242. Life and Leadership in the Fog, with Michaela O'Donnell and Lisa Slayton, authors of Life in Flux

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!We talk a lot about leading through uncertainty on this podcast.  But in this episode, the emphasis will be on navigating uncertainty in our own lives.  In this conversation, Michaela O'Donnell and Lisa Slayton, co-authors of Life in Flux, discuss the importance of "uncommon postures" when navigating the fog in life, building personal adaptive capacity, and the need to pause and listen in the midst of uncertainty.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Lisa Slayton challenges default behaviors and encourages developing uncommon postures to better support oneself.Michaela O'Donnell emphasizes the need to embrace change rather than avoid it, recognizing that old methods won't work for future challenges.Slayton identifies personal awakening catalysts as recognizing potential possibilities or facing pain and disruptions.Adaptive work involves recognizing that past methods won't suffice for future challenges, according to Michaela O'Donnell.The metaphor of a ship in the fog illustrates the need for intentional stillness in uncertain times.Slayton describes how cutting the engine in a fog-bound boat is a counterintuitive but necessary action to regain direction.Markus Watson reflects on personal experiences with uncertainty, realizing challenges can be embraced even when they are "unfigureoutable."Slayton shares an experience with a church team and stresses the importance of exploration and adaptation.Navigating ambiguity involves recognizing multiple paths forward, not just one clear solution, notes Michaela O'Donnell.Leadership should shift from problem-solving to curiosity, embracing uncertainty and adaptive learning.Markus Watson discusses the clarity of identity in understanding personal strengths and aligning roles accordingly.The Enneagram aids in understanding personal and leadership styles amidst change, recognizing strengths and limits.Lisa Slayton emphasizes the challenges pastors face due to excessive expectations and the need for managing these effectively.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Church Leadership InstituteDe Pree Center for LeadershipTamim PartnersLifeinFlux.coFlourish San DiegoBooks mentioned:Life in Flux, by Michaela O’Donnell and Lisa SlaytonRelated Episodes:Episode 114: Meaningful Work, with Michaela O’DonnellEpisode 48: Integrity and Coherence in Leadership, with Lisa SlaytonDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Markus Watson chats with Tod Bolsinger about a profound quote from Gayle Beebe, President of Westmont College. They explore the significance of staying emotionally present with your organization, its people, and its mission, especially during crises. The conversation highlights the balance between gaining perspective ('balcony' view) and staying connected (‘dance floor’ engagement), essential for fostering trust and effective leadership. Perfect for those navigating the complexities of ministry leadership.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Gayle Beebe in Ep 220, Leading Through Tragedy, Adversity, and Crisis:"You have to stay emotionally present to the organization, to the people in the organization, to the mission of the organization so that you can make adjustments that actually allow you to prevail."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Ministry leaders must stay emotionally present to effectively lead organizations through crises.Gayle Beebe emphasizes the importance of connecting with the mission and people of the organization.Leaders need to balance the perspectives of the balcony (overall strategy) and the dance floor (emotional connection).Building trust through emotional attunement accelerates change within an organization.Leaders must acknowledge and manage their own emotions to make mission-focused decisions.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!How do we cultivate an environment where transparency and open communication becomes the norm rather than the exception?In this episode, Uli Chi, author of The Wise Leader, brings a wealth of experience in business and church leadership to discuss how we can foster open communication, why humility in leadership is so critical, and the importance of pursuing a "wisdom from above" in our leadership.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Wisdom from above is God's wisdom, a comprehensive approach to life that is beyond just spiritual or intellectual understanding.Uli Chi emphasizes the importance of creating a culture where honesty is welcomed, allowing team members to express their true thoughts to leadership.Uli shares a personal experience where he sought external consultants to understand issues within his company, highlighting the difficulty in getting people to speak candidly.Leaders must create normalized spaces for open and honest conversations.Wisdom requires a communal approach; it is developed through relationships and shared experiences rather than in isolation.Uli Chi discusses his 50-year affiliation with his community, emphasizing the value of long-term relationships.Markus Watson expresses admiration for Uli Chi's book, "The Wise Leader," and encourages reading it for insights on becoming a wise leader.Uli Chi underscores humility as fundamental to wise leadership, viewing leadership as a role of service, not dominance.Humility involves using power for the benefit of others, reflecting a servant mindset preached by Jesus.Leaders must recognize human finiteness and fallibility, accepting that they don't know everything and can be wrong.Directive leadership involves knowing when to give directions after gathering input, which is often essential in pastoral roles.Uli Chi criticizes "heroic leadership" that elevates leaders to a godlike status, as it can stifle open communication and genuine feedback.Effective leaders create safe spaces for diverse voices, reflecting the model of shared wisdom.Uli Chi values contrarian voices and finds it beneficial to have people, like his wife, who challenge his ideas, enhancing decision-making and leadership effectiveness.Uli Chi concludes that understanding and knowing something truly requires loving it, aligning with the concept of the epistemology of love.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Uli Chi:De Pree Center for LeadershipBooks mentioned:The Wise Leader, by Uli ChiRelated episodes:46. Inviting the Real, with Esther Lightcap Meek58. Communion with Reality, with Esther Lightcap MeekDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss the immense pressures faced by pastors today, as articulated by Tim Alberta. Tim highlighted how congregants increasingly expect pastors to function beyond their traditional roles, turning them into part-time pundits and cultural commentators on a myriad of contentious issues ranging from masking and vaccines to abortion and trans rights. Markus and Tod examine the challenges this poses, especially during heightened political seasons, and explore strategies for pastors to manage these pressures healthily, emphasizing the importance of honesty, mission focus, and relational support.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Tim Alberta in Ep 234, Political Power and American Evangelicalism:"What I kept coming back to was this immense pressure on pastors to be more than a pastor. In other words, their congregants in so many cases are looking to them in this moment saying, 'Okay. So, what about masking? What about the vaccine?  What about the trans issue?  What about abortion? What about, I mean, about everything.'...  They start to view their pastor as sort of a part-time pastor, but also a kind of part-time pundit, a part-time cultural commentator, part-time prognosticator of world events."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Pastors face immense pressure to address a wide range of social and political issues.Congregants often expect pastors to act as experts beyond their theological training.Effective leadership includes honestly admitting when answers are unclear.Addressing political tensions in congregations requires a commitment to the mission of following Jesus.Building strong relationships and seeking support helps pastors navigate crises and maintain integrity.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Is it possible to lead a congregation without being consumed by anxiety and stress? How can we as ministry leaders manage the pressures and expectations we carry while maintaining a sense of peace and lightness?In this episode, Alan Fadling, author of A Non-Anxious Life, unpacks how ministry leaders can navigate anxiety by creating a supportive network of friends and mentors, understanding God’s joyful nature, and how these realities can transform our personal life and pastoral leadership.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Alan Fadling advises not bringing personal anxiety into a congregation but sharing it with friends, mentors, therapists, and spiritual directors.  Alan Fadling highlights that his experience with managing anxiety has been supported by people outside his immediate church community.  Referencing Lewis Smedes' Shame and Grace, Markus Watson illustrates how acceptance from others can help people feel less anxious and more acceptable.  Discussing his book about anxiety with a church small group, Alan Fadling emphasizes the value of having outside perspectives to reassure one's concerns.  Understanding God's joyful nature can lead to personal transformation and fuller acceptance of grace.  Markus Watson relates a story about providing comfort rather than judgment, illustrating how fear and anxiety are addressed in a supportive manner.  Categorizing anxiety as a sin is unhelpful, Fadling emphasizes, especially from a pastoral perspective.  Referencing Eugene Peterson's interpretation from Philippians 4, Alan Fadling focuses on replacing anxiety with peace through prayer.  We should recognize God's presence in anxious moments through prayer and reflection rather than avoid anxiety.  Inspired by Dallas Willard, Fadling shares a personal practice of using scripture to find peace amidst anxiety.  Psalms of Lament can help engage with and express anxiety while relying on God's support.  Journaling with honesty, as practiced by Alan Fadling, serves as a personal dialogue with God and reinforces that God cares and one is not alone.  Fadling’s early ministry concerns included whether congregants liked him, stemming from personal insecurity.  Discussing a "recognition deficit," Alan Fadling notes the mistake of seeking validation from congregations instead of from God.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Alan Fadling:Unhurriedliving.comUnhurried Living PodcastBooks mentioned:A Non-Anxious Life, by Alan FadlingThe Wounded Healer, by Henri NouwenShame and Grace, by Lewis SmedesEmotionally Healthy Spirituality, by Lewis SmedesRelated Episodes:The Healing Power of Pilgrimage, with Jon HuckinsSaudade, Leadership, and Nurturing the Inner Life, with Jeff CrosbyDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger discuss the importance of framing for church leaders, particularly in the context of political polarization. Drawing on a quote from Andrew Hanauer, they explore how providing a Biblical framework to congregants can shape their understanding of the world and mitigate the influence of external, often divisive, narratives. Through practical advice and insightful examples, they illustrate how asking the right questions can lead to transformative perspectives grounded in faith.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Andrew Hanauer in Ep 226, Tackling Toxic Polarization in Your Church:"If you don't help your congregants have a framework for understanding the world around them, they will get that framework from somewhere else."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Ministry leaders can frame questions to help congregants see the world through the eyes of Jesus.Leaders should encourage their congregants to develop a biblical framework for understanding the world.Leaders should prompt curiosity through questions instead of giving lectures.Leaders can use personal stories to help congregants empathize and rethink their preconceived notions.Congregants will find alternative, potentially harmful frameworks if leaders do not provide a biblical one.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!How can our churches reach out to families with autistic members in such a way that the Gospel is good news for them?  And how might we need to adapt the way we do church in order to be good news for those with autism in their families?Dr. David Quel, adjunct professor at Wesley Theological Seminary--and father to three autistic sons--reveals strategies for creating a welcoming environment in our churches for families with autistic members, how to adapt our ministries to meet their needs, and the emotional and spiritual journey of parenting autistic children.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:David Quel shares how he and his wife discovered that not just one, but all three of his sons were autistic.It was difficult for David Quel and his wife to find the kind of family and church support they needed as a family with three non-high-functioning autistic children.David Quel underscores the essential need for emotional, spiritual, mental, and compassionate awareness of autism in church ministry.David Quel shares a story about his church setting up a sensory room designed specifically for children with autism.This sensory room included items like big fluffy pillows, beanbags, and sensory toys to ensure children's safety.David Quel discusses challenges and solutions in creating worship services tailored for children with autism.Traditional formats like responsive readings and long sermons are challenging for children with autism.David Quel highlights the need for music that is more upbeat to engage children with autism compared to traditional hymns.Efforts by David’s church to create separate worship services showed significant commitment but also revealed the struggle to let go of traditional practices.David Quel recommends the book Autism and Your Church by Barbara J. Newman for further guidance.Interviewing families to understand their specific needs and triggers is crucial to contextual ministry.Identifying willing volunteers with relevant experience or a willingness to learn can make a significant difference when adapting your church ministry to families with autism.David Quel emphasizes seeing individuals with autism as God’s creations, deserving of love and support.Steps churches can take to support families with autism:Set up sensory roomsTailor specialized worship servicesInterview and understand families with autismIdentify and train volunteersPromote inclusivityRELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:BeADisciple.comAutism and the Church Part 1Autism and the Church Part 2Wesley Theological SeminaryBooks mentioned:Autism and Your Church, by Barbara J. NewmanRelated Episodes:Tackling Adaptive Challenges in Your Church, with Angie WardExploring New Forms of Church, with Shannon KiserDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger explore the concept of power within the framework of discipleship and adaptive leadership, inspired by a quote from Michael Rhodes. They discuss how power, when used responsibly, can prevent harm and support the vulnerable, such as orphans, immigrants, and widows. The conversation delves into the transformative potential of Jesus' use of power, emphasizing that true leadership requires the release and sharing of power to foster justice and love. They conclude with reflections on the societal challenges of redefining power in ways that uplift and protect the most vulnerable in the community.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Michael Rhodes in Ep 200, The Justice Feast:“How does our discipleship help us become people who faithfully exercise power in community, particularly on behalf of the orphan, the immigrant, and the widow?”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Tod Bolsinger explores the concept of power and its importance in preventing evil and harm.Discipleship involves using power to protect the most vulnerable, such as orphans, immigrants, and widows.Adaptive leadership emphasizes transformation and inclusivity, drawing from many voices within a community.Jesus demonstrates ultimate power by sacrificing himself for others, illustrating love and justice in the kingdom of God.Effective leadership requires adapting and redefining traditional views of power and authority.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Here in the U.S. the impact of the election and the campaigns of Donald Trump and Kamala Harris are inescapable.In this episode, Tim Alberta, author of The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism, discusses the unsettling trend of political polarization in the church, the role of pastors in responding to the pressure to reclaim a "Christian America," and the importance of having diverse relationships as we navigate this season of polarization.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Tim Alberta shares his story of being criticized for his political views while at his father's funeral.Tim Alberta expresses concern over the perceived decline of "Christian America."Alberta warns about the losses incurred when churches self-select into narrow ideological spaces.Diverse relationships are necessary for spiritual growth and addressing complex issues.Markus Watson mentions Allen Hilton and Andrew Hanauer’s organizations working to address political polarization. These organizations bring different churches together to facilitate conversations and humanize each other.Alberta discusses how American Christians often view the U.S. as a nation set apart or a new Israel in covenant with God. This belief leads to a conflation of defending America with defending God.Some Christians view political opponents as cultural and spiritual adversaries, treating political warfare as spiritual warfare.There seems to be a fear among evangelicals of losing status, indoctrination of children, and being targeted by the government.Alberta discusses the shift from a culture sympathetic to Christian ideals to one perceived as hostile, creating a siege mentality.There seems to be a sense of entitlement within the evangelical community, akin to the belief of the ancient people of Israel..Tim Alberta highlights the difficulty for Christians to relate to scriptural suffering due to comfort and wealth in America.Some Christians compromise their virtues to reclaim a "Christian America," engaging in unethical behavior for a perceived greater good.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Tim Alberta:www.bytimalberta.comThe AtlanticTwitter/X - @TimAlbertaBooks mentioned:The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory, by Tim AlbertaAmerican Carnage, by Tim AlbertaRelated episodes:Tackling Toxic Polarization in Your Church, with Allen Hilton and Andrew HanauerLeading Your Church Through Political Division, with Allen HiltonGrace-Filled Politics, with Aaron SchaferDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Send me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger explore how to discern and join in what God is doing in the world. They discuss the importance of humility, recognizing God's ongoing work beyond the church, and adopting practical spiritual disciplines. Tod shares personal practices, like evening prayers of gratitude and a mindset that sees God's activity through the night, to better align with God’s work. They emphasize listening to both God and others to understand the broader context of God's presence and action.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Tim Soerens in Ep 204, How to Cultivate Presence in Your Community:“What is God up to? And how do I join in it? And what are the practices and postures and prompts that we need to keep asking ourselves in order to join in what God's doing?”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Tod advises starting the day with the mindset that God has already been at work throughout the night.Tim Soerens' quote emphasizes the need to discern what God is doing rather than trying to get God to join in our own plans.Markus encourages listening to the people in our communities to understand their hopes and fears.Tod highlights the importance of praying for God's kingdom to come on earth as it already exists in heaven.Markus reframes the perspective of a megachurch to see itself as a small part of the larger body of Christ.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!