An Incomplete Guide to PBS - with Mike Neuder and Chris Hager

Hasu and Jon bring on Ansgar and Caspar from the Ethereum Foundation to discuss the ETH staking endgame.    Ansgar and Caspar recently published two controversial research posts which included a proposal to change Ethereum’s issuance curve. They are concerned that the current ETH staking economics could lead to nearly 100% of ETH being staked, with much of that in LSTs. They propose reducing issuance and targeting a lower stake rate.   We go deep in this episode on PoS economics, liquid staking, restaking, economic security, centralization concerns, and much more. __ Timestamps: (00:00) Intro (00:25) Possible Changes to ETH Staking?   (00:49) Overview of Current ETH Staking (16:32) LSTs & Staking Rate Increasing         (21:36) Nominal vs Real Yield (23:22) Tax Implications of Staking (27:57) Staking Demand & External Revenue (35:33) Stake Ratio Targeting (36:21) Is 100% Staking Bad? (40:05) Can ETH LSTs be Money? (55:24) Would Any Changes Make a Difference? (01:04:05) Stake Targeting (01:10:20) Will Targeting Centralize Validators? (01:22:53) Fiat Money Parallels          (01:25:16) MEV & Restaking Revenue           (01:30:52) Electra Proposal to Change Issuance (01:46:01) Security Budget & Economic Security       (01:53:40) Validator Set Quality          (01:55:10) Incentives to Maximize Validator Decentralization (02:19:00) PoS vs PoW Political Complexity __ Twitter: Hasu - https://twitter.com/hasufl Jon Charbonneau - https://twitter.com/jon_charb Uncommon Core 2.0 - https://twitter.com/UCC2_xyz Ansgar - https://twitter.com/adietrichs Caspar - https://twitter.com/casparschwa __ Referenced Materials: Endgame Staking Economics: A Case for Targeting - https://ethresear.ch/t/endgame-staking-economics-a-case-for-targeting/18751 Electra: Issuance Curve Adjustment Proposal - https://ethereum-magicians.org/t/electra-issuance-curve-adjustment-proposal/18825 Properties of issuance level: consensus incentives and variability across potential reward curves - https://ethresear.ch/t/properties-of-issuance-level-consensus-incentives-and-variability-across-potential-reward-curves/18448 __ Disclaimer: The material and information presented in this podcast is for general informational purposes only and should not be considered investment advice. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the speakers and are not the views of any entity or other person with whom the speaker is affiliated, including, without limitation, DBA Crypto, LLC. The “DBA Crypto” name and all forms thereof are the sole property of its owner, and its use does not imply endorsement of or opposition to any specific organization, product, or service.

Hasu and Jon catchup on what’s new in the EVM (Ethereum Virtual Machine) and SVM (Solana Virtual Machine) worlds. For the EVM, Ethereum has pushed vertical scaling efforts to other chains. This includes Monad, who is building a new EVM L1 with fundamental optimizations to improve scalability. For the SVM, the Solana ecosystem continues to gain momentum across the board. Meanwhile, Eclipse is gearing up to launch their SVM Ethereum L2. DBA is an investor in Eclipse Laboratories, Inc. and SOL. Jon has material personal investments in SOL, JitoSOL, ETH, stETH, and TIA. Hasu has material personal investments in ETH and Monad. __ Timestamps: (00:00) Intro (00:25) Catch up (00:56) VM Performance Improvements (02:32) Solana & Eclipse (04:26) DA vs Execution Bottlenecks (05:53) Rollups & Parallel Execution (07:10) Breakpoint (08:29) Solana & Eclipse – Competitive or Complementary? (12:48) Ethereum & Solana Funds (13:33) DBA Research Club (15:01) What is a VM? (16:33) Optimistic Parallel Execution vs. Access Lists (23:45) Solana Resource Pricing (25:03) Local Fee Markets (30:48) Liveness Failures (31:58) A Bottleneck vs. *The* Bottleneck (35:39) State Growth (41:29) Weak Statelessness (45:33) State Expiry & State Rent (51:10) Solana Un-merklizes State (51:55) Client Level Optimizations (53:45) Optimizations for New vs. Old Chains (57:17) Will Everyone Converge? (01:00:36) Outro __ Hasu - https://twitter.com/hasufl Jon Charbonneau - https://twitter.com/jon_charb Uncommon Core 2.0 - https://twitter.com/UCC2_xyz Ethereum - https://twitter.com/ethereum Solana - https://twitter.com/solana Eclipse - https://twitter.com/EclipseFND Monad - https://twitter.com/monad_xyz __ Disclaimer: The material and information presented in this podcast is for general informational purposes only and should not be considered investment advice. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the speakers and are not the views of any entity or other person with whom the speaker is affiliated, including, without limitation, DBA Crypto, LLC. The “DBA Crypto” name and all forms thereof are the sole property of its owner, and its use does not imply endorsement of or opposition to any specific organization, product, or service.

