EP 306 The Profound Power of Movement and How it can Support Conception | Desiree Bartlett

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Sonia Ribas @soniaribascoach shares her journey from a marketing executive to a fertility coach, emphasizing the importance of holistic approaches to fertility. She discusses common challenges faced by individuals trying to conceive, the often unnecessary reliance on IVF, and the critical role of personalized treatment plans. Sonia highlights the impact of oxidative stress on fertility and the significance of mindfulness and community support in the fertility journey. Her insights aim to empower individuals and couples navigating the complexities of fertility.   Takeaways:   Sonia transitioned from a marketing executive to a fertility coach after discovering her passion for holistic health. Many individuals seek help too late in their fertility journey, often after failed IVF attempts. Statistically, 50% of IVF cases may not be necessary, highlighting the need for proper preparation. A holistic approach to fertility considers physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual factors. Oxidative stress negatively impacts egg and sperm quality, making lifestyle changes essential. Personalization in treatment is crucial; what works for one person may not work for another. Mindfulness practices can help manage stress, which can be harmful to fertility health. Community support is vital; many women feel isolated in their fertility struggles. Education and actionable steps are key components of effective fertility coaching.   Guest Bio:   Sonia Ribas, MBA, HHC, RYT Sonia is a sought-after LA based Fertility Coach and a Mom of 3. In her last 15+ years, she has successfully coached thousands of couples struggling to conceive. Her highly personalized, transformational and integrative lifestyle-based approach, which covers everything from nutrition to wellbeing, makes her an expert guide in her clients’ path towards Parenthood. She helps couples 1on1, in groups and in collaboration with Fertility Clinics around the world, in order to help patients boost their fertility from every possible angle and maximize their chance of conceiving, both naturally and via IVF.   Besides helping couples conceive healthy babies, she is a wellness educator and extremely passionate about inspiring people around the world to lead healthy lifestyles. She constantly collaborates with International lifestyle media outlets and companies as a consultant, speaker, educator and expert Health Coach.    You can find her at soniaribas.com and on Social Media @soniaribascoach.     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle’s latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Sonia.   Sonia Ribas (00:02) Thank you so much, Michelle.   Michelle (00:04) Yes, I would love for you to share your story of how you got into this work that you do.   Sonia Ribas (00:11) Okay. Yeah, let's go for it. So I always say, sometimes you find things in life. Sometimes things find you. In my case, fertility found me. So in my previous life, as I like to call it, I was marketing executive and director for multinationals. And then I found yoga and I fell in love with hot yoga at the time to the point that I left my job and I went travel the world.   and I created one of the first online yoga studios in the world. And as I was doing that, yeah. And I was, was doing that occasionally. I was also teaching private sessions and, I was living in Boston at that time and I had a client who was originally from India and she was my yoga student and she was great. And then she was relocated back to India. And then she called me and she said,   Michelle (00:45) cool.   Sonia Ribas (01:06) Hey, my OBGYN says I'm not going to be able to have children and I'm devastated. And I was like, wow. And she said, you're the only person I trust. And I was like, well, wait a second. Like I'm not a fertility person, you know? Like I'm into healthy lifestyle. I'm a yoga instructor. I know a thing or two about these things because I follow it, but not fertility. And she said, Sonia, you're the only person I trust. So.   Michelle (01:32) Wow.   Sonia Ribas (01:33) This is 15 years ago. So I teamed up with my mother, who's a traditional Chinese doctor in Spain. And we teamed up together and we put together a holistic program. That was the very, very first version of what I do today. And, you know, we created meditation videos, yoga videos, lots of herbs, supplements, diet, lots of mindset tools and things like that. Things that we were coming up with. And I did a lot of research as well.   to understand, you know, I'm a research nerd, so to understand what works, what's proven, et cetera. So we created the first version for her and her labs improved a lot and she got pregnant naturally. So her OBGYN in India started referring people my way.   Michelle (02:16) All right.   Sonia Ribas (02:22) So yeah, the rest is history. So I started informally doing fertility coaching without being certified. My mom was helping me, but at some point my mom said, you know, I have a full practice in Spain. I think it's time for you to go on your own. So this was 15 years ago. So obviously fast forward, I got certified. I became a health coach and I got a lot of certificates in medicine and women's health and a lot more. And then   I started practicing fertility coaching 15 years ago, then I had three kids of my own. So I perfected my method with obviously my own experience. And yeah, by now we've helped make more than a thousand babies.   Michelle (03:08) Amazing, that's incredible. So cool.   So what are some of the common things that you see when people come to you for fertility? Like some of the common stories that people share on their journey I know that's a big question, but whatever comes first.   Sonia Ribas (03:27) Totally. So what I wish I would see, first I'm going to tell you what I wish and then the reality is, because sometimes it helps understand what I wish I would see is I wish I would see more people come earlier. So I always use the analogy of a wedding, know, the same way as you prepare for a wedding. And if you think I'm going to get married, you don't just show up in your sweatpants at your wedding, right? You prepare, you get a dress, you prepare a set, you know, you get the whole thing going.   Michelle (03:41) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Sonia Ribas (03:57) I wish it would be the same for having a baby because there's a lot of things that we would prepare in advance. There wouldn't be so many headaches and so many heartaches. Now, the reality is that I see people when they're on the desperate side, when they've been trying for a while and it has the journeys longer than they anticipated or when they've been told IBF is their only option.   Michelle (04:14) Mm-hmm.   Sonia Ribas (04:23) or even worse when they've tried IVF or IUI and it didn't work and then they come to me as a better alternative, more empowered version to get pregnant.   Michelle (04:35) And you say you had mentioned that you think that many times in many cases, people don't really need IVF. What has your experience been with that?   Sonia Ribas (04:46) So statistically, 50 % of IVF cases are not needed. So that right there tells you what happens, right? So a lot of people are thrown into IVF because that's the nature of the Western medical approach to fertility. In some cases, it works. In many cases, it doesn't work. And when it doesn't work, most of the times it's because the person was unprepared or the couple was unprepared or because it was not needed.   So I always say, I always use the analogy of a car. So if your car doesn't work, what do you do? You take it to the mechanic and the mechanic tries to jumpstart the battery. So that's IVF. IVF is jumpstarting your system. You might or might not be ready for it. It might or it might not work, but the process is very expensive, very invasive, and it has side effects potentially for the rest of your life. So it's not something to take lightly.   Michelle (05:19) Mm-hmm.   Sonia Ribas (05:42) It's not like, hey, I'm going to get my whatever. It's not like I'm going to get my teeth cleaned. No, it's an invasive thing. So what I say is going back to the analogy of the car, if your car doesn't work, you can take it to the mechanic, you can open the motor and have a look. Clean whatever needs to be cleaned, repair whatever needs to be repaired so that when you try to switch it on, it will switch on without being jump-started. It will switch on natural.   So this is what we do here. And I always say to people, hey, if down the line, it hasn't happened naturally and you want to continue trying IVF, by that time you'll be ready. Look, I always go back to statistics. IVF without preparation is about a 20 % success rate. IVF with the proper preparation and optimizing your system is an 85 % success rate. So if you're going to throw yourself into this process,   At least prepare yourself so you can optimize your chances of success.   Michelle (06:46) And what are some of the things that you see that people need when they come to you? Like, What are some of the more common things that you see?   Sonia Ribas (06:56) So we here, we leave no stone unturned because everybody needs a combination of factors and everybody is really different. So for some people, it's more the physical side. For other people, it's more the mental, the past traumas, the blockages, the limiting beliefs energetically. So we leave no stone unturned. We cover everything from the physical layer, the mental, the emotional, the energetic, and the spiritual layer. So we have a holistic approach.   to fertility, which I love your podcast is wholesome because we use that word all the time as well.   Michelle (07:31) Yes, for sure. mean, there's so many different layers. Some of the things that I personally see is a lot of people are given diagnosis and I guess in the journey, it's very easy to get a lot of limiting labels thrown at you. And I really say thrown at you. mean, I was one of them. had my own issues with my menstrual cycle.   growing up, but not realizing that I had other option. And I think that a lot of times is that people don't realize that they have options and they don't realize or aren't really told along the way, unless they find the right person, that there are alternatives and things that they could do to improve their state. I think that that was, that's the biggest hurdle is just really not even knowing anything else exists.   Sonia Ribas (08:25) Absolutely. Yeah, so a lot of the things we do is education because people obviously you don't know and people go to Dr. Google, which is probably the last thing you should be doing because it's nerve-wracking. So we do a lot of education, but we step a lot into action. We're very, very action and results oriented. I always say to my clients, we are here for transformation. And if we are here for transformation, we need to combine information,   plus action. So everything we offer here is very, very action oriented, whether it's on the diet side and we roll up our sleeves and we create personalized diets for our clients. But also, for example, on the movement side, we give them a lot of tools. Like it's not just, go move and go exercise, but we give them a lot of exercise videos, yoga videos, strength training, like all the tools they can actually go and implement with real actionables.   Michelle (09:24) And when you talked about percentage of improvement for IVF, if you're prepared versus not prepared, is that anything specific to your work or something that you've seen? How do you base that?   Sonia Ribas (09:38) No. Yeah. So that's kind of like statistics that we draw in our practice. mean, the fact that IVF is around a 20 % success rate is known. That's not something that I've decided. That's something that's published. Obviously, it depends on the age brackets and all that, but we can call it an average. And then what I see is I have a lot of people who've tried IVF, and they come my way after a number of failed rounds of IVF.   Michelle (09:43) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Sonia Ribas (10:06) And then we can draw statistics of like, from these people, how many people then have a successful IVF after? And it's about 85%.   Michelle (10:13) Yeah, that's awesome. it's good to know. I'm curious because I'm a little bit of a numbers nerd myself and I like to kind of get like data and I hearing just things even with like studies and so kind of jogged my curiosity. That's awesome and I agree. I do Chinese medicine. I also do fertility coaching, but ultimately,   Sonia Ribas (10:19) Me too.   Michelle (10:35) when you do make these changes in your lifestyle, you really can optimize a lot of your wellbeing, but it's almost like you're the way I see it is you're triggering an anti-aging because that's really what fertility is. It's kind of like anti-aging treatment. If you think about it, it's the same thing. It's just really optimizing your health, optimizing your mitochondria and your body's energy so that it's able to   Sonia Ribas (10:52) Right? Yes.   Michelle (11:02) produce, reproduce, but that's ultimately like turning back the clock, which we can actually do. something that you can actually do with lifestyle, which is why I find it so empowering in general. I find that a lot of people also feel that it's not just empowering for conceiving, but it's empowering as they get older as well.   Sonia Ribas (11:12) Yes.   Yes, yes, exactly. So what we do here is reverse the effects of oxidative stress. So as you say, it's kind of like the anti-aging version of fertility.   Michelle (11:36) And what are some of the things that you find or some of the ways you approach that just for people listening that are curious, like, cause some people know, you know, that that can impact equality as we age, oxidative stress gets higher, but some people might not, you know, it might be like new terms if they're just listening to this now and they're first starting this journey. so let's kind of break it down for the listeners if they're hearing this and why it's so impactful for   not just egg quality, but for sperm quality as well.   Sonia Ribas (12:09) Yes, there's a massive difference though. obviously as you age, oxidative stress happens. It's the byproduct of being alive. It's funny because my dad always said, you know, when my dad drinks or something and I say, hey, dad, this kills you. He says, you know what? Living kills me. Being alive means that you are subject to the process of oxidative stress. Everybody's subject to that. Now there's a difference between egg and sperm. Eggs,   Michelle (12:27) Mm-hmm.   Sonia Ribas (12:38) You are born with your set of eggs. I cannot take out your eggs and replace them. They are there. We can do a lot of things to optimize their functioning, optimize their quality. As you said, optimize the mitochondria and make them fitter and stronger and better working, but they're the same. Now, sperm on the other side is regenerated all the time. The sperm that's ejaculated today is not the sperm that will be ejaculated tomorrow or in three weeks.   That's why it's a lot easier. In my experience, it's a lot easier to improve sperm quality than egg quality. But we can work on both and we definitely have great success on both. But every time that I get a couple that have a combination of factors, I always look at the male and I say, okay, you're on the lucky side. If you do this program, I can guarantee for sure that your sperm will improve no matter what.   Michelle (13:39) So let's talk about the egg quality and how oxidative stress impacts the egg quality and like what people can do, generally speaking to improve their quality of eggs.   Sonia Ribas (13:44) Okay, yeah.   Okay, great. So how it impacts egg quality is, well, it's in a number of ways, but primarily two very strong ways. One of them is genetically. It affects the DNA structure of your cells, including the DNA structure of your eggs. So when your eggs produce embryos, it might be that the embryos are genetically not normal. So that's when we see genetic things happen, even not viable.   So that's one thing that happened. The other thing that is very visible that happens is that the mitochondria, which is the energy factories of the cells, get affected. So they're not as strong. This is why we recommend supplements like CoQ10, for example, to boost the functioning of the mitochondria. Now, what do we do holistically in this program to optimize that quality? It's one of my favorite topics in the world. Thanks for asking me that. So it's a holistic approach.   We boost fertility, we boost equality from every possible angle, everything lifestyle-based and everything is research-based here. So everything we offer here has been proven at some point by research papers. So we work on 15 factors. So my program is 15 modules plus a bonus module, that's male factor. So for 15 modules, we deep dive into 15 areas of your lifestyle.   that need to be optimized because they're strictly related to fertility. So if you optimize those areas of your lifestyle, you are boosting your fertility and your egg quality no matter what. And those are, there's a physical layer, there's a mental layer, emotional layer, energetic layer, and spiritual layer. So we combine things like diet, hydration, supplements, weight management, movement. We talk about inner dialogue, emotions.   cortisol, stress, everything that happens related to your stress hormones, sleep patterns, circadian rhythms, your relationships, your toxic relationships, your conflict, your libido, your sex drive, your relationship, your connection to your partner, environmental toxins, empowerment, your connection to your inner power, limiting beliefs, empowering self-affirmations, meditations, cycle syncing. also do   sit cycling, and then connecting to your group. So I think it's very important. And that's something we never talk about, which is like, can throw a lot of things at you. But if we don't find your version of what I'm talking about, it's not going to work. So that's why it's very important, the concept of bio-individuality, which means a person's food is another person's poison. Right?   Michelle (16:34) Yeah, it's true.   100%.   Sonia Ribas (16:45) Everything needs to be personalized to you because we are here to deliver results for you, not for your neighbor. So what works for your neighbor and your cousin might be very different. Some people have night shifts. Some people have preferences on food. Some people have cravings. Some people turn to different things to deal with emotions. Some people have past trauma, most of us. Like all of this is very, very personal. So what I'm very fascinated about and obsessed about is   Michelle (16:53) my god, so true.   Sonia Ribas (17:15) How do we go in the trenches with our clients? How do we help them land all the recommendations into their real life so that we can truly move the needle for them?   Michelle (17:28) Yeah, I love that. It's so true because that is something that I often see is, especially when they first come to us because they're like, you know, my best friend, she also struggled with fertility. She tried this herb and it helped her. And I wanted to try it too, or somebody else tried DHEA, which is a hormone and I want to try it too. And it is a hormone and it is something that I always recommend never take anything like that.   unless you get tested and see what's going on in your body. Because for one person, it could be amazing. It could be a game changer. But if your body has a completely different makeup and imbalance of hormones, it can actually be detrimental. So I'm really glad that you brought that up because everybody's so unique. literally are like, our bodies are like fingerprints. And I love that saying one man's food is another man's poison. It's 100 % true.   Like somebody can thrive, actually dairy has been shown to help with many women who are trying to conceive full fat. It's been shown in studies. I'm also a nerd with that. Like I love that because it's true. Like then you could see, okay, for the majority, yeah, it can actually be really beneficial. However, if you have a dairy sensitivity or an allergy or it causes more inflammation, or as in Chinese medicine, we look at like dampness.   which is an element, I'm sure your mom has taught you about that. Then if that's the case, that would not be great for that particular person. it's so important for people to realize that, yes, you listen to podcasts and you read about it and you go down like Dr. Google, as you said, and you can learn a lot of things. However, your body is so unique and your body needs a customized plan.   Sonia Ribas (19:03) Thanks.   Yes, absolutely. And even a step further, your body today is different than your body in two weeks because you are a woman and you are in the waves of your menstrual cycle. So if you're ovulating today, you'll feel strong, you'll feel energetic, you'll feel social. And in two weeks, as you're about to menstruate, you'll feel like a completely different person.   Michelle (19:33) Yes, that's true.   Sonia Ribas (19:52) And that's something I like to talk about because I get a lot of men kind of like asking me how true this is, how is PMS real? Is she making it up? you know, they just, because they're flat, they don't understand the fluctuations of hormones. And I do a lot of education on that, on cycle syncing, how this is real and how life is a lot easier if you serve the waves of your cycle.   instead of fighting it or instead of just acting as if it doesn't exist.   Michelle (20:24) Totally. I call that just kind of personal flow. In Chinese medicine, we do a lot of like physical flow with the meridians and our qi. But when we have flow in our life, that's really what it looks like. It's really understanding, not fighting, kind of going with that, riding those waves. So yeah, I totally agree.   Awesome. And so what are some of the, love talking also about the mind and how stress can impact our bodies. I understand this from a Chinese medicine perspective. I also, we know that when we're in fight or flight, basically the energy rich blood rich areas are going to be our arms and legs or limbs so that we can either fight or run. And it takes it away from our vital organs and including the uterus. So   let's talk about that. Let's talk about how stress can impact fertility and why it's so important to address that aspect of ourselves.   Sonia Ribas (21:27) Okay. I love, this is one of my favorite topics. So when it comes to stress, I always say there's two kinds of stress. There's useful stress and there's chronic stress, which is not useful. So stress is a natural response and it's actually very useful response to danger and to situations in life that need for you to be pumped with certain hormones called disall adrenaline to react.   Like if there's a lion about to chase me, I need to experience stress so that I can react and save my life, right? I need to run or hide or something, right? So that's useful. And in certain situations in life, that's very useful. Now we have in our modern society normalized a stressful feeling to the point that because we have deadlines, have infertility problems, we have a lot of things going on.   Our body is constantly in alert as if a lion's about to chase me every five minutes. So that's called chronic stress and that is highly inflammatory. So if you feel you're having that, which you probably are because we pretty much all have that, you need to find ways to release that cortisol. You know, because otherwise we have what we call a cortisol intoxication or a cortisol overload.   And cortisol is highly inflammatory, even excess. So you need to find ways to release it. And this is where we step into action. So for me, for example, I need to go workout to release stress. If I don't move, I can meditate and things like that, but it's not going to be the same as sweating it out. So I do hot yoga. Hot yoga is my thing. Right. For other people, it's different, you know, there's a lot of different ways. So.   Michelle (23:10) I love hot yoga. Yeah.   Sonia Ribas (23:19) If workout works for you, great. Meditation also works for a lot of people. And if you're not meditating, I get a lot of people tell me, that's not for me. Give it a chance because meditation does not need to be a full hour in Tibet. It can be 10 minutes, five minutes sitting on your bed and just like focus on your breath, diaphragmatic breathing. As you inhale, expand your belly.   As you exhale, you contract your belly and you connect to your breath. And that in itself sends your brain signal of, am safe. And you can activate your parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest. And that's where your reproductive function thrives. If, however, you're activating your sympathetic nervous system, which is your fight or flight, then your reproductive function won't be favorized.   Michelle (24:05) Yes.   Sonia Ribas (24:13) because your body will only favorize the functions that are essential for survival.   Michelle (24:19) Absolutely.   Sonia Ribas (24:20) So another way that I always tell people to activate your parasympathetic nervous system, so to release stress, is hugging. Hugging, a long hug, also does that. Also sends that signal to your brain of, am safe, I escaped the lion, everything's good. So that also works really well. And also hot and cold therapy.   So if you're stressed and you're like, my God, I don't know what to do with myself, go take a cold shower or a hot shower or combine both or take ice water or make yourself a hot tea. Like hot and cold therapy are very good as a way to release cortisol as well.   Michelle (25:06) Interesting. Yeah. mean, there's the cold plunges. There's I'm trying to look into that as far as fertility goes. Possibly might be good for men, but I'm not sure about women quite yet. Trying to do the research on that, but I do agree. Maybe it's kind of like that initial kind of shift from one state to another that sort of breaks up the stagnation.   Sonia Ribas (25:29) Yeah, it's the shocker. I knew you're going to say that because obviously in the traditional Chinese medicine, we don't want to be cold. And I grew up this way. You always want to be on the warmer side. I remember when my mom did her internship in Beijing, it was super hot, like 110 degrees. And everybody was drinking hot tea 24-7. And she was calling me like, I don't know if I can do this, like, hot tea.   Michelle (25:31) It's a shock, yeah.   Yes.   Yeah.   Sonia Ribas (26:00) But yeah, I know very well that that's a tradition. I grew up with that. And for me, cold water is a problem too. But what I do is I shock my system and I do hot, cold, hot, cold, and I always end with hot because I cannot walk out of my shower feeling cold. But I do think shocker.   Michelle (26:17) Yes, and also the shower is not as extreme as some of these cold plunges.   Sonia Ribas (26:22) That's true. That's true. Yeah, I do think the combination though is very, very interesting. But as we said, hey, bio individual.   Michelle (26:28) Right. It's like the yin and yang. We're kind of forcing a yin and yang balance in some way. Yeah.   Sonia Ribas (26:33) Exactly. Yeah. And also, you know, try it out. Like I always say to people, don't take my word for anything. Everything we talk about, try it out for yourself and see it in your own body, how it feels. Find your own version.   Michelle (26:44) Yeah, that's right. Totally. And I think that our bodies are just so intelligent and we're made of this intelligence and it always speaks to us. It speaks to us with food. It will guide you if you're really connecting with it, which is why I love meditation so much because it really brings us an awareness to that communication. It bridges, it almost like builds this neuron, this connection between us and our bodies.   that maybe we've ignored for so long and sort of forgot really was there. That's why I love mindfulness. But also what I love about really becoming mindful and meditation is it teaches us to become aware of our body. we can catch ourselves if we're getting too stressed out about certain things, we can catch ourselves and realize, hey, I'm not actually in danger right now.   and of realize that, and that mindfulness is what is kind of on guard to check, you know, your situation.   Sonia Ribas (27:50) Absolutely. I love that you're saying that. I love mindfulness. In my program, we call it heartfulness, actually, because it's all the mindfulness principles of being aware of what you're doing, of your surroundings, being very much there. But I call it heartfulness because I like to shift the focus from here, because we spend so much time here, to here. How does it feel? How does it feel to be here now?   Michelle (27:56) Ooh, I love that.   Yes.   Sonia Ribas (28:19) Okay, you're noticing everything, mindfulness and the added touch of the heart, the feeling, the savoring. I feel we need more savoring and we need to be more connected to that concept of savoring in life. And that's one of the things that I preach all the time.   Michelle (28:38) I love that because it's almost like bringing romance back into life, right? Cause it's like those moments, just savoring those moments and bringing more romance, which really, does that do? It's like infusing meaning into the moment. And there's more meaning, there's more richness. And if you think about just kind of how we used to live, I think of like, I don't know, a street in Paris where people are just sitting a lot longer to talk and eat and take their time and really tasting everything.   Sonia Ribas (28:42) I love that. Yeah, totally.   Michelle (29:05) I think that when you're doing that, you're really infusing kind of that chi life force energy into your moments in life, which ultimately I think impact your body.   Sonia Ribas (29:16) Yes, and fertility is about that. Fertility, a concept for me of fertility, the essence of boosting fertility is adding that boost of life into your life. More grace, more flow, more enjoying, more savoring, more being here, more embracing, empowering yourself.   Michelle (29:29) I love that.   Yeah, I love that. That's so true. mean, really, ultimately that's it's just a richness. It's kind of like living in an energy rich state, which ultimately, mean, that's it's kind of like just energy being really efficient and thriving through your body. And that's when your cup overflows, you're able to bring more life forth. And that's yeah. Also, I think that also when you're working in this work,   You start to see patterns and you start to see how clearly what's crazy about it is that in order to reproduce, we need all this energy, but like the fertility journey on its own can be so taxing and draining, which is why it's important to have somebody who understands it to guide you and to help you with that ultimately. And, or even a community or friends or connecting with others going through it, because I think that helps as well.   having that sense of support.   Sonia Ribas (30:37) Absolutely. Absolutely. You don't need to go through this alone. I think that some things in life are meant for you to do alone, some things are not. And fertility is definitely not one of them. I am always shocked when I read statistics that about 63 % of women with fertility problems never talk about it with anyone. It totally breaks my heart.   Michelle (30:47) Yeah.   That's sad. Yeah. see it too. mean, people, when they first come to my office, they're like, they feel so relieved. They're like, I can't really talk about this. Even with my husband sometimes, I'll say.   Sonia Ribas (31:09) Totally. Yeah, totally. They're so scared of ruining their marriage if they talk about it. And in my program, we combine private coaching with group coaching. And I have a lot of people at the beginning of the program who are unsure about the group coaching at the beginning. And they're like, I'm not sure, you know, it's kind of private. Then they give it a go. And then by the end of the program, when they give me feedbacks, I always ask for feedback at the end. They say, my God, the group sessions were the best. It's a group.   They call it a mouth hug. And feeling seen, feeling validated by women who are in the same season in life is so, so therapeutic.   Michelle (31:39) Yes. Yeah.   my God, yes, I've seen the same thing and I've seen people in the programs connecting and having lifelong relationships because afterwards I'll find out they're still in touch and it's amazing. Yeah, it's really, and I think that also we're meant to meet the right people at the right time, even people going through the same journey and they become really like lifelong friends.   Sonia Ribas (31:59) I think.   Exactly, exactly. Those people were meant to cross paths and to continue some journeys together. Absolutely.   Michelle (32:19) Yes, awesome. So if somebody's hearing this, is there like a word or a sentence or some kind of inspiring tip that you can provide? Somebody's going through it right now, going through the fertility journey and obviously going through the struggles that we all know are very real.   Sonia Ribas (32:37) Yes. So I think that my summary for today is you don't need to do this alone, especially this week. I'm very sensitive to this because I've seen a lot of people who have chosen to do this on their own and to continue struggling on their own. it totally breaks my heart. So in terms of your chances of success, in terms of how enjoyable this will be in terms of your own journey and your own experience, don't you ever think you need to do this alone? You know, there's help out there that can make it so much better for you.   and embrace it.   Michelle (33:10) Awesome. And so if people are hearing this and they want to find out more about you, how can they find you?   Sonia Ribas (33:16) Okay. So the two ways, easier ways to find me is my website, sonyarebus.com and my Instagram page, which is Sonia rebus coach.   Michelle (33:27) Awesome. So Sonia, thank you so much for coming on. I have all your information on the episode notes if anybody wants to find it. And this is a great conversation. I love that you're really into empowering couples. And ultimately, I think that that is so needed in this world. So thank you so much for coming on today.   Sonia Ribas (33:50) Thanks for having me, Michelle.    

