#92: Doing the Work Out of the Wounds

The 90/10 principle simply means that 90% of the work of relational rebuilding is a husband’s responsibility post betrayal (+ 100% of a husband’s personal work). That 90% means going first, leading the process, holding the weight of the brokenness in the relationship, engaging, initiating, following through, amending, living forgivable and working on being trustworthy.    The 10% that is a wife’s work in the beginning is simply showing up and being a willing participant in the process, grieving, watching, waiting, navigating boundaries and needs, and finding a sense of security. That she has 10% isn’t suggesting that she’s got it easy; quite the opposite, her 10% is really hard.    Where things get wonky (especially in the early work) is when we move beyond focusing on a hubands personal work and relational rebuilding work, and shine the spotlight on a wife’s personal work. Shelley acknowledges that we all have work to do to grow and change, but the focus should not be on a wife’s personal work in the post-betrayal dynamic. Ideally that happens later, after a husband has paved the way.    Myth: There’s infidelity in that relationship, so that relationship must be broken.  Truth: There’s infidelity in that relationship, so there must be a broken person in that relationship. A broken relationship has ZERO bearing on infidelity.   Bottom line for Jason: God’s not calling me to call you to your work. Masterclasses for men for June include Foundations of Freedom and Handling Her Triggers. Follow the links to sign up! We will be planning the next RLW Retreat soon.  Jump on the interest list here if you want to be the first to know the dates and location for the next one (hopefully for this Fall!). We are hoping to do the next Empowered Boundary class for women this summer. Join the Wait List to be the first to know when the class opens again for registration. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast

As I listen to the first part of this episode, I am so thankful we aren’t where we were five months ago with our little puppy.  I will say - we are still considering getting rid of him because while he is much easier for us than he was five months ago, he is still a LOT.  I was giggling with how I was pronouncing words like diarrhea and nope.  Don’t mind me!   In this episode, we wanted to talk about this concept that his recovery, and more specifically his processing is personal but not private.  Jason talks about some men are told that certain things shouldn’t be shared - whether it’s what he is processing in between sessions, what he shared in groups, with his therapist, etc.   Since the acting out was in private, if we also do our recoveries in private - then we are perpetuating one of the issues that got him here in the first place:  living life in a container.   Here are some suggestions for men that are doing some decent recovery work:   - Let her have a choice as to if she wants to hear what he is processing. - She can’t be the container he always dumps into - there is a balance between dumping and working toward vulnerable intimacy.  It’s something we learn as we go and Jason speaks to this in the episode. - Awareness of “for” versus “at” when it comes to her emotions after he shares - if he is mad at her, it might show his deeper motivation was not from a place of being fully known (versus from a place of well, she told me she wanted to know what I was processing…). - Awareness of data versus experience when it comes to what he shares - we are looking for intimacy and vulnerability and his experience of himself in what he shares, not just the logistics of the day. - Awareness that when he comes to her to share - it’s a LOT for her - take it from me.  So tenderness is critical.   For those men that insist on needing privacy - Jason, being who Jason is and seeing the gray says - "okay, great, if you need this for a season".  I then say:  I think it needs to be less than a season.  More like here and there but always with the goal of coming back to being fully known and without containment.     Bottom line:  His demand for privacy is a barrier to the relational recovery.  The end.   We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #7. Masterclasses for men for June include Foundations of Freedom and Handling Her Triggers. Follow the links to sign up! We will be planning the next RLW Retreat soon.  Jump on the interest list here if you want to be the first to know the dates and location for the next one (hopefully for this Fall!). The WOHT workshop for men is SOLD OUT for April.  Jump on the interest list here if you want to be the first to know about the next WOHT workshop. We are hoping to do the next Empowered Boundary class for women this summer. Join the Wait List to be the first to know when the class opens again for registration. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast

We are back with part 2 of the lying episode. We jump in to talking about what helped Jason stop lying: #1 - Brute force effort to be honest as well as brute force effort to fight the addictive voice inside of him. (Jason said he would argue internally with the man he was fighting to become versus the old, addictive self pulling him back.) #2 - He came to a place of determination that he could handle the fall out. Out of this shift came one of Jason’s core recovery mantra’s: I’d rather lose you than lie to you. I chime in (and possibly take the convo in a different direction) and I talk about how when we lie - we are chipping away at our sense of selves. We become fragmented and disintegrated. Radical honesty is one of the ways we move toward integration and wholeness. Jason’s suggestions for men that are in the thick of recovery and need to stop lying: Document what the voices in your head tell you (about why you shouldn’t tell the truth) so that you know what you will be brute force fight against. Being accountable with others for telling the truth. Honesty amends work which will help him come to terms with the gravity of how he has lived. Identity work. We then talk about what she should expect - and I start by saying: we should expect him to NOT lie. You will hear me grappling with: should I have been a bit more gracious in the beginning? (Because I truly thought: what in the world is WRONG with him and please just STOP.) Expect him to not lie. Expect speedy self-regulation on his part and try to see the progress in him (if there indeed is progress). Expect that there is a journey that he will have to go through in order to see ALL the ways he has lied. We land the plane talking about polygraphs - which probably (really) needs to be a whole episode in and of itself. We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #7. The Spring RLW Retreat is SOLD OUT for May.  Jump on the interest list here if you want to be the first to know about the next RLW Women’s Retreat. The WOHT workshop for men is SOLD OUT for April.  Jump on the interest list here if you want to be the first to know about the next WOHT workshop. Empowered Boundaries is SOLD OUT. Join the Wait List to be the first to know when the class opens again for registration. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast

We are starting to come to the final bend in the road for Season #7, before we take a break. In this episode - we talk about lying - something that comes up a lot with the gals I connect with on Instagram as well as one of the things that was posted more than once in the question box on IG when I asked for podcast suggestions.   What I always say is: women are willing to do the excruciating work of healing from betrayal - but the lying is what becomes an impasse.   Here is what we are going to walk through:   1 - What lying looked like for Jason growing up. 2 - Why we lie. 3 - What should she expect. 4 - Suggestions for men.   As Jason spoke about what lying looked like growing up - he made a fascinating statement: "I valued honesty but deceived myself when dishonesty served me.” Essentially - he was lying to himself which is such a big problem that liars deal with. He also said - “The more deeply entrenched he was in his lying, the more he had to justify it in real life.”   Listening back to this episode gave me a deep feeling of unease with how sinister lying really is and how it corrupts us.   So why do we lie? Bottom line: it’s self-protective in an unhealthy way and its intimacy aversion at its finest. Jason also mentions that some of the why behind his lying was to protect me. I didn’t say this in the episode but as I listen to the replay - I don’t love what Jason is saying here - I realize he said: this isn’t a "feather in the cap" sort of thing - which I appreciate - but goodness, I just can’t get behind him lying to protect me…   We will be back next week with part 2 of lying.   We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #7.   The Spring RLW Retreat is SOLD OUT for May.  Jump on the interest list here if you want to be the first to know about the next RLW Women’s Retreat. The WOHT workshop for men is SOLD OUT for April.  Jump on the interest list here if you want to be the first to know about the next WOHT workshop. Empowered Boundaries is SOLD OUT. Join the Wait List to be the first to know when the class opens again for registration. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.

Hey Guys - We are so grateful for Emma’s willingness to share her story.  This is part 2. SO much richness in this episode - from Thomas’s brokenness and guttural crying to Emma’s vulnerability to the 2nd disclosure and Emma’s awareness of having to move the wall around her heart accordingly.  To Thomas’s ultimate willingness and of course - as mentioned in the last show notes:  Emma’s fortitude and not accepting less. Emma references a verse that Jason shared with her from Isaiah - hope to the hopeless.  She is referring to Isaiah 40:29-31 where it says - “but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength.” Emma then shares this:  Thomas is the biggest miracle I have EVER seen.  And I truly believe THIS is what we need to see post-betrayal.  This illuminates the wholesale change that each of us needs to see in him.  And that IS possible, as their story reflects. My hope for each of you listening is that you will see that God is STILL in the business of doing miracles.  While we can NOT force anyone to change - what we CAN do is be clear about what we are okay with and not okay with.  We can stand strong and keep the bar high.  And keep our expectations high. Toward the end of the episode, Jason mentions a humble and contrite husband and is referring to Psalm 51:17 - “a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise.” Emma’s email is:  [email protected] incase you have any questions or comments for her. We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #7. Click here for Thomas’s side of the story: God where are you? Part One and Part Two The Spring RLW Retreat is SOLD OUT for May.  Jump on the interest list here if you want to be the first to know about the next RLW Women’s Retreat. The WOHT workshop for men is SOLD OUT for April.  Jump on the interest list here if you want to be the first to know about the next WOHT workshop. Empowered Boundaries is SOLD OUT. Join the Wait List to be the first to know when the class opens again for registration. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.

We are thrilled to have Emma Berry with us on the podcast today!  Emma shares her side of the story with us both this week and next and we are so grateful she was willing to walk us through the ups and downs of her process with her husband, Thomas.  (See links below for Thomas’s side of the story, from several seasons back.) Ladies - what I want you to be listening for is the fortitude Emma shows through the ebbs and flows.  Fortitude literally means strength under pressure and I believe it’s one of the key ingredients in being able to set boundaries well and also navigate recovery well.  Emma was firm with her boundaries and she was not going to settle. From behind the 8 ball to the 8 bouncing off the table - Emma’s story is one of fortitude, firmness and focus.  We will be back next week with part 2. We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #7. Click here for Thomas’s side of the story: God where are you? Part One and Part Two The Spring RLW Retreat is SOLD OUT for May.  Jump on the interest list here if you want to be the first to know about the next RLW Women’s Retreat. The WOHT workshop for men is SOLD OUT for April.  Jump on the interest list here if you want to be the first to know about the next WOHT workshop. Empowered Boundaries is SOLD OUT. Join the Wait List to be the first to know when the class opens again for registration. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.

On this episode, we wanted to unpack what it looks like for men to do recovery out of the wounds (versus living recovery and not making everything about the wounds). Jason starts with explaining a bit more as to what he means by this: in the addiction (or integrity issue) - men are operating out of the wounds. In other words - the acting out mitigates the pain of the wounds. The same can happen in recovery - the recovery work mitigates (or is driven by) the wounds. I asked Jason to give an example from his own life (from early recovery). For instance - him wanting to be seen (to feel significant) for not acting out today.   Bottom line - it’s important for men to ask themselves: are you doing recovery in a way that recovery becomes the thing that mitigates the pain of the wounds VERSUS doing the right thing because it is the right thing.   Common symptoms:   a wife feels confused him being motivated by feedback a husband finds himself saying things like: why won’t you just see me doing this work? self righteous indignance shrouded in false humility (and isn’t that a mouthful!) ALL that said - what do we do about it? We have to decide we don’t want to live this way anymore (which means we have to acknowledge it as a problem and then also own it as our fault, not anyone else’s). Surrender the demand of the wound. When we surrender / let go - we shift from holding onto who we have been TO leaning against our identity in Jesus. Watch for yourself living out of the wound - we do this by practicing awareness and then asking ourselves (as an example): why am I so defined by if people see my progress or not? What Jason says to men when sharing with them that they can lean on their identity in Jesus (see Psalm 139): You are dearly loved and infinitely valuable. Simply by nature of the fact that the God of the universe imagined you before time. He knit you together in your mother’s womb. And counted every hair on your head. And then decided on a specific day in human history that he would breathe life into you. And by that, you can know that you are not a mistake.   We ARE going to drop an infographic into the podcast freebies folder in the next week or so to include what Jason says above about our identity in Jesus. I’ll make sure and post it on IG once it is ready and we can also send out an email if you are a subscriber to the podcast freebies alerting you that it’s ready.   We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #7. The Spring RLW Retreat is SOLD OUT for May.  Jump on the interest list here if you want to be the first to know about the next RLW Women’s Retreat. The WOHT workshop for men is SOLD OUT for April.  Jump on the interest list here if you want to be the first to know about the next WOHT workshop. Empowered Boundaries is SOLD OUT. Join the Wait List to be the first to know when the class opens again for registration. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.

On the heels of talking about some of the markers that may point toward him not living with integrity (while in recovery) - we wanted to talk about three things that show sure signs of progress: The easiest one to see with our eyes is:  humility.  This can look like fast acknowledgements and apologies for doing something wrong as well as fast acknowledgment of continued hurtful habits. Bonus:  moving from the things I AM guilty for to what I am LIKELY guilty for. Second - personal accountability to include:  radical ownership for lack of follow-through, fewer excuses, choice versus universe.  (What I heard in this was the internal versus the external locus of control - which I think is HUGE.). Jason then added movement from self-righteous indignation to honest self-reflection and curiosity. Third - pursuit of intimacy to include:  desire not dread when it comes to talking about things as well as moving toward connections versus transactions (as in - more integrated). Ultimately this all culminates in him leading which is what we as women need to see from him.  Not just that but him leading paves the way for us as wives to follow. We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #7. Applications are OPEN for the Spring 2025 Women’s Retreat but will be closing March 28th.  Would love for you to consider joining me and my team there. The WOHT workshop for men is SOLD OUT for April.  Jump on the interest list here if you want to be the first to know for the next WOHT workshop. Empowered Boundaries is SOLD OUT. Join the Wait List to be the first to know when the class opens again for registration. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.

In this episode, we are talking about signs that he may be acting out.  I have a lot of women that wonder (post discovery) - how will I know if he is acting out?  What if I miss the signs?  This episode is for you - AND - we have one bit of caution:  we are NOT trying to insert unnecessary doubt into your mind.  What we share here are potential indicators.  A collection of things that we have seen as red flags prior to confirmation of his acting out.  In addition, you want to look at these as a whole.   Okay, here we go - signs he may be acting out:   1 - A man that is only motivated by her and not motivated by himself. 2 - Insisting he will never act out again. 3 - Hiding - not engaging in conversations, evading, avoiding. 4 - Acting In increasing. 5 - Pressuring her to have sex with him. 6 - No interest in her in totality (not just disinterest in sex). 7 - Him straddling the fence / lukewarm. 8 - Lack of wholistic integrity. 9 - Talking about going back to normal. 10 - Reconnecting to your intuition - if you sense something I off, something I off.  It may not mean he has relapsed but it does mean something is off.   We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #7. See Episodes #25 and #26 - Understanding Acting In and Gaslighting and Healing from Acting In and Gaslighting for more on Acting In. Applications are OPEN for the Spring 2025 Women’s Retreat but will be closing soon.  Would love for you to consider joining me and my team there. The WOHT workshop for men is SOLD OUT for April.  Jump on the interest list here if you want to be the first to know for the next WOHT workshop. Empowered Boundaries is SOLD OUT. Join the Wait List to be the first to know when the class opens again for registration. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.

We go back to a listener question, this one from IG where a woman asked:  how do I stay with dignity when the acting out was so extensive.  I’ll be honest - as I listen to this episode, I think there is SO much more we could have shared and we didn’t.  I’m making the choice to push it out but read these show notes for some of my additional thoughts that weren’t included in the audio.   Where my mind goes initially is to work at untangling any “judgments” (and I don’t say that word in a negative way, think: opinion) or preconceived notions you have about women (or men) that are betrayed.  Jason also mentioned that it’s important to create space between where you land and where others in your life land on leaving versus staying.  Oftentimes the opinions we have about things, especially before they are apart of our lives, can influence us more than we realize when we are walking a road we never thought would be ours to walk.   Second - for myself, I felt confident in giving Jason a second chance.  This also helped me stay with dignity.  I mentioned a book by Tim Keller, Forgive, where he really opened my eyes to how important it is to pursuing reconciliation if at all possible.  Obviously, it isn’t always possible and there are even some situations where it is okay to not pursue reconciliation.  I found what Tim said in his book reassuring of what God hopes for us within relationships which is quite different than the world view of relationships where we just move right on to the next.   Both of the things above (the opinions I was holding onto that I needed to release + choosing to give Jason a second chance) were things outside the relationship that I needed to sort through to stay with dignity and peace.   That said, I pivot to biblical times and robes and Joseph and honestly, I think I get a little lost so I understand if you do, too.  We are essentially grappling with - is dignity dependent on how others treat us?  Can it be stripped from us like it was for Joseph way back in Genesis based on others choices?  Or is dignity apart of who we are as God’s children (inherent dignity)?  Could it be both?   Where we landed is here:  it’s both/ and.  The stripping of dignity happens in relationship and thus building it back up also happens in relationship.  AND - there is inherent dignity that we can confidently stand in.  Both are important!   So a couple of questions for you as you consider if you can stay with dignity (dependent on the relationship):   - do you feel you are being honored in the relationship today? - what are you not okay with and is he still doing these things? - do you hold a high bar for how others treat you? - has there been restitution?  (And while I didn’t say this on the podcast - I think restitution is huge for women in restoring dignity.)   I hope this episode, at a minimum, gets your mind turning as you consider what it looks like to stay with dignity.   We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #7.   Tim Keller’s book entitled Forgive is linked here. Registration for the next WOHT workshop for men coming April 4-6, 2025 outside Austin, TX. Click here for all the details and to register. Applications are OPEN for the Spring 2025 Women’s Retreat but will be closing soon.  Would love for you to consider joining me and my team there. Empowered Boundaries is SOLD OUT. Join the Wait List to be the first to know when the class opens again for registration. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.