The AI industry's existential race for profits

Today I’m talking with Ronan Farrow, one of the biggest stars of investigative reporting working today. He broke the Harvey Weinstein story, among many, many others. Just last week, he and co-author Andrew Marantz published an incredible deep-dive feature in The New Yorker about OpenAI CEO Sam Altman, his trustworthiness, and the rise of OpenAI itself. So Ronan came on the show to discuss the piece, his reporting process, and why he thinks this story and the revelations it contains really matter.  Read the full interview transcript here on The Verge. Links:  Sam Altman may control our future — can he be trusted? | The New Yorker Hey ChatGPT, which one of these is the real Sam Altman? | New York Times Suspect throws molotov cocktail at Sam Altman’s home | Wired The attacks on Sam Altman are a warning for the AI world | The Verge The vibes are off at OpenAI | The Verge Why Sam Altman was booted from OpenAI | The Verge Sam Altman, unconstrained by the truth | Gary Marcus A brief history of Sam Altman's hype | MIT Tech Review Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sarah Personette is the CEO of Puck, a media company that's been around for about five years. Puck hires big star reporters who write newsletters as part of a subscription bundle. Those newsletters are often must-reads in their industries, and those reporters get equity in Puck and a share of the company's revenue. It's a place where the financial incentives of the influencer economy crash right into the rigors of traditional journalism — and as regular Decoder listeners know, I have a lot of questions about how those two things work (or don't) in the modern media landscape.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Puck buys Air Mail in deal valued at $16M | The Wrap The man yelling ‘iceberg’ on the Hollywood Titanic | New York Times Sarah Personette joins news startup Puck as CEO | Variety Are we past peak newsletter? | New York Times Two new newsletters bet they’ve got Hollywood covered | LA Times Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, let’s talk about the looming AI monetization cliff, and whether some of the biggest companies in space can become real, profitable businesses before they careen right off it. My guest today is Hayden Field, who’s our senior AI reporter here at The Verge. She’s been keeping close tabs on both Anthropic and OpenAI, and how these two companies, both slate to go public this year, tell us a whole lot about the AI industry in 2026. Links:  The vibes are off at OpenAI | The Verge Anthropic essentially bans OpenClaw from Claude | The Verge Why OpenAI killed Sora | The Verge OpenAI just bought TBPN | The Verge National poll shows voters like AI less than ICE | The Verge The spiraling cost of making AI | WSJ OpenAI’s Fidji Simo taking leave amid exec shake-up | Wired OpenAI raises another $122B at $850B valuation | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Cisco CEO Chuck Robbins. Cisco is one of those big companies that everyone has heard of but most of us don’t have to interact with very much; they’re not really a consumer brand. But without Cisco's actual routers and switches and silicon — and the software to make those things work —  there’s no internet, no cloud, and no AI. But a data center is a really unpleasant neighbor to have, and there’s robust opposition to new data center builds all over the country. So I had to start by asking what feels, strangely, like one of the most urgent questions of the moment: Should we build data centers in space? Links: Nvidia launches space computing, rocketing AI Into orbit | Nvidia Nvidia’s AI dominance expands to networking | CRN Amid rising pushback, 2025 data center cancellations surge | Heatmap Billionaires want data centers everywhere, including space | The Verge How Ciena keeps the internet online | Decoder Okta’s CEO is betting big on agent identity | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, we’re talking about the landmark social media addiction trials that just resulted in two major verdicts against Big Tech — one in California against Meta and Google, and another in New Mexico against just Meta. These are complicated cases with some huge repercussions for both how these platforms work and the very nature of speech in America. So we’ve brought on two heavy hitters: my friend Casey Newton, founder and editor of Platformer and co-host of Hard Fork, as well as Verge senior policy reporter Lauren Feiner, who’s been covering these trials since the beginning.  Links:  Meta & YouTube found negligent in social media addiction trial | The Verge Meta misled users about its products’ safety, jury decides | The Verge Meta’s legal defeat: a victory for kids, or a loss for everyone | The Verge Can you have child safety and Section 230, too? | Platformer The terrible cost of infinite scroll | The New York Times I watched grieving parents stare down Zuckerberg in court | The Verge Section 230 turns 30 as it faces its biggest tests yet | The Verge Congress considers blowing up internet law | The Verge Sen. Rob Wyden: “Why the internet still needs Section 230” | The Verge How America turned against the First Amendment | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Okta CEO Todd McKinnon. Okta is a platform that big companies use to manage security and identity across all the many apps and platforms their employees use. Most of us run into it as login management at work. SaaS companies like Okta are under a lot of pressure in the age of AI, which Todd even said on an earnings call he's "paranoid" about. But you'll also hear Todd say that for Okta specifically, there's also a world of opportunity as the very concept of a digital "identity" has to expand into things that aren't really people. Links:  CEO ‘paranoid’ as vibe coders stir SaaSpocalypse fears | The Register $300B evaporated. The SaaSpocalypse has begun | Forbes How AI assistants are moving the security goalposts | Krebs on Security What everyone’s missing about AI and development | CRN Agents run amok: Identity lessons from Moltbook’s experiment | Okta Breakup of IBM is Antitrust goal (1972) | New York Times Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, we’re talking about the major antitrust lawsuit against Ticketmaster parent company Live Nation, and what it might mean for antitrust and competition law in general now that the Trump DOJ has decided to settle its part of the case — even as several states including California, New York, and Texas carry on.  To break it all down, I’m joined by Verge senior policy reporter Lauren Feiner. Lauren’s our resident court expert, and she’s been chronicling this trial from the beginning. Links:  States’ anti-monopoly case against Live Nation continues | The Verge The Live Nation trial restarts with a ‘velvet hammer’ | The Verge Live Nation settles government antitrust suit | The Verge The Live Nation settlement has industry insiders baffled | The Verge Listen to Live Nation CEO’s alleged threats to a concert venue | The Verge The threats and bare-knuckle tactics of MAGA’s top antitrust fixer | WSJ The Trump admin just gave Live Nation the gift of a lifetime | NYT How Live Nation allegedly terrorized the concert industry | The Verge The US government is trying to break up Ticketmaster | The Verge (2024) Taylor Swift vs. Ronald Reagan: the Ticketmaster story | Decoder (2023) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Shishir Mehrotra, the CEO of Superhuman, the company formerly known as Grammarly, which is still its flagship product. Back in August, Grammarly shipped a feature called Expert Review, which allowed you to get writing suggestions from AI-cloned “experts,” and recently, reporters at The Verge and other outlets discovered that those experts included me, among many others.  No one ever asked permission to use our names this way, and a lot of reporters were outraged by this. To Shishir’s credit, he did not cancel our interview and he came on and stuck it out. This conversation got tense at times, and it’s clear we disagree about how extractive AI feels for people. There’s a lot in this one, and I’m excited to hear what you think. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links: Why I’m suing Grammarly | New York Times Grammarly will stop using identities without permission | The Verge Grammarly to keep using writer identities unless they opt out | The Verge Grammarly turned me into an AI editor and I hate it | Platformer Grammarly is using our identities without permission | The Verge Grammarly is changing its name to Superhuman | The Verge Grammarly wants to become an ‘AI productivity platform’ | The Verge Viacom v. YouTube, 2007 | Electronic Frontier Foundation Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, let’s talk about the big Paramount-Warner Bros. Discovery merger. Right now, Paramount head David Ellison is very much acting like he’s over the finish line after outbidding Netflix, which walked away after what seemed like a done deal.  Back in January, I asked Puck’s Julia Alexander to walk me through Netflix’s reasoning, and today I’m digging into Paramount’s with Rich Greenfield, a media and entertainment analyst and cofounder of research firm LightShed Partners. There’s a lot going on here, including the biggest question I’ve had throughout this entire saga: why would anyone want to buy Warner, which has basically killed every acquirer it’s had for the last quarter century? Links:  David Ellison’s plan to compete with Netflix: Paramount+HBO | Rich Greenfield The worst acquisition in history, again | Prof G Media David Zaslav gets the last laugh | THR Warner Bros. Discovery agrees to Paramount merger | The Verge Tech, TV, Movies & News: Ellisons on brink of colossal empire | NYT Pete Hegseth says ‘the sooner David Ellison’ buys CNN, ‘the better’ | NYT Warner Bros CEO to pocket $887 million from Paramount deal | Reuters Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jim Lanzone is the CEO of Yahoo. It's basically impossible to sum up Yahoo's story over the last 25 years, but the short version is that once upon a time, Yahoo paid Google to run the search box on its website, and everything immediately went sideways. Jim calls it Yahoo's original sin. But after a long series of mergers, spinouts, and a hot, weird minute as part of Verizon Yahoo is once again an independent, privately held company — and it's growing. But can Yahoo really take market share from Google? Links:  Yahoo sells Engadget to Static Media | The Verge Yahoo sells TechCrunch to Regent | The Verge Yahoo Finance launches crypto partnership with Coinbase | Yahoo Yahoo Scout looks like more web-friendly AI search | The Verge Yahoo Finance launches crypto deal with Polymarket | Yahoo Finance Yahoo resurrects Artifact inside AI-powered news app | The Verge Yahoo Mail adds more AI to simplify desktop email | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices