The Salt Stones: Seasons of a Shepherd’s Life with HELEN WHYBROW

"To be in the process of making things, to be in the process of talking to people about what things mean. The creative process is actually, I think, the most meaningful part of life, but it's very hard to measure. When we get shoved towards a world that demands easy measurables, it's very hard to optimize away from the creative process and optimize towards things that are more static."On this episode of The Creative Process, philosopher C. Thi Nguyen joins us to discuss his new book, The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else's Game. He unpacks the profound concept of "value capture"—the moment we stop caring about the rich, subtle experiences of life and start obsessing over simplified, external metrics like grades, likes, and screen time.Beyond the trap of quantification, C. Thi Nguyen explores the liberating power of games and art. We discuss how true play requires us to step lightly between different rule sets, the difference between art and craft, and how reclaiming our creative process might just be the ultimate meaning of life.(0:00) THE TRAP OF VALUE CAPTURE How external metrics and scoring systems hijack our personal values and creativity(7:09) THE LOGIC OF QUANTIFICATION Why simple numbers travel well but strip away vital human context, from screen time to grades(11:58) THE MAGIC CIRCLE OF PLAY Understanding the difference between a gamified life and the true, disattached beauty of struggle(14:57) ART, CRAFT, AND METRICS Why taking the hard way leads to genuine creative expression, and how to spot value-laden systems(19:34) THE POLITICS OF MEASUREMENT Questioning the assumption that complex human traits, like IQ or consciousness, can be quantified on a single scale(21:31) THE SPIRIT OF PLAY Using constraints to boost collaborative storytelling and learning to step lightly between different rule worldsEpisode Websitewww.creativeprocess.info/podInstagram:@creativeprocesspodcast

We live in a world obsessed with tracking. From our sleep scores to our social media engagement, invisible systems constantly quantify our worth. But when we replace our deepest values with these thin, easily measurable numbers, we lose a part of our humanity. It is time to step outside the magic circle of optimization and reclaim the unstructured joy of being alive. C. Thi Nguyen is a philosopher whose work gets to the heart of the invisible structures that define modern life. He first established himself as a food writer, exploring the sensory world, before turning his intellectual gaze toward the philosophy of games and agency. He’s the author of Games: Agency As Art.His new book is The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else's Game.He argues that when we simplify our values for the sake of a leaderboard, something inside the human spirit begins to die. In it, he explores a concept called "value capture"—the moment we stop caring about the experience and start obsessing over the metric. He joins me now to discuss how we can lead a playful, spontaneous life without getting lost in the scoring systems of the 21st century.(0:00) THE MEANING OF LIFE IS THE CREATIVE PROCESS Why the most valuable parts of life are impossible to measure(6:46) VALUE CAPTURE DEFINED How external metrics and institutional scoring systems take over our personal values(11:38) THE METRICS WE LIVE BY The invisible toll of screen time, credit scores, and daily optimization(19:44) THE LOGIC OF QUANTIFICATION Why simple numbers travel well but strip away vital human context(24:13) THE MAGIC CIRCLE OF PLAY Understanding the difference between a gamified life and the true beauty of struggle(31:56) ART AS A GAME How taking the hard way and avoiding efficiency leads to genuine creative expression(38:48) THE POLITICS OF TECHNOLOGY Why tools and systems like factories and databases are never truly value-neutral(44:23) AI AND HUMAN CREATIVITY Navigating the tension between automated efficiency and expressive human art(50:44) THE POLITICS OF IQ Questioning the assumption that complex human traits can be measured on a single scale(1:01:12) NARRATIVE SCAFFOLDING How structured constraints in role-playing games can actually boost collaborative storytelling(1:10:00) THE SPIRIT OF PLAY Stepping lightly between different rule worlds and reclaiming our agencyEpisode Websitewww.creativeprocess.info/pod@creativeprocesspodcast

Are the walls of our most celebrated museums actually monuments to wealth extraction and labor suppression? How did the violent union-busting tactics of the 19th-century robber barons pave the way for modern philanthropy? And what happens when we expose the hidden racial capitalism behind the "genius" of modern art?In this episode of the Speaking Out of Place podcast, Professor David Palumbo-Liu talks with Eunsong Kim about her stunning book, The Politics of Collecting: Race & the Aestheticization of Property. It is remarkable in its theoretical conceptualization, argument, and archival work. Kim argues that the beginnings of elite art collection in the United States coincided with the rise of the robber barons and the suppression of the labor movement. She connects this to Taylorism and the idea of scientific management, that further extenuated the rift between the mind and the body, between intellectual activity and labor. Not coincidentally, this distribution of kinds of work created a new distribution of value. In each case, Kim argues, race played a fundamental role. Ranging from the “found” art of Duchamp to the pseudo-Marxist conceptual art of Sierra, Kim eviscerates both pretention and cruelty, and restores the laboring body and what it produces to prominence, along with a truly reinvigorated and capacious sense of the Imagination outside of the constraints of neoliberal aesthetics.(0:00) The Politics of Collecting(2:16) The Rise of the Museum Form How art spaces are fundamentally tied to racial capitalism and settler colonialism(5:18) Carnegie, Frick, and the Homestead Strike, Violent de-unionization of steelworkers that preceded modern philanthropic projects(10:04) Taylorism and Scientific Management How Frederick Taylor's experiments sought to separate "mind work" from "hand work"(13:00) The De-skilling of Labor(16:11) The PR of Robber Barons(19:42) Duchamp and the Illusion of Meritocracy(26:17) Racial Violence and the "Ready-Made" Reading Duchamp's Fountain through the lens of segregation and white freedom(32:26) Santiago Sierra and Neoliberal Aesthetics Critiquing art that replicates capitalism by enacting humiliation on marginalized and precarious workers(43:12) Artists vs. Workers at the Whitney, 1969 anti-Vietnam War protest(47:58) Professors as Managers On private university labor laws, unionization, and the weaponization of the "manager" title(51:24) AI and the Alienation of ThoughtEpisode Websitewww.palumbo-liu.com https://speakingoutofplace.com Bluesky @palumboliu.bsky.social@speaking_out_of_place

Have we forgotten how to truly participate in the natural world? What can the ancient practice of shepherding teach us about ecological healing? How does physical labor connect us to the land, memory and belonging?In this episode of the Speaking Out of Place podcast, Professor David Palumbo-Liu speaks with Helen Whybrow about her book, The Salt Stones: Seasons of a Shepherd’s Life. Besides being a detailed account of the day to day, season by season life on her farm, where she and her family raise sheep, build a broad community, and maintain Knoll Farm, a center for activists, writers, artists and others to share ideas on how to promote healthier and more just ways of living together and in the environment, The Salt Stones is at base about the ways we are losing a sense of belonging, not only with others and with other forms of life on this planet, but also with the cycles of existence, of life and of death. Whybrow shows time and again that it is mostly a matter of developing ways of seeing and noticing what is all around us, and learning about and respecting the ways that generations of people and non-human animals have existed together in sustainable and mutually-dependent ways.Helen Whybrow is a writer, editor and organic farmer whose book about shepherding, land and belonging, The Salt Stones, was longlisted for the National Book Award and chosen as a New Yorker Best Book of 2025. Her other titles include Dead Reckoning (W. W. Norton, 2001) and A Man Apart (Chelsea Green, 2015). She has a master’s in journalism and has taught writing at Middlebury College and the Breadloaf Environmental Writer’s Conference. She and her family farm and steward a refuge for land justice at Knoll Farm in Fayston, Vermont.(0:00) The Salt Stones(2:50) A Lifelong Love of Land and Language(6:50) The Cord: A Story of Lambing and Life(13:40) Literary Influences and Jean Giono(18:15) The Erased Work of Nature(20:30) Radical Intimacy and Participation(23:45) Measuring Diminishment and Listening to Nature(25:15) Lita the Ewe and Complex Ecosystems(29:17) Kulning: The Lost Art of Herding Songs(32:15) Embodied Memory and Physical Labor(37:45) The True Meaning of Belonging(43:30) Radical Hospitality at Noel Farm(46:15) Kinship Episode Website www.palumbo-liu.comhttps://speakingoutofplace.com Bluesky @palumboliu.bsky.social Instagram @speaking_out_of_place

What happens when Mexico's future president lands in New Orleans, a city of operas, slave markets, and radical musical invention? A man who spoke a variant of Zapotec and read the French philosophers of the Enlightenment finds himself adrift in the hallucinatory swamps of New Orleans.In this episode of Speaking Out of Place podcast, Professor David Palumbo-Liu speaks with novelist, essayist, and scholar Yuri Herrera about his new novel, Season of the Swamp, which is a deeply researched and dazzlingly imagined account of Benito Juarez’s time spent in exile in New Orleans. We learn about what that time and place offered to Juarez’s understanding of a world coming into being—one of créolité and carnival, of mixedness and multiplicity, and what these sometimes hallucinatory moments offered his political vision. They talk about what kinds of new visions of freedom are discovered in the midst of forms of slavery that horrify Juarez. We hear how all of this relates to the present day—to the genocide in Gaza, the violent ICE attacks in the United States, and the descent into unbridled, and unmasked fascism.Yuri Herrera's first three novels have been translated into several languages: Kingdom Cons, Signs Preceding the End of the World, and Transmigration of Bodies. In 2016 he shared with translator Lisa Dillman the Best translated Book Award for the translation of Signs Preceding the End of the World. That same year he received the Anna Seghers Prize at the Academy of Arts of Berlin, for the body of his work. His latest books are A Silent Fury: The El Bordo Mine Fire, Ten Planets, and Season of the Swamp. He is a professor of creative writing and literature at Tulane University, in New Orleans.(0:00) The Season of the Swamp(3:55) Benito Juarez’s Life, his indigenous roots and his conflict with dictator Santana.(7:00) Yuri Herrera's relationship with New Orleans and the theme of extreme migration.(11:00) An Accidental Avant-Garde How the clash of European classical music and African drumming in Congo Square created a new space for imagination.(15:30) Individual Freedom vs. Slavery(19:30) Ocampo the Socialist Vampire Slayer Symbolic dreams in the novel and the rebellious resilience of New Orleans.(24:10) The Art of Translation(27:25) Reading from the novel(33:30) Democratizing the Gaze Why the author chose not to use Juarez's name in order to strip away the monument and reveal the tender, perceptive migrant.(39:30) Modern Fascism and Cruelty Connecting history to the ICE attacks and global resistance.(45:00) The Last Gringo Reflecting on a short story about language, power and the changing face of America. www.palumbo-liu.comhttps://speakingoutofplace.com Bluesky @palumboliu.bsky.social @speaking_out_of_place

Today, on International Women's Day, we hear from writers, artists, filmmakers and activists who have used their work to question old hierarchies and give expression to the fullness of women’s experiences.(0:00) Manuela Lucà-Dazio  (Exec. Director, Pritzker Architecture Prize · Fmr. Exec. Director, Dept. of Visual Arts & Architecture · Venice Biennale) on Analyzing and Acting(2:01) Siri Hustvedt (Novelist, Scholar, Memoirist · Author of ‘Ghost Stories’ and ‘What I Loved’) on Listening and the Essence of Dialogue(3:35) Hala Alyan (Psychologist, Author of I'll Tell You When I'm Home)(5:11) Ana Castillo (Novelist & Poet) On Xicanisma and Indigenous History(6:55) Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy (Academy Award-winning Filmmaker) Film As A Tool For Change(8:37) Sara Ahmed (Scholar) On The Feminist Killjoy(10:40) Marilyn Minter (Artist) on Owning Sexual Agency(11:23) Ellen Rapoport (Showrunner, Writer, HBO’s Minx) on Feminism and Sexual Expression(12:07) Intan Paramaditha (Author) on Tiger Mothers, Monsters and So-called Bad Women(15:07) Ada Limón (24th U.S. Poet Laureate) Motherhood, Grief And Poetry(18:11) Ami Vitale (Photographer & Filmmaker) How Being a Woman Gave Her Access to Different StoriesTo hear more from each guest, listen to their full interviews.Episode Websitewww.creativeprocess.info/pod@creativeprocesspodcast

"The thing that puzzled him was why people don't agree to be fully expressed while they're alive. Why does it only happen in their last moment? Why wouldn't you live being fully expressed?"My guest today is AL Kennedy. She is one of Britain’s most acclaimed and versatile literary voices, a writer who can inhabit the internal life of a soldier in a POW camp, as she did in her Costa Book Award-winning novel Day, as easily as she can navigate the "professional lying" of a modern civil servant.Her latest novel, Alive in the Merciful Country, takes place during the 2020 lockdown. It tells the story of a primary school teacher who receives a confession from an undercover police officer who infiltrated her life decades earlier. It’s a provocative investigation into state power, the "Spy Cops" scandal and the search for mercy in an age of surveillance. It’s a book about the breakdown of trust. We talk about her life, her activism, and why she believes fiction is the only way to tell the truth when the facts are forbidden and how she balances the truth of her novels with the relief of stand-up comedy.(0:00) Finding Your VoiceOn the Alfred Wolfsohn voice method and the power of being fully expressed(2:30) Reading from Alive in the Merciful CountryKennedy shares a passage from her latest novel, exploring hope and resilience in dark times.(4:43) The Myth of Shrinking Attention SpansChallenging the narrative that modern audiences cannot focus, and the importance of engaging storytelling.(6:22) Education and the Foundation of DemocracyThe dangers of dismantling education and how critical thinking protects us from fascism.(10:26) The Spy Cop Scandal and State SurveillanceUnpacking the reality of undercover police infiltrating peaceful protests and intimate lives.(13:59) Lockdown: A Global Pause and the Inrush of EmpathyThe fleeting moment of unified humanity during the pandemic and how it was ultimately betrayed.(17:34) Writing Without Theft: The Ethics of Character CreationKennedy explains her imaginative process and why she refuses to steal details from real people's lives.(28:16) AI, Digital Slop, and the Loss of TrustReflections on artificial intelligence as an unstable plagiarism machine and its impact on truth.(30:03) Nature, Spirituality, and the Merciful CountryFinding healing in the natural world and navigating the future with love and awareness.Episode Websitewww.creativeprocess.info/podInstagram:@creativeprocesspodcast

What happens when the state infiltrates your most intimate relationships? How do we protect the innocence and imagination of children in an increasingly authoritarian world? "If you have love, eventually you're going to win. It's not that people aren't going to die. It's not terrible things aren't going to happen. But if you stay with that and you stay centered in that, you'll get through and you will not have turned into a monster in order to overcome monsters.”My guest today is AL Kennedy. She is one of Britain’s most acclaimed and versatile literary voices, a writer who can inhabit the internal life of a soldier in a POW camp, as she did in her Costa Book Award-winning novel Day, as easily as she can navigate the "professional lying" of a modern civil servant.Her latest novel, Alive in the Merciful Country, takes place during the 2020 lockdown. It tells the story of a primary school teacher who receives a confession from an undercover police officer who infiltrated her life decades earlier. It’s a provocative investigation into state power, the "Spy Cops" scandal and the search for mercy in an age of surveillance. It’s a book about the breakdown of trust. We talk about her life, her activism, and why she believes fiction is the only way to tell the truth when the facts are forbidden and how she balances the truth of her novels with the relief of stand-up comedy.(0:00) Finding Your Voice On the Alfred Wolfsohn voice method and the power of being fully expressed(2:17) Education and the Foundation of Democracy The dangers of dismantling education and how critical thinking protects us from fascism.(5:14) The Myth of Shrinking Attention Spans Challenging the narrative that modern audiences cannot focus, and the importance of engaging storytelling.(8:23) Reading from Alive in the Merciful Country Kennedy shares a passage from her latest novel, exploring hope and resilience in dark times.(17:45) The Spy Cop Scandal and State Surveillance Unpacking the reality of undercover police infiltrating peaceful protests and intimate lives.(22:07) AI, Digital Slop, and the Loss of Trust Reflections on artificial intelligence as an unstable plagiarism machine and its impact on truth.(28:29) The Power of the Powerless: Radical Whimsy How absurdity, humor, and inflatable costumes can disrupt authoritarian mindsets and potential violence.(33:13) Lockdown: A Global Pause and the Inrush of Empathy The fleeting moment of unified humanity during the pandemic and how it was ultimately betrayed.(42:53) Writing Without Theft: The Ethics of Character Creation Kennedy explains her imaginative process and why she refuses to steal details from real people's lives.(1:29:40) Nature, Spirituality, and the Merciful Country Finding healing in the natural world and navigating the future with love and awareness.Episode Websitewww.creativeprocess.info/podIG @creativeprocesspodcast

“Grief is a particular kind of unrequited love. It wasn't unrequited in the past. Usually, we think of unrequited love as you never got to do it, you never had it for yourself. But, in fact, there can be requited love, which is then unrequited love in the paroxysms of grief.”Today, we are honored to welcome a writer whose work has long explored the intimate landscapes of the mind, memory and the heart. Siri Hustvedt’s writing moves between the personal and the philosophical, the literary and the deeply human. Her work bridges collections of essays, non-fiction, poetry, and seven novels, including the international bestsellers What I Loved and The Summer Without Men. Recipient of the Princess of Asturias Award for Literature and the Gabarron Prize for Thought, her work has been translated into over thirty languages. Her new memoir, Ghost Stories, is a reflection on forty-three years shared with her late husband, the writer and filmmaker Paul Auster. In its pages, we encounter not only love and loss, but the quiet persistence of presence, memory, and language itself.(0:00) “We were hugely important to the drama of becoming in our own lives”(2:04) Grief as Unrequited LoveSiri explores the emotional reality of living without Paul Auster, noting that grief occurs because love does not stop when a person dies.(3:19) The Shared Space of a 43-year Marriage(4:36) Reading from Ghost StoriesSiri reads the opening passage of her memoir, detailing how the loss of her husband deranged her sense of time and bodily rhythms.(7:02) How Loss Changes Our Sense of Time(11:24)  How Powerful Emotions and a Person's Life Can Play a Role in Illness(13:04) Believing in a Reality that Transcends the Individual(20:06) Physical Love in MarriageOn the importance of physical intimacy in long-term marriages, a reality often left out of grief memoirs.Episode Websitewww.creativeprocess.info/podInstagram:@creativeprocesspodcast

“Grief happens because you don't stop loving the person who died. The person doesn't exist in your reality anymore. The everyday is not colored and shaped by this other human being, but you don't stop loving the person. So grief is a particular kind of unrequited love. And probably without that dynamic relationship with this person, I would be someone else. And he would've been someone else. I mean, Paul died before me. But we were, I think, hugely important to the drama of becoming in our own lives.”Today, we are honored to welcome a writer whose work has long explored the intimate landscapes of the mind, memory and the heart. Siri Hustvedt’s writing moves between the personal and the philosophical, the literary and the deeply human. Her work bridges collections of essays, non-fiction, poetry, and seven novels, including the international bestsellers What I Loved and The Summer Without Men. Recipient of the Princess of Asturias Award for Literature and the Gabarron Prize for Thought, her work has been translated into over thirty languages. Her new memoir, Ghost Stories, is a reflection on forty-three years shared with her late husband, the writer and filmmaker Paul Auster. In its pages, we encounter not only love and loss, but the quiet persistence of presence, memory, and language itself.(0:00) Grief as Unrequited LoveSiri explores the emotional reality of living without Paul Auster, noting that grief occurs because love does not stop when a person dies.(4:00) Facing Death with CourageThe importance of not hiding from mortality and how discussing end-of-life wishes offered a necessary perspective.(12:37) Reading from Ghost StoriesSiri reads the opening passage of her memoir, detailing how the loss of her husband deranged her sense of time and bodily rhythms.(18:41) The Phantom Limb: ” The beloved is taken away and it feels as if you're amputated or gutted.”(21:50)  Grandfather, Father and Son: Generational Traumas Behind Paul Auster's Writing(24:11)  How Powerful Emotions and a Person's Life Can Play a Role in Illness(30:09) Feeding the Earth  "Paul very pointedly told me that he wanted to be buried in the Jewish mode. And the phrase he used was, “I want my body to feed the earth.”(44:23) Physical Love in MarriageOn the importance of physical intimacy in long-term marriages, a reality often left out of grief memoirs.(54:00) The Philosophy of the Between: How relational existence is foundational to life.(1:00:16) The Hubris of Controlling Nature(1:12:00) The Dark History of Statistics(1:32:12) The Art of Learning vs. AI“I think we have to ask ourselves, what is education?Episode Websitewww.creativeprocess.info/podIG @creativeprocesspodcast