47. Beyond Science vs. Religion (w/ Patrick Barry)

Philosopher Zak Stein joins me to discuss the "the great post-postmodern project, the reconstruction of value itself," and get into the nuances of what his framework looks like as presented in his new co-authored book First Principles & First Values. What does it mean to say that value is both fundamental and relational? How does a metaphysics of value avoid premodern pitfalls (e.g., the myth of the given, a God's-eye view/view from nowhere, etc.)? What are the challenges posed by language when trying to track value across discontinuities in the complexity stack? Here we compare notes on our respective projects and try to clarify key points. 0:00 Introduction 1:58 Summary Overview of First Principles & First Values 7:35 The Project: A Post-Postmodern Reconstruction of Value 12:44 Is Positing Value as Fundamental a Premodern Move? 32:24 "Value": Avoiding Reification 39:11 Languaging the Reconstruction: Difficulties and Diversity 48:29 The Challenge and Importance of Modern Critique of Value 52:39 "Intimacy" or "Complexity"? Seeking Normative Terminology without Anthropomorphizing 1:03:07 Shifting the Paradigm: Translation or Equivocation? 1:06:25 Panpsychist vs. Emergentist Framings 1:10:26 Shifting Telos across Scales: E.g., Dissipative Structures 1:17:56 Value and Anti-Value 1:22:04 New God: Moving towards the Infinite Intimate 1:27:21 Building the Cathedral/Temple: Living with Sacred Purpose

Process thinker Jared Morningstar joins me to discuss the relationship of metamodernism to traditional forms of religion. How can engaging the traditional frame be done without losing hard-won gains in complexity and perspective-taking? Here Jared advocates for an open, flexible, and epistemically humble form of experimentation and participation in different religious modalities. We consider the role of 'causal opacity' in religious functionality and whether reflection is inherently harmful to generating emergent potential in religious contexts. We also explore the ways traditional faiths may be genuinely engaging with hyper-complex phenomena and how tradition-specific language can be helpful in extending faith into metamodernity. Finally, we discuss the role of plurality and singularity, the general and the particular, in what it means to engage religion from a metamodern perspective. 0:00 Introduction 1:34 Reaction vs. Reconstruction: Which Direction Is Calling? 10:50 Unseen Causes: Participatory Experimentation and Epistemic Humility 17:43 Breaking the Frame: Causation, Disenchantment, and Etic vs. Emic Perspectives 24:25 Moving In and Out of Tradition: Looking Back or Going Back? 35:24 Superstition or Super-Complexity? Parsing Tradition's Relationship with Hyperobjects 50:03 Beyond Perennialism: Religious Pluralism and Traditional Particularity 1:03:09 Living the Openness 1:10:59 Orienting Value in the Uncertainty 1:18:46 Integrating the General and the Particular: Heading Out and Coming Home 1:23:33 Conclusion

Integrative thinker Layman Pascal joins me to talk about the meaning of "God" from a metamodern perspective. How does thinking in terms of "surplus cohesion" point us to a helpful way of relating to all the meanings of the term? Why and when is a 2nd person relationship with Reality warranted? Who is this Face in the Universe summoning us to greater communion and transcendence? How do we communicate about all this across the various memetic sensemaking structures of culture (traditional, modern, postmodern metamodern)? Finally, what can folks expect about the upcoming metamodern spirituality gathering on the topic, which will be hosted at Sky Meadow in May and led by Layman? 0:00 Introduction 1:21 Layman's "Surplus Cohesion" Framework 4:48 God as Ultimate Reality in the 2nd Person 9:52 The Face of the Universe: Seeking the 2nd Person in the Complexity Stack 16:27 Some Framing: Reality as Dynamic Becoming, Not Static Being 21:36 Reflecting on the Alpha and the Omega: Problematizing the "Creator" Image 27:46 But Is This Still God? Communicating across Memetic Tribes 37:22 "Real in What Way?" across Levels of Memetic Complexity 45:05 Summarizing a Metamodern Sort of God 47:06 "God" in Quotation Marks: Moving beyond Totality 52:10 The God Encounter 1:08:12 The Divine Other 1:13:33 Praxis: Courting Visio Divina 1:16:41 Pluralistic Mysticism 1:23:10 Trinity as Dynamic Architectonic Plurality 1:27:08 Naturalism and Metaphysics 1:30:46 God is Love 1:37:20 Talking about "The G Word" 1:39:40 The Upcoming Metamodern Spirituality Lab on "God" at Sky Meadow (May 24-26) More on the metamodern spirituality lab at www.skymeadowinstitute.org

Process theologian Jay McDaniel joins me to discuss the contributions of process thought to the Christian tradition. What points of similarity and dissimilarity are there between process thinking and traditional, modern, and postmodern lenses? 0:00 Introduction 1:06 What Does Theology Look Like from a "Process" Lens? Relationship with Traditional Faith 5:44 A Feeling, Responding God 8:40 Not All-Powerful 14:40 A Dynamic, Living Whole Relationship with Modern Thought 19:41 The Naturalistic Paradigm and (the) Beyond 24:30 A Theology of Organism and Complexity 29:30 "God" as Counter-Entropic Lure and Preserver of Good 39:33 A Modern Gestalt for Christianity? 49:31 Looking Forward, Not Back 54:52 The Pathos of God Relationship with Postmodern Thought 1:04:38 Play, Beauty, Reality Relationship with Metamodernism 1:10:33 Lineages, Legacies, and Futures 1:14:40 Conclusion

Here I lay out my conception of what a metamodern version of Christianity looks like. Drawing on the insights of all the previous cultural paradigms, the revelation of God's nature and the deepening quality of the relationship between God and man can be understood as progressing through a series of covenants/dispensations that map to a learning process unfolding through time. Such a perspective helps us non-arbitrarily coordinate tribal, imperial, traditional, modern, and postmodern conceptions of God that have manifested across sacred history. All of these are necessary and contribute to a coherent story of deepening understanding about and relationship with the ever-transcendent Divine. 0:00 Introduction 0:56 "Metamodern" 5:50 "Christianity" 9:00 Sacred History as Learning and Expansion 11:43 Dynamics of Learning: Assimilation and Accomodation 16:47 Learning as Complexification of Thought 18:04 The Revelation of God as a Learning Process 24:34 1. The Sacred Relationship in the Tribal Epoch 26:12 2. Relationship with God in the Monarchy 29:02 3. Deepening Divine Relationship in the Prophets and Gospels 31:10 Recap: The Arc of Learning God Better 33:41 4. Revelation in the Modern Era 40:05 5. The Way of Jesus in Postmodernity 42:09 6. Metamodern Christianity: Embracing All Stages of Revelation 53:37 Conclusion

In this episode, I assume the modern historical-critical perspective with pastor and 'This Little Corner of the Internet' thinker Paul VanderKlay to explore the tension points it has with the traditional-devotional lens--and to consider if and how these impasses might be transcended. Does history matter to faith and to the faithful? If so, how, when, and why? Can we avoid equivocating discussions around the "reality" of Christianity? How crucial is the nonrational? Overall, we rehearse what challenges the traditional approach to Christianity faces as it develops into modern expressions and interpretations on the way towards a metamodern instantiation. 0:00 Introduction 0:55 The "God Pivot" and Metamodernism: The Missing Modern 7:39 How Does Faith Relate to Modern & Postmodern Critical Approaches? 24:30 The Reality of Religion in Different Psycho-Social Contexts 36:18 Reality vs. History: Language as Metaphor or Fact 52:38 Worldview, Rationality, and Projection 1:04:28 "Spirit": False Substance Reification vs. Real Transjective Relationality 1:07:22 Avoiding Equivocation and Taking Modern Science Seriously 1:20:59 Pragmatic and Developmental Hermeneutics 1:44:16 Nonrationality and the Meaning Crisis 1:59:15 Different Metamodern Spiritual Arcs: The Theological is Personal 2:16:00 Conclusion

In this episode, I offer my own take on the "God Pivot" towards Christianity in the Intellectual Dark Web and adjacent communities (e.g., the liminal web, "This Corner of the Internet," and beyond). Reflecting on my recent interview with Jordan Hall, I see something glaringly absent from the broader conversation: the modern historical-critical perspective. Therefore, I ask: 1) How does the Traditional-Devotional perspective differ from the Modern Historical-Critical one with regard to the Old and New Testaments? 2) What might a metamodern Christianity look like that could successfully and syngergistically toggle between these different lenses to yield something progressive and robust? 0:00 Introduction 4:40 Hermeneutic Lenses: The Traditional-Devotional and Modern Historical-Critical Perspectives 7:46 Old Testament: Traditional-Devotional 13:13 Old Testament: Modern Historical-Critical 32:01 New Testament: Traditional-Devotional 37:53 New Testament: Modern Historical-Critical 47:58 Implications and Synthesis

Following a recent conversion to Christianity, Jordan Hall offers his perspective on the Christian worldview, its orienting beliefs and how they inform (and affirm) ways of being in the world. Brendan brings his own background of being raised in and and leaving the church to the conversation, trying to gain deeper understanding about how one can affirm Christian doctrine in the context of a metamodern world. 0:00 Introduction 2:47 Faith and Understanding: Christian Propositional vs. Participatory Knowing 15:36 Beyond a "Religion vs. Reason" Debate 20:26 Jordan's Reasons to Believe: Scripture, History, 1st Person Experience* 30:36 Jordan Not Impressed by Naturalistic Challenge to the Resurrection 35:56 Notions of Gospel and Sin: Faith Changing Behavior --- For Good or Ill 41:53 Jordan's Rejection of Naturalism and His Faith in Christian Historicity and Ontology 52:21 (Brendan Has a Lot of Responses He Won't Get Into in This Context) 53:07 Self-Confirming Faith: Reciprocal Opening in Other Faiths? 1:02:32 Excursus: Historicity and Hermeneutics of the Doctrine of the Trinity 1:08:52 Self-Confirming Faith: Pathologies in Self-Justifying Beliefs 1:16:20 Self-Confirming Faith: Participatory Knowing and Confirmation Bias 1:27:53 Conclusion

Patrick Barry joins me to continue our discussion about the emerging contours of a metamodern wisdom school and the secular spirituality beginning to fill in the "missing tradition" between and beyond science and religion. 0:00 Introduction 0:34 Towards a Secular Spirituality 5:01 Awe and Mystery in Both Religion and Science 10:25 "Faith" in What Is 17:18 Being Naturally At Home in the Universe 27:08 Past Church and Academia: Forging a New Kind of Wisdom Institution 46:21 A New Story: A Self-Appreciating Cosmos 58:40 Meaning as Awe as Learning 1:04:18 Significance vs. Scale 1:09:58 Speculating on God and Telos: Finding Ourselves in the Depths of Being 1:24:23 Conclusion

Stephen Hicks, a professor of philosophy and author of Explaining Postmodernism, joins me to discuss the transformation of worldviews from the premodern to the modern and from the modern to the postmodern. After his incisive overview of these dramatic shifts, we discuss what it might look like to integrate the genuinely positive contributions of postmodern thought, and consider where we are headed in a post-postmodern world. 0:00 Introduction 1:58 How to Trace Philosophical History 4:15 From Premodern to Modern 15:56 From Modern to Postmodern 34:07 How Do We Move Beyond the Modern and Postmodern while Integrating Their Strengths? 43:28 Relativizing the Critique 51:14 Living After Postmodernism