Hasu and Jon bring on Mike Neuder (Ethereum Foundation) and Chris Hager (Flashbots) to discuss the design philosophy of proposer-builder separation (PBS). They first dive into the past and present implementations of PBS, including MEV-Geth and MEV-Boost on Ethereum. Then they discuss the future of PBS - whether PBS should be enshrined, protocol-enforced proposer commitments (PEPC), PBS on L2s, how to prevent censorship, and more.  __ Timestamps: (00:00) Intro  (01:12) What is PBS? (05:37) The History of PBS (08:43) MEV-Boost (10:18) Block Production in Proof-of-Work  (11:31) Benefits of PBS (14:17) PBS Makes Based Rollups Viable (16:21) PEPC & Proposer Complexity (17:46) Other Builder Services (19:49) PBS & Regulation (22:48) Regulation & Encrypted Mempools (24:38) Division of Labor is Inevitable (26:15) Risks of PBS (29:03) Development of COre Protocol Software (33:31) PEPC, POB, & Alternatives to PBS (41:53) Decentralization vs. Usefulness Tradeoff (46:30) State of PBS in MEV-Boost (50:51) Optimistic Relays (52:09) Enshrined PBS (ePBS)  (55:55) PBS on L2 (58:47) PEPC (01:05:25) Proposer Commitments & User Intents  (01:09:03) Concluding Remarks (01:11:05) Recap (01:12:06) PEPC, PEPC-Boost, & MEV-Boost+ (01:18:44) PBS From First Principles (01:21:41) PBS is a Philosophy, Not an Implementation (01:25:44) To Enshrine, Or Not to Enshrine? (01:35:12) In-protocol vs. Out-of-protocol Development & Funding (01:50:16) Censorship & Proposer Agency (01:58:15) Outro & Disclaimer __ Hasu - https://twitter.com/hasufl Jon Charbonneau - https://twitter.com/jon_charb Uncommon Core 2.0 - https://twitter.com/UCC2_xyz Mike Neuder - https://twitter.com/mikeneuder Chris Hager - https://twitter.com/metachris __ Relays in a post-ePBS world - https://ethresear.ch/t/relays-in-a-post-epbs-world/16278 No free lunch – a new inclusion list design - https://ethresear.ch/t/no-free-lunch-a-new-inclusion-list-design/16389 Payload-timeliness committee (PTC) – an ePBS design - https://ethresear.ch/t/payload-timeliness-committee-ptc-an-epbs-design/16054 Notes on Proposer-Builder Separation (PBS) - https://barnabe.substack.com/p/pbs PEPC FAQ - https://efdn.notion.site/PEPC-FAQ-0787ba2f77e14efba771ff2d903d67e4#41230925420345af84f31b50d806b8ed PEPC Open Problems - https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/12kpwAXbZqUA0fu2HnZKSesVwO31ICbgIiacHd0EQ_fk/edit#slide=id.g2401d3821ec_1_0 PBS Guild Proposal [v3 WIP] - https://collective.flashbots.net/t/pbs-guild-proposal-v3-wip/2223 MEV-Boost+/++ - https://www.blog.eigenlayer.xyz/censorship-resistance-with-restaking/ __ Disclaimer: The material and information presented in this podcast is for general informational purposes only and should not be considered investment advice. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the speakers and are not the views of any entity or other person with whom the speaker is affiliated, including, without limitation, DBA Crypto, LLC. The “DBA Crypto” name and all forms thereof are the sole property of its owner, and its use does not imply endorsement of or opposition to any specific organization, product, or service.

In this episode, we explore Jon’s journey into crypto and our mutual passion for research and the writing process. We then give an overview over the key areas of crypto infrastructure today. Finally, we zoom into rollup decentralization roadmaps, and Jon shares a controversial new thesis about sequencer decentralization. __ Timestamps: (00:00) Intro (02:42) Interview start (03:44) Jon's work week (08:04) ChatGPT & writing (10:57) Jon's start in crypto (14:45) How to pick things to work on (17:08) Outsider's perspective on crypto (19:05) Jon's research process (22:00) Jon's proudest moment in crypto (23:06) Crypto Infrastructure overview (29:58) Why crypto infrastructure is interesting (35:57) Rollup decentralization overview (42:44) Challenges decentralizing the sequencer (47:46) Ethereum vs Cosmos approach to governance & decentralization (53:35) User ability to opt out (56:37) Staking vs. governance deciding sequencers (01:08:31) L3s (01:13:34) Superchain (01:16:38) Summary of rollup decentralization (01:21:08) Outro __ Hasu - https://twitter.com/hasufl Jon Charbonneau - https://twitter.com/jon_charb UCC2 - https://twitter.com/UCC2_xyz Website - https://ucc2.xyz __ Disclaimer: The material and information presented in this podcast is for general informational purposes only and should not be considered investment advice. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the speakers and are not the views of any entity or other person with whom the speaker is affiliated, including, without limitation, DBA Crypto, LLC. The “DBA Crypto” name and all forms thereof are the sole property of its owner, and its use does not imply endorsement of or opposition to any specific organization, product, or service.

Listen to conversations between two veterans of the crypto industry: Su Zhu, CEO and CIO of Three Arrows Capital, and Hasu, Strategy lead at Flashbots. Exploring the big ideas in crypto from first principles. In this episode, Hasu continues the conversation with Danny Ryan and Tim Beiko, two researchers from the Ethereum Foundation. The three are joined by Stephane Gosselin, co-founder of Flashbots, who makes his podcast debut and stands in as Hasu's co-host.  Together, they discuss: MEV before and after the Merge mev-boost and proposer-builder-separation (PBS) The rise of liquid staking pools Whether Lido should cap its own growth How the Ethereum Foundation sees its role in interacting with very "protocol-adjacent" projects like Flashbots + Lido SUBSCRIBE to the Podcast Apple Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/uncommon-core/id1517659188?uo=4 Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/3vuV292Him90EjQ5YL4XIw Youtube https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy8yNTc4ZDVhMC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw== Other https://anchor.fm/uncommoncore FOLLOW your hosts Su Zhu https://twitter.com/zhusu Hasu https://twitter.com/hasufl Our homepage and mailing list https://uncommoncore.co/podcast/ Transcripts, if available https://uncommoncore.co/blog/

Listen to conversations between two veterans of the crypto industry: Su Zhu, CEO and CIO of Three Arrows Capital, and Hasu, Strategy lead at Flashbots. Exploring the big ideas in crypto from first principles. In this episode, Hasu sits down with two Ethereum Foundation researchers, Danny Ryan and Tim Beiko, to explore Ethereum's upcoming transition to PoS. Topics discussed include: Why do blockchains need consensus? How does PoW consensus work today, and how will it change after PoS? What happens between the last block of PoW and the first block of PoS? The role of client modularity and diversity How to test for such an important upgrade 00:00 Intro and guests 03:02 Proof of Stake since 2017  08:18 PoS - Idea to production  12:24 Why do Blockchains need consensus? PoW & PoS Basics  22:21 Why switch to PoS?  37:03 The Merge - How does it happen?  45:14 The Merge - Unbundling of the Consensus & Execution layer  1:01:45 How do you test for such an important upgrade?  1:09:55 End SUBSCRIBE to the Podcast Apple Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/uncommon-core/id1517659188?uo=4 Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/3vuV292Him90EjQ5YL4XIw Youtube https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy8yNTc4ZDVhMC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw== Other https://anchor.fm/uncommoncore FOLLOW your hosts Su Zhu https://twitter.com/zhusu Hasu https://twitter.com/hasufl Our homepage and mailing list https://uncommoncore.co/podcast/ Transcripts, if available https://uncommoncore.co/blog/

Listen to conversations between two veterans of the crypto industry: Su Zhu, CEO and CIO of Three Arrows Capital, and Hasu, Strategy lead at Flashbots. Exploring the big ideas in crypto from first principles. In this episode: The state of our macroeconomy  Destruction of the nation-state  The rise of the Sovereign Individual  How crypto fits into all of this SUBSCRIBE to the Podcast Apple Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/uncommon-core/id1517659188?uo=4 Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/3vuV292Him90EjQ5YL4XIw Youtube https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy8yNTc4ZDVhMC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw== Other https://anchor.fm/uncommoncore FOLLOW your hosts Su Zhu https://twitter.com/zhusu Hasu https://twitter.com/hasufl Our homepage and mailing list https://uncommoncore.co/podcast/ Transcripts, if available https://uncommoncore.co/blog/

In this episode, I had the opportunity to sit down with Eli Ben-Sasson of Starkware. If you listened to my last episode with Su where we talked about the scaling approaches of different L1s blockchains compared to Ethereum, I argued that L1 blockchains do not scale and that the only way to create true scalability is to perform all of the computation off-chain and only post the results of that computation on-chain. STARKs are a technology that allows huge amounts of computation to be compressed into succinct proofs that anyone can easily verify. Our goal for this episode was to create the most approachable and comprehensive audio resource on how STARKs work and how they will scale blockchains in the future. We start by explaining inclusive accountability and the true meaning of scalability. Then we dive into STARKs, how proof systems work in general, and where they fit into the context of unbundling blockchains. Next, we use DYDX as a comprehensive case study to learn about the StarkEx system, before diving into StarkNet and its tradeoffs to StarkEx. Finally, we talk about StarkWare’s programming language Cairo and how the different costs of proving, verifying, and storage are going to scale into the future. If you’re a developer, you should also gain a very good idea of the tradeoffs between building on a regular L1 blockchain, the general-purpose StarkNet blockchain, and a StarkEx application-specific chain. Enjoy! Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 2:03 Eli’s backstory 5:27 What is computational integrity? 14:22 What are STARKs and how do they work? 29:03 How can validity proofs scale blockchains? 34:13 Looking at DYDX + StarkEx as a case study 56:20 What are the differences between StarkNet and StarkEx? 1:02:46 Cairo 1:13:52 What are the different costs for the end-user? Listen to conversations between Su Zhu, the CEO and CIO of Three Arrows Capital, and Hasu, an experienced crypto researcher and writer. Together with occasional guests, we explore the transformative nature of trust-minimized currency and financial services. SUBSCRIBE to the Podcast Apple Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/uncommon-core/id1517659188?uo=4 Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/3vuV292Him90EjQ5YL4XIw Youtube https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy8yNTc4ZDVhMC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw== Other https://anchor.fm/uncommoncore FOLLOW your hosts Su Zhu https://twitter.com/zhusu Hasu https://twitter.com/hasufl Our homepage and mailing list https://uncommoncore.co/podcast/ Transcripts, if available https://uncommoncore.co/blog/ FOLLOW the guest Eli Ben-Sasson https://twitter.com/EliBenSasson Learn about StarkNet: https://starknet.io/ Learn about Cairo programming language: https://www.cairo-lang.org/ Learn about ZK-STARK math: https://starkware.co/stark/ StarkNet Discord https://discord.gg/uJ9HZTUk2Y

In this episode What the “Crypto Villain of the Year” thinks about his image The arguments for Ethereum’s scaling roadmap The arguments for Alt L1s to out-scale Ethereum What parallels to BTC maximalism Su sees in the ETH community Listen to conversations between Su Zhu, the CEO and CIO of Three Arrows Capital, and Hasu, an experienced crypto researcher and writer. Together with occasional guests, we explore the transformative nature of trust-minimized currency and financial services. SUBSCRIBE to the Podcast Apple Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/uncommon-core/id1517659188?uo=4 Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/3vuV292Him90EjQ5YL4XIw Youtube https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy8yNTc4ZDVhMC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw== Other https://anchor.fm/uncommoncore FOLLOW on Twitter Su Zhu https://twitter.com/zhusu Hasu https://twitter.com/hasufl Our homepage and mailing list https://uncommoncore.co/podcast/ Transcripts, if available https://uncommoncore.co/blog/

With BTC and ETH making new ATHs, new and old investors are asking themselves the same question: How do you value cryptoassets? Listen to conversations between Su Zhu, the CEO and CIO of Three Arrows Capital, and Hasu, an experienced crypto researcher and writer. Together with occasional guests, we explore the transformative nature of trust-minimized currency and financial services. SUBSCRIBE to the Podcast Apple Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/uncommon-core/id1517659188?uo=4 Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/3vuV292Him90EjQ5YL4XIw Youtube https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy8yNTc4ZDVhMC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw== Other https://anchor.fm/uncommoncore FOLLOW on Twitter Su Zhu https://twitter.com/zhusu Hasu https://twitter.com/hasufl Anish https://twitter.com/_anishagnihotri Our homepage and mailing list https://uncommoncore.co/podcast/ Transcripts, if available https://uncommoncore.co/blog/