America's Military Fetish and the Church's Silence, with Ben Daniel, author of Grace Over Guns

Ben Daniel is the Senior Pastor of Montclair Presbyterian Church in Oakland, California, and the author of Grace Over Guns: Pursuing Peace in a Militarized World. In this conversation, Markus Watson and Ben talk about the quiet reverence for military power that has crept into American Christianity, what it cost Ben personally to stop standing for the national anthem, and why he believes the church's silence on militarism is a form of complicity. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: Ben Daniel argues that American Christianity has developed an unspoken reverence for military power that borders on idolatry. The conversation traces how flags, uniforms, and anthems entered church sanctuaries and became fused with Christian identity. Ben shares the moment that led him to stop standing for the national anthem, and the backlash it brought from his own congregation. Markus and Ben discuss Dietrich Bonhoeffer's witness during the firebombing of Dresden as a model for costly, embodied pacifism. Ben makes the case that silence from the pulpit on militarism is itself a form of complicity. RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS: Ben Daniel: Montclair Presbyterian Church Books mentioned: Grace Over Guns: Pursuing Peace in a Militarized World, by Ben Daniel Just Peacemaking: Ten Practices for Abolishing War, by Glen Stassen The Log from the Sea of Cortez, by John Steinbeck RELATED EPISODES: Episode 234: Political Power and American Evangelicalism, with Tim Alberta, author of The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory Episode 143: How the Church Can Respond to Immigration, with Karen Gonzalez, author of Beyond Welcome Episode 228: Dismantling the Myth of the White God, with Grace Ji-Sun Kim, author of When God Became White Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Is the church still relevant in a post-Christendom world? Kurt Fredrickson returns to Spiritual Life and Leadership to talk about his new book, Compelled, and to make the case that the local church, done right, is still "a small working model of the kingdom of God." Markus Watson and Fredrickson talk about why so many congregations operate like machines built to produce bigger Sundays, and what it would take to tend them like gardens instead. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: The church is still relevant because it functions as a small working model of the kingdom of God. Eugene Peterson's definition: the church is "named people in particular places who practice a life of resurrection." Why the church of the 1950s can't simply be repeated in a post-Christendom, polarized culture. The garden-versus-machine metaphor on the cover of Compelled, and what it means to disrupt a congregation's system instead of engineering it. Deprofessionalizing the clergy: the provocative claim that professional clergy can become "the greatest impediment to the work of the church." Releasing the five-fold gifts of Ephesians so ministry isn't bottlenecked in the pastor's office. The isolation-plus-depletion-plus-conflict formula for how pastors get in trouble, and the ABCs (Abide, Breathe, Connect) for staying healthy. Kurt Fredrickson's own journey from twenty-four years pastoring a booming, machine-like congregation to asking, "would our community even miss us?" A story about a congregation that moved communion to the center of the room during a season of painful conflict. Why hospitality and the Lord's Table are the two disciplines Fredrickson considers essential for a missional community. RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS: Kurt Fredrickson: Faculty bio Books mentioned: Compelled: Nurturing Local Missional Communities, by Kurt Fredrickson The Pastor as Gardener: A Renewed Vision for Ministry, by Matthew Erickson and Winn Collier The Pastor as Midwife: Life-Giving Leadership for the Healing of the Church, by Shawna Songer Gaines The Patient Ferment of the Early Church, by Alan Kreider Related episodes: 103. Willingness to Adapt: The Church After Covid, with Kurt Fredrickson and Cameron Lee 313. Embodied Spirituality for Pastors and Leaders, with Mark Scandrette and Dave Kludt 314. Why Good Leaders Sometimes Make Their Churches Worse, with JR Woodward Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Are your congregants' jobs a distraction from their discipleship, or one of the main places it actually happens? Matt Rusten, president of Made to Flourish and editor-in-chief of Common Good Magazine, joins Markus to explore the theology of work and what it looks like for pastors and churches to help their people see their everyday jobs as spiritually significant.This Episode's Highlights Include:Why the Bible introduces God as a maker before it describes him as holy or mercifulWhat it means that every person in your pews has a "sphere of dominion" in their workHow work forms your congregation over time, and how it can quietly deform themWhy Jesus used work as the backdrop for most of his parablesWhy John the Baptist sent tax collectors and soldiers back into their same jobsPractical ways your church can help people connect faith and work: small groups, "This Time Tomorrow" interviews, and pastoral workplace visitsRelevant Resources and Links:Pastoring for Monday by Matt RustenMade to FlourishRELATED EPISODES:288. Leadership That Smells Like the Gospel, with Jason Jensen272. Beyond Church Revitalization, with Josh Hayden247. The Kingdom of God as Present RealitySend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Angela Weszely is the founder and CEO of ProGrace and the author of Becoming ProGrace: Expanding the Abortion Conversation Beyond Life Versus Choice. Twenty-one years ago she took a job at a Christian pregnancy center in Chicago and immediately felt the tension between what the organization said it believed and how it actually treated women. That tension became a decade-long journey that led her to found ProGrace. In this conversation, Angela and Markus explore what it looks like for the church to actually resemble Jesus in how it responds to abortion and unintended pregnancy.This Episode's Highlights Include:Angela's journey from a legalistic upbringing into leading a Christian pregnancy organizationThe four theological frameworks Christians get wrong about abortion: equal value and dignity, political identity over Christian identity, grace, and shared responsibilityWhy only 7% of women, and 16% of church-going women, ever approach a church before an abortion decisionThe narrative that shames women and lets partners off the hookWhat the story of the woman caught in adultery in John 8 actually reveals about grace and systemic injusticeWhat it means to be the beloved, and why that identity changes how we respond to people in crisisThe objectification hiding inside the abortion debateRelevant Resources and Links:Becoming ProGrace: Expanding the Abortion Conversation Beyond Life Versus Choice, by Angela WeszelyProGraceSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

JR Woodward is the National Director of the V3 Movement, a faculty member in the Doctor of Global Leadership cohort at Fuller Theological Seminary, and the author of The Scandal of Leadership: Unmasking the Powers of Domination in the Church. In this conversation, JR and Markus explore what it looks like to lead communities that bring the Kingdom of God to life in the places where we live.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:What it means that Jesus's primary message was the kingdom of God, and how that shapes everything a church doesShalom as a holistic picture of human flourishing: restored relationships with God, others, creation, and ourselvesThe NEAR framework for understanding a neighborhood: Narrative, Ethics, Associations, RitualsThe four spaces of belonging and how Jesus inhabited all four: intimate (3–4), personal (5–12), social (20–50), public (70+)Why closed discipleship groups differ from open missional spaces, and why you can't build depth if the door is always openHow people often belong before they believe, and how behavior changes before beliefs doHow our desires are shaped by whoever we look up to, and how this creates rivalry and division in churchesHow conflict in a congregation can escalate until one person becomes the targetWhat Philippians 2 teaches about giving up honor and titles as a path to healthier leadershipHow love of image, institutional self-preservation, and ideology become corrupting forces in church lifeOscar Romero as a real-world example of the downward path of leadershipV3 Movement's interdenominational church planting trainingThe Doctor of Global Leadership cohort at Fuller SeminaryRELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:The Scandal of Leadership, by JR WoodwardV3 MovementFuller Doctor of Global Leadership ProgramRELATED EPISODES:288. Leadership That Smells Like the Gospel, with Jason Jensen272. Beyond Church Revitalization, with Josh Hayden247. The Kingdom of God as Present RealitySend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Mark Scandrette has spent over twenty years wrestling with a hard realization: knowing a lot about God doesn't mean you're good at following Jesus. Dave Kludt spent fifteen years in pastoral ministry learning that everything, down to how you arrange the chairs in a room, forms people. Together they co-teach a Doctor of Ministry cohort at Fuller Seminary built around two words: integral and embodied. Mark is the founder of Reimagine and author of Practicing the Way of Jesus and The Ninefold Path of Jesus, and a longtime friend of the podcast (he first joined us back on episode 112). Dave is the president of Reimagine's board, a former pastor of 15 years, and Mark's partner in this new cohort, a Substack, and an upcoming podcast.IN THIS CONVERSATION:Why "getting more information" doesn't lead to transformation, and what doesWhat Dave means by an "integral" approach to formation, and why it starts with facing the world's fractures honestlyWhat Mark means by "embodied" formation, and the Learning Lab model Reimagine uses to teach by doingWhy the leader of a Learning Lab has to be a participant, not just an expertMoving from a "closed fist" to an "open hand" posture toward your next stepWhy discomfort with failure gets in the way of formation in many churchesHow Mark and Dave use the Enneagram as a formation tool, not a personality quizThe "formation edges" Mark and Dave are each working on right nowMark and Dave's hopes for the Fuller Doctor of Ministry cohort on integral and embodied formationRELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:markscandrette.com — Mark's websitereimagine.org — Mark and Dave's organizationFuller Seminary's Doctor of Ministry programBooks mentioned:Practicing the Way of Jesus, by Mark ScandretteThe Ninefold Path of Jesus, by Mark ScandretteRELATED EPISODES:The Beatitudes and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark ScandretteThe Spiritual Life of a Leader, with Tod BolsingerThe Neuroscience of Spiritual Formation, with Jim WilderSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Jeff Crosby reads about 75 books a year. But in this conversation—his third appearance on the podcast—he's quick to say the number isn't the point. What matters is what reading does to you, including what he calls being "unselfed." Jeff Crosby is a 24-year veteran of InterVarsity Press, current executive with ECPA, and author of World of Wonders: A Spirituality of Reading.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:jeffreycrosby.net — Jeff's website, including his books and information on his forthcoming book on musicECPA — Evangelical Christian Publishers Association, where Jeff servesBooks mentioned:World of Wonders: A Spirituality of Reading, by Jeff CrosbyEvery Moment Holy, Vol. I, by Douglas Kaine McKelveyA Diary of Private Prayer, by John BaillieReading While Black, by Esau McCaulleyThe Cross and the Lynching Tree, by James H. ConeJesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes, by Kenneth E. BaileyPlainsong, by Kent HarufEventide, by Kent HarufBenediction, by Kent HarufMere Christianity, by C.S. LewisThe Ragamuffin Gospel, by Brennan ManningA Touch of Wonder, by Arthur GordonRELATED EPISODES:Episode 194: Saudade, Leadership, and Nurturing the Inner Life, with Jeff CrosbyEpisode 96: Crossing Leadership Thresholds, with Jeff CrosbySend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Administration is more than paperwork—it’s a spiritual calling. Jana Holiday, author of Taking Good Care: Administration for Christian Formation, explores how stewardship, imagination, and hospitable leadership can transform administration into a ministry of care and Christian formation.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jana Holiday explains that she loves administration because it involves solving problems and collaborating to move people, resources, and projects toward fulfilling a mission.Administration centers on stewardship—taking good care of people, resources, and projects.Jana Holiday connects the idea of stewardship to Genesis 1, positioning it as an expression of imago Dei and a pursuit of good work and good results.Effective administration requires reflection, intentionality, and love.Jana Holiday cautions against letting the pursuit of productivity override empathy and care in leadership.Administration works best when it is open-handed and welcoming, rather than controlling and restrictive.Administrators must choose between stewardship—an open invitation—and dominion, which relies on control.Jana Holiday warns that exercising dominion in administration risks missing out on the collective wisdom and creativity of a group.Administrative work is not unspiritual; all good work—including administration—can be ministry and part of Christian formation.Jana Holiday introduces three categories related to work: jobs, callings, and invitations, suggesting that many administrative roles may function as invitations from God more than callings.Approaching administrative work as an invitation can lead to a more purposeful and responsive engagement with people and resources.Markus Watson and Jana Holiday discuss the importance of boundaries for administrators and the need for leaders to help protect staff from being overloaded by excessive demands.Over-functioning and under-functioning both erode trust in organizational settings.Jana Holiday suggests administrators regularly audit their responsibilities and seek feedback from colleagues to maintain a healthy balance in their roles.Hospitable administration involves creating belonging and valuing people as part of stewardship, not just completing tasks.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Gordon-Conwell Theological SeminaryIDEO (Design & Innovation Firm)Books mentioned:Taking Good Care, by Jana HollidayDesigning Your Life, by Bill Burnett and Dave EvansDesigning Your Work Life, by Bill Burnett and Dave EvansThe Art of Innovation, by Tom KelleyRELATED EPISODE'S:Healing Workplace Wounds, with Meryl HerrTrust, Teams, and Transformational Leadership, with Mike BonemPursuing Your Purpose, with Nicholas PearceSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

What happens when you visit 33 different churches in a year? Richard Riccardi, author of The Wandering Worshipper, shares his journey of exploring worship spaces, the surprising power of radical hospitality, and how authentic community can transform even the most unexpected visitor.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Richard Riccardi describes walking into 33 places of worship and discovering that churches are gardeners of fruitful communities.Churches serve as places where everyone can belong, and everyone needs a place to belong.Richard Riccardi intentionally attended a wide variety of worship services, including Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, and Baha’i gatherings.A welcoming environment across different places of worship made a strong positive impression, regardless of faith tradition.Richard Riccardi recounts a rare instance where a welcome felt too aggressive, serving as a caution about coming on too strong with visitors.Church members often believe their enthusiastic friendliness is always positive, but it can sometimes overwhelm newcomers.Experiences of deep hospitality and acceptance can transcend racial, cultural, and religious boundaries.Richard Riccardi explains that styles of worship that encourage relationship and participation engaged him more than rigid, predictable rituals.A diversity of approaches is needed in church messaging and environment to reach both newcomers and longtime members.Markus Watson and Richard Riccardi discuss the importance of “sacred listening” and tailoring responses to visitors’ backgrounds and spiritual needs.Being sensitive about criticizing other faiths or denominations can foster genuine community and dialogue.Authentic community in churches is demonstrated when people support each other in times of need, as seen in the care Richard Riccardi’s mother received near the end of her life.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINK:Richard RiccardiWebsite - https://thewanderingworshiper.com/Books mentioned:The Wandering Worshipper, by Richard RiccardiBeyond Thingification, by Markus WatsonRelated episodes:167. Called to Each Other218. Trust, Teams, and Transformational Leadership222. Building a Multi-Inclusive ChurchSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Ministry can stir up all kinds of feelings, especially when we’re dealing with conflict, with grief, with change. And the better we understand what’s happening beneath the surface, the better we can lead ourselves—and our people—more thoughtfully and more effectively.In this episode, I’m speaking with Dr. Audrey Davidheiser, a licensed psychologist and the author of Grieving Wholeheartedly. Audrey helps us understand something called Internal Family Systems—IFS—a powerful way of thinking about our inner world and all those “parts” of us that can get in the way of effective leadership.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Audrey Davidheiser explains what drew her to Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy.Internal Family Systems is a psychological model that views people as having multiple internal "parts."Parts of yourself often express themselves in day-to-day decisions, sometimes even in conflict with each other.Markus Watson clarifies that having "parts" is different from dissociative identity disorder or multiple personalities.Audrey Davidheiser explains the difference between parts in IFS and the rigid, unaware system found in Dissociative Identity Disorder.Internal Family Systems builds on the foundation of family systems theory, adapting it to the internal world.Inside everyone are parts that take on different roles, often formed in response to significant experiences, such as trauma or relational wounds.Markus Watson illustrates the concept with the example of feeling different internal responses to everyday situations like going to a late-night movie.Every person has both helpful and challenging internal parts, such as critics, achievers, or comfort-seekers, and these parts influence behavior.Audrey Davidheiser introduces three types of parts in IFS: exiles (hurt parts), managers (protective parts), and firefighters (distracting/soothing parts).Parts are not inherently bad; even when their actions are destructive, they are typically trying to protect us or relieve pain.Markus Watson inquires about the relationship between sin and IFS, prompting Audrey Davidheiser to articulate how parts can miss the mark despite good intentions.Pastors can benefit from understanding their own internal parts, especially when reacting to challenging questions or situations in ministry.Audrey Davidheiser suggests the practice of being "unblended"—letting the true Self, rather than an emotional part, lead when responding to others.Leaders who operate from their "Self" (instead of from a part) can foster healthier responses and guide their communities through change with greater empathy and wisdom.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Audrey DavidheiserAim For Breakthrough websiteBooks mentioned:Grieving Wholeheartedly, by Audrey DavidheiserRelated Episodes:262: From Fired to Flourishing, with Chuck DeGroat254: Endless Expectations and Emotional Exhaustion206: The Healing Power of Pilgrimage, with Jon HuckinsSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.