Welcome to The Wholesome Fertility Podcast! Today, I'm addressing an important topic that has come up frequently in my office: fertility-friendly lubricants. Many people don’t realize that certain lubricants can negatively affect sperm movement and reduce the chances of conception.   In this episode, I discuss the common issue of vaginal dryness, especially when using fertility medications like Clomid or Letrozole, and how this can be an added challenge for those trying to conceive. I also explore natural ways to boost cervical mucus production, including staying hydrated and making dietary adjustments to improve moisture levels in the body. Additionally, I’ll be highlighting fertility-friendly lubricant brands such as Pre-Seed and Good Clean Love, and why choosing products that mimic natural cervical mucus is so crucial.    If you’re trying to conceive, this information will help you optimize your chances and ensure you’re not unknowingly using something that could hinder your fertility.   Takeaways: Avoid harmful lubricants: Most standard lubricants can be toxic to sperm or slow their movement, which can impact conception. Natural cervical mucus is ideal: Keeping hydrated and consuming foods rich in omega-3s and antioxidants like vitamin C can help increase your body’s natural moisture levels. Fertility-friendly lubricants to consider: Products like Pre-Seed, Good Clean Love, and Premom are formulated to be sperm-friendly and closely mimic natural cervical mucus. Vaginal dryness and medications: Fertility medications such as Clomid and Letrozole may cause dryness, making it important to find safe solutions that support sperm health.     Check out Michelle’s latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Today I'm going to be talking about something that I have not talked about yet, but it is an important topic because I've had a lot of people in my office come in and ask me about the specific topic. And a lot of times it is very important when it comes to fertility because People often don't realize that there are certain things that can actually be harming your fertility. So stay tuned because you're not going to want to miss this. So today I'm going to be talking about lubricants. This is actually a very common thing that people use lubricants and they don't realize that the majority of lubricants are actually not great for sperm. They're either toxic for sperm or they can impact how the sperm travels and slow down the traveling and fertilization of the egg. [00:01:00] So when it comes to fertility. It's a completely different ballgame, and it's really important to choose lubricants, if necessary, that are sperm friendly. So today I will be talking all about that. So first of all, I wanted to start out by saying, talking about why women can be dry, and sometimes it really is a cervical mucus thing, and And where it comes to cervical mucus, there are definitely things that you can do to impact cervical mucus naturally, but not just cervical mucus. It's also when taking certain fertility medications such as Clomid or Letrozole, those two medications can impact vaginal dryness as well. And this can be extremely frustrating when people are trying to conceive and women are having to have the difficulty and discomfort of vaginal dryness. And at the same time also timed [00:02:00] intercourse. So it kind of puts a whole other challenge to the whole challenging situation to begin with.   So according to fertility and sterility, Vaginal dryness has actually been reported in about at least 46 percent of all reproductive aged women, which is actually really high considering. So this is really important because when it comes to baby making, it's really important that a woman feels comfortable because if a woman is dry, it can cause more irritation. It can even cause bleeding. And we don't want that because when that's the case, then you're feeling more stress in really trying to conceive. So many times people will want to find lubricants and they'll find things that are over the counter or certain products that they don't realize are actually harming the sperm. So they're using this and I've had people come in and say that they've dealt with it. the discomforts of vaginal dryness[00:03:00] and didn't really realize, but for the whole time they've been trying and sometimes it's close to a year they've been using lubricants that are not necessarily great for the sperm and didn't even realize it. So this is why I find it so important in the podcast and in general to give information to people because many times nobody really tells you this stuff. You really think that, okay, what's the big deal? It shouldn't make a difference, but it really does. And the same thing also with figuring out the fertile window. All of these things are typically not things that you learn, not in school and oftentimes not even at the doctor's office. So it is really important to understand your body and understand really like how to optimize your fertile window and how to optimize your chances of conceiving and what those certain things are that can impact. that process. So like mentioned before, [00:04:00] a lot of these lubricants can impact sperm movement and impact how sperm is able to fertilize. And this can obviously be an issue because the sperm needs something that's similar to the cervical mucus, which is why the cervical mucus is so important because it It protects the sperm, but it also is created in a beautiful way to allow the sperm to move as fast as possible and most efficiently so that it is able to get to the egg and fertilize for conception.   Another thing that you want to look at is pH levels and if there's any chemicals in the lubricants that are harmful to sperm. So, ideally, you really want your own body's natural lubricant, which is cervical mucus. And there are a couple of things that you can do to improve that. And then I'll go over some other alternatives if that is not [00:05:00] working. But really what you want to do is increase your, in Chinese medicine speak, yin. Estrogen is a really important hormone in that process during the follicular phase that leads up to ovulation because estrogen is a very yin hormone. Yin is an aspect of the yin and yang that is more moist, more cooling, more feminine. So we want to bring in more moisture and we want to make sure that the body holds in that moisture. So there are definitely things that you can do to improve that and the first thing and it's the most obvious thing and I've seen it be the single handedly like the easiest way for people to improve cervical mucus is hydration. You would be shocked At how important it is to just hydrate because cervical mucus is majority is water. It really consists of water. And so if somebody is dehydrated and I've had a lot of people in the healthcare industry[00:06:00] that come in as patients, they just say they don't have time to drink. And I really push them on this because eventually they can actually shift that. It's just easier not to drink. So it's not that you can't drink. It's just that it. Tends to be easier and then it becomes a bad habit. So a lot of these people that are nurses, a lot of people that are dentists that are in the healthcare field don't really feel like they have an option. I work with them on that and they do change that. So it is possible. Anything's possible.   It's just a matter of putting a little more effort to get in the habit. We're just have water with you to just ensure that you're having it and also having water in the morning. , listen, you know, it might be a little inconvenient to have to go to the bathroom a couple of times extra, but it is really important and it really can impact your cervical mucus in a huge way. I've had people that have noticed vaginal dryness and that they've also had many times where [00:07:00]they were not seeing the same kind of cervical mucus that they used to see when they were younger. And all they did was increase the hydration. and that within a couple of months really shifted things and they started to see it. They actually saw when they wiped that they had more cervical mucus and more like egg white consistency on the peak days. So that is actually a very easy way to do this. And as a rule of thumb, you want to take whatever your weight is in pounds, take that number, divide that in half, and that amount in ounces is what you want you know, to drink every day. So say you're 120 pounds. So divide that by half, that's 60. So you take 60 ounces per day is the rule of thumb of water. And ideally you have that in containers that are not plastic. So either glass or stainless steel. And then also make sure to filter that [00:08:00] water. So you know, just kind of a side note, I always talk about that with my patients. So that's really, really important is to increase hydration and part of hydration also is not just water is from time to time to make sure that you're getting electrolytes as well. You also want healthy carbohydrates. So carbohydrates can also help and carbs can help the yin aspect of our body. So it helps your body absorb and , keep itself hydrated. So that you're able to retain a little bit more water because that water is important to retain in order to hydrate your body in many different ways, including cervical mucus. Another really important vitamin that impacts cervical mucus is actually vitamin C. And you can also increase citrus fruits in your diet. This is something that has been shown to improve. cervical mucus. So these are things that you want to do naturally. Ideally, if you could do things naturally, then you're using your own body's [00:09:00] natural lubricant, which is optimized for sperm health and to protect sperm and to help the chances of conception. So ideally you want to try to get it where your body's doing this. Another important antioxidant is vitamin E as well. And that can help regulate estrogen in your body.   You also want to get foods that are rich in omega 3s. Omega 3 fatty acids are really great for cervical mucus. And if you think about it, just oils in general, healthy oils. So, things like coconut oil that you're taking internally. I know some people use it physically, like as lubricant. I'm not a huge fan, but, Take things oils internally because when you're increasing those oils, which are very Yin substances, you're also improving your own body's ability to moisten itself. And you can also get, , those oils through nuts and [00:10:00] seeds, which are very rich in what we call in Chinese medicine, Jing. Jing is really fertile essence. It's really essence of the body. Okay. And if you think about seeds or nuts, they're basically seeds ready to sprout, which is ultimately like what egg and sperm are. So they're fertile, they're fertile by nature, and they have everything that they need and all the resources within it's the seed in order to fertilize and become fertile. So you want things in nature to borrow from so that it improves your own ability to fertilize as well, which of course is conception.   So, here are things to consider if you were to buy fertility friendly lubricants. So, you want to find something that's water based so that it doesn't decrease sperm motility  because that would be the most similar consistency to natural cervical mucus. You also want lubricants that are free[00:11:00] from parabens, fragrances, or any kind of chemicals, and ultimately to be the closest mimicking of natural cervical mucus.  And here are some brands that are the most fertility friendly. And the first one is precede fertility lubricant. You'll see that very often it's available on Amazon, many different places. And then also good clean love biogenesis fertility lubricant. Another one is conceived plus fertility lubricant. And there's also Nautilus, the lube lubricant. And there are many different ones that you'll see. You'll also see Lola, fertility friendly lube, penchant organic. So these are things that you want to definitely look up and make sure that it says fertility friendly. And I always recommend just do your own research and really look into it. Look at the [00:12:00] reviews and find what you think is best for you but ultimately, like I said before, the best thing that you can do is try to get your own natural lubricants going, especially during the fertile window. If you have that a little bit more than, And I also recommend having sex outside of the fertile window.   I often recommend that. And in that case, you don't have to worry quite as much. I still would use natural ones though, personally, because also when your body receives the sperm outside of the fertile window, then it will, lower its immunity so that you are able to receive the sperm because it's considered like an invader through the body.   So you're able to really lower the immune system, which typically would happen in the second part of the menstrual cycle, which is the luteal phase that you're able to receive the sperm. So the more access your body has, or the more interaction it has with a [00:13:00] sperm, even if it's outside of the fertile window into the luteal phase, the more it becomes open to receiving it. And another plus for that is just really being able to connect outside of the fertile windows so that there's no timing on it. And it really is something that you can put towards your relationship with your partner so you can have that connection. And ultimately that is such an important part of the whole process because I know so many people tell me.   And express how difficult it is to have to. put the pressure of timing and when they could do it. And when you open it up to more of a larger window outside of it, there's less added pressure and there's more time for connection. And as I mentioned this in my book, the way of fertility, which I highly recommend you check out because a lot of the things that I talk about are [00:14:00] all bundled up in there described perfectly because I repeat myself a lot. And this is one of the reasons I wrote the book is because I wanted to put all of my ideas and thoughts and all of my findings and lots of the information that I got from, , ancient wisdom and really the basis of Chinese medicine into a book where you can find it with exercises. But I talk about the connection between the partners and really having that connection because when you do have that connection and you really feel turned on, you will naturally also produce more natural lubricant.   So those are natural processes of the body, but it all starts with the mind. So a lot of it really starts psychologically and it's It's about connecting, opening the heart. So I talk a lot about that in the book. You can look at the episode notes to find out more on how to get that. And I will also list these fertility friendly lubricants that I mentioned in the episode[00:15:00] notes. And you can always reach out to me. on Instagram. I'm always there and my handle is at the wholesome Lotus fertility. If you have any questions you want to reach out, you can find me there. So thank you so much for tuning in today and I hope you have a beautiful day. 

In our conversation, Ylette shares her unique journey through motherhood, her connection with spirit babies, and the importance of intuition in the process of conception. She discusses her experiences with pregnancy, loss, and healing, emphasizing that these moments can also offer sacred element. Ylette also highlights the significance of community and support for women navigating their own journeys, encouraging them to trust their intuition and embrace their power.   Takeaways   Intuition plays a crucial role in understanding and connecting with spirit babies. Healing from past trauma is essential for creating a nurturing environment for new life. The experience of loss can be both painful and sacred, offering profound lessons. Surrendering to the process of conception can lead to unexpected outcomes. Building a supportive community is vital for women on their fertility journey. Trusting one's intuition is key to navigating the complexities of trying to conceive. Healing is a layered process that requires ongoing self-reflection and care. Nurturing oneself is essential for preparing to nurture a child.   Guest Bio:   Ylette is the visionary behind Xio by Ylette, a jewelry business that draws inspiration from her Latin roots and the enchanting magic of the cosmos. As an intuitive guide, she empowers women to reclaim their voices and rediscover their inner magic, allowing their light to shine brightly and illuminate the world. Ylette holds a heartfelt belief that when we do what sets our soul on fire & let that light sparkle, we inspire the entire world to glow in harmony.   Passionate about motherhood, Ylette is devoted to helping mothers become their best selves, fostering love and nurturing for their children who will become the shining legacy of the future. Through her Mystic Mama Collective membership, Ylette holds space for mothers and women committed to walking the path, emphasizing the importance of balancing our human and soul aspects. This balance, she believes, helps us find the magic in the mundane and better navigate the journey with purpose. Through her whimsical approach and profound wisdom, Ylette weaves a tapestry of light, love, and magic, touching the lives of women and children alike.   Social Media: Instagram: @ylette_   Check out Michelle’s latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Ylette   Ylette (00:02) Hi, hello, I am so excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me and having me on.   Michelle (00:07) Yes. So I have, we follow each other on Instagram. I watch your Instagram and I really love it. I loved your energy. And I was like, I really liked this girl. Like I got to have her come on. And you also, I knew that you were like working with spirit babies and I was like, my gosh, I really, really jive with her energy. So I'm so happy to have you on here. And I would love for you to introduce yourself and give us a little bit of a background and how you got inspired to do the work that you do.   Ylette (00:37) Hi, so my name is Ile   I got pregnant at 24 years old, had my daughter at 24, then turned 25. And I want to talk a little bit about that story because it is a big part of what shaped me into who I am today and connecting with spirit babies along the way. But I currently channel spirit babies. I am an intuitive. I study astrology, something that came very easy to me. I feel like when I went to school, I was that kid that barely retained anything. I mean, I could memorize something and throw it on a paper. So I always had good grades.   but I feel like none of it really made sense to me and I didn't retain much. I did get a master's in psychology. I am currently by day a school counselor. And then I say a school counselor by day, I read the stars and connect with the cosmic energies by night and juggling mom life. But it wasn't until I found astrology that I felt like, whoa, I am home because it came so easy to me. And it was so intuitive that the chart, I just opened it up and I feel like I was being led.   So I always say that I open someone's chart and the chart speaks to me. I don't do, your son is in this, your rising is in that. I'm like, we're gonna open up. We're gonna go wherever the chart leads me because I feel like astrology is so vast that if you start with just the surface level things, you can be there for hours. So I'm like, we're gonna go deep, Mercury and Scorpio, Scorpio, and we're gonna go deep right away. So that astrology really opens me up and strengthen my intuitive gifts.   Michelle (01:36) That's cool.   Mm -hmm.   Ylette (02:05) So that's what I'm doing now. I'm kind of like balancing both being a school and connecting with spirit babies and doing astrology readings on the side. But what started this whole journey is when I was 24   I got pregnant with my first daughter, Sophia, really young. I mean, I think young for me. And while I was pregnant with her, I had had before, because I did suffer when I was younger, some sexual trauma and abuse, and you know, the body holds on to all of that. And so I had, I remember I had gone in for a pap smear maybe like two years before I conceived my daughter, and I had some cancerous cells on my cervix.   Michelle (02:33) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Ylette (02:44) So I had the procedure to get a leap and do and have, you know, a piece of my cervix removed and all of that. And so when I told the doctor, when I had gotten pregnant with Sophia, that I had that procedure, they were like, now all of a sudden he was a new doctor. You're high risk. We have to do a bunch of ultrasounds just to make sure that your cervix is okay and it's not opening. And so I was having a lot of ultrasounds. And when I went in for my, I believe 16 week ultrasound, there was a tech that measured the cervix and I was having different techs measure it and   What I found out later is that when different techs measure the cervix, they can get different numbers, so it's not really super accurate. So the tech was like, your cervix is super sure, and the doctor came in and he's all concerned, he's like, we're gonna have to do a cerclodge. So I imagine I was 24 years old at the time, I was so nervous, I wasn't confident, not in my power, I'm like, okay, you're the doctor, you know best.   Michelle (03:33) So for people who aren't hearing this, when the cervix is really short, it could be considered like an which can cause miscarriage. And a cerclage is a way to keep it in place   Ylette (03:43) Yes.   Right. So the stitching. So I was like, okay, let's do this. And even my mom had freaked me out because she's like, that happened to your grandma in Cuba. She lost a bunch of pregnancies because her cervix would open and they had to end up sewing her up. And that's how she had me. And then, you know, my brother and I was like, okay, well, I guess this is it. And my partner at that time was like, are you sure you don't want to think about this? And I was like, no, the doctor knows best. So let's just go. So I went in for the procedure.   I had it done the minute that I got out of surgery. I felt they had given me Tylenol coating. Now I know that it makes me throw up. So I don't take that anymore. But they had given it to me and I threw up. And when I threw up, guess I from the epidural, I urinated on myself and they thought that my water broke. So they were like, I was 18 weeks and they're like, your water, your water broke. We're going to do the like I think it's called the Fern test. They do to check if there's amniotic fluid.   Michelle (04:41) Hmm?   Ylette (04:44) until they did the test and it came back positive and they're like, for sure your water broke. Later I found out those can get false positives. So they were like, your water broke, we're gonna have to take the baby out right now. And I was like, what? And they're like, yeah, I'm so sorry. Like they didn't even hold me, they didn't allow any space for me to grieve or have all of these feelings. And I'm 24 years old just sitting there in the recovery room. My mom is next to me.   Michelle (05:00) Wow, that's so crazy.   Ylette (05:10) We get the news we're both freaked out. My mom instantly pulls out her Bible. She starts the up praying and I'm freaking out, but I was like, well, I mean, I guess, I guess if you're telling me that this is what's going to happen, this is what's going to happen. So they take me upstairs. They start that same day. They removed the sirclage that they had just put in. So talk about trauma. It went back in there. I was raw and just, and they removed it. And then they started putting servadil.   Michelle (05:31) my God.   Ylette (05:39) to start trying to soften my cervix. like, well, you you have no water, you're gonna keep leaking. Baby can't grow without amniotic fluid. So we're just gonna have to remove the baby. And the whole time I was freaking out, they put the cerclage, nothing was working. I think they put it three, I mean the cervidil, they put three different rounds of cervidil. Nothing was working, my cervix was tight. And all the while I could feel my baby moving. It's like whenever a doctor would come in, my baby was like, boom, Sophia, like, mom, pay attention.   Michelle (06:02) my god.   wow.   Ylette (06:09) elbow me, she would move around and I would tell my mom, I'm like, mom, I feel her moving. I feel her kicking. It's almost like she's trying to tell me something. So this is where it gets really crazy. And I'm just like, wow, divine intervention. So we have a nurse come in and my daughter, my due date with my daughter Sophia was July 10th, 2010.   And the nurse comes in and I see that she's wearing, because I'm big into jewelry. I didn't mention I also have like a jewelry company named after my grandmother, which I do a lot of Zodiac jewelry. So the nurse comes in and the first thing that I notice, of course, is that she's wearing a necklace and she has a cancer Zodiac on it. And I go to her, my God, my daughter was supposed to be a cancer. She's supposed to be born July 10th. And the nurse was like, what? My birthday is July 10th.   Michelle (06:47) Hmm.   Wow.   Ylette (06:59) And I was like, my God, like what a coincidence her name was Gloria. And at the time I was going to name my daughter Sophia Bella. And I was like, wow. And the nurse, she did like the little doctor. She's like, listen, honey, I hear the baby moving around in there. There's water in there. You don't continue to leak. You need to get up out of this hospital and go because your baby is fine. And if you continue to stay here, they're going to end up doing something that is going to cause you to abort this child. And I feel like she's fine.   in came another nurse right after her name Sophia. And she was like, the same thing happened to me. I had a little tear in my sack and it kind of sealed over. I was on bed rest and my son is here, born healthy. And I was like, you know what? I talked to my mom, was like, we need to go. When the doctor found out that I needed, that I was going to get up and go and like sign myself out, they came in, a specialist came in and was like, your baby can be born with this and this and this and it's not going to develop.   Michelle (07:42) Yeah.   Ylette (07:54) all of these things to scare me. And in that moment, I just felt so confident and so secure after talking to Gloria and that, you know, her coming in, which I feel like she was my earth angel with the little cancer zodiac necklace. I was like, no, I'm going to get up and I'm going to go and my baby keeps kicking me. And I trust that this is the right decision. I ended up leaving, found another doctor. The doctor's like, your cervix is fine. There's no issue with your cervix.   Michelle (08:20) my God.   Ylette (08:22) You don't even have to be on bed rest. Like, get up, do whatever you need to do. And my daughter Sophia was born July 10th, 2010, and I named her Sophia Gloria after the nurse.   Michelle (08:32) my God, that is crazy. Yes, that is insane. just, my God, you have to listen to your intuition. think that that's like the, the of the story.   Ylette (08:34) Isn't that insane?   Yep. Yep. And it's so hard to do, with all of the fear and they just instill so much fear. And if you don't do this and if you don't do that, and it took so much within me to be like, you know what? I'm not, I'm going to go. And I remember my mom and I went to church every Sunday and we would pray and I was like, it makes sense that my daughter's name is Sophia. Sophia Christ consciousness, divine wisdom. And even in her astrology chart, she has so much   old soul energy. She's a cancer rising cancer son, almost a cancer moon in the 12 house in Gemini. And I was like, this is just you came in to really activate me and really put me in touch with my intuition. And ever since then, I completely changed. can ask anyone and they will tell you pre Sophia and post Sophia, you were a completely different person.   And I had a friend who, she actually went on a fertility journey and she was having a lot of miscarriages and she heard, I think she went to a fertility specialist and they gave her the book. What's that book called? The Spirit Baby book by Walter. Yeah. And.   Michelle (09:53) Spirit Baby? Yeah.   Ylette (09:58) She gave it to me and I was just so interested in it I started reading it and that book activated me. It was almost like a remembering. So when I started reading that book and I was like, wait a minute, it makes so much sense that we can connect to the souls of the babies that are going to come in because we are souls. And at 18 years old, I had read many lives, many masters. And when I learned about past lives, I was like, it was another like remembering. was like, I knew it. I know I've lived many lives. So when I read spirit babies, I'm like,   Michelle (10:18) Hmm?   Ylette (10:27) course, this makes so much sense. So I started connecting. I started doing the meditations in the book and I started connecting with my before I got pregnant, actually this happened. Now that I'm remembering reminding what, cause my husband and I wanted her and I was like, okay, if you're listening to me, if you're close, send me yellow butterflies. Every time that I would go out, three little yellow butterflies would flow around me.   Michelle (10:44) Mm -hmm.   wow.   Ylette (10:50) Even my husband would play golf and he'd send me a picture. said, look, a yellow butterfly would land on his golf ball. And I was like, this is so legit. I ended up getting pregnant and it was the most connected that I have felt to any   I would call in the guides. I would call in my ancestors. It was just such a spiritual experience.   So fast forward, I think a lot of us went through a lot in 2020 and it's almost like if our world got turned upside down. I know for us, even like with our business, we went through these highs, these lows and a lot of transformation. And so fast forward, we moved from Miami to Orlando. And so fast forward to this year in March,   I started seeing some yellow butterflies Like I was just seeing them randomly. was like, well, maybe, you know, I'm just seeing yellow butterflies because we live in a very lush neighborhood. We have a lot of trees. Okay. Yellow butterflies. The eclipse hits. Surprise. I ended up finding out that I'm pregnant. We weren't expecting it.   but I feel like this is the thing the one that kind of transformed me because Prior to that I had channeled. I think it was in 2021 a message about mothers needing to really Cleanse and clear any trauma that is held in the womb to be able to hold the vibration of the new children   So a lot of things that I've been channeling is that these new babies that are coming in, they're really high vibe. Like their vibration is different. Even the way that we are experiencing karma, their experiencing karma is going to be different because these new souls really come to anchor the light. These are awakened souls. These are, you know, children from the stars. And I started channeling that information, but I didn't fully understand it. And I kept channeling things about the mother wound and   Michelle (12:28) Okay.   Ylette (12:41) clearing the womb and how much trauma we may be holding in our womb. But again, I was like, I've kind of dealt with that. I I went through my trauma. had the whole thing with the sirclage, but I've dealt with that. But healing is very layered. And when we think that we've healed something, another thing kind of comes up for clearing and healing. Exactly. We're peeling back the onion. And so I thought, okay, well, you know, I've healed all of that. So   Michelle (12:54) Mm   Mm Yeah. It's like an onion.   Mm   Ylette (13:11) When I got pregnant this last time, it ended in a miscarriage. And I almost knew because I had been living so, you know, when you get into a stage where you just feel like numb and you're disconnected and I felt very disconnected from my creativity, very disconnected from my heart, just kind of going through the motions of, you know, work And I didn't feel like myself. I didn't have any passion.   And so when I went to the doctor, I remember I was like eight weeks pregnant and I went to the doctor and they couldn't find a heartbeat. It's almost like I knew I was like, I'm disconnected from my heart. And the most powerful, I will say now experience that I have had has been experiencing a miscarriage.   Michelle (13:49) Mm   Ylette (13:58) because I was able to hold the pain and the joy and almost like life inside me, but then a death as well. And when I passed the baby, I passed the baby And I woke up and I was in my kitchen.   And I felt this one big contraction and I thought, the baby's coming. And I passed the baby and when I look, it was like the full baby in the sack, in the water. Yeah, I even have, I mean, it's kind of intense graphic, but I do have a picture of it because I wanted to keep that. And it was, I remember just looking down and holding her because I think it was a girl. And in that moment,   Michelle (14:26) wow.   Ylette (14:44) I looked down and I was like, wow, this, this little tiny thing in the water, just perfect, this little embryo. And I cried. And I, at that moment, I held both joy and sadness. It was like they both coexisted at the same time for me. And it's almost like this peace, the sense of peace washed over me. And I felt like this   this clearing, this cleansing, almost as if this soul, this baby, this experience came to me to help me release all of that trauma that still lingered in my womb, anything that I still hadn't dealt with, anything that was still stored in there. And it was just so beautiful and so magical. I just, I took her and I buried her. have this huge grandmother oak tree in the front and I did a whole little ritual and I just felt   like this purity come over me, like this cleansing. And I finally understood what I had channeled in that message of cleansing and clearing the womb. And sometimes it's through our grief that we learn the biggest lessons and we can hold, like if we really surrender to it, because I remember coming back from the hospital and asking God, I was like, I'm not going to ask for a miracle. I'm not going to ask. I'm just going to ask that whatever needs to be done right now.   Michelle (15:59) Mm   Mm   Ylette (16:08) I give it to you, I can't hold this, I can't carry this, I trust in you and I trust that I'm gonna be led through this process for my highest and best good. And it was a level of surrender that I feel like I hadn't reached before. And when I finally let go and I let this process just crack me open, it was this unfolding that really my heart just blasted open in a different way. And...   Michelle (16:21) Mm   Mm   Ylette (16:34) even though it was painful, it was so magical. It was so magical. And I think that sometimes it's hard to really surrender and lean into that when we are going through something so difficult, right? Because it's hard, pain hurts. And when we long for something so much or when we want something so bad, it's so hard. Because everyone's like, surrender. trust. It's easy to say, but it's so hard to do.   Michelle (16:46) Mm   Yeah.   Yeah, it really is. But I think about it. I think about so many things. mean, I think about Eckhart Tolle's teachings. I've always been really into his teachings. And he told a story about Buddha and that he had, a disciple or one of his disciples after Buddha died. He cried and cried and cried and cried. I mean, I think it was like he cried all night long, just couldn't stop crying, just like allowed himself to feel the depth of the pain and woke up the next day enlightened.   Because he allowed himself to walk through that darkness, like fully unimpeded. And how often do we do that? We try to stop it. It's almost like we're going through it. We try to stop it. We're trying to protect ourselves. And what do we do? We actually hold it in our tissues. Yeah.   Ylette (17:31) The darkness.   We stuff it. I tell my students that actually, I'm like, gotta allow yourself to cry and let the emotions just move through you. Feel it, go there, be vulnerable. Even if you do it by yourself and just let it crack you open and cry and release. And we feel so much better usually after, but it was a huge lesson for me this year in that experience in surrender. it's like an initiation process.   Michelle (18:01) Yeah.   Ylette (18:13) Right? That you're going to...   Michelle (18:13) I get that. I get that. my father passed away. I watched him go through the motions and I literally saw it was so crazy. I've never had an experience like this before because I never had someone so close to me, like naturally die. So they have what's crazy to me that I never knew before, that there are signs almost like you see it with babies, but they have different levels of growth.   They start crawling, they start walking, start teething. The same thing happens when people die. They start to have, they call it the rattle. And it sounds horrible to talk about, but it's not. I think that that's our own human judgments on things. Yes, it's sacred. It's sacred. And so I was like, okay, look, this is crazy because I was at the hospice and...   Ylette (18:46) Mm   Because there's beauty in that process too. That's what I've learned. Yeah, that's what is so sacred.   Michelle (19:06) you read these books and they tell you there are signs to death. Like you can certain behaviors, certain expressions, certain things, And I saw my dad looking up at one point and he was looking at something and I'm like that to me reminds me of either a newborn or a cat that zones out into seeing something that I don't see. And I'm like, this is crazy.   Ylette (19:11) Yes.   Michelle (19:29) It was almost sacred and sad all at the same time. I remember thinking like, if you just allow yourself, we like to judge and we like to label, just as it's the human condition, if you just allow yourself to move out of that for a second, just for a split second, move out of the judgment of the meaning that you're placing on this moment and what it is and the label of it.   Ylette (19:32) Yeah.   Michelle (19:54) If for one second you move out of that and you really open up to whatever that experience is, it's insane, but you can find a gift in that.   