“We're measuring the wrong things”: A conversation with Cherry Casey

What happens when we measure children's learning, development and success through a narrow set of metrics? And what gets lost along the way? In this episode, Dr James Mannion and The Real David Cameron speak to journalist Cherry Casey, author of Childhood Ltd: How We Turned Children into Data and Why We Need to Stop, about the growing influence of measurement, data and competition across childhood, childcare and education. Cherry argues that assessment itself is not the problem. Rather, we have become so focused on what can be measured that we risk neglecting the things that matter most – children's wellbeing, self-esteem, relationships, enjoyment of learning and freedom to develop in their own ways. The conversation explores the unintended consequences of high-stakes assessment, the pressure placed on children from an increasingly young age, and the tension between academic attainment and a broader conception of human flourishing. In this episode, we discuss: - Measuring the wrong things: How an over-reliance on quantifiable measures can distort practice and diminish the things that are harder to measure. - The commercialisation of childhood: How market-driven approaches and private investment can shape childcare and education, sometimes at the expense of children's wellbeing. - Starting formal education too early: What happens when academic expectations outpace children's developmental readiness, and why play matters. - Reading for pleasure: Why learning to decode words is not the same as becoming a reader – and how schools can nurture a lasting love of books. - Competition, discipline and school accountability: Whether raising the stakes genuinely raises standards, or simply encourages institutions to perform better against the measures being used. - The hidden costs of high achievement: How pressure to succeed can undermine confidence, self-worth and engagement, even when pupils achieve strong grades. - Rethinking assessment: How we might broaden what we assess and value, including creativity, collaboration, problem-solving, relationships and the ability to apply learning in unfamiliar contexts. - Learning to flourish: Why education needs to attend to the whole child, rather than treating academic attainment as the primary measure of success. The conversation also considers what we can learn from schools that prioritise relationships, belonging and a love of learning, and why listening to teachers, children and families is essential to building a better system. If we change what we measure, we may change what we treasure. LINKS Cherry Casey – The UK has a forced adoption problem (Prospect) https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/society/60185/the-uk-has-a-forced-adoption-problem BOOK: Childhood Ltd by Cherry Casey - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Childhood-Ltd-Cherry-Casey/dp/1837733430 SUPPORT THE SHOW This podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It’s presented by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean. Get 20% off all titles at https://www.crownhouse.co.uk with the promo code REPOD20 (excludes bundles and existing promotions). Become a patron at https://www.patreon.com/repod or make a one-off donation at https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod – and help us keep these conversations coming.

What if our obsession with academic achievement is getting in the way of broader human development? James and David are joined by Sugata Mitra to question some deeply entrenched assumptions about what schools are for, what children really need to know, and what happens when technology changes the rules. They explore: - Why do we privilege academic subjects over everything else? - What does the “end of knowing” mean in the age of AI? - What did Sugata’s famous Hole in the Wall experiments actually show? - Can children really learn without being taught? - What is the “grandmother method” – and how can adults spark thought rather than simply provide answers? - Why does Sugata think assessment is the key to changing the whole education system? - What happens when you give children AI instead of Google? - And perhaps the biggest question of all: what is education actually for? A provocative conversation about knowledge, curiosity, exams, AI, self-directed learning and the future of education – with some surprisingly radical answers. Links Sugata’s TED talks – His talks on child-driven education, self-organised learning and the School in the Cloud - https://www.ted.com/speakers/sugata_mitra Hole in the Wall research paper – The 2005 research paper examining children’s acquisition of computing literacy through shared public computers - https://ajet.org.au/index.php/AJET/article/view/1328 The Delors Report – Learning: The Treasure Within – The UNESCO report that introduced the four pillars of education: learning to know, do, be, and live together - https://www.unesco.org/en/futures-education/visions-education Support the show This podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. Get 20% off all titles at https://www.crownhouse.co.uk with the promo code REPOD20 (excludes bundles and existing promotions). Become a patron at https://www.patreon.com/repod or make a one-off donation at https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod – and help us keep these conversations coming.

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What if one of the biggest assumptions underpinning modern education is simply wrong? We tend to think of the mind as the place where the important stuff happens – thinking, reasoning, remembering and learning – while the body is something we carry around with us. But what if there is no meaningful separation between the two? In this episode, James and David are joined by Guy Claxton and Emily Poel, authors of Bodies of Learning: How Embodiment Science Transforms Education, to explore what happens when we take the body seriously as part of intelligence and learning. The conversation begins with the historical roots of the mind-body split and its influence on education. Guy argues that the hierarchy of subjects in schools – with mathematics and other highly abstract subjects traditionally occupying the top of the pecking order, while PE, dance, drama and practical subjects are given lower status – reflects a much deeper cultural assumption that intelligence belongs primarily to the mind. We then explore the emerging field of embodiment science and the idea of 4E cognition – embodied, enactive, embedded and extended. Rather than seeing the brain as a detached command centre controlling the body, this perspective sees intelligent behaviour as emerging from the constant interaction between brain, body, environment and other people. Guy explains why predictive processing provides such a powerful way of thinking about learning. We are constantly making predictions about the world, and learning happens when those predictions are disrupted – when we are surprised, confused, frustrated or uncertain. Learning, in this sense, is much more than committing information to memory. We also discuss: Why the language of “bodymind” feels so strange at first – and why we should persevere with this term. How our emotions, bodily states and sense of salience influence what we learn. Why the brain may be better understood as a “chat room” than a command centre. What embodiment science tells us about the limitations of purely cognitive explanations of children's behaviour and learning. Why progressive approaches such as inquiry, experiential, project-based and hands-on learning may have more in common than we realise. Whether schools should deliberately cultivate learning dispositions such as curiosity, persistence, empathy and collaboration – rather than focusing primarily on examination performance. Why promising approaches to education have often remained isolated rather than being scaled. The 87 practical things to try in Bodies of Learning, from increasing body awareness to using movement, physical space, play and imagination as part of learning. What an embodied approach might actually look like in different subjects, classrooms and schools. And, finally, Guy's suggestion for the poster that should hang in every teacher training institution and staffroom. This is a wide-ranging conversation about neuroscience, psychology, philosophy, education and human development. But ultimately it comes back to a deceptively simple question: What are schools actually for? If education is partly about helping young people become more capable, curious, resilient, empathetic and intelligent human beings, perhaps we need a much richer conception of what intelligence and learning actually are. About our guests Guy Claxton is Emeritus Professor of the Learning Sciences at the University of Winchester Centre for Real-World Learning, UK, and author of The Future of Teaching and Intelligence in the Flesh: Why Your Mind Needs Your Body Much More Than It Thinks. Emily Poel is a Berlin-based embodiment practitioner and trainer with a background in somatic practices, contemporary dance and history. She develops approaches that show how movement and physical awareness shape learning, thinking and creativity, and has taught internationally for over 15 years.

