Part 2: What Leaders Can Learn From the People Who Are Leaving the Church | An Interview with Jeff Strong

This is a follow-up conversation. Listen to the first episode here. Jeff Strong worked nearly 30 years in the consumer products industry as a senior executive at Procter & Gamble and global president and chief customer officer at Johnson & Johnson. He then taught in the Marriott School of Business at Brigham Young University and worked as an advisor to the Church before serving as a mission leader in the Arkansas Bentonville Mission. Jeff has since spent several years doing research on why people are leaving the Church. He recently published the book Torn: Why People We Love Are Leaving the Church and What We Can Learn from Them. Jeff lives in Midway, Utah, and stays busy with a little lavender farm, some business consulting, and enjoying family. Links Torn: Why People We Love Are Leaving the Church and What We Can Learn from Them Part 1: What Leaders Can Learn From the People Who Are Leaving the Church | An Interview with Jeff Strong What to Say When Loved Ones Leave the Church | An Interview with Jeff Strong and Joseph Grenny The Data Behind Church Culture | An Interview with Jeff Strong TornByJeffStrong.com Instagram: @tornbyjeffstrong Facebook Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights In this follow-up episode, Kurt and Jeff discuss the complexities of faith transitions. The conversation focuses on the four stages individuals typically experience when questioning their faith and the cultural imbalances that can affect their sense of belonging. 00:02:18 – Understanding Faith Transitions 00:05:23 – Four Stages of Faith Transition 00:09:01 – Intensive Seeking Phase 00:10:19 – Relational Breaking Stage 00:12:47 – Importance of Conversations in Faith Transitions 00:13:35 – Embracing Different Perspectives 00:18:00 – Role Play: Navigating Faith Questions 00:20:10 – The Need for New Thinking 00:24:29 – Cultural Imbalances in the Church 00:30:34 – Hard and Unyielding Soil 00:39:51 – Shallow Stony Soil: Growth vs. Sanctuary 00:44:08 – Balancing Sanctuary and Transformation Key Insights Four Stages of Faith Transition: Individuals often go through integrity disruption, permission to question, intensive seeking, and relational breaking. Each stage reflects a different aspect of their journey as they navigate doubts and seek understanding. Cultural Imbalances: Jeff identifies four cultural imbalances in the Latter-day Saint community, including hard and unyielding soil versus acceptance, and sanctuary versus transformation. These imbalances can alienate individuals who feel their beliefs or experiences do not align with community expectations. Importance of Acceptance: Acknowledging and validating the experiences of those questioning their faith is crucial. Leaders should create an environment where individuals feel safe to express doubts without fear of judgment or ostracism. Nourishment vs. Protection: The conversation emphasizes the need for a balance between the protective aspects of church culture and the nourishing elements that foster growth and transformation. Leaders should focus on providing spiritual nourishment to help individuals thrive. Role of Conversations: Open and supportive conversations can significantly impact whether individuals choose to stay within the faith community. Leaders should approach discussions with empathy and understanding, recognizing the importance of relational dynamics. Leadership Applications Foster Open Dialogue: Encourage open discussions about faith and doubts within congregations. Create safe spaces where members can share their experiences without fear of being labeled or judged. Balance Protection and Nourishment: Strive to create a culture that values both adherence to standards and the acceptance of diverse beliefs and experiences. This balance can help retain members who may feel marginalized. Supportive Leadership: Leaders should model vulnerability by sharing their own faith journeys and struggles. This approach can help normalize the questioning process and foster a sense of community and belonging among members. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Every first Friday of the month, Kurt Francom hosts Zion Lab Live, where we review the latest happenings and conversations taking place in Zion Lab and across our online community. Kurt highlights key posts, trending discussions, and new podcast episodes—offering insights, context, and opportunities for deeper engagement. Jump into Zion Lab: https://app.leadingsaints.org/ In this episode, Kurt and livestream guests discuss the challenges faced by young married adults in the Church, particularly their faith and social dynamics. The conversation also touches on Mother’s Day experiences and the importance of intellectual engagement in church settings. Links & Resources 📱 Download the Leading Saints app: Search “Leading Saints” in the Apple App Store or Google Play 💬 Join Zion Lab and become a Zion Builder at https://app.leadingsaints.org Watch this episode or read the transcript in Zion Lab 📩 DM Kurt directly inside Zion Lab Key Insights Transition Challenges: Young married adults often experience a shift from a vibrant social life in young single adult (YSA) groups to a more insular lifestyle focused on their immediate families, which can lead to feelings of isolation and apathy towards church involvement. Faith Engagement: Many young couples consciously or subconsciously reassess their commitment to church practices after marriage, with some drifting away from traditional attendance and callings. Social Media Impact: The prevalence of scrolling culture and streaming services can diminish the desire for social interaction, making it easier for couples to retreat into their homes rather than engage with their church community. Mother’s Day Observations: The episode highlights mixed feelings about Mother’s Day in church settings, with some women feeling excluded or uncomfortable due to personal circumstances, such as loss or infertility. There is a call for more inclusive recognition of all women, not just mothers. Intellectual Engagement: The discussion emphasizes the need for church lessons to be intellectually stimulating while also fostering connection and spiritual growth. There is a tension between providing deep doctrinal insights and ensuring that lessons remain accessible and engaging for all members. Leadership Applications Create Inclusive Activities: Leaders can foster community among young married couples by organizing targeted activities that encourage social interaction and connection, helping to mitigate feelings of isolation. Facilitate Open Discussions: Encouraging open conversations about faith and personal experiences can help young couples navigate their spiritual journeys together, reinforcing their commitment to church involvement. Reevaluate Traditions: Leaders should consider the diverse experiences of women in their congregations during events like Mother’s Day, ensuring that all members feel valued and included, regardless of their personal circumstances. 00:01:11 – What is a Zion Builder? 00:02:46 – The Role of AI Clerk in Zion Lab 00:03:39 – Discussion on Young Married Adults 00:07:37 – Insights from a Bishop on Young Married Activities 00:11:39 – Engaging Young Families in Church Activities 00:15:12 – The Transition from Single to Married Life 00:18:14 – Challenges of Church Attendance for Young Couples 00:21:05 – Mother’s Day Observations and Experiences 00:27:01 – Debate on the Importance of Mother’s Day in Church 00:30:33 – The Role of Heavenly Mother in Discussions 00:34:48 – Intellectual Engagement in Church Lessons 00:39:15 – Balancing Intellectual and Spiritual Needs 00:46:08 – Community Sharing vs. Traditional Teaching “Zion Lab Live” streams every first Friday of the month in the Zion Lab app. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Orlando R. Kelm is a retired professor from the University of Texas at Austin. He served in the Department of Spanish and Portuguese and the McCombs School of Business for over 37 years, teaching courses in Portuguese and Spanish language and linguistics. His research and publications focused on the cultural aspects of cross-cultural communication and the creative use of technology in language learning. Orlando was born in Calgary, Alberta, raised in Taylorsville, Utah, and educated at Brigham Young University and the University of California at Berkeley. He served in the São Paulo Norte Brazil mission, and his three favorite hobbies are studying foreign languages, acoustic guitar, and astrophotography and nature photography. Orlando recently published the book It’s a Patriarchal Blessing!. Links It’s a Patriarchal Blessing Email Before a Patriarchal Blessing (Microsoft Word format) Email Before a Patriarchal Blessing (PDF format) Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Highlights Orlando discusses his experiences as a patriarch and the significance of patriarchal blessings. He emphasizes the importance of viewing these blessings as affirmations of identity and divine potential rather than as mere checklists or warnings. 00:02:28 – Orlando’s Calling as a Patriarch 00:03:52 – Challenges of Starting as a Patriarch 00:04:48 – Training and Preparation for Patriarchs 00:05:41 – The Pressure of Giving a Blessing 00:06:29 – Communicating First-Time Blessings 00:07:06 – Orlando’s Role as the Only Patriarch 00:07:55 – Impact on Gospel Study and Preparation 00:08:34 – Revelation and Inspiration in Preparation 00:09:40 – The Importance of Compassion 00:10:37 – Note-Taking for Blessings 00:12:00 – Reviewing and Editing Blessings 00:13:27 – The Nature of Patriarchal Blessings 00:14:35 – Preparing Candidates for Blessings 00:17:30 – Helping Candidates Feel Comfortable 00:19:06 – The Role of Patriarchs in the Church 00:20:10 – The Blessing Aspect of Patriarchal Blessings 00:21:09 – Avoiding a Checklist Mentality 00:22:32 – The Role of Personal Agency 00:23:36 – Orlando’s List of Recommended Talks 00:24:45 – Reducing Anxiety for Candidates 00:26:07 – The Experience of Giving Blessings 00:27:30 – The Importance of Seeing Potential 00:28:59 – Understanding Lineage in Blessings 00:30:33 – The Significance of Covenant and Gathering 00:31:47 – Contributions of Different Tribes 00:33:44 – The Role of Personal Revelation 00:35:58 – Flexibility in Interpreting Blessings 00:37:09 – The Lifelong Relevance of Blessings Key Insights The Nature of Patriarchal Blessings: These blessings should be viewed fundamentally as a positive source of love and divine identity. Orlando emphasizes that they are not patriarchal warnings, admonitions, or “chewing outs,” but rather tools to help individuals understand their divine worth. Preparation as a Patriarch: The process involves intense, ongoing spiritual preparation. Orlando explains that he often feels like a “faucet that cannot be turned off” in the days leading up to a blessing, as he studies scriptures and topics prompted by the Holy Ghost to prepare his mind to receive impressions. Mortal Delivery of Revelation: Patriarchs receive inspiration, but they must articulate it using their own mortal capacity, vocabulary, and understanding. Consequently, a patriarchal blessing is a collaboration between the Spirit and the patriarch’s mortal expression. The Fallacy of the “Checklist”: Recipients should avoid viewing their blessings as a list of required events (e.g., marriage, missions, children) to be checked off. Instead, they should see the blessing as a resource to be applied to all of life’s decisions, challenges, and experiences. Understanding Lineage: The declaration of lineage is not a DNA test but an invitation to participate in the Abrahamic covenant and the gathering of Israel. Each tribe’s unique description provides a different “skill set” for how an individual can contribute to the Lord’s work. Leadership Applications Alleviate Anxiety: Leaders can help reduce the nervousness people feel about visiting a patriarch by fostering opportunities for the patriarch to interact with ward members (e.g., firesides, sacrament meetings, or activities) beforehand, making him a familiar figure rather than a stranger. Foster a Broad Interpretation: Bishops and leaders should encourage members to interpret their patriarchal blessings with flexibility. When members feel confused by their blessing, leaders can help them understand that the meanings may evolve and deepen as they face different stages and challenges in life. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Cole Zesiger is a breakup and relationship coach, author, and content creator who specializes in helping people navigate heartbreak, healing, and healthy relationships. After experiencing a divorce at 23 and another difficult breakup soon after, Cole began openly sharing his journey online, eventually growing an audience of more than 750,000 followers across Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and other platforms. Through his coaching programs, online community, and content, he has helped over 2,000 people work through breakups, strengthen their self-worth, improve communication, and build healthier relationships. His practical approach blends psychology, attachment theory, faith, and real-world experience to help people either reconcile in healthier ways or move forward with peace and confidence. Cole grew up in Utah and served as a missionary in the Manila Philippines Mission. He married his wife, Jocelyn, in 2023, and together they are raising their daughter, Daisy. When he’s not coaching or creating content, Cole enjoys playing guitar, dirt biking, wildlife photography, and exploring the mountains. His debut book, Ex’s and No’s: The Breakup Advice You Don’t Want to Hear, offers a roadmap for rebuilding confidence, healing attachment wounds, and creating lasting love. Links Ex’s and No’s: The Breakup Advice You Don’t Want to Hear CoachColeZesiger.com Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Cole Zesiger discusses navigating early divorce and breakups within the Young Single Adult (YSA) community of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The conversation focuses on dismantling the spiritual stigma surrounding failed marriages and provides actionable methods for processing relationship trauma. 00:02:06 – Cole’s Journey Through Divorce 00:05:08 – The Reality of Early Marriage Challenges 00:07:56 – Understanding Attachment Styles 00:10:41 – The Impact of Divorce on Self-Perception 00:12:27 – The Aftermath of Divorce 00:14:06 – Reflecting on Past Relationships 00:17:14 – The Importance of Community Support 00:20:27 – Addressing the YSA Experience with Divorce 00:22:09 – Normalizing Divorce in Church Culture 00:24:34 – Understanding God’s Role in Relationships 00:27:10 – Creating Depth in Relationships 00:30:02 – The Importance of Service in Marriage 00:32:11 – Supporting Those Experiencing Divorce 00:35:37 – Best Practices for YSA Leaders 00:39:30 – Building a Present Worth Living In Key Insights The Perfection Stigma: Many young Latter-day Saints internalize a strict cultural path (e.g., mission, temple marriage) as a guarantee of success, leading to intense shame, identity crises, and a sense of absolute personal failure if a marriage ends in divorce. Anxious Attachment and Relationship Mechanics: Childhood and mission environments can inadvertently cultivate anxious attachment styles, causing individuals to compulsively try to “will a relationship into existence” or over-sacrifice personal needs rather than assessing core value compatibility. God’s Will and Adversity: Divine promptings to marry do not mean God guaranteed a problem-free relationship; rather, adversity and divorce can be part of a broader spiritual landscape designed to build critical emotional skills and resilience. The Physiology of Heartbreak: Neurologically, overcoming a major breakup mimics chemical detox patterns seen in severe substance withdrawals, highlighting that the profound grief experienced by individuals is an intense physiological reality that requires intentional time to navigate. Active Relationship Maintenance: Sustainable long-term intimacy requires entering the “deep end” of a relationship by prioritizing consistent service actions strictly to maintain one’s own love for their partner rather than doing so out of a codependent need for constant reciprocation. Leadership Applications Initiate Purposeful Social Inclusion: Leaders should deliberately look out for divorced or grieving ward members, actively connecting them to peer networks and social activities to replace isolation with a forward-looking sense of belonging. Shift the Spiritual Narrative: When counseling individuals facing separation, leaders can help reframe their perspective from viewing divorce as an identity-defining failure or sin to treating it as a difficult life trial that offers space for grace and personal growth. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Former mission president Bart Warner and his former missionary James Logan explore the dynamics, patterns, and spiritual impact of mentorship. Drawing from their shared history in the Texas Dallas Mission and their current professional collaboration, they discuss how deliberate interpersonal guidance fosters long-term progression. They focus on overcoming personal stagnation by cultivating effective mentor-mentee relationships to strengthen individuals and build Zion. Links Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Bart and James discuss the importance of building relationships, the role of agency, and the impact of mentorship on personal and professional growth. 00:03:26 – Relationship Between Bart and James 00:04:04 – Bart’s Mission Presidency Experience 00:05:07 – Mentorship Principles 00:07:58 – Bart’s Influential Mentors 00:09:14 – James’ Background Before the Mission 00:10:11 – James’ Decision to Serve a Mission 00:12:11 – First Impressions of Bart as Mission President 00:13:01 – James’ Initial Struggles on the Mission 00:15:14 – The Importance of Following Mission Rules 00:17:14 – Spiritual Experiences on the Mission 00:19:46 – Agency and Mentorship 00:20:29 – The Role of Agency in Life 00:24:39 – Seeking Help from Others 00:25:57 – The Impact of Mentorship 00:28:07 – James’ Career Journey Post-Mission 00:30:06 – Bart’s Mentorship Approach 00:32:38 – The Evolution of Their Mentorship Relationship 00:35:29 – Learning from Mistakes in Business 00:37:00 – The Importance of Agency in Mentorship 00:39:03 – Lessons from Personal Experiences Key Insights The Danger of Spiritual Drifting: Referring to Napoleon Hill’s Outwitting the Devil, Bart explains that a primary tool of adversary-led stagnation is convincing individuals that “drifting” or coasting comfortably through life without progressing is acceptable. A Great Mentee Attracts a Great Mentor: Finding guidance begins with the posture of the learner. True mentorship thrives when a mentee actively desires progression, remains coachable, and seeks out wisdom during times of critical personal or spiritual need. Strict Obedience Unlocks Spiritual Momentum: Reflecting on James’s early mission struggles, the guests highlight how committing to precise alignment with established standards (like the missionary handbook) for even one week can completely shift an individual’s momentum and open doors to transformative experiences. The Dual Impact of Mentorship: True guidance is a mutual blessing. While the mentee receives navigation and structural metrics to succeed, the mentor is simultaneously sharped, humbled, and revitalized by watching the next generation progress. Leadership Applications Intervene with High-Expectation Challenges: When a ward member or missionary wants to give up, leaders can follow Bart’s example by offering a short-term, clear challenge rooted in exact covenant precision rather than immediately lowering expectations. Intentionally Bridge Generation Gaps: Leaders can structurally pair experienced members with younger adults in callings, ward council configurations, or ministering assignments to ensure that lived spiritual and temporal wisdom is actively transferred. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Gifford Nielsen played quarterback for Brigham Young University and six years for the NFL’s Houston Oilers. He worked as the sports director for KHOU-TV in Houston for 25 years. In 1994, Giff was inducted into the College Football Hall of Fame. He was sustained as a General Authority Seventy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 2013 and served as an Assistant Executive Director in the Missionary Department and in the Pacific, North America Northeast, North America Central and Africa West Area Presidencies. He was granted Emeritus status in 2024. Giff was born in Provo, Utah, and married Wendy Olson. They are the parents of six children. Links Find out more information about the cruise at SeaSaints.com. Use code LEADINGSAINTS to be part of our onboard experience. Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Elder Nielsen explores how leadership principles from sports, professional media, and church service converge to build unified communities and lift individuals. He emphasizes how alignment with modern prophets and an openness to revelation elevate local leadership. 00:02:41 – Gifford Nielsen’s Background and Career 00:04:00 – Call to Serve as a General Authority 00:08:02 – Initial Experiences as a General Authority 00:10:07 – Preparing for General Conference Talks 00:12:43 – The Process of Receiving Inspiration 00:16:37 – Speaking at General Conference: Experiences 00:19:02 – Leadership Lessons from State Conferences 00:22:40 – Teaching Principles from Apostles and Prophets 00:25:14 – Importance of Gratitude in Leadership 00:29:00 – Reflections on Leadership and Service 00:32:05 – Learning from Lavell Edwards 00:38:04 – Transitioning Out of General Authority Role 00:40:21 – Experiences in West Africa 00:41:25 – Leadership Lessons from Lavell Edwards 00:44:44 – Lavell Edwards’ Genuine Leadership Style Key Insights The Power of Shared Gatherings: Larger church events, devotionals, and conferences foster a strong sense of togetherness that naturally pushes away negative outside influences and spiritually revitalizes participants. Dynamic, Spirit-Led Instruction: Effective leadership teaching involves adjusting prepared messages in real time based on the immediate spiritual needs, hearts, and faces of the congregation. Continuous Personal Preparation: Rather than relying solely on structured notes, a leader’s preparation must be a daily habit of scripture study, deep pondering, and intentional spiritual readiness. Prophetic Alignment: Local teaching gains transformative power when leaders deliberately anchor their messages in the specific doctrines and priorities emphasized by the living prophet. Authentic Preparation and People Management: Successful leadership requires a balance of understanding structural logistics (“the X’s and O’s”) while remaining fundamentally focused on breaking down barriers to unite and care for people. Leadership Applications Adapting Teaching Formats: Rather than adhering rigidly to pre-written notes during a stake or ward conference, a leader can observe the congregation, look into their hearts, and allow impressions to dictate the ultimate focus of the instruction. Implementing Daily Spiritual Habits: Leaders can shift from last-minute meeting preparation to a model of daily scripture immersion, ensuring they are always spiritually prepared to receive revelation whenever an unexpected counseling or teaching opportunity arises. Unifying Specialized Councils: When working with various ward or stake organizations, a leader can focus on breaking down institutional silos to build a culture of authentic collaboration focused entirely on the individuals they serve. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

John Bushman served as a bishop for 6.5 years, as a member of many bishoprics, and currently serves as a Gospel Doctrine teacher. He has been a Seminaries and Institutes of Religion coordinator, Institute instructor, and is now a Seminary instructor. He has also taught EFY and FSY for 20 years. John loves hiking and going on adventures of most any kind. Links King Before Kingdom Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights John Bushman explores the necessity of a “faithful revival” centered on Jesus Christ rather than the institutional church. He argues that while the restored church is essential, members and leaders often mistake the “kingdom” for the “king,” leading to a checklist-based faith. The discussion focuses on transitioning from a culture of “legalism” to one of genuine “regeneration” through a relationship with the Savior. 00:04:04 – Importance of Collaboration in Leadership 00:05:39 – The Most Important Part of Sacrament Meeting 00:08:06 – The Concept of Revival in the Church 00:10:57 – Spiritual Sleep in the Church 00:12:16 – The Challenge of Routine in Worship 00:13:04 – The Importance of Understanding “Why” 00:14:28 – The Purpose of Church Services 00:19:00 – Faith vs. Knowledge in the Gospel 00:24:01 – The New Covenant vs. Old Covenant 00:27:25 – The Role of Jesus in Salvation 00:28:47 – The Shift Towards Jesus-Centered Worship 00:30:35 – The Importance of Personal Conversion Stories 00:32:51 – The Relationship Between Church and Christ 00:36:20 – The Role of Church Leaders in Focusing on Jesus 00:39:21 – The Concept of Legalism in Faith 00:44:50 – Moving Beyond Legalism to Grace Key Insights The “King” vs. the “Kingdom”: Bushman emphasizes that the church is the vehicle (the kingdom), but Jesus Christ is the destination (the king). A faithful revival occurs when the focus shifts from just belonging to the organization to surrendering to the Savior. Conversion vs. Testimony: A testimony often focuses on the truth of facts (e.g., Joseph Smith was a prophet), whereas true conversion is the decision to stop doing things one’s own way and surrender life to Jesus. The New Covenant of Faith: Bushman clarifies that “faith” in the New Testament is better understood as “trust” or “reliance,” similar to the trust one places in a surgeon. It is an internal change of heart rather than just an outward performance of commandments. Avoiding “Spiritual Autopilot”: Routines, such as the sacrament or repetitive church meetings, can lead to a “spiritual sleep” where members go through the motions without emotional or spiritual connection to God. Regeneration Over Prohibition: True change (regeneration) happens when a person no longer desires to do evil because their heart has been changed by grace, which is more effective than “prohibition” or simply following a list of “don’ts”. Leadership Applications Pattern Interrupts in Meetings: Leaders can revitalize routine ordinances by adding brief, 60-second “pattern interrupts”. For example, a bishop might briefly challenge the ward to think of one specific way to remember the Lord during the upcoming week just before the sacrament is administered. Shifting the “Why” of Meetings: Leaders should evaluate if their meetings are designed to increase knowledge (factoids) or to facilitate a “worship service” that connects individuals with divinity. Focusing on Redemption in Interviews: When working with members on repentance or baptism, John suggests focusing on the member’s commitment to follow Jesus for the rest of their lives rather than just confirming they believe the Church is true. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Find out more information about this LDS Cruise at SeaSaints.com Use code LEADINGSAINTS to be part of our onboard experience.

Find out more information about this LDS Cruise at SeaSaints.com Use code LEADINGSAINTS to be part of our onboard experience.

Join Kurt Francom and other fantastic speakers and entertainers for the Sea Saints Alaskan Cruise. Find all the details and book your cabin at SeaSaints.com Use Code: LeadingSaints to be included in exclusive Leading Saints experiences onboard.