The Ezra Klein Show: How Fast Will A.I. Agents Rip Through the Economy?

The “Hard Fork” team is off this week, taking a much-needed break. While we’re away, we wanted to draw your attention to a recent episode of “The Ezra Klein Show.” In this conversation, Ezra speaks with Jack Clark, a co-founder of Anthropic, about how he is using A.I. agents; how the technology is leading to meaningful changes in the ways we work and think; and how policy can or must change to anticipate potential job displacement on the horizon. We’ll be back with a new episode next week. Guest: Jack Clark, a co-founder and the head of policy at Anthropic.  Additional Reading: A full transcript and video of this episode can be found here. We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, we start by talking about the new wave of tech layoffs at Atlassian and Block, as well as reports that Meta plans to cut up to 20 percent of its work force. This raises the question of whether A.I. job loss has truly begun, or if there are other factors at play. Then, we’re joined by the writer Jasmine Sun to talk about why chatbots are still so bad at creative writing. And finally, it’s tokenmaxxing time! Kevin takes us behind the scenes of his latest reporting about why tech companies are building leaderboards to measure who is using the most A.I.   Guest: Jasmine Sun, journalist and writer at jasmi.news   Additional Reading: I Worked for Block. Its A.I. Job Cuts Aren’t What They Seem. Meta Planning Sweeping Layoffs as A.I. Costs Mount Meta Delays Rollout of New A.I. Model After Performance Concerns The A.I.-Washing of Job Cuts Is Corrosive and Confusing The Human Skill That Eludes A.I.   We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

A.I. is changing the ways war is waged. This week, we explore how the U.S. and Israel are using A.I. to identify targets in the conflict with Iran — and why data centers and fiber optic cables are targets on the front lines. Then, researcher Julie Bedard breaks down “A.I. brain fry,” a new condition she and her colleagues studied among A.I. users at work. And finally, Casey shares his battle with Grammarly after the company used his identity in a new A.I. feature, without his consent. Guest: Julie Bedard, managing director and partner at Boston Consulting Group who is also the lead author of a survey of “A.I. brain fry” in the workplace. Additional Reading: U.S. at Fault in Strike on School in Iran, Preliminary Inquiry Says How A.I. Is Turbocharging the War in Iran Anthropic’s A.I. tool Claude central to U.S. campaign in Iran, amid a bitter feud A.I. Fatigue Is Real and Nobody Talks About It Token Anxiety A.I. Doesn’t Reduce Work — It Intensifies It Grammarly Is Using Our Identities Without Permission   We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, the fallout continues as OpenAI scrambles to rework its deal with the Pentagon, while government agencies adapt to life without Claude. Then we break down the grim new reality of prediction market bets on the U.S.-Israel led war with Iran. Finally, it’s time for another edition of The Hard Fork Review of Slop. This time we’re joined by Arijeta Lajka, a New York Times reporter, to discuss her recent article about the short form A.I.-generated slop YouTube is feeding to young children.Guest: Arijeta Lajka, New York Times video journalist Additional Reading: The Pentagon Officially Notifies Anthropic That It Is a ‘Supply Chain Risk’ OpenAI Amends A.I. Deal With the Pentagon  How Talks Between Anthropic and the Defense Dept. Fell Apart  How Anonymous Bettors Cashed In on the Iran Strike, Just Hours Before It Happened Israeli Army Reservists Are Suspected of Using Inside Knowledge to Bet How A.I.-Generated Videos Are Distorting Your Child’s YouTube Feed   We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

On Friday, President Trump ordered federal agencies to stop using Anthropic’s A.I. systems and Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth designated the company a “supply chain risk.” Then, just a few hours later, the OpenAI chief executive, Sam Altman, announced that his company reached an agreement with the Pentagon. The deal ensures its technology won’t be used for the same two safety concerns Anthropic raised: domestic mass surveillance or autonomous weapons. So what is going on? Is this a political vendetta between the Pentagon and Anthropic? Or are there substantive differences between the agreement Anthropic was offered and the one OpenAI signed? We cut through the confusion. Additional Reading: OpenAI Reaches A.I. Agreement With Defense Dept. After Anthropic Clash Trump Orders Government to Stop Using Anthropic After Pentagon Standoff We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, the economist Anton Korinek joins to break down how artificial intelligence is driving volatility in the job and stock markets. Then, the battle between the Pentagon and Anthropic is getting even more tense. Anthropic now has until 5:01 p.m. Eastern time on Friday to accept the military’s demands over the terms of a contract, or the Trump administration will retaliate by invoking the Defense Production Act and designating the company a “supply chain risk.” We discuss this change, as well as two other updates on OpenClaw and Alpha Schools. Guest: Anton Korinek, economist studying the impact of A.I., at the University of Virginia. Additional Reading: Pentagon Gives A.I. Company an Ultimatum Summer Yue’s OpenClaw post ‘Students Are Being Treated Like Guinea Pigs’: Inside an AI-Powered Private School Parents Fell in Love With Alpha School’s Promise. Then They Wanted Out The 2028 Global Intelligence Crisis When Does Automating Research Produce Explosive Growth? We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, Anthropic is refusing to let the government use the company’s technology for autonomous weapons and domestic surveillance. In response, the Pentagon is threatening to cut business ties and declare Anthropic a “supply chain risk.” Who will blink first? Then, Scott Shambaugh joins us to tell the strange tale of the autonomous A.I. agent that wrote a hit piece about him. And finally, the Hot Mess Express returns to the station.   Guest: Scott Shambaugh, engineer and writer of “An A.I. Agent Published a Hit Piece on Me”    Additional Reading: Defense Department and Anthropic Square Off in Dispute Over A.I. Safety Ring Cancels Its Partnership With Flock Safety After Surveillance Backlash Meta Plans to Add Facial Recognition Technology to Its Smart Glasses Japan’s Largest Toilet Maker Is Undervalued A.I. Play, Says Activist Investor ‘It Is 35 Degrees’: Outrage as Aussie Uber Driver Charges $5 to Turn on Air Conditioning Unit During Heatwave Meta Patented an A.I. That Lets You Keep Posting From Beyond the Grave I Tried RentAHuman, Where A.I. Agents Hired Me to Hype Their A.I. Start-Ups We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, we discuss Wall Street’s software-stock sell-off and a viral essay on X about the potential for widespread job displacement from A.I. Then, the New York Times reporter Alexandra Alter walks us through the process that a growing number of writers are adopting to churn out romance novels with help from A.I. chatbots. Finally, we each share one bit of good tech-related news — a new way to make playlists on Spotify and progress toward decoding whale sounds. Guest:Alexandra Alter, a New York Times reporter covering books and publishing. Additional Reading:The Dark Side of A.I. Weighs on Tech StocksMatt Shumer’s essay “Something Big Is Happening”The New Fabio Is ClaudeHow a New A.I. Tool Fixed My Single Biggest Problem With SpotifyHow A.I. Trained on Birds Is Surfacing Underwater Mysteries We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week, the A.I. initial-public-offering race is heating up! We break down SpaceX’s acquisition of xAI, as well as OpenAI and Nvidia’s messy situationship. Then, it’s time for show and tell. We got our hands on the latest experimental A.I. prototype from Google called Project Genie, and we discuss our experience using it to generate and navigate video-game-like environments. Finally, we’re joined by Moltbook’s founder, Matt Schlicht, to discuss his new social media platform for A.I. agents, and how he’s planning to deal with security risks and spam on the site. Guest:Matt Schlicht, creator of Moltbook Additional Reading: Elon Musk Merges SpaceX With His A.I. Start-Up xAIThe $100 Billion Megadeal Between OpenAI and Nvidia Is on IceProject Genie: Experimenting with infinite, interactive worldsAn A.I. Pioneer Warns the Tech ‘Herd’ Is Marching Into a Dead EndMoltbook Mania Explained We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

A Reddit-style web forum for A.I. agents has captured the attention of the tech world. According to the site, called Moltbook, more than 1.5 million agents have contributed to over 150,000 posts, making it the largest experiment to date of what happens when A.I. agents interact with each other. We discuss our favorite posts, how we’re thinking about the question of what is “real” on the site, and where we expect agents to go from here. Additional Reading:A Social Network for A.I. Bots Only. No Humans Allowed.Five Ways of Thinking About Moltbook We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.