S3 Ep10: Interview: The Super Great Leap Forward, Khmer Rouge Prison System and the Myths of Angkor with Henri Locard

This episode is a follow-up to the two-hour discussion I had with historian Henri Locard. The video of that full conversation is available for free on Patreon right here (or just go to https://www.patreon.com/shadowsofutopia) - no sign up required. Henri Locard is a prominent scholar of the Khmer Rouge, he testified as an expert witness at the ECCC, and has written extensively on the subject. Most notably Pol Pot's Little Red Book, a collection of the slogans used by the Khmer Rouge, and most recently, Jungle Heart of the Khmer Rouge, a biography of Phi Phuon, Pol Pot's Jarai bodyguard. He also has an upcoming book about the extent of the Khmer Rouge prison system that he is looking to find a publisher for. Unlike last time, in our 'discussion', the focus is tighter. I ask Henri four main questions, particularly the ones that we hadn't got to last time, and while he still drifts a little in his answers (as he does), this is a more concentrated exchange that digs deep into how he sees Cambodia’s past and present. We talk about the meaning of the “Super Great Leap Forward,” the myths of the so-called “hydraulic city” and how they shaped Khmer Rouge policy, the true extent of the regime’s prison system (which Henri argues was more than three times what the ECCC has documented), and finally, what he believes is the single best book written about the Khmer Rouge. Henri has a habit of challenging accepted ideas about Cambodian history, but not in the revisionist way of minimizing the regime’s crimes. He re-examines long-held assumptions, particularly about just how widespread the brutality of the Khmer Rouge was. What makes his perspective powerful is his deep, lived connection to the country, and his long study of how the Khmer Rouge prison network worked.  And as you’ll hear, the conversation begins in one place, loops back around, and then veers in an unexpected direction by the end.

Watch my full walk around and visit to this terrible site (for free!) at https://www.patreon.com/posts/visiting-s21-of-140518814 AGAIN. If you find yourself halfway through that 20 minute preamble, just click the bloody link and watch me investigate a site that no one ever sees. FOR FREE. NO SIGN UPS. JUST CLICK THE BLOODY LINK. Please excuse my indulgent preamble, and its emotion. But you can skip all that by just watching the video at the link above (again FOR FREE). I’ve just released a new video filmed at Krang Ta Chan, the main Khmer Rouge prison of the Southwest Zone. It’s a quiet place today. Rice fields, birds, a small museum. But during the 1970s it was one of the most active execution sites in Cambodia. Thousands of people were killed here under the authority of Ta Mok, the man who ruled this region with an iron grip. This video walks through the site as it looks now, using maps, archival material, and testimonies from the Khmer Rouge Tribunal to piece together how it worked, who was sent here, what life and death were like inside the compound, and what still remains today. It’s one of the most sobering things I’ve ever filmed. But I think it’s important to show these places as they are, to remember what happened, and to understand how people and landscapes still carry that memory.

This is an episode that could be listened to if you’d like, or if you’d prefer to watch it (without ads!) then head to https://patreon.com/shadowsofutopia and watch it for free, no sign ups, no obligations. It's a nice pleasant video, and just one click away. In this bonus episode, I sit down to go through and explain an interview I recently conducted with an ex-Khmer Rouge doctor, who we will refer to as ‘uncle’.  He lived through the events that we have been covering so extensively in the last few episodes of the podcast, the start of the war, Sihanouk’s call for his people to join the resistance against Lon Nol, the Vietnamese communists fighting in Cambodia, and training to become a Khmer Rouge doctor in their primary hospital during the civil war - and then going on to be become a surgeon in Phnom Penh during the regime’s time in power. While he obviously has certain biases, and beliefs, about what the Khmer Rouge were, what went wrong, and why… This is still a fascinating piece of history to contend with. Hearing from the Khmer Rouge themselves about what they felt they were trying to accomplish, as well as his own thoughts about communism, and that he felt that nothing was going wrong in the country - until 1977. He did not blame Pol Pot, but, like many Khmer Rouge, he instead blamed ‘factions’, bad actors, saboteurs, and those who were colluding with the Vietnamese. We get a very one sided view of the story here, and I put it into context for you, and challenge the views that this Khmer Rouge doctor had come to believe about their war, their time in power, and who was really responsible for what happened. I must extend a deep gratitude to Chhay Lim, who organised this trip, and organised contacts for me to be able to speak with. 

I’m back in Cambodia until the end of the year, researching my book on Pol Pot, visiting archives, and filming mini documentaries at places like Kraing Ta Chan prison, Pol Pot’s hometown of Prek Sbauv, and the jungles of Rattanakiri. You can watch these videos in full, for free, on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/shadowsofutopia Or send a one time donation via paypal: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/lpeters1991 This project has been my life’s work for 8 years. But aside from all that went into that, now every trip, every interview, every story takes time, money, and travel to make this happen. Even a free sign up helps, and if you would like to support further, you can do so for as little as $2 a month. Thank you for keeping In the Shadows of Utopia alive.

In this bonus podcast episode, I’ve invited veteran journalist Jim Laurie to reflect on a lifetime spent amid global upheaval. From the Nixon incursion into Cambodia to the oblivious tranquility of Phnom Penh before war erupted—Laurie shares his remarkable memories, including a poignant love story with a local woman, a comparison between the wars in Saigon and Cambodia, and the shock of revisiting Cambodia in 1979 to find destruction everywhere. This episode is enhanced by visuals, including archival footage, that bring his narrative powerfully to life. If you have the opportunity to watch on YouTube, you’ll gain an even richer experience. Watch it at https://youtu.be/hBSejgATaB8

What was the political fallout from Lon Nol's Stroke? How did race and religion become such a key theme of his regime? What led to the worst military defeat of the Cambodian Civil War? Time Period Covered: March - December 1971 In this episode, Lon Nol returns to Cambodia after recoving from a mild stroke in Hawaii. While many hoped he might step aside, and that the US might provoke a change in leadership, Lon Nol remained in power. His little brother's influence grew, and his obsession with race and religion became even more pronounced. Amongst the Vietnam War playing out on Cambodian land, the carnage of American bombs became a regular occurrence. Meanwhile, politics in Phnom Penh leaned toward a military dictatorship. By the end of the year, the Khmer Republic had to face its worst military defeat, one that it would not recover from. Check out www.shadowsofutopia.com/episodes/ for maps and diagrams Sources: Wilfred Deac The Road to the Killing Fields Craig Etcheson The Rise and Demise of Democratic Kampuchea Sat Sutsakhan The Khmer Republic at War Elizabeth Becker When The War Was Over David Chandler The Tragedy of Cambodian History Henry Kamm Report From a Stricken Land

In this episode, I talk with journalist and author Sebastian Strangio about the border tensions between Cambodia and Thailand that have escalated in July 2025. Sebastian is the Southeast Asia editor at The Diplomat and one of the region’s leading journalists. He’s a former reporter at the Phnom Penh Post, and the author of Hun Sen’s Cambodia (re-released as Cambodia: From Pol Pot to Hun Sen and Beyond) and In the Dragon’s Shadow, a study of China’s growing influence in Southeast Asia.  We start with the political figure who has shaped Cambodia for decades, Hun Sen, and trace how his rise from Khmer Rouge defector to Prime Minister led to the creation of a powerful political dynasty. We then look at the handover of power to his son, Hun Manet, and what that has meant for Cambodian politics in the last two years.  From there, we shift focus to Thailand and explore the structure of Thai politics today. Who holds power? How have coups and party shifts shaped its modern system? And how does that compare to Cambodia’s more centralized model? This helps us understand one of the key triggers of the current crisis: a leaked phone call between Hun Sen and former Thai Prime Minister Paetongtarn Shinawatra.  We then move into the border dispute itself. We look at the long history of territorial claims, colonial-era maps, and temple flashpoints like Preah Vihear and Ta Moan. And we ask how this latest confrontation fits into broader patterns of nationalism, political theatre, and regional rivalry. Finally, we explore what role public opinion and media narratives are playing on both sides of the border. 

Hello everyone, I've put together a quick look at the long history of the Thai Cambodia border dispute to compliment what I'm sure many of you are reading and watching in newspapers and on television. The escalation is far from good, and I hope it simmers down back to - as I'll discuss - a normal state of not-quite-peaceful. I cover the history from 900 CE to 2025, and everything from the 1794 retrocession of Battambang, the Franco-Thai War, Sihanouks ICJ case in 1962, Khmer Rouge border clashes and spies, to the more recent disputes about Preah Vihear. Much of this is based off of a recent bonus episode I made for Patreon, so for those that have listened to that, apologies for some of the overlap. www.shadowsofutopia.com/support 

How did the Khmer Republic try to take back control of Cambodia? Time Period Covered: June 1970 - January 1971 In this episode, we follow the Lon Nol government as it attempts to prove that the Khmer Republic can fight and win.  After the initial chaos of the coup and the brief U.S. incursion, Cambodia’s leaders launch their first large-scale offensive: Operation Chenla I. We look at how the Cambodians, with American and South Vietnamese support, attempt to open Route 6, retake lost territory, and secure the Lon Nol strategy. Please see this link for Chenla Offensive Visuals and Maps: https://www.shadowsofutopia.com/episodes/the-khmer-republic-chenla-one Sources: Wilfred Deac The Road to the Killing Fields Craig Etcheson The Rise and Demise of Democratic Kampuchea Sat Sutsakhan The Khmer Republic at War Various New York Times Articles June 1970 CBS News September 4 1970 Ros Sereysothea (song) David Chandler The Tragedy of Cambodian History Henry Kamm Report From a Stricken Land Haing Ngor Surival in the Killing Fields Presidential Briefings 1970 (CIA reading room) Lon Nol - Nixon Correspondance (Office of the Historian)

Lachlan answers a common question about the Khmer Rouge regime: "What happened to the cities after the evacuation in 1975?" as well as another question about the terrible practicalities of life once the country was liberated in 1979: "How did people get their houses back once the Khmer Rouge were gone?" Please consider donating just $2 a month via Patreon or making a one time donation with PayPal Head to https://www.patreon.com/c/shadowsofutopia or www.shadowsofutopia.com/support