:56 How digital art gets made00:19:35 Gesture, software and the artist’s hand00:24:54 Curating a fundraiser for Outland00:35:32 Andrew Benson and painting software00:38:59 Mitchell Chan’s game sketches00:41:59 Evil Biscuit and Parker Ito00:51:52 The market and funding independent criticism00:54:33 Digital art and the wider art world

What does it mean to collect digital art - and who decides how its history is preserved?Leyla Fakhr and Jamie Gourlay are joined by collectors Giannis Sourdis of Automat and Ivan of Güerita Art to discuss the pioneers of computer art, collecting beyond the NFT boom, and the research and conviction behind their collections.Charles Csuri’s Ordo opens a lively debate about posthumous releases, artists’ estates and the distinction between preserving a work and changing its medium. Along the way, we explore AI and scarcity, digital originals and physical prints, and how collectors and museums shape art history.00:00 Welcome to Verse Talks00:24 Introducing Giannis Sourdis00:30 Giannis: from crypto to collecting04:55 Ivan: technology, art and a contrarian approach12:58 Rediscovering computer art pioneers19:59 The digital art market after the boom27:07 AI, scarcity and artistic practice34:43 Building a collection through research39:43 Posthumous minting, Ordo and artist intent46:00 Preserving work across changing formats52:48 Working with artists’ estates1:01:07 Digital originals, prints and certificates1:04:56 Collectors’ responsibility to art history1:16:20 Visibility, pricing and access1:22:01 Who shapes the canon: collectors or museums?1:30:56 Closing thoughtsExplore more:Automat · @greekdxGüerita Art · @gueritaartCharles Csuri

Leyla Fakhr and Jamie Gourlay sat down with with Oscar Murillo in his studio to discuss Frequencies - a project 13 years in the making that cuts to the heart of his practice Oscar reflects on his childhood in Colombia, moving to London at eleven, and how drawing became both a refuge and the foundation of his practice. He discusses finding his way into art, supporting his early experimentation through cleaning work, and navigating the relationship between creativity, institutions and the market.Frequencies saw Oscar’s team place thousands of canvases on school desks around the world, and collected the drawings, marks and gestures made over time.We explore how Frequencies connects to his paintings, how it comes alive through exhibitions, and his thoughts on recording the archive on Ethereum.00:00 — Welcome to Oscar Murillo’s studio01:35 — Childhood in Colombia and his family’s move to London09:52 — Memories of home and the experience of displacement14:04 — Drawing as a refuge19:08 — Dyslexia, solitude and finding a creative language33:57 — Frequencies at the heart of his practice37:10 — Choosing art and the importance of a good teacher42:44 — Studying at Westminster and discovering London’s art scene51:26 — Cleaning work and sustaining an artistic practice1:00:58 — The Royal College of Art and finding his own approach1:05:05 — Early career, recognition and gallery relationships1:31:09 — Navigating success and staying focused on experimentation1:38:58 — The origins of Frequencies1:46:10 — Bringing canvases into schools around the world1:51:12 — Drawing, word paintings and the meaning of Frequencies1:56:11 — Taking the archive into exhibitions1:58:14 — Activating Frequencies at Castello di Rivoli2:01:23 — Participation and mark-making at Tate2:02:15 — Anonymity, participants and leaving outcomes open2:06:35 — Why take Frequencies digital?2:09:15 — Blockchain as a structure for distribution2:13:39 — Shared ownership, networks and connection2:16:01 — Art-world attitudes towards NFTs2:19:35 — Disruptive Frequencies and the future of the archiveFrequencies: https://frequenciesproject.org/Oscar Murillo Instagram: @lacachepliDavid Zwirner website: davidzwirner.comDavid Zwirner Instagram: @davidzwirnerOscar’s artist page: Oscar Murillo at David Zwirner

In this episode of Verse Talks, Leyla Fakhr speaks with Caroline Csuri, artist, entrepreneur and daughter of pioneering computer artist Charles Csuri.Caroline reflects on growing up around her father’s work, his beginnings as a painter and sculptor, his early experiments with computers in the 1960s, and the extraordinary community of artists, programmers and animators that surrounded him. The conversation traces Csuri’s practice across seven decades, from Hummingbird and Random War to his experiments with 3D animation, proprietary tools and generative systems. Caroline also discusses Ordo, a previously unreleased series created in 2017 and discovered among the files Csuri had personally archived on his computer, and why bringing this work onto the blockchain feels like a continuation of his thinking about digital art, provenance and preservation.  edit-caroline-csuri (1)Timestamps00:00 Introduction01:57 Meeting Caroline Csuri and carrying forward her father’s legacy04:38 Growing up around computer graphics and early interactive technology06:29 Caroline as an artist and understanding her father’s process07:27 Charles Csuri: artist, scientist and multidisciplinary thinker11:16 The New York art world, Cedar Tavern and Roy Lichtenstein14:08 Early computer art and Hummingbird16:19 30,000 punch cards and the making of early computer animation18:15 Disney, Frank Thomas, Ollie Johnston and Chuck Jones19:40 Csuri’s influence on a generation of computer animators21:38 The 1980s and developing his own artistic tools24:31 The Ribbon tool and drawing brushstrokes in 3D26:53 Random War, chance and Csuri’s experience of WWII29:22 Sine Curve Man and image transformation30:11 Ordo: discovering the 2017 series on Csuri’s computer33:31 Charles Csuri’s interest in blockchain and digital preservation35:01 Renewed attention around Csuri’s work39:18 Recognition, Christie’s and Caroline’s promise to her father42:13 Cranston/Csuri Productions and the rise of computer animation44:59 Returning to the studio and Csuri’s later artistic practice47:01 How Charles Csuri wanted to be remembered49:26 Collectors, institutions and renewed interest in his legacy50:42 Caroline’s vision for Csuri’s work and archive52:39 Making digital art accessible to a new generation54:01 Closing thoughts@Charlescsuri wwww.charlescsuri.com

Leyla Fakhr speaks with Brazilian artist, filmmaker and curator Kika Nicolela about community, collecting and finding new audiences for digital art.Kika discusses her work with Objkt, the culture around Tezos, and why physical exhibitions remain important for digital artists. They also talk about Kika’s recent exhibition in Shiraz and the role art can play in communities beyond the usual European and US centres.The conversation then turns to Kento, a new collectible art card project connecting physical cards with digital artworks. Kika explains how the project works, why they chose Kickstarter, and how it has helped them reach collectors outside Web3.They also discuss Instagram, onboarding new audiences, the relationship between physical and digital collecting, and what comes next for Kento.Timestamps00:00 Introduction: Leyla Fakhr and Kika Nicolela02:46 Being an artist and curator05:12 Community, collecting and onboarding artists08:52 Tezos and experimentation12:06 Curating at Objkt and Objkt One16:47 Why physical exhibitions matter for digital art21:46 Presenting digital art in physical spaces24:30 Shiraz and the Iranian art scene28:37 Introducing Kento30:43 Connecting physical cards with digital artworks32:01 Rarity, editions and claiming the digital work35:01 The 40 artists in Kento’s first season37:00 Why Kento chose Kickstarter42:45 Building an audience and raising $160,00044:16 Finding new collectors through Instagram49:45 Kento’s artists and the theme of web nostalgia53:06 What comes next for Kento55:58 Upcoming exhibitions and projects57:53 Closing thoughtshttps://kento.art/https://www.kikanicolela.art/

Leyla sat down with Michael Spalter, co-founder of the Anne and Michael Spalter Digital Art Collection - one of the world’s most important collections of computer and digital art. They discuss the collection’s history, the pioneers of the field, and the life and legacy of Charles Csuri.https://spalterdigital.com/Chapters: 00:00 – Introduction 00:46 – Michael and Anne Spalter’s journey into digital art 05:08 – Building the Spalter Digital Art Collection 09:05 – The pioneers of computer art 15:34 – The extraordinary life and work of Charles Csuri 20:40 – MoMA’s early acquisition of Hummingbird 22:55 – Discovering and collecting Csuri 31:51 – Artistic value versus market value 35:12 – Museums rediscover computer-art pioneers 39:59 – NFTs, Art Blocks and generative art 44:39 – Why Csuri remained outside the traditional art market 52:15 – Collecting as stewardship 56:17 – Csuri’s later 3D ribbon works and legacy 1:00:00 – Closing thoughts

In this episode of Verse Talks, Leyla and Jamie speak with digital art historian and researcher Noah Bolanowski about the overlooked history of digital art. From street art and the early days of Nifty Gateway to the NFT boom, blockchain, and the pioneers of computer art, Noah takes us through his journey into uncovering the people, works and stories that helped shape the medium.00:00 — Introduction: Noah Bolanowski01:43 — Becoming a digital art historian03:16 — Street art, collecting & the origins of Nifty Gateway07:22 — Keith Haring, Timothy Leary & early digital art11:59 — Becoming a “digital Indiana Jones”15:15 — Discovering NFTs & collecting on Nifty Gateway18:37 — The NFT boom and sudden six-figure valuations23:27 — Speculation, collectors & the pandemic NFT market30:48 — The 14-year-old CryptoPunks millionaire33:03 — What happened to the NFT market?36:48 — What can blockchain actually do for art?38:19 — Museums, smart contracts & exhibiting NFTs43:49 — Rethinking how digital art is displayed45:15 — Museums and the 70-year history of digital art48:19 — Why blockchain changed access to digital art50:21 — 1OF1 and the institutionalisation of digital art51:47 — Bill Gates’ early digital art displays55:32 — Do we actually want screens in our homes?58:49 — Why Noah turned towards digital art history1:02:48 — Who gets canonised in digital art history?1:04:05 — Questioning established narratives & the importance of provenance1:09:13 — The forgotten pioneers of computer art1:10:43 — Charles Csuri and the unlikely computer art pioneer1:13:40 — Making computer art in the 1960s1:16:49 — Why digital art history still needs to be written1:18:58 — Collecting historic computer art1:21:15 — How early digital artworks survive and are preserved1:23:28 — Charles Csuri, treasure hunting & Part Two1:25:17 — Investigating the past and rediscovering lost histories1:28:03 — Closing & Part TwoYou can find Noah on X @Noahbolanowski

Jon Wubbushi is one of the most unconventional thinkers we've spoken to.After building companies, he became known for his AI-generated artworks before unexpectedly turning his attention to theoretical physics. Today he leads a research team working on what he believes is a new framework for understanding reality itself.In this conversation we discuss creativity, AI, quantum mechanics, consciousness, religion, death, morality, and why Jon believes the next decade could fundamentally change humanity.Whether you agree with his conclusions or not, it's a fascinating conversation about some of the biggest questions we can ask.Timestamps00:00 Introduction01:20 Why Jon keeps changing careers03:30 Becoming addicted to flow05:00 From entrepreneur to AI artist06:30 The trilogy of Jon's early AI artworks09:20 The question that led him into theoretical physics10:50 Quantum mechanics and the double slit experiment explained13:15 "We may have discovered how reality works"15:00 Information, consciousness and the foundations of reality18:10 Souls, consciousness and reincarnation22:20 Entering the world of science after becoming an artist26:40 Could this discovery change humanity?29:30 Spirituality, religion and why society feels more divided34:00 AI as a reflection of humanity35:40 Does the universe have an objective morality?38:15 What happens after death?41:40 Is God real?43:20 Are all religions describing the same thing?45:30 Why Jon stopped calling himself a Christian48:20 Aliens, consciousness and advanced civilizations50:15 Is Elon Musk human?51:15 Time travel, meditation and the Monroe Institute54:30 Are we living in a simulation?55:15 Jon's biggest lesson about life58:30 Why suffering gives life meaning1:00:30 The inspiration behind Jon's newest body of workEdit This EpisodeEpisode is Not LivePublish:Aug. 04, 2026 @ 5PMEditAdd a TranscriptAdd Chapter MarkersCreate a Visual SoundbiteMid-Roll PlacementsShare Link to EpisodeEpisode Share URLCopyView in websiteDirect Link to AudioCopyDownload MP3Embed Audio PlayerWhat's NewPlatform StatsRefer a FriendAbout

In this episode, Mat Dryhurst joins us to discuss how digital art has evolved over the past decade and where it's heading next.We talk about blockchain, NFTs, AI, and the idea of protocol art - works that are defined less by a single image or object than by the rules, systems, and networks that produce them. Along the way, we discuss collecting, curation, online communities, software as an artistic medium, and why some of the most important developments in contemporary art are happening outside traditional institutions.Timestamps00:00 – Introduction01:35 – Growing up in Kuwait & finding his way into art03:09 – Collaborating with Holly Herndon for two decades05:26 – Music, software and creative beginnings09:29 – Discovering Ethereum before it launched11:07 – DAOs, crypto and building new institutions14:00 – Why ambitious artworks take years to make17:50 – Building a practice outside the traditional art world20:06 – Making artworks that exist as real software25:54 – Artist vs Creator31:04 – Is autonomous art a productive lie?35:04 – Why we value art we don't always understand41:14 – Inside *The Call* and designing participatory artworks44:45 – Why they never create work for the market48:28 – AI, backlash and losing friends53:46 – The biggest misconceptions about AI58:18 – Oxford, AI policy and the future of regulation01:01:44 – Matt Dryhurst on NFTs01:07:25 – What NFTs got right01:12:30 – Crypto art, digital ownership and why it still matters01:18:05 – Building culture on the blockchain01:23:10 – Final thoughtsConnect with Matt Dryhurst:Twitterinstagram 

00:00 – Introduction00:45 – Dropping out of art school02:20 – Family, comics & collecting05:20 – Discovering NFTs06:00 – The birth of Drifella08:45 – Ethereum, Solana & finding a community12:20 – Why the Solana art scene exploded16:30 – Building the Drifella universe20:20 – Why Drifella 3 became a breakout moment24:00 – Why trading cards?27:00 – How Card NFT is made31:00 – Burning NFTs for physical artworks33:00 – Curating 100,000+ images37:30 – AI, intuition & making images42:00 – NFTs, galleries & the future of art45:40 – Collaborating with Parker Ito49:00 – Building a community online52:00 – What's next for Evil Biscuit?55:10 – Multiple artistic identities57:00 – Closing thoughts