291. The Complex Truth About Modern Churchgoers, a Quick conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson

Discover why leading in today’s church means listening deeply to people’s questions, griefs, and dreams—before ever stepping into the pulpit.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Mark Glanville in Ep. 278, Preaching in Today's Post-Christian World:"People are walking to church now, not with the Bible under their arm, but with complex and genuine questions, with hopes, with dreams, with griefs on their heart, sometimes with a complex relationship with the Bible itself.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Church leaders face the complexity of guiding people who bring diverse backgrounds, questions, hopes, dreams, and griefs.Pastoral leaders prioritize listening to the congregation before offering teaching or guidance.Leaders shape sermons and leadership approaches by engaging deeply with people’s real-life experiences and struggles.Adaptive leadership requires creating community among people who differ in their spiritual journeys and relationships with scripture.Effective preaching and leadership begin with meaningful relationships and conversations, not just expertise or information delivery.Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

As ministry leaders, we often imagine that building trust is the ultimate goal—once we have it, the road to transformation should be clear. But what happens when trust alone isn’t enough? The truth is, trust is only the starting point. Moving beyond it requires us to invest our trust in ways that actually make change possible, even when it means taking risks and facing loss together.In this episode, Tod Bolsinger, author of Invest in Transformation: Quit Relying on Trust, shares why trust is essential but insufficient for transformative leadership, how we can begin to discern our congregation’s unique calling, and what it takes to wisely invest trust as we guide people through the challenges of adaptive change.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Tod Bolsinger asserts that there is no transformation without trust.Leadership requires energizing a community toward its own transformation for the sake of a shared mission.People will not trust a leader to guide them through difficult change if they don’t trust them with current, familiar responsibilities.Leaders build trust through both trustworthy character and technical competence.Relational congruence means consistently showing up as the same person in all relationships, reinforcing trust.Even leaders of good character need to be experienced by others as trustworthy in daily interactions.Technical competence in areas such as scripture, soul care, and organizational skills is non-negotiable for pastoral leaders.Trust is the bank account that leaders must invest (and spend) when leading adaptive or transformational change.When transformation is pursued, trust levels may decrease as change creates uncertainty and resistance.Tod Bolsinger notes that maintaining trust means not squandering it on trivial matters, but instead strategically investing it in real transformation.The process of transformation begins with clarifying a congregation’s unique charism—its distinctive gift to the broader community.Charism emerges from actual values and stories, not from aspirational wish lists or debates about what a church “should” be.Discerning a congregation’s charism requires telling stories about the times they were most proud of the church.Identifying a congregation’s charism is followed by asking how it can address the pain points of the community, thus connecting internal giftedness with external needs.Transformation always involves loss, and truly adaptive change means some may leave, but new vibrancy and alignment with mission can develop as a result.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Church Leadership InstituteBooks mentioned:Invest in Transformation: Quit Relying on Trust, by Tod BolsingerRelated episodes:230. The Power of an 8-word Mission Statement, with Tod Bolsinger264. Building a Future-Focused Church, with Kara Powell, Jake Mulder, and Raymond Chang272. Beyond Church Revitalization, with Josh HaydenSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Learn how transformational leaders can unlock real change by listening deeply to their neighborhoods—before making big plans for the future.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Josh Hayden in Ep. 272, Beyond Church Revitalization."Remissioning leaders have to do the steady work of exegeting the neighborhood, and doing the exegesis work of the church before they make big plans about what success or flourishing looks like for our church or our neighbors."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Remissioning leaders exegete both their neighborhoods and their churches before making big plans for success or flourishing.Leaders develop a deep understanding of their community by listening, observing, and engaging with the local context.Churches resist imposing ideas by prioritizing understanding over assumptions when entering a neighborhood.Teams uncover the unique strengths and pain points of their neighborhoods by spending devoted time within them.Faith communities help neighborhoods flourish when they build connections and respond to local needs in the name of Jesus.Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Why is it that so many ministry leaders—people called to reflect Christ’s love—so often end up burned out, disillusioned, or driven by power and platform instead of humility and service? It’s heartbreaking when church leadership doesn’t “smell like the gospel,” and instead resembles the very systems of profit and self-promotion it should prophetically resist.In this episode, Jason Jensen, Vice President of Spiritual Foundations for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship and author of Formed to Lead, unpacks what true spiritual formation for leaders looks like, how to hold humility and faith in tension, and how suffering and the wilderness can become gifts in our ministry.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jason Jensen observes that much leadership in the church fails to reflect the gospel and often focuses on power, platform, or profit.Large numbers of Christian leaders experience burnout or moral, character, or spiritual failure, leading to disillusionment among younger generations.Jason Jensen asserts that the Gospel of Luke presents a radically different, subversive vision of leadership, centering the vulnerable and overlooked.Leadership in God’s kingdom includes all people, from parents to presidents, and turns conventional power dynamics upside down.Christian leadership requires holding together the paradox of tender humility and bold faith.Jason Jensen describes the spiritual formation of a leader as a lifelong, iterative process marked by failure, repentance, and receiving the love of God.Embracing wilderness seasons—times of pain, failure, or dryness—is essential for spiritual growth and character development.Markus Watson invites Jason Jensen to share from personal experience how suffering shaped his faith and leadership, prompting stories of transformation after injury and failure.Experiencing grief, loss, and mistakes can be some of the most formative experiences for a leader’s development and empathy.Depth and authenticity in leadership are formed by embracing—not bypassing—suffering and wilderness experiences.Jason Jensen highlights Steve Hayner’s example of leadership, specifically his ability to listen well, include others, and help others feel loved and safe.Steve Hayner practiced “expansive discourse” and adaptive leadership, carrying pain with others and facilitating mutual learning rather than judgment.Sustainable organizational change requires time, patience, and leaders who bring everyone to the table and foster shared purpose.Offering one’s life—and even one’s death—as a gift to God and others represents the culmination of a spiritual journey, embodying humility, sacrifice, and openness.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jason Jensen:formedtolead.comInstagramXFacebookBooks mentioned:Formed to Lead, by Jason JensenRelated episodes:244. Finding Strength in Desperation, with Mandy SmithSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Discover why real transformation happens when leaders have the courage to journey with people into their sorrow and bring the hope of Christ to the places of deepest pain.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Andrew Root in Ep. 270, Evangelism as Consolation:"What we really need, what people yearn for, is someone who will journey with them into their sorrow and to proclaim and witness to a Jesus Christ who is present in sorrow."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders embody the gospel by journeying with people into their pain and sorrow.Churches bring transformation by listening to and addressing the pain of their neighbors.Faithful leadership means grieving alongside others while holding on to hope.Evangelism becomes good news when we accompany others in their sorrow, not just share inspiring visions.Congregations foster trust and transformation by walking with people through loss and change.Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

The COVID-19 crisis pushed churches to reimagine everything from Sunday worship to committee meetings, often thrusting them onto unfamiliar digital ground. Navigating livestreams, Zoom calls, and online communion, ministry leaders have had to ask: What does it mean to truly be the body of Christ in a hybrid or even fully online world?In this episode, Michael Huerter, author of The Hybrid Congregation, talks about the theological and practical implications of digital ministry, how technology is shaping Christian community today, and what it looks like to do incarnational ministry in a time when “embodiment” often includes both physical and digital presence.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Michael Huerter identifies the technological revolution as a challenge that forces churches to quickly adapt, especially accelerated by the COVID-19 pandemic.Churches adapted rapidly to online worship out of necessity, often improvising by streaming or recording services for the first time.Michael Huerter describes the struggle of clergy to reflect theologically about worship changes while managing weekly ministry demands.The shift to online ministry required pastors to find new ways to foster belonging and community amid isolation.Integrating online technology into church life raises theological questions but can also expand accessibility and connection.Michael Huerter explains that congregations faced difficult questions around sacraments, like communion, during virtual services and responded differently based on tradition.Worship communities discovered that virtual meetings, such as board meetings and Bible studies, created new conveniences and altered expectations for gathering together.Online ministry allows for broader participation, particularly for those unable to attend in person due to distance, weather, or health.Michael Huerter discusses the tension between the benefits of hybrid models and the losses in personal connection that come from shifting meetings and worship online.Participating in both physical and online ministry offers unique strengths and limitations in forming authentic community.The theological call to be incarnational does not require rejecting technology; rather, ministry can thoughtfully incorporate digital tools as part of discipleship.Michael Huerter pushes back against the idea that digital practices conflict with incarnational theology, highlighting historical uses of technology in church growth.Passive participation in online worship, such as listening to music or liturgy, still engages the body and spirit and remains spiritually meaningful.Michael Huerter urges pastors to approach technology with a people-first mindset, focusing on community needs rather than pursuing reach or production value for its own sake.Discernment, curiosity, and pastoral care are key for churches navigating ongoing technological changes and competing values in ministry.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Books mentioned:The Hybrid Congregation, by Michael Huerter131: Spiritual Leadership in the Digital Space, with Laura MurraySend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Discover how stepping into discomfort and crossing borders—literal and metaphorical—can transform you and your leadership in ways you never imagined.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Seth Clark in Ep. 268, Borderless Faith:“Somehow there is this thing happening at the border that I get to participate in, that is making a difference and reminding people of God's love and hopefully drawing them into God's love in a new way.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders grow when they lean into uncomfortable situations outside their comfort zones.People foster change by entering new spaces with curiosity and a learner’s mindset.Resistance offers leaders the opportunity to ask what others are trying to protect.Leaders build relationships when they come alongside those who push back.Ministry participants rediscover God’s love by engaging in boundary-crossing work.Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Ministry can stir up all kinds of feelings, especially when we’re dealing with conflict, with grief, with change. And the better we understand what’s happening beneath the surface, the better we can lead ourselves—and our people—more thoughtfully and more effectively.In this episode, I’m speaking with Dr. Audrey Davidheiser, a licensed psychologist and the author of Grieving Wholeheartedly. Audrey helps us understand something called Internal Family Systems—IFS—a powerful way of thinking about our inner world and all those “parts” of us that can get in the way of effective leadership.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Audrey Davidheiser explains what drew her to Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy.Internal Family Systems is a psychological model that views people as having multiple internal "parts."Parts of yourself often express themselves in day-to-day decisions, sometimes even in conflict with each other.Markus Watson clarifies that having "parts" is different from dissociative identity disorder or multiple personalities.Audrey Davidheiser explains the difference between parts in IFS and the rigid, unaware system found in Dissociative Identity Disorder.Internal Family Systems builds on the foundation of family systems theory, adapting it to the internal world.Inside everyone are parts that take on different roles, often formed in response to significant experiences, such as trauma or relational wounds.Markus Watson illustrates the concept with the example of feeling different internal responses to everyday situations like going to a late-night movie.Every person has both helpful and challenging internal parts, such as critics, achievers, or comfort-seekers, and these parts influence behavior.Audrey Davidheiser introduces three types of parts in IFS: exiles (hurt parts), managers (protective parts), and firefighters (distracting/soothing parts).Parts are not inherently bad; even when their actions are destructive, they are typically trying to protect us or relieve pain.Markus Watson inquires about the relationship between sin and IFS, prompting Audrey Davidheiser to articulate how parts can miss the mark despite good intentions.Pastors can benefit from understanding their own internal parts, especially when reacting to challenging questions or situations in ministry.Audrey Davidheiser suggests the practice of being "unblended"—letting the true Self, rather than an emotional part, lead when responding to others.Leaders who operate from their "Self" (instead of from a part) can foster healthier responses and guide their communities through change with greater empathy and wisdom.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Audrey DavidheiserAim For Breakthrough websiteBooks mentioned:Grieving Wholeheartedly, by Audrey DavidheiserRelated Episodes:262: From Fired to Flourishing, with Chuck DeGroat254: Endless Expectations and Emotional ExhaustionSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Learn how keeping “the main thing the main thing” can transform your church’s mission, focus your decisions, and unite your community as one body in Christ.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Terry A. Smith in Ep. 266, The Church as Shalom Maker:"I work so hard to make sure that we keep the main thing the main thing, that we don't get caught up in things that keep us from who we are supposed to be as one body in Christ."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders clarify the main purpose by engaging in candid conversations about mission.Churches discern their mission by identifying who they are called to reach and impact.Teams make decisions more effectively when their mission and values are clearly defined.Leaders recognize that clarity about core values prepares organizations for necessary change.Focusing on the main thing helps communities avoid distractions from their calling as one body in Christ.Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Bias isn’t always about the big, obvious issues. Sometimes it shows up in the subtle, everyday moments—like who we compliment, who we listen to, and how we respond to change. It’s part of being human, but as leaders, it’s our calling to become aware of those biases so we can lead with greater humility and clarity.In this episode, Erin Devers, author of The Unbiased Self, shares the science behind bias, why it’s so hard to see in ourselves, and how anchoring our identity in Christ creates the freedom to lead—and live—in a much healthier and more effective way.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Bias is anything that prevents people from seeing reality accurately, not just issues of race or gender.Erin Devers describes a "cute" experiment where giving compliments—even insincerely—boosts happiness for both giver and receiver.People underestimate how enjoyable giving and receiving compliments will be, which shows a bias against social engagement.Erin Devers highlights that everyone has biases, and recognizing them is foundational to personal and spiritual growth.People have a "bias blind spot," making it much easier to see others' biases than their own.Erin Devers emphasizes Jesus’ teaching about removing the plank from one’s own eye as a reference to addressing personal bias.Self-esteem plays a major role in bias, as people spin stories to feel good about themselves, sometimes at the expense of accuracy.Attempts to feel right and to feel good about oneself are two core sources of bias in human thinking.Markus Watson connects the discussion to everyday church life, pointing out how bias impacts how pastors perceive congregants.Erin Devers explains that a secure identity as a child of God and sinner saved by grace allows Christians to pursue accuracy rather than always needing to be right.Rooting identity in something secure—whether faith-based or intrinsic human value—helps people approach disagreement with less defensiveness.Broadening perspective, such as considering larger life questions or relational values, helps reduce bias in emotionally charged situations.Erin Devers discusses the difference between fast thinking (quick, automatic judgments) and slow thinking (deliberate, reflective thought) and how both relate to bias.Habit formation and intentional practices like reducing social media can create space for deeper connection, reflection, and less biased engagement within communities.Markus Watson addresses how pastors identify which congregants will support or resist change, revealing how bias shapes leadership decisions.Erin Devers encourages church leaders to acknowledge the collective bias toward doing what is easiest when leading change, while grounding stability in God’s presence.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Erin Devers, Indiana Wesleyan UniversityBooks mentioned:The Unbiased Self, by Erin DeversRelated episodes:252. Navigating the Pain of Being Othered, with Jenai AumanSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.