#75: Where Empathy Develops

Hey Guys!  We wanted to re-release an episode from the past pertaining to navigating the holidays well.  The holidays can be really challenging - no matter what - and then throw in Family Systems (see below) + recovery and it’s a LOT.  The happy holidays can feel like the not so happy holidays. The back drop of this conversation we are having is rooted in Family Systems Theory by Murray Bowen.  Bottom line is in every family - there are unspoken agreements and roles within the family system.  For instance, you might be the clown of the family, the peace keeper, the hero… the list goes on and on.  When we merge family systems (by going to the in-laws for Thanksgiving, for instance) there will absolutely be an impact to the “system”.   We cover five key points to ponder as you consider how Family Systems impacts your holiday experience:   1. Name the role you played in your family of origin as well as who you are now relative to the earlier role you played. 2. Acknowledge your wife’s needs when navigating holiday interactions. 3. When emotions are high, use discernment on what to share and say in front of extended family, AND honor yourself and your boundaries / limits. 4. Front Loading conversations between him and her prior to the holiday gatherings. 5. Daily Downloads, initiated by him, for the two of you every day you are with extended family. 6. And Bonus:  for women - identifying anchors (activities you can do to keep yourself grounded) on the daily while with extended family.   We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us and we are excited to be with you for one more episode this year (fresh and new) and then we will be back in January for Season #7. Click here for all the details on the Worthy of Her Trust Workshop just outside San Antonio, TX from January 24-26, 2025. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast. Subscribe here to the Podcast Freebies.

We are so excited to get this season going and before we really get going in January - we wanted to release a couple of episodes this month and then come January, we will be back with all sorts of content.  Here is what we have planned thus far:   Interviews with some of the amazing folks from our team, the 90/10 rule, trusting ourselves post-betrayal, personal recovery isn’t the same thing as relational recovery, the mundanity of recovery, how do we know if he is acting out?, sure signs of progress,  the list goes on. We can’t wait to connect with you guys and we are even hoping at some point this season we will record some of the podcast recordings via video and post them on YouTube.   If you want to subscribe to the Podcast Freebies - please click here.  And don’t forget - if you have subscribed to the podcast freebies in the past - email us here and we can resend you a fresh email with all the up-to-date links.   Merry Christmas!   Shelley + Jason   Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast. Subscribe here to the Podcast Freebies.

So here we are!  The final episode of Season #6. We start with me needing to loop back to something we discussed in the last episode where Jason said he received feedback from someone saying that sometimes when Jason mentions the past / the timeline, that he is shaming me.  While I don’t think he is trying to shame me - I DO experience shame when certain parts of our story is mentioned.  I wanted to share a point of clarification that didn’t come to me until after we had stopped recording last week. I’ve wanted to talk about the shame women carry for a while and I thought this would be a good time to dig into it.  We start with a working definition of shame - because in some ways, it’s really hard to conceptualize.  What I think is important is for us to remember that shame is an indictment on our being.  It’s more than a feeling - shame becomes a sense of self. We then talk about permanent shame (thanks to Christa - one of our podcast producers - this is more rightly named chronic shame) versus acute shame.  So for those of you that read the show notes - think of this as a bonus! We switch gears and dig into the different facets of recovery and how shame bubbles up in each of these areas and slowly chips away / erodes at our sense of self as women.  We talk emotionally, financially, physically, sexually…  The conversation continues and we talk about several things including how his acting out isn’t an indictment on her being (although it FEELS that way), naming the shame, recognizing that the antidote to shame is the starting point, bringing it to community (which includes having others dismantle the shame), and ultimately working at putting ourselves back together. I was so grateful for Jason to bring up the reality that her shame necessitates compassion from him.  We discussed this before we started recording and I’m so glad Jason looped back to this - it’s so important for men to be WITH her in her shame and pain not separate from it.  It will make the biggest of differences. We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6, we will be back in the Fall for Season #7! Shelley mentions Episode #7 on Toxic Shame and Biblical Shame which might be helpful to review as we pick up the topic of shame again in this podcast episode. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   Please join my team at the first ever RLW Conference - She Heals -  in Denver THIS summer.  I would so love to meet you at this event! Jason is hosting another Recovery 2.0 workshop for men in Texas in June.  You can get all the details here. Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here.  The Spring Boundary Class is FULL.  However, we are considering adding an early summer class - you can join the wait list here. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.

In this episode - we talk about how he can hold her hostage in the recovery process.  We discuss this concept, of him holding her hostage, two different ways (or avenues or angles or well, you get the point).   The first avenue is how Jason interprets “holding her hostage” which essentially is him holding her hostage for his past wounds and holding her accountable and responsible to heal his past wounds.  This certainly was a dynamic that Jason and I dealt with while we were dating as well as while we were married.     We end up moving into a conversation about Jason going first in the recovery process and him relinquishing the expectation of me “healing” his wounds and I qualified that by saying it’s not “fully” my responsibility.  This takes us down a whole other trail where I mention Genesis 2:21 where Eve was taken from Adam’s rib - close to his heart and under his arm as well as Genesis 2:18 and the word "helper" meaning one who provides what is lacking in another.  Clearly I am grappling with this and Jason gives a helpful analogy.   The second avenue that we quite quickly look at because we were running out of time is when he holds her hostage by not being open to allowing her to express her pain and giving her a soft space to land as she grieves.  A lot packed into this episode - some tears, a lot of laughter and hopefully a lot to think about.   We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here.  The Spring Boundary Class is FULL.  However, we are considering adding an early summer class - you can join the wait list here. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.

It’s just me today, popping in to let you know we will be back next week with a fresh episode. I am sharing the quickest of life updates with you guys plus a reminder about a couple of resources that we offer. We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6. For those of you that are new here, check out Episode #1 for Our Story. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here.  Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class starting THIS month - get more information and register here. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.

As we dig into the content of this particular episode - please keep in mind that these situations are SO nuanced.  So please take what we are sharing and consider how it applies to you.  What we share will not work for everyone in every situation.   #1 - Clearly End the Affair -    Our first suggestion for regaining confidence and to be able to go back out into the community with your head high is to consider utilizing a technique from I Don’t Love You Anymore (link below).  In the book, Dr. Clarke suggests that the betrayer (with his wife on the line) calls the affair partner to verbally and officially end things.  This is something Jason and I did with several of his AP’s and it was incredibly validating and honoring for me and it also gave me confidence as I went back out into the world.   #2 - Make a Choice + Take Back Your Power -    Next, we talk about making a choice + taking back our power.  Specifically, we think it’s important for you to make a choice about who needs to know about this and who doesn’t need to know about it.  And once that choice is made - remind yourself that NONE of these people (whether they know or don’t know) have power over you.   Jason makes a great point - once those people know, we can start to relinquish control of the narrative.  We have made the decision and we can surrender the rest.  Head held high.  (And remind yourself that what others think is nothing for you to be concerned with.)  Reputation is something we have very little to no control over but our character is what we want to focus on and what we can control.  So again, surrendering our reputation and surrendering control of the narrative.   We talk briefly about shame and this is probably something we need to dive into a bit more here on the podcast - how shame impacts her (we covered shame for him in episode #7, see link below).  For now, practice an awareness of the role that shame plays and how it impacts your confidence when you go out in public.  Keep in mind the antidote to shame is intimacy so naming it and then talking about it are key.   #3 - Have a Plan -    Something that helped me years ago was to imagine this happening (a run in) and having a plan for what I would or would not say.  I also had to lean into what was going to be an incredibly awkward situation and let it be awkward (as much as we don’t want things to be awkward).   #4 - Embrace this as an Invitation for Greater Healing -    Give yourself permission to take baby steps.  Start by going to your mailbox and celebrate that win.  Go through a drive through and give yourself a ton of compassion.  Build off of those baby steps and keep stretching yourself.  And all the while, know that this, too, will cultivate character and growth in YOU.   Jason then shares two things that he wants men to know:  if you bump into the AP - RUN.  Literally.  As he said so well - you can’t leave any space for questions.  And as quickly as you leave, you quickly tell your wife.  Don’t not say anything and definitely don’t think you are protecting her by not saying anything.  Not true.  You are protecting you when you choose not to say anything.  The end.   We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6. We mention episode #54 - Fearing Attractive Women at the top of the episode.  You can listen to that here. A book we reference a ton and did again in this episode - I Don’t Love You Anymore by Dr. David Clarke.  If you haven’t read this book, and especially if you lack confidence to say to your husband - this is not okay - I highly encourage you give this book a read. For the episode on Biblical Shame - check out #7 - Toxic Shame and Biblical Shame. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here.  Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class - registration opened last week. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.

As Jason said early on in this episode - recovery work is painful.  It hurts, it’s scary and no wonder we resist it.  Jason talks about how he went from resisting the recovery work to accepting that there was work to do.  It’s in this process that we make friends with the work.  As Thomas Berry, a coach on our team, says - we go from “got to TO get to”. How we make friends with the work:  1 - When recovery calls, we answer the call. 2 - Embrace that it's going to hurt. 3 - We make time. 4 - It brings us closer to God. 5 - We learn from the work. 6 - We help others make friends with their work. What stops us from making friends with the work:  1 - Cost:  time, money, ego, our job, our status, our reputation.  Ultimately, it comes down to what we value. 2 - Fear:  of change, what we will find out about ourselves, etc. 3 - The injustice of it. 4 - Lack of guaranteed outcomes and a lot of unknowns. 5 - Bad theology Jason then left me underwhelmed when he said: The place to start is by starting.  (As you will hear, I was ready for the next step and he looked at me and said - that’s it.  Just start.)  Okay then.  So we dedicate time daily to the recovery work.  And if doing the work isn’t getting you anywhere - consider the practice of implementation (Jason asks some great questions geared toward looking at implementation and if it’s happening) as well as consider if the work you are doing is actually not the right work and needs to be revamped. We segue into a conversation about recovery plans and relapses and I really appreciate what Jason shares about recovery plans being the means to the end and not the end.  “The plan isn’t the issue, the person is the issue." We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6. Jason mentions episode #68 - What Exactly IS Good Work?  You can listen to that here. Jason mentions the Identity Masterclass - you can find out more about that here. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here.  Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class - registration opened last week. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.

Basically, I try to take over during the first five minutes of the episode as I talk about hope.  Then I pass the mic over to Jason and you will probably actually like what he says much more.  I just try to sprinkle in anecdotal comments as I can, you’re welcome. Hope is a handhold for wives in the following ways… 1 - it gives women a sense of security in the middle of what is a very chaotic experience. 2 - it can reconcile staying. 3 - it can be a reprieve from the chaos that she is experiencing with him. 4 - it can be something that can help her feel sane. 5 - it gives her a way to reconcile that all the years weren’t lost. Then I chime in with:  hope is a key ingredient that we have to have.  It doesn’t just help with a semblance of security - it IS security.  And yet…at the same time, hope can be a handcuff (holding her back) in the following ways... 1 - because everything orbits around recovery. 2 - because it betrays her intuition and better judgment. 3 - because it can cause her to question her faith. 4 - because she is signing up to stay in a revolving door of pain. 5 - because it forces her to decide between herself and the kids. 6 - because if she doesn’t hope - she will be the bad guy. 7 - because it feels like life is defined by betrayal. We then have a couple of side discussions - initially, I am honestly just trying to figure out where to place this guy (that Jason is speaking of) that betrays his wife, does all this recovery work and then says he is going to just let her go.  We make no progress in this conversation and move to... We then talk about how in mid-recovery, we in some ways had to sit in a place of figuring out how to like each other again, be roommates again, be husband and wife again, etc.  Honestly, I think both Jason and I wondered - after all that hard early work - if what we salvaged was really worth it.  The good news is:  it was a season and it did pass.  So my encouragement to each of you is to keep going. We then go BACK to this guy that is just going to let his wife go (after betrayal, discovery, disclosure, and years of work:!).  I clearly can’t let this go and ultimately have some opinions, that I will leave to the recording. And the final side conversation has to do with deferred hope and how we can get stuck in this place.  Naming it is powerful and so I hope having these words (if they apply) will help you, too! We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6. "Hope anchors the soul" is from Hebrews 6:19. “Hope deferred makes the heart sick but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life” is from Proverbs 13:12. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here.  Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class - registration opened last week. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.

Get out your thinking caps - this episode is heady and I had to rewind many many times to re-listen while I was working on these show notes.  We are talking empathy (and intimacy and conviction) today.  I believe that empathy is one of the key ingredients that will help her heart heal within the context of the couple-ship.  So developing empathy is KEY. We talk neuroanatomy:  prefrontal cortex, mirror neurons, cortical hypofrontality and modeling of empathy from others.  We also talk biblical anthropology:  the holy spirit interacting with our spirit and in that there can be a cultivation of conviction, humility, a sense of our own brokenness, love, and repentance. It’s the interplay between the two of these - the neuranatomy + the biblical anthropology that help cultivate empathy.  Both - And. Action Items for men that are struggling to find conviction or have more of a self-depricating conviction (which can lead to empathy): Write your story or revisit your written story and where the wounds are from childhood. Two book recommendations (see below) Reflect on:  what am I afraid of when coming to terms with the depths of my depravity? Be aware of your “depravity floor” - and come to terms with the fact that we can all do bad things on really good days and thus need ALL of God’s grace. We end by sharing a list of things that can help with developing empathy: Doing a formal disclosure well Modeling from other men that are empathic (accountability group, coach, therapist, etc.) Story work / root work Living with sobriety / integrity (acting out AND acting in) Gratitude Tilling the soil of your heart (for her) Ultimately - empathy and intimacy go hand in hand.  As Jason said - intimacy is the antidote, at every turn. We hope this is helpful for you guys! We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6. The two books that Jason recommended:  Abba’s Child by Brendan Manning and With by Skye Jethani Episode #6 is one you can also refer to for more on empathy - The Importance of Empathy (not Sympathy). Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here.  Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class - registration opens TODAY. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.

In this episode, we get real honest about a recent series of arguments we had about money, with the intent of sharing with you guys what engaging in conflict can look like in “late recovery”.  Not that we do conflict perfectly or recovery perfectly (as you will surely hear) but we get questions about what life looks like today - years and years post betrayal and with a lot of recovery work under our belts, collectively.  We laugh a LOT today.  And we have a really sweet marriage.  And we STILL do a lot of arguing and disagreeing. Ultimately, you are going to hear a mix of hurt, triggers, acting in, and being known / fully knowing one another in a deeper way as we unpack our recent disagreements.  Getting to a place where Jason can speak into what I can’t see (and vice-versa, at times) has been the sweetest gift and is truly what safe, trusted intimacy is all about. We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6. Wired for Intimacy is the book that I read a quote from in regards to intimacy. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.   Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here.  Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class - join that wait list here. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.