Erasing Jewish History: Why What Happened in Ireland Should Alarm All Jews

When Dublin officials moved to strip the name of Chaim Herzog—Israel's Irish-born sixth president—from a community park, it wasn't just a local dispute. It was an act of erasure. In this emotional episode, Dr. Alexandra Herzog, AJC's Director of the William Petschek Global Jewish Communities Department, explains why this attempt to rewrite history should alarm not only Jews, but all citizens of goodwill. As anti-Zionist fervor increasingly targets Jewish identity across the West, the push to remove a Jewish name from a park beside Ireland's only Jewish school sends a chilling message: Jewish heritage has now become a political battleground. Alexandra shares personal memories of her grandfather and illustrates why this fight isn't about a plaque in Ireland—it's about halting the slide from criticism of Israel into the deletion of Jewish memory. Tune in to understand why defending this history is essential to protecting Jewish dignity everywhere. Key Resources: AJC Welcomes Dublin City Council's Decision to Shelve Renaming of Herzog Park Letter in the Irish Times: Renaming Herzog Park in Dublin Would Be An Act of Erasure Against Ireland's Jews Listen: Will Ireland Finally Stop Paying Lip Service When it Comes to Combating Antisemitism? AJC Directly Addresses Antisemitism and Vilification of Israel in Ireland with the Prime Minister Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Read the full transcript: https://www.ajc.org/news/podcast/erasing-jewish-history-why-what-happened-in-ireland-should-alarm-all-jews Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman:     Members of the City Council of Dublin, Ireland have withdrawn a proposal to rename a park that since 1995 has honored former Israeli President Chaim Herzog. The park, located near Dublin's only Jewish school, is named after Herzog, Israel's sixth president, who was born in Belfast.  Here to talk about the now withdrawn proposal is Alexandra Herzog, AJC's Director of the William Petschek Global Jewish Communities Department, and Chaim Herzog's granddaughter. Alexandra, welcome to People of the Pod. Alexandra Herzog:     Thank you so much for having me, Manya. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So you have joined us before, but on a different podcast, The Forgotten Exodus, which is our narrative series about Jews from the Middle East and North Africa. You were joining us to talk about your maternal grandfather, Nessim Gaon, the longtime president of the World Sephardi Federation. He came to Israel from Sudan. But this time, we're talking about your paternal grandfather, Chaim Herzog. How did someone born in Ireland later become President of Israel? Alexandra Herzog:     Yes, that's a great question. Manya, so my grandfather, Chaim Herzog, was, as you said, born in Belfast. He grew up in Dublin in a very proudly Jewish home. His father actually was a Rabbi Isaac Halevi Herzog, and he served as the Rabbi of Belfast before becoming the chief rabbi of Ireland. So he moved from Belfast to Dublin in 1919. He was affectionately known as the Sinn Féin rabbi, and he was highly respected and close to many of the leaders of the Irish independence movement. So my grandfather really grew up in a house that was deeply steeped in Jewish learning, in Irish patriotism, and he had a very strong sense of moral responsibility.  And as a young man, he had to leave Ireland to study, and he later enlisted in the British Army during World War Two, he fought the Nazis as an intelligence officer. He was one of the first soldiers actually to enter the concentration camp of Bergen Belsen, and he interrogated senior Nazi officials. Now, after the war, he moved to what would become the State of Israel, and he helped build the very young country, almost from its founding, in different positions.  And you know, then later, he became Israel's ambassador to the UN and a member of the Israeli parliament, the Knesset. And by the time he was elected as Israel's sixth president in 1983 he was widely seen really, as a statesman who combined Irish warmth and some storytelling with a very deep sense of Jewish history and Jewish responsibility.  He never stopped describing himself, actually, as an Irish born man. and he often spoke about how Ireland really shaped his worldview, and his commitment to freedom and to democracy. Manya Brachear Pashman:     And you mentioned that he was the ambassador to the United Nations. He was, in fact, Ambassador when the resolution Zionism is Racism was, was part of the conversation. Alexandra Herzog:     That's right. Yes, one of the two UN resolutions ever to be withdrawn and canceled, very important one. That's right.  Manya Brachear Pashman:     In fact, if I'm not mistaken, he tore it in half. Alexandra Herzog:     He did. He tore it in half saying that this was nothing but a piece of paper, and explained how, you know, we could not equate Zionism to racism in any sort of way. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So were those the reasons why, in 1995, the Dublin City Council decided to name the park after your grandfather? Or were there other reasons? Yeah. Alexandra Herzog:     I mean, I think that, you know, I think it was a gesture, really, of recognition, of pride. I mean, Dublin was basically honoring an Irish man, you know, one of its own, an Irish born Jew who had gone to become, it's true, a global statesman, the President of Israel, but who really never stopped speaking about his Irish roots. And I think that that was really a source of pride for him, but also for Ireland in general, for many, many years.  And as you said, you know, Herzog Park really sits in a very historically Jewish neighborhood. It's near, actually, where my family lived, where my grandfather grew up, and it's right next to the country's only Jewish school. So naming a park for my grandfather was, I think, really a way of acknowledging this deep Irish Jewish history, and the fact that it is part of Irish history. So I think that my family story is very much woven into the country's broader story of independence, of democracy and of moral courage, really. Manya Brachear Pashman:     Yet 30 years later, there has been an attempt to rename that park and strip that name from the park. Why? What happened in 30 years? Alexandra Herzog:     It's a great question. I think that in the past three decades, you know, we've really seen the Israeli Palestinian conflict become a proxy battlefield for broader political debates in Europe, but also really everywhere around the world. In Ireland, the criticism of Israeli policies, of the Israeli government, has increasingly blurred into hostility towards Israel as a whole, and at times even towards Israelis and towards Jews.  What is really striking about this proposal is that it doesn't target a policy or even a government decision within Ireland. It targets a piece of Jewish and Irish history. So instead of creating a new space or a memorial, the proposal really sought to erase an existing Jewish name. And I think that that shift from debate to erasure, because that's really what we're talking about, is what worries me the most. It reflects really a climate in which maybe some feel that expressing solidarity with Palestinians require overriding an important part of Jewish history and Jewish presence. Jewish memory, really.  So one of their proposals is actually to rename it Free Palestine park, or to rename it after, you know, a Palestinian child. Obviously from a personal perspective, it's extremely problematic to remove a Jewish name to replace it by another group. We don't need to do that. We can recognize the realities and the lived experiences of both groups without having to erase one over another. Manya Brachear Pashman:     I should note that last year, Israel recalled its ambassador, and in December, closed its embassy in Dublin, accusing the Irish government of extreme anti-Israel policies, antisemitic rhetoric and double standards. So really, taking the debate to extremes, and that the, in fact, the tiny Jewish community that is still there about–would you say about 3000 people in the Irish Jewish community? Alexandra Herzog:    That's right. Manya Brachear Pashman:    They're facing antisemitism as well. We actually interviewed our colleague, AJC's Director of International Jewish Affairs, Rabbi Andrew Baker, at the time, just about a year ago, because he also serves as the Personal Representative on Combating Antisemitism and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.  So he had just met with the Irish Prime Minister whose administration had recently adopted the international Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's Working Definition of Antisemitism. So I'm curious now with this attempt to rename the park and do something so harsh to erase Jewish history, has that definition been implemented, or has it failed to be implemented? Alexandra Herzog:     Yeah, I think that the adoption of the IHRA working definition of antisemitism by the Irish government was really an important and a very welcome step. On paper, you know, it gives officials and institutions, law enforcement, a shared framework, really, for recognizing antisemitism, including when it appears in the guise of anti-Israel rhetoric. I think that the challenge, really, as always, is implementation. So from what I hear in conversations with the Irish Jewish community, and you know, Jewish community leaders and colleagues who follow these issues very closely, there's still a significant gap between the formal adoption of the IHRA and the day to day practice. Whether it's in, you know, political discourse or in education, or even how incidents are simply discussed or understood. And I think that the current controversy here that we're talking about with Herzog Park is a perfect example of that. If you apply the IHRA seriously, then you see very quickly how targeting a specifically Jewish symbol in a Jewish neighborhood, in order to make a political point about Israel, actually crosses the line into antisemitism. So I think that if we could really work on the implementation much more, that would be extremely positive. Manya Brachear Pashman:     And in fact, the prime minister himself actually condemned the attempt by the Dublin City Council to rename the park, correct, he encouraged the withdrawal of this proposal? Alexandra Herzog:     That's correct. Both the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister actually issued statements saying that this proposal should not have come  to even be considered, and that they should be withdrawn. And I'm very grateful for their leadership in that.  And I think that it's important, though, to underline the fact that it is not, you know, just a global form of antisemitism, but that it is really an expressed form of antisemitism on the ground, really erasing Jewish history and blaming an entire Jewish population for what is happening miles and miles away is antisemitism. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So what are you hearing from the tiny Jewish community there? Are you in touch with people there? Do you still have relatives who live in Ireland? Alexandra Herzog:     I sadly don't have relatives there anymore, but I am in contact with the Jewish community. And I think that, you know, it's a community that really has a lot of pride in their Jewish history and their Irish history and in their Irish roots. I think there is a feeling, what I'm hearing from them, that there is a bit of a mix of fatigue also, and of anxiety. And you know this, we're talking, as we said before, about a very small community, about 3000 Jews. It's a close knit community that has contributed far beyond its size to Irish society.  They love Ireland, and they feel deeply Irish, but in the past years, and especially since October 7, they have felt increasingly targeted, and they often have felt exposed, misunderstood. So I think that incidents like the proposed renaming of the park lands particularly hard because it's not abstract. It's a park that's in their neighborhood, that's next to their children's school, and bearing the name of someone who for them symbolizes their connection to Ireland. So to see this name singled out really sends a chilling message that, you know, Jewish presence, Jewish history are negotiable. Manya Brachear Pashman:     You know, we talked about similar issues when we talked about your maternal grandfather in Sudan and the erasure of Jewish history across the Middle East and North Africa in these countries where Jews fled. Would you say that there are parallels here? Or is that, is that an unfair statement? Is that taking it too far? Alexandra Herzog:     I mean, I think that, in general, the notion of commemoration, the notion of really talking about one's history is, is a problematic one, when those commemorations, or those celebrations of memory, of Jewish memory and Jewish impact, are being erased because of the connection with Israel. And when people use the platform to accuse Israel of genocide, they distort history. They weaponize really Jewish suffering.  I think that there is something to be said there. And, you know, it's the same idea as, you know, removing a Jewish name from a park in order to make that political point about Israel. I think that it is something that we're seeing way too much. It is a very slippery slope, and it's something that we should be 100% avoiding. Because Jewish memory, whether it be, you know, like a commemoration about like, what happened to Jews from our fleeing Arab lands, what happened during the Holocaust, anything that has to do with Jewish memory, it needs to be preserved.  It needs to be honored on its own terms. It cannot be repurposed or overwritten to serve certain political narratives or even certain political accusations that like the ones that we're hearing right now, to me, that is very deeply troubling, and it's something that Jewish communities worldwide, I think, are experiencing more and more unfortunately. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So I wanted to ask you, your grandfather passed away in 1997. This park was named two years earlier. Was he present for that dedication? Alexandra Herzog:     Yeah, unfortunately, he wasn't able to attend the inauguration. He was still alive, that's true when the park was named, and he was deeply touched by the gesture. I think that for him, it really symbolized a bit of a full circle somehow. You know, the Irish boy who became President of Israel, who's being honored in the neighborhood where his story really began. I think that there was something very powerful and beautiful about it. For the 100th anniversary of my grandfather's birth in 2018 the family actually went to the park and got the dedication plaque up. And you know, that was a very meaningful event. Manya Brachear Pashman:    It must be heartbreaking for you to know that they want to tear that plaque down now. Alexandra Herzog:     I know how proud my grandfather was of his Irish roots. I know the work that my great-grandfather did in Ireland for Irish independence. And I think that it's completely uncalled for right now to rewrite history and to pretend that our family's story has no place in this country that meant so much for two generations of my family, and really even as a statement for Israel. My grandfather always, you know, talked about Ireland, and really always had this pride. So it touches very deeply.  I think it really gives the very wrong message to young Jews and children who are growing up in a country where they are such a minority, I think that we have to put things in perspective a little bit. And, you know, I imagine being a kid and seeing like the name of somebody who maybe symbolizes something for you, their name being removed.It sends a message that really should not be out there in any kind of way and is not justified. Manya Brachear Pashman:     You knew your grandfather. Did he share stories about his childhood, and was there anything as you were standing in that park that reflected those stories? Alexandra Herzog:     Yeah, I had the very big privilege to know my grandfather very well, to spend a lot of time with him. I'm his first grandchild, so we spent a lot of time together. We shared a deep passion together for history, for literature, for politics, but also for nature. For me, before any before being a public figure, he really was my grandfather, my Saba. Someone who was warm, who was funny, who was very present as a grandfather, who would take me to the garden and show me all of his fruit trees that he was so very proud. And I had this feeling, I mean, the park, this park is very small. It's a tiny, you know, it's a tiny park, but somehow is so meaningful to him. And I know that he loved living in that neighborhood. It was very hard for him to leave Ireland and, you know, go to what was then Palestine. So it's something that I really felt very strongly when I was there, and that I think that our family thinks about often. Manya Brachear Pashman:     Well, Alexandra, I am so glad that the Dublin City Council tabled this proposal for the time being. And I appreciate you sharing some memories about your grandfather and putting this in perspective for our listeners. Alexandra Herzog:     Thank you very much. It was an honor. Manya Brachear Pashman: You can hear the story of Alexandra Herzog's maternal grandfather Nissim Gaon and the challenges he and his family faced in Sudan in the first season of our award-winning series The Forgotten Exodus. In 12 episodes, we also share the erased or often-forgotten stories of Jewish families who left or were driven from their homes in the Middle East and North Africa. And don't forget to listen to our most recent series about reconciliation in the region: Architects of Peace: The Abraham Accords Story.   

Five years after the signing of the Abraham Accords, the Middle East looks very different—defined by both extraordinary cooperation and unprecedented challenges. In this episode, we unpack how Israel's defensive war on seven fronts affected regional partnerships, why Abraham Accords nations have stood by the Jewish state, and what expanded normalization could look like as countries like Saudi Arabia and others weigh making such monumental decisions.   We also explore the growing importance of humanitarian coordination, people-to-people diplomacy, and the critical role AJC is playing in supporting deeper regional collaboration. From shifting narratives to new economic and security opportunities, we chart what the next five years could mean for peace, stability, and integration across the region. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. This episode is up-to-date as of November 25, 2025. Read the transcript: Building What's Next | Architects of Peace - Episode 6 | AJC Resources: AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace - Tune in weekly for new episodes. The Abraham Accords, Explained AJC.org/CNME - Find more from AJC's Center for a New Middle East Listen – AJC Podcasts: The Forgotten Exodus  People of the Pod Follow Architects of Peace on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript: ANNE DREAZEN: One thing that I have learned from my many years at the Department of Defense is that military instruments of power are not sufficient to really build longlasting peace and stability.  The importance of trade, of economic development, of people-to-people ties, is so essential to what we think of as an enduring or a lasting peace. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: In September 2020, the world saw what had been years–decades–in the making. Landmark peace agreements dubbed the Abraham Accords, normalizing relations between Israel and two Arabian Gulf States, the United Arab Emirates and the Kingdom of Bahrain.  Later, in December, they were joined by the Kingdom of Morocco. Five years later, AJC is pulling back the curtain to meet key individuals who built the trust that led to these breakthroughs and build bonds that would last. Introducing: the Architects of Peace. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: It has been five years since Israel, the United Arab Emirates, and Bahrain signed the Abraham Accords on the South Lawn of the White House. In those five years, Russia invaded Ukraine, sparking a massive refugee crisis. The U.S. elected one president then re-elected his predecessor who had ushered in the Abraham Accords in the first place.  And amid news that Saudi Arabia might be next to join the Accords, the Hamas terror group breached the border between Israel and Gaza, murdered more than 1,200 people and kidnapped 251 more. Israel suddenly found itself fighting an existential war against Iran and its terror proxies on multiple fronts – Gaza, Lebanon, the West Bank, Yemen, Syria, Iraq, and Iran itself. At the same time, Israel also fought a worldwide war of public opinion – as Hamas elevated the death toll in Gaza by using Palestinian civilians as human shields and activists waged a war of disinformation on social media that turned international public perception against the Jewish state. Through it all, the Abraham Accords held. ALI RASHID AL NUAIMI: There are those who work hard to undermine what we are doing. And this is where many question: 'How come the UAE is still part of the Abraham Accords?'  MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: Dr. Ali Rashid Al Nuaimi is a leading parliamentarian and educator in the United Arab Emirates. He has served as the Chancellor of the United Arab Emirates University and the Chairman of the Abu Dhabi Department of Education and Knowledge. He currently serves as the Chairman of the International Steering Board of Hedayah, The International Center of Excellence for Countering Extremism and Violent Extremism. The center is based in Abu Dhabi.  He was one of the first to go on Israeli and Arab media to talk to the general public about the Abraham Accords and was known for correcting news anchors and other interview subjects, that the UAE had not simply agreed to live in peace with the Jewish state. It had agreed to actively engage with the Israeli people. ALI RASHID AL NUAIMI: We saw the importance of engaging with both sides. We saw the importance of talking to the Israeli general public. We saw the importance of dialogue with the government in Israel, the Knesset, the NGO, the academician, businessman. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: That engagement started almost immediately with flights back and forth, musical collaborations, culinary exchanges, academic partnerships, business arrangements–much of which came to a halt on October 7, 2023. But that simply meant the nature of the engagement changed. Since the start of the Israel-Hamas War, the UAE has provided extensive humanitarian aid to Gaza, delivering more than 100,000 tons of food, medical supplies, tents, and clothing, by land, air and sea—about 46% of the total assistance that entered Gaza. It established six desalination plants with a combined capacity of two million gallons per day.  And, in addition to operating field and floating hospitals that treated 73,000 patients, the UAE also provided five ambulances, facilitated a polio vaccination campaign, and evacuated 2,785 patients for treatment in the UAE. From Dr. Al-Nuami's point of view, the Abraham Accords made all of that humanitarian aid possible. ALI RASHID AL NUAIMI: This is why we were able to have these hospitals in Gaza, we were able to do these water solutions for the Palestinians, and we did so many things because there is a trust between us and the Israelis. That they allowed us to go and save the Palestinian people in Gaza.  So there were so many challenges, but because we have the right leadership, who have the courage to make the right decision, who believe in the Abraham Accords principles, the vision, and who's working hard to transform the region. Where every everyone will enjoy security, stability, and prosperity without, you know, excluding anyone. Why the UAE didn't pull out of the Abraham Accords? My answer is this. It's not with the government, our engagement. The government will be there for two, three, four years, and they will change.  Our Abraham Accords is with Israel as a nation, with the people, who will stay. Who are, we believe their root is here, and there is a history and there is a future that we have to share together. And this is where we have to work on what I call people to people diplomacy. This is sustainable peace. This is where you really build the bridges of trust, respect, partnership, and a shared responsibility about the whole region. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: On October 9, two years and two days after the start of the war between Israel and Hamas, the White House announced a ceasefire would take effect, the first step in a 20-point peace plan proposed for the region. Four days later, President Donald Trump joined the presidents of Egypt and Turkey, and the Emir of Qatar to announce a multilateral agreement to work toward a comprehensive and durable peace in Gaza. Since then, all but the remains of three hostages have been returned home, including Lt. Hadar Goldin, whose remains had been held since 2014, ending the longest hostage ordeal in Israel's history. Finally, the prospect of peace and progress seems to be re-emerging. But what is next for the Abraham Accords? Will they continue to hold and once again offer the possibilities that were promised on the White House Lawn in September 2020? Will they expand? And which countries will be next to sign on to the historic pact, setting aside decades of rejection to finally formalize full diplomatic relations with the Jewish state? The opportunities seem endless, just as they did in September 2020 when the Abraham Accords expanded the scope of what was suddenly possible in government, trade, and so much more.  ANNE DREAZEN: The Abraham Accords really opened up lots of opportunities for us in the Department of Defense to really expand cooperation between Israel and its partners in the security sphere.  MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN:  Anne Dreazen spent the last 18 years as a civil servant in the U.S. Department of Defense. For most of that time, she worked on Middle East national security and defense policy, focusing on Iran, Iraq and Lebanon. And most recently serving as the principal director for Middle East policy, the senior civil service job overseeing the entire Middle East office. She was working at the Pentagon when the Abraham Accords were signed under the first Trump administration and immediately saw a shift in the region. ANNE DREAZEN: So, one thing that we saw at the very end of the first Trump administration, and it was made possible in part because of the success of the Abraham Accords, was the decision to move Israel from U.S. European Command into U.S. Central Command. And for many decades, it had been thought that that wouldn't be feasible because you wouldn't have any Middle East countries in CENTCOM that would really be willing to engage with Israel, even in very discreet minimal channels.  But after the Abraham Accords, I think that led us policymakers and military leaders to sort of rethink that proposition, and it became very clear that, it would be better to increase cooperation between Israel and the other Gulf partners, because in many cases, they have similar security interests, specifically concerns about Iran and Iranian proxies and Iranian malign activity throughout the region. And so I think the Abraham Accords was one item that sort of laid the groundwork and really enabled and encouraged us to think creatively about ways through which we could, in the security and defense sphere, improve cooperation between Israel and other partners in the region. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: But sustaining peace in the region is more than a matter of maintaining security. Making sure young people can fulfill their dreams, make a contribution, build relationships and friendships across borders, and transcend religion and ideologies – even those in the security sphere know those are the necessary ingredients for peace and prosperity across the region.  Despite the efforts of Hamas and other Iran-backed terror proxies to derail the Abraham Accords, the U.S., Arab, and Israeli leaders had continued to pursue plans for an Israeli-Saudi peace agreement and to explore a new security architecture to fight common threats. This spirit of optimism and determination led AJC to launch the Center for a New Middle East in June 2024. In October, Anne joined AJC to lead that initiative. ANNE DREAZEN: One thing that I have learned from my many years at the Department of Defense is that military instruments of power are not sufficient to really build long lasting peace and stability. The importance of trade, of economic development, of people-to-people ties is so essential to what we think of as an enduring or a lasting peace.  And so at AJC, we're actually focused on those aspects of trying to advance normalization. Really trying to put more meat on the bones, in the case of where we already have agreements in place. So for example, with Jordan, Egypt, Bahrain, the UAE and Morocco, trying to really build out what more can be done in terms of building economic ties, building people-to-people ties, and advancing those agreements. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: Of course, that work had already begun prior to Anne's arrival. Just two years after the Abraham Accords, Retired Ambassador to Oman Marc Sievers became director of AJC Abu Dhabi: The Sidney Lerner Center for Arab-Jewish Understanding, the first and only Jewish agency office in an Arab and Islamic country.  After more than 30 years as a U.S. diplomat serving across the Middle East and North Africa, Marc has witnessed a number of false starts between Arab nations and Israel. While the Abraham Accords introduced an unprecedented approach, they didn't suddenly stabilize the region.  Marc's four years in Abu Dhabi have been fraught. In January 2022, Houthis in north Yemen launched a drone and missile attack on Abu Dhabi, killing three civilians and injuring six others. In 2023, the October 7 Hamas terror attack on Israel, Israel's retaliation, and Israel's war on seven fronts dimmed Emiratis' public perception of Jews. As recently as this past August, the U.S. Mission to the UAE issued a dire warning to Israeli diplomats and Jewish institutions in Abu Dhabi – a threat that was taken seriously given the kidnapping and murder of a Chabad rabbi in 2024.  But just as the UAE stood by its commitment to Israel, Marc and AJC stood by their commitment to the UAE and Arab neighbors, working to advance Arab-Jewish and Muslim-Jewish dialogue; combat regional antisemitism and extremism; and invigorate Jewish life across the region. From Marc's vantage point, the Abraham Accords revolutionized the concept of normalization, inspiring a level of loyalty he's never before seen.  It's worth noting the precursor to the Abraham Accords: the Peace to Prosperity Summit. For decades, diplomats had frowned on the idea of an economic peace preceding a two-state solution.  MARC SIEVERS: That idea's been out there for a long time. …It was just never embraced by those who thought, you know, first you have a two-state solution. You have a Palestinian state, and then other things will follow. This approach is kind of the opposite. You create an environment in which people feel they have an incentive, they have something to gain from cooperation, and that then can lead to a different political environment. I happen to think that's quite an interesting approach, because the other approach was tried for years and years, and it didn't succeed. Rather than a confrontational approach, this is a constructive approach that everyone benefits from. The Prosperity to Peace Conference was a very important step in that direction. It was harshly criticized by a lot of people, but I think it actually was a very kind of visionary approach to changing how things are done. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: The conference Marc is referring to took place in June 2019 –  a two-day workshop in Bahrain's capital city of Manama, where the Trump administration began rolling out the economic portion of its peace plan, titled "Peace to Prosperity."  The workshop's host Bahrain, as well as Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the Emirates participated, to varying degrees.  The plan called for large scale investment, mostly by other countries in the Gulf and Europe, to advance the Palestinian economy, to integrate the Palestinian and Israelis' economies and establish a small but functional Palestinian state.  Angered by Trump's recognition of Jerusalem, Palestinian leadership rejected the plan before ever seeing its details. But as former U.S. Ambassador to Israel David Friedman pointed out in an earlier episode of this series, that was expected. The plan enabled Israel to demonstrate that it was open to cooperation. It enabled the Trump administration to illustrate the opportunities missed if countries in the region continued to let Palestinian leadership call the shots. It was economic diplomacy at its finest. And it worked.  MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN:  Benjamin Rogers, AJC's Director for Middle East and North Africa Initiatives, who also serves as Deputy Director of the Center for a New Middle East, said the Center has focused heavily on expanding private sector engagement. Israelis and Arab entrepreneurs have quietly traveled to the U.S. as part of the Center's budding business collectives.  BENJAMIN ROGERS: So people who are focused on med tech, people who are focused on agri tech, people who are focused on tourism. And what we do is we say, 'Hey, we want to talk about the Middle East. No, we do not want to talk about violence. No, we don't want to talk about death and destruction. Not because these issues are not important, but because we're here today to talk about innovation, and we're here to talk about the next generation, and what can we do?' And when you say, like, food security for example, how can Israelis and Arabs work together in a way that helps provide more food for the entire world? That's powerful. How can the Israelis and Arabs working together with the United States help combat cancer, help find solutions to new diseases?  If you really want to get at the essence of the Abraham Accords – the ability to do better and work together, to your average person on the street, that's meaningful. And so one of the initiatives is, hey, let's bring together these innovators, these business leaders, private sector, and let's showcase to Arabs, Israelis, non-Jewish community, what the Middle East can be about. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: People-to-people connections. That's what AJC has done for decades, traveling to the region since 1950 to build bridges and relationships. But providing a platform to help facilitate business ventures? That's a new strategy, which is why AJC partnered with Blue Laurel Advisors. The firm has offices in Tel Aviv, Dubai, and Washington, D.C.. It specializes in helping companies navigate the geopolitics of doing business in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, and Israel.  At AJC Global Forum in April, founder and Managing Director Tally Zingher told an audience that the Abraham Accords, which effectively lifted the UAE's ban on business with Israel, brought already existing deals above the radar. TALLY ZINGHER: We've been wowed by what the Center for a New Middle East has been able to do and put forth in the very short time that it's been incubated and Blue Laurel Advisors are really delighted to be part of this project and we're really aligned with its mission and its vision. It's quite simple in the region because the region is really driven by national agendas. I think it's no surprise that the appendix to the Abraham Accords was a direct parallel to the Abu Dhabi national vision. It's the key areas of growth in UAE and Saudi Arabia that are now really well aligned with Israeli strength.  We're talking about the diversification efforts of the UAE and of Saudi Arabia. At Blue Laurel, we're quite focused on Saudi Arabia because of the real growth story underway there created by the diversification efforts. But they're focused on water, energy, renewable energy, healthy cyber security, tourism. Ten years ago when you were doing this work, 15 years ago there wasn't as much complementarity between Israel and the start-up innovation ecosystem and what was going on. The region is really ready and ripe to have Israeli innovation be a part of its growth trajectory. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: Benjy said there's another advantage to building bridges in the business world – continuity. BENJAMIN ROGERS:Out of the three sectors that we're focused on – diplomatic, business, and civil society – business relations are the most resistant to political conflict. There's this element of self interest in it, which I'm not saying is a bad thing, but when you tie the relationship to your own worth and your own value, you're much more likely to go through kind of the ebbs and flows of the political.  Whereas, if you're a civil society, you're really at the mercy of populations. And if the timing is not right, it's not impossible to work together, but it's so much more difficult. Business is even more resistant than political engagement, because if political engagement is bad, the business relationship can still be good, because there's an element of self interest, and that element of we have to work together for the betterment of each other. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: The economic diplomacy complements AJC's partnership with civil society groups, other non-profits that work to bring people together to experience and embody each other's realities in the Middle East. The Center also has continued AJC's trademark traditional diplomacy to expand the circle of peace. Though Marc prefers to call it the circle of productivity.  MARC SIEVERS: I think it achieved new relations for Israel that were perhaps different from what had happened with Egypt and Jordan, where we have long standing peace agreements, but very little contact between people, and very little engagement other than through very specific official channels. The Abraham Accords were different because there was a people-to-people element. The UAE in particular was flooded with Israeli tourists almost immediately after the Accords were signed, Bahrain less so, but there have been some. And not as many going the other way, but still, the human contacts were very much there.  I think it was also building on this idea that economic engagement, joint partnerships, investment, build a kind of circle of productive relations that gradually hopefully expand and include broader parts of the region or the world that have been either in conflict with Israel or have refused to recognize Israel as a sovereign Jewish state. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: It being all of those things explains why the potential for expansion is all over the map. So where will the Abraham Accords likely go next? The Trump administration recently announced the addition of Kazakhstan. But as the Central Asian country already had diplomatic relations with Israel, the move was more of an endorsement of the Accords rather than an expansion. In November 2025, all eyes were on the White House when Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman paid a visit. In addition to the customary Oval Office meeting, President Trump also hosted the Saudi royal at a black-tie dinner. ANNE DREAZEN: Right now, everyone is really talking about and thinking, of course, about Saudi Arabia, and certainly I think there's a lot of promise now with the ceasefire having been achieved. That sort of lays a better groundwork to be able to think about whether we can, whether the United States can play an important role in bringing Saudi Arabia and Israel to the table to move forward on normalization. Certainly from the Saudis have have made they've cautioned that one of their prerequisites is a viable path toward Palestinian statehood. And we've known that, that's in President Trump's 20-point plan. So I think it remains to be seen whether or not Israel and Saudi Arabia can come to a mutually agreed upon way of addressing that key concern for Saudi Arabia. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: But there are also countries who only a year ago never would have considered a relationship with Israel. With Hezbollah diminished and a moderate and forward-leaning Lebanese government in place, quiet conversations are taking place that could lead to a significant diplomatic achievement, even if not as ambitious as the Abraham Accords. The same in Syria, where Ahmed al-Sharaa is sending positive signals that he would at least be willing to consider security arrangements. ANNE DREAZEN: Even if you don't have a Syrian Embassy opening up in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv,  even if you don't have an Israeli embassy opening up in Damascus, there could be other arrangements made, short of a full diplomatic peace accord that would lay the groundwork for some understandings on security, on borders. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: Marc said it remains to be seen whether Oman, his final diplomatic post, will join the Accords. Two years before the signing of the Accords, while serving as ambassador, there was a glimmer of hope. Well, more than a glimmer really. MARC SIEVERS: In Oman, the late Sultan Qaboos, a good, almost two years before the Abraham Accords, invited Prime Minister Netanyahu to visit him in his royal palace in Muscat. Netanyahu came with his wife, Sarah, but also with a lot of the top senior leadership. Certainly his military secretary, the head of the Mossad, a few other people. As soon as Netanyahu landed in Israel, the Omanis put it all over the media, and there were some wonderful videos of the Sultan giving Netanyahu a tour of the palace and a choir of children who came and sang, and some other things that the Sultan liked to do when he had important guests.  And it was quite an interesting moment, and that was two years before. And that was not initiated by the United States. Unlike the Abraham Accords process, that was an Omani initiative, but again, other than the meeting itself, nothing really came of it. The Omanis took a lot of pride in what they had done, and then they backed away. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: Instead, Marc points to the country with the largest Muslim population in the world: Indonesia – especially following recent remarks to the United Nations General Assembly by Indonesia's President Prabowo Subianto. PRABOWO SUBIANTO: We must have an independent Palestine, but we must also recognize, we must also respect, and we must also guarantee the safety and security of Israel. Only then can we have real peace. Real peace and no longer hate and no longer suspicion. The only solution is the two-state solution. The descendants of Abraham must live in reconciliation, peace, and harmony. Arabs, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, all religions. We must live as one human family. Indonesia is committed to being part of making this vision a reality. MARC SIEVERS: We've heard that, you know, Indonesia needs some time to consider this, which makes a lot of sense. It's not something to be done lightly, and yet that would be a huge achievement. Obviously, Indonesia has never been a party to the conflict directly, but they also have never had relations with Israel, and they are the most populous Muslim country. Should that happen, it's a different kind of development than Saudi Arabia, but in some ways, it kind of internationalizes or broadens beyond the Middle East, the circle of peace. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: But in addition to adding signatories, Anne said AJC's Center for a New Middle East will work to strengthen the current relationships with countries that stayed committed during Israel's war against Hamas, despite public apprehensions. Anne recently traveled to Bahrain and the UAE with AJC's Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson, who has long led AJC's Middle East outreach. There, Anne discovered a significant slowdown in the momentum she witnessed when the Accords debuted. ANNE DREAZEN: I saw a real hesitancy during my travels in the region for politicians to publicly acknowledge and to publicly celebrate the Abraham Accords. They were much more likely to talk about peaceful coexistence and tolerance in what they characterize as a non-political way, meaning not tied to any sort of diplomatic agreements. So I saw that as a big impediment.  I do think that among the leadership of a lot of these countries, though, there is a sense that they have to be more pragmatic than ever before in trying to establish, in time to sustain the ceasefire, and establish a more enduring stability in the region. So there's a bit of a disconnect, I think, between where a lot of the publics lie on this issue.  But a lot of the political leaders recognize the importance of maintaining ties with Israel, and want to lay the groundwork for greater stability. We are very interested now in doing what we can as CNME, as the Center for New Middle East, to help rebuild those connections and help reinvigorate those relationships. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: This is especially the case in Bahrain, which has not seen the same economic dividends as the UAE. ANNE DREAZEN: Bahrain is a much smaller country than the UAE, and their key industries – they have less of a developed startup tech ecosystem than the UAE. And frankly, many of Bahrain's sectors don't overlap as neatly with some of Israel's emerging tech sectors, as is the case with the UAE. So, for example, Bahrain is very heavy on steel and aluminum manufacturing, on logistics. Manufacturing is a big part of the sector.  Israeli tech doesn't really, in general, provide that many jobs in that type of sector. Tourism is another area where Bahrain is trying to develop as a top priority. This obviously was really challenged during the Abraham Accords, especially when direct flights stopped over Gulf air. So tourism was not a natural one, especially after October 7.  Bahrain has really prioritized training their youth workforce to be able to take on jobs in IT and financial services, and this is one area we want to look into more and see what can be done. Bahrain is really prioritizing trying to build relationships in areas that can provide jobs to some of their youth. It is not as wealthy a country as the UAE, but it has a very educated young workforce. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: Again, fulfilling dreams, giving youth an opportunity to contribute. That's the necessary narrative to make the Abraham Accords a success.  ALI RASHID AL NUAIMI: It's very important to focus on the youth, and how to create a narrative that will gain the heart and the mind of all youth in the region, the Israeli, the Palestinian, the Arabs, the Muslims. And this is where it is very important to counter hate that comes from both sides. Unfortunately, we still see some hate narratives that come from those far-right extremists who serve the extremists on the Arab side, taking advantage of what they are saying, what they are doing. From the beginning, I convey this message to many Israelis: please don't put the Palestinian people in one basket with Hamas, because if you do so, you will be saving Hamas. Hamas will take advantage of that.  This is where it's very important to show the Palestinian people that we care about them. You know, we see them as human beings. We want a better future for them. We want to end their suffering. We want them to fulfill their dream within the region, that where everybody will feel safe, will feel respected, and that we all will live as neighbors, caring about each other's security and peace.  We have to engage, have a dialogue, show others that we care about them, you see, and try to empower all those who believe in peace who believe that Israeli and Palestinian have to live together in peace and harmony. And it will take time, yes, but we don't have other options. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: But Dr. Al Nuaimi emphasizes that it can't be just a dialogue. It must be a conversation that includes the American voice. The UAE has been clear with the Israeli public on two occasions that attempts by Israel to unilaterally annex the West Bank would be a red line for the relationship between their two countries. But even as the five-year anniversary of the Abraham Accords approached, a milestone that should've been a reminder of the countries' mutual commitments, it took U.S. intervention for Israel to heed that warning. Anne Dreazen agrees that the U.S. plays an important role. She said Israel must continue to defend itself against threats. But in order to create a safe space for Israel in the long term, the U.S., the American Jewish community in particular, can help bridge connections and overcome cultural differences. That will keep the Accords moving in the right direction. ALI RASHID AL NUAIMI: I believe many Arab and Muslim leaders are eager to join it, but you know, they have to do their internal calculation within their people. We have to help them, not only us, but the Israelis. They are looking for a way, a path, to have them as neighbors, and to have a solution that the Palestinian will fulfill their dreams, but the Israeli also will be secure. I think having such a narrative that will take us to the next level by bringing other Arab countries and Muslim country to join the Abraham Accords. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: Thank you for listening. Atara Lakritz is our producer. T.K. Broderick is our sound engineer. Special thanks to Jason Isaacson, Sean Savage, and the entire AJC team for making this series possible.  You can subscribe to Architects of Peace on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace. The views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC. You can reach us at [email protected]. If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to spread the word, and hop onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify to rate us and write a review to help more listeners find us. Music Credits: Middle East : ID: 279780040; Composer: Eric Sutherland Inspired Middle East: ID: 241884108; Composer: iCENTURY Mystical Middle East: ID: 212471911; Composer: Vicher

From New York to California, the 2025 elections carry important implications for the Jewish community. AJC New York Director Josh Kramer addresses concerns over New York City mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani, who has questioned Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state and accused it of genocide. Kramer highlights fears over rising antisemitism in New York and outlines AJC's plan to engage the Mayor-elect on combating hate crimes while remaining vigilant against policies that could target Israel. Looking beyond New York, AJC's Director of National Political Outreach, Rebecca Klein, provides an overview of broader election results, including the victories of Democratic governors in New Jersey and Virginia, as well as the political impact of California's Proposition 50 on redistricting. She explains what these outcomes could mean for Jewish communities and national advocacy efforts. Key Resources: A Letter to Mayor-Elect Zohran Mamdani AJC's Efforts to Support the Hostages Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman:  The first election season since last year's presidential elections is behind us, giving New York City a new mayor, New Jersey and Virginia new governors and California a green light to redraw its map of congressional districts.  We asked Rebecca Klein, AJC's Director of National Political Outreach, to explain what the 2025 election results mean for the American Jewish community.  But first we wanted to hear from Josh Kramer, regional director of AJC New York, about the election of Zohran Mamdani as the 111th mayor of New York City, the largest Jewish community outside the state of Israel.  Josh, if you could please tell us why that matters, why it matters that the largest Jewish community outside Israel is in New York City, and why the prospect of Mr. Mamdani at the helm of City Hall is a concern.  Josh Kramer:  So as you noted, New York has the largest Jewish population in the country and outside of Israel as well. Jews in New York City are scratching their heads today. They're asking themselves, how could it have come to be that a candidate has been elected to the highest office in the land who espouses views that are contrary to so much of the bulk of the mainstream Jewish population in New York City. Views that isolate and demonize and hold Israel to a double standard. This is a challenging day for many in the Jewish community. Manya Brachear Pashman:  If you could rewind, for listeners who have not been following the mayoral election in New York City, because it's sometimes hard for us here in the New York metropolitan area to remember we are not the center of the world. People are more concerned with issues in their own backyard. But if you could please just kind of fill those listeners in on why Mr. Mamdani was a concern and how he expressed those views that you just spoke of being contradictory to the mainstream Jewish community. Josh Kramer: Absolutely, but I will take issue with New York not being the center of the Jewish world, of course, as the director for the AJC New York Regional Office. So I'll say that we know a lot about mayor-elect Mamdani's views on Israel from his long track record, from his statements that he's made along the campaign trail, from bills that he had proposed as a member of the state legislature.  And mayor-elect Mamdani has espoused strong views in support of the BDS movement to isolate and dismantle Israel. He's called into question the Jewish nature of the world's only Jewish state, and he has had a very difficult time consistently calling out and labeling Hamas as a terrorist organization, condemning their actions of holding hostages and otherwise. So it has been a concern that these issues have been at issue during this election.  But of course, we know that this election wasn't about the issues that AJC cares most about. Most people who went to the polls were voting about affordability issues or about bread and butter issues or filling potholes. Some were voting in alignment with their views on Israel. Many in the Jewish community, many who supported the mayor elect were misaligned with the candidates views on Israel. But I think most people were going to the polls based on those affordability issues.  Manya Brachear Pashman: You answered my next question, which was, why did he win? And it sounds like you do not believe that it was necessarily a referendum on Israel.  Josh Kramer:  I think that there's been a lot of writing and a lot of discussion along the campaign trail about these issues. He has been, and other candidates have been asked about their support for the Jewish community and about what they would do to combat the rising tide of antisemitism, which has been a part of the campaign the entire time.  But his non-support of the State of Israel has been a major issue in the campaign. It's just not the issue that I think that people were going to the polls and making their decisions based on. I think that there certainly were people who are motivated either by or repulsed by the now mayor-elect's views on Israel, but I don't think that it was their top issue.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  So you actually penned a letter to the mayor elect after his victory was announced. What did you say in that letter? What did you tell him?  Josh Kramer:   So AJC will work with this new mayor where we can, and that's one of the two core messages, I think, of the letter. We will work with this mayor on his pledge to quadruple, or octuple, the funding to combat hate crimes in New York City. We want to make sure that that funding is spent wisely and appropriately in the city government.  We will work with him on a number of issues where we can align. Modeling, Muslim-Jewish dialog, if that is an area where we can work with the mayor elect. But the second message, and perhaps the more important message, is we will be there to speak out where we need to and understanding that this mayor elect has espoused BDS views for years now, since his days in college, and perhaps before. That we will speak out where we need to, should BDS principles be attempted by the city government as a result of those views.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  You mentioned the funds that he has pledged for combating hate crimes, and I imagine that will require some input from community organizations, especially Jewish organizations, since the Jewish population is often targeted by hate crimes, do you worry that weighing in as much as you did during campaign season will harm your chances of being able to work with and and negotiate and yeah, work in harmony with this mayor.  Josh Kramer:  AJC did feel the need to be on record for this election. And in fact, even prior to the election, we felt we needed to be on record given some of the rhetoric we've seen from this candidate. At the same time, we have engaged with representatives of the mayor's team of the now mayor elects team, and we hope to continue that dialog, to hope to continue to work together where we can. I hope that we haven't harmed our chances to provide input to where hate crimes funding should be spent or could be spent. You're right. Hate Crimes against Jews in New York City, they differ from national statistics in that in New York City, we are the victims of the majority of hate crimes, not just the victims of the religiously motivated or just religious, religiously based hate crimes.  And that means, on average, Jews in New York City are subject to hate crimes, on average, about once per day throughout the year, at least that was the case in 2024 and so we hope very much to be able to monitor and affect how this funding will be spent and make sure that it's spent appropriately in combating the majority of hate crimes, which comprise the Jewish hate crimes.  In fact, there was a hate crime that took place earlier today, one of our on average, one hate crimes per day that we experience against the Jewish community in New York City, and it was a swastika spray painted on a yeshiva in Brooklyn. And just earlier today, mayor elect Mamdani tweeted out, this is a disgusting and heartbreaking act of antiSemitism. It has no place in our beautiful city, and as mayor, he will stand steadfast with our Jewish neighbors to root out the scourge of antiSemitism from our city. So it's an area of interest for us to continue to engage and to see that kind of rhetoric from our leaders is very helpful. So that's, that's what we will continue to look for and also be vigilant at the same time.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  In fact, do you see that as being an entree into conversations and dialog that perhaps just did not, did not happen during the campaign season, for whatever reason, sometimes campaigns can get a little heated and the rhetoric can get a little fiery to fire up the base. Do you have hope? Are you optimistic that perhaps a more rational dialog will emerge during his tenure, and that perhaps this hate crime conversation will be part of it?  Josh Kramer: I do think that that can happen. It can be that strong relationships can be built out of open and very much public dialog, like the letter that was sent out, and it's happened before in New York, we've started very strong relationships with elected leaders in New York City by first starting with very public disagreements. Now that's not our typical way of advocating. Of course, our typical way is diplomatically and behind closed doors, holding very open and frank conversations, but in circumstances like these, perhaps this is the best way to start a conversation.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  Well, Josh, thank you so much for sharing your views on the mayoral election, and now we'll turn to Rebecca Klein to talk about some of the other election results from this week.  Rebecca, welcome to People of the Pod.  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein: Thank you for having me. Manya Brachear Pashman: So now that was one major municipal election this week. We also had smaller municipal elections across the country. There was an election in a suburb of Boston where voters voted to divest from Israel. In this Boston suburb, were there other examples of that in elections across the country, and why did this happen?  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein: So, you know, Boston has been sort of a challenge for us for some time now, and we as an organization have been addressing this. And I think this is a movement, the BDS movement, is one that we've been sort of countering for years now, and really had made a lot of progress, and it's coming back up again now you see sort of in the wake of 10/7 and in some of the concerns about the Israeli government.  But I see this too as sort of these more symbolic gestures, right? And I think there is a movement out there. The Jewish community is paying attention. We are doing everything we can to counter these measures. I do think they are few and far between, and I think largely again, really, to get their messaging out there. These are sort of messaging points, but please know that we are doing everything we can to sort of quiet that noise, that these are not city issues, and we need to be sort of supportive of the Jewish community, especially now in the wake of rising antisemitism everywhere.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  So we'll go up from municipal elections and look at some statewide elections, some gubernatorial votes. We had Mikie Sherril win in the state of New Jersey against Republican candidate Jack Ciattarelli, and then we also had Abigail Spanberger in Virginia become governor. So two women as the head of states. What does this mean for the Jewish communities in those states and also across the country?  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:  So it's some good news, because I think both these candidates, these governors-elect have been really pro-Israel, pro-support of the Jewish community. Have loudly spoken out and shared their support. Have condemned antisemitism, and have really made it a part of their campaign, a part of their statements.  I'll also just note that I think the truth is, is that whoever had won both of these elections, we were going to have a friend in the Jewish community. And this is a really important thing to note, because it sometimes can feel like there's a partisan divide between support for the Jewish community right now on Israel and antisemitism.  And I'll say, when I see these races, where I look at it and I say, You know what, whoever wins, regardless of what else is going on in the background, I know that we can have lines in, we can have communication, and I feel we can have trusted partners. I'll also say that the interesting thing about, you know, we go right from the New York mayor's race to these two gubernatorial races, and you see a real shift from, you know, a very far side of the party to really moderate, centrist Democrats, both winning their primaries and now winning these elections, which I think says a lot.  It's something I'm going to be looking for absolutely going into these midterms. But I do think it's very loud, and I think it's a counterbalance. For people who are concerned about the extremes of the parties, and I am too as well. Of course, I'm concerned, especially as AJC, as a nonpartisan organization that strives to be bipartisan and bring people together, that we have these now very moderate, reasonable voices leading these two very important states. Manya Brachear Pashman:  And in fact, in New Jersey, AJC hosted a candidates forum, and all of the candidates had an opportunity to share their views about combating antisemitism. Correct?  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:  Absolutely, they did, and it really is a testament not to AJC and our influence, but also to the way that these candidates felt that they did need to address our issues, that they wanted to come to our forum in order to really go on the record. They felt that it was important to the population of the state of New Jersey that they had to be on the record for our issues. And absolutely, I think that's an important thing. And I'm glad to see that more and more candidates are taking these positions. They're not shying away from these positions, and they're creating important relationships within the Jewish community.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  And just speaking of these two candidates, Governor-elect Spanberger And Governor-elect Sherril, were they aware and alarmed by a rise of antisemitism in their states?  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:  Absolutely, and particularly some of the rhetoric so in the primary some of this antisemitism or anti-Israel rhetoric came up. And Abigail Spanberger really spoke to it. I think she spoke to it really nicely. She talked about, you know, it's okay to have differences of opinions, but ultimately, we can never cross the line into antisemitism. Mikie Sherril too really has been supportive of the IHRA working definition of antisemitism. Both really have addressed it. They understand that in a post 10/7 world, we really can't take these things for granted. And I know that both of these leaders, I think, will be good friends of the Jewish community and will absolutely be on the forefront of combating antisemitism in their states.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  So I'm going to move over to the west coast and talk about the election in California. I know we have some listeners in California who care about this, about Prop 50, but should people in other states across the nation be looking at California's Prop 50 and thinking about how it might affect them?  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:  Look, I think it's an important conversation. I think it's a difficult conversation, especially for us as we think about what democratic values really mean, when we talk about that as an ideal. Are these major redistricting efforts really the way we want to be thinking about our elections from now on? There are cases to be made on both sides. I think to some degree, if this is going to be the state of the future, you have to level the playing field.  I think that's what California's voters said. They said, We need a level playing field. We need those extra five seats. You know, again, my concern is, where are we going to see the ripple effects of this? Now some states are absolutely backing off these redistricting efforts immediately after this election, which I probably think is maybe the better or the safer way to go.  Because, again, one of the things to keep in mind is, when you create these new seats, you have to think about who are going to be the people running in these seats, whether we're talking about California or Texas. Are we now inviting people from the more extreme parts of the party to be running for these offices, and are we going to like what we get when those people win?  Manya Brachear Pashman:  Could you go back and explain to listeners what prop 50 is? Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:  Absolutely. So basically, prop 50 was on the ballot and California voters got to vote for it yesterday in the election. Basically it allows California to now create a new map, and it'll be with five seats that likely, I should say, will heavily favor Democrats. It will change the map of California pretty drastically in the upcoming midterm elections. Manya Brachear Pashman:  And it's similar to the redistricting that happened in Texas, for example, although it wasn't as drastic a change, correct? I believe that's true, yes, but other states are redistricting as well, or at least discussing redrawing their maps.  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:  Yeah, other states are now talking about it. But like I said, I'm seeing some early sort of signs from some of these states that they may be backing off of that conversation. Again, you don't really know how it's going to play out when you do these efforts. I'll also say that it seems like the campaign to run this prop 50, it seemed a little disorganized all around and so again, if you're going to do this sort of thing, you really want to know that you're going to win it, because it can have really detrimental effects from cycle to cycle, election to election.  So we'll sort of see, when we look at them, at these elections, these off-year elections, they're signals. They're signals to the major parties, they're signals to state parties, they're signals to voters.  And so I think everyone's sort of now doing the analysis in just the hours after this election to see, okay, what does it mean? You know, should we be pivoting our messaging? Are we pivoting the way that we're doing things? And I think we're going to see some shuffling.  And you can, again, you can already sort of see it. You'll hear it in some commentary. You'll see it on Twitter. People are a little bit, there are nerves out there. There's a lot of spin. Every party is going to sort of present their case here. But again, I think there's a lot to learn from what happened yesterday, and we're going to see these effects in the days ahead, in the weeks ahead, and absolutely in the months ahead.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  So where else should we be talking about? We mentioned Virginia, we mentioned New York and New Jersey and California. Were there any other elections of note?  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:  Yeah, there were some local Supreme Court races in Pennsylvania that went democratic, that could have gone either way. There was something in Maine, an absentee ballot measure that was a Republican-led measure that was voted down, and many viewed that as a way to sort of bring voter participation down. So that was considered, I'd say, a win from a democratic perspective.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  Wonderful, well Rebecca, thank you so much for joining us and putting this week's election in perspective.  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:  Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with former White House speechwriter Sarah Hurwitz about her new book As a Jew: Reclaiming Our Story from Those Who Blame, Shame, and Try to Erase Us.

"To me, that ark is: engaging deeply with our traditions. It's reclaiming some of what we lost when we were assimilating and trying to fit in. We have thousands of years of text that have such wisdom about the human condition, about how to be a good person, and lead a worthy life . . . What we can really do is, we can be Jews. And to be a Jew has always been to be different." Sarah Hurwitz—former White House speechwriter and New York Times bestselling author of Here All Along—returns to People of the Pod to discuss her new book, As a Jew: Reclaiming Our Story from Those Who Blame, Shame, and Try to Erase Us. Hurwitz reflects on why antisemitism remains, in her words, "the least mysterious phenomenon," and how Jews can reclaim pride, wisdom, and purpose through Jewish text, practice, and community. Drawing from her work as a hospital chaplain and her conversations with Jewish students on campus, she makes a powerful case for reconnecting with the depth and resilience of Jewish tradition. Key Resources: AJC's Translate Hate Glossary AJC's Efforts to Support the Hostages Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman:     During the Obama administration, Sarah Hurwitz served as senior speech writer for President Barack Obama and chief speech writer for First Lady Michelle Obama. But after she left the White House, she did a little bit of soul searching, and in her mid 30s, reconnected with her Judaism. She wrote about it in a book titled Here All Along, and joined us at the time to talk about it. Sarah has returned with us this week to talk about the book that followed, titled As a Jew: Reclaiming Our Story from Those Who Blame, Shame, and Try to Erase Us.  Sarah, welcome back to People of the Pod. Sarah Hurwitz:  Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So your title has a very powerful accusation. So tell us who is blaming, shaming and trying to erase us? Sarah Hurwitz:   Yeah. So, you know, it's funny. My first book, as you know, was this love letter toJudaism. This, this journey of discovery of Jewish tradition, and I loved it so much, and I wanted to share it. You know, as I was writing it, I was thinking, Oh, where has this been all my life. Kind of a lovely, almost rhetorical question. But after it came out, a few things kind of happened that made me actually ask that question more seriously. Like, Wait, why did I not see any of the 4000 years of Jewish wisdom growing up?  The first thing was, I trained to be a volunteer hospital chaplain, and you know, chaplaincy is multifaith, open to chaplains of all backgrounds. But you know, the training was kind of weirdly Christian. You know, we would talk about our ministry and our theology. And I was told that prayer is God, please heal so and so who's right here in front of me, and I'm just making this prayer up spontaneously, and they can hear me, and that's prayer. And everyone prays that way, I was told. I said, You know that that's not really a common form of Jewish prayer. But I was told, No, no, as long as you don't say Jesus, it is universal. That's interesting.  And then something else that happened is I visited a college campus probably a year before October 7, and I was talking to students there at the Hillel, talking to a bunch of Jewish students. And one of them asked me, What did you do to respond to antisemitism when you were in college? And I was so stunned, I didn't even understand the question at first. And then I said, I didn't, not once, never. Not a single time did I deal with antisemitism.  And the kids just looked kind of shocked, like they didn't believe me. And they started sharing stories of the antisemitism they were facing on campus. And I thought, uh oh, something's going on here. And then I really began kind of taking a deep dive into my identity.  Of like, wait, so why did I spend my whole life being like, oh, I'm just a cultural Jew. I knew nothing about Jewish culture. Which is a beautiful way to be Jewish, being a cultural Jew, but I knew nothing about history, language, anything like that. When I said I'm an ethnic Jew, but Jews are of every ethnicity, so that's nonsense.  Or I'd say social justice is my Judaism, but I didn't know anything about what Judaism said about social justice. Unlike these wonderful Jews who do know about social justice and spend their lives acting out Jewish social justice.  And so I took a deep dive into history, and what I discovered was 2000 years of antisemitism and anti-Judaism and 200 years of Jews in Western Europe in a very understandable attempt to escape that persecution, kind of erasing many of our traditions. And I think that was kind of my answer to, where has this been all my life? And also my answer to, why did I have such an apologetic Jewish identity for so much of my life? Manya Brachear Pashman:     In my introduction, I left off half the title of your first book because it was very long, but I am curious, kind of, when did you realize . . . well, let me give the full title of your book, it's Here All Along: Finding Meaning, Spirituality, and a Deeper Connection to Life--in Judaism (After Finally Choosing to Look There).  So I guess, how was that delayed connection to Judaism, can you elaborate a little bit more about how it was tied to these forces that you just talked about? Sarah Hurwitz:  Yeah, so, you know, something that I didn't really fully understand, I had intimations of this, but didn't really understand this, is that, you know, 2000 years ago, early Christianity very much defined itself against Judaism. There was actually a name for this, the Aversos Judeos tradition, which means against the Jews in Latin.  And you know, early Church Fathers very much were defining Christianity against Judaism, because back then, both of these traditions had originated from Judaism. And you know they parted ways at some point, and the Church Fathers were really trying to distinguish Christianity from Judaism, and to get people to stop kind of practicing both traditions. This tradition really continues with Judaism defined as unspiritual, legalistic, depraved, dead, spiritually superseded. A lot of very, very ugly tropes that kind of have common themes that say that Jews are diabolically powerful, so supernaturally powerful, you can't even believe it. They are also profoundly depraved, evil, bloodthirsty, perverse, and they're in a conspiracy to hurt you. So there may be very few of them, but man, they are working together to really do harm.  And you see these three themes kind of making their way through history, unfortunately, all the way basically, until the Holocaust. And I based a lot of my writing on the work of a number of really distinguished Christian scholars who make this argument. It's actually a pretty common argument among Christian scholars.  And, you know, in recent decades, the church has very much disavowed its historic anti-Judaism and has worked very hard to, you know, fight antisemitism in the church. But, you know, these things really did kind of continue on through the 20th century. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So you do describe in your book moments when you got oddly defensive about your Judaism, or perhaps a bit revisionist about Jewish history and the origin of Jewish traditions, or the reason why they exist now in modern day. Can you elaborate on some of those moments for our listeners and explain how you've self-corrected thatdefense? Sarah Hurwitz:  You know, I think a lot of it took the form of, oh, I'm Jewish, but not that Jewish. It was just sort of this immediate, but I'm not one of those Jews. You know, those really Jewish Jews. Well, I'm sorry, would it be a problem if I were? What if social justice wasn't my Judaism, but Judaism was my Judaism? Would that be okay? You know, just beginning to notice, like, Why am I always kind of pushing it away, claiming that I'm not too Jewish? That's a very strange way to announce someone's identity. I think, you know, Dara Horn has actually a really, quite an amazing essay called The Cool Kids, and she talks about these two different types of antisemitism. And one is this kind of eliminationist antisemitism which says the Jews are bad, there's nothing they can do to be good. We must kill them. And you know, that is the Holocaust, pogroms. We learn about that kind of antisemitism in school. But there's another kind of antisemitism, which is conversionist, which says, yes, the Jews are bad, but there is something they can do to be okay and saved. And that is, they can disavow whatever we, the majority, find disgusting about Jewish civilization.  So you know, back in the day, it was, reject Jewish religion and convert to Christianity, and you'll be saved, maybe. For some amount of time, possibly. In my parents and grandparents generation, it was, you know, reject your last name, get a nose job. Stop being so "Jewy", be a little bit more "waspy," and then maybe we'll let you into our club. Then maybe we'll accept you.  And today, what you see is you have to reject your ancestral homeland, you know, reject Israel, and then you'll be okay. And, you know, I visited 27 college campuses, and I kind of saw how this sometimes takes on the format of almost like a Christian conversion narrative, where it goes something like, you know, growing up, my rabbi and my parents told me Israel was perfect and amazing and a utopia. And then I got to college, and I realized that actually it's a colonialist, Nazi, racist society, and I had an epiphany. I saw the light, and I took anti-Zionism and anti-colonialism into my heart, and now I'm saved. Now I'm a good Jew. And their classmates are like, now you're a good Jew.  And as Dara Horn puts it, this kind of antisemitism involves the weaponization of shame. It involves really trying to convince Jews that there is something fundamentally shameful about some aspect of themselves, their identity, their tradition. And today, that thing is Israel. This idea that there's something fundamentally . . . it's like the original sin of the world. Manya Brachear Pashman:     And you also talk about the tradition of circumcision, and how that came up, and you found yourself explaining this to someone. Can you elaborate on that for our listeners? Which I thought was really interesting.  Sarah Hurwitz:  This was during an encounter with a patient. I was doing a chaplaincy shift, and  usually I don't tell my patients my religious background, I'm very neutral, unless they're Jewish, in which case, I do tell them I'm Jewish. But, you know, I was finishing up a conversation with this very lovely lady. And she was very curious about my background. And so I told her, you know, I'm Jewish. And her eyes kind of lit up, and she said, Oh, you know, many of my neighbors are Jewish. I've actually been to two brisses in the past month.  And she just, you know, and she was so lovely, like, she actually seemed to be just really happy to be included in this tradition of her neighbors. And I got weirdly defensive, and was like, Oh, well, you know, just so, you know, medical professionals, they say whether you circumcise or don't circumcise, it's really, it's equally safe either way. And you know, we often, you know, when we do brisses, they're often done by a medical provider.  And I'm going on and on and like, this woman did not say the slightest negative thing about this tradition, but suddenly I am defensive. Suddenly it's like, Huh, interesting. You know, I think that it was an illustration to me of the way that we can sometimes really imbibe all of the kind of negative views about Jews and Jewish traditions that are around us, and become defensive, and sometimes we don't even realize that they're there. It's almost like they're the air that we breathe. Manya Brachear Pashman:     But let me challenge that and push back a little bit. I mean, is it okay to not agree with some of the traditions of the Jewish faith and be open about your disagreement with that? I certainly know a lot of Christians who don't like things that emerge from their tradition or from their community. Is that okay? Or is it not when Judaism is threatened? Sarah Hurwitz:  So I actually do think that's okay. You know, I have no problem with that, but I think the problem in this situation was that I have no problem with circumcision, but I'm suddenly getting defensive and trying to convince this woman that it's not weird. And I'm thinking, why am I doing this? It was very interesting to me that I felt so suddenly defensive and anxious. You know, it was very surprising to me. Manya Brachear Pashman:     And similarly, it's okay to criticize Israeli policy too, right? I mean, it's totally acceptable.  Sarah Hurwitz:  Absolutely. This is the thing that I'm so confused about. Where people are saying, well, you know, you're saying that it's not okay to criticize Israel. And I'm like, I'm sorry. Have you been to Israel? It's like the national pastime there to criticize the government. I criticize the Israeli government all the time, as do millions of American Jews.  This idea that this is somehow… that we're somehow reacting to criticism of Israel, that's ridiculous. I think what we're reacting to is not criticism of Israel, but it's something else. You know, when you have students on a college campus saying from water to water, Palestine should be Arab, or Israelis are Nazis. I just, with all due respect, I don't see that as criticism. Nor would I see it as criticism if, God forbid, a Jewish student ever said from water to water, Israel should be Jewish, or, Palestinians are terrorists. That is hateful, disgusting, racist, eliminationist language. And if I ever heard a Jewish student say that, I mean, let me tell you, I would have quite a talking to with that kid.  So that's not criticism. Criticism is, I am vehemently opposed and abhor, this policy, this ideology, this action, for these reasons. That's criticism. And I think you can use real strong language to do that kind of criticism. But there's a difference between a criticism and slurs and baseless accusations. And I think we need to be just clear about that. Manya Brachear Pashman:     All right, so you just use the term from water to water instead of from river to sea. Was that on purpose? Sarah Hurwitz:  Not necessarily. It's just a clearer illustration of what I think from the river to the sea really means, you know, I think  that is the Arabic that is used. Infrom the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free. It's like, you can kind of make an argument that this is about Palestinian Liberation. And okay, fair enough. But I think when you get the from water to water, it shall be Arab, that's when I think there's less of an argument that it's about freedom, and it seems a little bit more eliminationist to me. Manya Brachear Pashman:     Interesting. I've not heard that before. But I like that. So you call antisemitism the least mysterious phenomenon. Can you please explain what you mean by that? Sarah Hurwitz:  Yeah, you know, I think, like a lot of young people, my antisemitism education was mainly just Holocaust education. And I kind of walked away thinking like, huh, how wild that the civilized world just lost its mind in the mid-20th century and started killing Jews. That's so shocking and disturbing, you know, why is that? And the answer was kind of like, well, you know, the Germans lost World War I. They blamed the Jews. There was a depression. They blamed the Jews.  And when you ask why the Jews, it's like, well, because of prejudice and scapegoating. I'm like, Okay, right. But again, why the Jews? Prejudice and scapegoating, that's the answer. It's like, well, actually, the answer really is because of 2000 years of Christian anti-Judaism that preceded that. It wasn't mysterious why the Jews were targeted.  This was a 2000-year neural groove that had been worn into the Western world psyche. And this is not my argument. This is the argument of countless Christian scholars whose brilliant work I cite. And so I think that the unfortunate thing about some forms of Holocaust education is that it leaves you with the impression that, oh, this is so mysterious, it's just kind of eternal and kind of comes out of nowhere. Or even worse, you might even think maybe we did something to deserve this. But it's not mysterious. I can show you its path through history.  And I think it's very important that Jews understand this history. And look, I think this is very hard to teach in an average American public school. Because, you know, we live in a country where, you know, saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas is very upsetting for some people. They feel very threatened and triggered by that.  So for a teacher to say, like, Okay, kids today we're going to learn about how 2000 years of Christian anti-Judaism paved the way for the Holocaust . . . I don't think that's going to go well. Even if many mainstream Christian scholars would agree that that's true, this is a challenge that we face. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So you have continued, as you said, to visit college campuses where antisemitism has been an issue since October 7, more of an issue than it even was beforehand. And yet, when you were at Harvard and Harvard Law, you've said you could have walked through Harvard Yard wrapped in an Israeli flag and no one would have said a word or reacted negatively. So what has changed, and does it signal a more general shift on campuses of kind of uncensored, unbridled speech?  In other words, if black students support black lives matter, or gay students are marching for pride, do you feel like there's a sense that students who disagree with that from either the right or the left, have kind of claimed a license to criticize that too? Sarah Hurwitz:  No. I try to explain to college students when they say, Well, okay, my campus isn't that bad, you know, I can wear my Jewish star, and I won't get, you know, harassed or ostracized. And I say, like, okay, great, if it's not that bad, I'll just wear my Israel t-shirt and we'll see how it goes. They're like, No.  And then I have to go through this long litany of like, okay, if your black classmate said to you, well, this campus isn't so bad for black students, but I can't wear my Black Lives Matter t-shirt or else I'll be harassed and ostracized. I hope you would say that's not okay, that's racism, pretty clear. Or if your queer classmate said, Well, this campus is pretty good for queer people, but I can't wear my pride t-shirt, I hope you would say, That's not pretty good. That's homophobia.  You know, when the majority feels entitled to decide how the minority can embody and express their identity, I think we have a really serious problem. And  sometimes the kids will push back on me. Well, no, no, but the problem isn't being Jewish. It's Israel. I'm like, okay, but if your Chinese American classmate wore a t-shirt that said China, even if all your classmates knew that the Chinese government had been interning a million Muslim Uighurs in camps and subjecting them to horrific human rights violations, would they harass and ostracize her?  And they're like, Well, probably not. Right, because they would assume that she has a relationship to China that maybe involves having heritage there, or maybe she studied abroad there, or maybe she's studying Chinese, maybe she has family there. I think they would assume that she has some connection to the country that doesn't involve agreeing with the policies of the Chinese government, and Jewish students on campus really aren't afforded that courtesy.  And I'll tell you, most of the Jewish students I spoke with on campus, they, like me, are extremely critical of this current Israeli government. Extremely, extremely critical. They have all sorts of criticisms about what's happening in Gaza, of the occupation.  You know, their views are quite nuanced and complex, but there is no room given for that. You know, I think on some college campuses, Israel has been put into the same bucket as the KKK and the Nazi party. So I can't say to you, look, you know, I'm a Nazi, but I'm a liberal Nazi. Or, oh, you know, I'm in the KKK, but I'm not racist. It's like, come on, right?  These are vile entities with which no connection is acceptable, period. And I think once Israel ceases to be a country and instead becomes the representation of all evil in the world, there's really no relationship that you can have with it that's acceptable. And I think that is a pretty devastating place for it to be today.  And I'll tell you, I think it's a really challenging moment right now where I, like a lot of American Jews, I'm a Zionist. I believe that Jews have a right to a safe and secure home state in their ancestral homeland. I believe we have the right to national independence and self determination, like Japanese people have in Japan and Latvians have in Latvia, and on and on. And you know, we've run that experiment of Jewish powerlessness for 2000 years, and it didn't go well. Even as late as the 20th century. It wasn't just that two thirds of Jews in Europe got wiped out because of the Holocaust.  It's that nearly a million Jews who lived in Arab lands had to flee persecution, most of them to Israel. It's that 2 million Russian Jews had to flee persecution, half of them to Israel. It's that 10s of 1000s of Ethiopian Jews, I can go on and on. So we know, we've run that experiment of Jewish statelessness, and it doesn't go well.  And at the same time, we are looking at this current Israeli government, and we are appalled. We're appalled by the ideology, we're appalled by many of the policies. And you know, for me as an American, this feels very familiar, because I love this country. I'm a proud, patriotic American, and I happen to very much disagree with the current president. I happen to be very much appalled by the current president's policies and ideology. And so, I think many people are able to hold that, but somehow it's harder with Israel, because of what is in the air right now. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So, really you're saying that antisemitism has distorted history. Distorted people's understanding of Israel's history, their understanding of modern Israel's rebirth and existence. It spawned anti-Zionism. Correct?  Sarah Hurwitz:   Yes. Manya Brachear Pashman:     Did you encounter that during your time in the Obama administration? Do you see it now, in hindsight or or is it a more recent emergence? Sarah Hurwitz:   I think this is more recent. I mean, you know, probably in some spaces it was, you know, I was in the administration from 2009 to 2017. I never once saw any kind of anti-Zionism or antisemitism. I mean, it was one of the best places to be a proud, passionate Jew. I knew my colleagues could not have been more supportive of my Jewish exploration. They were so proud when I wrote my first book.  So I never saw any of this ever, once. And I think, you know, I think what is so confusing about this is that we often think about antisemitism as a kind of personal prejudice, like, oh, you know, Jews are fill in the blank, nasty thing. They are dirty, cheap, crass. I don't want my daughter to marry one. I don't want one in my country club.  You don't really see that kind of antisemitism in the circles where I travel anymore. What you see instead is more of political antisemitism, which is antisemitism as a kind of conspiracy theory that says that we, the majority, are engaged in a grand moral project, and the only thing stopping us are these Jews. We the majority are Christianizing the Roman Empire.  The only thing stopping us, these Jews who won't convert. We the majority are bringing about the brotherhood of man, the great communist revolution. The only thing stopping us, these capitalist Jews. We the Germans, are bringing about the great, racially pure Aryan fatherland. The only thing stopping us – these race-polluting Jews.  And today in America, you see it on the right and the left. On the right, it's, you know, we white Christian Americans are bringing back white Christian civilization to America. And the only thing stopping us are these Jews who are importing black and brown immigrants to replace white people. That is the extremely racist and antisemitic theory known as the Great Replacement theory. It is an ugly, disgusting lie.  On the left you have, you know, we this very moral group of people. we are bringing about the revolution of anti-colonialism, anti-Zionism. And the only thing stopping us are these colonialist Zionists, which is a polite way of saying Jews. And so, you know, I think it's very important to understand, as Yossi Klein Halevi, the journalist, puts it, you know, what you see again and again is whatever is the worst thing in a society, that is what the Jews are deemed to be. Whatever is the worst thing among a particular population, that is what the Jews are deemed to be. And I think we're kind of seeing that on both the right and the left today. Manya Brachear Pashman:     If antisemitism defines so much, or has defined so much of Jewish identity, how do we reclaim that? How have you reclaimed that? And how have you found joy in your Jewish identity, especially after doing this book and immersing yourself and all of this extremely depressing perspective? Sarah Hurwitz:   I hear this kind of line among many Jews that breaks my heart. It's this sort of self-flagellation, of like, if we just had the right PR campaign, if we just had the right tweet, then we would fight antisemitism. It's our fault, we're doing such a bad job fighting antisemitism. And, you know, I love the ambition there. I think that is so sweet.  But there are 16 million of us in the whole world. That's with an M, million, like the size of like, the fifth largest city in China. We are a Chinese city. There are billions of people who don't really love us out there. And the idea that we, this tiny group of people, is going to somehow change the minds of billions of people. I really respect the ambition, but I think that's a tough one.  I think it's sort of like trying to bail out a tsunami with buckets. You know, if enough of us do it, I'm sure we can make a difference. And I have such respect for the people who are doing that work. I think it's very important. But I also would just suggest that maybe we should put a little more of our energy into building an ark to weather the storm.  And you know, to me, that ark is, engaging deeply with our traditions. It's reclaiming, I think, some of what we lost when we were assimilating and trying to fit in. You know, we have thousands of years of text that have such wisdom about the human condition, about how to be a good person and lead a worthy life and find profound spiritual connection. We have just so many beautiful traditions. And so I think that what we can really do is, we can be Jews. And to be a Jew has always been to be different.  That was kind of our value proposition thousands of years ago when we came along and said, hey guys, monotheism. Totally different way of thinking. We said, hey, every human being is created in the image of God, which is an idea that every human being is infinitely worthy. Which, again, this is the idea that underlies things like liberalism, democracy, human rights. These are really Earth-shatteringly different counter cultural ideas, and we have so many more of those that I still think the world needs today.  So I think that rather than just being anti-anti-semites, that we can be proud Jews instead, and we can really focus on becoming more learned, more vibrant members of our communities, you know, engaging in more of our traditions and our rituals.  I also think, you know, Dara Horn has been doing a lot of great work about educating kids about Jewish civilization. Rather than having young people only know about the Jews via the Holocaust, she really wants to teach young people about Jewish civilization, ideas, and people. I think that is a very, very powerful and very helpful idea. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So how are you doing this? How do you spend each week? How do you reclaim some of these traditions and joy? Sarah Hurwitz:    For me, it's studying. That's really how I engage, you know, I have various chavrutas or I study Jewish texts. I love reading Jewish books, and I love participating in the Jewish community. You know, I love engaging with various Jewish organizations, you know, serving on various committees, and just trying to be part of this project of reclaiming Judaism, of making it more accessible to more Jews. This is what I love doing, and I'll be starting in January. I'm actually going to be starting a rabbinic program at the Hartman Institute. It's a part time program.  And I'm not not planning to be a congregational rabbi, but I do want to keep writing books, and I am really grateful for this opportunity to get a much deeper, more thorough Jewish education than the one I've kind of given to myself, and, you know, kind of cobbled together. I think this is going to be a really extraordinary opportunity. So I'm very excited about that.  Manya Brachear Pashman:     Oh, wow. Well, congratulations. I look forward to welcoming you back to the podcast and calling you Rabbi.  Sarah Hurwitz: Thank you. Manya Brachear Pashman:     Thank you so much for joining us, Sarah. Sarah Hurwitz:  Such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.   

How did the Israeli economy react to the war against Hamas?  Hear from a major player on the ground – Dr. Eugene Kandel, former economic adviser and Chairman of the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange, discusses Israel's financial resilience after the war against Hamas. Having made aliyah from the Soviet Union in 1977 with his family, Dr. Kandel covers the stock market rebound, missed economic opportunities with Jordan and Egypt, and the success of the Abraham Accords.  *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Take Action: Elected Leaders: Demand Hamas Release the Hostages  Key Resources: AJC's Efforts to Support the Hostages Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman:   Professor Eugene Kandel served as economic adviser to the Prime Minister of Israel from 2009 to 2015, and with Ron Sor is a co-founder of Israel's Strategic Futures Institute. He is also chairman of the Tel Aviv stock exchange, the only public stock exchange in Israel, known locally as the Bursa. He is with us now to talk about the impact of Israel's war against Hamas in Gaza on Israel's economy, the potential and impact so far of the Abraham Accords, and how history could one day view October 7 as a turning point for Israel's democracy.  Dr. Kandel, welcome to People of the Pod. Eugene Kandel:   Thank you. Thank you for having me.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   Before we begin, your family came to Israel in 1977. Can you share your family's Aliyah story? Eugene Kandel:   Yeah, when I was 14, my family was living very comfortably in the Soviet Union. My father was a quite known writer, playwright, a script writer. And around him was a group of Jewish people of culture that were quite known in their domains, mostly Jewish. And so at some point in 67 he sort of had this vision and started studying Hebrew. But 1970 and then by '73 when I was 14 years old, he came to me and said, Look, your mom and I decided to immigrate to Israel. What do you think about it, and I said, I don't know what I think about it. Okay, you know, if we want to immigrate, let's immigrate. I never felt too much belonging there. So unfortunately, Soviet authorities had other ideas about that. So we spent four years as refuseniks. My father, together with Benjamin Fine, were the editors of the underground publication called Tarbut. And for people who did not live there, they put their names on it. So this was, these were typewritten copies of Jewish culture monthly. And there were two names on it. You could go to jail for this. My father was always pretty brave man for his petite size, because during the Second World War, he was very, very hungry, to say the least. So he didn't really grow very much. But he's very big inside.  And so the following four years were pretty tough on them, because he couldn't work anywhere. Just like in McCarty years in this country, people would give work to their friends and then publish it under their own name. That's what he did for his friends, and they would share the money with him, or give him most of the money. There were very, very brave people. And then, you know, there was an incident where they wanted to send a message to my father to be a little less publicly outspoken. And so two KGB agents beat me up.  And that started a whole interesting set of events, because there was an organization in Chicago called Chicago Action for Soviet Jewry. Pamela Cohen. And I actually met Pamela when I was studying at the University of Chicago. And thanked her. So they took upon themselves to harass Soviet cinema and theater and culture officials. And so they were so successful that at some point, the writers league from Hollywood said that nobody will go to Moscow Film Festival unless they release us because they do not want to associate with people who beat up children. I wasn't a child, I was 17 years old, but still. And that sort of helped. At least, that's how we think about it.  So it's worthwhile being beaten up once in a while, because if it lets you out, I would take it another time. And then we came to Israel in a very interesting time. We came to Israel four hours after Anwar Sadat left. So we came to a different Israel. On the brink of a peace agreement with Egypt. And so that was it.  We came to Mevaseret Zion, which was an absorption center. A small absorption center. Today I actually live probably 500 yards from where we stayed. Sort of full circle.  And today, it's a significant, it's about 25,000 people town. And that's the story, you know, in the middle, in between then and now, I served in the military, did two degrees at Hebrew University, did two degrees at the University of Chicago, served as professor at the University of Rochester, and then for 28 years, served as professor of economics and finance at the Hebrew University. So I keep doing these circles to places where I started. Manya Brachear Pashman:   You say you arrived four hours after Sadat's visit to Israel on the brink of a peace agreement with Egypt. Did that peace agreement live up to expectations? Eugene Kandel:   Well, it depends what are your expectations. If your expectation will continue in the war, it definitely did, because, you know, for the last, you know, whatever, 48 years, we didn't have any military activity between Israel and Egypt. And we even have security collaboration to some extent. But if you're thinking about real peace, that would translate into people to people peace, business to business peace, it did not generate that at all. Because there was a very, very strong opposition on the street level and on the intellectuals level.  It actually started to break a little bit, because today you can find analysts on Egyptian television that are saying that we are, we are stupid because we don't collaborate with Israel. It is allowed today, It's allowed to be said in, you know, 20-30, years [ago], that person would have been ostracized and would never be allowed to speak.  So there is some progress, but unfortunately, it's a huge loss for the Egyptian economy. For Israeli economy, it is probably also a loss, but Israeli economy has a lot of alternatives in other countries. But Egyptians don't seem to be able to implement all the things that Israelis implemented a long time ago. You know, whether it's water technologies, whether it's energy technologies. Lots of lots of stuff, and it's really, really unfortunate that we could have helped Egyptian people, the same people who rejected any relations with us. And that's a pity. Manya Brachear Pashman:   The next peace agreement that came was with Jordan in 1994, quite some time later. Did that peace agreement live up to expectations, and where were you in 1994? Eugene Kandel:   1994, I was a professor at the University of Rochester, so I wasn't involved at all. But again, it was a very, very similar story. It was the peace that was sort of forced from above. It was clearly imposed on the people despite their objections, and you saw demonstrations, and you still see. But it was clear to the leadership of Jordan that Israel is, in their case, is absolutely essential for the survival of the Hashemite Dynasty. In the end the Israeli intelligence saved that dynasty, many, many times.  But again, it wasn't translated into anything economic, almost anything economic, until in the early 2000s there were some plants in Jordan by Israeli businessmen that were providing jobs, etc. But I was privileged to be the first to go to Jordan together with American officials and negotiate the beginning of the gas agreement.  We were selling gas to Jordan, because Jordan was basically going bankrupt because of the high energy costs. Jordan doesn't have its own energy, apart from oil shale. Sorry, shale oil. And for some reason they weren't able to develop that. But Israeli gas that we are selling to them as a result of what we started in 2012 I believe. Actually very important for the Jordanian economy. And if we can continue that, then maybe connect our electrical grid, which is now in the works, between the water-energy system.  And now maybe there is a possibility to connect the Syrian grid. If we have an agreement with Syria, it will help tremendously these countries to get economic development much faster. And it will help Israel as well, to balance its energy needs and to maybe get energy, provide energy, you know, get electricity, provide gas. You know, there's all these things where we can do a lot of things together. If there is a will on the other side. There's definitely will on the Israeli side. Manya Brachear Pashman:   In addition to gas, there's also water desalination agreements, as well, right? Eugene Kandel:   Yeah, there was a Red to Dead project, which was to pump the water all the way from the Red Sea along the Arava Valley. And then there is a 400 meter, 500 meter drop. And so to generate electricity through that desalinate that water that you pump, and then send that water to Egypt, send the electricity that was generated and not needed to Israel and then dump this salt stuff into the Dead Sea. Frankly, I don't know where this project is. Nobody talks about it for the last seven, eight years. I haven't heard.  Now there are different projects where you would get energy generated in Jordan and sold to Israel in Eilat, for example, because it's difficult for us to bring electricity all the way South. And so if the Jordanians have large fields of photovoltaic energy they can sell, they can satisfy the needs of a lot, and then in return, we can desalinate water and send it to them. So there's all kinds of projects that are being discussed. Manya Brachear Pashman:   But Israel does provide water to Jordan, correct? Eugene Kandel:   There are two agreements. One agreement, according to our peace agreement, we are supposed to provide them with a certain amount of water. I don't remember the exact amount. But that's not enough, and so we also sell them water. So think about it. There is a sweet water reservoir called Tiberius, Kinneret, in the north, and we sending water from there into two directions according to the agreement. We're sending it to Amman, pumping it up to the mountains, and then we're sending it throughout the Jordan Valley, all the way along the Jordan River, to the Jordanian side. So it's quite striking when I used to go between Jerusalem and Amman, it's actually an hour and a half drive. That's it. You go down, you go up, and you're there.  And so when you're passing the Israeli side, you see the plantations of date palms that are irrigated with drip irrigation. So very, very economically, using the brackish salt water that is pumped out of the ground there. You cross two miles further, you see banana plantations that are flood irrigated at 50-centigrade weather, and the water that comes from them comes on an open canal. So basically, 50% of the water that we send this way evaporates. Growing bananas in that climate and using so much water, it's probably, if you take into account the true cost of water, it's probably money losing proposition, but they're getting the water. The people that are the settlements on that Bank of Jordan River, are getting it for free. They don't care. And if somebody would just internalize that, and instead of sending the water down in an open canal, would send the whole water up to Amman, where there is a shortage of water, enormous shortage of water. And then you would take the gravity and use that water to generate electricity, to clean that water, the sewage, clean it and drip irrigate plantations, everybody would make enormous amounts of money. Literally enormous amounts of money. And everybody's lives would be better, okay? And I'm not talking about Israelis. It's within Jordan. And you can't say that there's no technology for that, because the technology is two miles away. You can see it.  And it just puzzles me. Why wouldn't that be done by some entrepreneurs, Jordanian entrepreneurs. We could really help with that. We could even help by buying the water from them back. The water that we give them, we can buy it back. Because in Israel, the water is very expensive. So we could finance that whole thing just by sending the water back, but that would be probably politically unacceptable, I don't know. But it's really, really . . . for an economist, it's just a sad story. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Missed opportunities. Well, let's go back. I introduced you as the chair of the Tel Aviv stock exchange, the Bursa. And I am curious. Let's talk about the economy. Does Israel treat its stock market the same way we do? In other words, are there opening and closing bells at the beginning and end of every day? How does the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange work compared to the United States? Eugene Kandel:   Well, we do have the opening bell, but it's usually reserved for some events. We don't have the events every day. Usually, if there's a new listing, or there's somebody celebrating, like, 20 years of listing, we have all kinds. Recently, we had Mr. Bill Ackman came and gave a speech and opened the trading together with us.  There are events around Jeffries Conference. But it's much more, you know, ceremony, I mean, it's not really connected to anything. Trading starts whether you press the button or don't. But Israeli stock exchange is unique in the following sense: it is an open limit book. What means that there is, you know, buyers meet sellers directly, and it works like that, not only in stocks, which is similar to what it is everywhere, but it's also in bonds, government bonds, corporate bonds, and in derivatives.  So in that sense, we do have our ceremonies, but the interesting thing is, what is happening with the exchange in the last two years. Accidentally, I joined two years ago as the chairman, and over the last two years, the stock exchange, the indices of Israeli Stock Exchange were the best performing out of all developed countries, by far. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Did that have something to do with the war? Eugene Kandel:   Well, it should have been, you know, in the opposite direction, but, the war is, not this length of war, not this intensity of war . . . but if you look back over at least 25 years, the Israeli economy responds very robustly to military conflict. Usually they're much shorter. If you look at even quarterly returns of the stock exchange, you would not know that there was a war in the middle, definitely not annual. If you look over the last 25 years, and you look at this stock, annual returns of the indices, you would not know that there was anything wrong, apart from our 2003 crisis, and Corona. Even the great financial crisis, you would not see it. I mean it was basically past us, because we didn't have a financial crisis in Israel. We had repercussions from, you know, the rest of the world's financial crisis, but we didn't get our own. And so we do have resilience built in, because we're just so used to it. However, having said that, it's the first time that we have such a long and intensive war on seven, whatever fronts. So it is quite surprising that just like any other time, it took about three months for the stock market to rebound after October 8. It was a big question whether to open the market on October 8. We struggled with it, and we decided that we do not want to give anybody the right to disrupt the Israeli economy.  I mean, it was a really tough decision, because there was certain people were saying, Well, how can you do that? It's a national tragedy. And of course, it was a national tragedy. But closing the market would have meant two things.  First of all, it would have shown the world that our economy can be interrupted. It would have given the benefit to those people that did these atrocities, that they managed to do more damage than they already did. And we didn't want to do that. And it didn't collapse. It went down, of course, but it rebounded within less than three months. By the end of that year, it was back on the same level. And then it did this comeback, which was quite phenomenal. And it's an interesting question, how come? Because during that time, we had some cases where Israel was boycotted by investors, very few, by the way, but we also saw many, many new investors coming in.  You could look at the war from the negative side. Of course, huge costs. But with all that, it was about 10% of annual GDP, because we are, you know, we're a big economy, and we borrowed that very easily because we had a very strong macro position before that. So we now 76% debt to GDP ratio. It's much lower than majority of developed countries. But we still had to borrow that. It was a lot of money, and then the defense budget is going to go up. So there is this cost.  But vis a vis that, A, Israeli technology has been proven to be unmatched, apart from maybe us technology in certain cases, but in some cases, even there, we have something to share. And so we have huge amounts of back orders for our defense industries. During the war, and they were going up when some of the countries that are making these purchases were criticizing us. They were learning from what we did, and buying, buying our equipment and software, etc.  And the second thing, we removed the huge security threat. If you look before October 7, we were quite concerned about 150,000 missiles, some of them precise missiles in Hezbollah's hands, an uninterrupted path from Iran through Syria to Hezbollah, constantly replenishing. We would bomb them sometimes in Syria, but we didn't catch all of them. We had Hamas, we had Hezbollah, we had Syrians, we had Iranians. We had, you know, not, you know, Iraqi militia. So, Hezbollah doesn't exist. Well, it exists, but it's nowhere near where it where was at. And the Lebanese Government is seriously attempting to disarm it. Syria, we all know what happened in Syria. We didn't lift a finger to do that. But indirectly, from what happened in Hezbollah, the rebels in Syria became emboldened and did what they did. We know what happened with Hamas. We know what happened with Iran. Okay, Iran, even Europeans reimposed the sanctions. So that's the side effect.  So if you look at the Israeli geopolitical and security situation, it's much, much better. And in that situation, once the war is over and the hostages are returned, and hopefully, we will not let this happen again, ever, to work hard so we remember that and not become complacent. It's an enormous, enormous boost to Israeli economy, because this security premium was quite big.  So that is on the positive side, and if we play smart, and we play strategically, and we regain sort of good relations with some of the countries which are currently very critical of us, and somehow make them immune to this anti Israeli antisemitism propaganda, we can really get going. Manya Brachear Pashman:   You mentioned investors. There were more investors after the war. Where were those investors coming from, internally or from other countries?  Eugene Kandel:   It's interesting that you asked this question, because in 2020, early 2024 a lot of Israeli institutions and individuals moved to S&P 500, and they got really hammered. Twice. Because A, S&P 500 was lagging behind the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange. So there was some other players coming in, because otherwise, when you move money, usually, you should see a drop, but you saw an increase. That meant that there are others came in. But the more interesting thing is that shekel was very weak when they bought dollars, and now shekel is about 15% stronger, so they lost 15% just on the exchange rate. And so a lot of money that went to S&P came back in the last six, eight months. So the internal money came back.  But on top of internal money, we looked at the behavior of foreign investors right after October 7. They didn't flee the country. Some of them sold stocks, bought bonds. And then so Israeli institutions made money on that, because Israeli institutions bought stocks from them at about 10%, 15% discount, and then when it rebounded, they made money. But that money didn't leave, it stayed in Israel, and it was very costly to repatriate it, because the shekel was very weak. And so buying dollars back was expensive. And the money slowly went into stocks. And then people made quite a lot of money on this. Manya Brachear Pashman:   The last topic I want to cover with you is external relations. You mentioned Syria, the potential of collaborating with Syria for water, gas. Eugene Kandel:   Electricity. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Electricity. And I presume that you're referring to the possibility of Syria being one of the next members to join the Abraham Accords. That has been mentioned as a possibility. Eugene Kandel:   Maybe. But we can, we can do something much less. Manya Brachear Pashman: Outside of the Accords. Eugene Kandel:   Outside of the Accords, or pre-Accord, or we can, we can just create some kind of collaboration, just we had, like as we had with UAE for for 15 years before the Accord was signed. Was a clear understanding.  Maybe. But we can, we can do something much less outside of the Accord, or pre-Accord, or we can, we can just create some kind of collaboration, just we had, like as we had with UAE for for 15 years before the Accord was signed. Was a clear understanding.  You know, I was in UAE, in Dubai on the day of signing of the Accord. I landed in Dubai when they were signing on the on the green loan, on the White House lawn. And we landed. It was amazing. It was the degree of warmth that we received from everybody, from ministers in the economy to ministers that came to speak to us, by the dozen to people in the hotel that were just meeting us. They issued, for example, before signing the Accord, there was a regulation passed by by UAE that every hotel has to have kosher food. We don't have that in Israel. I mean, hotels mostly have kosher food, but not all of them, and, and it's not by law.  This was, like, clear, we want these people to feel comfortable. It was truly amazing. I've never, I could never imagine that I would come to a country where we didn't have any relations until today, and suddenly feel very, very welcome. On every level, on the street, in restaurants. And that was quite amazing, and that was the result of us collaborating below the surface for many, many years. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Parity of esteem, yes? Suddenly. Eugene Kandel:   Yeah, they didn't feel they did exactly the important part when the UAE businessman or or Ambassador order you feel completely no chip on the shoulder whatsoever. They feel very proud of their heritage. They feel very proud of their achievements. They feel and you feel at the same level. They feel at the same level, just like you would with the Europeans. We always felt that there was something like when, when, Arab delegations, always tension. I don't know whether it was superiority or inferiority. I don't know. It doesn't matter, but it was always tension in here. I didn't feel any tension. Was like, want to do business, we want to learn from you, and you'll to learn from us. And it was just wow. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Same in Bahrain and Morocco? Eugene Kandel:   I haven't been to Bahrain and Morocco. I think Bahrain wants to do business. They were very even, sort of some of, we sent the delegation to Bahrain to talk about sort of Israeli technology and how to build an ecosystem in the same with Morocco. I think it's a bit different. I think it's a bit different because we didn't see much going on from from these two countries. Although Morocco is more advancing much faster than Bahrain. There are a lot of interesting proposals coming out of it.  There's a genuine desire there. In the last two years, of course, it was difficult for for anybody to do anything in those but interestingly, when almost no European airlines or American airlines were flying to us, Etihad and Emirates were flying to Israel. They were flying. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Past two years? Eugene Kandel:   Yeah, they would not stop. And you're just like, wow. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So would you say the Abraham Accords have had a significant impact on Israel's economy at all? Eugene Kandel:   I do not know. I mean, I don't have data on that by the sheer number. I mean, the the number of Israeli tourists Sue UAE, it's probably 10 or 20 to one to the vice versa. So we've been Israelis flooding UAE. In terms of investments, there are some technology investments. There's some, some more infrastructural investors, like they bought 20% of our gas field. There are collaborations between universities and research centers. So it's hard to measure, but you have to remember that there was a huge amount of trade and collaboration under the surface. So it surfaced. But that doesn't mean that there was an effect on the economy, just people suddenly saw it. So you don't know what the Delta was. If the same amount of business was suddenly coming out of Jordan, we would have seen, you know, big surge. So I'm not sure how much . . . I don't mean to say that there was no impact. I'm just saying that the impact was much more gradual, because there was so much already, right? But I'm sure that it is continuing, and the fact that these airlines were continuing to fly, indicates that there is a demand, and there's a business. Initially a lot of Israelis thought that there was, this was a money bag, and they would go there and try to raise money and not understanding culture, not understanding. That period is over. I mean, the Emiratis conveyed pretty clearly that they not. They're very sophisticated investors. They know how to evaluate so they do when they make investments, these investments make sense, rather than just because you wanted to get some money from somebody. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Well, thank you so much.  Eugene Kandel:   Thank you.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   If you missed our last episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with AJC's Director of Congressional Affairs Jessica Bernton. We spoke shortly after receiving the news that a deal had been reached and the hostages from the October 7 Hamas terror attack might finally come home after two years in captivity. That dream was partially realized last week when all the living hostages returned and the wait began for those who were murdered.  

"Since before he was President, he [Trump] has made it clear that this is a priority, and he has instructed his team to work on this issue day in and day out . . . " More than two years after the October 7 massacre, Hamas has agreed to return the 48 hostages still in Gaza under the U.S.-brokered peace deal. Jessica Bernton, AJC's Director of Congressional Affairs, shares details of AJC's joint advocacy with the hostage families of returned hostages—how personal stories, bipartisan meetings with Congress and the White House, and coordinated delegations kept the issue at the forefront. She reflects on the emotional weight of this work, its impact on the U.S. administration, and the ongoing need to press policymakers to ensure that all hostages are safely returned. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Take Action: Elected Leaders: Demand Hamas Release the Hostages Key Resources: AJC's Efforts to Support the Hostages Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman:  More than two years after the October 7 massacre, the Hamas terror group has reportedly agreed at long last, to return the 48 hostages that remain in Gaza. With us now is Jessica Bernton, AJC's director of Congressional Affairs, who has been working with the families of hostages since day one to bring them all home. Jessica, welcome to People of the Pod. Jessica Bernton:  Thanks so much, Manya, it's a pleasure to be here.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  So you must be so relieved. I know you've been so immersed in all of this. When can we celebrate though? Is now too soon? Jessica Bernton:  Oh, what a great question. I would say, I have this cautious optimism at the moment. There have been many ups and downs. There have been starts and stops throughout these long months and now two years, but this one does feel different. I would say, you know, this is the most progress we've seen since the spring, and we have to continue to have hope.  We also cannot afford to let up the pressure until every single hostage is returned home. And so I would say we cannot exhale until everyone is returned. And once everybody is walking across the border, or the deceased are returned home for burial, that is when we can truly celebrate. Once every single person is returned. Manya Brachear Pashman:  You said it feels different? How? How does it feel different? Jessica Bernton:  You know, there's been a lot of pressure exerted in recent weeks. I'd say the US administration has stepped up their efforts as well, working with other countries, including partners across the world here. And a deal was signed.  And so I think a lot can happen, though, between this announcement and actually, again, when hostages are returned, or when the first phase begins, and both sides need to continue to adhere to each side of the agreement. But this really is the most progress that there has been in some time. Manya Brachear Pashman:  As I said in the introduction, you've been working since day one, bringing delegations to Washington to meet with members of Congress, meet with White House staff, including both President Biden and President Trump. What has happened most recently that might have made a difference here? Jessica Bernton:  I think the most important thing here is that the families as well as the returned hostages, because we've been so far down in this process that we were advocating for the release of certain hostages, and now those individuals have come to DC and have been traveling across the world to make sure that their voice is heard. And they're speaking up for those that they were held in captivity with, who don't have a voice at the moment.  And so it's been really incredible and emotional to have advocated, let's say, for somebody like the return of Keith Siegel or Doron Steinbrecher. And now we have joined them in going to the Hill, into these meetings, advocating for the return of every single hostage, and that's been really incredible.  But I think the most important thing here is that these conversations have continued. And keeping this issue at the forefront of everybody's minds. The American public, government officials, foreign officials, community leaders, ensuring that the hostages have not been forgotten has been our top priority here, and ensuring that this remains a foreign policy priority for the US government in particular.  And clearly it has paid off, because these hostages have been able to continue to tell their story, and we are where we are today, and hopefully this progress will continue. But it's been really incredible to see this, especially in the past couple months, as those who have been returned or released have now come to Washington, DC as well and are able to do this type of advocacy.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  You mentioned Keith Siegel, one of the American-Israeli hostages, who was released earlier this year. They've been able to talk about their experiences, former hostages have been able to talk about their experiences in captivity and share that with President Trump in a way that their loved ones who were advocating for their release could not. What have they revealed about their experience that their loved ones could not possibly have known? Jessica Bernton:  You know, I think it's one thing to read articles or, you know, hear about what happened to them, and then it's another thing to hear it firsthand. And I think hearing about the brutality and the heartbreak and everything that they suffered, as well as what they've shared publicly about who they were held with and the information that they've been able to also offer to families and hope that they've been able to give to the families who don't know the status of their loved one.  Again, it's one thing to read an article and it's another to be sitting in a room listening to these incredibly powerful, emotional, and moving stories. And I think, you know, having them be able to share this has been incredibly important, and I think very impactful. Manya Brachear Pashman:  Is there a particular story or experience that stands out in your mind, that perhaps someone shared with you first intimately, before they shared it publicly? One that really stands out. Jessica Bernton:  I think I'll share a little bit about Ilana Gritzewsky, because we've hosted her for delegations, and our CEO, Ted Deutch joined with her at a press conference on Capitol Hill on Tuesday, on the second anniversary of the October 7 attacks. And she was also on Capitol Hill earlier this year, testifying at the House Foreign Affairs Committee at a bipartisan round table there. And she was brutally kidnapped alongside her partner, Matan Zangauker, who's still being held captive.  And the words that have stuck with me about Ilana, and also sort of you know the story with her partner, Matan, is that she said she cannot heal until everyone has returned home, and the rest of the hostages who have come home also cannot heal until every single person has been returned. And I think that is something that we've heard time and time again, this process, you know, in order for them to grieve, to heal, to process. I don't think there will ever be getting back to a normal life, but as much as they can, it will begin once everybody is returned home. Manya Brachear Pashman:  Former hostages, families of hostages have met with President Trump. He's welcomed them into the Oval Office. It seems like President Trump has made this a personal mission of his to get the hostages home. Perhaps that's why we've finally seen success and a deal made. Why do you think that might be the case? What moved the needle finally? Jessica Bernton:  Yeah, I mean, I think since before he was President, he has made it clear that this is a priority, and he has instructed his team to work on this issue day in and day out, and to have this access to a president like this is very notable. And we've seen these incredibly powerful images of released hostages, returned hostages, and also family members of those who are still captive meeting in the Oval Office.  And one can only assume that this has to be a priority for the President here, he's shown his seriousness. And again, we've now ended up with this current deal, which hopefully can be seen to fruition and can be implemented all the way. But it does seem like this has taken on greater importance as the months have gone on this past year, and it's truly incredible. Manya Brachear Pashman:  Any final thoughts, Jessica, as we wait to see the hostages actually return and the various components of this deal come to fruition? Jessica Bernton:  Yeah, I think you know, again, going back to this cautious optimism, I saw a video posted online where there's several returned hostages and released hostages, as well as family members who are in town this week, they've been in town for the second anniversary, and have been doing different meetings and events this week in Washington, DC. And they were on the phone with the President last night, you know, expressing their gratitude. And I think again, that's a powerful symbol here.  But going back to your initial question, and, is it too early to celebrate? We need to be cautiously optimistic and keep the pressure on, and hopefully we really can be celebrating on Monday, if that's when everyone is returned. But AJC will not stop until everybody, every single hostage, has been returned, and that's when we will truly celebrate here. Manya Brachear Pashman:  Thank you so much, Jessica. Really appreciate you joining us, and may we see all of this materialize in the days to come.  Jessica Bernton:  Absolutely thank you, Manya.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  Prior to the High Holidays, we brought you five episodes of our limited podcast series, architects of peace, the story of the Abraham accords. Our final episode deals with the challenges presented by the Israel-Hamas war.  As we approach a potential end to that war, we are pressing pause on that episode to make sure we include any significant developments. Until then, People of the Pod will resume its regular weekly interviews. Stay tuned for the final episode of Architects of Peace.

On the sidelines of the UN General Assembly, AJC hosted a conversation with Jason Greenblatt, a key architect of the Abraham Accords, and former U.S. Ambassador to Israel Dan Shapiro. They discussed the challenges threatening regional stability, from unilateral moves on Palestinian statehood to political pressures within Israel, and underscored what's at stake—and what it will take—to expand the Abraham Accords and advance peace. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.  Episode lineup: Dan Shapiro (1:00) Jason Greenblatt (18:05) Full transcript: https://www.ajc.org/news/podcast/accords-of-tomorrow-architects-of-peace-episode-5 Resources: AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace - Tune in weekly for new episodes. AJC.org/AbrahamAccords - The Abraham Accords, Explained AJC.org/CNME - Find more on AJC's Center for a New Middle East Listen – AJC Podcasts: AJC.org/ForgottenExodus AJC.org/PeopleofthePod Follow Architects of Peace on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript: Manya Brachear Pashman: In September 2020, the world saw what had been years – decades – in the making: landmark peace agreements dubbed the Abraham Accords – normalizing relations between Israel and two Arabian Gulf states, the United Arab Emirates and the Kingdom of Bahrain. Later, in December, they were joined by the Kingdom of Morocco. Five years later, AJC is pulling back the curtain to meet key individuals who built the trust that led to these breakthroughs and turning the spotlight on some of the results. Introducing the Architects of Peace. On the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly in September, American Jewish Committee hosted conversations with former Middle East envoy Jason Greenblatt, a key architect of the Abraham Accords, and former U.S. Ambassador to Israel Dan Shapiro:. Both diplomats discussed the dangers threatening peace in the region, including some countries' unilateral calls for Palestinian statehood. They shared what's at stake and what it will take to expand the Abraham Accords and make progress toward peace in the region. We're including those conversations as part of our series.  AJC's Chief Strategy and Communications Officer Belle Yoeli starts us off with Ambassador Shapiro. Belle Yoeli:  Ambassador Shapiro, thank you so much for being with us. We're going to speak primarily about unilateral recognition of Palestinian statehood, but I, of course, want to ask you a couple of questions, because you have so much to share with us before we dive in.  First and foremost, as we've said, It's been almost two years, and at AJC, we're all about optimism and playing the long game, as you know, but it does feel like the challenges for the Jewish community and the state of Israel continue to build. And of course, the war looms very large. What is your analysis of the geopolitical horizon for the war in Gaza. Dan Shapiro:  First, thanks for having me. Thank you to American Jewish Committee and to Ted and everybody for all you do. Thank you, Ruby [Chen], and the families, for the fellowship that we can share with you in this goal. I'll just say it very simply, this war needs to end. The hostages need to come home. Hamas needs to be removed from power. And aid needs to surge into Gaza and move forward with a reconstruction of Gaza for Palestinians who prepare to live in peace with Israel. This is something that is overdue and needs to happen. I think there have been a number of missed opportunities along the way. I don't say this in a partisan way. I think President Trump has missed opportunities at the end of the first ceasefire, when the first ceasefire was allowed to expire after the Iran strike, something I strongly supported and felt was exactly the right thing to do. There was an opening to create a narrative to end the war. I think there have been other missed opportunities. And I don't say in a partisan way, because the administration I served in, the Biden administration, we made mistakes and we missed opportunities. So it can be shared. that responsibility.  But what I do think is that there is a new opportunity right now, and we saw it in President Trump's meeting with Arab leaders. It's going to take very significant, deft, and sustained diplomatic effort. He's got a good team, and they need to do the follow through now to hold the Arabs to their commitments on ensuring Hamas is removed from power, on ensuring that there's a security arrangement in Gaza that does not leave Israel vulnerable to any possibility of a renewal of hostilities against it. And of course, to get the hostages released. That's pressure on the Arabs. And of course, he's got a meeting coming up with Prime Minister Netanyahu, and I do think he's going to need to lean on Prime Minister Netanyahu to overcome the resistance that he has to deal with in his cabinet, from those who want to continue the war or who those who rule out any role of any kind for the Palestinian Authority in something that will follow in the day after in Gaza.  So there is a real opportunity here. Once the war is over, then we have an opportunity to get back on the road that we were on. Two years ago at this UN General Assembly, I was serving as the Biden administration's Senior Advisor on regional integration, the first State Department position to hold that, trying to follow through on the excellent work that Jason Greenblatt and Jared Kushner and, of course, President Trump did in the first term in achieving the Abraham Accords. And we were building out the Negev Forum. And in fact, at that UNGA meeting, we had planned the next ministerial meeting of the Negev Forum. It was to take place October 19 in Marrakesh. Obviously, no one ever heard about that summit. It didn't happen. But getting back on the road to strengthening and expanding the Abraham Accords, to getting Saudi Arabia to the table as a country that will normalize relations with Israel, to expanding regional forums like the Negev Forum. Those are all still within reach, but none of them are possible until the war ends, till the hostages are home, till Hamas is removed from power.  Belle Yoeli:  Absolutely. And we look forward to talking more about the day after, in our next segment, in a segment coming up. Ambassador, you just got back from Israel. Can you tell us about your experience, the mood, what's the climate like in Israel? And any insights from your meetings and time that you think should be top of mind for us? Dan Shapiro:  I think what was top of mind for almost every Israeli I spoke to was the hostages. I spent time in the hostage square in Tel Aviv, spent time with Ruby, spent time with other hostage families, and everywhere you go as everybody who spin their nose, you see the signs, you hear the anxiety. And it's getting deeper because of the time that people are worried is slipping away for, especially for those who are still alive, but for all of those hostages to be returned to their families, so deep, deep anxiety about it, and candidly, some anger, I think we just heard a little bit of it toward a government that they're not sure shares that as the highest priority. There's a lot of exhaustion. People are tired of multiple rounds of reserve duty, hundreds of days. Families stressed by that as well the concern that this could drag on with the new operation well into next year. It's allowed to continue. It's a lot of worry about Israel's increased isolation, and of course, that's part of the subject. We'll discuss how countries who have been friends of Israel, whether in the region or in Europe or elsewhere, are responding in more and more negative ways, and Israel, and all Israelis, even in their personal lives, are feeling that pinch. But there's also some, I guess, expectant hope that President Trump, who is popular in Israel, of course, will use his influence and his regional standing, which is quite significant, to put these pieces together. Maybe we're seeing that happening this week. And of course, there's some expectant hope, or at least expectant mood, about an election next year, which will bring about some kind of political change in Israel. No one knows exactly what that will look like, but people are getting ready for that. So Israelis are relentlessly forward, looking even in the depths of some degree of anxiety and despair, and so I was able to feel those glimmers as well. Belle Yoeli:  And relentlessly resilient, absolutely resilient. And we know that inspires us. Moving back to the piece on diplomatic isolation and the main piece of our conversation, obviously, at AJC, we've been intensely focused on many of the aspects that are concerning us, in terms of unfair treatment of countries towards Israel, but unilateral recognition of Palestinian state is probably the most concerning issue that we've been dealing with this week, and obviously has gotten a lot of attention in the media. So from your perspective, what is this really all about? Obviously, this, this has been on the table for a while. It's not the first time that countries have threatened to do this, but I think it is the first time we're time we're seeing France and other major countries now pushing this forward in this moment. Is this all about political pressure on Israel? Dan Shapiro:  Well, first, I'll say that I think it's a mistake. I think it's an ill advised set of initiatives by France, by Canada, Australia, UK and others. It will change almost it will change nothing on the ground. And so to that sense, it's a purely rhetorical step that changes nothing, and probably does little, if anything, to advance toward the stated goal of some sort of resolution of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And in many ways, it may actually set it back in part because of the way it appears to and certainly many Israelis understand it too. And I'm sorry to say, many Arabs understand it to reward Hamas. Hamas is celebrating it as an achievement of October 7, and that October 7 will find its place in the pantheon of the Palestinian Liberation story that should never be allowed to happen. So doing it this way, doing it without conditioning it on the release of hostages, on the disarming and removal of Hamas from Gaza, is a mistake. And of course, it tells Israelis that their very legitimate concerns about obviously the hostages, but also that some future Palestinian state, wherever and whatever form it might take, could become a threat to them from other parts, from parts of the West Bank, as it was from Gaza on October 7. And you cannot get to that goal unless you're willing to engage the Israeli public on those concerns, very legitimate concerns, and address them in a very forthright way.  So I think it's a mistake. I'm sure, to some degree, others have made this observation. It is motivated by some of the domestic political pressures that these leaders feel from their different constituencies, maybe their left, left wing constituencies, some right wing constituencies, and some immigrant constituencies. And so maybe they're responding to that. And I think that's, you know, leaders deal with those types of things. I think sometimes they make bad decisions in dealing with those types of pressures. I think that's the case here, but I it's also the case. I think it's just fair to say that in the absence of any Israeli Government articulated viable day after, plan for Gaza, something we were urged Israel to work with us on all the time. I was serving in the Biden administration, and I think the Trump administration has as well, but it's remained blurry. What does what is that vision of the day after? Not only when does it start, but what does it look like afterwards? And is it something that Arab States and European states can buy into and get behind and and put their influence to work to get Hamas out and to do a rebuild that meets the needs of both Israelis and Palestinians. There hasn't been that. And so that could have been a way of satisfying some of those domestic pressures, but it wasn't really available. And so I think some of the leaders turn to this ill advised move instead. Belle Yoeli:  So perhaps catering to domestic political concerns and wanting to take some sort of moral high ground on keeping peace alive, but beyond that, no real, practical or helpful outcomes, aside from setting back the cause of peace? Dan Shapiro:  I think it has limited practical effects. Fact, I think it does tell Israelis that much of the world has not internalized their legitimate concerns, and that they will be, you know, cautious at best for this. Everybody knows that there are many Israelis who have been long standing supporters of some kind of two state resolution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And post October 7, they've, they don't still hold that position, or at least they say, if it can happen, it's going to take a long time, it's going to look very different. And I think that actually is some a real practical takeaway, that if we are going to talk about some future establishment of a Palestinian state and some two state arrangement, certainly separation between Israelis and Palestinians, so they don't try to live intermixed in a way that they govern each other. I think that is that is desirable, but it's not necessarily going to look like two state outcomes that were envisioned in the Oslo period, in the 90s and the 2000s it's going to look different. It's going to take longer. And so that is something that I think we have to make sure is understood as people raise this initiative, that their goal is not the goal of 1993 it's going to have to look different, and it's going to have to take longer. Belle Yoeli:  So as more and more countries have sort of joined this, this move that we find to be unhelpful, obviously, a concern that we all have who are engaged in this work is that we've heard response, perhaps, from the Israelis, that there could be potential annexation of the West Bank, and that leads to this sort of very, very, even more concerning scenario that all of the work that you were discussing before, around the Abraham Accords, could freeze, or, perhaps even worse, collapse. What's your analysis on that scenario? How concerned should we be based on everything that you know now and if not that scenario? What else should we be thinking about? Dan Shapiro:  We should be concerned. I was actually in Israel, when the UAE issued their announcement about four weeks ago that annexation in the West Wing could be a red line, and I talked to a very senior UAE official and tried to understand what that means, and they aren't, weren't prepared to or say precisely what it means. It doesn't necessarily mean they're going to break off relations or end the Abraham Accords, but that they would have to respond, and there's a limited range of options for how one could respond, with moving ambassadors or limiting flights or reducing certain kinds of trade or other visits. Nothing good, nothing that would help propel forward the Abraham accords and that particular critical bilateral relationship in a way that we wanted to so I think there's risk. I think if the UAE would take that step, others would probably take similar steps. Egypt and Jordan have suggested there would be steps. So I think there's real risk there, and I think it's something that we should be concerned about, and we should counsel our Israeli friends not to go that route. There are other ways that they may respond. In fact, I think we've already seen the Trump administration, maybe as a proxy, make some kind of moves that try to balance the scales of these unilateral recognitions. But that particular one, with all of the weight that it carries about what how it limits options for future endpoints, I think would be very, very damaging. And I don't think I'm the only one. Just in the last hour and a half or so, President Trump, sitting in the Oval Office, said very publicly that he, I think you said, would not allow Netanyahu to do the Analyze annexation of the West Bank. I think previously, it was said by various people in the administration that it's really an Israeli decision, and that the United States is not going to tell them what to do. And that's perfectly fine as a public position, and maybe privately, you can say very clearly what you think is the right course, he's now said it very publicly. We'll see if he holds to that position. But he said it, and I think given the conversations he was having with Arab leaders earlier this week, given the meeting, he will have his fourth meeting. So it's obviously a very rich relationship with Prime Minister Netanyahu on Monday, I think it's clear what he believes is necessary to get to the end of this war and not leave us in a worse position for trying to get back on the road to his goals. His goals of expanding the Abraham accords his great achievement from the first term, getting Saudi Arabia to normalize relations, of course, getting hostages released and getting Arabs involved in the reconstruction of Gaza in a way that Gaza can never become the threat it was again on October 7, those are his goals. They'll be well served by the end of the war that I described earlier, and by avoiding this cycle that you're referencing. Belle Yoeli:  Putting aside the issue of unilateral recognition, I think we've seen in our work with our Israeli counterparts, sort of differences in the political establish. Around how important it is in thinking about the day after and seeing movement on the Palestinian issue. And we've seen from some that they perhaps make it out that it's not as important that the Palestinian having movement towards a political path. It's not necessarily a have to be front and center, while others seem to prioritize it. And I think in our work with Arab countries, it's very clear that there does have to be some tangible movement towards the political aspirations for the Palestinian for there to really be any future progress beyond the Abraham accords. What's your take? Dan Shapiro:  My take is that the Arab states have often had a kind of schizophrenic view about the Palestinian issue. It's not always been, maybe rarely been their highest priority. They've certainly had a lot of disagreements with and maybe negative assessments of Palestinian leaders, of course, Hamas, but even Palestinian Authority leaders. And so, you know, it's possible to ask the question, or it has been over time, you know, how high do they prioritize? It? Certainly those countries that stepped forward to join the Abraham accords said they were not going to let that issue prevent them from advancing their own interests by establishing these productive bilateral relations with Israel, having said that there's no question that Arab publics have been deeply, deeply affected by the war in Gaza, by the coverage they see they unfortunately, know very little about what happened on October 7, and they know a lot about Israeli strikes in Gaza, civilian casualties, humanitarian aid challenges, and so that affects public moods. Even in non democratic countries, leaders are attentive to the views of their publics, and so I think this is important to them. And every conversation that I took part in, and I know my colleagues in the Biden administration with Arab states about those day after arrangements that we wanted them to participate in, Arab security forces, trainers of Palestinian civil servants, reconstruction funding and so forth. They made very clear there were two things they were looking for. They were looking for a role for the Palestinian Authority, certainly with room to negotiate exactly what that role would be, but some foothold for the Palestinian Authority and improving and reforming Palestinian Authority, but to have them be connected to that day after arrangement in Gaza and a declared goal of some kind of Palestinian state in the future.  I think there was a lot of room in my experience, and I think it's probably still the case for flexibility on the timing, on the dimensions, on some of the characteristics of that outcome. And I think a lot of realism among some of these Arab leaders that we're not talking about tomorrow, and we're not talking about something that might have been imagined 20 or 30 years ago, but they still hold very clearly to those two positions as essentially conditions for their involvement in getting to getting this in. So I think we have to take it seriously. It sounds like President Trump heard that in his meeting with the Arab leaders on Tuesday. It sounds like he's taking it very seriously. Belle Yoeli:  I could ask many more questions, but I would get in trouble, and you've given us a lot to think about in a very short amount of time. Ambassador Shapiro, thank you so much for being with us. Dan Shapiro:  Thank you. Thank you everybody.  Manya Brachear Pashman: As you heard, Ambassador Shapiro served under President Obama. Now AJC's Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson speaks with Jason Greenblatt, who served under President Trump. But don't expect a counterpoint. Despite their political differences, these two men see eye to eye on quite a bit. Jason Isaacson: Jason first, thank you for the Abraham Accords. The work that you did changed the history of the Middle East. We are so full of admiration for the work of you and your team. Jared Kushner. Of course, President Trump, in changing the realities for Israel's relationship across the region and opening the door to the full integration of Israel across the region.  It's an unfinished work, but the work that you pioneered with the President, with Jared, with the whole team, has changed the perspective that Israel can now enjoy as it looks beyond the immediate borders, Jordan and Egypt, which has had relations with a quarter a century or more, to full integration in the region. And it's thanks to you that we actually are at this point today, even with all the challenges. So first, let me just begin this conversation by just thanking you for what you've done.  Jason Greenblatt: Thank you. Thank you, and Shana Tova to everybody, thank you for all that you do. Jason Isaacson: Thank you. So you were intimately involved in negotiations to reach normalization agreements between Israel and the Kingdom of Morocco, the Kingdom of Bahrain, of course, the United Arab Emirates. Can you take us behind the scenes of these negotiations? At what point during the first term of President Trump did this become a priority for the administration, and when did it seem that it might actually be a real possibility? Jason Greenblatt: So I have the benefit, of course, of looking backward, right? We didn't start out to create the Abraham Accords. We started out to create peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, which, as Dan knows, and so many people here know, including you Jason, seems to be an impossible task. But I would say that if I follow the breadcrumbs, my first meeting with Yousef Al Otaiba was a lunch, where it was the first time I actually ever met an Emirati, the first time I understood the psychology of the Emiratis. And others. I realized that the world had changed tremendously.  Everything that you heard about anti-Israel wasn't part of the conversation. I'll go so far as to say, when I went to the Arab League Summit that took place in Jordan in March of 2017 where I met every foreign minister. And I'm not going to tell you that I loved many of those meetings, or 85% of the conversation, where it wasn't exactly excited about Israel and what Israel stood for. There were so many things in those conversations that were said that gave me hope.  So it was multiple years of being in the White House and constantly trying to work toward that. But I want to go backwards for a second, and you touched on this in your speech, there are many parents and grandparents of the Abraham Accords, and AJC is one of those parents or grandparents. There are many people who work behind the scenes, Israeli diplomats and so many others. And I'm sure the Kingdom of Morocco, where the architecture was built for something like the Abraham Accords, everybody wanted regional peace and talked about Middle East peace. But we were fortunate, unfortunately for the Palestinians who left the table, which was a big mistake, I think, on their part, we're very fortunate to take all of that energy and all of that hard work and through a unique president, President Trump, actually create that architecture.  On a sad note, I wouldn't say that when I left the White House, I thought I'd be sitting here thinking, you know, five years out, I thought there'd be lots of countries that would already have signed and all the trips that I take to the Middle East, I thought would be much. Now they're easy for me, but we're in a very, very different place right now. I don't think I ever would have envisioned that. Jason Isaacson: Thank you. The administration has talked a great deal about expanding the Abraham Accords, of course, and as have we. Indeed, at an AJC program that we had in Washington in February with Special Envoy Steven Witkoff, he talked publicly for the first time about Lebanon and Syria joining the Accords. Obviously, with both of those countries, their new political situation presents new possibilities.  However, the ongoing war in Gaza, as we've been discussing with Ambassador Shapiro, and Israel's actions, including most recently striking Hamas in Doha, have further isolated Israel in the region and made an expansion of the accords harder to envision. At least, that's the way it seems. Given the current situation in the Middle East. Do you think the Trump administration can be successful in trying to broker new agreements, or do the current politics render that impossible in the short term? How hopeful are you? Jason Greenblatt: So I remain hopeful. First of all, I think that President Trump is a unique president because he's extremely close to the Israeli side, and he's very close to the Arab side. And he happens to have grandchildren who are both, right. I think, despite this terrible time that we're facing, despite hostage families, I mean, the terrible things that they have to live through and their loved ones are living it through right now, I still have hope. There's no conversation that I have in the Arab world that still doesn't want to see how those Abraham Accords can be expanded. Dan, you mentioned the Arab media. It's true, the Arab world has completely lost it when it comes to Israel, they don't see what I see, what I'm sure all of you see.  I'm no fan of Al Jazeera, but I will say that there are newspapers that I write for, like Arab News. And when I leave the breakfast room in a hotel in Riyadh and I look at the headlines of, not Al Jazeera, but even Arab News, I would say, Wow, what these people are listening to and reading, what they must think of us. And we're seeing it now play out on the world stage. But despite all that, and I take my kids to the Middle East all the time, we have dear friends in all of those countries, including very high level people. I've gotten some great Shana Tovas from very high level people. They want the future that was created by the Abraham Accords. How we get there at this particular moment is a big question mark. Jason Isaacson: So we touched on this a little bit in the earlier conversation with Dan Shapiro:. Your team during the first Trump administration was able to defer an Israeli proposal to annex a portion of the West Bank, thanks to obviously, the oped written by Ambassador Al Otaiba, and the very clear position that that government took, that Israel basically had a choice, normalization with the UAE or annexation. Once again, there is discussion now in Israel about annexation. Now the President, as Ambassador Shapiro just said, made a very dramatic statement just a couple of hours ago. How do you see this playing out? Do you think that annexation is really off the table now? And if it were not off the table, would it prevent the continuation of the agreements that were reached in 2020 and the expansion of those agreements to a wider integration of Israel in the region? Jason Greenblatt: To answer that, I think for those of you who are in the room, who don't know me well, you should understand my answer is coming from somebody who is on the right of politics, both in Israel and here. In fact, some of my Palestinian friends would say that sometimes I was Bibi's mouthpiece. But I agree with President Trump and what he said earlier today that Dan had pointed out, I don't think this is the time. I don't think it's the place. And I was part of the team that wrote the paperwork that would have allowed Israel to . . . you use the word annexation. I'll say, apply Israeli sovereignty. You'll use the word West Bank, I'll use Judea, Samaria.  Whatever the label is, it really doesn't matter. I don't think this is the time to do it. I think Israel has so many challenges right now, militarily, hostages, there's a million things going on, and the world has turned against Israel. I don't agree with those that are pushing Bibi. I don't know if it's Bibi himself, but I hope that Bibi could figure out a way to get out of that political space that he's in. And I think President Trump is making the right call. Jason Isaacson: So, I was speaking with Emirati diplomats a couple of days ago, who were giving me the sense that Israel hasn't gotten the message that the Palestinian issue is really important to Arab leaders. And we talked about this with Ambassador Shapiro earlier, that it's not just a rhetorical position adopted by Arab leaders. It actually is the genuine view of these Arab governments. Is that your sense as well that there needs to be something on the Palestinian front in order to advance the Abraham Accords, beyond the countries that we've established five years ago? Jason Greenblatt: You know, when I listened to Dan speak, and I told him this after his remarks, I'm always reminded that even though we disagree around the edges on certain things, if you did a Venn diagram, there would be a lot of overlap. I agree with how he sees the world. But I want to take it even back to when I was in the White House.  There are many times people said, Oh, the Arabs don't care about the Palestinians. They don't care. We could just do whatever we want. It's not true. They may care more about their own countries, right? They all have their visions, and it's important to them to advance their own visions. The Palestinian cause may not have been as important, but there is no way that they were going to abandon the Palestinians back then, and I don't think the UAE or the Kingdom of Morocco or others having entered into the Abraham Accords, abandoned the Palestinians. I think that was the wrong way to look at it, but they are certainly not going to abandon the Palestinians now. And I think that how Dan described it, which is there has to be some sort of game plan going forward. Whether you want to call it a state, which, I don't like that word, but we can't continue to live like this. I'm a grandfather now of three. I don't want my grandchildren fighting this fight. I really don't. Is there a solution?  Okay, there's a lot of space between what I said and reality, and I recognize that, but it's incumbent on all of us to keep trying to figure out, is there that solution? And it's going to include the Palestinians. I just want to close my answer with one thing that might seem odd to everybody. I'm not prone to quoting Saeb Erekat, who I disagreed with, the late Saeb Erekat, who I disagreed with just about on everything, but he used to tell me, Jason, the answer isn't in the Koran, it's not in the Torah, it's not in the Christian Bible, and the Israelis and the Palestinians are not leaving the space. So let's figure out a solution that we could all live with. So that's how I see it. Jason Isaacson: Thank you for that. One last question. I also heard in another conversation with other em righty diplomats the other day that the conflict isn't between Arabs and Israelis or Arabs and Jews, it's between moderates and extremists, and that the UAE is on the side of the moderates, and Morocco is on the side of the moderates, and the Kingdom of Bahrain is on the side of the moderates, and Israel is on the side of the moderates. And that's what we have to keep in our minds.   But let me also ask you something that we've been saying for 30 years across the region, which is, if you believe in the Palestinian cause, believe in rights for the Palestinians, you will advance that cause by engaging Israel, not by isolating Israel. Is that also part of the argument that your administration used five years ago? Jason Greenblatt: 100%. I think, I mean, I kept pushing for it and eventually they did it, for the Israelis and the Arabs to engage directly. Yes, the US plays a role, and they could play a moderating role. They could play somewhat of a coercive role. Nobody's going to force the Israelis, or frankly, even the Palestinians, to do anything they don't want to do, but getting them in the room so there are no missed signals, no missed expectations, I think, is the key part of this solution. I'm still hopeful, just to go back to your prior question, that they could get the right people in the room and somebody like President Trump, together with Emirati diplomats, Moroccan diplomats and others. They could talk rationally, and sanely, and appropriately, and we'll get somewhere good. Jason Isaacson: Ok, look ahead. We just marked the fifth anniversary of the Abraham Accords. Will there be a 10th Anniversary of the Abraham Accords, and will it look the same that it is now? Jason Greenblatt: No, I think it's going to be better. Yes, I think there's going to be a 10th Anniversary. I think there will be challenges. But maybe the best way I could answer this is, when the, I'll call it, the beeper incident in Lebanon happened. Okay, quite, quite a feat. I was in a conference room at a client of mine in the Middle East. Most of the room was filled with Lebanese Arabs, Christians and Muslims and some Druze. And it was unusual for everybody's phone to buzz at once, because I'm usually following the Israeli and American news. They're following Arab news. All the phones buzz. So somebody stopped talking, and we all picked up our phone to look at it. And I'm looking at the headlines thinking, oh, boy, am I in the wrong room, right?  And after a minute or so of people kind of catching their breath, understanding what happened, two or three of them said, wow, Jason. Like, that's incredible. Like, you know, I wasn't in the White House anymore, but they also want a different future, right? They are sick and tired of Lebanon being a failed state. Their kids are like my kids, and they're just . . . they're everything that they're building is for a different future, and I see that time and time again. So to go back to the UAE diplomats comment, which I hear all the time as well. It really is a fight of moderates against extremists. The extremists are loud and they're very bad. We know that, but we are so much better. So working together, I think we're going to get to somewhere great. Jason Isaacson: Very good. Okay. Final question. You can applaud, it's okay. Thank you for that. Out of the Abraham Accords have grown some regional cooperation agreements. I too, you too, IMEC, the India, Middle East, Europe, Economic corridor. Do you see that also, as part of the future, the creation of these other regional agreements, perhaps bringing in Japan and Korea and and other parts of the world into kind of expanding the Abraham Accords? In ways that are beneficial to many countries and also, at the same time, deepening the notion of Israelis, Israel's integration in the region. Jason Greenblatt: 100% and I know I think AJC has been very active on the IMEC front. People used to say, Oh, this is not an economic peace. It isn't an economic peace, but nor is economics not a very important part of peace. So all of these agreements, I encourage you to keep working toward them, because they will be needed. In fact, one of the fights that I used to have with Saeb Erekat and President Abbas all the time is, I know you're not an economic issue, but let's say we manage to make peace. What's going to happen the next day? You need an economic plan. Let's work on the economic plan. So whether it's IMEC or something else, just keep working at it. Go, you know, ignore the bad noise. The bad noise is here for a little while, unfortunately, but there will be a day after, and those economic agreements are what's going to be the glue that propels it forward. Jason Isaacson: Jason Greenblatt, really an honor to be with you again. Thank you.  Manya Brachear Pashman: In our next episode of the series, we will explore more of the opportunities and challenges presented by the Abraham Accords and who might be the next country to sign the landmark peace agreement.  Atara Lakritz is our producer. T.K. Broderick is our sound engineer. Special thanks to Jason Isaacson, Sean Savage, and the entire AJC team for making this series possible.  You can subscribe to Architects of Peace on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace. The views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC. You can reach us at [email protected]. If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to spread the word, and hop onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify to rate us and write a review to help more listeners find us. Music Credits: Middle East : ID: 279780040; Composer: Eric Sutherland Inspired Middle East: ID: 241884108; Composer: iCENTURY Mystical Middle East: ID: 212471911; Composer: Vicher

Tune into the fourth installment of AJC's latest limited podcast series, Architects of Peace. Go behind the scenes of the decades-long diplomacy and quiet negotiations that made the Abraham Accords possible, bringing Israel, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, and later Morocco, together in historic peace agreements.  From cockpits to kitchens to concert halls, the Abraham Accords are inspiring unexpected partnerships. In the fourth episode of AJC's limited series, four "partners of peace" share how these historic agreements are reshaping their lives and work. Hear from El Mehdi Boudra of the Mimouna Association on building people-to-people ties; producer Gili Masami on creating a groundbreaking Israeli–Emirati song; pilot Karim Taissir on flying between Casablanca and Tel Aviv while leading Symphionette, a Moroccan orchestra celebrating Andalusian music; and chef Gal Ben Moshe, the first Israeli chef to ever cook in Dubai on his dream of opening a restaurant in the UAE. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.  Episode lineup: El Mehdi Boudra (4:00) Gili Masami (11:10) Karim Taissir (16:14) Gal Ben Moshe (21:59) Read the transcript: https://www.ajc.org/news/podcast/partners-of-peace-architects-of-peace-episode-4 Resources: AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace - Tune in weekly for new episodes. The Abraham Accords, Explained AJC.org/CNME - Find more on AJC's Center for a New Middle East Listen – AJC Podcasts: The Forgotten Exodus  People of the Pod Follow Architects of Peace on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript: El Mehdi Boudra: All the stereotypes started like getting out and people want to meet with the other. They wanted to discover the beauty of the diversity of Israel. And this is unique in the region, where you have Arabs Muslims, Arab Christians, Druze, Beta Yisrael, Ashkenazi, Sephardic Jews, Jews from India, from all over the world. This beauty of diversity in Israel is very unique for our region. Manya Brachear Pashman: In September 2020, the world saw what had been years – decades – in the making: landmark peace agreements dubbed the Abraham Accords – normalizing relations between Israel and two Arabian Gulf states, the United Arab Emirates and the Kingdom of Bahrain. Later, in December, they were joined by the Kingdom of Morocco.  Five years later, AJC is pulling back the curtain to meet key individuals who built the trust that led to these breakthroughs and turning the spotlight on some of the results. Introducing: the Architects of Peace. ILTV correspondent: Well, hello, shalom, salaam. For the first time since the historic normalization deal between Israel and the UAE, an Israeli and an Emirati have teamed up to make music. [Ahlan Bik plays] The signs have been everywhere. On stages in Jerusalem and in recording studios in Abu Dhabi. [Camera sounds]. On a catwalk in Tel Aviv during Fashion Week and on the covers of Israeli and Arab magazines. [Kitchen sounds]. In the kitchens of gourmet restaurants where Israeli and Emirati chefs exchanged recipes. Just days after the announcement of the Abraham Accords, Emirati ruler Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan formally ended the UAE's nearly 50-year boycott of Israel. Though commerce and cooperation had taken place between the countries under the radar for years, the boycott's official end transformed the fields of water, renewable energy, health, cybersecurity, and tourism.  In 2023, Israel and the UAE signed a Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement (CEPA) to advance economic cooperation, and by 2024, commerce between the UAE and Israel grew to $3.2 billion. Trade between Bahrain and Israel surged 740% in one year. As one of the world's most water-stressed countries, Bahrain's Electrical and Water Authority signed an agreement to acquire water desalination technology from Israel's national water company [Mekorot].  Signs of collaboration between Israeli and Arab artists also began to emerge. It was as if a creative energy had been unlocked and a longing to collaborate finally had the freedom to fly. [Airplane take off sounds]. And by the way, people had the freedom to fly too, as commercial airlines sent jets back and forth between Tel Aviv, Casablanca, Abu Dhabi, and Manama.  A gigantic step forward for countries that once did not allow long distance calls to Israel, let alone vacations to the Jewish state. At long last, Israelis, Moroccans, Emiratis, and Bahrainis could finally satisfy their curiosity about one another. This episode features excerpts from four conversations. Not with diplomats or high-level senior officials, but ordinary citizens from the region who have seized opportunities made possible by the Abraham Accords to pursue unprecedented partnerships. For El Medhi Boudra, the Abraham Accords were a dream come true.  As a Muslim college student in 2007 at Al Akhawayn University in Ifrane, Morocco, he founded a group dedicated to preserving and teaching the Jewish heritage of his North African home. El Mehdi knew fostering conversations and friendships would be the only way to counter stereotypes and foster a genuine appreciation for all of Morocco's history, including its once-thriving Jewish community of more than 100,000. Five years later, El Mehdi's efforts flourished into a nonprofit called Mimouna, the name of a Moroccan tradition that falls on the day after Passover, when Jewish and Muslim families gather at each other's homes to enjoy cakes and sweets and celebrate the end of the Passover prohibitions. Together.   El Mehdi Boudra: Our work started in the campus to fill this gap between the old generation who talk with nostalgia about Moroccan Jews, and the young generation who don't know nothing about Moroccan Judaism. Then, in the beginning, we focused only on the preservation and educating and the promotion of Jewish heritage within campuses in Morocco. In 2011, we decided to organize the first conference on the Holocaust in the Arab world. Manya Brachear Pashman: So did the Abraham Accords make any difference in the work you were already doing? I mean, I know Mimouna was already a longtime partner with AJC.  El Mehdi Boudra: With Abraham Accords, we thought bigger. We brought young professionals from Morocco and Israel to work together in certain sectors on challenges that our regions are overcoming. Like environment, climate change, water scarcity and innovation, and bring the best minds that we have in Morocco and in Israel to work together. But we included also other participants from Emirates and Bahrain. This was the first one that we started with.  The second was with AJC. We invited also young professionals from United States and France, which was an opportunity to work globally. Because today, we cannot work alone. We need to borrow power from each other. If we have the same vision and the same values, we need to work together.  In Morocco, we say: one hand don't clap. We need both hands. And this is the strategy that we have been doing with AJC, to bring all the partners to make sure that we can succeed in this mission.  We had another people-to-people initiative. This one is with university students. It's called Youth for MENA. It's with an Israeli organization called Noar. And we try to take advantage of the Abraham Accords to make our work visible, impactful, to make the circle much bigger. Israel is a country that is part of this region. And we can have, Israel can offer good things to our region. It can fight against the challenges that we have in our region. And an Israeli is like an Iraqi. We can work all together and try to build a better future for our region at the end of the day. Manya Brachear Pashman: El Mehdi, when you started this initiative did you encounter pushback from other Moroccans? I mean, I understand the Accords lifted some of the restrictions and opened doors, but did it do anything to change attitudes? Or are there detractors still, to the same degree? El Mehdi Boudra: Before the Abraham Accords, it was more challenging to preserve Moroccan Jewish heritage in Morocco. It was easier. To educate about Holocaust. It was also OK. But to do activities with civil society in Israel, it was very challenging. Because, first of all, there is no embassies or offices between Morocco. Then to travel, there is no direct flights.  There is the stereotypes that people have about you going to Israel. With Abraham Accords, we could do that very freely. Everyone was going to Israel, and more than that, there was becoming like a tendency to go to Israel.  Moroccans, they started wanting to spend their vacation in Tel Aviv. They were asking us as an organization. We told them, we are not a tour guide, but we can help you. They wanted to travel to discover the country.  All the stereotypes started like getting out and people want to meet with other. They wanted to discover the beauty of the diversity of Israel. And this is unique in the region where you have  Arab Muslims, Arab Christians, Druze, Beta Israel, Ashkenazi, Sephardic Jews, Jews from India, from all over the world. This beauty of diversity in Israel is very unique for our region.  And it's not granted in this modern time, as you can see in the region. You can see what happened in Iraq, what's happening in Syria, for minorities. Then you know, this gave us hope, and we need this hope in these dark times. Manya Brachear Pashman: Hm, what do you mean? How does Israel's diversity provide hope for the rest of the Middle East North Africa (MENA) region?  El Mehdi Boudra: Since the MENA region lost its diversity, we lost a lot. It's not the Christians or the Yazidis or the Jews who left the MENA region who are in bad shape. It's the people of the MENA region who are in bad shape because those people, they immigrated to U.S., to Sweden, they have better lives. But who lost is those countries.  Then us as the majority Muslims in the region, we should reach out to those minorities. We should work closely today with all countries, including Israel, to build a better future for our region. There is no choice. And we should do it very soon, because nothing is granted in life.  And we should take this opportunity of the Abraham Accords as a real opportunity for everyone. It's not an opportunity for Israel or the people who want to have relation with Israel. It's an opportunity for everyone, from Yemen to Morocco. Manya Brachear Pashman: Morocco has had diplomatic relations with Israel in the past, right? Did you worry or do you still worry that the Abraham Accords will fall apart as a result of the Israel Hamas War? El Mehdi Boudra: Yes, yes, to tell you the truth, yes. After the 7th of October and things were going worse and worse. We said, the war will finish and it didn't finish. And I thought that probably with the tensions, the protest, will cut again the relations. But Morocco didn't cut those relations. Morocco strengthened those relations with Israel, and also spoke about the Palestinians' cause in the same time.  Which I'm really proud of my government's decisions to not cut those relations, and we hope to strengthen those relations, because now they are not going in a fast dynamic. We want to go back to the first time when things were going very fastly. When United States signed with the Emirates and Bahrain in September 2020, I was hoping that Morocco will be the first, because Morocco had strong relations with Israel. We had direct relations in the 90s and we cut those relations after the Second Intifada in 2000.  We lost those 21 years. But it's not [too] late now. We are working. The 7th of October happened. Morocco is still having relations with Israel. We are still having the Moroccan government and the Israeli government having strong relations together.  Of course, initiatives to people-to-people are less active because of the war. But you know, the war will finish very soon, we hope, and the hostages will go back to their homes, Inshallah, and we will get back to our lives. And this is the time for us as civil society to do stronger work and to make sure that we didn't lose those two years. [Ahlan Bik plays] Manya Brachear Pashman: Just weeks after the White House signing ceremony on September 15, 2020, Israeli music producer Gili Masami posted a music video on YouTube. The video featured a duet between a former winner of Israel's version of The Voice, Elkana Marziano, and Emirati singer Walid Aljasim.  The song's title? Ahlan Bik, an Arabic greeting translated as "Hello, Friend." In under three weeks, the video had garnered more than 1.1 million views. Gili Masami: When I saw Bibi Netanyahu and Trump sign this contract, the Abraham Accords, I said, 'Wow!' Because always my dream was to fly to Dubai. And when I saw this, I said, 'Oh, this is the time to make some project that I already know how to do.' So I thought to make the first historic collaboration between an Israeli singer and an Emirati singer.  We find this production company, and they say, OK. We did this historic collaboration. And the first thing it was that I invite the Emirati people to Israel. They came here. I take them to visit Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and then I get a call to meet in Gitix Technology Week in the World Trade Center in Dubai. Manya Brachear Pashman: Gitix. That's the Gulf Information Technology Exhibition, one of the world's largest annual tech summits, which met in Dubai that year and invited an Israeli delegation for the first time. Gili Masami: They tell me. 'Listen, your song, it was big in 200 countries, cover worldwide. We want you to make this show.' I said, OK. We came to Dubai, and then we understand that the production company is the family of Mohammed bin Zayed al Nayhan, the president of UAE. And now we understand why they agree.  The brother of Muhammad bin Zayed Al Nahyan, Sheik Issa Ben Zahid Al Nahyan, he had this production company. This singer, it's his singer. And we say, 'Wow, we get to this so high level, with the government of Dubai.' And then all the doors opened in Dubai.  And then it was the Corona. 200 countries around the world cover this story but we can't do shows because this Corona issue, but we still did it first. Manya Brachear Pashman: The song Ahlan Bik translates to "Hello, Friend." It was written by Israeli songwriter Doron Medalie. Can you tell our listeners what it's about? Gili Masami: The song Ahlan Bik, it's this song speak about Ibrihim. Because if we go to the Bible, they are cousins. They are cousins. And you know, because of that, we call this Abraham Accords, because of Avraham. And they are sons of Ishmael. Yishmael. And we are sons of Jacob.  So because of that, we are from back in the days. And this is the real cousins. Saudi Arabia, UAE, Morocco. They are the real ones. And this song speak about this connection. Manya Brachear Pashman: After Morocco joined the Abraham Accords, you also put together a collaboration between Elkana and Moroccan singer Sanaa Mohamed. But your connection to UAE continued. You actually moved to Dubai for a year and opened a production company there. I know you're back in Israel now, but have you kept in touch with people there?   Gili Masami: I have a lot of friends in UAE. A lot of friends. I have a production company in UAE too. But every time we have these problems with this war, so we can do nothing. I was taking a lot of groups to Dubai, making tours, parties, shows, and all this stuff, because this war. So we're still friends.  Manya Brachear Pashman: Given this war, do you ever go back and listen to the song Ahlan Bik for inspiration, for hope?  Gili Masami: I don't look about the thinking that way. These things. I know what I did, and this is enough for me. I did history. This is enough for me. I did [a] good thing. This is enough for me. I did the first collaboration, and this is enough for me. Manya Brachear Pashman: Moroccan pilot and music aficionado Karim Taissir also knows the power of music. In 2016, he reached out to Tom Cohen, the founder and conductor of the Jerusalem Orchestra East & West and invited him to Morocco to conduct Symphonyat, an orchestra of 40 musicians from around the world playing Jewish and Arab music from Morocco's past that often has been neglected.  Karim Taissir: In 2015 I contacted Tom via Facebook because of a story happening in Vietnam. I was in a bar. And this bar, the owner, tried to connect with people. And the concept was a YouTube session connected on the speaker of the bar, and they asked people to put some music on from their countries. So when he asked me, I put something played by Tom [Cohen], it was Moroccan music played by the orchestra of Tom. And people said, 'Wow.'  And I felt the impact of the music, in terms of even, like the ambassador role. So that gave me the idea. Back in Morocco, I contacted him. I told him, 'Listen, you are doing great music, especially when it comes to Moroccan music, but I want to do it in Morocco. So are you ready to collaborate? And you should tell me, what do you need to create an orchestra that do this, this excellency of music?'  And I don't know why he replied to my message, because, usually he got lots of message from people all over the world, but it was like that. So from that time, I start to look of musician, of all conditions, asked by Tom, and in 2016 in April, we did one week of rehearsals. This was a residence of musician in Casablanca by Royal Foundation Hiba. And this is how it starts. And from that time, we tried every year to organize concerts. Sometimes we succeed, and sometimes not. Manya Brachear Pashman: I asked this of El Mehdi too, since you were already doing this kind of bridge building Karim, did the Abraham Accords change anything for you? Karim Taissir: In '22 we did the great collaboration. It was a fusion between the two orchestras, under the conductor Tom Cohen in Timna desert [National Park], with the presence of many famous people, politician, and was around like more than 4,000 people, and the President Herzog himself was was there, and we had a little chat for that.  And even the program, it was about peace, since there was Moroccan music, Israeli music, Egyptian music, Greek music, Turkish music. And this was very nice, 18 musicians on the stage. Manya Brachear Pashman: Oh, wow. 18 musicians. You know, the number 18, of course, is very significant, meaningful for the Jewish tradition.  So, this was a combination of Israeli musicians, Moroccan musicians, playing music from across the region. Turkey, Greece, Egypt, Israel. What did that mean for you? In other words, what was the symbolism of that collaboration and of that choice of music? Karim Taissir: Listen, to be honest, it wasn't a surprise for me, the success of collaboration, since there was excellent artists from Israel and from Morocco. But more than that, the fact that Moroccan Muslims and other people with Israeli musicians, they work together every concert, rehearsals.  They became friends, and maybe it was the first time for some musicians, especially in Morocco. I'm not talking only about peace, happiness, between people. It's very easy in our case, because it's people to people. Manya Brachear Pashman: How have those friendships held up under the strain of the Israel-Hamas War? Karim Taissir: Since 7th October, me, for example, I'm still in touch with all musicians from Israel, not only musicians, all my friends from Israel to support. To support them, to ask if they are OK. And they appreciate, I guess, because I guess some of them feel even before they have friends from all over the world. But suddenly it's not the case for us, it's more than friendships, and if I don't care about them, which means it's not true friendships. And especially Tom. Tom is more than more than a brother. And we are looking forward very soon to perform in Israel, in Morocco, very soon. Manya Brachear Pashman: So I should clarify for listeners that Symphonyat is not your full-time job. Professionally you are a pilot for Royal Air Maroc. And a week after that concert in Timna National Park in March 2022, Royal Air Maroc launched direct flights between Casablanca and Tel Aviv. Those flights have been suspended during the war, but did you get to fly that route? Karim Taissir: They call me the Israeli guy since I like very much to be there. Because I was kind of ambassador since I was there before, I'm trying always to explain people, when you will be there, you will discover other things. Before 7th of October, I did many, many, many flights as captain, and now we're waiting, not only me, all my colleagues.  Because really, really–me, I've been in Israel since 2016–but all my colleagues, the first time, it was during those flights. And all of them had a really nice time. Not only by the beauty of the Tel Aviv city, but also they discover Israeli people. So we had really, really, very nice memories from that period, and hoping that very soon we will launch flight. Manya Brachear Pashman: Chef Gal Ben Moshe, the first Israeli chef to earn a Michelin Star for his restaurant in Berlin, remembers the day he got the call to speak at Gulfood 2021, a world food festival in Abu Dhabi. That call led to another call, then another, and then another.  Before he knew it, Chef Gal's three-day trip to the United Arab Emirates had blossomed into a 10-day series: of master classes, panel discussions, catered dinners, and an opportunity to open a restaurant in Dubai. Gal Ben Moshe: Like I said, it wasn't just one dinner, it wasn't just a visit. It's basically from February '21 to October '23 I think I've been more than six, eight times, in the Emirates. Like almost regularly cooking dinners, doing events, doing conferences. And I cooked in the Dubai Expo when it was there. I did the opening event of the Dubai Expo. And a lot of the things that I did there, again, I love the place. I love the people. I got connected to a lot of people that I really, truly miss. Manya Brachear Pashman: When we first connected, you told me that the Abraham Accords was one of your favorite topics. Why? Gal Ben Moshe: I always felt kind of like, connected to it, because I was the first Israeli chef to ever cook in Dubai. And one of the most influential times of my life, basically going there and being there throughout basically everything from the Abraham Accords up to October 7. To a degree that I was supposed to open a restaurant there on the first of November 2023 which, as you probably know, did not happen in the end.  And I love this place. And I love the idea of the Abraham Accords, and I've had a lot of beautiful moments there, and I've met a lot of amazing people there. And, in a way, talking about it is kind of me missing my friends less. Manya Brachear Pashman: So you were originally invited to speak at Gulfood. What topics did you cover and what was the reception like? Gal Ben Moshe: The journalist that interviewed me, he was a great guy, asked me, 'OK, so, like, where do you want to cook next?' And I said, 'If you would ask me six months ago, I would say that I would love to cook in Dubai, but it's not possible.' So having this happened, like, anything can happen, right? Like, if you would tell me in June 2020 that I would be cooking in Dubai in February 2021, I'm not sure I was going to believe you. It was very secretive, very fast, very surprising. And I said, 'Yeah, you know, I would love to cook in Damascus and Beirut, because it's two places that are basically very influential in the culture of what is the Pan-Arabic kitchen of the Levant. So a lot of the food influence, major culinary influence, comes from basically Aleppo, Damascus and Beirut. Basically, this area is the strongest influence on food. A lot of Jordanians are probably going to be insulted by me saying this, but this is very this is like culinary Mecca, in my opinion.'  And I said it, and somebody from the audience shouted: 'I'm from Beirut! You can stay at my place!' And I was like, it's just amazing. And the funny thing is, and I always talk about it is, you know, I talk about my vegetable suppliers in Berlin and everything in the Syrian chefs and Palestinian chefs and Lebanese chefs that I met in the Emirates that became friends of mine. And I really have this thing as like, I'm gonna say it is that we have so much in common. It's crazy how much we have in common.  You know, we have this war for the past two years with basically everyone around us. But I think that when we take this thing out of context, out of the politics, out of the region, out of this border dispute or religious dispute, or whatever it is, and we meet each other in different country. We have so much in common, and sometimes, I dare say, more than we have in common with ourselves as an Israeli society. And it's crazy how easy it is for me to strike a conversation and get friendly with the Lebanese or with a Palestinian or with the Syrian if I meet them in Berlin or in Dubai or in New York or in London. Manya Brachear Pashman: I should clarify, you run restaurants in Tel Aviv, but the restaurant that earned a Michelin star in 2020 and held on to it for four years, was Prism in Berlin. Tel Aviv was going to be added to the Michelin Guide in December 2023, but that was put on hold after the start of the Israel-Hamas War. Did your time in the Emirates inspire recipes that perhaps landed on your menu at Prism? Gal Ben Moshe: I was approached by a local journalist that wrote cookbooks and he did a special edition cookbook for 50 years for the Emirates. And he wanted me to contribute a recipe. And I did a dish that ended up being a Prism signature dish for a while, of Camel tartar with caviar, quail yolk, grilled onion, and it was served in this buckwheat tortelet. And at the time, it's a concept dish. So basically, the story is this whole story of Dubai. So you have the camel and the caviar, so between the desert and the sea. And then you have the camel, which basically is the nomadic background of Dubai, with the Bedouin culture and everything, and the caviar, which is this luxurious, futuristic–what Dubai is today. And it was really a dish about the Emirates. And I was invited to cook it afterwards in a state dinner, like with very high-end hotel with very high-end guests.  And basically the chef of the hotel, who's a great guy, is like, sending, writing me an email, like, I'm not going to serve camel. I'm not going to serve camel in this meal. And I was like, but it's the whole story. It's the whole thing. He's like, but what's wrong with Wagyu beef? It's like, we're in Dubai. Wagyu beef is very Dubai. And I was like, not in the way that the camel is in that story. Listen, for a chef working there, it's a playground, it's heaven. People there are super curious about food. They're open-minded. And there's great food there. There's a great food scene there, great chefs working there. I think some of the best restaurants in the world are right now there, and it was amazing. Manya Brachear Pashman: There have been other Israeli chefs who opened their restaurants in Dubai before October 7. I know Chef Eyal Shani opened with North Miznon in a Hilton hotel in Dubai. You recently closed Prism, which really was a mom and pop place in Berlin, and you've now opened a hotel restaurant in Prague. Would you still consider opening a kitchen in Dubai? Gal Ben Moshe: I have not given up on the Emirates in any way. Like I've said, I love it there. I love the people there. I love the atmosphere there. I love the idea of being there. I would say that there is complexities, and I understand much better now, in hindsight of these two years. Of why, basically, October 7 meant that much. I live in Berlin for 13 years, and I work with my vegetable suppliers for the past, I would say nine or eight years. They're Palestinians and Syrians and Lebanese and everything.  And even though October 7 happened and everything that's happened afterwards, we're still very close, and I would still define our relationship as very friendly and very positive. The one thing is that, I don't know, but I think it's because we know each other from before. And I don't know if they would have taken the business of an Israeli chef after October 7. So having known me and that I'm not a symbol for them, but I am an individual.  For them it is easier because we're friends, like we worked together, let's say for five years before October 7. It's not going to change our relationship just because October 7 happened. But I think what I do understand is that sometimes our place in the world is different when it comes to becoming symbols. And there are people who don't know me and don't know who I am or what my opinions are, how I view the world, and then I become just a symbol of being an Israeli chef. And then it's you are this, and nothing you can say at that moment changes it.  So I don't think that me opening a restaurant in Dubai before October 7 was a problem. I do understand that an Israeli chef opening a restaurant in Dubai after October 7 was not necessarily a good thing. I can understand how it's perceived as, in the symbolism kind of way, not a good thing. So I think basically, when this war is over, I think that the friendship is there. I think the connection is there. I think the mutual respect and admiration is there. And I think that there is no reason that it can't grow even further. Manya Brachear Pashman: In our next episode, expected to air after the High Holidays, we discuss how the Abraham Accords have held during one of Israel's most challenging times and posit which Arab countries might be next to join the historic pact.  Atara Lakritz is our producer. T.K. Broderick is our sound engineer. Special thanks to Jason Isaacson, Sean Savage, and the entire AJC team for making this series possible.  You can subscribe to Architects of Peace on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace. The views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC. You can reach us at [email protected]. If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to spread the word, and hop onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify to rate us and write a review to help more listeners find us. Music Credits: Middle East : ID: 279780040; Composer: Eric Sutherland אלקנה מרציאנו & Waleed Aljasim - אהלן ביכ | Elkana Marziano AHALAN bik أهلاً بيك Moroccan Suite: Item ID: 125557642; Composer: umberto sangiovanni Medley Ana Glibi Biddi Kwitou / Ma Nebra - Symphonyat with Sanaa Marahati - Casablanca - 2022 Middle East: Item ID: 297982529; Composer: Aditya Mystical Middle East: ID: 212471911; Composer: Vicher  

Dive into the third episode of AJC's latest limited podcast series, Architects of Peace. Go behind the scenes of the decades-long diplomacy and quiet negotiations that made the Abraham Accords possible, bringing Israel, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, and later Morocco, together in historic peace agreements.  On September 15, 2020, the Abraham Accords were signed at the White House by President Trump, Prime Minister Netanyahu, and the foreign ministers of the UAE and Bahrain. In this third installment of AJC's limited series, AJC CEO Ted Deutch and Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson—who stood on the South Lawn that day—share their memories and insights five years later. Together, they reflect on how the Accords proved that peace is achievable when nations share strategic interests, build genuine relationships, and pursue the greater good. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.  Read the transcript: https://www.ajc.org/news/podcast/from-the-white-house-lawn-architects-of-peace-episode-3 Resources: AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace - Tune in weekly for new episodes. The Abraham Accords, Explained AJC.org/CNME - Find more on AJC's Center for a New Middle East Listen – AJC Podcasts: The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow Architects of Peace on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript: Ted Deutch: It was a beautiful day and there was this coming together, this recognition that this was such an historic moment. It's the kind of thing, frankly, that I remember having watched previously, when there were peace agreements signed and thinking that's something that I want to be a part of. And there I was looking around right in the middle of all of this, and so excited about where this could lead. Manya Brachear Pashman: In September 2020, the world saw what had been years, decades in the making, landmark peace agreements dubbed the Abraham Accords, normalizing relations between Israel and two Arabian Gulf States, the United Arab Emirates and the Kingdom of Bahrain. Later, in December, they were joined by the Kingdom of Morocco. Five years later, AJC is pulling back the curtain to meet key individuals who built the trust that led to these breakthroughs. Introducing: the Architects of Peace. Announcer: Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States. Accompanied by the Prime Minister of the State of Israel; His Highness the Minister of Foreign Affairs and International cooperation of the United Arab Emirates, and the Minister of the Foreign Affairs of the Kingdom of Bahrain.  Manya Brachear Pashman: The guests of honor framed by the South Portico of the White House were an unlikely threesome. Two Arab foreign ministers and the Prime Minister of Israel, there to sign a pair of peace agreements that would transform the Middle East.  Donald Trump: Thanks to the great courage of the leaders of these three countries, we take a major stride toward a future in which people of all faiths and backgrounds live together in peace and prosperity. There will be other countries very, very soon that will follow these great leaders. Manya Brachear Pashman: President Trump's team had achieved what was long thought impossible. After decades of pretending Israel did not exist until it solved its conflict with the Palestinians, Trump's team discovered that attitudes across the Arab region had shifted and after months of tense negotiations, an agreement had been brokered by a small circle of Washington insiders. On August 13, 2020, the United Arab Emirates agreed to become the first Arab state in a quarter century to normalize relations with Israel. Not since 1994 had Israel established diplomatic relations with an Arab country, when King Hussein of Jordan and Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin signed a treaty, ending the state of war that had existed between them since Israel's rebirth. A ceremony to celebrate and sign the historic deal was planned for the South Lawn of the White House on September 15, 2020. Before the signing ceremony took place, another nation agreed to sign as well: not too surprisingly the Kingdom of Bahrain.  After all, in June 2019, Bahrain had hosted the Peace to Prosperity summit, a two-day workshop where the Trump administration unveiled the economic portion of its peace plan – a 38-page prospectus that proposed ways for Palestinians and Arab countries to expand economic opportunities in cooperation with Israel.  In addition to Bahrain, Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE all participated in the summit. The Palestinians boycotted it, even as Trump's senior advisor Jared Kushner presented plans to help them. Jared Kushner: A lot of these investments people are unwilling to make because people don't want to put good money after bad money. They've seen in the past they've made these investments, they've tried to help out the Palestinian people, then all of a sudden there's some  conflict that breaks out and a lot of this infrastructure gets destroyed. So what we have here is very detailed plans and these are things we can phase in over time assuming there's a real ceasefire, a real peace and there's an opportunity for people to start making these investments. Manya Brachear Pashman: Now Israel, the UAE, and Bahrain would open embassies, exchange ambassadors, and cooperate on tourism, trade, health care, and regional security. The Accords not only permitted Israelis to enter the two Arab nations using their Israeli passports, it opened the door for Muslims to visit historic sites in Israel, pray at Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, the third holiest site in Islam, and finally satisfy their curiosity about the Jewish state. Before signing the accords, each leader delivered remarks. Here's Bahrain's Foreign Minister Abdullatif bin Rashid Al-Zayani. Abdullatif bin Rashid Al-Zayani: For too long, the Middle East has been set back by conflict and mistrust, causing untold destruction and thwarting the potential of generations of our best and brightest young people. Now, I'm convinced, we have the opportunity to change that. Manya Brachear Pashman: UAE's Minister of Foreign Affairs Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed Al Nahyan echoed that sentiment and also addressed accusations by Palestinian leadership that the countries had abandoned them. He made it clear that the accords bolstered the Emirates' support for the Palestinian people and their pursuit of an independent state. Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed Al Nahyan:  [speaking in Arabic] Manya Brachear Pashman: [translating Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed Al Nahyan] This new vision, he said, which is beginning to take shape as we meet today for the future of the region, full of youthful energy, is not a slogan that we raise for political gain as everyone looks forward to creating a more stable, prosperous, and secure future. This accord will enable us to continue to stand by the Palestinian people and realize their hopes for an independent state within a stable and prosperous region. Manya Brachear Pashman: The Truman Balcony, named for the first American president to recognize Israel's independence, served as the backdrop for a few iconic photographs. The officials then made their way down the stairs and took their seats at the table where they each signed three copies of the Abraham Accords in English, Hebrew, and Arabic. The brief ceremony combined formality and levity as the leaders helped translate for each other so someone didn't sign on the wrong dotted line. After that was settled, they turned the signed documents around to show the audience. When they all rose from their seats, Prime Minister Netanyahu paused. After the others put their portfolios down, he stood displaying his for a little while longer, taking a few more seconds to hold on to the magnitude of the moment. Benjamin Netanyahu: To all of Israel's friends in the Middle East, those who are with us today and those who will join us tomorrow, I say, 'As-salamu alaykum. Peace unto thee. Shalom.' And you have heard from the president that he is already lining up more and more countries. This is unimaginable a few years ago, but with resolve, determination, a fresh look at the way peace is done . . . The blessings of the peace we make today will be enormous, first, because this peace will eventually expand to include other Arab states, and ultimately, it can end the Arab Israeli conflict once and for all. [clapping] [Red alert sirens] Manya Brachear Pashman: But peace in Israel was and still is a distant reality as Palestinian leadership did not participate in the Accords, and, in fact, viewed it as a betrayal. As Netanyahu concluded his speech to the audience on the White House Lawn, thousands of miles away, Israel's Iron Dome missile defense system intercepted 15 rockets fired by terrorists in Gaza, at least one striking Israel's coastal city of Ashdod. Iran's regime condemned the agreement. But across most of the region and around the world, the revelation that decades of hostility could be set aside to try something new – a genuine pursuit of peace – inspired hope. Saudi journalists wrote op-eds in support of the UAE and Bahrain. Egypt and Oman praised the Abraham Accords for adding stability to the region. Germany, the United Kingdom, France, and Spain commended the monumental step. United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres welcomed the deal for paving the way toward a two-state solution. AJC's Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson was one of more than 200 domestic and foreign officials on the White House Lawn that day taking it all in. The guest list included members of Congress, embassy staff, religious leaders, and people like himself who worked behind the scenes – a cross section of people who had been part of a long history of relationship building and peacemaking in the Middle East for many years. Jason Isaacson: To see what was happening then this meeting of neighbors who could be friends. To see the warmth evident on that stage at the South Lawn of the White House, and then the conversations that were taking place in this vast assembly on the South Lawn. Converging at that moment to mark the beginning of a development of a new Middle East. It was an exciting moment for me and for AJC and one that not only will I never forget but one that I am looking forward to reliving. Manya Brachear Pashman: Jason, of course, is talking about his confidence in the expansion of the Abraham Accords. Through his position at AJC he has attended several White House events marking milestones in the peace process. He had been seated on the South Lawn of the White House 27 years earlier to watch a similar scene unfold -- when Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Palestinian Leader Yasser Arafat met to sign the Oslo Accords with President Bill Clinton. Yitzhak Rabin: What we are doing today is more than signing an agreement. It is a revolution. Yesterday, a dream. Today, a commitment. The Israeli and the Palestinian peoples who fought each other for almost a century have agreed to move decisively on the path of dialogue, understanding, and cooperation. Manya Brachear Pashman: Brokered secretly by Norway, the Oslo Accords established mutual recognition between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization, which claimed to represent the Palestinian people. It also led to the creation of a Palestinian Authority for interim self-government and a phased Israeli withdrawal from parts of the West Bank and Gaza.  Jason Isaacson: I mean, 1993 was a tremendous breakthrough, and it was a breakthrough between the State of Israel and an organization that had been created to destroy Israel. And so it was a huge breakthrough to see the Israeli and Palestinian leaders agree to a process that would revolutionize that relationship, normalize that relationship, and set aside a very ugly history and chart a new path that was historic. Manya Brachear Pashman: While the Oslo Accords moved the Israelis and Palestinians toward a resolution, progress came to a halt two years later with the assassination of Prime Minister Rabin. In July 2000, President Clinton brought Arafat and then Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak to Camp David to continue discussions, but they could not agree.  In his autobiography, "My Life," President Clinton wrote that Arafat walked away from a Palestinian state, a mistake that Clinton took personally. When Arafat called him a great man, Clinton responded "I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you made me one." Arafat's decision also would prove fatal for both Israelis and Palestinians. By September, the Second Intifada – five years of violence, terror attacks, and suicide bombings – derailed any efforts toward peace. Jason says the Abraham Accords have more staying power than the Oslo Accords. That's clear five years later, especially after the October 7 Hamas terror attacks sparked a prolonged war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza. Two years into the war, the Abraham Accords have held. But Jason recalls feeling optimistic, even as he sat there again on the South Lawn. Jason Isaacson: It's a different kind of historic moment, maybe a little less breathtaking in the idea of two fierce antagonists, sort of laying down their arms and shaking hands uneasily, but shaking hands. Uneasily, but shaking hands. All those years later, in 2020, you had a state of Israel that had no history of conflict with the UAE or Bahrain. Countries with, with real economies, with real investment potential, with wise and well-advised leaders who would be in a position to implement plans that were being put together in the summer and fall of 2020. The Oslo Accords, you know, didn't provide that kind of built in infrastructure to advance peace. Manya Brachear Pashman: Jason pointed out that the only source of conflict among the signatories on the Abraham Accords was actually a point of mutual agreement – a frustration and desire to resolve the conflict with the Palestinians. UAE and Bahrain were part of the League of Arab States that had sworn in 2002 not to advance relations with Israel in the absence of a two-state solution.  But 18 years later, that had gone nowhere and leaders recognized that perhaps it would be more beneficial to the Palestinian cause if they at least engaged with Israel. Jason Isaacson: I had no fear, sitting in a folding chair on the White House Lawn on September 15, that this was going to evaporate. This seemed to be a natural progression. The region is increasingly sophisticated and increasingly plugged into the world, and recognizing that they have a lot of catching up to do to advance the welfare of their people. And that that catching up is going to require integrating with a very advanced country in their region that they have shunned for too long. This is a recognition that I am hearing across the region, not always spoken in those words, but it's clear that it will be of benefit to the region, to have Israel as a partner, rather than an isolated island that somehow is not a part of that region. Donald Trump: I want to thank all of the members of Congress for being here … Manya Brachear Pashman: AJC CEO Ted Deutch also was at the White House that day, not as AJC CEO but as a Congressman who served on the House Committee on Foreign Affairs and chaired its Subcommittee on the Middle East, North Africa and Global Counterterrorism. Ted Deutch: It was a beautiful day and there was this coming together, this recognition that this was such an historic moment and it's exactly the kind of thing, frankly, that  I remember having watched previously, when there were peace agreements signed and thinking that's something that I want to be a part of. And there I was looking around right in the middle of all of this, and so excited about where this could lead. Manya Brachear Pashman: Despite his congressional role, Ted learned about the deal along with the rest of the world when it was initially announced a month before the ceremony, though he did get a tip that something was in the pipeline that would change the course of the committee's work. Ted Deutch: I found out when I got a phone call from the Trump administration, someone who was a senior official who told me that there is big news that's coming, that the Middle East is never going to look the same, and that he couldn't share any other information. And we, of course, went into wild speculation mode about what that could be. And the Abraham Accords was the announcement, and it was as dramatic as he suggested. Manya Brachear Pashman: It was a small glimmer of light during an otherwise dark time. Remember, this was the summer and early fall of 2020. The COVID pandemic, for the most part, had shut down the world. People were not attending meetings, conferences, or parties. Even members of Congress were avoiding Capitol Hill and casting their votes from home. Ted Deutch: It was hard to make great strides in anything in the diplomatic field, because there weren't the kind of personal interactions taking place on a regular basis. It didn't have the atmosphere that was conducive to meaningful, deep, ongoing conversations about the future of the world. And that's really what this was about, and that's what was missing. And so here was this huge news that for the rest of the world, felt like it was out of the blue, that set in motion a whole series of steps in Congress about the way that our committee, the way we approach the region. That we could finally start talking about regional cooperation in ways that we couldn't before. Manya Brachear Pashman: The timing was especially auspicious as it boosted interest in a particular piece of legislation that had been in the works for a decade: the bipartisan Nita M. Lowey Middle East Partnership for Peace Act. Approved by Congress in December 2020, around the same time Morocco joined the Abraham Accords, the law allocated up to $250 million over five years for programs advancing peaceful coexistence between Israelis and Palestinians and supporting a sustainable two-state solution. Passed as part of a larger appropriations bill, it was the largest investment of any single country in Israeli-Palestinian civil society initiatives. Ted Deutch: Here we were having this conversation about increasing trade and increasing tourism and the countries working more closely together and being able to freely fly back and forth on a regular basis – something that we've seen as the tourism numbers have taken off. The trade has taken off. So it really changed what we do. Manya Brachear Pashman: The other thing Ted recalls about that day on the White House lawn was the bipartisan spirit in the air. Although his own committee didn't tend to divide along party lines, Congress had become quite polarized and partisan on just about everything else. On that day, just as there was no animus between Israelis and Arabs, there was none between Republicans and Democrats either. And Ted believes that's the way it always should be. Ted Deutch: It was a bipartisan stellium of support, because this was a really important moment for the region and for the world, and it's exactly the kind of moment where we should look for ways to work together. This issue had to do with the Middle East, but it was driven out of Washington. There's no doubt about that. It was driven out of the out of the Trump administration and the White House and that was, I think, a reminder of the kind of things that can happen in Washington, and that we need to always look for those opportunities and when any administration does the right thing, then they need to be given credit for it, whether elected officials are on the same side of the aisle or not. We were there as people who were committed to building a more peaceful and prosperous region, with all of the countries in the region, recognizing the contributions that Israel makes and can make as the region has expanded, and then thinking about all of the chances that we would have in the years ahead to build upon this in really positive ways. Manya Brachear Pashman: On that warm September day, it felt as if the Abraham Accords not only had the potential to heal a rift in the Middle East but also teach us some lessons here at home. Even if it was impossible to resolve every disagreement, the Abraham Accords proved that progress and peace are possible when there are shared strategic interests, relationships, and a shared concern for the greater good.   Ted Deutch: I hope that as we celebrate this 5th anniversary, that in this instance we allow ourselves to do just that. I mean, this is a celebratory moment, and I hope that we can leave politics out of this. And I hope that we're able to just spend a moment thinking about what's been achieved during these five years, and how much all of us, by working together, will be able to achieve, not just for Israel, but for the region, in the best interest of the United States and in so doing, ultimately, for the world. That's what this moment offers. Manya Brachear Pashman: In the next episode, we meet Israelis and Arabs who embraced the spirit of the Abraham Accords and seized unprecedented opportunities to collaborate. Atara Lakritz is our producer. T.K. Broderick is our sound engineer. Special thanks to Jason Isaacson, Sean Savage, and the entire AJC team for making this series possible.  You can subscribe to Architects of Peace on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace.  The views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC.  You can reach us at [email protected]. If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to spread the word, and hop onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify to rate us and write a review to help more listeners find us.

Tune into the second episode of AJC's newest limited podcast series, Architects of Peace. Go behind the scenes of the decades-long diplomacy and quiet negotiations that made the Abraham Accords possible, bringing Israel, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, and later Morocco, together in historic peace agreements.  Former U.S. Ambassador to Israel David Friedman, U.S. Army General Miguel Correa, and AJC Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson unpack the first Trump administration's Middle East strategy, share behind-the-scenes efforts to engage key regional players, and reveal what unfolded inside the White House in the crucial weeks before the Abraham Accords signing. Full transcript: https://www.ajc.org/news/podcast/behind-the-breakthrough-architects-of-peace-episode-2 Resources: AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace - Tune in weekly for new episodes. AJC.org/AbrahamAccords - The Abraham Accords, Explained AJC.org/CNME - Find more on AJC's Center for a New Middle East Listen – AJC Podcasts: AJC.org/ForgottenExodus AJC.org/PeopleofthePod Follow Architects of Peace on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript: Donald Trump: I think we're going to make a deal. It might be a bigger and better deal than people in this room even understand. Manya Brachear Pashman: In September 2020, the world saw what had been years – decades – in the making: landmark peace agreements dubbed the Abraham Accords -- normalizing relations between Israel and two Arabian Gulf states, the United Arab Emirates and the Kingdom of Bahrain. Later, in December, they were joined by the Kingdom of Morocco. Five years later, AJC is pulling back the curtain to meet key individuals who built the trust that led to these breakthroughs. Introducing: the Architects of Peace. Shortly after he was elected in 2016 and before he took office, President Donald Trump nominated his company's former bankruptcy attorney David Friedman to serve as U.S. Ambassador to Israel. He gave Friedman two simple tasks.  Task No. 1? Build peace across the Middle East by normalizing relations between Israel and its Arab neighbors. Task No. 2? Solve the Israeli Palestinian conflict that a half dozen previous White House residents had failed to fix.  After all, according to conventional wisdom, the first task could not happen before the second. The future of cooperation between Israel and 20-plus other Arab countries hinged on peace between the Israelis and Palestinians.  Here's former Secretary of State John Kerry. John Kerry: There will be no advance and separate peace with the Arab world without the Palestinian process and Palestinian peace. Everybody needs to understand that. Manya Brachear Pashman: Ambassador Friedman disagreed with this conventional wisdom. David Friedman: We were told initially by most countries that the road to peace began with the Palestinians. This was a hypothesis that I rejected internally, but I thought: 'OK, well, let's just play this out and see where this can go. And so, we spent a couple of years really working on what could be a plan that would work for Israel and the Palestinians. The Palestinians, you know, rejected discussions early on, but we had a lot of discussions with the Israelis. Manya Brachear Pashman: The son of a rabbi who grew up in Long Island, Ambassador Friedman had been active in pro-Israel organizations for decades, He had advised Trump on the importance of the U.S.-Israel bond during the 2016 presidential election and recommended nothing less than a radical overhaul of White House policy in the region. Not long after his Senate confirmation as ambassador, that overhaul commenced. In February 2017, President Trump invited Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to the White House – his first invitation to a foreign leader —  and a symbolic one. After their meeting, they held a joint press conference. Donald Trump: With this visit, the United States again reaffirms our unbreakable bond with our cherished ally Israel. The partnership between our two countries, built on our shared values. I think we're going to make a deal. It might be a bigger and better deal than people in this room even understand. That's a possibility. So, let's see what we do.  He doesn't sound too optimistic. But he's a good negotiator. Benjamin Netanyahu: That's the art of the deal. Manya Brachear Pashman: Nine months later, President Trump made another symbolic gesture -- recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital city and moving the American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. Though such a move had been approved by Congress in 1995, no president had ever acted upon it. When Trump's son-in-law, businessman, and senior White House advisor Jared Kushner opened conversations about that 'bigger and better deal,' Palestinians refused to participate, using the pretext of the Jerusalem decision to boycott the Trump administration. But that didn't stop Ambassador Friedman and others from engaging, not only with Israel, but with Arab countries about a new path forward. AJC's Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson, who has been building bridges in the region since the early '90s, recalls this strategy at the time. Jason Isaacson: It was very clear for many months, 2019 on into early 2020, that there was a team working under Jared Kushner in the White House that was going from country to country in the Gulf and North Africa, looking to make a deal, looking to make deals that would lead to normalization with Israel, would involve various benefits that the United States would be able to provide. But of course, the big benefit would be regional integration and a closer relationship with the United States. Manya Brachear Pashman: The pitch for a new path forward resonated in the United Arab Emirates, a Gulf country of 10 million residents, some 11% of whom are Emiratis — the rest expats and migrants from around the world. The UAE had designated 2019 the Year of Tolerance, an initiative aimed at promoting the country as a global capital for tolerance and respect between diverse cultures and nationalities. That year, the Emirates hosted a historic visit from Pope Francis, and 27 Israeli athletes competed in the 2019 Special Olympics World Games held in the capital city of Abu Dhabi.  The pitch also resonated in Bahrain. In June of that year, during a two-day workshop in Bahrain's capital city of Manama, the Trump administration began rolling out the results of its Middle East tour – the economic portion of its peace plan, titled "Peace to Prosperity." Jason Isaacson: The White House plan for Peace to Prosperity was a kind of an early set of ideas for Israeli Palestinian resolution that would result in a small, but functional Palestinian state, created in a way that would not require the displacement of Israelis in the West Bank, and that would involve large scale investment, mostly provided by other countries, mostly in the Gulf, but not only, also Europe, to advance the Palestinian economy, to integrate the Palestinian and Israelis' economies in a way that had never happened. And there was discussion that was taking place that all led up to the idea of a very fresh approach, a very new approach to the regional conflict. Manya Brachear Pashman: The 38-page prospectus set ambitious goals — turning the West Bank and Gaza into tourism destinations, doubling the amount of drinkable water there, tripling exports, earmarking $900 million to build hospitals and clinics. The Palestinians, angered by Trump's recognition of Jerusalem and viewing the Manama workshop as an attempt to normalize Arab-Israel ties while sidelining their national rights, boycotted the meeting and rejected the plan before ever seeing its details.  But the workshop's host Bahrain, as well as Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the Emirates participated, to varying degrees. Trump's team rolled out the rest of the plan in January 2020, including a map of land carved out for Palestinians and for Israel. The plan enabled Palestinians and Arab countries to expand economic opportunities. It enabled Israel to demonstrate that it was open to cooperation. It enabled the Trump administration to illustrate the opportunities missed if countries in the region continued to let Palestinian leadership call the shots. David Friedman: The expectation was not that the Palestinians would jump all over it. We were realistic about the possibility, but we did think it was important to show that Israel itself, under some circumstances, was willing to engage with the Palestinians with regard to a formula for peace that, you know, had an economic component, a geographic component, a governance component.  Manya Brachear Pashman: The Palestine Liberation Organization accused the United States of trying to sell a "mirage of economic prosperity." Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh criticized the Arab leaders attending the al-Manama conference, saying "The (Palestinian) people, who have been fighting for 100 years, did not commission anyone to concede or to bargain." But that's the thing. Arab leaders weren't there solely on behalf of the Palestinians. They wanted to learn how their own countries' citizens could enjoy peace and prosperity too. David Friedman: The real point of all this that got the Abraham Accords jump started was not the fact that the Palestinians embraced this, but more so that they rejected it in such a way that enabled these other countries to say: 'Look, guys, you know what? We can't be more pro-Palestinian than you.' Here you have, you know, the U.S. government putting on a table a proposal that gets you more than halfway there in terms of your stated goals and aspirations. Maybe you don't like all of it, that's fine, but you're never going to get everything you wanted anyway. And here's the first government in history that's willing to give you something tangible to talk about, and if you're not going to engage in something that they spent years working on, talking to everybody, trying to thread the needle as best they could. If you're not willing to talk to them about it, then don't ask us to fight your fight. There's only so far we can go. But we thought that putting this plan out on a table publicly would kind of smoke out a lot of positions that had historically been below the surface. And so, beginning right after the 28th of January of 2020 when we had that ceremony with the President's vision for peace, we began to really get serious engagement. Not from the Palestinians, who rejected it immediately, but from the countries in the region. And so that's how the Abraham Accords discussions really began in earnest. Manya Brachear Pashman: AJC had been saying for years that if Arab leaders truly wanted to foster stability in the region and help the Palestinians, engaging with Israel and opening channels of communication would give them the leverage to do so. Isolating Israel was not the answer. Nothing underscored that more than the COVID-19 pandemic, the worst global health crisis in a century. As everyone around the world donned N95 masks and went into self-imposed isolation, some governments in the Middle East concluded that isolating innovative countries like Israel was perhaps not the wisest or safest choice.  In May 2020, UAE Ambassador to the United Nations Lana Nusseibeh said as much during a virtual webinar hosted by AJC. Lana Nusseibeh: Of course, we've had Israeli medics participate in previous events in the UAE, that wouldn't be unusual. And I'm sure there's a lot of scope for collaboration. I don't think we would be opposed to it. Because I really think this public health space should be an unpoliticized space where we all try and pool our collective knowledge of this virus. Manya Brachear Pashman: A month later, UAE Minister of State for Foreign Affairs Dr. Anwar Gargash echoed that sentiment, during AJC Global Forum. Anwar Gargash: I think we can come to a point where we come to a given Israeli government and we say we disagree with you on this, we don't think it's a good idea. But at the same time there are areas, such as COVID, technology, and other things that we can actually work on together. Manya Brachear Pashman: Not surprisingly, the UAE was the first Arab country to begin negotiating with the White House to normalize relations with Israel. However, talks that summer hit a stalemate. Israel was moving forward with a plan to annex a significant portion of the West Bank, including Israeli settlements and the Jordan Valley. Even though President Trump himself had cautioned Prime Minister Netanyahu to hold off, Ambassador Friedman was not about to stop them.  David Friedman: I thought that the idea of Israel walking away from its biblical heartland. Anything that required Israel to make that commitment was something I couldn't support. I was so dead set against it. Israel cannot, as a price for normalization, as great as it is, as important as it is, Israel cannot agree to cede its biblical heartland. Manya Brachear Pashman: Not only was this personal for Ambassador Friedman, it was also a major incentive for Israel, included in the Peace to Prosperity plan. The ambassador didn't want to go back on his word and lose Israel's trust.  But annexation was a dealbreaker for the Emirates. In June, UAE's Ambassador to the U.S. Yousef Al Otaiba wrote a column speaking directly to the Israeli public. He explained that the UAE wanted diplomatic relations with Israel – it really did – but unilateral annexation of land that it considered still in dispute would be viewed as a breach of trust and undermine any and all progress toward normalization.  David Friedman: It was a kind of a tumultuous period, both internally within our own team and with others, about what exactly was going to happen as a result of that Peace to Prosperity Plan. And even if there was an agreement by the United States to support Israeli annexation, was this something that was better, at least in the short term? Manya Brachear Pashman: Otaiba's message got through, and the team ultimately agreed to suspend the annexation plan — not halt, but suspend — an intentionally temporary verb.  In addition to writing the column, Otaiba also recommended that a friend join the negotiations to help repair the trust deficit: General Miguel Correa, a U.S. Army General who had spent part of his childhood in the Middle East, served in the Persian Gulf War and as a peacekeeper maintaining the treaty between Israel and Egypt. General Correa had joined the National Security Council in March 2020 after serving as a defense attaché in Abu Dhabi. He had earned the respect of Emiratis, not as a dealmaker so much as a lifesaver, once orchestrating a secret rescue mission of wounded Emirati troops from inside Yemen. Among those troops, the nephew and son-in-law of Crown Prince Mohamed bin Zayed, the then-de facto ruler and now the current president of the UAE. Kushner and Friedman had never met Correa.  Miguel Correa: I didn't know them, and they didn't know me. No one else had any military experience on the team. I had a unique perspective of the Arab side of the equation.  And had relationships. So, it was a match made in heaven.  Jared, David Friedman, these guys obviously understood Israeli politics and understood the Israeli side, and somewhat Jewish American side. I could provide a different dynamic or a different view from the Arab side, as someone who's kind of grown up with this. It really got serious when the team came together and, and we could start working on real, concrete things. Manya Brachear Pashman: Months of negotiations had already unfolded. It was already late July, first of August, when General Correa became the last person to join the tiny circle of a half dozen negotiators – kept intentionally small to keep a lid on the conversations. It's hard to keep a secret in Washington. David Friedman: The secrecy here was very, very important, because to be honest with you, I think anything bigger than that group of six or seven, we would have put it in jeopardy. Manya Brachear Pashman: In this situation, leaks not only threatened the deal, they could threaten lives. Though word trickled out that a deal was in the works, no one guessed just how transformational the result might be. In General Correa's opinion, the UAE had the most to lose. Miguel Correa: That was the concern that, frankly, guys like me had, that, I hurt a nation of good people that is incredibly tolerant, that builds synagogues and churches and Sikh temples, or Hindu temples, and tolerance 101, that everybody can pray to who they would like to pray to.  And I was worried that all these extremists were going to come out of the woodwork and hurt that trajectory in the UAE, that was going to be a great nation with or without the normalization. But this ruler said: 'No, no, it's the right thing to do. Peace is the right thing to do.' Manya Brachear Pashman: General Correa actually had quite a few concerns. He didn't want the negotiations to be hijacked for political gain. He wanted leaders to have a security and public relations response in place before anything was announced. And the agreement? It lacked a name. Miguel Correa: A lot of it has to do with my military side. We love to name cool task forces, and things like that. And then I felt like: 'Hey, it has to be something that rolls off the tongue, that makes sense and that will help it, you know, with staying power. Let's do something that ties the people together. There was going to be a shock, a tectonic shock that was going to occur. From 1948, we're going to do a complete 180, and wow. So what do we do to take the wind away from the extremists? As a guy who's fought extremism, militant extremism, for most of his military career, I figured, hey, we've got to do what we can to frame this in a super positive manner. Manya Brachear Pashman: To the general's dismay, no one else shared his concern about what to call their project. A lot was happening in those last few weeks. Landing on a name – not a priority. On the morning of August 13, once all the details were hammered out, the team sat in the Oval Office waiting to brief the President before it was announced to the world. David Friedman: It came about 10 minutes before the end, we were all sitting around the Oval Office, waiting for this announcement about the UAE. And somebody, not me, said: 'Well, we need a name for this,' and I said, why? And they said, 'Well, you know, you have the Oslo Accords, you have the Camp David Accords. You need a name.' And I said, you know, Who's got an idea? And General Miguel Correa, he said: 'How about the Abraham Accords?' And I said: 'That's a great name.' And then we had a rush to call the Israelis and the Emiratis to make sure they were OK with it.  Five minutes later we're broadcasting to a few hundred million people this groundbreaking announcement. And the President looks at me and says, 'David, explain why you chose the Abraham Accords?' So that was when we explained what the name was, which I hadn't really thought of until that point. We just thought it was a good name.  So at that point I said, 'Well, you know, Abraham was the father of three great religions. He's referred to as Abraham in English, and Ibrahim in Arabic, and Avraham in Hebrew. And no single individual better exemplifies the opportunity and the benefits of unity among all peoples than Abraham.' And that was sort of on the fly how we got to the Abraham Accords. Manya Brachear Pashman: General Correa said he chose a name that would remind people of all faiths that what they have in common far outweighs what separates them. It was also important that the name be plural. Not the Abraham Accord. The Abraham Accords.  Even if only one country – the UAE – was signing on at that moment, there would be more to come. Indeed, Bahrain came on board within a month. Morocco joined in December.  Miguel Correa: I felt in my heart that this has to be more than one. As a guy that's been affected by this extremism and it allowed this, this craziness and that people decide who can get to know who and and I felt like, No, we can't allow this to be a one-shot deal. We have to prove that this is an avalanche. This could be sustained, and this is the way it should be. Everyone has to come into this one way or another. And it's not, by the way, saying that, hey, we're all going to walk lockstep with Israel. That's not the point. The point is that you have a conversation, the leaders can pick up the phone and have that conversation. So it has to be, has to be plural. By the way, this is the way that it was. This isn't new. This isn't like a crazy new concept. This is the way it was. It's not an introduction of Jews in this region, in society. This is a reintroduction. This is the way it's supposed to be. This is what's happened for thousands of years. So why are we allowing people to take us back, you know, thousands of years? Let's go back to the way things should be, and develop these relationships. It makes us all better. Manya Brachear Pashman: Next episode, we step out from behind the scenes and on to the South Lawn of the White House where leaders from the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Israel and the U.S. signed the Abraham Accords, while the world watched in awe. Atara Lakritz is our producer. T.K. Broderick is our sound engineer. Special thanks to Jason Isaacson, Sean Savage, and the entire AJC team for making this series possible.  You can subscribe to Architects of Peace on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace.  The views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC.  You can reach us at [email protected]. If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to spread the word, and hop onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify to rate us and write a review to help more listeners find us. Music Credits: Middle East : ID: 279780040; Composer: Eric Sutherland Frontiers: ID: 183925100; Publisher: Pond5 Publishing Beta (BMI); Composer: Pete Checkley (BMI) Meditative: ID: 115666358; Composer: DANIELYAN ASHOT MAKICHEVICH (IPI NAME #00855552512), UNITED STATES BMI Arabian: Item ID: 214336423; Composer: MusicForVideos Arabian Strings: ID: 72249988; Publisher: EITAN EPSTEIN; Composer: EITAN EPSTEIN Desert: Item ID: 220137401; Publisher: BFCMUSIC PROD.; Composer: Andrei Marchanka Middle East Violin: ID: 277189507; Composer: Andy Warner Arabic Ambient: ID: 186923328; Publisher: Victor Romanov; Composer: Victor Romanov Oriental: Item ID: 190860465; Publisher: Victor Romanov; Composer: Victor Romanov Mystical Middle East: ID: 212471911; Composer: Vicher