Too many young people are getting a "desiccated" education – narrow, information-transfer schooling optimised for exams. In this episode, James and David are joined by Liz Robinson and Sarah Seleznyov of Big Education – the "feisty little multi-academy trust" behind School 21, School 360 and Surrey Square – to make the case for something bigger: an education of the head (academic learning), heart (wellbeing and relationships) and hand (creativity and skills). The conversation centres on the new book from the Rethinking School project, A Practical Guide to a Big Education: Balancing Head, Heart and Hand, edited by Sarah Seleznyov and Robert Lobatto – a collection of chapters written by school leaders and teachers who are actually doing this work, each paired with a vignette from another school and reflective questions to help you find your own way in. Not a recipe book, but an invitation to be a little bit braver. In this episode we explore: -Why pedagogy was written out of the Curriculum and Assessment Review – and why curriculum, pedagogy and assessment have to change together ("if you only pull one string in the marionette, it jerks") -England's uniquely narrow definition of curriculum and learning – and how it compares with models from around the world -What Big Education is, and what an education of the head, heart and hand actually means -The Milburn report on youth unemployment – and why the problems start in Year 1, not at upper secondary -Liz's "soapbox rant": Every Child Matters, extended schools, co-located services – and what was lost when it was all set on fire -Think systemically, act systematically: systems thinking, design thinking and vertical slice change teams Authentic leadership: vulnerability, ego, the kelp metaphor – and why Liz is learning to bring "Lizzie" to work -Being evidence-informed: why data is richer than numbers, the trouble with RCTs and the EEF toolkit, and engaging with research and in research -Interdisciplinary project-based learning – and the jaw-dropping story of the Ofsted inspector who withheld 'outstanding' because children didn't know their learning was called history -Can we teach and assess transferable competencies? And do we have to trade exam results for a broader education? (Spoiler: no) -Lessons from curriculum reform in Scotland, Wales and British Columbia – why transforming practice takes time, investment and serious professional development -Why we need revolution, not evolution About the guests Liz Robinson is co-founder and CEO of Big Education. She became a headteacher at 29, leading Surrey Square Primary in south London for many years, and created the Big Leadership Adventure. She advocates for – and models – an authentic, reflective and relational approach to leadership. Sarah Seleznyov is Strategic Project Lead at Big Education and leads the Rethinking School project. She has worked in London schools for over 25 years as a deputy head, school improvement consultant and teaching school director, and previously led research-informed leadership programmes at the UCL Institute of Education. Her research specialism is Japanese lesson study. Links Get the book: A Practical Guide to a Big Education: Balancing Head, Heart and Hand – https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/practical-guide-to-a-big-education-9781801997928/ Big Education: https://bigeducation.org The Rethinking School project (subsidised places available – get in touch!): https://bigeducation.org/rethinking-school/ Rethinking Assessment: https://rethinkingassessment.com Support the show This podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. Get 20% off all titles at https://www.crownhouse.co.uk with the promo code REPOD20 (excludes bundles and existing promotions). Become a patron at https://www.patreon.com/repod or make a one-off donation at https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod – and help us keep these conversations coming.

This might be the most important conversation we've had on this podcast. There's a science of how human beings actually learn – and much of what happens in schools runs against the grain of it. In this episode, James is joined by affective neuroscience specialist Mike Goves and returning guest Kate McAllister, founder of the Hive in the Dominican Republic, to make that case from two directions at once: the research that explains it, and a school already living it. The core idea is deceptively simple: we learn what we care about, not what we're told. Mike makes the scientific case that affect – the felt sense of how good or bad something is – is biologically primary to all learning and memory. Kate offers the living proof: an environment she built, long before she had the vocabulary for it, around children's genuine curiosity and a daily practice of checking in on how they feel. When the science and the lived practice line up this precisely, it's hard to look at a normal classroom the same way again. Along the way we get into: - Why memory prioritises emotional salience over semantic accuracy – and why we reconstruct memories rather than retrieve them - The 'seesaw' model of attention: task focus (the executive control network) at one end, reflection and daydreaming (the default mode network) at the other, with the salience network as the pivot - The research suggesting that keeping young people permanently in task-focus mode may inhibit their development – linked to brain growth, wellbeing and life satisfaction well into their twenties - How narratives bind learning into identity, and why 'a person, a place, a problem' makes kids care about electrolysis - What this looks like in practice, from the freedom of the Hive to the real constraints of a 2,000-pupil urban secondary - A rich, wide-ranging conversation about emotion, meaning and what education could be if we took the biology seriously. Guests Mike Goves – psychology and neuroscience graduate turned teacher and school leader, now working at a multi-academy trust in Oxfordshire, with a growing focus on affect and affective neuroscience. He runs the Affective Learning Lab and has authored a white paper, The affective foundations of human learning, on the science discussed in this episode. Kate McAllister – founder of the Hive in the Dominican Republic and a long-time intuitive practitioner of affect-led, unschooling-inspired education. She returns to the podcast around five years after her first appearance. Links The Affective Learning Lab - https://affectivelearninglab.com White paper: The affective foundations of learning: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bCQYKfm5xbYmlrqG68sPlbbcyVjHrOSg/view Support #repod The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean. This podcast is a labour of love, with the emphasis on both the labour and the love. If you’d like to support the podcast and convey your appreciation for these conversations, you can: Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

Sophie Smith-Tong joins James and David to discuss her book Teacher Autonomy: Where Has It Gone and Why We Need It Back – and the conversation is as rich, funny, and urgent as the title suggests. Sophie is a teacher of 16 years and mental health and wellbeing lead, who came to the question of autonomy through noticing the human cost of a system built on fear. In this episode, she makes the case that the loss of teacher autonomy isn't just a professional grievance – it's a structural wound that affects children's learning, teachers' wellbeing, and the long-term health of the profession. In this episode we explore: - Why only 18% of teachers strongly agree they have freedom over how they do their work – and why Sophie thinks fear is at the root of it - James Callaghan's 'secret garden' speech and the long arc of tightening control since the 1970s - The 'fidelity' culture: from scripted lessons to approved emails to clocks as cognitive overload - Why wellbeing training is a sticking plaster – and what addressing the actual disease might look like - David's 'good tired vs bad tired' distinction, and why autonomy determines which one you get - Sophie's definition of autonomy: not self-rule without support, but self-governance within a collective direction - 'Aligned autonomy', 'connected autonomy', and the difference between tight purpose and loose practice - The curriculum and assessment review: evolution when revolution was needed? - Child autonomy in early years – and why it gets educated out of children by year one - Peter Gray's five educative instincts: curiosity, playfulness, sociability, willfulness, and planfulness - Practical starting points for leaders and teachers: noticing, getting curious, making small changes -The inner work required of controlling leaders – and why self-compassion is the first step Find Sophie: teacherautonomy.com mindfulnessforlearning.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mforlearning/ Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sophie-smith-tong-7b3891207/ Get the book: Teacher Autonomy: Where Has It Gone and Why We Need It Back by Sophie Smith-Tong https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1032874589 Support #repod The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean. This podcast is a labour of love, with the emphasis on both the labour and the love. If you’d like to support the podcast and convey your appreciation for these conversations, you can: Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

Power is everywhere in schools – in classrooms, staffrooms, policies, and conversations. Yet it is rarely named, examined, or understood. In this episode, James Mannion and David Cameron are joined by Dee Nic Sitric to explore how power operates – often invisibly – and what becomes possible when schools begin to surface it. Drawing on systemic thinking, neurodivergent perspectives, and real-world examples, this conversation examines how power shapes behaviour, relationships, decision-making, and ultimately outcomes for children and young people. Key ideas explored -Why power dynamics are largely invisible but highly influential in schools -The distinction between control and genuine systemic thinking -How slice teams redistribute power and improve decision-making -The role of psychological safety in enabling challenge and curiosity -Why ‘voice’ without influence is not real participation How power shows up in: behaviour systems classroom talk and oracy staff relationships policy and consultation processes The link between mattering (feeling valued + adding value) and power Why reflection – not compliance – is the engine of improvement Standout moments ‘Power isn’t static – it moves, shifts, and often sits where we least expect it.’ ‘Who is allowed to ask questions? That’s where the power lies.’ ‘We cannot be curious and judgemental at the same time.’ A vivid example of how a single interaction in an assembly can redistribute (or remove) power in seconds Practical implications Create structures where multiple perspectives genuinely shape decisions Build psychological safety so staff and students can question and contribute Move from ‘consultation’ to co-production Use reflection routines to examine: ‘Why did we act that way?’ ‘Whose voice was missing?’ Reframe behaviour and classroom talk as questions of power, not just technique About Dee Nic Sitric Dee is the founding director of Autism Champions, a neurodivergent-led organisation supporting schools and systems to better understand and respond to neurodivergent experiences. Her work focuses on systemic thinking, relational practice, and the lived realities of children, families, and staff navigating education systems. Call to action Reflect on your own setting: Who has the most power? Who feels able to speak? Whose perspectives are shaping decisions? Links Autism Champions - https://www.autismchampions.co.uk Follow Dee on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/dee-nic-sitric/ Support #repod The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean. This podcast is a labour of love, with the emphasis on both the labour and the love. If you’d like to support the podcast and convey your appreciation for these conversations, you can: Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

In this episode, James and David are joined by Sue Roffey – educational psychologist, researcher, and leading voice on wellbeing, social justice, and relational approaches to education. Sue traces her journey from working with young people facing emotional and behavioural challenges, through educational psychology and academia, to her current work developing the ASPIRE principles – a framework for reimagining education through agency, safety, positivity, inclusion, respect and equity. The conversation explores why wellbeing and learning are not competing priorities but deeply intertwined, and why many current approaches to behaviour and school improvement miss this fundamental point. Key themes include: - Why focusing on problems can limit progress – and the importance of vision-led change - The distinction between individual wellbeing and collective flourishing - The concept of ‘mattering’ – feeling valued and adding value - Why agency is essential for both students and teachers - How schools can create cultures of safety where mistakes support learning - The dangers of ‘exclusive belonging’ and the importance of inclusive communities - Practical examples from schools restoring pupils’ love of learning - The enduring relevance of UNESCO’s four pillars: learning to know, learning to do, learning to be, and learning to live together Sue also shares insights from her recent Love of Learning project, involving deep dives into schools across the UK that are successfully building cultures of connection, curiosity and care. This episode offers both a critique of current systems and a hopeful vision of what education could become when relationships, agency and shared humanity are placed at the centre. Links Sue’s website - Growing Great Schools Worldwide - https://www.growinggreatschoolsworldwide.com/who-we-are/sue-roffey/ The primary school where every day starts with dancing - https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/videos/cgqe0pv8vepo Support #repod This podcast is a labour of love, with the emphasis on both the labour and the love. If you’d like to support the podcast and convey your appreciation for these conversations, you can: Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod The Rethinking Education podcast is sponsored by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean.

“It’s not about teacher-centred or student-centred. I would argue it’s dialogue-centred.” In this episode of the Rethinking Education podcast, Dr James Mannion and The Read David Cameron explore these questions with Professor Rupert Wegerif, author of Rethinking Educational Theory: Education as Expanding Dialogue. Rupert has spent decades researching how dialogue shapes thinking and learning. Drawing on work with Neil Mercer and the Thinking Together programme, he shows how teaching children to reason and talk together can improve thinking, deepen understanding across subjects, and even transform classroom culture. But this conversation goes far beyond classroom strategies. Rupert argues that dialogue is not just a teaching technique – it is a fundamental way of understanding knowledge, identity, and even reality itself. In this wide-ranging discussion we explore: - Why teaching children how to talk together can dramatically improve learning outcomes - The origins of the Thinking Together programme and what the research found in classrooms - Why group work often fails – and how simple ground rules for dialogue can transform it - The relationship between oracy, dialogue and thinking - The idea of culture as a “living tradition” that students must learn to participate in - How dialogue can bridge the long-running divide between traditional and progressive education - Rupert’s concept of “double dialogue” – learning through conversation with both peers and disciplinary traditions - Why education should be dialogue-centred, rather than teacher-centred or student-centred - The deeper philosophical idea that knowledge and meaning emerge through dialogic space - What generative AI means for education – and why dialogic thinking may matter more than ever Along the way, the conversation ranges from classroom practice to philosophy, drawing on thinkers such as Vygotsky, Bakhtin, Paulo Freire, Michael Oakeshott and Merleau-Ponty. The result is a fascinating exploration of education as something far richer than the transmission of information – a process of entering, expanding and contributing to the ongoing dialogue of human culture. About Rupert Wegerif Professor Rupert Wegerif is Professor of Education at the University of Cambridge. His work focuses on dialogic education, thinking and learning, and the role of dialogue in human development. He has worked extensively with Neil Mercer and others on the Thinking Together programme, exploring how structured dialogue can improve reasoning, understanding and collaboration in classrooms. Links Rupert’s Substack - https://rupertwegerif.substack.com Rupert’s website - https://www.rupertwegerif.com Support #repod The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean. This podcast is a labour of love, with the emphasis on both the labour and the love. If you’d like to support the podcast and convey your appreciation for these conversations, you can: Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod