Jahmaal Marshall: Trauma Responses on Autopilot Lead to Burnout

Need to get started on your burnout recovery? Download the Core Values Worksheet today!FRIED Fam!—Another fried guide episode arrives by popular demand! This time hosts Cait and Sarah are talking about the holistic guide to burnout recovery, and that includes learning to listen to your body’s signals to figure out what larger issue they’re trying to draw your attention to. Most of us are so accustomed to ignoring our bodies’ signals and burnout signs—pain, rashes, reflux—or even just having to pee!— that we forget that we have the option to address them. But when we do, we build trust with ourselves and our bodies, and over time learn to regulate our emotions and bring ourselves into closer alignment with who we truly are and what truly brings us joy.Which isn’t to say it’s easy. Our culture—from teachers and coaches to doctors—have taught many of us to push through our pain. Cait and Sarah compare the way that American Olympic gymnast Kerri Strug was hailed as a hero for putting her body in danger for the sake of her team, while fellow American Olympic gymnast Simone Biles was vilified for listening to her own needs and bowing out of the games. Sarah shares a story about a recent party that she threw for herself and what her body’s signals told her in the days leading up about her issues with knowing what she wants and asking for it. Everyone’s burnout recovery process, and body signals, are unique. Sarah and Cait will show you how you can begin to hear the personal message your body is trying to send you. Quotes“Everybody’s body does this. But there are so many physical things that we are accustomed to feeling discomfort in, that we override them and we don’t know how to interpret them, so we just move about our day.” (8:33 | Caitlin Donovan)“When you pay attention to it, you grow a part of your brain that teaches you to be more in tune with yourself. And, the research shows, when you pay attention to these small little things like peeing when you have to pee and drinking when you’re thirsty, guess what happens? Your ability to emotionally regulate improves.” (12:14 | Caitlin Donovan) “You build trust with yourself in this process, which creates safety. Not only are you meeting the immediate need by emptying your bladder, also your body says, ‘Oh! Thank you for listening.’” (13:06 | Sarah Vosen) “This is now changing because people don’t put up with things the way they used to, but Sarah and I grew up as gymnasts. You play through the pain, man! Pain is not a reason to stop. Pain is a reason to add tape. Add tape. Oh, my God, I had so much tape on my body and Ibuprofen in my system.” (24:43 | Caitlin Donovan and Sarah Vosen)“It might be overwhelming to tune in, because when you’re in burnout, all of your alarm bells are firing. Your nervous system is on high alert. So it may feel like an emergency when you tune in and that’s because it is.” (41:12 | Sarah Vosen)LinksConnect with Cait:https://caitdonovan.com/unfriedInitial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Need to get started on your burnout recovery? Download the Core Values Worksheet today!“The home is a container for our sensory inputs, and the inputs to our sense organs affect us tremendously,” says Dr. Jaime Rabin, doctor of acupuncture, certified feng shui practitioner and executive leader of Deepak Chopra’s Global Awareness brand. She joins the FRIED podcast today to tell us what we can do to make our living spaces soothing, sanctuaries that infuse us with energy, promote well-being, improve our state of mind and help to form long term behavioral changes. As we discussed in the last episode, emotional detritus buildup blocks energy from flowing freely in the body, and it’s the same with physical clutter in the house. On today’s episode dedicated to burnout and feng shui, Dr. Jaime reveals some of the surprising aspects of your environment that may be causing that energy to leak, as well as her “green flags” and “red flags” when assessing someone’s home.Feng shui starts at the front door—and that’s exactly where you should leave your self-judgment. The process of optimizing your home is highly personal, and while evaluating your surroundings and your needs requires honesty, this should be a positive experience. Learn how to create engaging visual cues that make sense for you, even if it’s just a pretty box for your doom pile. Are your plants and pets working for your home? Join Dr. Jaime to learn more about symbology, the psychology of color, and incorporating the five elements of nature into your home. Quotes“There are two things: there’s the removal of that which is irritating you and adding to your stress and overwhelm—the decluttering, the switching things out, fixing, the mending all of that. And then there’s also the intentional. ‘OK, now, how do I bring in the things that, like you said, the sunshine yellow or whatever it may be for each person. And it doesn’t have to be a complete overhaul.” (10:30 | Dr. Jaime Rabin) “You start letting go of things. And the more the process of letting go then it opens up portals for people, because now they’ve created space for new possibility.” (12:46 | Dr. Jaime Rabin)“Something you can do is start to ask yourself, ‘Where in my home have I accumulated things and what is that saying about where I am right now?’” (13:59 | Dr. Jaime Rabin)“Never feel shame about the things that you need help and support with, and then find the personalized solution for them.” (22:28 | Dr. Jaime Rabin)“The front door specifically is considered the mouth of chi in the home. It is where the fresh energy enters the home, it’s where you welcome your friends and your family, and so the ease with which you enter your home is something extremely important.” (24:51 | Dr. Jaime Rabin)“I’m noticing vibe, I’m noticing flow and then I’m noticing opportunities for intentional design. I’d say those are the real three things that I’m noticing.” (42:22 | Dr. Jaime Rabin) LinksConnect with Dr. Jaime Rabin:lluministaliving.comhttps://www.instagram.com/drjaimerabin/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaimerabin/ https://www.illuministaliving.com/feng-shui-personality-quizConnect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Need to get started on your burnout recovery? Download the Core Values Worksheet today!“When I’m stressed, I trip more, I bang into things more, I stub my toe more—so there’s definitely something going on here,” Cait shares, highlighting the curious link between burnout and clumsiness. In this latest "Fried Guide" episode, Sarah Vosen joins Cait to delve deeper into why burnout can make us more accident-prone and even lead to injuries. They discuss how stress can cause physical reactions like tensed neck muscles and narrowed peripheral vision, making us clumsier.According to Chinese medicine, unprocessed emotions can accumulate in the liver, decaying and poisoning our system. This toxic buildup, combined with neglecting our basic needs like rest and proper nutrition, leads to a depletion so severe that our bodies can't even benefit from healthy inputs. Sarah explains how ignoring our spiritual needs contributes to this misalignment, exacerbating our stress and physical discoordination.So, what’s the solution? Identifying a personal outlet—whether it’s exercise, journaling, or engaging in meaningful conversations—and approaching these activities with mindfulness and intention. Cait and Sarah share how they navigate their own emotional landscapes and manage their stress cycles, offering insights into finding balance in our complicated lives.Quotes“When you’re in the flow of life, and you’re aligned and in balance with yourself, you’re in this flow with everything around you, and therefore, there’s no clumsiness. You’re on it; you’re in your center. Your energy is very intentional. Your thoughts are clear and everything goes smoothly, as you wish.” (3:45 | Sarah Vosen) “Chronic stress mode, when we’re not processing our emotions or processing life, it gets stored in our tissues and our physical body gets solid, hard, tense, and then everything’s not flexible. We’re meant to be flexible, we’re meant to be like a tree that bends in the wind, but when all that stuff builds up and you’re just hanging on tight and you’re tense, not only are you not seeing with your eyes but your body can’t, really it’s just not flowing.” (8:07 | Sarah Vosen) “The same way that we have overactive emotions when we’re burnt out, we know we’re responding ridiculously but we can’t help ourselves, this is the same when we injure ourselves and have a pain response. It’s above and beyond and not appropriate to the thing that happened.” (9:59 | Caitlin Donovan)“When you’re burnt out your body is under-resourced. So, it doesn’t have the tools or the resources that it needs to deal with the injuries that aren’t life-threatening, which is why it usually takes someone getting really sick, or really hurt, or really ending up in the hospital to start responding.” (32:19 | Caitlin Donovan)LinksConnect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Need to get started on your burnout recovery? Download the Core Values Worksheet today!“Are you an introvert or just into hurt?” asks Jahmaal Marshall, certified counselor and founder of Listen Then Speak LLC and the podcast of the same name. Many of us develop behavior and personae, he explains, around a need to protect ourselves from rejection, and we carry these into our personal and professional adult lives. Growing up with a severely addicted father, Jahmaal became as he calls it, “the classic chameleon,” overachieving in school and later at work, fulfilling everyone’s needs in an effort not to cause problems. Today on FRIED, he and Cait talk about the connection between childhood trauma and burnout, the resentment that can build up in us when we feel like we are giving with no reciprocation and the resentment we can experience from others when we set boundaries for ourselves. When we give with the expectation of receiving in return, we may think we’re being generous when actually we are assuming others’ needs, or acting from our own neediness. We can also close ourselves off to the many unexpected ways in which people can show their gratitude. Join today’s discussion to find out what happened when Jahmaal drew a line in the sand at work, and the important lesson he learned. Quotes“I just wanted someone to say, ‘You’ve done well.’ Not that my mom didn’t do those things, but it’s something about when a dad speaks into his son’s life and calls the man out of him. I didn’t have that as a little boy. So, I went through most of my professional life basically searching for that.” (5:09 | Jahmaal Marshall)“My excellence, my quote-unquote high performance, was just a trauma response of a fear of rejection. I did not want to be rejected. So, it’s not that I didn’t know how to say no, I refused. Let’s key in on that word: I refused to say no, because I wanted to protect myself.” (8:09 | Jahmaal Marshall) “That expectation we have and that desire to give and receive, we’ve even been taught that—I’m a Christian— we’ve been taught that in faith-based spaces, if you give you’ll receive. That’s not always the case. It actually already puts you in the place of a false motive of life is like a genie in a bottle that I can just rub. And if I rub it like this, something’s going to pop out, and this is going to be my return on the investment I made.” (17:10 | Jahmaal Marshall)“Are you an introvert or are you just into hurt? Do you have hurt and pain that is not processed that is causing you to turtle your way through life to play it safe. There are people who are actually introverts, but you have a lot of people who are extroverts masquerading as an introvert to protect themselves from pain that has not been processed.” (29:02 | Jahmaal Marshall) LinksConnect with Jahmaal Marshall:https://listenthenspeak.com/ https://mindsetmastermethod.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/jahmaalmarshall/ https://topmate.io/jahmaal_marshallConnect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“I don’t want to convince you that whenever we finish working, you should be dancing, pirouetting on clouds in ballet slippers,” host Caitlin Donovan explains on this solo episode of FRIED, where she talks about managing expectations from burnout recovery work, particularly the program FRIED offers lead by her partner Sarah Vosen. In a space that, largely for marketing purposes, will promise that you’ll come out the other side of recovery feeling nothing but joy forever after, Cait offers some refreshing transparency about what she offers, why she specifically only offers short-term help, and the seemingly simple outcomes that will completely change your quality of life. Health, peace, productivity, improved communication–these are all huge things made all the more sweet for having recovered from burnout. Yet, recovery doesn’t mean a life free from problems. Cait explains her reasoning behind only offering short-term coaching and why Sarah stopped offering coaching packages. There is no one, perfect way to be coached or to find your way out of burnout. The best first step is to get clear about your goals and the results you yourself want to achieve. Quotes“I can’t promise you that we’re going to go from burned out to blissed out. I can’t promise you that you’re going to go from burned out to fired up. I can’t promise you that you’re going to go from burned out to completely joyful and fulfilled. I don’t even think that’s what we’re aiming for.” (2:10 | Caitlin Donovan)“This initial three-month kick is just to get you out of the muck.” (3:58 | Caitlin Donovan)“Getting clarity around those goals and what those results should be for you is more important than my telling you you’re going to have fulfillment and be joyful and have bliss.” (6:47 | Caitlin Donovan)“We’re not painting this magical picture of where you’re going to be. I want to share that with you because I want you to know how we’re thinking about it behind the scenes, how we’re thinking about you behind the scenes, and how we want to show up for you as honestly as we can—I mean, this is pretty honest—in a space that often feels a little disingenuous.” (8:06 | Caitlin Donovan) “Coaching, therapy, healing—it’s not magical. It’s messy. It definitely leads to a better life—there’s no way I would want the life I had back then compared to the life I have now. But am I skating through life without problems? No. Do I never feel resentment? Jesus—hell, no. I’m still human. You’re still going to be human after going through this process.” (8:56 | Caitlin Donovan) LinksConnect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“How are we not supposed to burn out? That’s what our culture wants us to do: produce, make and do until we can’t anymore,” says Dr. Erin Hinson who, with Dr. Kristen Donnelly, joins the FRIED podcast to discuss the origins of burnout culture in the United States. Early religious tenets have formed our attitude toward hard work and individualism, those tenets evolved into modern-day capitalism and the resulting false and damaging beliefs remain hard-baked into the American identity. Drawing from their bestselling book “The Culture of Burnout,” they’ll discuss the dangers of equating hard work with morality, basing one’s self worth on what they are able to produce and the myth of the lone conquering hero. While no one is immune from this type of social conditioning, female-identified and non-binary people tend to be targeted the most by this propaganda. Dr. Erin discusses caregiver burnout, the gender roles we perpetuate that we aren’t even aware of. Dr. Kristen points out the hypocrisy of American culture demanding we be individualistic while also telling us not to trust ourselves and the emotional bonds that are formed when we ask for help. We are not beholden to the stories our culture creates for us. With the tiny changes we make with each new day, we have the chance to write our own.Quotes“There are shades of this in other cultures all over the world, we are never going to say that America is the only culture that has burnout ever because that’s a lie that someone would use to sell more books and that’s not who we are. But what we will say is there’s a specific flavor of it here that’s so tied to the wellness industrial complex and the process of making money for other people that we need to call that out.” (10:25 | Dr. Kristen Donnelly) “How are we not supposed to burn out? We are supposed to burn out because that’s what the culture wants us to do. It wants us to produce until we can’t anymore. It wants us to make, it wants us to do, until we can’t anymore.” (12:12 | Dr. Erin Hinson) “America just thinks the myth of the individual hardworking hero is the archetype we should all live up to, and not only is it a lie, but it kills a lot of us every year.” (14:03 | Dr. Kristen Donnelly) “We are all just figuring it out as we go along and we can ask for help. We have to, because none of us know what we’re doing.” (38:04 | Dr. Kristen Donnelly)“I should figure it out, because I can. I should do it by myself because I don’t want to be a bother. That’s my thing. I don’t want to bother anybody. Everybody else is stressed out; everybody else is busy. I don’t want to be stressful, I don’t want to be a bother. I didn’t realize how deeply ingrained that was until we wrote this book.” (44:33 | Dr. Erin Hinson)LinksConnect with Dr. Kristen Donnelly & Dr. Erin Hinson:https://www.abbey-research.com http://www.instagram.com/abbeyresearch https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristendonnellyphd https://www.linkedin.com/in/erinhinsonphdConnect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“You’re going to have to surrender and have patience and be ready and willing to be annoyed.” On today’s episode of FRIED, Sarah Vosen and Cait review some of the common reasons why your burnout recovery may not be working, or not working as fast as you’d like. First off—you may be overdoing it, which is the exact kind of perfectionistic approach that burned you out in the first place. You have to be open to doing things differently and going at a slower pace than you may be used to. If you’re expecting to make progress using the usual self-care tricks on Instagram and TikTok, you’re in for disappointment. Instead, Cait and Sarah will share with you what will actually get you back on track to the other side of burnout.Burnout recovery is a convalescent period. Your environment—physical, home, work, family, and relationships— can make or break your process. Sarah and Cait will explain how to put yourself first, why treating yourself in the smallest ways makes a world of difference, and why you shouldn’t do this alone. Sarah will share the physiological change that she describes as “miraculous” and that sped up her recovery journey overnight, and reveal the emotional state that has recently been determined to be worse for your health than smoking. You have to believe there is another, better life waiting for you once you recover from burnout. Join Cait and Sarah as they help you remove the obstacles that may be blocking your path. Quotes“The recovery mode is a healing process. There’s a lot of repair that needs to occur to your body, mind, and spirit in the very beginning. You have to basically convalesce. That’s a tough one to go from running on adrenaline to convalescing. So it’s going to feel like shit, and it’s going to be awkward, and you’re not going to like it and you might not be able to do it at first.” (7:14 | Sarah Vosen and Cait Donovan) “It’s too big of a jump. You go from not having yourself in the equation of your life to trying to be Number 1 in your life? It’s too much change at one time. There’s too much guilt involved in that, there’s too much fear of disappointing all those people you’ve been trying to help for all those years. You’re worried they’re all going to turn on you and so there’s all this negative reinforcement in your mind about giving yourself what you need.” (9:58 | Sarah Vosen)“Small environmental changes, you might not think they matter that much, but they are critical.” (20:56 | Cait Donovan)“We talked about ‘other care.’ Sometimes you have to outsource some of this—and not just coaching and therapy—the physical care of your body has to be outsourced to someone.” (28:31 | Cait Donovan)“Loneliness increases your risk of mortality by 40 percent. I could not believe that statistic when I heard it. Loneliness is now considered more detrimental than smoking.” (31:28 | Sarah Vosen) “Recovery requires taking off the blinders or having someone support you who doesn’t have blinders on who says, ‘Oh, no. There’s a world of possibility for you. Let me offer you an exit pathway from this life with blinders on to one that actually works for you.’” (36:02 | Sarah Vosen) LinksConnect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“I’m in recovery from recovery,” explains Colleen Kachmann, Certified Master Life and Recovery Coach who joins the podcast to share her story of dealing with alcohol and burnout, and give new insight into the current understanding of and attitude toward addiction. For years, while playing the role of perfect mother, wife, career woman and volunteer, Colleen was also a self-described heavy day drinker. After joining Alcoholics Anonymous she found herself “indoctrinated” into believing that she was powerless over alcohol. An incident at a family dinner led to the realization that actually, we are all in control of ourselves and our lives. Through self-directed neuroplasticity and nervous system regulation, we can change the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. She has since founded “Recover with Colleen” where she teaches women who are “lost in the weeds” with alcohol to pursue mental health, happiness and a connection with their power and purpose rather than sobriety. On today’s episode of FRIED, she’ll describe what she calls “emotional sobriety.” She’ll explain how to develop a growth mindset, break out of victim mentality and learn to stop leading with “I can’t.” She’ll reveal what we’re really afraid of when we start to think of the worst-case scenario in the face of making change and what happens when we deal with “what is” instead of “what if.” It’s not about the alcohol, Colleen explains. Join today’s discussion to take the first step toward standing in your power. Quotes“I raised my children, I taught hot yoga, I taught aerobics, I was a health coach, I was all the things—I volunteered, I worked, I was a good ex-wife and a good new wife and all the things to all the people. So, you can see burnout coming there because I was very perfectionistic about my life. And I had this idea that I was getting away with my drinking.” (4:36 | Colleen Kachmann) “I became a perfect sober person. I was still playing the alcohol game. My life revolved around the topic of alcohol, but I had to switch teams. Now I’m team sober.” (7:09 | Colleen Kachmann)“I believe that when we realize that everything we do is actually a choice, now we can choose from a place of power.” (16:57 | Colleen Kachmann) “We don’t have to make our kids [lives] better. I think the truth underneath that story is we’ve lost ourselves in our kids, it’s been easier to just do the things for everybody else because we can hold our breath longer, and, ‘Oh, look, here’s a bottle of wine. So, I’ll just exchange my needs for some drink tickets, and shut the hell up. I can do that, just give me another drink.’” (28:08 | Colleen Kachmann)“We think we’re scared of having to live in an apartment after we get the divorce from the big house, or that we can’t do things. But actually you’re afraid of the story you’re going to tell yourself, that you’re starting over, that you failed, that you just lost your whole life or everything was meaningless behind you and you’ve wasted your time. It’s those stories that we’re afraid of.” (31:08 | Colleen Kachmann) LinksConnect with Colleen Kachmann:https://recoverwithcolleen.com/ https://www.instagram.com/recoverwithcolleen/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenkachmann/ https://recoverwithcolleen.com/accelerated-recovery-masterclass/6Connect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“Why is it that two people can be in the same exact environment, at the same job, and one person burns out and another person doesn’t?” And not only does that other person not burn out, they thrive?” Well, as it turns out, just like everyone needs a certain amount of sun protection factor (SPF) to protect them from the harmful effects of the sun, so does everyone have their own BPF—burnout protection factor. On today’s solo episode of FRIED, Cait explains how we can build up our own BPFs within the six burnout factors— Work, Self, Health, Family, Overall Culture and Environment. For example, a BPF in the category of work would be feeling like you are well-sourced and well-supported. She’ll share why being in nature, having a regular sleep schedule, and fixing those little things around the house that you put off all do wonders for building up your protection factors. She’ll also explain the importance of sincere communication between family members and why what we think are our protection factors are very often our risk factors. By building your protection factor against burnout, you will find you have more to offer the world. By lifting yourself up, you also lift up those around you, and, ultimately, your community. Quotes“Why is it that two people can be in the same exact environment, at the same job, and one person burns out and another person doesn’t? And not only does that other person not burn out, they thrive.” (2:09 | Caitlin Donovan) “For some reason, those of us who need more burnout protection factors, seem to think we don’t need any protection from anything ever at all and we can do everything ourselves and if we’re just perfect then we’ll be fine. We think that perfectionism and people-pleasing are our burnout protection factors, but in fact, they are burnout risk factors. They create more vulnerability for us.” (6:02 | Caitlin Donovan) “There is zero judgment involved in this. It’s the same as SPF: some people need 4, some people need 50. It’s just your build. It’s fine.” (7:49 | Caitlin Donovan)“During those times when you are sacrificing for something or putting up with something that you are not willing to change, you need to up your BPFs to balance it out.” (17:55 | Caitlin Donovan)Linkshttps://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/julie-menanno-secure-love-attachment-needs-burnout-and-your-relationships-with-everythinghttps://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/straightfromcait-burnout-risk-factors-a-holistic-viewhttps://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/straightfromcait-start-your-burnout-recovery-by-taking-the-good-plateConnect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“How you take command of the narrative is what’s going to see you through when you begin to determine what parts, if any, of the story you want to tell.” John Neral, executive and career transition coach, and host of the Mid-Career GPS podcast, joins FRIED to discuss how best to address gaps that burnout leaves in your resume when interviewing with a potential new employer. The first step is removing any shame and recognizing your own power in the process—you are evaluating the company just as much as they’re evaluating you. Using the Four Fs—Fit, Function, Finance, Forward—John advises the questions to ask to determine your values and whether they match the company’s, how to negotiate your best compensation package, and why you should be thinking two steps ahead. He’ll tell you when to take the conversation deeper and as well as how to avoid wasting both parties’ time. How do those with rejection sensitivity dysmorphia, or those who are still recovering from burnout create the best outcome for both the short term and the long term? Listen as John tells a story about the rude comment one HR executive made that determined his decision of whether to work with the company and his very New Jersey response in return. Quotes“We grew up thinking, ‘Oh, my gosh. They’re going to bless me with an interview. I have to be good and I can’t offend them and I can’t—we don’t want to offend anyway—but I can’t upset them and if I ask this question, what are they going to think?’ Some of the best compliments, Cait, when I was interviewing for jobs, that I ever got, were when somebody on the interview panel would look at someone and say, ‘I feel like I’m the one being interviewed,’ and I would say, ‘Well, you are.’” (8:17 | John Neral) “Oftentimes we think, ‘Oh, gosh. Now, we’re going to talk about money.’ Now battle lines are drawn, it’s them versus us —no, it’s not. Round the edges off. It’s a conversation. ‘This is what I want. Can we make this up here? What about this?’ If anything, it’s an opportunity for you to get really curious, to know what you want but get really curious because how the company negotiates with you at that point is also going to tell you a lot about their culture.” (27:59 | John Neral)“Oftentimes, job seekers will look at going for a job as an immediate solution or quick fix of getting them out of a situation they’ve been in. ‘I work for a toxic employer. I haven’t had a job, I just have to accept something and move on.’ When people aren’t thinking forward about forward, what happens is this decision becomes very isolative. ‘I’ve checked the box, so now what?’” (32:06 | John Neral)“Career gaps and break are not as stigmatized or biased as what they were pre-pandemic.”(39:56 | John Neral)“This is what I needed, this is what I did, here’s what I learned, here’s what I gained, here’s why this is of value to you. Take that gap and turn it back to, ‘Here’s why I’m a better leader, a better employer, here’s what it is that I’ve done.” (43:00 | John Neral) LinksConnect with John Neral:Website: https://johnneral.comInstagram: https://instagram.com/johnneralcoachingLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnneral/Checklist: https://www.johnneral.com/signupConnect with Cait:Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcaitInitial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahvPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm