Build - The three ELTV formulas every HR leader should know: Jessica Zwaan (Author, Built For People & COO, Talentful)

Jessica Zwaan, Author of Built for People & COO at Talentful, joined us on The Modern People Leader.We talked about AI adoption in HR, from policy design to hands-on building. We explored the “Wild West” of AI use, tool selection, overcoming the stigma of ‘cheating,’ and practical frameworks like the 4Bs (Bot, Build, Borrow, Buy) to guide adoption and innovation.---- Sponsor Links:🔗 Request a demo of Workleap.MPL Links:🔗 Sign up for the MPL Insider Guide for HR Tech.🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live New York.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (07:07) Kicking off the AI Wild West discussion in HR(09:10) “AI abstinence” vs. open use – two ends of the spectrum(12:00) No new ideas – why blocking AI is like banning books(17:05) Stigma around AI use and feelings of ‘cheating’(20:18) AI as an Iron Man suit, not Ultron – decision-making analogy(22:29) Org-wide vs. departmental AI policies(24:20) Jessica’s HR AI stack: Sana, ODA, BrightHire, ChatGPT(26:11) Why GPT was chosen over other LLMs(29:37) Functional flexibility in AI tool adoption(31:58) Privacy, disclosure, and “don’t be dumb” rules(33:15) The 4Bs framework – Bot, Build, Borrow, Buy(36:51) Different levels of “build” – from zaps to full applications(41:59) Why not to fear losing custom AI knowledge when employees leave(46:43) Borrowing vs. buying – making smart investment decisions(48:41) Avoiding “hire first” thinking – the Mythical Man Month(53:28) How to start: planning, tool exploration, and playful learning(56:05) Voice note + walk workflow for AI productivity---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Pilar Muner, VP of People & Talent at ChartHop, joined us on The Modern People Leader.We covered:- Why fractional work isn’t always the burnout cure-all it’s made out to be-How ChartHop is using AI to power HR workflows in-house- The AI vendor checklist every HR leader needs — what to ask, what to watch for, and how to cut through the hypeIf you’re evaluating AI tools for your people team, this episode will give you a practical lens on security, data integrity, and what to prioritize in vendor selection.---- Sponsor Links:🔗 Request a demo of ChartHop.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live New York.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (10:56) Pilar’s Journey: From law aspirations to falling into HR(13:07) Career Philosophy: “Just say yes” and the path through early-stage companies(15:07) Why Pilar Went Fractional: A health-focused shift, not burnout(17:18) Accidental Fractional Life: A few lucky client handoffs snowball(18:46) Is Fractional Less Stressful? The importance of boundaries(20:45) HR for HR: Why burnout doesn’t disappear without behavior change(23:39) Boundary setting and designing your own career(25:09) ChartHop Time: The magic of internal and external facing people ops(26:37) Product Deep Dive: ChartHop’s back-end data architecture explained(28:36) Why ChartHop is Built for AI from the Ground Up(30:30) Empathy in HR Tech: ChartHop’s internal culture surprises(32:27) ChartHop for Builders: Why it clicks for HR innovators(35:42) Pilar’s AI Takeaways: Sophisticated people analytics—even at 25 people(37:22) AI + HR Data: Beyond dashboards into contextual intelligence(39:30) The Risks of Uploading Data to Public LLMs(41:47) What ChartHop Does to Keep Client Data Secure(44:51) Questions HR Leaders Should Ask AI Vendors(47:21) Is HR Ready for AI? Why sitting on the sidelines isn’t safe(49:08) Use Case Example: AI-powered performance review feedback(51:09) Human Judgment Still Required: Don’t rely solely on AI(52:52) The Importance of Judicious AI Prompts in HR(53:19) ChartHop’s View on AI Front Doors & Model Context Protocols(55:37) Internal Testing: ChartHop dogfoods its own platform with Salesforce, NetSuite, and Gong(58:38) Favorite Use Case: Performance reviews written with AI accuracy(01:02:21) Engagement Survey in 3 Hours Instead of 50(01:04:46) ChartHop Use Cases: The AI-powered HRBP assistant(01:07:09) Treating AI like your own HRBP: Macro-level strategy(01:11:38) GenAI as HR for HR: Scenario planning and internal insights(01:15:04) Weekly Check-Ins: AI helps prioritize which employees need attention(01:16:13) Rapid Fire: Pilar’s one big takeaway—just try(01:18:22) Superpower Nickname: The Force or The Inspirer(01:20:12) Strategy to Steal: Zapier’s AI-first approach(01:21:54) Shoutouts: 5 emerging HR leaders you should know---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

JooBee Yeow joined us on The Modern People Leader to talk about why HR must stop overfunctioning and start diagnosing real business problems—especially when revenue is on the line. We discussed how HR leaders can step out of their silo, challenge assumptions, influence revenue growth, and flip the HR pyramid to prioritize high-impact, strategic work.---- Sponsor Links:🔗 Request a demo of Workleap.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live New York.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (06:23) JooBee’s Career Journey: From Systems Engineer to Strategic HR Leader(08:34) What JooBee Learned from Partnering with CTOs over CHROs(11:48) Stephen’s Experience Managing Engineers as a CEO(14:07) Preferential Treatment or Strategic Blindspots in Tech-Heavy Teams(18:08) What JooBee Is Building: Bootcamp, Community, and Mini MBA(24:31) Why HR Gets Stuck at 50 Employees: Common Traps at Growth Stage(29:33) Same Problems, New Labels: From Headcount to AI Adoption(30:33) The Two Questions Every People Leader Must Ask(32:25) Strategic Planning ≠ Strategic Thinking: Escaping Operational Loops(34:26) The HR Hierarchy of Needs & Flipping the Pyramid(44:46) Stop Playing Admin: Behaviors That Keep HR Operational(47:29) Writing in Anger: The Story Behind JooBee’s “Drive Revenue” Newsletter(50:57) What to Do When You Won’t Hit Revenue Targets This Quarter(54:17) Where Is Revenue Leaking? 4 Common Scenarios(56:09) Don’t Start with “How”—Diagnose First(59:26) Tactical Advice: How to Be Curious and Find the Right People to Ask---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more

Tiffany Stevenson, former Chief People Officer at WeightWatchers and Patreon, joined us on The Modern People Leader. We talked about this being the CHROs toughest chapter yet, how AI is reshaping HR, and what HR brings to the boardroom.---- Sponsor Links:🔗 Request a demo of ChartHop.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live New York.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (09:35) Tiffany’s career story: From Mirage Resorts to Sephora, Box, Patreon, WW(14:34) First career break & adjusting to downtime(16:59) Learning phase: Board readiness program & executive compensation course(19:01) Why being a CHRO is harder now than during the pandemic(23:49) Reframing today’s challenges as opportunities(25:11) Stephen’s thoughts on AI transformation as a once-in-a-generation shift(28:51) Finding focus amid economic, policy, and AI noise(31:36) Tiffany’s current purpose: Leading people through transformations(33:19) Defining individual purpose & aligning with business transformation(35:21) Why she chose to invest in human-centered board skills(37:48) What board service training looks like(39:34) Realizing CHROs often undersell their impact to boards(42:46) How to position yourself for board service(46:20) Typical board makeup & where CHRO expertise fits(49:21) Misconceptions about board work & time commitment---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Priscila Bala, CEO of LifeLabs Learning, joined us on The Modern People Leader.We explored how AI is transforming learning, the enduring role of middle management, and why the most impactful leadership skills are more human than ever.---- Resources Mentioned:🔗 Sign up for LifeLabs Learning’s Culture Club.Sponsor Links:🔗 Request a demo of Workleap.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live New York.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (07:25) Priscila’s Career Journey: From VC to CEO of LifeLabs(10:57) What LifeLabs Learning Does and Their Training Philosophy(13:10) Segue to AI: “Artificial Interns” and the Human Advantage(17:42) The Emotional Edge of In-Person Learning & Why AI Can’t Replicate That(21:52) Vibe Coding, Demo Days, and the Role of Human Feedback(24:34) What AI Can’t Replace: Judgment, Context & Culture(26:31) Why Priscila is Giddy About AI’s Impact on Human Skills(29:07) DIY Learning Teams: Practical Tips & The Q-Step Tool(31:30) The Secret Sauce Behind LifeLabs’ Facilitators(35:05) Priscila’s Personal “Aha” Moments as a Former Client(37:21) Middle Management: From Crisis to AI-Era Relevance(43:25) The Real Pain for Managers Today: Overwhelm & Role Clarity(47:29) Will New Careers Move Away From Management?(49:56) Reskilling in the Age of AI: How Managers Can Navigate Change(54:22) Resources Mentioned: Culture Club & Train-the-Trainer Preview(55:47) Rapid Fire: HR Advice, Superpowers, and Dream Guest---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn---- Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.

Jenny Molyneaux, VP of People at Vercel, joined us on The Modern People Leader.We talked about why AI is replacing HR tech spend before headcount, how Vercel’s people team is building custom AI tools to replace expensive SaaS products, and what HR leaders can do to start building with AI today.---- Sponsor Links:🔗 Get your free 30-day Synthesia account.🔗 Request a demo of ChartHop.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live New York.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (07:36) Jenny’s Career Journey: From Google to Startups & VP of People at Vercel(16:17) Lessons Learned as a People Team of One(21:37) What Vercel Does Explained Simply(28:15) How AI Will Cut Spend Before Headcount in HR(33:13) Cost Savings from Building Internal AI Tools Instead of Buying SaaS(37:22) Creating a Company Culture of AI Adoption(40:17) The Future of B2B Tech: Customization, Forking, and AI Marketplaces(44:23) Customizing Engagement Surveys for Better Insights(49:44) Jenny’s “Manager Stack” Vision for AI-Driven Performance Management(53:40) How to Start Building Internal Tools with AI(56:50) Advice for HR Leaders: Just Start Building---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn

Geanne Weaver-Hepler (Director of EX, Charlie Health), Allison Vendt (VP, People Ops & Head of EX at Dropbox), Nick Freeman (Co-CEO, Marco), and Brian Elliott (CEO, Work Forward) joined us to talk about what’s broken with employee connection—and how to fix it. We explored practical frameworks for offsites, hybrid team building, and creating meaningful connection moments across distributed workforces.---- Sponsor Links:🔗 Request a demo of Workleap.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live New York.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (06:00) Why we stopped talking about connection—and why that’s a mistake(08:00) Gallup data: engagement is falling, especially for managers(10:00) Geanne on building connection at scale at Charlie Health(13:00) From Airbnb bonding to 400-person team offsites(14:00) Dropbox’s shift from office-first to virtual-first with intentional team gatherings(16:00) The importance of milestone-based anchor weeks(17:00) Nick: What makes an offsite successful? Frequency, location, and shared space(19:00) Using AI to plan team retreats faster and smarter(20:00) Lessons learned: The pendulum swings of remote, RTO, and hybrid(22:00) Brian: Airbnb’s team cadence model and the importance of rhythm(25:00) Dropbox’s “gathering matrix” and designing for outcomes(27:30) Virtual connection challenges & async collaboration tips(30:00) Why structured rituals help sustain remote trust(32:00) Peer learning over presentations: How Charlie Health restructured their offsites(33:30) Role-playing, competition, and fun as part of sales team development(36:00) Common offsite pitfalls: over-indexing on logistics, under-indexing on experience(37:00) How to save 20–30% on offsites by avoiding weekends & bundling bookings(39:00) Q&A: What to say to executives who don’t see the value in connection(41:00) Q&A: How Dropbox uses Slack, swag, and planning to drive pre-event excitement(43:00) Q&A: Aligning in-office vs. remote culture differences(45:00) Q&A: Measuring success with post-event surveys and engagement impact(48:00) Q&A: Designing experiences for introverts and overstimulated employees(50:00) Playbooks: Charlie Health’s tiered gathering strategy & Founders Trip(51:00) Dropbox’s Offsite-in-a-Box and Virtual First Toolkit(53:00) Why group travel is the fastest-growing segment of corporate spend(54:00) Tips for booking better hotels, avoiding weekend rates, and maximizing ROI---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn

Jessica Zwaan, COO at Whereby, joined us again on The Modern People Leader for a deep dive into Employee Lifetime Value (ELTV). We explored how HR leaders can adapt marketing-style metrics like LTV to CAC for talent, the different ways to calculate it, and how the process itself can reshape how People teams think about value, cost, and impact.---- Sponsor Links:🔗 Request a demo of ChartHop.🔗 Get your free 30-day Synthesia account.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live New York.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (05:45) Wrapping up Jessica’s second book & reflections on avoiding hustle culture(06:31) How to balance multiple big projects without burning out(07:42) Personal habits that help prevent hustle culture(09:16) Stephen on using “extra time” with intention(11:29) Mary Oliver’s “Don’t Hesitate” poem and finding joy in work(13:02) Daniel on keeping play in work despite business growth pressures(14:05) Segue to main topic: Employee Lifetime Value (ELTV)(15:26) Why ELTV sparks debate and common misconceptions(16:25) Treating ELTV conversations like an AMA to address objections(17:05) Behind-the-scenes of Stephen’s LinkedIn post that started the conversation(18:21) Image generation with Midjourney & content process for MPL Build(21:42) Different ways to calculate ELTV depending on company context(24:23) Why People teams resist new metrics compared to Marketing teams(27:56) The value of the calculation process itself for HR teams(29:13) Why ELTV is calculated on an aggregate, not individual, basis(31:55) The halo effect of great employees & intangible impacts on value(32:29) Breaking ELTV down by department, team, or cohorts(36:27) Core cost factors in ELTV: recruiting, onboarding, L&D, benefits, comp(39:12) Why knowing cost per employee matters beyond ELTV(40:50) Tracking ELTV with different financial baselines (revenue vs. EBITDA)(43:32) The “gold standard” three-to-one LTV-to-CAC ratio and when to adjust it(44:58) Similar or alternative metrics for different business models(46:05) Why each company’s key metrics should look different(47:15) Recognizing others who pioneered ELTV concepts(48:22) Final advice: ELTV is a compass, not a map---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn

Joanne Rodgers, CHRO of New York Life, joined us on The Modern People Leader to share how her 30-year journey at the company led her from securities regulation to the C-suite. We talked about the DNA of New York Life’s culture, how they’re rolling out AI tools company-wide, and why HR must lead the charge in this era of transformation.---- Sponsor Links:🔗 Request a demo of Workleap.🔗 Get your free 30-day Synthesia account.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live New York.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (06:51) Joanne’s Career Journey: From Securities Regulator to CHRO(09:43) Career Hub and Recognizing Hidden Potential in Employees(11:46) What is New York Life? Products, Distribution, and Secret Sauce(12:53) Innovation at a 180-Year-Old Company(14:25) Culture at New York Life: Relationship-Centric and Supportive(16:31) Formal & Informal Structures That Fuel Career Growth(19:10) Empowering Your Growth: The Ecosystem (Performance, AI, Career Hub, Leadership)(22:13) Real-World Use of Eightfold AI for Internal Mobility(24:19) Why Skills Visibility Drove the AI-Powered Career Hub(26:42) Metrics of Success and Anecdotal Wins from Gig Projects(28:40) Younger Talent, AI Anxiety, and Supporting New Grads(30:53) AI Tools, Mindset Shift & Connor Grennan’s Influence(33:44) Organizational AI Readiness and Excitement(34:54) Governance, Training, and AI Adoption at Sale(37:48) ELT Buy-In: How Senior Leadership Went All-In on AI(41:50) Net New Skills, AI Champions, and Future-Proofing with Career Hub(44:04) The HR Role in AI Transformation(46:24) 2025 Priorities: Empowering Growth as a Fully-Integrated Ecosystem(47:58) AI Coaching for Leadership Development(50:28) Advice to HR Leaders on Starting Their AI Journey---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn

Jennifer Henderson (CEO, Tilt), Jessica Winder (SVP People, CoLab Software), Allison Whalen (CEO, Parentaly), and Justin Clifford (CEO, Bereave) joined us to talk about what most companies get wrong when it comes to employee leave. We discussed parental and bereavement leave through a human lens—from compliance and continuity to return-to-work strategies and performance review pitfalls.---- 🔗 Go download Tilt's Modern HR Leader's Guide to Leave that Works - this is a full recap of this conversation. ---- Sponsor Links:🔗 Request a demo of ChartHop.MPL Links:🔗 Buy your ticket for MPL Live New York.🔗 Go sign up for MPL Build.---- (06:26) The 3 core challenges of employee leave: compliance, continuity, and care(09:58) What “support” actually looks like during leave, not just compliance(16:09) Real-life examples of how broken leave policies hurt employee trust(18:57) Bereavement leave: why 51% of people leave their jobs within a year of loss(21:09) Building better return-to-work frameworks and communication plans(23:56) “Did you know?” HR comms and surfacing underused employee benefits(25:38) The manager’s role: why they’re the most powerful force during leave(26:49) Jessica’s childcare breakdown story + creative leave support solutions(30:22) Small, meaningful ways to show real care during a return to work(32:02) Why policies mean nothing without psychologically safe manager behavior(34:14) Performance reviews: how leave-related bias undermines careers(36:16) The need for written re-onboarding plans for every returning employee(37:42) The “10x” moment: leave as a defining employer brand experience(40:52) Why many managers never wanted to manage people—and how that shows up(43:44) SOPs for grief: standardizing human touch, not just tasks(44:57) Why outsourcing leave support can actually free managers to show up better(46:48) What not to do: excluding managers from leave conversations entirely(48:14) The untapped business value in training middle managers(50:04) Jessica’s fears returning from leave as a senior executive(52:12) Why sales comp during leave is never perfect—but always worth refining(54:45) Err on the side of employee-favorable: retention > replacement(56:07) Every leave situation is different—so start planning 3–4 months ahead---- 📬 Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to get episode recaps💡 Follow The Modern People Leader on LinkedIn😊 Follow Daniel Huerta on LinkedIn😊 Follow Stephen Huerta on LinkedIn