Ylette (20:03) Yes, a thousand percent. I think that, because I went through the hospice experience too with my grandfather and my grandmother, and it almost felt like it's that feeling of when you're just dancing between worlds. It's almost like being in a hospital waiting for someone to give birth and then for someone to just cross over. It's that liminal space where it's sacred and you get to hold it. And I feel like it is true what you're saying that   Michelle (20:24) Mm   Ylette (20:31) know, birth, we're always celebrating it, but death is sad and scary, but it's also very sacred. And I think it's important to also hold space for that and to honor how magical that transition can also be when we've, you know, completed this cycle and we're ready to go. And they are in tune with that space that is magical. Cause I remember my grandfather would say that he was seeing his mom and he was seeing friends of his that crossed over.   Michelle (20:37) you   Yeah, they do. They see.   Ylette (20:57) And in that moment when I was talking to him, even though I know that he was going and it was very sad, was also, wow, you're so, you're dancing with the magic, with the divine, with those moments. Yes.   Michelle (21:10) It's that connection, the portal opens. And so what I found actually, had a patient, she was trying to conceive for years and her grandfather had just passed away and she felt was just in her bones. Like she just knew that he was gonna open a portal for her and shortly after she conceived. And then she was even like after her first baby, she was on the birth control pills and regardless.   she got pregnant, which is really, I don't even know how that happened. But it was just like that. It was like something opened up and it was just like, boom, it was this connection of like death and birth and that cycle and that opening. It was really crazy.   Ylette (21:43) opened up.   Yes. Yes, that's exactly what I, yes, I I love it. And think that's exactly what I went through with this but wow, how sacred is this moment as well of loss and death and returning to the earth. And it's like, we come in, we go out and, but our souls are.   immortal, they're eternal. And I think that there is much work to be done for us to be able to hold space and really honor how sacred something like that can also be. And I think as women too, it's so important to hold space for it all. I even think that, you know, that something that has come up for me a lot now too, with this fear of like, you know, announcing like, I'm pregnant now is just what if I use it? What if   and not wanting to say anything, but I'm like, it's so important too to have community and have a community of women that know that you are pregnant and that you can share if something does go wrong with so that you don't have to go through it alone so that they can hold space for you so that whatever it is that you're going through, you have that community of friends and people that are like, my experience may be different from your experience, but I feel you, I got you, I'm holding space for you. I think as women, that is so important for us to have.   Michelle (22:56) Yeah.   Yeah.   Ylette (23:02) because the journey is personal, but it's also collective. And I have a lot of friends who are currently struggling to conceive. And I have one, you know, she's a little bit older and she's struggling to conceive. And I gave her this book. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's called, what is it called? Something Choice. I'll have to get you the name. Mary, is it Mary's, Rosa's Choice?   But the minute that I started reading it, it talks a lot about the mother wounds and things that we haven't explored. And I'm like, wow, there's so many things that when we're on the trying to conceive journey come up for us or when we're pregnant come up for us. it's an initiation within itself, that journey of trying and struggling and learning to surrender and learning about your power and learning how to hold your grief, letting others support you.   Michelle (23:57) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Ylette (23:57) really having that community and trusting in a bigger plan, even though it's so hard. It's so hard when you're in the moment, because we want what we want.   Michelle (24:06) It could feel, you know, for some people they've expressed, You're like stuck in this place and you just want to move on. You want to start your family and you're like, when is this ever going to happen? And then you can kind of get into this whole mindset there where you're like, what's happening, the doubt and the fear. And it could be really tough.   Ylette (24:10) Yes.   It's, yeah, I had a friend who, and you know what's been something that I've noticed and obviously everyone's story is different, but, and the friends that I have had is when they have reached that point of surrender, where I had a friend who was, think she was trying for almost two years and she was like, you know what, like I'm okay with whether it doesn't happen or not. I've come to a point where, you know, I'm happy, my husband and I, and I have my nieces and nephews and I'm okay and I'm good.   She ended up getting pregnant the month after. She's like, I feel like when I turned it over and I was just like, like, you know what, God, like I'm okay. If it doesn't happen, she ended up getting pregnant. I've heard a lot of stories where women, they make a decision where it's, know, we'll adopt or we're, and then something shifts and something happens. And again, everybody's story is so different because we don't know what one.   woman is going through versus another, whether baby is thinking, Hey mom, I really need you to, you know, move to this new house when this happens, then I'll come through. Cause babies remember spirit babies, they know and they see what we don't. So what we're trying to force something or push something or think we want it now, sometimes babies are wait, wait.   Michelle (25:33) Mm   Ylette (25:39) Hold on, I'm coming, but wait, because there's little pieces that need to be moved. Maybe there's something like, want you and daddy to get closer. There's something in the relationship where I want to bring you guys closer. it's hard for us to let go because we don't see the big picture. But in working with the spirit babies, something that I have found is that they see big picture. And when we work with them and something as simple as,   Michelle (26:00) Mm   Ylette (26:04) It doesn't have to be complicated, just journaling to them, pretend that you're, you know, write them a letter, connect to them. Hey baby, this is my lie. If I am your mom, tell them about you. Start a specific journal where you go just to talk to them and ask for signs. I'm like, usually the first thing that comes to your mind is a sign. You start creating that connection where even if you're struggling to conceive, I feel like just knowing that   you have this bond and you have this connection is so healing and so comforting because even if it takes longer, even if baby isn't meant to incarnate in this lifetime, if you're, I am a big believer, if you have that desire in your heart to have a child, you feel connected to a child, your child is there. Sometimes they're not always meant to incarnate.   Michelle (26:53) I say the same thing all the time. It's so funny. A lot of what you're saying are things that I feel deeply. Yeah.   Ylette (26:59) Yeah, because it's sometimes they're not meant to incarnate, but they're meant to serve as our guide. They're meant to work with us. So I always say if you feel that desire, if you're trying to get your baby is there and you can connect with them, whether it's through journaling, through meditation, through asking for signs and then surrendering and allowing yourself to receive synchronicities, numbers. And you start building that connection, which a lot of babies, they   Often I've heard from other women that I've talked to too is like the baby wants that. They want to start building that connection before and then they'll end up getting pregnant or it'll be a little bit easier for them to get pregnant. But babies are like, no, I want to connect with you now. I want you to get to know me now. I want to guide you. Because even working with them, they can help guide us to, if I'm waiting for my mom to get a better job, mom, hey, I'm over here. Connect with me, work with me. And then once you start   Michelle (27:40) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Mm   Ylette (27:52) Surrendering to that opening up to that you see how little things start shifting and things start moving But if you have a desire Let go of the how you got to let go of the how and just allow You know God spirit to deliver because it can look so different from the way that you thought it was gonna look like if you have something in your mind where you're like I'm gonna get pregnant by this agent. This is gonna happen by this agent. This is what and it's like no, no Let's surrender to that connect with your baby and be like, know what baby   I surrender to you. I surrender to how you want to be conceived, how you want to be born, how it's going to look. Like maybe it can even be through adoption or we just don't really know. But I do believe that if you have the desire, baby's there.   Michelle (28:35) Well, there has always been that saying, If there's a desire within you, there's also possibility in the, ethers. And that's why, that's where the desire is born, actually. It's like from that possibility, it's like landed as a seed. And so that is something that I definitely don't think we should ignore. And we should also give it the merit that it deserves. And I have...   Ylette (28:42) Yes.   Michelle (28:59) one of my patients just recently, she was starting to ask for signs. We talked about that. And she's like starting to ask for signs. And then she started asking for specific signs and the signs that she got were insane. Because she would even say a name that she always wanted for her daughter. So she knew it was going to be a daughter and she described exactly what it was and all this stuff. Like she was struggling to conceive for about a year and half before she came to me. She saw me for a whole year. So I'm giving you kind of this background so you can see that she really struggled.   Ylette (29:04) Mm   Yeah.   Michelle (29:29) but the signs were so insanely accurate. Like she would see this name on a wine bottle that she received. She would see this when she would go on a treadmill. It was like the last person's like name that they input there. It was crazy. and it wasn't like a common name. So it was really, really crazy.   Ylette (29:42) What?   Michelle (29:52) that and then other signs she said, okay, let me give you a specific sign that's different. And she would start seeing that. I mean, so she would come and tell me the stories. I'd get chills every time. And I was like, my God, this is crazy. So then finally she gave herself like a certain timeline. She said, if I'm not pregnant by this time, I'm going to go to do IVF. She went and did IVF and she was all excited. She like just felt like she really knew. She knew, she knew she did IVF. Unfortunately, completely couldn't even get an embryo.   So it was really, really sad. was devastating to watch. I felt like I was already failing her because she's been coming to me for a year and I'm like, my God, I really, I really want to see this for her. Like it was just, I can see the tears and, then she said, okay, let me just do this other one. She got a loan and everything. Let me try this other retrieval. Again, a second time, she just out of nowhere gets pregnant naturally. It just comes out of nowhere. And I was like, it was like that. And she's like, I know it's going to be a girl.   Ylette (30:42) you   Michelle (30:48) We don't know yet. I mean, she's still in her first trimester. We're going to find out soon. But she's like, I know it's a girl. Yeah. And it was just crazy. the signs, 100%. I always tell people, ask for those signs. They will come to you. I mean, the stories I heard, I can write a book just on the signs, just on the signs themselves.   Ylette (30:49) huh.   Yeah.   How exciting, you know?   Yes.   And I think that it's also important to share those stories and to listen to those stories because it also gives you hope when you're on that trying to conceive journey. And I am big on listening to other stories and I love stories of hope and everything is so different for everyone. And some babies do prefer like, okay, I want to be born through IVF. That could just be part of your journey because there's something there for you. Right. Yes.   Michelle (31:35) or a surrogate or even an egg donor. I've had one where I had a guest, she's a fertility coach. She had two embryo donors, like complete embryo adoptions. And she knew that she wanted to do it and she felt connected. It was just crazy. mean, she had a crazy story herself, but very, very interesting how that happened.   Ylette (31:49) Well.   that you feel the call and that's where that surrender piece comes in where it's like, just let go of the how. Forget of how you imagined you want it to look. Just focus on what is it that you want. You want to bring in a baby closer, start connecting to the baby and let go of the how and then just allow it to be delivered to you. Whether it's surrogate, IVF, adoption, just let go.   Michelle (32:03) Yeah.   Yes, 100%. Yeah.   Right, the how, because it's a conversation, it's a dance. And if we're just talking, it's not a conversation. If we're just telling it how to be, it's not a conversation. We have to, yes, we could talk, but also receive and kind of go back and forth and allow that.   Ylette (32:22) Mm   Exactly.   And that's that feminine, right? Because that's the most feminine thing that we can do is just being in that surrender, in that flow state. you have to be so vulnerable, which I think is why it's so hard for so many of us to really just be open and just be fully surrendered and open because we have to feel safe in order to be able to.   Michelle (32:54) It's scary. That's scary. Like it's a scary thing. I always kind of like look at even the chakras and I learned that when I was studying Ayurveda, mean, the chakras are literally vortexes in our bodies. And what's interesting is cause when I studied acupuncture, I started seeing that there are points that correlate and correspond and even have the same indication for that specific chakra location. So that to me is almost like confirmation cause it's two different sciences, but then.   What's interesting to me is that you have the root chakra, that's the first one, and that pretty much holds up everything else. It begins there, it begins with feeling safe. Once you have that rooted establishment, that's established and you feel safe and you're grounded, then you can create. That's a second chakra. You cannot create without a feeling of safety. And so it's all about feeling safe. And then,   Ylette (33:30) Thank   Yes.   Michelle (33:52) The nervous system we know, it plays a huge role on your body and also your reproductive health. And right now, the way we're living, and I'm talking about the collective, it is such an assault to our nervous system. I can't even tell you, like in so many ways. So it's important to kind of get ahead of that, not to side direct the conversation, but it's just so important.   Ylette (34:04) Yeah.   Yes.   Yeah. Yeah. And I think you're doing wonderful work in the world, which is so, so important and being able to, it makes sense why you feel that strong Kwan Yin energy, being able to hold space because you're holding space in order for women to feel safe and feel surrendered. Right? So they come to you and they're   playing in that feminine energy where it's like, this is me, I'm vulnerable. You're meeting people at their most raw, their most vulnerable moments, you know, even from a point of desperation and to feel safe with you. I'm sure like it's so important because then they can fully surrender into the process and go through it with someone that they feel safe with. Because at the end of the day, it all goes back to that, that safety and intimate relationships. see it too. When I, even when I do counseling sessions, it's like if   the person doesn't feel safe, they're not gonna open up and they're not gonna be able to receive anything. So the growth comes from first the safety, the surrender, the vulnerability and then allowing yourself to be able to receive. But that's, it's so feminine, right? Cause even when we're having sex, it's like you have to feel safe to open, to surrender and then to be, to be penetrated, to receive. And it's, it's, it's hard. It's hard.   Michelle (35:06) Yeah.   Mm   Mm   Yes, it could be very hard for sure. so for people like, cause I think that a lot of people will ask like, what's the difference between my thoughts and my intuition? what, like if the spirit baby is speaking to me, how do I know that it's the spirit baby? How do I know that it's not just me thinking or making it like a thing? So what would you say to that? Cause I think that that's a very big question for people who want to get into the intuition, want to connect.   directly with your spirit baby.   Ylette (36:02) I think that when it comes to, like everyone receives intuitive hits differently. But for me, it's always that knowing, that inner knowing, that feeling. I think that you'll just know and it'll be specific to you. And you have to trust that, I call it the little heart string, like when your heart goes, and you kind of just know, you need to trust that feeling because thoughts are more fearful and they're gonna be, no, that's not real, that's not.   Michelle (36:06) Mm   Ylette (36:30) But when you get an intuitive hit and you see something and it takes you back, like you have to trust like that wow factor, like that feeling of where we can be walking down the street, right? And I'm trying to conceive, I'm trying to get pregnant and I know that my sign is a yellow butterfly and I see the yellow butterfly and it's gonna hit me, it's gonna stop me, it's gonna go, Whereas my friend would be like, cool, a yellow butterfly. So you have to trust that feeling that you get, that gut feeling and that feeling in your heart where you're   just going to know. And your thoughts are anxiety versus intuition is it's going to sound fearful. that doesn't exist. That's scary. But you have to kind of drown it out because it's really hard to silence the mind. And the logical mind always gets in the way. But intuition isn't logical. And the more we allow ourselves to really play in that realm of imagination. And I say be a little delulu because you got to be a little delulu in order to really start testing that intuition.   Michelle (37:13) Mm   I like that.   Ylette (37:30) Is when things are going to open up and it you don't need anyone else to validate it for you There's no convincing because you're just gonna know and I always tell people that I love pointing people back to themselves because a lot of Women because I have this membership circle that I actually just reopened It's called the mystic mama collective And what I love to do is I love to point women back to themselves because I don't want you to come to me for validation I need you to trust what you are getting   and know that it is for you. Because like I said, the yellow butterfly may be mine, but yours is gonna be something different and it's gonna make sense to you. And you're just gonna know it in your heart. And the more that you start to trust that and put aside the logical mind that tells you, that's not real. Because society tells us that so many things aren't real, right? And it's this conditioning and you have to kind of just silence that and trust, continue to trust. And the more that you trust...   Michelle (38:22) Mm   Ylette (38:24) the louder that it gets and the easier that it gets to start following that intuition. Because if you're, let's say you and I are both walking down the road and I'm meant to go right and you're meant to go left, you're gonna be like, I think left. And I'm like, no, I think right. But if you start convincing me to go left and I'm like, I'm really feeling like I gotta go right, but you said I should go left. Maybe I should go left. That's when we start getting into trouble. So sometimes we have to realize that what may be true for you is great, but it's not true for me. And I gotta,   Michelle (38:44) Yeah.   Yes.   Ylette (38:54) start learning to really trust myself. The more that we do that, the louder and clearer it's gonna be and the easier it's gonna get to start following our intuition. Because we know even like we know as women like you know when it's time to end the relationship, you know when it's time to leave that job, you know when things are no longer in alignment but what keeps us there longer than we need to be?   Michelle (39:09) Mm -hmm. Yep.   Yeah, right. We'll convince ourselves out of it. You know, everything that you're saying could be applied to creativity. And that's why I think that like the single most greatest thing you can do actually to impact fertility is become creative. Start to do creative things. Even if you're not considering yourself as a creative person, you are creative. We're born creative. Our decisions of how we're going to drive somewhere is using your creativity. You're always using your creativity. It may not be an art per se.   Ylette (39:30) Yes.   Michelle (39:45) But you're always creating anyway, because you have to, because that's how we think. That's how we pivot.   Ylette (39:47) You're something.   And another thing too that I was told to is find something, like, fair babies, let me know, find something that you can nurture, whether it's a garden, a pet, a plant, a project, get into that energy of nurturing something. Just practice nurturing. It puts you in that feminine energy of taking care of something, nurturing yourself, which is a huge one. A lot of times it's like, what are you doing for yourself?   Michelle (40:03) I love that.   Yeah.   Ylette (40:21) in order to create this space. Because if you're constantly go, go, go, go, go, well, then how are you going to then bring in a child who's going to need so much attention and space and nurturing? So practicing nurturing yourself to taking a bubble bath, getting your nails done, getting your hair done, even, you know, putting on some jewelry, putting on some makeup. It's a way of you honoring that divine feminine and being able to nurture yourself. Everything is connected, even though it seems like, what does this have to do with that? It's all connected.   Michelle (40:45) Yes. 100%. Yes. It's the big picture. It's the big picture perspective. my God, I love this. I could talk to you for hours, by the way. So for people who want to reach out for you, you do readings. Do you astrological readings? And could you like, yeah.   Ylette (40:51) Yes.   I know!   Yeah, so right now I'm about to open my books again. I would do like spirit baby readings, card readings. I have I do astrology readings as well and I have my membership circle. So right now I have the free community space which women can just join and we do updates in there. I am going to open up the paid membership now which we're going to be doing like moon circles and just a space to go deeper for those who really want to do the work to get in tune with their intuition and learn.   And I'm also working on a spirit baby course on how to communicate with your spirit babies. So that is coming with meditations. We're also going to look into some of the things that may be blocking like mother wounds and things like that, because that's what has really been coming up for a lot of women that I talk to is a lot of mother wounds and fear around mothering, mothering themselves, mothering others, issues with their own mothers or how they were mothered, because we don't even realize, but   Michelle (41:35) I love that.   Ylette (42:01) all of that programming or the experiences that we went through.   Yep, it's in there and that fear that we carry of, am I gonna be a good mother? That's a huge one. Am I gonna fail at this? Am I gonna? So I think the work is just bringing women back to themselves and having them just trust themselves. I'm really big on trust yourself. Don't come to me for validation. I can hold space for you, but you have the power. It's all within you. You gotta trust yourself.   Michelle (42:29) Love that. That's awesome. So how can people find you?   Ylette (42:34) So you can find me on my Instagram it's at let's while eat TTE underscore and then I have links and bio there to everything I've kind of been a little MIA from that because I've been feeling so sick Honestly, this is the first Pregnancy that I was feeling so sick and I think I kind of manifested that too because of the fear of the miscarriage from the other one So it was kind of like that   Michelle (42:46) Mm   Ylette (42:59) little thing where it's like, cause you know how everyone tells you, if you're nauseous, then it's a good sign. If you're nauseous, means things are going well. And I think I've manifested that, I swear to kind of keep me like, yeah, like, no, no, it's okay. It's okay. Cause I'm gonna get something wrong. this, you know, cause when you go through something like it is traumatic, you go through an experience like that and, it's hard to kind of lean into that joy. Cause you're just holding your breath. It's almost like,   Michelle (43:04) Mm   Yeah.   In check like to calm you down.   Yeah.   Yes.   Ylette (43:27) I just feel like I've been holding my breath, of like, you know, even talking about it now.   Michelle (43:31) I see this all the time. It happens with like almost all my patients. mean, I would say all of them. Yeah.   Ylette (43:38) Yeah, it's hard. hard to feel that joy, which is kind of sad because then you look back and like, I wish I would have been more. But it's just telling yourself if something is meant to happen, it's going to happen. Kind of let it go. But I still dance with the... It's a dance, right? No one's perfect. I dance with the fear and the surrender and the joy.   Michelle (43:50) Yeah.   Absolutely. Yes. a good thing for people to hear because like, even though you and I, teach a lot, we talk a lot, you know, we go, we're human too. Like we still, even though I'll teach something, I still sometimes have my own struggles walking the talk and you are experiencing that too. And that's kind of like that human aspect of it that we are all practicing and going through it.   Ylette (44:06) Mm -hmm.   Michelle (44:22) even though we know, we know it, we never get to this kind of like this place of perfection, everything working out like all the time exactly how we teach it, you know? Yeah.   Ylette (44:31) Exactly. That's the thing too is, and I think that it's important too, and it's powerful for us to as teachers also be walking the walk and going through our own experiences because it does show those that we work with. Like I'm here with you. I'm human too. I don't really like like people. I'm like, don't place me above. I bleed. You you cut me. I bleed. I'm human. have anxiety, so much anxiety. The difference is that I do the work because I say that the work that we do   Michelle (44:46) Yeah, totally.   Yes.   Yeah.   Ylette (44:59) helps us get through these moments, but it doesn't mean we're exempt from them. We're gonna go through them.   Michelle (45:03) No, no, no, no. Yeah. We're not exempt. As long as we're humans, we're not exempt. no doubt. Wow. So, Ylette this is a great conversation. you so much for coming on today.   Ylette (45:09) not exam but the work just kind of helps out it kind of helps out but yeah.   Thank you for inviting me, I feel so honored.  

In today’s episode, I interview Josh Dech. In our conversation, Josh discusses the critical role of gut health in overall well-being, emphasizing that gut health impacts not just digestion but various aspects of health, including fertility. He shares his journey from being a paramedic to a holistic health practitioner, highlighting the importance of understanding inflammation, dysbiosis, and the gut microbiome.    Josh challenges conventional medical perspectives on chronic diseases and discusses the significance of dietary choices, the role of probiotics, and the hidden threats posed by parasites. He advocates for a comprehensive approach to gut health, including the five Rs of gut health, and stresses the importance of working with health professionals for optimal results. Be sure to tune in!   Takeaways   Gut health impacts everything, not just digestion. Inflammation is a sign of the body wanting to heal. Dysbiosis is an imbalance in gut bacteria. Symptoms can indicate underlying issues. Diet plays a crucial role in gut health. Conventional medicine often overlooks root causes. All diseases have a root cause. Probiotics can be beneficial but vary in effectiveness. Parasites can significantly affect gut health. Working with a professional is essential for healing.   Guest Bio:   Josh is a Holistic Nutritionist specializing in Crohn’s and Colitis, and other related gut issues. After reversing over 250 cases of bowel disease, previously thought to be impossible to fix, he’s been connected to some of the world’s most renowned doctors.   He’s since been recruited to the Priority Health Academy as a medical lecturer, helping educate doctors on the holistic approach to gut health, and inflammatory bowel disease; and has launched a top 2.5% globally ranked podcast.   https://gutsolution.ca   https://www.instagram.com/joshdech.health/       For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Click here to get free access to the first chapter in The Way of Fertility Book! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/           Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Josh.   Josh Dech - CHN (00:02) A pleasure to be here, Michelle. Thanks for having me on board.   Michelle (00:05) Yeah, I'm very excited to pick your brain. We just had a little pre -talk. I'm excited to really get into all the details of the gut nowadays we're starting to see just how impactful it is, but not just for digestion, which is like most of the time when you hear about gut, you think, okay, how's my digestion?   It's about everything. It's kind of like the center of everything. It impacts fertility.   But before we get into that, I'd love for you to share how you got into this work.   Josh Dech - CHN (00:36) I'd love to. Sure. You know, I think my entire career, I often like to describe it as a series of accidents just pushing me into one direction or another. And I used to be a paramedic and I loved it. You know, I love being in healthcare, but it wasn't very long until I realized it was actually sick care. It wasn't what I wanted to actually be doing. You know, I picked the same people up for the same things. Maybe 20 % of your calls were actually trauma, like car accidents and stuff like that. The other 80 plus percent was medical.   So we're talking people coming in for the same issues, heart issues, diabetic issues, strokes, very preventable things. Almost 99 % of them would be preventable through just simple lifestyle, nutrition and basic changes. And, you know, I ended up leaving that career after a short little stint and got into personal training in my early twenties. And that was more what I wanted to do. And I was a woman who came to see me at age 57, right at the beginning. And this is, this story is just, it'll knock your socks off because it really shows you what's possible.   So she's 57 years old. She came to see me. She was on 17 pills and a shot of insulin for breakfast. She had nine more pills and insulin for bedtime. So we're talking 26 pills a day, two shots of insulin. She had CPAP machine to sleep. She had high blood pressure. She was on disability at work as well on the list. So 27 floors up, but there was a fire. She had to stand there and wait for someone to come get her because she couldn't physically take the stairs. And that was the state of her health at 57. And so here we are two years later, she's 59 years old now.   Michelle (01:54) my God, wow.   Josh Dech - CHN (02:02) She's off all but two medications, no longer needs CPAP. She's no longer on disability, high blood pressure gone, it's totally normalized. Even her eyesight improved. She got her glasses prescription downgraded. And now he or she is 59 years old, Michelle, it gets even better. I told you, knock your socks off. We entered into her first weightlifting competition and she broke a world record in the raw power lifting federation in Canada at 59 from previously being on disability. And this is the power.   Michelle (02:14) Wow.   Yeah   Josh Dech - CHN (02:30) really truly the human body to go from 26 pills and insulin and disability to breaking world records right till she was in her mid 60s 62 63 when she retired from weightlifting but that's what the body can do it's consistently all the time it is working to heal you to improve you to rebuild you to build you stronger yet somehow we find ourselves continually going back the other way i'm getting it must be because i'm older it must be because you know i'm just getting sick it must be just genetic it must be this must be that   She was told all of her shit was genetic. None of it was. Her body was trying to heal her but it wasn't given the tools conditions and circumstances to do so until it was and then it did. And this is the power of we'll say holistic health is a super broad overarching spectrum but dealing with basics of nutrition and gut health and wellness at its root we can see that the body is so capable of healing itself and it's the most important thing you could ever do is give your body what it needs.   Michelle (03:01) Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (03:29) That's sort of how we got here.   Michelle (03:29) That is so powerful. Yeah, I that's so powerful because I, well, I think that the big thing that really gets in the way is kind of how we view our bodies or how we're taught to view our bodies. I want to say that we're conditioned to view our bodies because I think on an innate level, we do know that we can heal ourselves.   There's definitely like an innate knowing that you have and intelligence that you connect with with your body. But most people do not know based on how we're educated that their body can heal itself and that there is a choice outside of the 26 pills.   Josh Dech - CHN (04:02) Yes.   Yeah, right now you've been told there's nothing you can do right now you've been told your issues are genetic right now you've been told your only hope is medications to manage the symptoms there's nothing that can be done. But we need to understand as I learned throughout my career going back to school now specializing in gut diseases. Our guts really are at the epicenter of most of these things. And once you understand how it works, how it's connected, and how it's responsible for every aspect of your well being.   I argue sometimes that it well may be more important than our DNA. And once we can understand this concept, then we can start to look outside of what we think we already know, what we've been told. It unlocks a whole new, a whole new world for you. I'm singing a lot of it in my head now, a whole new world, but it opens all this stuff up for you. And then everything is possible. Everything you've been told becomes something of the past. Your whole paradigm begins to shift. And finally, you can look at yourself and go, wait a minute.   Michelle (04:37) You   Josh Dech - CHN (05:03) wait a minute, there, I don't have to be on these medications. I don't have to just deal with this. I don't have to just live with this because my body is trying to heal me. What is it trying to heal me from? And then you start unraveling. That's the thread that pulls apart the whole sweater.   Michelle (05:17) Yeah. And also inflammation is kind of at the heart of this because I know that it can impact so many things. know for fertility, it can impact your uterine lining. It can impact egg quality. it's very much linked with things like endometriosis. I mean, there's so many things and it just goes on and on and on. So let's talk about inflammation because that's really at the heart of all of this. Like when you address the gut health,   actually addressing inflammation. So talk about that. Talk about the Western approach to that and how you see inflammation occurring in the body.   Josh Dech - CHN (05:55) Yeah. Inflammation is always a reaction. Your body is healing you from something. And in the Westernized world, here's what I'll say. Imagine you're out going for a walk and you step on a nail and the nail goes right through your foot and you go into your doctor. The doctor looks at that nail and goes, wow, it is really swollen, really inflamed, but it's kind of just part of your body. Now there's nothing we can do about it. So what we're going to do is give you numbing cream for the pain. And if it gets infected, we can manage that as things get worse.   In worst case scenario, we'll just cut your foot off. That's absurd. may, you'd lose it. You slap the doctor, but here we are, we're going in and you got say a gut disease where I specialize like Crohn's, colitis and other gut disease. You go into your doctor, they go, wow, that inflammation is really bad. It's just genetic. It's part of your body. There's nothing we can do. We're going to manage it with quote numbing cream. So medication, anti -inflammatories. And when you get infected, we'll treat it as it comes up. And if worst case scenario, we'll just cut the organ out.   You should be slapping your doctor just like you would if it were your foot because it makes no sense. Inflammation, the very fundamentals of it is your body healing you from something. So let's apply this to Crohn's and colitis, right? Where I specialize is Crohn's, colitis and severe IBS. People are told it's genetic, it's autoimmune, there's nothing you can do. It is what it is. well, it will manage it or hopefully not cut out your bowels. Looking at this, it's not just genetic. It's not just autoimmune. It's not just unknown.   And I can break those down in about two minutes there, Michelle, really for you to basically, those are the three legs that Western medicine stands on to say you have to medicate it. I can break those with their own data and say it doesn't make any sense. But the idea being these inflammatory conditions we're told we're stuck with, yet we can reverse them 99 % of the time to full healing. Inflammation is your body healing you. We have to ask what is it healing you from?   So in the case of your intestines, they will, it's autoimmune and genetic, it's attacking your own body. Well, what if, what if your body is attacking something like your microbiome and your own tissues are caught in the crossfire, right? You get a nail in your foot, your body's not attacking your foot. That's not why you're inflamed. It's creating white blood cells or immune activity in response to attack the nail that's in your foot.   Michelle (07:50) Mm   Mmm.   Josh Dech - CHN (08:13) We don't question that. go, obviously it's infected. There's something that's wrong. When we get a condition like Crohn's or colitis or some other inflammatory condition, we go, it's attacking me. That doesn't make any sense at all.   Michelle (08:13) Mm   That's so interesting. So how do you see that specifically Crohn's is it the gut microbiome imbalance that's causing all of this? I think it's fascinating that you're saying this because I always talk about like symptoms being your friend. And it's actually just one of the intelligent aspects of your body to give you the alarm, to give you a heads up. Hey, pay attention.   Josh Dech - CHN (08:36) Yeah.   Mm   Michelle (08:52) So it is really fascinating to look at it that way rather than a nuisance.   Josh Dech - CHN (08:52) Yeah.   Yeah, I see it cascading down as a few different things. So number one, we all have dysbiosis now. Dysbiosis just means an imbalance in bacteria. But we know through the work of someone like Justin Sonnenberg that we can see what's called inherited dysbiosis. Our microbiomes are passed down from our mothers and her grandmother and her great, great grandmother before that. We get these dysbiotic states handed down and the more toxic our world gets them, the the dysbiosis becomes.   Michelle (09:06) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (09:26) So think of it this way, Michelle, great, great grandmother, we'll just round number just to visualize easier. Say they have a thousand microbes. Great grandmother gives birth to your great grandmother, who's given 800, who gives birth to your grandmother, who gets six, to your mother, who gets 400, to you, who gets 200 microbes. You now have inherited dysbiosis. Of course your gut's getting worse, which explains the rise of gut disease we've seen over the last...   50 to 75 years, we've seen these numbers compounding gut disease getting worse in the 1950s, Crohn's and colitis. There was about, I think it was maybe five or 10 in 100 ,000 people had this disease. To the 1970s, you're now 25 to 40 in 100 ,000 who have the disease. 1990s, you're about 150. And now today, it's 456. Almost 5 % of people now have bowel disease in North America.   And so what we're seeing now is this continual growth from like whatever it was, 0 .0005 % to 5 % growth in bowel disease is because great great grandmother had a thousand, now you've got 200. This is inherited dysbiosis. And there's a direct correlation to the amount of pesticides we use, to the chemicals we put on our food, to everything. And now what happens, this dysbiosis, this is the moat around the castle. This keeps the bad guys out.   Michelle (10:39) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (10:49) This is your defense mechanism. 90 % of your immune system is made there, or 70 to 90%, I should say, up to 90 % of your neurotransmitters, what your brain needs, all these leaks that happen in the gut when we're inflamed, it opens up the door for toxins to travel anywhere in the body through your lymphatic system or your bloodstream. And so we have our defenses lowered from 1 ,000 to 200, say. We don't have the same robustness to our body.   Michelle (10:54) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (11:16) which means other invaders, mode is empty, invaders can enter the castle. So now we've got three big issues that really are the roots of bowel disease. Number one is going to be microbial imbalances. So this is that dysbiosis we inherited, which lets in overgrowth of fungus, which should be in our gut, but in smaller levels it overgrows. We see overgrowth of E. coli, a big one I see. Michelle has parasites. I'm talking three, four foot worms coming out of people, which yeah, which.   Michelle (11:20) Hmm.   Mm God.   Josh Dech - CHN (11:45) has never been detected and will never be seen on your blood work from your doctor. So we see microbial imbalances. We also see toxins which contribute to this number of 200. So pesticides in 1990, right, we had let's go back to the 50s. We talked about say five or 10 in 100 ,000 to 1990 where it was about 150 to today where it's almost 456 per hundred thousand people with bowel disease. In the 1950s there was a handful of pesticides for use.   1990s it was 700 to 900, today it's 18 to 20 ,000 different pesticides approved for use in North America. And so this is a direct correlation, also looking at processed foods and packaged foods and seed oil consumption, the decrease in natural foods like eggs and animal fats, the increase in these artificial foods that we're now taking in. I'm not even arguing are animal fats good or bad for your heart, what I'm saying is we've eaten less of them than ever before and have more diseases than ever before.   Michelle (12:39) Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (12:41) And so we have to look at these correlations and go, wait a minute, something is up. Now I'm a big fan of red meat and fatty tissues. I eat a lot of fat and a lot of meat and my body's amazing, my blood is great, right? But this is what we see, microbial imbalances, toxicity from foods, from the environment, from other places. And then we have again, a dietary nutrient deficiency. So diets, 60 to 80 % of the standard American diet is processed, refined. comes from a bag, a freezer, a box or a drive -through.   We have nutrients in our soil. Back in 2008, there was a study from the University of Texas who estimated you need eight oranges today to get the same level of nutrition that your great great grandmother would have out of one single orange due to tilling of the soil, the pesticides, right? Modern farming. So we have dysbiosis, which leads to toxins coming out or your toxins contribute to this as well. We have nutrient deficiencies because our food is more fake.   Michelle (13:22) Yeah, crazy.   Josh Dech - CHN (13:36) And then we have microbial imbalances overgrowing. No wonder your body's throwing a fit. Because since the beginning of time, whether you believe it was 5 ,000 years or 500 billion years, since the beginning of time, we've never had these issues. In fact, still today, the further away you go from the Western world, where we're eating all this food and covered in these toxins and these chemicals, the further away you go, the less disease you see. There's a direct correlation to living back naturally. Hunter gatherer tribes, they're like, what is infertility?   What do mean back pain? what are arthritis, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, kidney disease, liver disease, diabetes. What are those? They don't skin issues, acne. These are things we call normal. They've never seen it before. And this is why this is how we get disease. Yeah.   Michelle (14:16) Yeah.   That is so crazy. I mean, it's really crazy. It's crazy to think about and it's crazy that this is acceptable and that there's no regulation and nobody's really protecting the health of the people. mean, enough is enough. Like it's just so frustrating because we, because people know that it's bad. They know it and they do it anyway. And, and in many countries, many of these pesticides are banned and they know that it can impact fertility. Now they're linking a lot of them.   Josh Dech - CHN (14:33) I hear you.   Michelle (14:50) So it's so frustrating. It's so frustrating for me to see my patients having to climb an uphill battle just so that they can protect their reproductive health. Like it's just crazy. And also it's interesting that you were talking about how the dysbiosis has passed on from situations or conditions such as Crohn's disease.   Josh Dech - CHN (15:03) Yeah.   Michelle (15:15) And it's interesting because like people would say, it's inherited, it's DNA. You would think that it's kind of the DNA, but it's actually, you're saying that it's the dysbiosis that's being passed on. I'm sure there's some level of DNA, like susceptibility as well, but that's kind of an interesting take or an understanding of it because you're like, okay, like that's not something that people thought about. And we know very well.   Josh Dech - CHN (15:33) sure.   Well, I'd love to...   Michelle (15:43) that the mother passes on her microbiome to the baby.   Josh Dech - CHN (15:48) She does. Yeah. I'd love to break those three things for you I could Michelle and just a matter of minutes. You know, we look at IBD Crohn's colitis. It's just genetic. It's autoimmune or there's no known cause. Well, we just talked about number one. These are the three pillars that stands on for your doctor to say it's meds for life or surgery. That's what they have.   Michelle (16:06) So you're saying this is the perspective of medicine, what you just said. Yeah. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (16:11) Yeah, sorry, let me clarify. So if you've been diagnosed with Crohn's colitis or even IBS, you've been told it's genetic or it's an autoimmune condition or there's no known cause. That's what your doctors told you to date. And they say your best bet is medication or surgery. That's your only hope. What I'm saying is none of that makes sense. And I'll tell you why idiopathic means no known cause. We just talked about seven different causes inherited dysbiosis increase in toxins and chemicals. The last hundred years we've had   80 to 100 ,000 new chemicals added to our lives, most of them in our food. And so what you put in your gut, you're going to tell me doesn't affect my gut. That's nonsense. That's number one. So there has to be a cause because we've seen cases, even looking at the data per CDC, about 3 million cases worldwide in 1990. Today it's seven to 8 million. So cases have doubled, almost tripled in the last 30 years. So there has to be a cause. So it can't be unknown. Like they say it is number two.   Michelle (17:08) Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (17:11) They say that it's just genetic. Well, 50 % of those seven or eight million cases, North America is less than 5 % of the population. They have 50 to 60 % of all the world's cases of bowel diseases. So when 5 % has 50 % in the last 30 years where it's blown up, it cannot just be genetic. That would take thousands of years and most of those things weed themselves out of the gene pool. The last one is it's autoimmune.   Well, looking at the actual antibodies per studies, the ones that we see, even like P. Anka, we call it. This one, 70 % of those with ulcerative colitis will have this antibody. Well, it can be caused by mesalamine, a drug they use to treat Crohn's colitis, by stress, by fungal infections, by other bacterial overgrows, antibiotics. These antibodies, only 40 to 60 % have any antibodies at all. And the ones that do,   can be very well explained by nearly anything else that can go on inside the body, such as dysbiosis states, parasites, infections, antibiotic use, the very drugs in Miran, azathioprine, the ones they use to treat Crohn's and colitis can cause these antibodies. So it can't be autoimmune. And even if it was truly autoimmune, at least 50 % don't have any antibodies at all, but you're treating it like it's autoimmune. So the three pillars they have to stand on, Michelle, to say you need drugs for the rest of your life.   Michelle (18:23) Wow.   Josh Dech - CHN (18:34) There's no hope for you. Your life is basically ruined. It's management or we cut the organs out. None of it makes any sense by their own data. And this, this little perspective shift changes everything.   Michelle (18:41) No.   My God, this is so important. It's so important that people hear this because I think that we just take it for what it is for truth, absolute truth. When we go and I've had, I've had the same situation for my irregular periods, but you know, it could be anything. And then you're going and you get an answer that, you know, just doesn't seem to feel right. And you talk about the possibility to cure diseases. Can all diseases be cured?   Josh Dech - CHN (19:12) Yeah, it's really interesting because I like to throw that question out there because the word cure is sort of a dirty word in the Western world. It's not something they are. And most doctors are because it's a huge claim to make. I cannot legally in my practice, because I'm not a medical doctor, right? I work with doctors, I'm a physician's consultant, and that's all great, but I'm not a doctor. I cannot legally use the words cure, treat, or heal in the context of what I do. But what I can say is this.   Michelle (19:20) Yeah, people are afraid of it. Yeah. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (19:43) I believe all diseases have a root. Disease is not innate to your biology or DNA. We even talk about genetics, right? Let's go back to the genetic weak link of bowel disease. Sure, you get five people in a room, Michelle, you expose everybody to mold. One gets really bad periods. One gets Crohn's or colitis. One gets asthma. One gets Parkinson's disease. Another one gets nothing. Because when your genes are exposed, say dysbiosis, it puts stress on the genetic links, the genetic chain.   When you're toxic or infected, it puts stress. There's a study called neutrogenomics, which is nutrients and genetics and their correlation and reactions together were depleted. So these genes are getting stretched and pulled on the chain. The weak link is the one that snaps first. So there's no doubt there's a genetic component to bowel disease or what you're dealing with, but there are things that are stressing that chain. If you can pull down the stress and give your body what it needs to simply function normally, you're going to be just fine.   Michelle (20:28) Mm.   Josh Dech - CHN (20:42) Your body's gonna do what it has to do. It's gonna heal itself. And these quote genetic conditions sort of just go away because they were never really genetic. It was just exploiting what may have been a weak link. You go, well, I had my gene tested. I've got the MTHFR, so I can't methylate. I can't do this. Every form of natural nutrients that comes from the soil, that comes from animal meat, that comes from the earth in any way, your body will use a methylate.   It's all the artificial or fortified versions. It's the folic acid. They spray on the grains and crops. It's not the actual nutrients from earth. It's the artificial stuff you can't use. So don't beat yourself up about it. Just grow your own food.   Michelle (21:11) Mm -hmm. Right. Correct. Yeah.   Ooh, I love that. It's so true and it's so nice to hear it put in that way for people listening to this that's a huge issue for a lot of people trying to conceive because for so long, they've been having folic acid and also if they're eating grains, even if they don't want folic acid, it's kind of like shoved in our faces. So we're forced to eat it. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (21:41) Yes, and folic acid is basically poison. I mean, we know, right? Tested like MTHFR, popularized gene, there's a snip in there, changes your morphology, how your genes will activate. 44 % cannot use folic acid, but doctors give folic acid to 100 % of women who are pregnant. Why? If you can't use the folic acid, it actually can cause blood pressure issues. It can cause all kinds of issues, cognitive impairment, anxiety, depressive issues, gut issues.   Michelle (22:02) Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (22:10) probably fertility issues, right? I can't speak to that one specifically, but I would guess through the chain of events. Well, there you go. So you're being given a drug that almost 50 % of the population can't, I call it a drug because it's artificial, that you cannot use that can cause other health complications. Well, no wonder you have gestational diabetes. No wonder you have hypertension. No wonder you have these, you know, prenatal conditions. The Western world treats pregnancy like a disease state. You are sick. We have to treat you, but it's not.   Michelle (22:14) Yeah, yeah, it does. For some people, yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (22:40) In the inflammatory markers you get from pregnancy, all these different things, they're actually normal and they're actually a biological beneficial process, which is also connected to your gut, oddly enough.   Michelle (22:52) Everything's connected to your gut. So talk to us. It really is. The more I do this, the more I realize this. It's kind of like just everything's the center. Even Chinese medicine, the spleen and stomach are the digestive couple. And every couple, there's like a yin and yang pair of organs. Every one of them has a different direction. The spleen and stomach is the center. It's kind of like where everything comes from.   Josh Dech - CHN (22:54) All of it.   Mm   Michelle (23:20) So it really is so important and that's, it really comes down to your gut health. So talk to us about like what people can do and really how like kind of take us through like the inflammatory process or the anti -inflammatory approach to your gut.   Josh Dech - CHN (23:38) Yeah, first thing is we just have to remove the nail. That's it. You know, your body is reacting to so much and I describe it like this. Picture your body's like a cup of water. I I got a cup of water next to me here. So picture this cup gets full and fuller and fuller. As the cup starts to fill up, you start to develop symptoms. I'm having menstrual issues. I'm having PMS. I'm having some infertility. I'm having some skin issues. I'm not sleeping. I'm having anxiety, depression, gut issues, et cetera. These are the symptoms you develop.   Michelle (23:41) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (24:07) Now when that cup finally overflows, you now go into your doctor and they say, you have this disease. Cause they're looking at everything that's gotten wet. go, yep, this is just a condition you have. The floor is wetiosis. All right. And they go, this is just what it is. We don't look at what led to it. We don't look at what contributed instead. We go, yep, it's just part of your disease process. It's part of your body. Here's some management for your symptoms. This is numbing cream on the foot. That's what it is. Rather than taking the nail out.   Michelle (24:07) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (24:35) And so we're looking at disease, understand something's filling your cup. And this is how we can begin reversing it. Number one, we have to look at one, what is filling the cup? So this is going to go back to your environment, back to your gut, your microbes, that when the defenses came down, the moat was empty. What came into the castle? That's number one. Number two, how do we drain the body? Cause everyone talks about detoxing. You'll hear 10 day detox, seven day detox, 24 hour detox is always something to sensationalize. But there's all these detoxes.   Michelle (25:01) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (25:04) Yes, your body is detoxing constantly on its own and yes, sometimes it can use some support. There's a good reason for that. But something we often miss is called drainage. Detoxing is gathering the trash. Drainage is bringing it out to the curb. So yes, your liver, your kidneys, your bile ducts are one that most people miss, gallbladder and bile ducts. That's one of the most crucial parts of healing and inflammation. We have to look at your skin, your sinuses, your lungs.   Michelle (25:19) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (25:31) Lymphatics, even your blood, these are all drainage or detox pathways. They help move and transport and organize toxins, but also get them out of the body. So sinuses, skin, lymphatics, et cetera. This is drainage. If we don't have this properly supported, I don't care how many parasite protocols you take or antifungal meds you take or how many detoxes you do. If it's not getting out of the body, it's just moving or it's still collecting. And so it's continuing to fill your glass. Right?   Michelle (25:56) Right.   Josh Dech - CHN (25:58) Your doctor looks at all the things filling up your glass. They don't use it to figure out what's happening or what's causing it. They use it, what's called diagnostic criteria. So they are looking simply to check the symptoms, do their tests in order to meet what fits this box. Once you have enough checks to color in this box, we then can give you these drugs in this order. If they don't work, snip, snip, here's your surgery. And the idea is again, disease is innate.   Michelle (26:23) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (26:25) You just have these symptoms, therefore you just have this condition. There's nothing we can do. And here's how we'll manage. Rather than looking at your symptoms that led to the disease in reverse engineering the process, what is filling your glass and preventing it from emptying? If Western medicine did that, they'd be bankrupt, which is probably why they don't. Because you're talking the three biggest industries, Michelle, in North America are healthcare, so hospitalization, health insurance, and pharmaceuticals.   It makes up 18 % of the entire US GDP. So 18 % of the entire income of the United States of America is healthcare. Yet they are the sickest country on earth. Six out of 10 adults have some kind of chronic illness or chronic inflammatory condition. Six out of 10, it's $4 .7 trillion a year to manage disease. It'd probably be more like 50 to 100 billion. So pennies on the dollar really, if you actually cured everything.   So there is a huge financial incentive to not actually hear anybody. That's messed up.   Michelle (27:26) That's so crazy. I mean, I think it's so messed up. I mean, it's really messed up. think a lot of people know this and there's definitely a lot of money moving around between the food industry and the pharmaceuticals, which I mean, you know, like why.   Josh Dech - CHN (27:44) Yeah, yeah. You get a CEO who goes from Bayer Monsanto, who by the way, just paid out $11 billion with a B, $11 billion in lawsuits because their glyphosate product caused so many cases of cancer. There's over a hundred thousand lawsuits pending. They paid it over 11 billion with another 30 to 40 ,000 lawsuits still pending. And guess what? They're still allowed to use the product. Even though it's been proven hundreds of thousands of times to cause cancer and other dangers.   because super unethical, we live in a horribly unethical system based on lobbying. Get one more for you. There's a chemical called chlorpyrifos. It's an organophosphate. Organophosphates are nerve agents. If you've ever heard of sarin gas, for example, used in the Tokyo subway attacks in the eighties in Syria against the Halabja people, it's a nerve agent. It is a toxin, organophosphates, particularly sarin gas.   Michelle (28:15) It's so unethical.   Yeah.   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (28:41) Well, there's 800 plus organophosphates of the same class, these nerve agents that are used on our food. One recently was re -approved for use called chlorpyrifos just back in November 23 or December 23, was re -approved for use. Well, this was being explored in the 1930s and 40s by Nazi scientists as chemical warfare on humans, but they put it in our food. Then you get people going, well, the poison makes the dose. Okay, I get that. Yeah, if it was.   Michelle (28:47) Mm   man.   Josh Dech - CHN (29:09) microns of chlorpyrifos, your body would get rid of it. But we got over a billion pounds of chemicals every year on our food that we consume. We've actually consumed now four times more pesticides per person than we used to in the 90s, because there's so many more of them. The poison that know, the dose makes the poison. Yes. But we've also 17 times our dose, of course, we're so toxic, of course, everyone's poisoned. And so these are the things we have to consider.   Michelle (29:34) Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (29:37) But circling back, these are the toxins contributing to your glass filling up. So you want to empty the bathtub, turn off the tap, right? So let's put a hole in the toxins. Simple as the clean 15 and dirty dozen list from the EWG, Environmental Working Group. Go organic where you can, or just don't buy it, right? There's a lot of other ways. It doesn't have to have the organic label. I don't buy all organic. There's a farmer's marketing in my house.   Michelle (29:45) Yeah.   Right.   Josh Dech - CHN (30:02) And I talked to the farmers, they do one fungicide spray at beginning of the year on the ground, and then all their crops grow. That is a risk reward ratio I'm willing to accept. It's the same price, but there's one spray instead of the average strawberry has like 12 pesticides on it. And so that's what I'm willing to accept for myself. And I will adapt to the rest. And so turn off the tap, start changing out the toxic environment, start making some of these better modifications. One of the top toxins or pollutants for humans is actually recirculated indoor air. Open your windows.   Michelle (30:03) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (30:32) Just where you can, open them up, let some fresh air come in. And this we can start, this is turning off the tap. Then we can open our drainage and detox pathways. And then we can begin removing the invaders that came into the castle. And then we can begin repairing and rebuilding the walls and everything that was destroyed after these invaders came in. That's sort of the process affectionately typically referred to as the five Rs. There's sort of an acronym we can use in there for that, but that's the idea.   Michelle (30:33) Hmm, yeah.   Yeah. And a lot of people just say, then I'll just get probiotics. But then I, I'm learning, you know, that not are created equal. So I wanted to get your thoughts on that. Like I just, the different types of probiotics, everything comes out. Another company says, ours is special because of this, that, and the other. Then there's a spore based probiotics, which are more likely to survive our entire tract. So.   Josh Dech - CHN (31:04) Mm.   Yes.   Michelle (31:26) I'd love to pick your brain on that.   Josh Dech - CHN (31:29) I'd love to sure. So spore based probiotics, they're more like seeds, and they're typically coded to get to the large intestine. This is where 90 % of your intestinal bacteria actually live is in the large intestine right where it connects to the small intestine and that whole area there. That's where most of them live. And so the spores will get there the like seeds that plant and grow trees that bear fruit. We have other probiotics, which you're right, not all are made equally, a lot of them will come in, they're dead, but you still can get benefits. If you think about   Let's go to pro, pre and post biotics, right? The three things I think we often get mixed up. I think of it like fish in a fish bowl. Probiotics are the fish, the living organism that swim around in the bowl. Prebiotics are fish food and postbiotics are what the fish poop out. If you look at your bacteria the same, they're your fish in your fish bowl, the living organisms, the probiotics are the fish. This is what moves around and engages with your body. They do so much for you. They produce vitamins and minerals and nutrients.   Michelle (32:04) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Josh Dech - CHN (32:28) help balance hormones and detoxify and help with your immune system. They do all kinds of great things, mostly through how they signal to the body. But then your prebiotics are what they eat. So this is going to be your fibers, it's going to be your carbs and starches, some proteins, there's going to be some things that they will consume, which creates the post biotics your body likes, the short chain fatty acids and minerals or the vitamins and all these things. And so we consume probiotics, a lot of them we eat are dead.   So you're still getting the postbiotic or the bacterial poop, if you will, of all the benefits, which come in, come out in a couple of days. It might be very short term and they're kind of out the door, but along the way they can have a lot of really good beneficial signaling to the body, to the immune system. It's like a radio signal. They come in and out beep, beep, beep, beep, they send signals back and forth. Your body makes changes. On the other hand, what a lot of people don't recognize is maybe if you have a condition like SIBO, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth,   Michelle (33:00) Mm   Mm -hmm.   Josh Dech - CHN (33:25) you have a bacterial overgrowth. Sometimes adding probiotics in, there are classes of bacteriums called bacteriocins, which will kill bacteria. So they might be beneficial in SIBO. For example, lactobacillus reuteri or rooteri, call it tomato tomata. But this one can act as a bacteriocin has been shown in clinical to be beneficial in a lot of cases for SIBO to reduce the bacteria. On the other hand, some might contribute to the problem. I had a client with parasites.   Michelle (33:42) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (33:55) And she was consuming a lot of probiotics, which were higher in histamines, which contribute to the issue because parasites also can create histamine issues. Even bone broth was bad for her gut because it's high in histamine. And so it made her issues worse. so considering we got probably a thousand, maybe 2000 species, seven to 9 ,000 strains of bacteria makes 15 to 20 million different bacteria. In fact, there's a hundred, think it's 130 times more DNA in your gut bacteria.   Michelle (34:07) Mm -hmm, right.   Josh Dech - CHN (34:25) than you actually have in the rest of your body. 23 ,000 genes or so in your human genome, 3 million genes inside of your bacteria. So you take this handful of probiotics out of 3 million different genetic strains, it's like a grain of sand on a beach. It may help, it may not. I wouldn't rely on them as a fix all. And there's a lot of ways in there where you can actually cause more problems. You could put black sand on a white beach and you're gonna notice it until it gets mixed in and disperses enough. It can create a problem. And so we have to really   Michelle (34:39) Yeah, yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (34:54) keep an eye on what we're putting into our body. I think throwing probiotics in sort of willy -nilly can lead to a lot of issues.   Michelle (35:02) Yeah. What about a Sporebase, which are better for SIBO? What are your thoughts on that?   Josh Dech - CHN (35:07) Well, spore based, see they're better for SIBO. I've heard that as well. I think my initial thought is look, they get to the large intestine, less so the small intestine. So we're not contributing to the small intestinal issues. But one of the contributors I do see of SIBO, for example, would be parasites. They tend to hang in the bile ducts, like we talked about there, the all important drainage pathways in the liver of the appendix and what's called the ileocecal valve. So right where your small and large intestine will actually connect.   Michelle (35:16) Mm   Mm   Mm -hmm.   Josh Dech - CHN (35:37) Parasites can hang out in these issues actually messing with your valves. So even if you have spores going into the large intestine, they can still backflow because the valves will say are broken or jacked up can get into the small intestine. And a lot of SIBO conditions are fecal microbes. So large bowel microbes getting into the small intestine where they should not be. And these areas can cause a lot of problems now too. So I don't know if I'd say they're better for or maybe just less bad then, but maybe it can contribute to the problem. It's hard to say.   Michelle (35:40) Mm.   Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (36:07) But ultimately, know, SIBO is a really nasty condition to have to deal with, but I've seen it as one of the roots that can develop into Crohn's or colitis as well, other bowel diseases.   Michelle (36:17) Wow. And what about parasites? So what are some of the things that you can do to, because a lot of times you won't see that in like more generic tests.   Josh Dech - CHN (36:27) Yeah, they're very difficult to detect parasites. Even some of the best testing you'll get for stool testing, you're 40 % accurate unless you're finding ovum, live worms or protozoa eggs, et cetera. You know, there's about a million different types of parasites estimated that are available on planet earth. About 1400 can infect humans and you know, it's like, well, I've taken ivermectin or I've taken babendazole or fembendazole some kind of Zol, which is supposed to be good for parasites and they can be.   Michelle (36:35) Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (36:55) But of the 1400 types, you might not be targeting more than three or four. And again, if your drainage pathways aren't open, you're not really going to be successfully clearing stuff. And so we're looking at parasites. say testing is relatively inaccurate. We have to go by symptoms and even blood, blood chemistry. It's not something I'm an expert in, but I do know people who are very proficient in what's called functional blood chemistry. Well, they'll look at your blood work and go, definitely you have a parasite and here's where I think it is or what type I think it is, which   To me is like wizardry. I just have no idea. I'm not that good at blood work, but it's really amazing art. so testing is not amazing for them. Most doctors believe parasites are a third world problem because that's what they were told 20 years ago in med school. But look what we have, the level of immigration we have, the level of import export we have, the level of accessibility for traveling all around the world that we have. Maybe if they used to be, but they're everywhere now to the point where if you've got a pulse, you probably got a parasite.   Michelle (37:32) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (37:51) The question is, it causing you a problem right now or not? Because parasites, fungi, bacteria, viruses, they all live in harmony in a healthy gut. With great great grandmothers, 1000 microbes. But now we've got 200 microbes, this dysbiotic state, these opportunistic parasites or fungi or bacteria now overgrow because they have the room to do so. Nothing's keeping them in check. And now they're a problem. So this isn't to say parasites are all bad. Sometimes they're very, very good.   Michelle (38:19) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Josh Dech - CHN (38:21) but they're now becoming problematic because we're all so sick.   Michelle (38:24) So what do you do and what are some of the symptoms that people can have?   Josh Dech - CHN (38:28) so many. So we look at parasites, again, going through symptomatology, I like that we bring this through, because symptoms often speak louder than testing. That's something you have to keep in mind. Again, a parasite test at 40 % accuracy can come back negative 10 times in a row. So we have to look at, you know, abdominal pain. Do you have pain when you palpate or press around the liver, the gallbladder? Do you have all your organs? So looking at tonsils, appendix, gallbladder, if you've lost those, there may be a parasite route.   Michelle (38:38) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (38:58) back pain, hip pain, like joint pains, seasonal allergies or other allergies that seem to come up. If you have gut issues and gut symptoms, for example, that may be come and go. So every couple of weeks up and then they're down or seasonally, for example, this could be parasites due to their life cycles, high cholesterol or liver enzymes that are elevated, frequent sinus infections, anemia, because parasites will actually eat iron. They can eat   like lungs, liver, kidneys, they can eat iron, they can eat lymphatic fluids if you've got lymphatic issues, mumps chronically, tonsillitis chronically, these can be parasitic issues in nature. Even infertility. Parasites love especially female reproductive organs. So PCOS can sometimes be a parasitic issue at the root or a metabolic issue which may have a parasitic component because parasites can get to these areas in your body.   actually encapsulate them in a cyst or a tumor, hence cancers, which is actually a protective mechanism or thought to be protective, where it's trying to enclose these things in rather than DNA mutating and causing a problem. We can have anxiety, depression, hair loss, early hair loss, liver enzymes are elevated, think I mentioned that, psoriasis, eczema, really classic symptoms, rashes and hives, that's just a handful. There's probably 50 or 60 symptoms that could be parasites.   but we have to go back to context. You know, have rashes and hives, okay, well could be something else. There could be parasites. Let's look at the rest of the symptoms. I'm not saying if you have one of these things or all these things, I mean, if you have all these things, probably parasites, but if you just have a few, it could be something else, but I wouldn't rule parasites out.   Michelle (40:34) Mm   And what do you usually do to treat them?   Josh Dech - CHN (40:43) Great question. This is something that can be very finicky. Again, a lot of people I talk to, you're hearing this going, I've taken a parasite protocol, I've done a cleanse, it didn't help. You're trying to evict tenants from the building. Are the doors unlocked? And so if you're trying to get rid of parasites, is your drainage open? So we have to work on drainage support. What we do with clients, it's a combination of a lot of things. There's supplementation, there's nutritional, there's lifestyle. Sometimes it's a combination of acupuncture enemas, like coffee enemas.   Michelle (40:57) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (41:13) There's a lot of different things we can utilize the open drainage pathways, but everyone's different. And it's something that it really should be done on a supervision. I know you're hearing this right now. Go, I can do that. I can do acupuncture might help you. It might not. It is, but I don't want you putting yourself in the hospital. I have to say that because we can move too many toxins too quickly. You can actually create a commonly known Herc's Heimer reaction, Herc's H -R -X. And this Herc's Heimer reaction is just   Michelle (41:13) Mm   Mm   Yeah, that's important.   Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (41:41) Basically, you're taking too many toxins, you're mobilizing them and your body can't get rid of them properly and you're making yourself very ill. So this is definitely a professional supervision issue, but these are things we can do. So number one is drainage in tandem with or post actually getting rid of or reducing your toxic loads for no longer, right? Turn off the tap. We have to open the drainage pathway so things can get out. We have to begin removing very systematically the problem. I've got clients say 10 of them who are taking the exact same parasite protocol for parasites.   Michelle (41:45) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (42:11) but what they're actually doing is that they're taking them 10 different ways, right? Some of them are tapering in one day on, seven off, one day on, six off, one and five. Some are doing full moon protocol. Some are high dose, some are low. Some are cycling through. Some are consistent dosing. Everyone's different based on their presentations and going the wrong way can make people very, very sick as well. So it's a bit of a tailored and catered process, but the gist would be drainage support.   antiparasitic, supporting what your body lacks or needs, mitochondrial support, so cellular health and cellular well -being, because that's really where drainage and detoxing starts, is at the cellular level, not the macro level so much. And this is sort of a brief overview of that might look like.   Michelle (42:55) So interesting. And another question that I have, a lot of times you'll hear about the keto diet and how I'm not big on fad diets in general, because it's like everything's customized, but you hear about the benefits for some people. The thing with that is that there's barely any fiber. It's really, really low in fiber. So I just wanted to get your take on that.   Josh Dech - CHN (43:05) Sure.   Sure. It was really interesting. Look at someone like Michaela Peterson, right? Does an amazing job with the lion diet, which is basically red meat, salt and water. I am not against it. I think it's a great therapeutic diet. I'm not sold entirely. I've met with some amazing carnivore doctors and specialists, but I will say I don't believe plants are inherently bad for humans. I do believe an animal based diet tends to be better, but the question has to be asked, is it the pesticides and the chemicals on our food that makes plants the problem?   Is it plants themselves? Is it the GMOs and the crops that never existed even 100 or 500 years ago that were not accustomed to eating? The arguments can be made for dairy, where humans have only really domesticated dairy animals for 10 to 15 ,000 years. So are we really adapted to eating dairy? Have we developed or evolved these enzymes and processes to properly assimilate dairy? So the argument about plants versus animal -based   I can put it on a very macro level without getting to the nitty gritty and say this. The bigger fish in the bowl, we talked about prebiotics, they eat fiber, right? The bigger fish in the fish bowl will eat first. If you have an overgrowth of bad bacterium, we'll say, we'll say opportunistic, they're causing you problems and they eat first, they poop out problematic things. So going to the lion diet, you're not gonna get nearly as many microbes eating meat, for example, as they would fibers or starches or sugars. So if you cut those things out right away,   you've reduced the poop or the byproducts, we call them endotoxins of these microbes by simply cutting fiber. And so you may be starving some out, you may be just not getting over gross, you may be no longer contributing to poisons or toxins so much. And there's two arguments to be made. Well, the beef or the animal might filter the toxins. The other argument is what's called bio magnification, which is where it condenses all these toxins in the tissues, which you then consume. But you can't argue with the data, millions of people.   Michelle (44:49) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (45:15) all over the world go carnivore or keto and feel better. The question is, do I believe carbs are inherently bad for you? No. Do I believe they should be more sparingly? Yes, just simply biologically. but, but, but this is the big but, we have to understand that your current state of health and how it's utilizing what you're putting into it makes all the difference. You could put gasoline into a car and it's going to drive for miles. You put gasoline into a car that's on fire and it's going to make a bigger fire.   Michelle (45:19) Mm   Mm   Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (45:45) So it's not the fuel source necessarily that I believe is the problem as much as the body you're putting it into and what's going on on a microbial level.   Michelle (45:51) Yes. that's so important. And I think that, yeah, a lot of what you're saying is so important, but that's really the key crux of it is that your body and your body's condition and your snapshot in time at this moment has unique needs, even unique to five years ago, the same body, which actually it's a different body because the body changes all the time. So it is really important that you work with somebody.   Josh Dech - CHN (46:04) Yeah.   Michelle (46:17) and not do this at home on your own and not self -diagnose because it could be very tempting to do. This is great information, but just hold yourself back from self -diagnosing. Reach out to people like Josh. So actually my next question, if people do want to work with you, how can they reach you? How can they find out more about your work and what you do and get help with their own gut and inflammation?   Josh Dech - CHN (46:19) Yes.   Yeah, I'd love to be able to help Michelle. The quickest way to reach me, you can find everything you need through our website, gutsolution .ca. We got clients in 26 different countries and all the concurrent time zones. So don't worry about where you're located. We can help. That's gutsolution, all singular, .ca for Canada. You can find our podcast, Reversible, where it's about the gut. It's all how all things impact the gut and vice versa. Michelle, we had you record an episode there recently and it's how our gut and our world interact. It's called Reversible.   Reverse Able, the Ultimate Gut Health podcast. And there's also one we released recently about, I'd say six or eight weeks ago, it's called Reversing Crohn's and Colitis Naturally. And it's all about just Crohn's, Colitis and the cruxes and the roots and how we actually get at the root causes of these. But all that can be found, the website, the podcast, contact, help information can all be found at gutsolution .ca.   Michelle (47:37) And how do you work with people?   Josh Dech - CHN (47:38) Yeah, contrary to what most people believe, we don't actually need to see you in person at all. Strictly through symptoms, I get photos if we need them. We'll have you take pictures of your fingernails, pictures of your tongue, for example. It's part of Chinese medicine, as you know, can give us lots of information. We look at blood work. We'll look at your symptoms. We'll look at you as an individual. And we'll spend, I'll spend 30 minutes to an hour on a first call. We get someone through the program and register. There's probably 100, 200 different questions.   Michelle (47:49) Mm   Mm   Josh Dech - CHN (48:08) Extremely thorough intake we do secondary interviews then we do programming and we actually work with you on a weekly basis for 16 weeks very hand -holding process and that's what it looks like because Dealing with bowel disease, know that things can change in an instant You can go from healthy to a flare or healthy to sick to constipation to diarrhea What your doctor does is here's a med see me in three to six months. We'll see how you're doing That doesn't help. You're barely managing and your body can be so finicky   Michelle (48:33) Mm Yeah. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (48:37) And so our job is 16 weeks. And I'll tell you, Michelle, we had a lady recently came out of our program was working not with myself, actually, with Curtis, one of our other specialists. And 16 weeks, she came out after 15 years. She was diagnosed in 2013, a couple of years of bowel disease before that. Her colon was so severe, she described it as squirrels with razor blades running around on her insides. So severe, they were on the cusp of cutting her bowels out. 16 weeks, she came back, her doctors jaw on the floor is like, I've never seen anything like this.   Michelle (48:58) my God, wow. Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (49:06) perfect colonoscopy. had one little speck left that we're still obviously going to be fixing, but it took 16 weeks. That's it. And not everybody responds as well. Some respond quicker, but this is what's possible. And I just really want to encourage just if you're listening to this right now, you're like, I've got Crohn's colitis or even severe IBS. I've been told it's genetic autoimmune. There's no known cause. So much can be done. Just start with the website. There's podcasts on there. There's information on that. There's videos on there.   Michelle (49:14) Wow.   Yeah.   Josh Dech - CHN (49:35) There's so much about it that we just want to creak that door open for you and show you what's possible. But again, just head to gut solution .ca and do some diving.   Michelle (49:44) Awesome. Josh, this is amazing. Really, really amazing. And also so important. I can't even stress it enough. I see it a lot even in my patients that come in. and something that I think everybody listening to this, if you're trying to conceive,   you have to go check out Josh and listen to his podcast and learn more because I think it's just so valuable. So thank you so much for coming on today. This is great.   Josh Dech - CHN (50:07) Thank you.   It's been a pleasure, Michelle. And if I could leave one little nugget, if you're considering, if you're trying to conceive or have plans in the future, get ahead of the gut because you can, we talked about great grandma passing down this dysbiosis to you, you can pass down disease to your children. It'll be called genetic. I've seen babies, know, infants. I'm talking a couple of months to two, three years old with bowel disease because we just didn't know ahead of time that we need to be dealing with our gut issues before having children.   because these are the issues we can pass. All those opportunistic microbes, the fungi and parasites, they will come from you to your baby. And this goes both ways. The sperm quality has a lot more to do with it than we used to. We used to say, well, everything's up to mom. It is in development, but even the sperm quality, if mom or dad have gut issues, there's a much higher risk for your baby having some kind of issue down the road. And I just really want to encourage you, if you think there might be gut stuff where you know there's a diagnosis, start there.   long before conception, only will it help in your ability to conceive but to carry a baby to full term and have a healthy baby to give them the best possible future. That's where we start. We have to start in your guts.   Michelle (51:20) So important. Thank you so much, Josh.   Josh Dech - CHN (51:23) A pleasure, Michelle. Thank you for having me.    

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I speak to longevity expert Leslie Kenny. @lesliesnewprime   Leslie shares her personal journey of overcoming autoimmune diseases and infertility through patient empowerment and alternative therapies. She emphasizes the importance of partnering with doctors and exploring alternative treatments that resonate with individuals. Leslie's story highlights the power of lifestyle changes, such as an anti-inflammatory diet and the use of anti-aging molecules like spermidine in improving health and reversing the aging process.    Our conversation covers the topic of spermidine and its role in healthy aging. Spermidine is a compound found in our diet and produced by our gut biome. It is correlated with healthy lifespan and can be obtained from plants and fermented foods. Our conversation also touches on gluten-free options for spermidine, the importance of fiber in the diet, and the potential benefits of systemic enzymes.    Leslie also shared her personal experience with hypothyroidism and the importance of finding a doctor who will help you uncover solutions for your reproductive health.    Podcast Takeaways: Partnering with doctors and exploring alternative treatments can empower patients to take control of their health. Lifestyle changes, such as an anti-inflammatory diet, can have a significant impact on autoimmune diseases and overall health. Anti-aging molecules like spermidine and rapamycin have the potential to slow down the aging process and improve fertility. Maintaining a balanced hormonal system is crucial for reproductive health and overall well-being. Spermidine can promote cell renewal and recycling. Spermidine is correlated with healthy lifespan and can be obtained from plants and fermented foods. Fiber is important for the gut biome to produce spermidine. Finding a doctor who believes in you and is willing to explore your symptoms is crucial.   Guest Bio:   Leslie is a longevity expert, and co-founder of the prestigious Oxford Longevity Project, a non-profit that brings scientists together to discuss breakthroughs around the science of ageing and autophagy, which is our body's natural cell recycling system.   www.oxfordhealthspan.com - Use coupon code WHOLESOMELOTUS for 15% off all items!   https://www.instagram.com/lesliesnewprime/ https://oxfordlongevityproject.org       Learn more about my new book “The Way of Fertility” here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:   https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast Leslie.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (00:02) Thanks so much for having me, Michelle. It's a pleasure.   Michelle (00:05) So I would love for you to share your story of how you got into the work that you do today. And I know that you're very passionate. We just had a little pre -talk and I'm very excited to get started.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (00:14) You   Well, my story is one of patient empowerment, just like you. And it started, as it can with many women, with a fertility quest. So in my mid to late 30s, I really wanted to have a baby and found that I was having problems. So started with IUI, did three of those, didn't work, and then moved on to IVF.   And it was as I was doing my fifth IVF round with donor eggs, I might add, and being mixed race, I'll tell you, it's not easy to find a donor, you know? And it was a high stakes game, as it were. And right before embryo transfer, I began to notice pain in my hands. I was having trouble.   Michelle (00:54) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (01:08) using scissors, turning doorknobs, turning faucets. And I just thought, strange, I think this is probably what arthritis feels like. I better just have it checked out since obviously I want this IVF with donor eggs to go perfectly. And I went to the doctor, she ran some tests. I thought, you know, they'd say, you know, it's something, have steroids do something that I'd heard of before. And instead she called me and asked me to have a meeting with her in her office.   Michelle (01:17) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (01:38) and always a bad sign, right? If they can't explain it to you over the phone, and if it's not the nurse telling you, there's nothing to worry about. So I went and talked to her and she said, you do have arthritis, it's rheumatoid arthritis. This is where your body is attacking your joints. And here are some pre -filled syringes that you can inject into your belly, they're immune suppressants to basically   Michelle (01:40) Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (02:08) halt your immune system from attacking your body. And, and I immediately said, Hmm, don't I want my immune system to be strong? Like, don't I need that? And she said, well, normally you would, but in this case, it looks like your body is fighting cancer, except you're trying to destroy your own tissues. So I thought, okay, well, fine. Got the drugs. these are tiny diabetic needles. It'll be okay.   And then she said, but you also have something else. You have lupus. And that I'd never heard of. It was almost as if she'd said, you you have funny tree disease or something. It just made no sense to me. I didn't know what it was, had never heard of it. And I said, what's that? And she said, another autoimmune disease. And I said, okay, so what's the prescription for that?   And she said, unfortunately, there isn't a prescription for that. There's really nothing that we have right now to treat it. And you will slowly and progressively get worse. And I said, this is really not a good time for me to have this happen because I'm doing my fifth IVF with donor eggs. I'm waiting for embryo transfer. This is a terrible time. Can't we do something?   something else, anything else? Is there anything I can do? No, there's nothing you can do. Like, could I do my diet, my sleep? No, there's nothing you can do. Well, but what about this round? You know, I've done a lot to tee this up and a lot of money has gone into this. As you probably know, I've put in over a hundred thousand US dollars at this point in time into all of these treatments. And she said, I wouldn't do it. Don't do it.   you have a good five years left. And I thought, okay, well, that's a big statement to make. And I was so gobsmacked by it.   Michelle (04:08) That's crazy.   Wait, wait, She was saying you have five years left to live? Is that what she was saying?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (04:16) That's how I interpreted it. That's how I interpreted that if I, if this was successful, if this round was successful, I would only be able to parent this child for five years or four years, I guess, as it were. And I, it was a lot to process. you know, if you're a patient and you're told you have one thing that's a lot to take on, you know, and then you're thinking about.   the treatment protocol and the things you have to do. And I think already, if it's not a tablet to swallow, but you're injecting yourself, that's another big thing to take on board. Then an illness that you've never heard of before where they say there's no treatment, there's no cure, and then she says five years left. I'm thinking in the back of my mind, thinking, have this, I want to become a mother. I have this.   cycle I have to go through, we're going to embryo transfer. My uterus has to be in good shape. What are you doing? What are you saying? How does this impact that? Because I've got acupunctures lined up for embryo transfer, right, before and after. And so I did have at least the presence of mind to say to her, can I, well, could this be a false positive? She said, no, we've done multiple types of tests.   Michelle (05:11) Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (05:35) and they all come back consistently indicating that you have these diseases. So then I said, can I test again? And she said, she shrugged her shoulders and said, sure, it's your insurance. So I vowed then and there that I would test again. And in the meantime, I would do everything possible. didn't matter what it was, whether it was my in uterine massage, which I did, or visualization, which I did.   Michelle (06:00) Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (06:05) or trauma work, which I did, or, you know, new therapy, intravenous immunoglobulin transfusions, which I did, an anti-inflammatory diet. I was gonna do it all. I was gonna throw the kitchen sink at it. And any woman who is trying to get pregnant knows exactly where I was and that feeling of, I've gotta make this happen. And I will just pull out all the stops. We're doing a full court press, right? And...   And so I did all those things and I came back within six months for a regular sort of review with your doctor. She opened the folder and she clearly not looked at the results ahead of time. And she said, well, look at that. You, don't have lupus and you don't have RA. And I said, would you like to know what I did? And she said, no, that's okay.   Michelle (06:54) What?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (07:04) And I said, well, that is, you know, that's pretty, that's pretty groundbreaking, right?   Michelle (07:11) Yeah,   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (07:12) so in any event, I was so, I was so shocked by all of this and, really for me, the penny dropped that doctors don't know everything that we treat them as if they must, that they are the Oracle and that they are the, the guide to whom we can outsource our health problems.   Michelle (07:23) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (07:35) But in fact, we have to work in partnership with them. And sometimes they're not willing for insurance or liability reasons to talk about or consider alternative therapies that might work. But we patients have the opportunity to explore those things that resonate with us that might have a meaningful impact. so my journey has really begun   Michelle (07:38) Yes.   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (08:04) as a patient advocate, really telling other women, you have more power than you think to move the needle on your health. And as a matter of fact, the things that you do might even be more important than what happens when you go to your acute care doctor, right? When you go into the doctor's office or into a hospital. And it has then...   taken me on a journey all the way to Oxford, England, where I ended up meeting a wonderful group of scientists here, a number of whom I helped fundraise for their companies for, all in the regenerative medicine space, and some of whom I've worked on longevity, healthy longevity advocacy.   other scientists whom I've worked on to bring an interesting anti -aging molecule called spermidine to market. So those are the...   Michelle (09:04) Yes. Is that, that's, that comes from   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (09:10) We can get it from wheat germ. We can get it from mushrooms. can get it from a huge variety of foods that are all plants. Essentially, if you want spermidine, it's almost exclusively in plants. only animal source is chicken liver, which is ironic because, of course, I remember my mother saying, you have to eat chicken liver. So moms do know, right? They've got a wisdom.   Michelle (09:19) Mm   Mm -hmm.   Yes.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (09:36) But it comes from plant sources. We also make it in our tissues. We moms make it in our breast milk. When we give it to our babies, it's there to help them grow. Men, of course, make it in their seminal fluid. is in there because DNA wraps itself around spermidine. And it's very tightly wound.   Michelle (10:00) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (10:04) Normally DNA is wrapped around something called histone bond. It's too big to really fit into semen. And it's also there in semen as an anti -inflammatory because it turns out that when men make sperm, it's a high reactive oxygen species event. Women and men can both make it in our gut biome as well. so those would be the main, the three sources would be from our tissue production.   Michelle (10:27) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (10:33) And that falls, that declines dramatically similar to the decline in production of estradiol, progesterone, testosterone, melatonin as we get older. And then the second area is the microbiome and then third is from our food.   Michelle (10:51) So interesting. So let's go back and talk about what, what do you think it was specifically that changed? Like, what do you think happened with your body? Because you came into the doctor and you had all the signs that showed that you had two different autoimmune diseases that she could pick up. And then you changed your diet, you changed your lifestyle. You really went through so much. and of course it's hard sometimes to figure out exactly what specifically, but now that you know what you know, and this is   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (11:03) Yeah.   Yum, yum.   Michelle (11:21) the work that you're doing. What are some of the things that come to mind?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (11:22) Hmm.   I went on an anti -inflammatory diet. So one of the first things I did was I researched a lot about both of these illnesses and I could see that inflammation was part of the root cause. And I'd heard about a diet called the Zone Anti -inflammatory Diet. This was popular in the early 2000s. And so I did that and that had a high emphasis on omega -3fatty acids.   on extra virgin olive oil. These are anti -inflammatories. It had a high emphasis on plants. And so my diet changed dramatically from more meat and charcuterie, sort of salami, these types of things over to plants. I also eliminated things which were known to be inflammatory triggers for me. So I had an allergy test done.   I could see that dairy was a problem, gluten was a problem, eggs happened to be a problem, which was a shame because I loved eggs. But we can't eat them every day and think the body won't notice. We have to kind of mix it up and have a diverse diet. So I essentially removed the inflammatory triggers to the immune system. I added in things that were naturally anti -inflammatory, like the omega -3s. And at the same time, when I did the intravenous immunoglobulin,   Michelle (12:44) you   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (12:50) I reset my immune system and there were studies in, there were small groups of patients with both rheumatoid arthritis and lupus who had done IVIG already in 2004 when I was diagnosed and I could see it work for them and I sort of felt like I have nothing to lose. It's kind of this or I wait for the inevitable.   And I did have people tell me, don't do the IVIG, because this was the time of mad cow disease. And people were quite concerned about prions, these proteins in blood plasma. And they were worried that you might be able to get that or hepatitis C. These were things that had been transmitted through transfusion products previously. But I still felt that, what, five years?   Michelle (13:25) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (13:49) I have nothing to lose. So I'm so glad that I did do that. know that everyone has to weigh up the risk -benefit analysis of any new treatment and their own situation. But for me, that was a decision that I made, and I'm so glad I did, because I spent 20, my insurance company spent $24 ,000 US on two transfusions, eight hours in total. And I have   Michelle (13:52) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (14:19) Going into remission meant that I have foregone over a million US dollars worth of immune suppressing drugs or chemo drugs because often we autoimmune patients get moved on to methotrexate, which is a chemo drug. I've not had to do any of those over these 20 years. And of course, I also don't live in pain and I don't.   Michelle (14:29) Mm Right.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (14:45) live in fear of because I'm suppressing my immune system, I have to avoid social situations where people might have a cold and give it to me and compromise my immune system. So it was a fantastic outcome for me. It's not one I think a lot of people hear about, but I think they should.   Michelle (15:06) for sure. I mean, it's good to hear everything. And I agree with you that everybody has to really assess their own personal situation. I think, I believe in the innate intuition that's kind of like our body's intelligence speaking to us, just like it does when we have an allergy or we feel some things off when we eat something. So I think that that is a really important component to that. And it's the thing that spoke to you when you were at your doctor's office, because it,   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (15:20) Yeah, agreed.   Yeah.   Michelle (15:36) You could have just said, okay, I'm going to completely bypass any questions that I have and fully just accept everything that I'm given. But something inside of you said, wait, hold up. Let me just do this again. Let me look at this. me think about this. So I really believe in that. think that is so important and important for people to hear because so often we do that. We bypass our own internal judgment and knowing.   You said something important is partnering up with your provider so that it's not an all or nothing. Of course you're going to utilize and you did, you got benefit from getting those tests because that woke you up to doing so many new and amazing things in your own life and implementing a better diet and so on. As far as Omega -3 goes, this is just something that I've been hearing of late.   that some of the supplements go rancid and that it makes it worse. it, have you heard about that?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (16:36) Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah, and apparently what you need to do is take this supplement and put it into the freezer. And if it gets cloudy, that is what I've heard is that then that's not good. It's supposed to remain clear throughout. I'm not an omega -3 fatty acid expert. I have lived for a number of years, very nearby one here in Oxford, Professor John Stein.   Michelle (16:45) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (17:05) who's done a lot of the research on mental health issues and omega -3s and how important they are for brain health. But yeah, I think, you know, get it from your diet first and foremost. Fatty fish is a great source, right? Yeah. Salmon, if we, you haven't already eaten all of it. Yeah.   Michelle (17:18) Right. Good fish. Yeah.   Wild caught, yeah. Yeah, I know. It's so crazy. Well, also just the mercury in some of the salmon, you know, the chemicals, but wild caught, I always say just.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (17:33) Yeah, wild caught. Yeah. And also anchovies, mackerel, sardines, right? The small fish are a really good source of omega -3 fatty acids. And those tend not to have the mercury. Obviously, if we're trying to get pregnant, mercury, definitely not your friend. So yeah.   Michelle (17:38) Sardines, yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah, for sure. I always say, you know, if you're not going to have it when you're pregnant and if you don't have it when you're trying to get pregnant because tuna, for example, they always caution not to have that because of the high mercury, but you don't want that in your system if you're trying to conceive. So for I was very intrigued by your story and I was also intrigued by what you do because when you think about egg quality, sperm quality and really reproduction,   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (18:02) Yum. Yum.   Hmm.   Michelle (18:18) you think anti -aging, that's like ultimately anti -aging in a nutshell. Like that's really what I do for people that I work with. And it benefits me because I'm like, okay, you know, I'm just going to apply a lot of these things as I learn. it definitely, but that's what it is. It's anti -aging. Like I'm big on meditation, which has also been shown take our clocks back, but food and diet and certain supplements,   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (18:20) Mm -hmm. 100%. Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah.   Michelle (18:46) can actually shift and slow down your aging or sometimes even like reverse your biological clock. And I know you're the expert in this specific topic. So I'd love for you to talk about that and what has been discovered and seen in this subject.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (18:57) Sure.   So when we are at our peak health is when we are reproductively capable. And we visually know this when we go out and we see a woman with glossy long hair, with long eyelashes, with healthy radiant skin, of healthy body weight, we know that that is someone who is   who is really attractive and why are they attractive? Because they are at their reproductive height. And interestingly, all of the things I have described are also linked with your spermidine levels. And so that's quite interesting. But also, your hormones are in perfect balance when you can reproduce and that includes not just the usual female sex hormones,   Michelle (19:36) Mm   Mmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (20:01) but also your thyroid hormones. So I'm also a Hashimoto's survivor as well. And so I'm a hypothyroid patient and that is also really important. So it's got to be in perfect balance then. And one of the things that happens with some of these anti -aging molecules is that they extend fertility.   Michelle (20:07) Mm   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (20:28) partly by reversing your age, but they will start the reproductive cycle back up for some people. And it kind of depends how far away from menopause you are. But we've certainly had clients who've said, what happened? I've been in menopause for two years and I've gotten my cycle back. And...   On the one hand, want to say, congratulations, that's great. But they're thinking, this means I can't wear white trousers now, right? And I thought I was done with the pads and the tampons. So I know it's a little bit of a double -edged sword. We women are often thinking about, how do we get rid of our cycles? But in fact, they are nature's way of saying that we are in peak health and are capable of bringing another life into this world.   Michelle (20:55) Hahaha   Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (21:22) You know, we do have to bear that in mind. Of course, the same is true for men. And we know there's a problem with testosterone declining in young men, whether it's due to endocrine disruptors in our food and our water supply, toxins in the air. There is a challenge to men as well. And we do want to see them at their reproductive best in order to be at optimum health, too.   And that is also something that these geroprotectors, these senolytic drugs, these anti -aging molecules can do. They seem to restore fertility in men as well as women.   Michelle (22:03) Amazing. And so let's break it down for people who have never heard of these molecules and these supplements and spermidine. So take a step by step, like, so that people listening can understand what it is.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (22:07) Yeah.   Sure. OK. Well, first, me just say that there are scientists believe that there are 12 reasons why we get older. And these are known as the hallmarks of aging. And they include things that you and your listeners will have heard of before, things like inflammation, leaky gut, stem cell exhaustion or dysfunction, mitochondrial dysfunction.   So, you know, where you have no energy. Telomere shortening. So telomeres are at our in caps and they limit the number of times that we can replicate ourselves. So all of these reasons why we get older, scientists have looked at different molecules that can inhibit those, you know, us going down those pathways. And they have a list of these molecules that   inhibit certain numbers of molecules. And the two that do the most are one called rapamycin, which is a bacteria, and the other one is spermidine, which we manufacture ourselves, like I said, in our gut, in our tissues, and also we get from food. But importantly, it is found in both breast milk and in sperm, and it's so necessary for the survival   the start and survival of the next generation, that it's also in the endosperm of all plants. So these two molecules, rapamycin and spermidine are kind of the darlings of the anti -aging set. And one of spermidine's superhero powers is that it activates cell renewal and recycling.   So if we think about staying in perfect health, one of the first things we want to do is make sure that we can do is every day oven cleaning, right? And the cells do have that function. Maintenance, exactly, exactly. Now, when we're young, it happens naturally and we don't think anything of it, but as we begin to age, that process falters and the cells, the dysfunctional cells,   Michelle (24:16) Mm -hmm. It's a maintenance.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (24:32) which we call senescent cells, they begin to stack up. And the more of these senescent or zombie cells that we have, the less well the other cells function. And I sometimes say that these zombie cells are a bit like your uncle Ted who has too much to drink at a wedding, and he begins to say inappropriate things.   Michelle (24:45) Mm   you   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (24:56) and do really silly stunts and you just think, okay, we got to get Ted over with pot of coffee in the corner away from everybody else or he's going to ruin the party for everyone else. This is what senescent cells do to you. You have one senescent cell and it begins to leak inflammatory contents to the other cells nearby and zombie -izes them and does the same to the other cells. It's a cascade effect.   Michelle (25:09) Mm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (25:25) That is what spermidine can actually, one of the things it can help with in particular with immune cells, it can prevent those immune cells, well rather it can rejuvenate senescent immune cells and that is the work that was done at the University of Oxford.   Michelle (25:43) That's amazing. you moved there to work with them in the research?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (25:48) Well, I came here anyway. I came here because my ex, now sadly my ex, but we have two wonderful children together. He was from Oxford and moved here to be closer to his family and still close to them and absolutely fell in love with the town and just the vibe. University towns are definitely my kind of place.   Michelle (26:09) Hmm. That's nice.   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (26:18) Just the scientific rigor here in the life sciences, it's phenomenal. It's really impressive.   Michelle (26:29) That's amazing. so the two things you're saying are spermidine and rapamycin. and so spermidine is something that you could take from supplements, but not so much rapamycin.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (26:39) You can't, no, not rapamycin, no. It's not something you're going to find in food. So it was basically isolated on Rapa Nui, which is one of the Eastern islands. And one of the pharmaceutical company, a researcher basically took it back home to the United States and it was later researched and found to do.   some really amazing things, one of which is that it can suppress the immune system. And this is important for people who have organ transplants because the tissue match is not perfect and their bodies necessarily want to reject any foreign material in their bodies. So if you give these patients immune suppressants to stop the rejection of the organ, they can live quite nicely with   Michelle (27:16) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (27:33) with that organ and continue in reasonable health, understanding that their immune system has been suppressed. Spermidine, though, of course, it's in our diet. It's something that our gut biome, if it's not been compromised by too much exposure to broad spectrum antibiotics, it can make. And in all of the longevity hotspots of the world, these populations of healthy centenarians, their spermidine levels are   high, they're similar to those of people who are in their 50s. And it's correlated with healthy lifespan. So I always recommend that people try to get more plants in their diet because you will get spermidine in your plants. If you can have fermented foods,   Michelle (28:12) Mm   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (28:29) If you don't have a problem with histamine load, and some people do for allergy, you know, if they've got allergies, but if you don't have a problem with histamine, then, you know, kimchi, sauerkraut, even things that are long matured like cheese. And a lot of people can say, I'm not allowed cheese because it'll make me gain weight. Well, yes, but there is also some spermatine there. The longer the maturity of the, of the cheese, the more it's been aged, the higher the spermatine content.   Michelle (28:45) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (28:58) Usually these are harder cheeses like a Parmesan or a cheddar. These would be good sources. And then for individuals who need extra, then a supplement makes sense. But I always say, get it first from your food. Please do not rely on a supplement, right? That's not doing, it's a disservice to think that you can just have a bunch of little pills on your plate.   Well, at first you're not going to get any satisfaction from it. But the other thing is that we need the fiber in those plants because that fiber, although our bodies don't, don't digest it, the gut biome needs that. And so you, you want to also feed the colonies in your gut biome that can make more spermidine for you. You know, we have these little pharmaceutical factories that make   Michelle (29:46) Mm   Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (29:54) everything from B vitamins and serotonin, one of the happiness hormones, and spermidine. So why waste it? actually in our supplement, the wheat germ derived one, we have a fructo -oleigosaccharide in there, an FOS, can selectively feed the bacteria that make spermidine. And the reason I want it there is because that's also what's in breast milk. In breast milk, you have   these fructo -aligosaccharides, you have spermidine, sperminine, another polyamine that actually helps turn good genes on, bad genes off, and then a precursor polyamine called putrescine. So you want some fiber, basically, that's the takeaway. Please, you want the fiber, yeah, exactly, because it's always better to, what do they say? Teach a man to fish, feed him for life, right?   Michelle (30:38) With the spermidine. Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (30:49) rather than just give him the fish. And that's kind of what we want to do. We want to train your body to make more of it, especially as you get older, because you'll have to eat increasing amounts of plant material to make up the shortfall of your tissue production of spermidine going offline.   Michelle (30:57) Right.   It's fascinating. So wheat germ is not necessarily gluten -free. For people who are gluten -free, what do they do?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (31:16) Well, OK, so yes, obviously, this is a problem in particular for autoimmune patients. And I went on the autoimmune paleo diet myself. I got rid of all gluten. I was off all lectins. Gluten is most famous lectin. So I had so many autoimmune patients getting in touch with me who'd heard my story that I actually looked for a plant source high in spermidine that was not a lectin. And I found it in an unusual strain of chlorella.   Michelle (31:28) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (31:45) So I went to Okinawa and had to test 120 different strains, substrains of chlorella to find the single one that had very high expression of spermidine. And we commissioned that to be grown in open -air freshwater ponds that are on land in Okinawa, but next to the ocean, but not in the ocean.   Michelle (31:46) Mm   wow.   It's wild.   huh.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (32:11) And that's what we use in our gluten -free product, which also has Okinawan autumn turmeric and has Okinawan lime peel. So lime peel has another autophagy activator. That's that cell renewal process. This autophagy or cell renewal activator is called nobilitan. And it's also in bergamot, in bergamot, the citrus fruit.   Michelle (32:16) Mm -hmm.   Mm   Mm -hmm. Right.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (32:38) And that actually, interestingly enough, is an Earl Grey tea. So if you're going to drink a tea, maybe some Earl Grey, you'll get some nobilitan in that. But that formulation was especially made for celiacs and for other autoimmune patients who really wanted the benefits of autophagy but couldn't use the defatted wheat germ version that we had brought to market first.   Michelle (32:42) wow. Interesting.   Mm   Mm   Amazing. Let me ask you a question. Have you looked into enzymes, pro proteleic? No, enzymes that are actually systemic enzymes that you have on an empty stomach. like things like wobe enzyme and yeah. And I think that there's another one, it's Nuzheim or there's another pretty well -known company. And I think it's from Europe.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (33:11) You mean like digestive enzymes or?   I've taken wovenzyme.   So yeah, wabenzim is German. I took that, gosh, maybe it's been around for decades and it does work. I took that from my, interesting. I took it, I didn't know that. I took it for joint pain. And so this was something that I was taking as a way to try and treat myself for the rheumatoid arthritis. So it didn't, it wasn't enough for that. I think it can help.   Michelle (33:40) It was beneficial for thyroid. Yeah, yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (33:59) more mild things, but definitely these are of benefit. And having a coach like you, who, you know, a trained practitioner who knows about all of the menu items that could be selected, you have the different tools, right? It's overwhelming as a patient. I mean, even just having my doctor say, just inject this one drug, that was like, whoa, can I get my head around the idea of injecting myself, right?   Michelle (34:13) Yeah, like different tools.   yeah.   Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (34:29) So you do need a guide and I think it's great that you've got that knowledge that you can share with your clients.   Michelle (34:37) Thank you. also, so for people who are interested, is it mostly the spermidine that you're focused on?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (34:45) Yes, so basically we are a small all -women company and you know, women -led companies, we get around 2 % of all venture capital funding. We don't have venture capital funding like our competitors. We very much are growing organically and are looking at really focusing on something that we know very well and making the most excellent   Michelle (34:49) Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (35:13) product on the planet. And for me, with my group of advisors, this has been the right thing to do because we've had so many raw material manufacturers and suppliers come to us telling us, try this spermidine. And when we tested in the lab, we see that it's basically a tiny amount of wheat germ, and it's been cut like a street drug with synthetic spermidine.   Michelle (35:15) Awesome.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (35:42) And the problem with synthetic spermidine is, firstly, OK, I am biased against the synthetic because I watch my mother take the synthetic HRT. I'm so glad I'm on bioidentical HRT. But the synthetic has never been tested for safety or efficacy in humans. So I'm reluctant to bring a product to market that has not been tested. And when it comes to fertility,   Michelle (35:43) wow.   Mm   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (36:11) We know that in mouse studies where they have used synthetic spermidine, small amounts seem to help. But then when you give just a little bit more, it actually impairs fertility. so with these...   Michelle (36:22) wow. That's important. That's really important, you guys, to listen to that because that's huge.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (36:28) Yeah, that's huge. So the problem is finding the Goldilocks zone. Each of us is bio individual. We have different ethnic difference, genetic differences, age, body shape, height, and metabolism. All of these things mean you want the right amount for you, but we don't know what that right amount is when it comes to synthetic spermidine. With plants, however, it's not a problem.   because the body recognizes this, we have co -evolved with plant -derived spermidine for millennia. So when there's too much, the body says, right, we're going to turn this into spermine, which is going to help with turning good genes on, bad genes off with the DNA methylation. But this doesn't happen with the synthetic. I think that on the fertility front, as a woman, I would never make that.   Michelle (36:55) Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (37:21) I would never go for something that might possibly hurt my fertility.   Michelle (37:25) absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's a complete waste of time because you're trying to do all these other things and then you're going to take something that's not, that's a risk. and then I was curious, it says you were talking about it you were saying that sometimes they'll find it in certain mushrooms, cordyceps by any chance.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (37:30) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.   Mmm.   it will be in cordyceps. It will be in all mushrooms and the ones that have the highest amount of swirmed in our shiitake, oyster and trumpet, but all mushrooms will have it. And, know, if you, if you don't have a problem with, mushrooms, know, this is fall, it's autumn. This is the right time to, you know, get some mushrooms into your stews and your soups and,   Michelle (37:43) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Awesome.   Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (38:06) It's really, it's so, so good also because it's got vitamin D and we're just coming off of this period where we've soaked up the vitamin D from the sun over the summer, but now we're going into winter and we're gonna get less. So there are so many reasons to get it also a wonderful source of fiber.   Michelle (38:16) Yeah.   Yeah, amazing. So if people are interested and want to learn more and then also want to look at your products, how can they find you?   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (38:32) They can go to Oxford HealthSpan, like the span of a bridge, it's all one word, .com. And if they're interested in learning more about healthy aging, we do bring breakthrough scientists who talk about things, not just about cell renewal or autophagy, but talk about other things as well. We also have them talk about, say, NAD, things like this. That's at the OxfordLongevityProject .org.   Michelle (38:56) Yeah.   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (39:01) And then I have kind of a side hustle helping my girlfriends with gray hair reversal. And that's on Leslie's new prime. Spermadine helps with that as well. It helps with hair health and eyelash and eyebrow health. That is on Leslie's new prime on YouTube. So L -E -S -L -I -E is how I spell my name.   Michelle (39:08) nice.   Fabulous. Leslie, this was fascinating. I really enjoyed talking to you. And also a key point, you got pregnant naturally at 40. Okay. important thing to mention. And I kept thinking about it as we're talking about, wait, wait, let's go. Let's go talk about that, even though it's kind of the end of the episode.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (39:34) I did at Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a, it's a happy ending. So, so the fifth IVF with the donor eggs didn't work. As a matter of fact, the embryologist said on embryo transfer, said, I don't know why you didn't use your eggs. Your eggs are better than this younger donor. I was like,   You're kidding me because I can't tell you how much I just sacrificed to pay for that. And, but, know, basically fast forward, I adopted a little girl from China. So I became a mom. become parents, you know, mother is a verb. It's not a noun. So that was, that was great. And as I was taking care of her, I still felt very, very tired and I couldn't understand what was going on, why I saw these other moms.   Michelle (40:02) wow.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (40:27) running around with scout troops, planting gardens, walking dogs, five children. You know, why? How do they do it? They're the same age and they have so much more energy. And I just, I did go to Dr. Google. I put in every symptom I had and it came up hypothyroid. So then,   The GP here in the UK said, no, you're in the normal range. No problem. I went to a private GP. No, you're normal. I went to a private endocrinologist. No, you're normal. And I just thought, I know I'm not. These doctors keep telling me I'm normal. I know. We patients always, if you do feel like that, follow your intuition, find a doctor who believes you, and we'll run the test. We'll work with you to uncover the mystery. It's like a murder mystery, right? So.   Michelle (41:09) Yes.   Yes.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (41:14) So I went on patient forums. Patient forums have been great help. Went there and people said, there is one doctor who will help you and he won't just look at your blood test. A lot of doctors look at thyroid problems and they only look at your blood test, your TSH, your T3, your T4. I went to him and he looked at clinical symptoms and he also ran a cortisol test. And he said that my...   Michelle (41:33) Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (41:43) Cortisol was the lowest he had ever seen. It was so bad, he didn't know how I was standing in front of him. And I had classic cold hands, cold feet. Yes, my hair was thinning. I was exhausted. I was breathless as I went upstairs. I was losing the outer third of my eyebrows. These are all clinical symptoms of hypothyroidism. He then said,   Michelle (41:50) Wow.   Mm   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (42:09) What you need to do is address your adrenals first because of the cortisol problem, and then two weeks after that, take some thyroid. And because I actually do not convert levothyroxine, which is a standard thyroid hormone that most people get, like 60 % of all Americans will get that, but I can't convert it into the bioavailable.   Michelle (42:22) Mm   Right. Yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (42:33) thyroid hormone known as T3. And your cell receptors only have receptors for T3, not for levothyroxine. So if you've been taking loads and loads of levothyroxine, you still feel wiped out. You probably are just like me and have a genetic, you're genetically challenged and you can take a test with Genova diagnostics. I think it's called the DIO2 genetic test, D -I -O -2. And   Michelle (42:35) Mm   Mm   Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (43:01) here in the UK cost about 75 pounds and you then can get T3 prescribed either synthetically or you can do what I do and Hillary Clinton also does. take something, we take a desiccated pig's thyroid. In America there's Armour, There's Armour, there's Urfa, there are a few brands and that within, you know, two to three weeks basically on that   Michelle (43:16) Is that armor? Yes, yeah.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (43:29) Pregnant right away. No idea. Had not even, didn't check if I was ovulating. You remember the days when you're like, you've got a thermometer under your tongue and you're checking, am I ovulating? Could it be now? And all the calendar work that you've got to do when you're trying to get pregnant, none of that. It just happened. And I was so shocked. yeah. So my daughter, Marguerite, was born, you know,   Michelle (43:38) Yeah.   That is so crazy.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (43:57) Eight months later, was just one day shy of being premature, so I got her over the premature line. And 10 out of 10 on the Apgar score delivered at age 43.   Michelle (44:08) Amazing. mean, that is just incredible. I'm sure, I mean, I'm so excited about this episode because I just feel like it's mind blowing, first of all, just all the different stories. And it also covers things that I feel are really important. advocating for yourself as a patient. I mean, that is huge. And I think a lot of us have been in those kinds of situations. You said something that I was like, wow.   That's a quote, find a doctor who believes you. You know, because also getting different opinions is super important and it's a game changer. It'll totally change your whole journey.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (44:37) Yeah, yeah, yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah. Well, look what this doctor did for me. So what none of the doctors had realized with those other two autoimmune conditions was that I had my autoimmune, the system, the immune system had not only attacked my joints and my organs, but it had attacked my thyroid. And the way that he could see it was, you know, he could see with.   Michelle (45:07) Mm -hmm.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (45:11) that I had all the clinical symptoms, but with an ultrasound, he could see that I had only one eighth of a thyroid left. I had so little viable thyroid left. There was just nothing of the organ left. yet, because he didn't want to fall in line here in Britain, he was actually hounded by the British Medical Council.   Michelle (45:23) Wow, that is so crazy.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (45:35) Mary Schumann, the thyroid advocate in the United States, who's written a number of thyroid patient handbooks, actually got a campaign together to try to gather signatures. And he had tens of thousands of signatures from grateful patients. But the medical council actually wasn't listening. They wanted their protocol to be followed. And it had to be a blood protocol.   Michelle (45:55) It's so crazy to me.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (46:02) And this is the problem is the blood does not show everything. But of course, we patients get these data points 24 -7.We know if our hair is falling out, if we can't shift the weight, if we can't walk upstairs without getting winded, if we've got cold hands and cold feet, our partners know because they tell us, God, you're freezing. What's going on? So we need.   Michelle (46:06) you   Yeah.   Mm   Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (46:30) Our partners know it. If, if you happen to be sleeping with a doctor, maybe he can be a prescribed for you and he'll believe it because of the cold feet. but otherwise, you know, you have to rely on your powers of persuasion to find a doctor who's willing to go the extra mile with you and get curious. I only ask that I just find a doctor who's willing to get curious with you.   Michelle (46:35) Right? Yeah.   Yeah, I love that. I love that. Well, I mean, I could talk to you for longer than we have. But let's say this is amazing information, like really, really, truly amazing. And I love your story. And I love the way you truly believed in yourself. And that's something that I want to tell everybody who's listening, just believe in yourself because you know, and you know what? The body is so forgiving, way more forgiving than we give it credit for. It's just a matter of   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (47:21) 100%.   Michelle (47:22) figuring out like what is it exactly that it needs, like just figuring it out, its own way of communication. So thank you so much, Leslie, for coming on today.   Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (47:28) Yeah.   absolutely. Thank you for having me on. really appreciate it. It was lovely chatting with you, really fun. And keep going with your amazing work. Women need guides they can trust like you, who are willing to take the extra time to get curious and share the knowledge that you've gained over the years and the hard work you put in to get pregnant yourself, right?   Michelle (47:57) Thank you so much.    

In this episode of *The Wholesome Fertility Podcast*, I dive into the journey of trying to conceive in your 40s, focusing on how to balance realism with optimism. I debunk common myths around age and fertility, offering a comprehensive look at how aging affects reproductive health from both Western and Traditional Chinese Medicine perspectives. I’ll share practical strategies to enhance fertility naturally, including dietary adjustments, lifestyle changes, key supplements, and the power of the mind-body connection. We’ll also discuss how to navigate medical interventions like IVF, with a focus on protocols that prioritize egg quality over quantity. Whether you're just starting your fertility journey or looking to improve your chances of conceiving later in life, this episode is packed with insights, encouragement, and actionable advice to help you take control of your reproductive health.   Learn more about my new book “The Way of Fertility” here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:     [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I am your host, Michelle Oravitz. And today, I am going to talk about a topic that I think is so, so important. And I'm sure so many people out there are listening to this and wanting to know more. So today I'm going to talk about all things getting pregnant in your 40s.   So, typically, what drives me absolutely crazy is hearing that you're considered a geriatric pregnancy once you're pregnant after age 35. So, I think that's absolutely ridiculous. And working in this field, I work with so many people either approaching 40s or after 40s and I just recently had a patient at 46 who is pregnant and thriving. So, there are so many stories out there that will definitely contradict. all of the fear and all of the questioning and the[00:01:00] doubts in women getting pregnant in their 40s. So I feel really passionate about this. If you are in your 40s and you're trying to conceive, I highly recommend you listen to this episode.   So I'm going to be realistic and optimistic at the same time when it comes to getting pregnant after 40. So the realistic aspect of is, the more time you're like living and elements of the earth, you are going to have natural wear and tear. You're going to also have a natural decline in certain factors of your body.   And That could be, I guess, the realistic news. However, the optimistic news is that we can actually do a lot to improve whatever it is to slow down the aging process. And we can do a lot also to improve the quality of our cells and, , Our cellular regeneration and also the energy overall chi [00:02:00] overall blood and really support our body and our body is forgiving.   It has been designed to be very forgiving. It's also been designed to reproduce. So if you give it the resources. Yeah. Then it will start to heal itself, , it will replenish itself, and it'll produce better outcome when it comes to reproductive health. So as far as the realistic part, let's talk about really what happens as women age. And when it comes down to really being in your forties. Now I will kind of bust a myth here because a lot of times they say women are the only ones that have biological clocks and men don't. And that is a myth. It's absolutely not true.   And as a matter of fact, nowadays, unfortunately, there's a lot going on that's also impacting sperm health, even for men in their reproductive age. So it does definitely impact, and get lower with age for men as well. So typically the things that will decline with age, [00:03:00] from a TCM perspective, traditional Chinese medicine perspective, women will definitely overall, their kidney chi, the kidneys in Chinese medicine are really, in charge of reproduction and they have very important roles from the moment the woman goes into puberty until afterwards towards the end they start to decline. So the reproductive health of the kidneys, there are two aspects of it. I've talked about this before you get pre heaven chi and post heaven chi. And so you can get The pre heaven chi is basically like genetics. It's what you're born with. It's essence that you're given really at birth. And you could look at like all the eggs that a baby has. If it's a female, it already is born with the eggs. And so all of that is there once a woman becomes more ripe, which is towards reproductive age When that aspect of her body starts to activate, some people are [00:04:00] born with a much better inheritance of qi and others have a little less. However, we also have what's called post heaven qi and post heaven qi is something that a lot of times the spleen and stomach are really in charge of and the spleen and stomach are in charge of digestion. So the things we eat, how we choose to live.   The amount of stress we have in our life, because stress can really deplete a lot of the qi, the energy. , qi, by the way, is life force vitality. So, all of those things come in and play a factor on how a person's overall health and overall reproductive health is impacted.   The good news, again, is that you can actually reverse your biological age. And this can depend on many different factors. And I'll talk about that as we continue. But some of the things to keep in mind is that, yes, as people age, [00:05:00] their overall ATP in the cells, which is really energy units in the cells, in the mitochondria, they lower with time. So that actually decreases. And when ATP decreases in cells, it actually decreases also the quality of the cells. And since egg cells are the largest cell in a woman's body, it's really important that they are robust with healthy mitochondria so that they can create a lot more ATP energy units because it takes a lot of energy to conceive. It takes a lot of energy for the egg to fertilize with the sperm to create a healthy embryo because it's a lot of force. And if you look at any seeds, really any seeds anywhere, and this is why eating seeds is actually so beneficial because seeds have a lot of what we call Jing. [00:06:00] Jing is essence. And so that essence is basically very similar to conception.   Because seeds have everything they need, all the nutrients kind of sitting there and their potential is there for growth. So they're primed and ready with the right environment to grow and sprout. So that is why one of the things we often suggest is to is to eat lots of seeds and people use seed cycling and I say either seed cycling or just eating seeds, either way you are going to get that essence and that jing through food. So your digestive health is really important as far as taking that quality and translating them into your eggs and translating them into your cells, essentially. And also over time as the egg quality declines, that impacts how much the follicles will grow, and it can impact the follicular [00:07:00] phase of the menstrual cycle, which is the first phase of the menstrual cycle from the time a woman gets her period. up until the time she ovulates and little by little that time can decrease and that can also be a reflection of how the follicles are growing and if they're maturing enough and it typically can decline with age.   Another thing that can decline is also the progesterone. So from either not ovulating or also from just the quality of the eggs because the outside of the follicle is the corpus luteum. So when the egg comes out of the follicle, what's left over is the corpus luteum, which is where the progesterone comes from earlier on.   And if a woman gets pregnant, that progesterone will last for a few months until the placenta starts to provide the progesterone. If a woman is low in progesterone, she may need to get excess. [00:08:00]progesterone extra from her doctor, or sometimes people try to do it bioidentical. So there are definitely many things that a woman can try and many interventions that she can try in order to help her conceive if she's at a later maternal age.   However, I've seen people conceive naturally at a later maternal age after 40 by implementing many lifestyle changes, including which really is at the heart of everything is supplements and diet, but died even more than supplements. And so if you have, say food sensitivities or you're, experiencing digestive discomfort or digestive issues that's going to impact the supplement absorption.   So it doesn't really matter if you don't take care of your gut health. It doesn't even matter what kind of supplements you have. And yes, maybe it's going to make a little bit of a dent, but it's not going to be as effective as if you get your digestive [00:09:00] system in order.   So what are things that can impact egg quality? So My suggestions here are multifold. I mean, there's so many different things that I can suggest, but I'm going to suggest the big ones that I think are the most crucial. And omega 3 fatty acids and antioxidants are really, really, really crucial. When it comes to egg quality, getting those healthy fats and healthy fats, like really, really good healthy fats, omega 3 fatty acids less omega 6, which are pro inflammatory, you want anti inflammatory, you want antioxidants, and really, an anti inflammatory diet would be the best bet when it comes to egg quality. So you want a lower inflammation because higher inflammation can decrease egg quality. You want to remove things like sugar, processed foods. All of those things can impact [00:10:00] inflammation, but it also can impact your gut and you want a good healthy microbiome so that you're able to really translate what's in the food, even if you're eating right into the nourished energy and the chi and the life force and the blood that will support egg quality.   You also want a healthy exercise routine. So you want like a good opportunity for your body to get oxygen because oxygen plays a really important role when it comes to increasing the ATP and the energy units in the body and exercise as well. So if you over exercise, so here's the key over exercising, you're going to deplete your energy under exercising, you're going to deplete your energy being in a healthy BMI, a healthy weight. is the most ideal.   So the ideal BMI for getting pregnant is between 18. 5 and 24. 9. It's known as the healthy range. Anything lower or anything higher can contribute to a more [00:11:00] deficient state, believe it or not, even having excess and having a higher weight can be deficient because your body's carrying the weight and it's not using the energy properly. Sunlight also impacts melatonin in your cells. So believe it or not, even though melatonin is something that many people take and it's used at night or it's Considered something that impacts sleep. It also impacts the cells and works as an antioxidant and One of the ways to do it is by taking supplements But I would definitely suggest getting sunlight early in the morning, because if you get sunlight early in the morning, your cells will start to make cellular melatonin, and that can impact your egg quality as well. Another thing that we know can really act as an anti ager is meditation. By meditating, you can actually slow down and reverse your biological age. There many studies that show. that there's so [00:12:00]many physiological improvements that can happen from meditation, but not just meditating things like yoga as well. Things that really calm the nervous system, like even chanting has been shown to have many beneficial aspects, but it also.   Can increase nitric oxide chanting does. So there are a lot of things that you can do that are free and really are so minimal. Like it doesn't even take that much time out of your day that can improve and reverse your biological age. Meditation has been shown to help people live longer, it increases well being, and it also works on your emotions. And believe it or not, emotions are actually pretty high maintenance, especially difficult emotions. If you think about it, it really uses up a lot of energy, so it's not a energy efficient aspect of us. Now, it does happen from time to time and it's normal to have those emotions, no doubt, but[00:13:00] if you have it chronically, it can really, really deplete the energy of the body.   Think about times where you've had a very heightened sense of emotion or a difficult day and you've really, really, it got the best of you. Think about how depleting it was and how depleted you felt. Sometimes people need to sleep just to kind of overcome all of the emotions and all of the drain that it's given them so emotions can be really, really taxing, but then on the other hand, elevated emotions can actually provide more energy. So things like laughter are really healthy. I oftentimes tell people to do that, especially before transfers, because if you are getting a transfer, it's been shown to help the transfer stick.   So laughter therapy, if it helps with transfers. It really helps with everything else. It was just one study on that, but laughter is healthy in general. So watching [00:14:00] things like comedies will take the edge off of the fertility journey, just to have a little break mentally because we know that it can be really, really taxing and difficult as it is. So I always say, if you're going to have those things happen or things that are challenging that you're dealing with, you obviously can't take that away because it's just part of life and it's part of the process. But what you can do is counteract it with other tools and other things that you can least bounce out or alleviate or take the load off. And I highly suggest laughter therapy. That's huge. But also exercise and yoga, things that really calm the nervous system, because it helps you sleep. And sleep is another really, really important factor that can also help with age related fertility conditions. So getting sleep is incredibly nurturing.   It also helps your body organize and balance hormones. It's so important to get your [00:15:00] overall chi increased, which think ATP, think about your mitochondria, your cells, rejuvenation. Sleep is incredibly important. The key with sleep is not to have too much sleep and not to have too little. So about eight to nine hours or seven to nine hours, ideally eight would be great.   Supplements you might want to consider are a good prenatal supplement, omega 3s, vitamin C and E, because they're high in antioxidants, but sometimes the prenatals have a good amount. Glutathione is really important, NAC and please don't take this as medical advice. Definitely speak to somebody about, you know, Taking this because it's not for everybody, not all supplements are for everybody.   It really is dependent on your unique circumstance and you can also get your DHEA. tested to see if it's low because many women after 40 can [00:16:00] benefit from taking DHEA depending on their condition. For some people, it can have an adverse effect if it's too high. So it's important to really look at it because it is a hormone. If you are considering IVF, My suggestion is to inquire about a lower dosage protocol because from what I've learned from speaking to other practitioners and also speaking to my patients and seeing people doing a lot better, women who have a lower reserve may do better with lower medication protocols because it works more on the quality than the quantity. Because if you try to work on the quantity, then the quantity is already low. So it's better for fewer eggs to take in the medication and grow. And from what I've seen. People have done better with that. if they have [00:17:00] lower reserve. But again, this is a question for your doctor.   You want to make sure that they're on board. You may want to get multiple opinions and see what everybody thinks, because you'll find different opinions on everything when it comes to fertility and when it comes to doctors.   And lastly, you want to also track your cycle. And I wouldn't just do it with LH sticks because LH sticks are just going to show your brain wants to get your body to ovulate, but it doesn't really confirm ovulation. I highly recommend trying BBT charting for at least two months. I have a couple of episodes on that. If you want to look into different methods that you can choose to track your fertile window, you could check out episode number 299. I cover many different ways to track it, how to track it and ways that are a little more convenient than just doing the BBT, which I do highly still recommend to at least to do it for two [00:18:00] months.   The important thing is really to understand it and to understand your fertile window and really understand what is happening and when you are most fertile. It could help you also in understanding whether you need to address the follicular phase or the luteal phase or what's happening because if your luteal phase is short or the temperature is too low, that could be possibly significant in showing that you have low progesterone and something that you might want to mention to your doctor or your natural health practitioner.   So those are all things that you want to know. If you do have any questions, I am very active on Instagram. You can DM me and my handle is at the wholesome Lotus fertility. Thank you so much for tuning in today and I hope that you found this information helpful. If you have any other ideas or topics, again, feel free to DM me on Instagram and thank you so much for tuning in.   I hope you have a [00:19:00] beautiful day. 

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Desi Barlett!   Desi shares her background and how she got into supporting women through life's transitions. She explains kinesiology and its connection to yoga and the body's movements. Desi discusses the importance of releasing emotions stored in the body and the three common areas where tension is held: hips, shoulders, and jaw. She also highlights the significance of starting the day with intention and meditation.   Episode Takeaways Kinesiology is the study of the human body and its movements, and it can be used to support women through various life transitions. Emotions are often stored in the body, particularly in the hips, shoulders, and jaw. Releasing tension in these areas can lead to emotional and physical well-being. Meditation and breathwork are powerful tools for maintaining and cleansing the mind and body. They can help release emotional weight and provide clarity and focus. Starting the day with intention and proactive decision-making can set the tone for a successful and fulfilling day. Starting the day with a morning ritual and setting intentions can lead to success in all areas of life. Traumatic events can lead to finding one's calling and purpose in life. Connecting with the heart and the uterus is important for fertility and conception. Listening and being heard are essential for healing and creating a supportive environment. Desi offers resources and support for women on their fertility journey.   Guest Bio:    Desi Bartlett MS, CPT E-RYT, is passionate about sharing the joy of movement. With over 25 years of experience in health and wellness, she holds a bachelor’s degree in kinesiology, a master’s degree in corporate fitness, and is currently pursuing a doctoral degree in exercise science. Originally from Chicago, Desi is also a proud mother of two and an internationally published author. Desi is currently launching an innovative subscription platform, Desibodymind.com, offering a holistic approach to health and wellness through meditation, yoga, and fitness. At the heart of her philosophy is the belief in the interconnectedness of mind and body. As a women’s health expert with advanced certifications in yoga, personal training, prenatal and postnatal fitness, and group fitness, Desi has garnered a roster of private clients that includes household names like Ashley Tisdale, Adam Levine, Kate Hudson, and many more. Her expertise has been showcased on major networks such as ABC, NBC, FOX, Univision, Hallmark, and Lifetime. Desi's influence extends beyond her client base through multiple online classes including DailyOM, Beachbody, and iFit. She is also the author of Your Strong, Sexy Pregnancy: a Yoga and Fitness Guide, a comprehensive guide  and co-author of Total Body Beautiful: Secrets to Looking and Feeling Your Best After Age 35. Now, Desi brings her wealth of knowledge and experience to Desibodymind.com, where individuals can access transformative content designed to strengthen both their physical bodies and mental well-being. Whether you're a seasoned practitioner or new to the world of holistic health, Desi's platform offers something for everyone. Join Desi, who lives on the picturesque island of Oahu, on a journey to cultivate strength from the inside out.   www. desibodymind.com   Instagram is @mothersintolivingfit and @desibodymind     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Desi.   Desi (00:03) Thank you so much. Aloha from Hawaii. This is a beautiful morning over here on the island and I'm so happy to connect with you.   Michelle (00:11) I absolutely love Hawaii, by the way. Been there, it's so magical. I have to say, I really miss it now. We've been there like two years ago and I can't wait to come back.   So I'd love to hear your background. What got you started in this work that you do?   Desi (00:29) So my mother was a hippie and she was a disciple of Goswami Kriyananda at the Temple of Kriya Yoga in Chicago. So I grew up with meditation and yoga since the time I was six years old. When I was in college, I got really deep into fitness and I pursued two degrees. I've got my degree in kinesiology and my master's in corporate fitness. And actually I'm on the brink of getting my PhD right now. I'm also in kinesiology. And so I've just been   Michelle (00:37) Love that.   Awesome.   Desi (00:58) extremely passionate about helping women through all transitions of life for many years. I have two children and I know that pregnancy and fertility especially can be such a journey. So it's my pleasure, my privilege, my honor to really support women through all of life's changes.   Michelle (01:18) Amazing. First of all, I actually took a little and found it to be fascinating. So I'd love to actually start there for people who have never heard of it. would love for you to share it for somebody who's like never heard of it before and   Desi (01:33) kinesiology is all about the study of the human body. And what we look at is biomechanics and you know, like what muscle is specifically working when you're moving your arm, let's say zero to 45 degrees and then 45 to 90 degrees, et cetera. And so what I've learned is not only anatomy and physiology and really understanding the body from the inside out,   Michelle (01:47) you   Desi (01:57) but how the body moves. So when you layer that on with yoga and all of the esoteric teachings, it's so fascinating to me because what I'm seeing now is that what the yogis have been teaching quite literally for millennia is what we're discovering today. So for example, when we talk about something like yoga nidra, which is yogic sleep, when we go into progressive relaxation,   Michelle (02:17) Yes.   Desi (02:26) So for example, some of your listeners might've enjoyed a meditation where you close your eyes, slow your breath down, relax your feet, let that feeling of relaxation move to your ankles, and you go through the entire body. What we know now is that there are specific physiological processes that are happening inside of your body that promote this relaxation and restoration on a cellular level.   So on the one hand, I'm full blown science nerd, and on the other hand, I'm like super duper hippie. And when I can prove one with the other, it lights me up.   Michelle (03:04) I totally get it. Say no more. Because I feel the same way. And you know what's really cool? The more I'm doing this, the more I have guests on the podcast, the more I'm realizing, wow, we're actually at a place that we've wanted to go for so long. And people always thought that science had to be completely different from spirituality, that the two could not connect. But   I'm seeing more and more that they're actually connecting in a beautiful way.   Desi (03:33) Absolutely. And I think that really also speaks to what you do and what you offer women so beautifully as well in terms of acupuncture. And know, when we're starting to understand like in yoga, we call them natties, the energy lines, we're starting to understand that there's a reason that people have been talking about this for so many years and it's because it really works.   Michelle (03:49) Mm   Desi (03:57) So when we're able to bring this knowledge and education to women, especially on a fertility journey, I think it can be such a gift because it's not woo woo, know, there's actual science that's involved. And so if I'm asking you like, hey, let's take this step together and let me support you. I'm doing so from a place of feeling like I can actually help empower you. This isn't just us wishing.   Michelle (03:57) Mm   Love that. That's beautiful. I really love that. So talk to me about kinesiology, like what got you into it and how can you bridge that or like use that in your teachings and your practices?   Desi (04:37) I went to ASU and I was originally a broadcasting major and I had a dance class and I noticed that my knee hurt all of the time. And so I went to the university doctor and he said to me, he's like, no problem, you are not injured. You just need to strengthen your quads. And I said, what's a quad? And so he explained to me and his fate would have it that very evening I met   second place Miss Olympia on campus. And I was telling her what was going on. And she's like, all good, girl. I've got you. I'm going to take you to the gym. She introduced me to the leg extension. And I fell in love with fitness. And my joke is that that evening I walked into the gym and I never left. So what I've learned is that you can strengthen your muscles, your joints, your connective tissue. But while you're in the gym or on a yoga mat, we're also strengthening our minds. In order to push through that next rep or to lift the heavier weight, something is happening in our minds as well. We're making a decision to commit to the next level. And I truly believe that that's all applicable to our daily lives. When we feel stronger and our bodies and our minds, we can take that strength, that power into everything that we do with a sense of confidence. Like if I can lift that 200 pound   whatever, of course I can take this conference call. We're good.   Michelle (06:02) totally. I always say that. I mean, the challenges and sometimes I'll take a course or an exercise class and, and I'm like, my God, I'm dying. like, I love taking the class because I feel so much more motivated when I have a teacher and the teacher's like, I know this is hard, but get through it, go to your breath, you know, and then it gets me to my breath. And I'm like, okay, focus on my breath. And it makes you strong.   internally, like you learn to deal with things that are not easy. So I 100 % agree with what you just said. I totally feel that way myself. not just that, I am so fascinated by connecting with the body. somatic therapy, where it really, you connect with your body in order to process emotions and to process   Desi (06:45) Yes.   Michelle (06:50) your internal state. I mean, there's so much more to that than what I'm explaining because that's not specifically my specialty, but it's really fascinating to me because I've learned more and more as I'm doing this. And even with what I do that we process emotions physically a lot more than we think. We think it's all up here in our minds, but it really so much of it is in our bodies. And actually when we do get into our bodies,   That is how we're able to manage them more easily. And it doesn't feel as overwhelming as when we're thinking about them or just staying in that mindset.   Desi (07:31) Amen. So somatic therapy, remember reading about it the first time probably about, my goodness, 30 years ago, there's a wonderful book by Barbara Brennan. If I remember correctly, I think it's called Hands of Light. And she was a nurse, if I remember correctly, and working with people, and noticed that when she would touch certain parts of their body, it would trigger a memory. It would trigger an emotional response in many cases.   Michelle (07:43) Mm   Desi (07:56) Way back when, when I was like a little baby fitness teacher, I remember working as a personal trainer in Chicago. This is like 1996. And I would, I would touch people to stretch them, you know, like just relax your trapezius or let me help you with your hamstring stretch. And I felt and experienced and saw the same thing. When you're that close to someone's energy body.   you can almost feel or I can feel the memory. And I'm like, whoa, what was that? But I didn't have the tools at that time to say, know, enjoy a very deep breath. Let's let it go. And let's let that experience be sort of like a cloud and just let it move on by. We don't have to attach to it. In yoga, we have a technique called neti, neti, neti. I am not this thought. I am not this body. I am not this experience.   Michelle (08:30) Interesting.   Desi (08:52) You're the one who's all the way behind all that, right? So now I have the tools to help women especially and empower them. So when there's been trauma, we can talk about it when necessary, especially if I'm working with your body. The body is such a sacred space and it's our temple. So if I have the privilege and the honor of helping to guide your body, of course I'm going to approach it with a deep sense of reverence.   Michelle (08:56) Right.   Desi (09:19) And any feeling or emotion that's popping up, we'll say hello to it. We'll see where it comes from, if it needs to be explored more. But let's also start to focus on what is the intention? What do you want to feel today? So if you're waking up with a feeling of like chaos and my gosh, and I'm not sure what the next move is, and I've got this whole to -do list, and I've got this and that, and on and on and on, and the mind is spinning. Well, where do we want to go? Is the intention perhaps?   grounding and then I can help you start to ground and breathe and feel your lower body and so when things come up we can absolutely talk about that and move through it but let's also be really really focused on where we're going so we're not getting lost in a constant loop of what was.   Michelle (10:08) Mm   And do you see that a lot with the people that you're working with where they have like a real release or something old comes out when they're stretching in a certain way or they're a lot of times in the hips I hear that a lot of people hold a lot of tension in their hips and emotions there as well.   Desi (10:27) Yes. So three places in the body that tend to store a lot. Number one, as you said, in the hips, specifically the psoas, the hip flexors tend to hold a lot of old tension around fight or flight. So I know you and I have spoken before about fight or flight. Think about it, Michelle, if you're if you're getting ready to like either dig in and fight or just hightail it out of there, what activates the hip flexors? Because that's what activates what you're going to run.   or when you're going to stay and squat and push. So it's totally normal to.   Michelle (10:56) Right.   Desi (11:01) the body or for the body to tell us rather, hey, I need to release all this because I didn't even use it. You know, I realized I was only on the 405 freeway. I didn't need to fight or flee. It was just my body spinning out because there was so much stress. So that's where something like yoga comes in and deep hip openers and release. And we can let all of that go. But getting back to my original   Michelle (11:09) Bye.   Right.   Desi (11:28) point, the other two places in the body where we tend to store particular emotions, and this isn't one size fits all, you you might experience one thing somewhere else in the body, totally normal. But generally speaking as human beings, the second place where we tend to store it is in the shoulders. And so especially in our modern day like tech neck kind of world, you kind of notice that the voice goes up and the shoulders go up when we get stressed.   Michelle (11:46) Mm   Desi (11:55) And that also has to do with like fear and anxiety. So we're carrying quite literally the weight of the world on our shoulders. So we can start to release that and relax the trapezius and breathe into that. And then the third and final common place for us to store a lot of muscular tension is in the jaw. And pound for pound, this is like the strongest part of the body, which is crazy.   Michelle (12:17) Mm   Desi (12:23) That's why when we grind our teeth, can quite literally take bone through bone because it's so strong. So this is usually related to words left unspoken, needing to speak your truth, let it out. And how many times in this lifetime have we been told like, just it won't serve you to tell your boss off or that kind of thing. Yes, that's true. But when and where do we actually get to release it?   Michelle (12:24) That is pretty crazy.   Desi (12:52) Have you gone for a walk this morning and just, just let it all go with a great big exhale? It can help. I'm of Mexican ancestry, I'm Mexican and Russian. And I remember when I lived in Mexico, I learned the expression, ay un dicho, caerita te ves mas bonita. It means when you're quiet, you look prettier. And so there's this messaging around like, it in. And so I'm here to tell you like,   Michelle (12:55) Yeah.   Yeah. Yeah, get it out. It's true. It's true. I've been a meditator for a while and I think that I think everybody should at least try it because there's so much benefit to going internally because it really connects you to listening to your body and listening to what's going on. And of course too many meditators will understand this. think if they hear this,   Desi (13:20) Let it out.   Michelle (13:43) is that you get a lot of downloads. actually allows for an opportunity for a lot of intuitive downloads. And unless you really allow yourself that space, you may not realize that. But I think a lot of people who everybody that I've talked to that meditates is like, my God, that happens to me. So, so therefore my conclusion is that when you sit and meditate, you do get intuitive hits and downloads. And so one of the things that came to me   Desi (14:01) Definitely.   Michelle (14:12) is it's like maintaining and cleansing. It's like you need to maintain your mind and your body by cleansing and releasing often just like you do anything else, even in your household, even the oil in your car, everything, even your body when you're releasing waste. I you need to release energetically. And I think that's something that is so often ignored. And people could just   get in a habit of holding and holding and holding. And it's almost like emotional constipation. Like you literally are holding it in. I know I'm really great with analogies, but you really like literally are holding it in. And so, they say kind of like you're holding so much weight and holding onto so much of the past or things that are holding you back, it's true. Like there's really truth in that.   And so sometimes when I get quiet, that's when I start to feel, I'm holding a lot. I wasn't even aware of that. And I think that that's what is so beautiful specifically with yoga, because yoga is movement and meditation and mindfulness at the same time and breath work, which is a whole other thing, because in the breath work, you can release so much as well.   Desi (15:27) Amen, yes. So meditation is sort of like brushing your teeth. It's something that we can do daily and it's a cleanse as you were saying. And so if we can simply take the time to connect, I like to share with folks that you can do it first thing in the morning. So when you first wake up in the morning, before you even open your eyes, slow the breath down and perhaps you even go back into the dream state and just ask yourself,   your higher self, show me, show me, show me. What am I meant to do today? What is the dream of my life and how can I take the next step? What is the right next step? And let it reveal itself to you. So in the same way that we have this muscular body and all of the beautiful processes that are happening every day, obviously, of course, we have the vital organs. And it's so interesting to me because   the yogis when they started to understand the chakras and the energetic body, it really lines up to like the organs in our body. So what you're talking about specifically is third eye, right? And so third eye relates to the pituitary. And this is vision beyond what's in front of our eyes. And I think we've all experienced this, whether you're daydreaming or in a deep state of prayer for those of who   for those of you who pray, there's this moment of being able to see like, that's the next right step. And you can breathe into it and you can feel that peace within your body. But if you go directly from the sleep state to the phone and CNN, Fox, like, boy, there's so much happening right now in the world, it will pull you off your center immediately.   Michelle (17:00) Mm   No, Yeah.   Mm   Desi (17:16) Before you give yourself to the world, I'm just gonna ask you to give yourself a moment to breathe and really decide for yourself, where is it I wanna show up today? How can I be of service? And I feel like that sets you up for success.   Michelle (17:35) I love that. I love that because it is a proactive way to really approach your day. And I always talk about the proactive versus reactive because yeah, we can react. We get our phone or somebody wants something from us. Then all of our actions are reactions really to something else that's pulling on us. And so when we do that at the beginning of our day, before we have any pull,   whatsoever. I just think that is so beautiful and that is so wise to start off your day with your own intention, with your own calling, with your own moment. I just think that is a hugely powerful practice. And I know that people who do things like that are more successful, like not just in their business, but I mean, they use this for business   because it works in the business because it's powerful in general. So you could use this for anything, for your personal life, for everything.   Desi (18:33) Absolutely. And to your point, I think it was probably three, four years ago, all of a sudden I started hearing about morning rituals. And I'm like, all right, the marketing folks have gotten a hold of this technique. And I don't judge. I love it. I love that the word is spread out to everyone because if it works, it's universal truth.   Michelle (18:41) Yeah.   totally. You can apply to everything for sure. But I remember watching Miracle Morning And then I read the book. It's fascinating. highly recommend people watch the video, which is free. You could find the video for free, but you can also get the book. And I thought it was fascinating. He basically looked, he pulled all the things that people who are successful in their life or like   felt control over their life. What did they do? What's their like magic ingredient? So he would find things like meditation in the morning. It all started in the morning because in the morning it's you're getting in before everybody else gets you. Just like you said, you know, before anything else happens, get yourself then catch it. It's like getting your, know, when you're telling your boss something and you're catching him right before he goes into the meeting into the craziness. And so it's a good time to catch yourself as well.   Desi (19:46) So I'd love to just also talk a little bit about the why behind all of this. So it's all so fascinating and what we're talking about. You and I are so aligned with our messaging and being of service to women and really empowering women with the tools that they need to create the dream of their lives. And I wanted to share for a moment part of why I do this. So.   I love yoga and meditation and fitness and all the things. And it's been such an integral part of my life and my path. And I don't know why, Michelle, but I'm called to share this story today. On September 11th, 2001, I was on a plane. I had gone home to Chicago for my 30th birthday and I was going back to Cabo San Lucas, Mexico, where I lived at the time. And I heard over the intercom, we need to make a landing right now.   And as soon as we landed, I got off the plane and I saw the television screens. We landed in Tulsa, Oklahoma, obviously not the intended place. I was supposed to go all the way to Mexico. And I saw on the screen tower two and the plane hitting tower two. And so I was in Tulsa, Oklahoma for three days waiting for travel to be available again. And I   I made the mistake of watching a lot of the news and it was so heavy to take all of that in because I could feel so much pain, not just my own but those around me. And so I turned off the television and I used my tools and I went into a very, very deep state of meditation. And I said, show me, show me, show me, how can I be of service? How can I help?   And what I heard at that time, and I don't usually share this because it feels so deeply personal, but because we're talking to women on a fertility journey, that's personal and I wanna meet them where they are. I heard, share your gifts, share your gifts, share your gifts. And for me, what are my gifts? My gift to this world is helping you to feel good in your own body.   helping you to feel strong and capable and flexible and do anything that you want. So when the international borders finally opened again, I went to Mexico, I sold everything I had. I jumped on a plane and moved to Los Angeles two weeks later. And the reason I moved to LA specifically is because as silly as it might sound to some, it was really important to me to do.   yoga and fitness DVDs in English, in Spanish, to do prenatal fitness, yoga, all of the things. And so LA was the right fit. And LA was such a gift to me because it also, it led me to my husband and having babies and writing books and all the things. So I just really highly encourage you when there is trauma or pain or doubt, go within, listen.   get so quiet that you can actually hear this is the next right step.   Michelle (22:54) Thank you so much for sharing that. and I know it was a very personal story. So thank you so much for sharing that. That is a really, really profound, because I think that oftentimes it's such a human reaction when something bad happens or you're feeling emotions that are overwhelming, you want to either distract yourself or make it stop. I think of the saying, the only way out is through.   And I can't say just how true that is. there's, there is no other way, cause it will come back up. And I see that all the time when people come in for acupuncture, or even people say when they're doing yoga, they get into a certain stretch and it does come out because it's being held. If it doesn't go through, it's being held.   Really, if you look at like ancient culture and ancient tradition, ancient wisdom, they always say to go within. They're always pointing you inward. It's incredible.   Desi (23:52) Absolutely. because of so much of what you've studied comes from China and so much of what I've studied comes from India, we have this Eastern perspective that we can weave into the Western. Eastern isn't necessarily better. Western isn't necessarily bad. And I hear some people saying like, it's so Western. I'm like, well, Western also brought us like antibiotics. So we don't want to throw it away.   Michelle (24:14) Right, totally.   Desi (24:17) But we can weave that wisdom of centuries old Eastern traditions into what we know now.   Michelle (24:25) Yeah, absolutely. Amazing. so working with fertility, I know you do fertility yoga as well. What are some of the things and the tools that you use to help women when they're trying to conceive?   Desi (24:40) So a lot of what I do in addition to strengthening the body and making sure that the body feels ready to carry a pregnancy is meditation. We go into a very deep state of meditation. I often have women bring one hand to the heart and one hand to the womb, close your eyes and communicate with your baby and invite your baby into this space.   Michelle (24:58) Love that.   Desi (25:04) on his or her own divine right timing. It's not up to us. And as much as we want to decide like, it's today, it's this week, it's this year, that baby, that soul, in my opinion, has its own path. And so we honor that and we talk to the baby and we say, hey, know, however it is that you're going to come through, if it's through my body and this vessel, I welcome you.   If it's through another woman's body or another means, I honor you, but I'm ready to receive you in my arms. And so we make this heart to heart call, essentially, you're calling in the baby and you're letting the baby and the soul know I'm ready for you. again, however that comes is beautiful.   Michelle (25:56) Yeah, I love that. And what's really amazing is that there's this heart uterus connection with, so the heart basically is connected to the uterus. think we spoke about that when I was on the live. Did we talk about that?   Desi (26:08) We did, and it was the first time I've ever heard anyone say it. So I'd love if you could speak more about it because you intrigued me and I'm like, I love this.   Michelle (26:17) yeah, it's incredible. I talk about this a lot. actually like have a whole chapter on in the way of such an integral part really of conception, the heart plays a very strong role. I think it's overlooked a lot. And this is one of the reasons why your emotions make such an impact really on everything. I mean, you could say also fertility, but really everything.   but the heart specifically has a role in opening the uterus. So it has a role in labor as well. And what's really, really fascinating is that oxytocin, is coined as the heart hormone, the love hormone, which is one of the other things that I'm seeing as bridging science of the new to the old teachings is that oxytocin   has an impact on contracting the uterus. And it's one of the things that gets things started in labor. So when you're opening the uterus, it's opening for both taking in and taking out. So Ina Mae Gaskin she was midwife and I remember hearing this phrase from her that says the same energy that gets the baby in gets   gets the baby out. well, oxytocin also plays a role around ovulation. increases. Why is that? It's not random. Why would it increase around ovulation? Why would it increase after orgasm? Like around that time? Why would it do that if it had no role? Nothing is left with no role. Like everything's planned in our always something that's there for a reason.   So I always found that interesting because that's kind of like how we measure it in conventional medicine or modern science. And it really correlates to that. And I love the fact that you said that you put your hands, which I think your hands too have so much energy. And when we love somebody, we put our hands on them. So I love that you put your hands on your heart and your womb because having that connection, even touching it, when we're touching something, we're placing our intention there.   And also, you know, our arms are kind of connected via the heart. So it's almost like a circuit that happens energetically. And I'm like, I just think that is amazing that you do that.   Desi (28:39) It's so interesting that you say that it's like a circuit because if you look at all of the older like statues of the divine feminine, that's how their arms are held. And like you're saying, it's a continuation of the heart energy or the heart chakra energy that travels through the arms and the hands as conduits. And to go back to like muscular science nerd speak,   Michelle (28:57) Mm   Desi (29:02) If I put my hands on one of your muscles while you're training, the muscle can and or will contract up to 50 % more efficiently if I'm touching you. So if a trainer is, isn't it cool? If a trainer is like tapping on your bicep while you're doing a bicep curl, it isn't just like, hey, Michelle, this is the muscle. It's to activate that muscle for that muscle to go, wait, yeah, I'm supposed to contract. So in the same way,   Michelle (29:02) You   That's so cool.   That's fascinating. That is amazing.   Desi (29:31) Cool. So in the same way that we can remind the muscles, we can remind the organs and the energy body, like, hey, I see you, I feel you, but let's do, let's show up in the way that we're supposed to today.   Michelle (29:47) I love that. Thank you for that information. Cause that, I mean, that is blowing my mind. I didn't even realize that it was like that responsive, but it makes sense. It makes sense. That would be responsive to touch in general. Like, and we know that that love and touch even for premature babies helps them dramatically. So I always say, you know, if that love and touch helps that, why wouldn't it help the conception as well? And I just think that kind of centering in.   So continue, so you were saying that connecting with the heart and the uterus and just really like getting into your body and making that connection is one of the first ways that you start.   Desi (30:27) Yes, I work with so many women who don't ever think about their uterus or their womb. And when I say words like vaginal canal or entroitis, there's still a little bit of this puritanical energy that I think we carry, especially in the United States. And you'll hear almost like the little beavis and butt head giggle very often. I do it too.   Michelle (30:46) Mm   Desi (30:50) They said that. And so I go back to how you were saying that there's a reason for everything. One of my very first jobs, my goodness, I think I was like just barely 18, was as a weight loss counselor. Do remember Jenny Craig? We used to make us say like all of these ridiculous words like gas bubbles and   Michelle (30:52) You   Yes.   Desi (31:20) Constipation. We just, had to see all these words over and over and over so that we were really, really comfortable saying it without giggling because we needed to be able to speak to people about what was happening in their GI system and if that was related to holding on to weight. So when I'm speaking with women, I like to use the words and let's talk about your womb and your vagina and your uterus and the energy that we're bringing into these areas so that we can start to wake it up.   So it's not just like, yeah, down there. I hear a lot of people say down there. And I'm like, down where? Like, let's talk about it. Let's talk to our bodies. And if we want our bodies to be responsive in the way that we want a dear friend to be responsive and to show up for us, let's talk to it with love and respect and by its correct name.   Michelle (31:51) Mm   Mm -hmm. Yeah. I love that. really love that perspective of just really being there and seeing it for what it is and honoring it and not pushing it away uncomfortably and just really taking it in because I do feel like your body and your intention.   and your own energy and emotion towards it.   Desi (32:37) Amen. And so what I teach women is about the energetic body and chakras. And the second chakra is, of course, where we unite with another. So if the first chakra is the foundation, we are we're standing on our own as as women or as men. It's the individual. The second chakra is where we come into communion with another. We share our body with another. If we are wishing to conceive, that's the energy that we bring in.   So going back to like Ina Mae Gaskin and the energy that you conceive with is the energy that helps with labor and delivery. How do you want to bring a baby into this world? Is it with love and union and respect and reverence? Yeah, for me, yes. So we got to talk about it.   Michelle (33:25) Yeah.   for sure. And I also think that I also love working with chakras. I had a background in Ayurveda. So we talked about the chakras and then even Chinese medicine, you can see that there are certain points that correspond to those chakras. what I first saw, it's a thing. It's a vortex on your body. has energy. You can feel it. And even just thinking about it in meditation, just your thought alone, your awareness can release it and work on it. And   Another thing is, so we talk about the chakras, we talk about all the different things, but the chakras are interrelated. They communicate, they're, especially the neighboring ones, they are related. So I always think about like the first chakra is safety. If you're not feeling safe, can impact your period. It can impact your reproductive health. So it's almost like you need to be safe in order to create. you're,   know, second chakra is depending on that foundation of the safety and that rootedness and that groundedness. If you're in survival, you can't create cause you're too busy surviving.   Desi (34:40) Yes. And to your point, you were discussing, you and I were chatting the other day about how the body holds on to the energy in the arms and the legs when it's in fight or flight. So it can hightail out of a stressful situation. So how are you supposed to conceive in that environment? So it's interesting that every other chakra is individual or communion with another.   Michelle (34:52) Yeah.   Mm   Desi (35:07) So we have first is just you, second is the sexual energy, third is your creativity, fourth is love. And so we kind of go back and forth between this me on my own and me with another. And so I think that's really fascinating. So we can start to explore with our partner if we're wishing to conceive, how do we share our energy with one another? And then getting back to nerd science, because I always take it back there, it's also   Michelle (35:15) Mm   Desi (35:36) important to think about how each chakra relates to the endocrine system. And so second chakra, you know, then we're talking about like reproductive hormones. And I learned this because I have thyroid issues. And so I've been on Synthroid for like 35 years. And yes, I'm ready to get off it. And yes, I need to work with an acupuncture as like yesterday. But what I learned is that   Michelle (35:46) Mm   Desi (36:01) fifth chakra or the voice and listen to my voice tremble as I even say that it it's related to the thyroid. So what's happening in in the second chakra and the reproductive hormonal response it's all related and it's my honor and my joy to teach women about their bodies physically and their energy bodies.   Michelle (36:03) Mm -hmm.   Desi (36:27) And I have to just take a moment in gratitude for you because again, I feel this resonance and alignment and you and I speak the same language of Eastern and Western blended.   Michelle (36:40) Yeah, I feel the same way, Desi. I actually really feel resonant with you and what you're saying. I'm like, you're speaking my language. And I think also about the how in between the heart and the mind is the voice. It's kind of like the go between with your heart, which is right there. And so when we're aligned with that, with the love,   I think that that is very healing, just really loving ourselves, accepting ourselves, allowing ourselves that beautiful gift of expression.   Desi (37:12) Amen. And so when we're speaking to one another, just as humans, if I'm working with a client, for example, that's where I always start. Hey, how are you? And actually listening. I don't want to just hear that. Fine, how are you? But like, really, how are you? What's happening? What's happening in your body, your mind and your heart? And let that come through. And as they share their voice,   Michelle (37:25) Mm   Desi (37:38) That's when I start to get impressions of like, okay, we can go here, we can go there. But the simple act of sharing our truth is so important.   Michelle (37:48) without a doubt. I think just listening, just because so many people feel, this is what I hear, that they're not being heard. A lot of times when they go to the doctor, they say, like, I don't really feel like I was heard. I didn't really get a chance to ask my questions. I asked my questions, but they dismissed it. And I feel like that just by itself can really impact you on so many levels of feeling, you know, that feeling of safety or being held or being supported.   So I think just being there as a space to listen and for people to be able to express themselves is such a gift that you can give them. And it was interesting because yesterday we happened to have a live yesterday on Instagram. And you were saying that you really feel in your gut, like I was aligned. I feel the same way about you. I feel in my heart that you are very passionate. Like you are coming from such a   purposeful place with the people that you're working with and with your work, which is really amazing. I love it. I really appreciate that. And to see that, I think that if all of us found our true purpose and work through that passion, that's how we heal.   Desi (39:00) Amen. Yes, thank you. Thank you for saying that. It's received and appreciated. And again, I made a vow to the universe on that day in 2001. This is why I'm here. I continue to honor it, to renew it, and I wake up with my heart full every day.   Michelle (39:24) I love that so much. So for people who are listening to this, because I'm sure that a lot of people are really inspired by everything that you're sharing, how can they find you? How can they work with you? Because I know that you do bring out a lot of your lessons out for people to receive.   Desi (39:41) So you can find me really easily through my website. It's desibartlett .com. I have a whole new subscription platform on there for folks who want to enjoy the body mind workout, which is a combination of meditation, yoga, and fitness. I also have books available that are on there, one of which is called Your Strong Sexy Pregnancy, a yoga and fitness guide. And there is a fertility section in there. So if you're thinking, wait, I'm not pregnant yet.   please know that there is a message there for you as well. I'm also super active on Instagram. You can find me at mothers into living fit. So however I can best help support you on your path, I'm here.   Michelle (40:25) Awesome. Desi, this was such a great conversation. I've really enjoyed all of the conversations that we had even leading up to this. And I'm just so excited to meet another practitioner who I resonate so much with and has so much soul really in what they're doing. So thank you so much for coming on today.   Desi (40:45) Thank you, Michelle, and thank you for all that you're doing and for letting me be a part of it. It's my pleasure.    

