“Queering Prehistory” with S. K. Marley

We all know that trans people have existed throughout history, but what about before that? S.K. Marley does fascinating research on queerness and transness that predates written history and joins me to speak about what antler headdresses and wooden dolls might teach us about transness. We also discuss how transness, walking and wellbeing are entangled, which landscapes are the most nonbinary, and why ‘prehistory’ is a contested term in itself. Since we’re chatting in a beautiful park in York, this episode has some bonus bird song and squirrel mischief.  References:Out and Wild https://www.outandwild.co.uk/Our Transcapes https://skmarley.co.uk/our-transcapes/Ballachulish GoddessBraak Bog FiguresThe Wittemoor FiguresShigir Idolhttps://skmarley.co.uk/@sk____marleyOur Flag Means Death  Questions you should be able to respond to after listening:     What does ‘prehistory’ mean?     Why does S.K. speak about being trans and being in nature? What does this have to do with wellbeing?     S.K. speaks about notions of truth in contemporary trans debates and about colonial perspectives in academia. Why is their focus on British prehistory important in both of these contexts?     Why are the antler headdresses S.K. talks about a turning point in their research and their thinking about duality?     Why are bogs trans? What is the most trans or nonbinary landscape you have ever encountered?

What does sound have to do with sexuality? C. Jade MacDonald has some fascinating insights on the queerness of noise, on trans voices in hyperpop, and on sound in literature. Learn about the queer kinship created by remixes and covers in contemporary music, but also about which sound technologies are historically entangled with sexology. My favourite bit: hearing about how Gertrude Stein resonates with SOPHIE.  References:C. Jade MacDonald (2024) “The Alien Resonances and Queer Obscurities of Hyperpop’s 100 gecs” Journal of Popular Music Studies, 36.2, pp. 76-98.C. Jade MacDonald (2025) "'A Story that Wasn’t in the Words’: Music, Mothering, and Minor Figures" in The Crossroads of Music and Literature: New Essays on the Muse of Song, edited by Kelly Baron and Andrew DuBois, pp. 113-28.C. Jade MacDonald (2027) "Their Lover's Noise: Modernism's Queer Phonographies" in Routledge Companion to Literature and Sound, edited by Birgitte Stougaard Pedersen and Maria Engberg.Foucault’s The History of SexualitySaidiya HartmanJulie Beth Napolin’s "Unrecordable Sound: Media History, Technology and the Racial Unconscious" in Anna Snaith, ed. Sound and Literature (Cambridge UP, 2020)Jonathan Sterne’s The Audible Past: Cultural Origins of Sound Reproduction (Duke UP, 2003)Sara Ahmed’s Queer PhenomenologyAlthusserGertrude SteinSOPHIE100 gecs’ “money machine”Wendy CarlosDorian ElectraCharli xcxA.G. CookKodwo Eshun’s More Brilliant Than The Sun: Adventures in Sonic Fiction (Quartet Books, 1998)alien sonoritiesAlice B. ToklasEdmund HusserlAlexander G. Weheliye’s Phonographies: Grooves in Sonic Afro-Modernity (Duke UP, 2005) Grace E. Lavery’s Pleasure and Efficacy: Of Pen Names, Cover Versions, and Other Trans Techniques (Princeton UP, 2023)Perverse sincerity Simon & GarfunkelShakiraGorillaz “Feel Good Inc”@[email protected] Josie Clements’ Persona (Little Puss Press, 2026)  Questions you should be able to respond to after listening:     Why might noise be queer?     How is voice usually perceived in music? What might the distortion and non-human quality that hyperpop can lend voices signify in relation to transness?     What does Jade say about remixes and covers? Do you see them as queer kinship?     Why does Jade speak about 100 gecs? What is this example illustrating?     Please listen to at least one musician that you heard about on this episode and think about whether you can hear any ‘alien resonances’.

Listen, this episode is as delightful as it sounds. Audiophile Stacey Copeland tells me all about feminist soundwork, radical radio, and lesbian podcasts – all of which Stacey writes about in the excellent new book Lavender Sounds. Tune in for the sonic histories, stay for the moment when Stacey illustrating the crafted intimacy of podcasts will make you a little weak in the knees. If you are interested in the politics and potential of audio media, you will absolutely love this episode.   References: Stacey Copeland’s Lavender Sounds: From Lesbian Radio to Queer Feminist Soundwork (University of Michigan Press, 2026)Amplify NetworkCopeland, Stacey "Sustaining queer joy and potentiality: Through independent production with homoground music podcast." Journal of popular music studies 35.4 (2023): 111-124.Betty FriedanLavender MenaceMichele HilmesBluestockings Cooperativebell hooksHannah McGregorThe Lesbian Show Fonds are held at the City of Vancouver Archives https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/the-lesbian-showKaitlin PrestJennifer Lynn Stoever’s The Sonic Color Line (NYU Press, 2016)Silva Tenenbein’s original interview with Stacey aired on FemRadio in 2018 https://soundcloud.com/scopeatryerson/the-lesbian-showDykes on Mykes is back on the airwaves at CKUT Montreal https://ckut.ca/playlists/DMThe ArQuives - https://arquives.ca/‘Temporal drag’ is a reference from Elizabeth Freeman’s Time Binds: Queer Temporalities, Queer Histories (Duke University Press, 2010)The Heart’s “Lesbian Separatism is Inevitable” - https://www.theheartradio.org/solos/2020/1/15/lesbian-separatism-is-inevitableNK (Nicole Kelly)Phoebe Unterstaceycopeland.comForbidden Love: The Unashamed Stories of Lesbian Lives - https://www.nfb.ca/film/forbidden_love/Studio D – The women’s film studio founded in 1974 under the NFB (National Film Board of Canada)   Questions you should be able to respond to after listening:     How does Stacey define lavender sounds and why is the colour lavender connected to queerness, historically and politically?     What is soundwork? What is feminist soundwork?     Why is audibility important to consider, not just visibility?     What does Stacey mean when speaking about the everydayness of soundwork?     Why does radio hold radical potential?     How does sound relate to time in Stacey’s work?

Meet Ayse, founder of Queer Girls Book Club, defender of the heated debate, and dyke of the people. In this live recording from the amazing Out and Wild festival, Ayse tells me about why running a queer book club is not just about putting LGBTQIA+ titles on your reading list, all the work she is doing to nurture her bookish community, and a why disagreeing is a good skill to have. To quote Joelle Taylor: That’s community, babe!  References Out and Wildhttps://www.outandwild.co.uk/HousmansJoelle Taylor’s The Night AlphabetEmily WithamGrace FlahivePolly ShuteGillian AndersonAlison Bechdel’s Fun Home and SpentGay on WyeCarol Ann Duffy’s Rapture and “Forest”Jackie KayLamya H’s Hijab Butch BluesZoë Berryman  Questions you should be able to respond to after listening:     Why did Ayse start Queer Girls Book Club? Have you ever thought about starting a group? What was/would have been your motivation?     What does Ayse say about contributing to community? How do you feel about this?     We speak about literature as being a protected space to practice debate and disagreement. Have you ever experienced this? Which example does Ayse give?     How does Ayse speak about marginalised voices in the publishing industry? What can we as readers do to promote change?     Are you coming to our next live recording?  

In the sapphic launderette play Spin Cycle, the washers are loaded and so are the questions. Penned by Zofia Zerphy, Spin Cycle is an absurdist exploration of intense connections, queer memory and lesbian storytelling. In this summer special, I am joined by Zofia and Rhiannon Bell, who play the main characters and speak to me about crafting a play in queer community, why queer narratives can operate in different realms of sense and meaning making, and why exploring flawed characters is vital to queer and trans representation.  References:Berserk TheatreThe L WordEternal Sunshine of the Spotless MindMitski’s “Washing Machine Heart”Act On TapBethan RoseEdinburgh Dyke BarRos Watt’s Trans People Are AwfulRadclyffe Hall’s The Well of LonelinessJoe Carstairs  Questions you should be able to respond to after listening:     Zofia and Rhi speak about the different responses queer and non-queer audience members had to the play’s absurdist elements. What do they say about queer narratives making sense and what is your take?     Which trope(s) of sapphic storytelling do we mention in the episode?     We speak about Spin Cycle using memory and forgetting in queer ways. What could queer memory mean? What does it mean to you?     Rhi highlights the importance of showing flawed trans and nonbinary characters on stage. How do you feel about this? Can you think of another example of a flawed LGBTQIA+ character in literature or theatre?     Have you ever seen yourself represented on stage? What was that like?

Who coined the term cis and why are some people calling it a slur? Amazing return guest Perry Zurn joins me to discuss what the concept of cis does, why it’s helpful to look at its origins and etymology and where it might oversimplify the project of gender. Not one to be missed!  References:Perry Zurn’s Cisgender: Disorienting a Category (Duke UP, 2026)Perry Zurn’s How We Make Each Other: Trans Life at the Edge of the University (Duke UP, 2024)John HollisterRiva Lehrer’s Golem GirlMarquis Bey’s Cistem Failure: Essays on Blackness and Cisgender (Duke UP, 2022)Stephanie Clare’s Nonbinary: A Feminist Autotheory (Cambridge UP, 2023)Jonathan Ned Katz’s The Invention of Heterosexuality (1995)  Questions you should be able to respond to after listening:     What does cis mean?     Which term is older: cis or trans? When does the term cis emerge?     Which community coined the term cisgender and why?     What is Perry saying about simplified notions of cis and which example does he give?     How does Perry put disability and race in dialogue with cisness and transness?

From popstars to rugby players, this episode has all the Welsh queer icons you could want. Emily Garside teaches me about H from Steps, Russel T. Davies, the Ladies of Llangollen and so many other fascinating LGBTQIA+ people from Wales. We talk about whether wondering if you’re queer enough is similar to wondering if you’re Welsh enough and how the prejudice against ‘sounding gay’ relates to sounding Welsh.  Books by Emily Garside:Rainbow Wales: Queer Icons Past and Present (Calon, May 2026)Out of the Box: Queer TV through the Decades (Manchester University Press, January 2027)Gay Aliens and Queer Folks: How Russell T Davies Changed TV (Calon, 2023)Seasons of Love: Why Rent Matters (Applause)You Are My Happy Ending: Schitt’s Creek and the Legacy of Queer TV (Applause)Angels in America at the British National Theatre (McFarland)Love that Journey for me: The Queer Revolution of Schitt’s Creek (404 Ink)  Other References:Russel T DaviesLadies of LlangollenEdward II.Piers GavestonStepsIan ‘H’ WatkinsElliot PageLuke EvansEisteddfodCymruMarquess of AngleseyViscount TredegarNorena ShoplandJan Morris’ ConundrumIvor NovelloColin JacksonConnie OrffAlun SaundersNatha WyburnQueer As FolkIt’s A SinLisa PowerSection 28@emigarside (IG)https://thenerdynotebook.substack.com/https://emilygarside.com/Surrey Rainbow Choir https://www.rainbowchoir.co.uk/    Questions you should be able to respond to after listening:     Is there such a thing as a cohesive Welsh queer identity? What are Emily’s thoughts on this and what is her approach?     Emily speaks about parallels between attitudes towards Welsh and queer identities. Which one does she discuss? Is there a facet of your identity that feels similar yet different from your queerness?     What is an eisteddfod? Please look it up if you’re not familiar because we forgot to explain the term in the episode.     Have you ever askes yourself whether you are queer or trans enough? How do we speak about this question in this episode?     Who was your favourite person to learn about in the episode?

If you have not read A Black Queer History of the United States yet, you are so lucky to have this fantastic book in your future! And lucky for me that this is also an excellent opportunity to speak to two dream guests: C. Riley Snorton and Darius Bost speak about gender trouble in the Black queer archives, how Black and queer histories need to be thought together and why grounding oneself in community is part of what it means to survive.  References:C. Riley Snorton and Darius Bost’s A Black Queer History of the United States (2026)C. Riley Snorton’s Nobody is Supposed to Know: Black Sexuality on the Down Low (U of Minnesota Press, 2014)C. Riley Snorton’s Black on Both Sides: A Racial History of Trans Identity (U of Minnesota Press, 2017)Darius Bost’s Evidence of Being: The Black Gay Cultural Renaissance and the Politics of Violence (U of Chicago Press, 2019)Cathy J. Cohen “Deviance as Resistance: A New Research Agenda for the Study of Black Politics” (2014)William Cathay/Cathay WilliamsPhil BlackThe Funmakers BallCheryl Dunye’s The Watermelon WomanErica R. EdwardsMarsha P. JohnsonStreet Transvestite Action Revolutionaries (STAR)Combahee River CollectiveNational Black Justice Coalition“Black Lesbian Thought” with Briona Simone [email protected]@uic.edu@windycitybqSaul Williams and Anisia Uzeyman’s Neptune FrostJellicle BallEssex Hemphill’s Ceremonies: Prose and Poetry      Questions you should be able to respond to after listening:     Why do Black and queer history need to be thought of together? How are they sometimes separated?     Darius speaks about the book having two parts. What is each about?     Riley speaks about gender and sexual deviance as forms of survival or escape. What does this mean? Can you name an example?     What does Darius say about the relationship between civil rights ideology and non-normative gender?     Why is it important to speak about collectives as well as individuals when engaging with Black queer history?

Who designs the rules of inclusion? Kevin Guyan has given a lot of thought to this question in his excellent book Rainbow Trap, which thinks through the many categories that fall under the rainbow umbrella and how they might include, exclude, limit, and even harm the people they are supposed to benefit. Listen now to learn more about why our future might hold fewer boxes to tick and how we can break boundaries to get there.  References: Kevin Guyan’s Rainbow Trap: Queer Lives, Classifications and the Dangers of Inclusion (2025)Kevin Guyan’s Queer Data: Using Gender, Sex and Sexuality Data for Action (2022)https://kevinguyan.com/ @kevin.guyan on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/kevin.guyan/)kguyan on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/kguyan/)Gender Recognition Reform BillGender Recognition ActKit HeyamGeoffrey Bowker and Susan Leigh Star – in particular, Sorting Things Out: Classification and Its Consequences (1999)Ian HackingLooping effectSara Ahmed – in particular, On Being Included: Racism and Diversity in Institutional Life (2012)A Black Queer History of the United States (2026, C. Riley Snorton and Darius Bost)Gender and Sexuality Data Lab (https://gensexdatalab.com/)Queer Data ShowcaseMystika GlamoorDean Spade’s Normal Life: Administrative Violence, Critical Trans Politics, and the Limits of Law (2011)  Questions you should be able to respond to after listening:     What is a rainbow trap? Have you ever been trapped in one?     Kevin speaks about ‘the dark sides of being included’. What does this mean? Have you experienced this form of categorisation?     What does Kevin think about in the chapter on health and fitness?     How are labels multidirectional? What are ‘looping effects’ in this context?     What is a box breaker? Are you one?

We’re all still here, still ready to love, and to build community with trans books! In this extremely fun conversation, Cat Fitzpatrick talks about her poetry, her work with Little Puss Press, and a person called Crabstick. If you are wondering how all these things can go together and if you want to hear a fantastic poet speak about her favourite lyric forms as well as her favourite forms of activism, this episode is for you.  References:Cat Fitzpatrick’s The Dinner Party (Seven Stories Press, 2026)Little Puss PressCat Fitzpatrick’s The Call-OutCat Fitzpatrick’s GlamourpussMeanwhile, Elsewhere (edited by Cat Fitzpatrick and Casey Plett) https://www.catfitzpatrick.net/@intermittentcatChiara PellegriniThe Earl of Rochester“A Letter from Artemesia in the Town to Chloe in the Country”Richard BarnfieldUxoriousVirgilAphra BehnGwen Aube’s Missed Connections with Tall GirlsViolet Allen’s Plastic, Prism, VoidSybil Lamb’s I’ve Got a Time BombJeanne Thornton’s A/S/LShola von Reinhold’s LoteImogen Binnie’s NevadaSophia Dahlin’s Glove MoneyFuturepoemsJoss Barton's Goodbye to a Dream Believed   Questions you should be able to respond to after listening:     Cat and I speak about several poetic forms in this episode. What is Cat’s take on poetic form and the patriarchy? What is yours?     Which kinds of love do we speak about in the episode?     Cat describes part of her writing process as “I hold on to my feelings until I can make use of them.” Can you relate to this?     What does Cat mean when she talks about books as time capsules?     How can literature help us build community and engage with trans rights?