313. A Crime in the Digital Age - The Murder of Bianca Devins

On this episode, Payton and Garrett dive into the case of Bonnie Woodward. When her daughter runs away and suddenly goes missing, concern quickly turns into panic. But just as the search begins, Bonnie herself vanishes, leaving behind more questions than answers. Links: Netflix Video Every Monday @11am PST, 12pm MST, 2pm EST 1pm CST https://www.netflix.com/murderwithmyhusband  Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/murderwithmyhusband NEW MERCH LINK: https://mwmhshop.com Discount Codes: https://mailchi.mp/c6f48670aeac/oh-no-media-discount-codes Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/themwmh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/murderwithmyhusband/ Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@murderwithmyhusband Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/into-the-dark/id1662304327 Listen on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/36SDVKB2MEWpFGVs9kRgQ7?si=f5224c9fd99542a7 Case Sources: ABCNews.go.com - https://abcnews.go.com/US/killed-husbands-words-crack-decade-murder-missing-nurses/story?id=122348751 TheTelegraph.com - https://www.thetelegraph.com/news/article/bonnie-woodward-case-2020-facts-20351564.php GoodMorningAmerica.com - https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/news/story/killed-husbands-words-crack-decade-murder-missing-nurses-122348751 KSDK.com - https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/crime/bonnie-woodward-murder-man-sentenced-illinois/63-c0b2920d-f332-48e8-832b-39c0e205aca0 MyJournalCourier.com - https://www.myjournalcourier.com/news/article/Defendant-in-murder-case-told-wife-he-was-15128368.php Fox2Now.com - https://fox2now.com/news/illinois/jerseyville-man-sentenced-65-years-for-2010-cold-case-murder-testimony-from-suspects-son-proved-critical/ Medium.com - https://medium.com/@grantbjork92/illinois-missing-person-cold-case-ends-with-homicide-conviction-3dcee363c44f TheCinemaholic.com - https://thecinemaholic.com/bonnie-woodwards-murder-where-are-heather-woodward-and-roger-carroll-now/ UnionBulletin.com - https://www.union-bulletin.com/8-years-later-charges-filed-in-woman-s-disappearance-death/article_300fa467-0225-521b-ba4f-0a72fcc1aeb1.html Belleville News-Democrat - https://www.bnd.com/news/local/article209696309.html Pod.wave.co - https://pod.wave.co/podcast/2020/i-have-killed-for-you ABC.com - https://abc.com/episode/b499c793-9eda-4875-9b93-554edd573540/playlist/PL551127435 ILCourtsAudio - https://ilcourtsaudio.blob.core.windows.net/antilles-resources/resources/cdb9a4a2-bfb1-40c8-a6e5-cad2192b781a/4200491_R23.pdf Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Serial killers. Unsolved murders. Investigations that gripped America. If you think you know these cases, think again. America's Most Infamous Crimes is a Crime House original hosted by Katie Ring. Each week, we go deep on one of the most notorious true-crime cases in American history. Not the quick recap version, but the full story told across multiple episodes every Tuesday through Thursday. America’s Most Infamous Crimes breaks down: What happened: the crimes, the victims, and the evidence How investigators closed in: the breakthroughs, the dead ends, and the mistakes Why it still matters: the lasting impact on American law, culture, and justice From the serial killers who terrorized entire cities to the cold cases that still don't have answers, this is the podcast that takes you beyond the headlines and inside the investigation. New episodes drop every Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. America’s Infamous Crimes is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios. Listen wherever you get your podcasts: https://play.megaphone.fm/zmfgjuixswwivnuu_qsjgg Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this episode, Payton and Garrett explore the heartbreaking case of Bianca Devins, a 17-year-old whose life was tragically cut short in a crime that unfolded both in real life and across the internet. Links: Netflix Video Every Monday @11am PST, 12pm MST, 2pm EST 1pm CST https://www.netflix.com/murderwithmyhusband  Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/murderwithmyhusband NEW MERCH LINK: https://mwmhshop.com Discount Codes: https://mailchi.mp/c6f48670aeac/oh-no-media-discount-codes Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/themwmh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/murderwithmyhusband/ Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@murderwithmyhusband Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/into-the-dark/id1662304327 Listen on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/36SDVKB2MEWpFGVs9kRgQ7?si=f5224c9fd99542a7 Case Sources: BBC.com - https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49001706 USAToday.com - https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/07/17/bianca-devins-death-posted-instagram-thats-not-story/1748601001/ Syracuse.com - https://www.syracuse.com/crime/2020/02/more-horrific-details-come-out-in-bianca-devins-murder-that-was-shared-online-to-the-world.html LawAndCrime.com - https://lawandcrime.com/federal-court/judge-dismisses-lawsuit-against-da-who-allegedly-sent-sex-and-murder-videos-of-17-year-old-bianca-devins-to-the-media/ CourtListener.com - https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/60060872/1/estate-of-bianca-devins-v-oneida-county/ WKTV.com - https://www.wktv.com/archive/brandon-clark-sentenced-in-murder-of-17-year-old-bianca-devins/article_d1bdf090-7932-11ec-8d73-77f82ffcca9c.html CNN.com - https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/16/us/bianca-devins-killer-sentenced-trnd TheGuardian.com - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/17/bianca-devins-instagram-under-fire-over-shared-images-of-dead-teens-body WashingtonPost.com - https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/07/16/bianca-devins-killing-photos-were-posted-instagram-by-suspect-brandon-clark-police-say/ Rollingstone.com - https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/bianca-devins-murder-brandon-clark-trial-video-951548/ Wikipedia.org - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Bianca_Devins CBSNews.com - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bianca-devins-murder-violent-images-psychological-terrorism-48-hours/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this episode, Payton and Garrett explore the strange and tragic case of Benji Novack, a millionaire businessman with an obsession for Batman memorabilia. When he’s found brutally murdered in his hotel room, investigators must dig through a long list of suspects to uncover the truth. Links: Netflix Video Every Monday @11am PST, 12pm MST, 2pm EST 1pm CST https://www.netflix.com/murderwithmyhusband  Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/murderwithmyhusband NEW MERCH LINK: https://mwmhshop.com Discount Codes: https://mailchi.mp/c6f48670aeac/oh-no-media-discount-codes Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/themwmh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/murderwithmyhusband/ Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@murderwithmyhusband Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/into-the-dark/id1662304327 Listen on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/36SDVKB2MEWpFGVs9kRgQ7?si=f5224c9fd99542a7 Case Sources Oxygen.com - https://www.oxygen.com/dateline-unforgettable/crime-news/narcy-novack-cristobal-veliz-convicted-in-death-of-ben-novack NBCMiami.com - https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/hit-man-sentenced-to-more-than-17-years-in-prison-for-killings-of-florida-millionaire-ben-novack-jr-mother-bernice-novack/1928642/ Justice.gov - https://www.justice.gov/archive/usao/nys/pressreleases/December12/NovackVelizVerdictPR.php Wikipedia.com - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Bernice_and_Ben_Novack_Jr. ABCNews.go.com - https://abcnews.go.com/US/fontainebleau-family-murders-woman-charged-mother-laws-killing/story?id=13303941 CBSNews.com - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/crazy-love-who-murdered-miami-beach-hotel-heir-benji-novack/ Archives.FBI.gov - https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/newyork/press-releases/2011/manhattan-u.s.-attorney-charges-narcisa-novack-and-cristobal-veliz-with-the-murders-of-ben-and-bernice-novack PalmBeachPost.com - https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/crime/2012/06/05/a-once-mysterious-letter-surfaces/7462044007/ People.com - https://people.com/crime/ben-novack-jr-murder-wife-on-trial/ NYPost.com - https://nypost.com/2012/06/20/narcy-novak-convicted-in-2009-slaying-of-hotel-heir/ TMCNet.com - https://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2009/04/09/4118904.htm Murderpedia.org - https://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2009/04/09/4118904.htm CrimeLibrary.org - https://www.crimelibrary.org/notorious_murders/family/ben-novack-jr/just-there-on-business.html Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this episode, Payton and Garrett dive into the case of Steven Beard. When the wealthy retired man calls 911 claiming his stomach literally exploded, police are shocked to figure out what really happened. Links: Netflix Video Every Monday @11am PST, 12pm MST, 2pm EST 1pm CST https://www.netflix.com/murderwithmyhusband  Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/murderwithmyhusband NEW MERCH LINK: https://mwmhshop.com Discount Codes: https://mailchi.mp/c6f48670aeac/oh-no-media-discount-codes Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/themwmh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/murderwithmyhusband/ Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@murderwithmyhusband Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/into-the-dark/id1662304327 Listen on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/36SDVKB2MEWpFGVs9kRgQ7?si=f5224c9fd99542a7 Case Sources: ABCNews.go.com - https://abcnews.go.com/US/twin-daughters-recount-testifying-mother-deadly-alleged-love/story?id=93120585 CBSNews.com - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-family-friend-questioned-12-05-2003/ Medium.com - https://medium.com/@ringosayya/killed-by-wifes-secret-lesbian-lover-22b211773dca Yahoo.com - https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/where-tracey-tarlton-woman-shot-132400856.html GoodMorningAmerica.com - https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/amp/news/story/alleged-love-triangle-turn-deadly-wife-center-millionaire-93120519 AllThatsInteresting.com - https://allthatsinteresting.com/celeste-beard Bustle.com -  https://www.bustle.com/p/women-who-kills-celeste-beard-johnson-is-still-serving-a-life-sentence-for-the-murder-of-her-husband-16999991 CaseLaw.FindLaw.com - https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/tx-court-of-appeals/1175149.html Wikipedia.com - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celeste_Beard Murderpedia.org - https://murderpedia.org/female.B/b/beard-celeste-photos.htm Oxygen.com - https://www.oxygen.com/snapped-behind-bars/crime-news/celeste-beard-johnson-speaks-out-about-murder-conviction Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this episode, Garrett and Payton explore a brutal murder that shattered a quiet island paradise. As authorities rush to make arrests, doubts grow, as some believe the true killer might be free. Links Netflix Video Every Monday @11am PST, 12pm MST, 2pm EST 1pm CST https://www.netflix.com/murderwithmyhusband  Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/murderwithmyhusband NEW MERCH LINK: https://mwmhshop.com Discount Codes: https://mailchi.mp/c6f48670aeac/oh-no-media-discount-codes Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/themwmh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/murderwithmyhusband/ Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@murderwithmyhusband Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/into-the-dark/id1662304327 Listen on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/36SDVKB2MEWpFGVs9kRgQ7?si=f5224c9fd99542a7 Case Sources: Murder in Paradise by Lisa Pulitzer ABCNews.go.com - https://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=81315&page=1 NewsWeek.com - https://www.newsweek.com/fallout-caribbean-murder-155573 NYPost.com - https://nypost.com/2001/05/24/convicted-tortola-killer-im-innocent/ CNN.com - https://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/03/07/ctv.tortola.trial/ LATimes.com - https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-may-11-mn-62189-story.html CaseMine.com - https://www.casemine.com/judgement/in/5779fc13e561096c931319e1 CBSNews.com - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/part-ii-a-tropical-island-trial/ AlixKrista.com - https://www.alixkirsta.com/articles/mcmillen/index.htm Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this episode, Garrett and Payton examine the murder of Marcus Boyd, who was killed outside his own home. As investigators search for answers and come up empty, they make a decision no one saw coming. Links: Netflix Video Every Monday @11am PST, 12pm MST, 2pm EST 1pm CST https://www.netflix.com/murderwithmyhusband  Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/murderwithmyhusband NEW MERCH LINK: https://mwmhshop.com Discount Codes: https://mailchi.mp/c6f48670aeac/oh-no-media-discount-codes Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/themwmh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/murderwithmyhusband/ Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@murderwithmyhusband Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/into-the-dark/id1662304327 Listen on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/36SDVKB2MEWpFGVs9kRgQ7?si=f5224c9fd99542a7 Case Sources: PBS.org - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/missouri-judge-cites-actual-innocence-in-overturning-conviction-of-man-imprisoned-nearly-30-years STLPR.org - https://www.stlpr.org/law-order/2024-01-17/a-year-after-gaining-freedom-lamar-johnson-sues-over-his-time-in-prison BBC.com - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64645333 InnocenceProject.org - https://innocenceproject.org/take-action/ LathroGPM.com - https://www.lathropgpm.com/insights/client-exonerated-after-spending-nearly-30-years-in-prison/ Felony Murder Elimination Project - https://www.endfmrnow.org/no-compensation-available-from-state-to-exonerated-lamar-johnson GoFundMe.com - https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-lamar-johnson-after-wrongful-conviction People.com - https://people.com/mo-man-wrongfully-convicted-and-imprisoned-28-years-sues-st-louis-claims-officers-framed-him-8431962 Oxygen.com - https://www.oxygen.com/crime-time/lamar-johnson-innocent-marcus-boyd-murder-spend-24-years-prison-prosecutor-says KSDK.com - https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/local/lamar-johnson-and-his-daughter-speak-out-after-murder-conviction-vacated/63-6f1b0610-87ea-41d7-bf09-9a35f6e14635 KansasCity.com - https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article270471927.html TheCinemaholic.com - https://thecinemaholic.com/markus-boyd/ SpectrumLocalNew.com - https://spectrumlocalnews.com/mo/st-louis/news/2022/12/14/witness-who-helped-convict-man--testimony-still--haunts--him InjusticeWatch.org - https://www.injusticewatch.org/archive/2019/st-louis-man-prosecutors-say-is-innocent-remains-in-prison-waiting-for-court/ Colorado Law - https://lawreview.colorado.edu/print/volume-96/manufacturing-false-convictions-lies-and-the-corrupt-use-of-jailhouse-informants-russell-d-covey/ CBSNews.com - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lamar-johnson-marcus-boyd-murder-missouri-exonerated-48-hours/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this episode, Garrett and Payton dive into the case of Robin Lawrence, a woman found murdered in her home in a crime that left investigators with almost no leads and a mystery that lingered for decades. As time passed and technology evolved, a hidden piece of evidence quietly waited in the background, holding the potential to change everything. Links: Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/murderwithmyhusband Garretts BAGEL SHOP : https://www.instagram.com/ohnobagels/ Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/murderwithmyhusband NEW MERCH LINK: https://mwmhshop.com Discount Codes: https://mailchi.mp/c6f48670aeac/oh-no-media-discount-codes Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/themwmh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/murderwithmyhusband/ Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@murderwithmyhusband Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/into-the-dark/id1662304327 Listen on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/36SDVKB2MEWpFGVs9kRgQ7?si=f5224c9fd99542a7 Case Sources: CBSNews.com - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/stephen-smerk-new-york-robin-warr-lawrence-murder-virginia-cold-case-48-hours/ USAToday.com - https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2025/03/10/stephan-smerk-virginia-murder-robin-lawrence/82233382007/ NBCWashington.com - https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/after-killers-sentencing-30-years-of-unanswered-questions-come-to-end-for-1994-cold-case-victims-family/3862175/ CBS6Albany.com - https://cbs6albany.com/news/local/niskayuna-man-sentenced-to-70-years-for-1994-virginia-murder-featured-on-cbss-48-hours-robin-lawerence-stephan-smerk WJLA.com - https://wjla.com/news/local/this-man-will-pay-virginia-family-finds-closure-after-murderer-is-sentenced-to-life-cold-case-murder-guilty-conviction-killer-found-crime-dmv-investigation-forensics-fairfax-burke-case-robin-lawrence-death-stabbing-family-smerk TheIndependent.com - https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/crime/serial-killer-sentencing-robin-lawrence-b2716557.html AugustaFreePress.com - https://augustafreepress.com/news/the-boogeyman-chilling-confession-brings-end-to-northern-virginia-murder-case/ FFXNow.com - https://www.ffxnow.com/2025/03/07/former-army-soldier-sentenced-to-70-years-in-prison-for-1994-west-springfield-murder/ TMZ.com - https://www.tmz.com/2025/10/25/stephan-smerk-30-year-cold-case-murder-dna-arrested/ WUSA9.com - https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/crime/man-sentenced-for-1994-cold-case-murder-of-virginia-mother-life-in-prison/65-1b50f3a2-a6c8-4e30-98fb-1abfefb953ca WashingtonPost.com - https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2025/03/07/stephen-smerk-cold-case-sentencing-robin-lawrence/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode, Garrett and Payton explore the case of Patrick de la Cerda, a man living what seemed like a fairytale romance until his life was tragically cut short by a killer no one saw coming. Links: Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/murderwithmyhusband Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/murderwithmyhusband NEW MERCH LINK: https://mwmhshop.com Discount Codes: https://mailchi.mp/c6f48670aeac/oh-no-media-discount-codes Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/themwmh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/murderwithmyhusband/ Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@murderwithmyhusband Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/into-the-dark/id1662304327 Listen on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/36SDVKB2MEWpFGVs9kRgQ7?si=f5224c9fd99542a7 Case Sources: Oxygen.com - https://www.oxygen.com/a-plan-to-kill/crime-news/patrick-de-la-cerda-shot-to-death-at-florida-home News-JouralOnline.com - https://www.news-journalonline.com/story/news/courts/2021/05/29/man-convicted-murder-plan-slaying-romantic-rival-deltona/5243838001/ CaseLaw.FindLaw.com - https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/fl-district-court-of-appeal/2196501.html ThatsLife.com - https://www.thatslife.com.au/crime/deadly-delivery-killed-by-a-fake-postie/ TillManFuneralHome.com - https://www.tillmanfuneralhome.com/obituaries/5296709 CrimeAndCoffeeCouple.wordpress.com - https://crimeandcoffeecouple.wordpress.com/2024/10/06/the-murder-of-patrick-de-la-cerda/ ClickOrlando.com - https://www.clickorlando.com/news/2018/03/02/deltona-man-slain-in-attack-sparked-by-jealousy-sheriff-says/ DailyMail.com - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10200995/Florida-man-nearly-gets-away-murder-wife-girlfriend-meet-hospital-ICU-stay.html CBS.com - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/patrick-de-la-cerda-murder-gregory-bender-trash-48-hours/ A Plan to Kill Season 1 Episode 6 - https://www.peacocktv.com/watch/playback/vod/GMO_00000000506750_01/e5dccebe-1846-3a2f-9acb-1fbc994f950d?paused=true Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode, Garrett and Payton break down the chilling case of a TikTok personality whose online persona blurred into real life. What began as imitation of a fictional villain spiraled into obsession, control, and ultimately a brutal double homicide. Links: Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/murderwithmyhusband Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/murderwithmyhusband NEW MERCH LINK: https://mwmhshop.com Discount Codes: https://mailchi.mp/c6f48670aeac/oh-no-media-discount-codes Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/themwmh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/murderwithmyhusband/ Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@murderwithmyhusband Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/into-the-dark/id1662304327 Listen on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/36SDVKB2MEWpFGVs9kRgQ7?si=f5224c9fd99542a7 Case Sources:NBC San Diego - https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/san-diego-tik-tok-ali-abulaban-sentenced-murder/3552934/ SanDiego.gov -  https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/default/files/102521_update_on_double_homicide_in_east_village_high_rise.pdf CBS8.com - https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/crime/arraignment-double-homicide-suspect-in-downtown-san-diego-shooting/509-40cc1b5a-5de0-43f2-acf3-9cee5748e9c1 TimesOfSanDiego.com - https://timesofsandiego.com/crime/2024/05/20/mother-psychologist-testify-in-san-diego-tiktok-stars-double-murder-trial/#google_vignette NYPost.com - https://nypost.com/2024/09/12/us-news/tiktok-scarface-star-who-murdered-wife-and-her-lover-mockingly-claps-while-sentenced-to-life-in-prison/#! 10News.com - https://www.10news.com/news/local-news/san-diego-news/mother-psychologist-testify-in-jinnkid-trial-of-east-village-killings People.com - https://people.com/ali-abulaban-verdict-guilty-of-murdering-wife-and-her-male-friend-8655603 Oxygen.com - https://www.oxygen.com/crime-news/tiktok-star-murders-ali-abulaban-ana-sentence USA.Inquirer.net - https://usa.inquirer.net/156275/tiktok-star-sentenced-to-life-in-prison-for-killing-fil-am-wife EOnline.com - https://www.eonline.com/news/1307216/tiktok-star-ali-abulaban-pleads-not-guilty-to-double-murder-of-wife-and-male-victim RollingStone.com - https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/tiktok-murder-wife-ali-abulaban-trial-1290372/ Variety.com - https://variety.com/2024/film/news/tiktok-star-murders-audio-killing-50-cent-1236047494/ Tik Tok Star Murders - https://www.peacocktv.com/watch/playback/vod/GMO_00000000233437_02_HDSDR/406cadce-7c0a-30c5-bd61-5dc18313f8d4 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices