Oaktree Sees Companies in Trouble as Rates Stay High

Private credit could become a $40 trillion market in five years, according to Apollo Global Management. “We’re going to get there really soon,” Akila Grewal, the firm’s global head of credit product, tells Bloomberg News’ James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence analyst Matt Geudtner in the latest Credit Edge podcast. Currently, “we estimate it’s a $20 trillion market,” she adds, referring to asset-based finance. Grewal and Geudtner also discuss relative risk and returns between public and private markets, retail investment, real estate opportunities, advantages for borrowers to raising capital privately and the fundraising environment. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Credit spreads are poised to hit record tight levels in the first quarter, even as debt issuance rises, according to participants in this special 2025 outlook edition of the Credit Edge podcast, hosted by Bloomberg’s James Crombie. We discuss bonds, loans, private credit — and bourbon — with the following guests: Kathy Jones, chief fixed income strategist at the Schwab Center for Financial Research; Ana Arsov, global head of private credit at Moody’s; Matt Brill, Invesco’s head of North America investment-grade credit; Meghan Robson, BNP Paribas’ head of US credit strategy; Meghan Graper, global head of debt capital markets at Barclays; Winnie Cisar, global head of strategy at CreditSights; Matt Mish, head of credit strategy at UBS; Oleg Melentyev, Bank of America’s head of high-yield credit strategy; and Aidan Cheslin, senior credit analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Swelling demand for limited supply of corporate bonds and loans could spell trouble for credit markets, according to PineBridge Investments. “The thing that gives me a lot of pause right now — and some concern — is the lack of net new supply versus the amount of demand out there,” said Jeremy Burton, the firm’s portfolio manager for US high yield and leveraged loans. “That leads to the risk that the market as a whole will make subpar credit decisions,” he tells Bloomberg News’ James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence senior credit analyst Jody Lurie, in the latest Credit Edge podcast. Burton and Lurie also discuss the state of the consumer, default rates, coercive liability management, as well as risks in the media, health care and software sectors.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Real estate and private equity are a better investment than direct lending, according to JPMorgan Asset Management. Those two have repriced on higher rates, while private credit hasn’t, Gabriela Santos, the firm’s chief market strategist for the Americas tells Bloomberg News’ James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence senior credit analyst Robert Schiffman, in the latest Credit Edge podcast. “It’s been interesting to see signs that actually commercial real estate seems to be bottoming and turning around,” said Santos. Santos and Schiffman also discuss the likelihood of bond spreads staying tight, CCC bond risk, the market impact of trade wars and the technology sector debt outlook.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Homeowners cashing out after a surge in real estate prices presents a major opportunity for debt investors, according to TPG Angelo Gordon. “We’re seeing the evolution of home equity products,” said TJ Durkin, the firm’s head of structured credit and specialty finance. “There could be $150 to $200 billion of origination per year, with a $2 trillion really addressable market there,” Durkin tells Bloomberg News’ James Crombie and Carmen Arroyo, and Bloomberg Intelligence senior credit analyst David Havens in the latest Credit Edge podcast. Durkin and Havens also discuss private debt, asset-based finance, commercial real estate, M&A and residential solar energy.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Private credit to risky borrowers that need a lifeline is poised to boom as rates stay high, according to Oaktree Capital Management. “You’re going to see a lot of what they call rescue financing,” said David Rosenberg, head of liquid performing credit at Oaktree. “That’s going to be one of the greatest opportunities we’ve seen in a decade.” Loans to troubled companies will focus on sectors that have seen most leveraged buyout activity, like technology and health care, Rosenberg tells Bloomberg News’ James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence senior credit analyst Jean-Yves Coupin in the latest Credit Edge podcast. Rosenberg and Coupin also discuss liability management, creditor-on-creditor violence, private debt stress, the M&A outlook, European investment opportunities and geopolitical risks.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sustainable finance can keep growing despite potential headwinds from the next US administration, according to Nikko Asset Management. “If the political side is not asking for disclosure on strategies and updates on ESG, we as portfolio managers have to ask,” said Holger Mertens, Nikko’s head of global credit, referring to environmental, social and governance standards. “It’s our job to make sure we’re buying assets at the right price,” Mertens tells Bloomberg News’ James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence senior credit analyst Tolu Alamutu in the latest Credit Edge podcast. Mertens and Alamutu also discuss ESG debt returns, energy transition, issuance forecasts and real estate risks such as stranded assets.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The US economy heading for a potentially “turbulent landing” may spell trouble for junk bonds, according to Colleen Cunniffe, head of global taxable credit research at Vanguard. “We’re actually relatively cautious on high yield at the moment from a broad perspective,” Cunniffe tells Bloomberg News’ James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence’s Himanshu Bakshi in the latest Credit Edge podcast. The world’s second-largest asset manager prefers debt rated BBB, bonds from utilities and banks, as well as asset-backed securities in the auto sector. Cunniffe and Bakshi also discuss commercial mortgage-backed securities, the impact of consumer stress on bank asset quality and emerging markets. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lending directly to middle-market US-based companies is the best opportunity in credit markets, offering double-digit yields, according to Randy Schwimmer, vice chairman at Churchill Asset Management. “We probably only have a small handful of lenders that we’re competing against,” Schwimmer tells Bloomberg News’ James Crombie and Bloomberg Intelligence’s Mike Holland in the latest Credit Edge podcast. “This right now is undiscovered value that is hiding in plain sight,” added Schwimmer, whose firm specializes in mid-market debt deals. Schwimmer and Holland also discuss loan margin and covenant trends, fundraising, private credit innovation, the impact of higher-for-longer rates and regulation. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Reports of active management's demise have been greatly exaggerated. Active continues to grow and evolve in ETFs while mutual funds prosper and define benefit plans. Bloomberg Intelligence strategy team uncover active opportunities and glean insights from active managers and those who cover the industry. Listen to Inside Active by Bloomberg Intelligence. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.