Episode 231: Will Cockrell - The Business of Everest

Use my Intersport discount code LOOKINGSIDEWAYS for huge savings on ski and snowboard rental this winter. --One of the odd things about podcasting (at least the way I do it, anyway) is when a episode you’re convinced is one of the best, most enjoyable conversations you’ve ever had doesn’t get the pick up it deserves.That was very definitely the case with my autumn 2022 conversation with legendary ski film-maker Greg Stump. Which is why, four years later, I am re-running it so that recent subscribers to Looking Sideways can listen to my conversation with one of the most quietly influential figures in action sports. I’m going to come right out and say it: Greg Stump is as influential a guest as I’ve yet had on the show. Now, if you’re unfamiliar with Greg’s oeuvre (and in recent years his achievements have been shamefully overlooked) this might seem like a fairly wild claim. But when you consider the success of an era-defining smash like his film The Blizzard of Aaahhs, and look seriously at the lasting impact of his work, who can really doubt it? Greg, a skier, snowboarder and film-maker, first came to prominence with low-key ski film hits such as Maltese Flamingo and A Fistful of Moguls. But the success of 1998’s Blizzard changed everything. Here was a genuine pop cultural crossover success that redefined the ski film for a new generation, gave snowboarding a new platform, saw stars Glen Plake and Scott Schmidt appear on The Today Show, and set the ‘extreme’ agenda that still resonates to this day. On a personal level, Greg certainly changed my life. My first viewing of Blizzard as a skate and snow-obsessed Mancunian teenager in 1990 introduced me to a new world, where dirtbag skiers and snowboarders chased the snow in beguiling sounding-locations such as Telluride, Squaw Valley and Chamonix. For me, it was as exotic as the smooth Californian pavements I wished I could skate, and it put me on the path I am still following to this day. All of which goes some way to explain why, when I sat down to speak with Greg, excitement levels were high - on both sides of the Zoom call. After all, it isn’t often you get to chat to a legit hero and tell them what an impact their work had on your life. The resulting conversation was a riot - funny, warm, extravagant and shamelessly vain - a little like those films that changed so many lives. Hope you enjoy this one as much as I did. --To find out more about what I do, you can sign up as a subscriber to my Substack newsletter here. There's a brilliant community and much more than just the podcasts. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.wearelookingsideways.com/subscribe

Use SIDEWAVES10 for 10% off anything from session at The Wave in Bristol!--As anybody who’s watched your typical softball chat-show conversation will be aware, interviews with people at a certain level of fame and renown, such as this week’s guest Jordy Smith, tend to unfold in one of two ways. There’s the filtered, on-message, and generally uninteresting stuff we’ve all heard countless times before. And then, very rarely, there’s what happened here: which is a really an insightful and frequently hilarious chat that certainly captures the personality of one of surfing’s modern greats, as well as the experience of life on the modern tour. Jordy was in town (at the Wave, specifically) to take part in the regular O’Neill Rookie Rippers event, so I headed over to grab him for an hour to record this chat. As soon as Jordy clocked the Looking Sideways approach, he was straight into it, and what followed was a quick fire and super enjoyable romp through his life and times as one of African surfing’s modern greats. --To find out more about what I do, you can sign up as a subscriber to my Substack newsletter here. There's a brilliant community and much more than just the podcasts. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.wearelookingsideways.com/subscribe

Use SIDEWAVES10 for 10% off anything from session at The Wave in Bristol!--What a treat to welcome the great Jamie Brisick back for his third Looking Sideways appearance. The occasion? The release of The Life and Death of Westerly Windina, his brilliant documentary collaboration with Australian director Alan White about the life and times of Peter Drouyn and Westerly Windina. But also, a welcome chance to catch up with one of surfing’s sharpest, brightest minds. My friendship with Jamie has been one of the great pleasures of this whole Looking Sideways business. As has been watching his career continue to blossom in the years since his first appearance on the show.His Soundings podcast, for example, produced in conjunction with The Surfer’s Journal, is six seasons in and rightly beloved around the world. And his journalism continues to hoik the bar higher with every passing year. Jamie has also been a very generous cheerleader for my own work, acting as a welcome sounding board as I’ve worked on The Announcement, and encouraging me in all my own weird little creative endeavours. So it was that we caught up one evening in October to catch up, compare notes, and discuss the Westerly project, Soundings and The Announcement in detail. What follows is a digressive, self-indulgent catch up in the finest Looking Sideways tradition. I enjoyed it immensely, and I hope you do to. --To find out more about what I do, you can sign up as a subscriber to my Substack newsletter here. There's a brilliant community and much more than just the podcasts. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.wearelookingsideways.com/subscribe

Use SIDEWAVES10 for 10% off anything from session at The Wave in Bristol!--Over the last year, it’s been one of the biggest stories in British surfing. How Croyde’s own Laura Crane headed to Nazare, and surfed the biggest waves ever snagged by a British woman. No wonder if’s been covered by everybody from Carve to BBC Radio Five Live. But if you’ve been listening a little bit more closely, you’ll realise that there’s actually much more to Laura’s story than this admittedly incredible feat. And it’s this aspect of the story, the bit that most surf media seems to have missed, that I was interested in discussing when we caught up for this conversation at the end of August 2024. Because the truth is that Laura’s professional surfing career has been as much about rejecting the preordained role the surf industry demands of its women professionals as it has been about the actual surfing.It’s been about understanding the personal impact of this institutionalised toxicity - in Laura’s case bulimia. And it’s been an ongoing battle to balance her love of surfing with the demands a predominately male surf media and industry make on female bodies and identities.As anybody who has been paying attention will realise, this is a depressingly familiar story when it comes to women’s professional sport, no matter how high the profile. Think of Naomi Osaka, Simone Biles, or Serena Williams, for example; women with about as much agency as it’s possible to have in the world of professional sport, and yet who have still had to constantly fight to establish their own physical and mental boundaries. And it’s here that we find the real power in Laura’s story. Her account of the reality of the professional surfing dream, and its impact on her, is one we just don’t hear very often. That’s why it is so important. Ultimately, it’s a story of reclamation, in which Laura has remade her own story, and shaped her surfing future, on her own terms. Yes, it has taken her to Nazare. But what’s really going to be exciting is seeing where it takes her next. --To find out more about what I do, you can sign up as a subscriber to my Substack newsletter here. There's a brilliant community and much more than just the podcasts. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.wearelookingsideways.com/subscribe

Use LOOKINGSIDEWAYS for 15% off anything from Stance socks.--I’m joined by one of THE all time greats this week: Tommy Guerrero, legendary skateboarder and musician; and one of the select few to have shaped the way we collectively view this entire sideways culture.Tommy was, of course, part of the original Bone Brigade crew, alongside Tony Hawk, Steve Caballero, Mike McGill, Lance Mountain and Rodney Mullen.His parts in Future Primitive, Ban This and Public Domain basically defined the concept of modern street skating. In tandem, he also established a career as a hugely influential musician, which continues to this day.In short, Tommy well and truly justifies the ‘legend’ epithet. And yet, as is so often the case, I found him on wry, reflective form: as happy to geek out on Sudanese jazz as he was to discuss those legendary video parts; and ruminate on how growing up without a father influenced his life and career.Sometimes this gig is a total privilege and delight, and this was one of those occasions. Thanks to Tommy for taking the time, and to our mutual pal Thomas Campbell for the intro.--To find out more about what I do, you can sign up as a subscriber to my Substack newsletter here. There's a brilliant community and much more than just the podcasts. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.wearelookingsideways.com/subscribe

Use LOOKINGSIDEWAYS for 15% off any Db luggage or bag - and click here to see my other discounts.--Hallvard Kolltveit describes himself as ‘the surf photographer that doesn’t know how to swim properly’. It’s a good line, and one that sums up Hallvard’s witty and self-deprecating take on his own unconventional route through action sport and outdoor media. If you’re unfamiliar with his work, he's one of the first really popular post-Burkard cold water surf photographers to blow up on Instagram, and I’ve been following his career with interest ever since.We actually first met back in April 2019, in Lofoten, during a Patagonia Snow Impact camp. We stayed in touch, and have since worked on a couple of gigs together, and crossed paths in unusual places.In this chat, recorded in May 2024, we discussed the nature of risk-taking, in both physical and creative pursuits, and how discomfort can be a powerful catalyst for growth.Literally, in Hallvard’s case, as he explained how his recent foray into ultra-endurance events have influenced his perspective on life and art.We also discussed the balance between commercial success and artistic integrity, the importance of collaboration, and the endless quest for new perspectives in a rapidly changing media landscape.Classic Looking Sideways fodder, in other words. Have a listen, and let me know what you think.--To find out more about what I do, you can sign up as a subscriber to my Substack newsletter here. There's a brilliant community and much more than just the podcasts. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.wearelookingsideways.com/subscribe

Use LOOKINGSIDEWAYS for 15% off any Db luggage or bag - and click here to see my other discounts.--Nick Russell is one of those rare snowboarders who combines grace and intellect in equal measure, pushing the boundaries of what's possible in the high alpine with a distinctly cerebral approach. I've been following Nick's career since I first interviewed him for Curator Magazine, and it's been a joy to watch his subsequent evolution into one of our most innovative and pioneering riders.And this past winter has been especially significant for Nick. He ticked off the first snowboard descent of Papsura, a 6000-meter behemoth in the Indian Himalaya. He followed that with another crack at Mount Saint Elias in Alaska - a peak that 'Fifty' aficionados will recognise as one of the last great unsolved problems of that particular series.It was an intense winter, and by the time we sat down to record this conversation, at the end of July 2024, I found Nick in recovery mode and in an open, reflective mood. The result is a hugely insightful and thoughtful conversation that covers the two expeditions, themes such as the law of diminishing risk-versus-reward returns that comes with the high alpine territory, as well as a diverting thread around climate change and the accusations of hypocrisy that are so often levelled at people in NIck’s position. I’m a big fan of NIck’s approach to snowboarding, and I enjoyed this chat very much. Enjoy, and let me know what you think.--To find out more about what I do, you can sign up as a subscriber to my Substack newsletter here. There's a brilliant community and much more than just the podcasts. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.wearelookingsideways.com/subscribe

Use SIDEWAVES10 for 10% off any session at the Wave - and click here to see my other discounts.--How do you find an original angle with somebody who’s discussed the same story hundreds of times? Especially when that person is one of the best-loved and most-interviewed people in their field?That’s the challenge I faced when approaching this interview with the great Captain Liz Clark. The occasion was the paperback release of Swell, Liz’s much-loved book about her decade-long voyage around the Pacific, with the author at the end of what was essentially her second round of promotion for the same tale.And Swell really is a modern maritime classic; much more than ‘just’ a straight retelling of Liz’s incredibly gruelling, challenging and rewarding journey, as eloquently and honestly as she tells that tale.It’s also about how we cope with the biggest themes of the lot: the generational accumulations that have brought us to this particular point, how a challenge such as Liz’s can be the canvas upon which we engage in the grandest acts of self discovery, and also how we can learn to face life’s challenges with grace and equanimity. It’s also about Liz’s own environmental awakening, a theme that brings us full circle to the present day.In the end, I decided to go full Looking Sideways on this one: eschewing the questions Liz has been asked a gazillion times before: ignoring all the received podcasting interview wisdom (and believe me, there’s a LOT of that about these days); leaning into my full repertoire of lengthy digressions, two-minute long questions; and generally trusting Liz would get I was trying to have a conversation we’d both (and hopefully, my listeners) appreciate on a more human level.I’m happy to report that Liz went seemed to be as into the idea as I was, and the result is the chat you’re about to listen to. Hope you enjoy it, and fo let me know what you think if you get a second.--To find out more about what I do, you can sign up as a subscriber to my Substack newsletter here. There's a brilliant community and much more than just the podcasts. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.wearelookingsideways.com/subscribe

Use LOOKINGSIDEWAYS for 15% off any Stance socks - and click here to see my other discount codes.--Regular listeners will know that British skateboarding institution Read and Destroy occupies an important place in the Looking Sideways firmament, both for me personally and for British sideways culture in general.I've talked about it at length over the years, but Read and Destroy was hugely important to me when I was growing up. Not just because it was the main UK skate mag at the time. Looking back, I realise that it’s what RaD represented that was really important - that you could make something like that about the things you loved. That you could blatantly make it up as you went along. And you didn't need permission!These were important, revelatory lessons for me at the time, that continue to influence the work that I do to this day.This is why, in the early years of Looking Sideways, it was so important for me to speak to Tim Leighton-Boyce. Sure, I wanted to hear his story. But I also wanted to pay homage to what he'd created.In the intervening years, it's become clear I'm not the only one who was influenced by the work of Tim, and peers like Paul Sunman. Among the wider skateboarding and creative community, there is huge affection not only for Read and Destroy, but for the creative uniqueness of the British scene generally. You can see it in the works of somebody like Neil Macdonald, who I've also had on the show, and the huge popularity of the Read and Destroy Instagram account run by Dan Adams.You can also see it in the response to last year's London Calling event, and the outpouring of love and excitement with which the release of new Read and Destroy book has been greeted.Which is why, on the eve of the release of this new history of Read and Destroy (and this year's London Calling event), I decided to sit down with Dan, Paul and Wig Worland for the conversation you're about to listen to. Wig is another old friend, but I'd never met Paul, even if we both knew of each other and have plenty of mutual friends.As ever, I didn't really have an agenda. I just wanted to let the virtual tape roll and let these three oldest of friends, all so influential when it comes to UK skate culture, take the conversation where they wanted. As you'll hear, that's exactly what happened. It's a good one, this. Even Wig enjoyed it, which really is the highest of praise. I hope you do too, and as ever I’d love to know what you think of this one.--To find out more about what I do, you can sign up as a subscriber to my Substack newsletter here. There's a brilliant community and much more than just the podcasts. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.wearelookingsideways.com/subscribe

Use LOOKINGSIDEWAYS for 15% off any Stance socks - and click here to see my other discount codes.--As regular listeners will know, I don't often cover mountaineering and climbing on Looking Sideways.But I knew I had to make an exception for Everest Inc., Will Cockrell's brilliantly written and nuanced exploration of the increasingly commodified world of mountaineering on the world's highest peak.Firstly, as somebody who's been devouring books on climbing, adventure, and exploration since I was a kid, I was intrigued to discover that Will had managed to find a fresh angle on the most obvious topic of all.Secondly, there’s much more to Will’s book than a straightforward retelling of the history of guided exploration on Everest. At its heart, Everest Inc. is a dispassionate examination of the increasingly commodified nature of adventure, bookended by those first British expeditions and, latterly, Nirmal Purja’s testosterone-fuelled approach to the business of mountaineering.In this classically meandering Looking Sideways chat, Will and I discuss the ethics of commercialisation, the socio-economic impact of climbing, and the legacy of colonialism and empire that underpins the entire tale.We also pondered the challenges of writing about a subject that has at this point been done to death - especially when two of your main subjects refuse to be interviewed - as well as the recent New York Times story about Nirmal Purge that broke the week we spoke.--To find out more about what I do, you can sign up as a subscriber to my Substack newsletter here. There's a brilliant community and much more than just the podcasts. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.wearelookingsideways.com/subscribe