EP 121: Loving the Other Side: Leadership That Bridges Divides with Frank Anderson

As I’ve been reflecting on the past year, themes of relational trauma, betrayal trauma, and shame have come up again and again in our culture at large and in the work I do with leaders.Relational and betrayal traumas disrupt our ability to trust—ourselves, others, and even the world around us. These wounds often linger in ways we don’t fully see. They impact how we navigate relationships, handle conflict, and lead ourselves and others.And far, far too often, these unaddressed, unhealed traumas beget shame. Shame is one of the most destructive forces in leadership and relationships.When leaders operate out of shame, it’s volatile and dangerous. It hurts both those who wield it and those who experience it. Healing shame requires sharing our pain with those who have earned the right to hear our stories—those who can hold space for us with compassion, accountability, and empathy.Empathy is the antidote to shame, and it’s also what transforms leadership. Leaders who can navigate challenges with compassion, even under immense pressure, create trust, relational resilience, and growth environments.In today’s replay of my conversation with Dr. Frank Anderson, he reminds us that healing isn’t just personal—it’s deeply relational. He also offers the provocative idea that we all have the capacity to be healers and the capacity to harm.When we commit to healing, we reclaim our ability to lead with clarity, compassion, and courage.Frank Anderson, MD, completed his residency and was a clinical instructor in psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. He is an author, psychiatrist, therapist, speaker, and trauma specialist who’s spent the past three decades studying neuroscience and trauma treatment. He is passionate about teaching brain-based psychotherapy and integrating current neuroscience knowledge with the IFS therapy model. His published work spans contributions to literature and training for a clinical audience and works accessible to the general public.Content Warning: We cover some heavy topics around verbal and physical abuse, conversion therapy, and suicidal ideation. Please take care as you listen to this conversation.Listen to the full episode to hear:Why it was so important for Frank to tell his story from a place of healing and love, even for the people who hurt him the mostHow releasing fear, anger, and shame makes space for forgiveness, healing, and loveWhy forgiveness and relational healing can only come after processing and releasing the trauma of what happened within yourselfWhy Frank says that healing is possible, but we’re never done healingHow holding onto divisive binary thinking harms all of us and keeps our culture from healingHow holding space with love and empathy can help people acknowledge what happened and accept accountabilityHow unprocessed trauma causes us to repeat toxic patterns in our livesLearn more about Frank Anderson, MD:WebsiteInstagram: @frank_andersonmdFacebook: @mdfrankandersonConnect on LinkedInTo Be Loved: A Story of Truth, Trauma, and TransformationTranscending Trauma: Healing Complex Ptsd with Internal Family SystemsLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:EP 117: Rethinking Resilience: Moving from Bouncing Back to Relational Resilience with Soraya ChemalyOpen Monogamy: A Guide to Co-Creating Your Ideal Relationship Agreement, Tammy NelsonConan Gray - HeatherP!NK - TRUSTFALLFellow Travelers

When was the last time you felt truly moved by something you saw or heard?It could be a piece of art or music, a line from a book or poem, being with someone you love, or even a perfect bite of food, but those moments that stop us in our tracks are more than fleeting pleasures.These “glimmers” create space for our bodies to exhale so that we can experience wonder, awe, and joy.Learning to recognize and lean into these moments isn’t just about respite from the hard things; they help us navigate challenging times by reminding us that humans need connection, creativity, and hope. Today’s guest is a multi-disciplinary artist whose work invites us into a world of creativity and intention. It is a testament to the necessity of nurturing creativity and wonder, and what’s possible when we follow their pull as allies in our journey to love and lead with boldness and integrity.Amanda Jones is an artist, poet, and filmmaker living and working in the northern beaches of Sydney Australia. Amanda studied ‘Contemporary dance and choreography’ at the School of Creative Arts and ‘Styling and creative direction’ at Whitehouse Fashion Institute. She founded her film production company One Minute Film in 2015 working with clients such as The Iconic, Nimble Activewear, and Barre Body. In 2021 Amanda published her first book Diary of a Freelancer, its success shifted her work into her full-time art practice. Listen to the full episode to hear:How early experiences at the intersection of creativity and commerce shaped Amanda’s career trajectoryHow Amanda realized that some pieces of her journals were meant to be sharedWhy her journaling practice is vital to both her personal life and her work lifeHow Amanda approached self-publishing her book to make it a piece of art and embrace its mistakesHow balancing play and discipline as she takes on a new medium helps Amanda combat imposter syndromeHow Amanda protects her creativity and imagination despite our challenging worldLearn more about Amanda Jones:WebsiteInstagram: @amanda______jonesDiary of a FreelancerLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead, Brené BrownThe Artist's Way, Julia CameronThe Name of the Wind, Patrick RothfussBleachers - Tiny MovesDrops of GodSeinfeld

Have you ever looked around and felt that the way you live and work isn’t sustainable? It’s hard to find anyone who hasn’t felt the weight of this relentless pace and the intense pressure to keep up as if this is just how modern life has to be.But what if it doesn’t have to be this way? Our culture in the U.S. is burdened by pressures to keep up, excel, and do it all, often without the support systems to help us carry that load.What if we paused to question the assumptions driving us to stay so busy and overextended? Today’s guest invites us to imagine stepping off the hamster wheel and envisioning what it would look like to challenge the norms we’ve been handed about work and life.We can’t all pack up and move, but we can make small but powerful steps towards a more sustainable way of living, working, and leading.Kirsten Powers is a New York Times bestselling author and writes the bestselling Substack publication Changing the Channel. Jon Meacham called her most recent book, Saving Grace: Speak Your Truth, Stay Centered and Learn to Coexist with People Who Drive You Nuts, "a great gift at an urgent hour.” Kirsten served as an on-air CNN senior political analyst for seven years. She has been a columnist for USA Today, the Daily Beast and the New York Post, and a political analyst at Fox News. Before her career in journalism, Kirsten was a political appointee in the Clinton Administration, worked in New York Democratic politics and was Vice President for International Communications at AOL, Inc.Listen to the full episode to hear:Kirsten’s awakening to the fact that American culture is “not normal”How neoliberalism reshaped our relationship with work, class, and consumerismA reality check on what it takes to make radical changes in your life, at home or abroadHow unpacking paradigms about work and being busy has led Kirsten to question so many other norms in American lifeThe intense and long-term physical toll of our culture’s obsession with overworkWhat gives Kirsten hope that America can do and be better in the future Learn more about Kirsten Powers:Changing the ChannelInstagram: @kirstenpowersSaving Grace: Speak Your Truth, Stay Centered and Learn to Coexist with People Who Drive You NutsLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:The way we live in the United States is not normalThe Rise and Fall of the Neoliberal Order: America and the World in the Free Market Era, Gary GerstleNever Enough: When Achievement Culture Becomes Toxic-And What We Can Do about It, Jennifer Breheny WallaceCircle of Hope: A Reckoning with Love, Power, and Justice in an American Church, Eliza GriswoldHouse of the DragonPretty in Pink

Humans tend to crave certainty. In the face of the unknown, we rely on prescriptions and narratives to help us feel better and make sense of what we can’t yet see coming.For many, sitting with uncertainty like what we are facing now, post-election in the United States, is deeply unsettling and even destabilizing. They brace for what might come next, anxious and ruminating, and looking for answers. It’s a natural human response, but it can also leave us stuck in a loop that offers no comfort, only more fear and anxiety.People will look to the leaders around them for comfort and for answers. And while you may not be able to provide the definitive answers anyone seeks, you can help those you lead and love feel supported and grounded as we all navigate these difficult times.Today, I’m sharing strategies, practices, and thoughts that can help us move through uncertainty, for ourselves and the ones we love and lead.Listen to the full episode to hear:How and why to establish “certainty anchors” for those you leadWhy an honest, compassionate presence is more beneficial than pretending you have all the answersWhy we need to balance courage and comfort, and the fine line between caring and caretakingWhy finding grounding routines is essential, no matter how small or scrappy or imperfectHow claiming your personal power and agency will help you feel less stuckHow we build trust and resilience in our relationships amidst uncertaintyLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaFollow the Unburdened Leader on SubstackSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead, Brené BrownEP 114: Why Bother? Navigating Burnout and Rediscovering Purpose with Jennifer LoudenEP 88: Right-Use-of-Power: Navigating Leadership Dynamics with Dr. Cedar BarstowDiary of a Freelancer, Amanda JonesHope, Despair, and Wellbeing Intelligence - by Jen FisherEP 117: Rethinking Resilience: Moving from Bouncing Back to Relational Resilience with Soraya ChemalyEP 113:  Curiosity as a Bridge: Uncovering Fears and Building Connections with Scott Shigeoka

When you think about resilience, what comes to mind?Our culture loves narratives about triumphing over hardship. And overcoming pain, heartbreak, and even abuse can make us stronger.However, uplifting “overcoming” too often comes at the expense of actually examining and addressing the lack of care, protection, and support people had to navigate on their path to resilience. We valorize grit and perseverance at the cost of people’s health and wellbeing, encouraging them to just keep pushing past the point of burnout.My guest today pulls back the curtain on these narratives of overcoming adversity and building resilience to find that so much of the adversity people face is rooted in how we fail to care for ourselves and each other in our society. Real resilience, she says, isn’t about your own personal toughness; it’s about how we relate to and support each other.Soraya Chemaly is an award-winning author and activist. She writes and speaks frequently on topics related to gender norms, inclusivity, social justice, free speech, sexualized violence, and technology. She is the author of The Resilience Myth: New Thinking on Grit, Strength, and Growth after Trauma and Rage Becomes Her: The Power of Women’s Anger, which was recognized as a Best Book of 2018 by the Washington Post, Fast Company, Psychology Today, and NPR. She has contributed to several anthologies, most recently Free Speech in the Digital Age and Believe Me: How Trusting Women Can Change The World. Soraya is also a co-producer of a WMC #NameItChangeIt PSA highlighting the effects of online harassment on women in politics in America.Listen to the full episode to hear:How Soraya made the connection between our toxic ideology of resilience and how we devalue community support and careHow the idea of “bouncing back” can actually impede change, both personal and socialHow resilience narratives flatten, decontextualize, and depoliticize trauma and recovery Why we need to shift our concept of resilience from individual to communal, cultural, and relationalHow “soldiering on” can perpetuate a lack of options within the systemThe false binaries we have to confront to dismantle the resilience of the status quoHow telling someone they are or need to be resilient shuts down opportunities for real care and supportLearn more about Soraya Chemaly:WebsiteInstagram: @sorayachemalyThe Resilience Myth: New Thinking on Grit, Strength, and Growth After Trauma​​Rage Becomes Her: The Power of Women's AngerBelieve Me: How Trusting Women Can Change the WorldFree Speech in the Digital AgeLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:EP 72: Identifying and Addressing the Burdens of Individualism with Deran Young & Dick SchwartzEP 113:  Curiosity as a Bridge: Uncovering Fears and Building Connections with Scott ShigeokaSeek: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the WorldNicked, M. T. AndersonThe Light Eaters: How the Unseen World of Plant Intelligence Offers a New Understanding of Life on Earth, Zoë SchlangerKneecapChallengersSuccession The White Lotus

As the United States approaches one of the most important elections, many people I know are expressing how the current state of affairs is affecting their work, home life, and overall well-being.With the stress and the chaos, it would be easy to shut down and ask, “Why bother?”This is why it feels especially timely to bring back my long-time friend, Iowa state representative and state house minority leader, Jennifer Konfrst, to the podcast.Whether it's a major election, a looming work deadline, or a personal goal, we all carry heavy responsibilities on top of what's happening in our country. I wanted to talk to Jennifer about how she finds the strength to keep going, even when the victories are hard-won or the losses are break-your-heart big.Jennifer shares her not-so-secret recipe for staying true to her values and community, staying open and seeking support, which helps her avoid falling into despair and hopelessness. Her perspective is a source of hope, motivation, and a call to keep fighting that many of us need right now.Jennifer Konfrst teaches public relations & strategic political communication courses at Drake University in Des Moines, IA. Before joining the Drake journalism faculty in 2013, she worked in public relations for 20 years, most recently at Iowa Public Television. She also serves as an Iowa House of Representatives member, representing the 43rd district since 2019. She is the House minority leader, a position she has held since 2021, and she is the first woman to hold this position in Iowa.Listen to the full episode to hear:What the Iowa Supreme Court ruling on abortion taught Jennifer about showing up even when you’re devastated and angryThe self-care that is essential for Jennifer in the face of setbacks and struggles at the State HouseHow Jennifer builds trust in her leadership with her caucus in her role as House Minority LeaderHow consistently highlighting and celebrating even small wins helps keep people motivatedHow her personal healing work has helped Jennifer allow for disagreement and conflict within her caucusThe challenges of trust with voters, representatives across the aisle, and within her partyThe case for getting and staying engaged in politics, especially at the local levelLearn more about Jennifer Konfrst:WebsiteInstagram: @KonfrstForHouseTwitter: @KonfrstForHouseLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:EP 114: Why Bother? Navigating Burnout and Rediscovering Purpose with Jennifer LoudenEP 30: Committing to Being an Engaged Leader and Engaged Citizen with Iowa State Rep. Jennifer KonfrstThe Thin Book of Trust: An Essential Primer for Building Trust at Work, Charles FeltmanTaylor Swift - The ManThe Chicks - March MarchThe West WingSchitt’s CreekParks and Recreation

What prevents you from speaking up?When you were younger, what was your experience when you spoke up? Were you heard, or were you silenced, ignored, or punished? The echoes of earlier wounds often shape our ability to speak up. Our ability to speak up is often influenced by the burden of past experiences, whether it's in meetings, public forums, or one-on-one conversations, speaking up can feel like a significant risk when past relational traumas resurface.Even the most confident leaders may carry fears of rejection, judgment, or failure, stemming from previous experiences of not being heard or valued. We may worry about being misunderstood or feel that our words lack significance.Embracing your voice, even in the face of uncertainty, is a transformative act. It's a journey towards building more courage and leading in alignment with your values.Speaking with grounded confidence isn't just about exerting authority; it's about fostering trust, connection, and respect within yourself and with those you lead.Today’s guest lives the principles she teaches on speaking up and showing up with more power, especially for those who hold identities outside of dominant cultural norms. Her work offers us all a powerful road map for speaking up without exiling our story.Samara Bay is the author of the best-selling book, Permission to Speak, a revolutionary take on public speaking for the future we want. She is a Los Angeles-based speech coach whose clients range from candidates for US Congress to C-suite executives, change-making entrepreneurs, movie stars, and high school girls. She has led workshops and keynotes for groups across various industries, from significant corporations to nonprofit foundations and academic institutions, and her work has been widely featured in the media. Listen to the full episode to hear:How Samara’s work with emerging political leaders caused her to realize that we need to change the narrative of how authority is “supposed” to soundHow she connects losing her voice in grad school to an internalized shame of sounding “different” that people of non-dominant identities carryWhy we need to shift the narrative to allow authoritative voices to be emotionally honest and vulnerableThe value of using our voices to care out loud and to tell our storiesWhy it’s normal to sound different in various settings, as long as we aren’t compromising our integrityUnpacking common “negative” speech patterns and how they function in our communicationBreaking down the impossible balancing acts of archetypes we expect of women in powerLearn more about Samara Bay:WebsiteInstagram: @samarabayHow to Show UpConnect on LinkedInPermission to Speak: How to Change What Power Sounds Like, Starting with YouLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:A Court of Thorns and Roses, Sarah J. MaasTaylor Swift - marjorieBridgertonKids IncorporatedThe All New Mickey Mouse ClubMoms Demand ActionEP 90: Engaged and Consistent Leadership: with Moms Demand Action Founder, Shannon Watts

When was the last time you said, “Why bother?”When overwhelm, exhaustion, burnout, and the weight of responsibility set in, it's easy to become cynical and ask, "What's the point?" Cynicism can be a defense mechanism, shielding us from difficult emotions or experiences, but it also traps us in survival mode, limiting our ability to see new possibilities or paths forward. Constantly being in fight-or-flight mode makes it difficult to think long-term and to rest and reset as needed.Today, we're exploring what, "Why bother?" really indicates for leaders. It serves as a sign of exhaustion, an overactive nervous system, or even reactivated trauma. Our guest encourages us to transform "Why bother?" from a stuck and cynical question into a productive inquiry that directs us towards what truly matters.Jennifer Louden invites us to flip the script on “Why bother?” from cynical and stuck to a generative question to lead you toward what really matters to you. Jennifer has been involved in the self-care movement for years. She authored the bestseller, The Woman’s Comfort Book in 1992 and has since written numerous books on well-being and creative living, including The Woman’s Retreat Book and Why Bother? She enjoys coaching writers and is currently working on a fantasy novel where older women use their power to buy humanity time from the climate crisis.Listen to the full episode to hear:Why the “why bother” stage is a normal part of life, and how it presents an opportunity to resetHow holding too tightly to an identity can keep us from seeing possibilities for changeHow exiling and not claiming what we want leads to “why bother”How taking action on the things that matter to us cultivates hopeHow accepting that some things in life are not fixable can liberate us to step into new possibilitiesHow to begin cultivating a relationship with your desiresLearn more about Jennifer Louden:WebsiteIt's Not Too LateLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:War and Peace, Leo TolstoyFor All MankindWicked Little LettersThe Mary Tyler Moore Show

How does curiosity show up in your life, work, and relationships?Does your curiosity influence your strategy or planning? Or do you follow your curiosity to gain more knowledge or deepen your understanding of topics or viewpoints? Do you lean on curiosity to help you get to know someone better in ways that satisfy your interests or deepen your connection?Do you keep following your curiosity even if it leads to uncomfortable or unknown places?Our curiosity can reveal much about us, our interests, and our capacity for hope, discomfort, and imagination. But just as important is HOW we use our curiosity.When we wield our curiosity to prove a point, we can cause division and harm. And when we use curiosity to honor others and our vulnerability, we can build the bridges necessary to cultivate the spaces we dream about and desire.Today’s guest has combined his own lived experiences and research on curiosity and bridge-building into a powerful, nuanced book and set of practices on curiosity and how we use it in our relationships.Scott Shigeoka believes curiosity has the power to transform your life and change the world. It's the key to connection, healing, and personal growth. It's a critical practice for your relationships, leadership, and life satisfaction. In his book, Seek: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World, Scott teaches readers to strengthen their curiosity muscles with his signature DIVE method.Scott has appeared on The Today Show, Harvard Business Review, NPR, The Guardian, and CNBC, and he has spoken at Google, Microsoft, Pixar, IDEO, Meta, Airbnb, and universities and schools around the world and teaches at The University of Texas at Austin.Listen to the full episode to hear:How Scott’s cross-country road trip showed in real-time that approaching fears with curiosity builds connection, understanding, and possibilityThe limits and boundaries to approaching others with curiosity in the momentWhy we need to bring curiosity and humility when we catch our own biasesHow social and structural power dynamics influence how we balance curiosity, discomfort, and anger in a groupThree key questions to ask yourself to identify if your curiosity about another person or situation is invasive or predatoryHow letting go of certainty opens up possibilities and allows for growthLearn more about Scott Shigeoka:WebsiteSeek: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the WorldInstagram: @scottshigeokaLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader EmailResources:Rising Strong: How the Ability to Reset Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead, Brené BrownThe Making of Another Major Motion Picture Masterpiece, Tom HanksBillie Eilish - LUNCHInside Out 2Beyoncé - RENAISSANCE

What is your relationship with your dreams?Not your goals or visions for the future, but the actual dreams that appear when you sleep?Deepening our understanding of our dreams is not just a trailhead, but a transformative journey to better understanding ourselves, what drives us, what limits us, and what impacts our choices and behaviors.Today’s guest, Selden “Dee” Kelley, urges us to take the time to reflect on dreams so that we can better understand how our inner systems are processing our present and our past. He reminds us of the profound power of witnessing our subconscious burdens, a process that validates our experiences and our desire to be seen and heard.Dee is a lifelong learner. He holds five degrees in religion, psychology, an MBA, and a PhD in Industrial Psychology and Organizational Development. He served 18 years as the Pastor of the First Church of the Nazarene in San Diego and held various leadership and administration positions before becoming a pastor. He has a deep passion for helping others discover the rich guidance that dream work can provide for their journey toward health and wholeness, and helps people connect with the power of their dreams as a pathway toward new insight, better decision-making, and improved creative thinking.Content Note: Dee draws heavily from Jungian male-female archetypes. I want to note that the discussion of gender expands across the spectrum and is not limited to the male-female binary.Listen to the full episode to hear:How Dee’s approach blends hypotheses of the biological functions of dreaming and uses them in service of greater self-awarenessHow every person’s dreams have an individual dialect Advice for beginning to remember and take note of your dreamsWhy specific interpretation can matter less than the reflections the interpretation leads toHow paying attention to our dreams can help us embrace imaginative, nuanced thinkingDifferentiating between dream crushers and useful contrarian voices, in dreams and awakeLearn more about Dee Kelley:WebsiteInstagram: @drdeedreamscoachLearn more about Rebecca:rebeccaching.comWork With RebeccaSign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader Email.Resources:What Dreams May ComeInception