 On tomorrow’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Dr. Sarah Wilson of @drsarah_nd. Dr. Sarah Wilson shares her personal journey with reproductive health and how she overcame challenges with her period and fertility. She emphasizes the importance of understanding one's own body and advocating for oneself in the medical system. Dr. Wilson discusses the role of the immune system and gut health in reproductive health, highlighting the connection between inflammation, gut bacteria, and hormonal balance. She explains how basic blood work can provide valuable insights into one's health and offers practical tips for addressing gut health issues. Dr. Sarah Wilson discusses the importance of gut health and its impact on overall well-being. She explains how the gut microbiome plays a crucial role in maintaining a healthy immune system and how imbalances in the microbiome can lead to various health issues. Dr. Wilson emphasizes the need to create a hospitable environment for beneficial bacteria to thrive and shares insights on the use of probiotics and spore-based organisms. Dr. Wilson provides practical tips for improving gut health, such as eating whole foods, avoiding processed foods, and managing stress.   Guest Bio:   On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Dr. Sarah Wilson, ND. Dr. Sarah Wilson discusses the importance of gut health and its impact on overall well-being. She explains how the gut microbiome plays a crucial role in maintaining a healthy immune system and how imbalances in the microbiome can lead to various health issues. Dr. Wilson emphasizes the need to create a hospitable environment for beneficial bacteria to thrive and shares insights on the use of probiotics and spore-based organisms. Dr. Wilson provides practical tips for improving gut health, such as eating whole foods, avoiding processed foods, and managing stress.   Takeaways:   Advocate for yourself and seek answers when faced with reproductive health challenges. Understanding the role of the immune system and gut health is crucial for reproductive health. Basic blood work can provide valuable insights into one's health and help identify patterns and tendencies. Addressing gut health issues, such as inflammation and imbalances in gut bacteria, can positively impact reproductive health. Maintaining a healthy gut microbiome is essential for overall well-being and a strong immune system. Creating a hospitable environment for beneficial bacteria to thrive is crucial for gut health. The gut-brain connection and the enteric nervous system play a significant role in gut health. Managing stress, eating whole foods, and avoiding processed foods are important for improving gut health.       Dr. Sarah Wilson, ND, is the visionary founder of Advanced Women's Health, leading a healthcare revolution across Canada with clinics in Ontario and British Columbia. Overcoming her own health challenges, Sarah is dedicated to empowering women to reclaim their vitality naturally, merging research-backed expertise with her passion for Naturopathic Medicine. Beyond her professional pursuits, she is the Mom to two latino boys under 5 and is a self-proclaimed personal development and mindset fanatic.   www.advancedwomenshealth.ca  Instagram:   @drsarah_nd @advancedwomenshealthclinics   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Wilson.   Sarah Wilson (00:02) Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited. I just really can't get enough of sharing all of the information that women need about reproductive health and empowerment. So thank you for having me.   Michelle (00:14) Love it. So I'd love for you to share your background and how you got into the work with reproductive health.   Sarah Wilson (00:21) It's such a huge conversation, I think such an important one because for so many of us, we get into it because we needed the medicine, right? And we explored that. So my story I always say is a really winding one. I was in and out of hospital my whole life until I was 18 and I was diagnosed with celiac disease, but I didn't fit the bill. And it was a naturopathic doctor that really pushed for that initial diagnosis. And so then, as we all do,   Michelle (00:28) Mm -hmm, yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Sarah Wilson (00:49) I avoided my calling and was trying to figure out how to recover and how to work within this and lost my period for almost five years. And so during this time, I was a researcher and I was seeing different naturopathic doctors. I was seeing different conventional doctors and specialists and people just kept saying they didn't know what was going on and they couldn't figure out why I was, like I wasn't exceptionally lean during much of that period of time. Like they just couldn't piece it together.   Michelle (00:58) wow.   Sarah Wilson (01:18) I had a doctor, think it was 21, 22, that was like, you might never have kids on your own. If you wanna get pregnant, come back to me, I'll give you a pill, we'll wish you the best.   Michelle (01:28) So nonchalant.   Sarah Wilson (01:31) And I just, I always say there's a few breakdown to breakthrough moments in my life and that was a big one where I was just like, absolutely not. I have the world available to me. I have all of this research. There must be something I can figure out. So that proceeded to really get me to push to work and find the research and piece things together. And I did bring back my period. And then when it came back, it was exceptionally painful. I was passing out. I had been on birth control.   Michelle (01:37) Mm -hmm. Yeah, good.   Mm -hmm.   Sarah Wilson (02:00) since I was 13 because of the amount of pain and heaviness. And so that's what it was like, okay, now we have to navigate this world of endometriosis and what that means. so yeah, now fast all the way forward, I became an astrophysicist doctor. I have two babies with two tries. I do not live in chronic pain and I'm just so passionate about taking all that research. I had to figure out myself and...   Michelle (02:09) Mm   Mm   Mm   Sarah Wilson (02:26) had to bring into practice and navigate how to bring into practice to now be able to give that to patients across advanced women's health clinics in Canada. it's just, it's a very empowering end to a really challenging journey, which I think so many people listening have.   Michelle (02:44) Yeah, for sure. What I love about what you were saying is that knowing that inner knowing you're like, no, absolutely not. Like you knew it in your heart. Because a lot of people hear that. And then they're like, okay, I guess that's just my fate. And I love, you know, I love when people are like, no, I'm gonna take no for an answer. I'm gonna figure it out. and it's also an intuition. It's like your own intelligence within you telling you, no, there's more to look into. I had a similar   thing a little different, but similar. so what was it, let's kind of go back just because people might be in similar situations with their period, listening to this. What was it that really caused the five years without period? was it being on a pill for a long time? What was it that caused that?   Sarah Wilson (03:29) So I was actually, my presentation of celiac disease was very different. I was 100 pounds heavier than I am now. I perfectly, I exercised and I was obese. And so what, the brain is such a beautiful thing. And what I believe happened is that being obese, going through puberty programmed my brain for what body fatness, quote unquote, I needed to have in order to be safe to have a baby.   Michelle (03:36) Mm   Mm   Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Sarah Wilson (03:59) And so for most people, they lose their periods around 16, 18 % body fat. I tend to hover around 23, 24. If I dip below that, then my period starts to go as long, it goes wonky. It's much better now, but the research suggests that when you have inflammation interacting with your brain, when you have cortisol interacting with your brain, what happens is we actually change how sensitive we are to the signals between the brain and the ovaries.   Michelle (04:08) Mm   Mm   Sarah Wilson (04:28) And so I think that in combination with all these set point theories, there's so many things happening now in the world of set points, that combination is what it was. So for me, getting my inflammation under control, which we'll talk about, getting an understanding that I had stress, but it was physiological stress. I had nutrient deficiencies, I had bacterial overgrows, I had inflammation, like I had all of those pieces.   that were interacting with my brain and my hormones. And so I just needed to go through step by step. I needed to work on my gut microbiome. I needed to work on the nervous system component. But fundamentally, I needed to understand that my body, the way it works and its sensitivity is set at a slightly different point than other people's.   Michelle (05:18) Yeah, well, for sure. I mean, I think that that's really at the crux of everything is that everybody has their own different set point and different like, you know, responses, their bodies respond to different foods, different environments, different stress factors, just so many things. And I think that that's the key. I often see a lot of people sometimes come in to see me and they're well, I'm taking this kind of like,   combination herbs that I saw online or, you know, so, that's, that's one of the things that I really try to stress to people is that everybody's so different. And so when you were going through that, you were uncovering it. Obviously you had a natural path that you were working with. Yeah, multiple. So they, you had a team.   Sarah Wilson (05:58) And multiple. Yeah, absolutely. And I think I always say I'm the most energetic scientist you'll ever meet in your whole life. Like data informs every single decision. And then you sit in front of the person in front of you and you say, OK, what's their energy? Right. Like what? How do you need to to build those things together? And so, yeah, I had a team I had.   Michelle (06:09) Mm   Mm right. Totally.   Sarah Wilson (06:23) And I had multiple naturopathic doctors try to work their way through it. I had OB -GYNs and my family healthcare team trying to help navigate it. And it was just, I was in the typical situation. I was in the situation that 90 % of my patients are in. Everyone's like, you're fine. It's fine. Your blood work is fine. Right? And that's, think, even for me doing research, one of the projects I was on was we were studying metabolically healthy people, metabolically unhealthy people.   Michelle (06:41) Right, exactly. Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (06:52) We were studying them in lean and obese categories. And so the labs going through and they're pulling all this data. And it was the first time that I'm sitting there going, huh, okay. So we can have people that are metabolically very healthy and overweight. And we can have people that are very lean and extremely metabolically unhealthy. And this was, it was such a formative experience because I remember sitting there going.   Michelle (06:55) Mm   Mm -hmm, right.   Sarah Wilson (07:20) The blood work, the way we're reading it right now means nothing. Right? Like we need to be rude.   Michelle (07:25) There's so much more. It's just a snapshot. It's like a small, it's a small little slice. And I think that's something that I often see too, is that we make such generalized assumptions based on such a small little snapshot. And while that snapshot is very important, it's, it's kind of a piece to the puzzle. It's not the end all be all it's part of the whole picture.   Sarah Wilson (07:28) Exactly.   Exactly, and if we use a conventional reference range that's defined based on disease, like I think in North America, we've really lost the understanding that there's a line between health and disease. Like you don't just jump from one to the other like long jump, right? It's not like I'm healthy today and tomorrow I have a disease. Like there's this spectrum of dis -ease as we make our way to a condition. And I think identifying patterns in labs.   and identifying tendencies is arguably more important than the snapshot itself, you're 100 % correct. And so we have to look at that data holistically and say, how is that changing? How is that modifying over time? But also I think there's so much research now where we can give people back the keys to the castle with that basic blood work, right? Even for example, everyone has had what we call a complete blood count. We've had multiple of them. So that's...   A complete blood count is when we're looking at your red blood cells and your white blood cells. We're looking at the breakdown of those things. It's the thing you get when you walk into the doctor's office, when you get when you walk into the hospital, et cetera. They're always just saying, what's your white blood cells? What's your red blood cells doing, et cetera. And there's two white blood cells called neutrophils and lymphocytes. They are just representing two aspects of our immune system that are fighting bacteria and viruses and they're helping to support the system.   But there is a ton of research coming out to show that the ratio between neutrophil and lymphocytes can tell us about the inflammatory status of the body. So if your NLR, as we call it, neutrophil to lymphocyte ratio, is higher than 2 .5 or 3, chances are you've got an immunological underpinning to what's going on. And so for me with endometriosis, I was in the hospital a while ago now, and I was having a flare, and I was worried about ovarian torsion, because at one point I had had a 10 centimeter endometrial.   Michelle (09:30) Mm -hmm.   Sarah Wilson (09:40) like it was very, very large and it's not there now, but I just wanted to go in and make sure that there wasn't something happening because it felt different. And my NLR was six, but outside of that, it was one or two. So this is something I always say to patients, you can even empower yourself just looking at that number and being like, if that number is jumping high and it's correlating with my symptoms, if I have worse menstrual pain or worse mood challenges or   Michelle (09:42) Mm -hmm.   Mm   Mm   Mm -hmm.   Sarah Wilson (10:08) I get pregnant and these things jump and then I have a loss, what could that be telling you about your immune system? And I think there's such simple things. Of course, we can run super comprehensive panels of labs and get all of the autoimmune tests. And like I've heard you talk about them on the podcast before, right? You can get really comprehensive panels and that's wonderful. And I love that as a doctor and a researcher, I love data. But what I love even more is saying, let's look at the past two or three years.   Michelle (10:26) Mm   Mm   Right.   Sarah Wilson (10:37) What are these basic blood markers telling us about your tendencies and how much we need to dig into different components of health, like your immune system, your blood sugar, those types of things?   Michelle (10:48) So you could see this basically on just general blood work.   Sarah Wilson (10:53) Exactly. And so that's where I think for me.   Michelle (10:55) And do people often look like, do doctors even know to look for that specific thing? So it's kind of one of those things that people don't really look for, but you can kind of dig up your own stuff and just look at the ratio yourself.   Sarah Wilson (11:07) Exactly. Exactly. And that's why I think I come on these podcasts and I do these things because not everyone has access to a naturopathic doctor. Not everyone can be a researcher. Exactly. So to be able to look at that and start to question, even when I was in the hospital, I was like, are you concerned about that? And they're like, maybe you have a bacterial infection. It's not a big deal. Okay. Okay. Right? But it's...   Michelle (11:16) Yeah, that's very empowering.   Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (11:30) It's those things that I want people to be able to grab onto and access for themselves because what I know to be true in my practice, seeing so many people, is when you give women access to information about their bodies, they change communities, households, everything. Like it is the most empowering thing for me to come on a podcast and talk about something and then...   Michelle (11:46) Mm   Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (11:57) get someone message me and be like, my friend of a friend of a friend told me to look at this and now I'm concerned about it. And I'm like, yeah, you should probably get that investigated. And then it's ovarian cancer. You know what I mean? Like this is how powerful just these conversations are.   Michelle (12:08) my God, yeah.   Yeah, it's very powerful. mean, obviously when you do see that something's off, it'll get you at least to take the next steps or to investigate it more because you can't really make, you know that something's going on, but you have to like really move further and see what it is. But at least it's going to be an alarm to let you know something's going on.   Sarah Wilson (12:35) Mmm.   And a direction, right? I, every day, pretty much at this point, I'm talking to someone who's like, everything I was told was unexplained, right? And in the fertility world, if you're unexplained infertility, you either have a baby or you don't, right? So there's clarity in that, no one's saying, your infertility is in your head. But in every other aspect, there's not those clear end points. And so,   Michelle (12:40) Mm   Mm -hmm.   Mm   Sarah Wilson (13:07) if someone's dealing with chronic pain and they aren't getting investigated for endometriosis or some other condition, they can be told it's all in their head. So even if they can see on basic blood work, one or two things that are off, it's like, there, go there, let's do this. And I think that's what's so exciting to me.   Michelle (13:24) Mm -hmm. Right, right.   Yeah, definitely huge. So talk about the immune system. this is one of the things that you can look at, I know that there is a lot of a connection with autoimmune conditions and the gut health and, high inflammation and leaky gut. So talk about that, how people can look into it and how they can address it.   Sarah Wilson (13:53) Absolutely. So I actually also was a microbiome researcher at one point in my profession. It's so important. And even now, like post pandemic, we've seen it so much more important because historically, what do we always say? Is 60 to 80 % of your immune system lives in your gut. Okay. So there is within your gut, there is, it's so interesting. Picture a PVC pipe, right? On the inside, if there's Play -Doh.   Michelle (13:59) awesome. Amazing, though, but it's so important.   Mm   Mm   Sarah Wilson (14:23) that's where the bacteria live, right? But that's actually outside of your body. And so that play -doh is either poop, in those of us who are lovingly chronically constipated, or it's the mucosal lining that the bacteria live within. So that's where the immune system is really, really critical, is within that putty lining. And so what happens is that immune system's job, because it's technically outside of your body, mouth.   Michelle (14:26) Mm   Mm   Sarah Wilson (14:51) all the way down to your anus is outside of your body. Its whole job is to say, are you a food and you're safe? Are you a bacteria and you're safe? Are you a virus and you're not safe? Are you a bacteria and you're not safe? And the whole job of that immune system is to sample and navigate. Do I need to kick off an inflammatory response or do I not? Am I safe or am I not? And so what we're looking at is when we start to have allergies.   and we start to have food responses and all these food sensitivities when we start to have bloating and gas changes in bowel movements. That's all telling us that our immune system either one has identified a bacteria or virus that needs to go and it's kicking off a response to it or two, it has what we call lost oral tolerance. It has lost the ability to know between what's good and what's bad.   Michelle (15:46) Mm.   Sarah Wilson (15:47) And so in both of those situations, that is going to result in inflammation, not just local to our gut, but throughout what we call our peritoneal cavity, right? So that's gonna be your ovaries. I always say, your bowel and your ovaries and your uterus are friends. Like for those of you who can't see it, they're touching, they're friends. So we have that inflammation in our reproductive system. We have that inflammation affecting our liver.   then it goes into our bloodstream. It affects our joints, it affects our brain. That's why we talk so much about the gut brain connection, because there's that inflammation there. But as a practitioner, my job is to sit here and say, is it that we have so much inflammation? There is this absence of an ability to regulate, should I fight this or should I not?   Is it that there's so much damage being caused by inflammation that now we have leaky gut or impermeability, right? Because the immune system will cause damage and it's trying to fight something and there's collateral damage. So is it that or is it that there's bacteria that need to be modified? And so I think it's really helpful, even like thought experiment to think about it in that way, because so much of the time when it comes to the gut, we   Michelle (16:43) Mm   Mm   Sarah Wilson (17:05) are assuming that our symptoms are wrong. Like, what's wrong with my gut? Right? Like, we're a victim to it. Like, our immune system is doing something bad. But nine times out of 10, it's trying its best to protect us. And so our job is to say, what is it protecting you against?   Michelle (17:08) Mm -hmm. Right.   Mm   Mm   Right.   Sarah Wilson (17:25) So when we're navigating and we're going through then, we hear all about probiotics and we hear all about these different things and all of them can be helpful and have their place, right? We hear about armor colostrum all the time these days on different podcasts, right? We hear about all these things. And so I always say, think about them and put them in the context of what I just said. So if we don't have enough good bugs and we add probiotics, which are good bugs,   Michelle (17:36) Mm   Mm right, yeah.   Sarah Wilson (17:52) then that will take us so far. for, again, for those of you who can't see, I've got my hands up, right? Picture it like a bar graph. So if you don't have enough good bugs and that bar is low and you have too many bad bugs, then the dominant state is bad bugs. So if you add a whole bunch of good bugs, then eventually you can turn that dominant state into good bugs. But probiotics are transient, they leave the system. So you still have that low grade bad bug situation.   Michelle (18:06) Mm   Sarah Wilson (18:21) So this is where we hear about berberine, right? We hear about oregano, we hear about black cumin seed, we're hearing so much about all of these herbs now, because what they're doing is they're breaking down the bad bugs to allow the good bugs to grow, to repair the lining. it's, there's such a huge dance with the bugs in the gut and the immune system and how that affects the rest of your body, but what we know for darn sure is that   Michelle (18:23) Mm   Right.   Right.   Sarah Wilson (18:49) There are overgrowths that are happening more than they ever have been before of bad bugs. We know that.   Michelle (18:55) Right. So we're talking about things like SIBO, you know, just that, because that ultimately it starts to kind of go from like the bowels all the way up.   Sarah Wilson (19:04) Yeah, exactly. So SIBO is small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. So it's overgrowth of good bugs in the small intestine. We also have what we call CFO or overgrowth of yeast in the small intestine because the immune system can't defend against the yeast. Then we have bad bugs and parasites, right? So this is where we hear an overgrowth of, I'll throw some names, like Pseudomonas, C. difficile, Clostridium species, E. coli. We have an overgrowth of bad bugs in that situation. And those can be   Michelle (19:11) Mm   Mm   Mm   Mm -hmm. Bye.   Mm   Sarah Wilson (19:34) upper but they can also be lower down. And so that's always what we're navigating is saying, okay, is there, if you have an overgrowth of good bacteria and you add more good bacteria, you're gonna be the person who feels awful on probiotics. You take them, you're gassy, you're distended, okay, in that, yeah.   Michelle (19:49) Right.   Unless, unless they're spore based.   Sarah Wilson (19:56) The SBOs are such an interesting conversation. They're such an interesting conversation because most of the research is coming out of two labs. And so I agree to some extent and I'm pensive. Yeah.   Michelle (19:59) Yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Okay. No, tell me, tell me. I want to hear it because, because I've always been told and I've always learned that spore -based probiotics, because, they, they bypass the small intestine, they go all the way down to, you know, the colon that, and then they, and then they flourish and they change the pH and they, they make it so that it's more hospitable for the good bacteria to grow and not the bad bacteria. A lot of times there's like die -off symptoms and it   Sarah Wilson (20:32) Exactly.   Michelle (20:36) kind of shifts, even though it's transient, it does shift the pH to create it where it's better for a healthier environment.   Sarah Wilson (20:47) Absolutely. So it's just like that bar graph, right? I always say if you give the environment for the good bugs to grow and there's not too many bad ones, then they will grow and take over. If you ever, I always tell people picture like an octopus or a cuttlefish, you know they change colors really rapidly? Our bacteria do the same thing. It's called quorum sensing. And so essentially if you create a hospitalable environment, you have enough mucus. This is the other thing, right? Bacteria need mucus.   Michelle (20:49) Mm   Yeah.   Yeah.   Mm -hmm. Yeah. Mm -hmm.   Mm The mucosal lining. Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (21:13) Exactly. So if you have that integrity, you add probiotics, and then you can change from a red environment, inflamed, the pH is off, there's bad bugs growing to a good environment. If you don't have that mucosal lining, if your immune system is too grumpy, or if you're in a situation where there's too many bad bugs, then you can't fix it by adding more.   Michelle (21:17) Mm -hmm.   Mm   Mm   Mm   Sarah Wilson (21:40) And so that's where we're using antibiotics and antimicrobial herbs and things like that to get that down. Going back to the SBOs, the thing I find really interesting is there's so many, I could like nerd out on this stuff all day long as you can tell, but there's so many factors, right? So when we talk about it bypasses the small intestine, what they mean in that situation is that all bugs are either acid sensitive, temperature sensitive,   Michelle (21:54) It's great stuff though.   Sarah Wilson (22:09) oxygen sensitive or yeah, I went through acid. Those are honestly the main ones. There's nitrogen sensitive, things like that, but those are the main ones. So what they're saying is the acid sensitivity means that they will get, and the temperature and oxygen sensitivity means they're gonna get lower down. But what we're seeing more and more and more is that people's stomach acid is off, their pH is off throughout their whole system. They have all kinds of,   Michelle (22:32) Mm   Sarah Wilson (22:37) you know, temperature sensitivity changes. And we have all kinds of changes in the hydrogen, methane and oxygen levels within our gastrointestinal tract. So what happens is we're not actually controlling where it's going. We're controlling at what environment it takes hold. And because there's so much dysfunction within the gastrointestinal tract in so many of our patients, I'm concerned that it actually could take hold.   and be present at higher levels of the gastrointestinal tract contributing to issues. And I've seen some... Yeah, that's BOs. Yeah.   Michelle (23:10) You mean the spore based ones, the spore based? you, because from what I understand, looking into it is that it won't activate until it gets to the large intestine.   Sarah Wilson (23:23) And that's based on the pH, the oxygen level and the temperature and all of those pieces.   Michelle (23:29) Okay, I see. So you're saying that it could be a different pH and everything will shift if things are so off, up, you know, higher. Got it.   Sarah Wilson (23:36) Exactly.   Exactly. And I've seen severe constipation in patients that take SBOs. It's like the only side effect I see, because you're right, there is a lot less bloating gas, those like three to five day battle between the good and the bad bugs. There's less of that for sure. But I have seen like enough patients that got me saying, okay, what's going on there that take it.   Michelle (23:47) Mm   Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Mm   Sarah Wilson (24:04) and immediately they're super constipated. So we actually use them a lot in diarrhea because of the benefit of that. But it's definitely a space I'm watching the research. It's super interesting. I think just like, so I was, my God, how many years ago now was I a probiotic researcher? least 10. It's a different world, right? Like how exactly, so.   Michelle (24:10) Mm -hmm.   Yeah.   Mm -hmm. yeah, they're learning so much so fast. Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (24:30) Exactly. So that's where I always say, you know, you're a good practitioner when you want to refund everyone every five years. You're like, what was I doing? So I think it's just an evolving conversation, but they definitely do have utility for sure. I think there's just, for me, just having been in a research environment, I know how controlled all of those situations are. And so then when they come out into our patient situations,   Michelle (24:35) Yeah.   Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (24:56) We just need to apply different lenses of thought to it.   Michelle (25:01) Or I mean, you can also add something like Trifola while they're doing that so that you're kind of like counteracting the constipation aspect or maybe some more fiber eventually when they're ready, you know, because sometimes too much of that when things are not great can exacerbate.   Sarah Wilson (25:17) Absolutely. And like we have studies now that are coming out to show that it's alarming. Over 50 % of people have what we call retained fecal matter, which is like constipation when they don't know constipation. And so I think there's so much that we're finding out and there's so much that's going on within the gut microbiome world that will be.   Again, I'm just always so curious to see where it goes and to see what happens with it. Because even I wrote a book in 2018, I guess. So I was writing in 2017 on insulin resistance and how that worked. And like I talked about in Cretins in a big section of that book. This was like pre -Ozempic days. And people at that point were like, what is she talking about? And now it's so accepted. And that's what six years later, right? They're just like, of course.   Michelle (26:08) Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (26:11) So, so much changes so quickly. And I think just staying on top of it is something I value so much. Like even today, I'm teaching an intensive on post -viral immunology for other practitioners, right? So, I'm always trying to navigate what do I see in practice? Because we see thousands of people in advanced women's health. And how is that showing up in the research? And how do we mesh those things and adapt with those things? Because things change so quickly.   Michelle (26:14) Yeah, for sure.   Mm   yeah, definitely. No, I agree. mean, everything just kind of out does itself. Something new comes along. what I find really fascinating is the gut brain relationship and the enteric nervous system and also the vagus nerve and how that impacts. It's kind of like the go between our brain and our gut. And, and also   Sarah Wilson (26:50) Yeah.   Michelle (27:01) the research on that where they've done like studies on meditators and like people in Tibet, Tibetan Buddhists, compared to people that are neighbors that eat the same food, they live in the same environment, but the gut microbiome of the meditators is so much more enriched. So it's kind of like a buy between, yes, we could work from the gut to the brain, then we can also work from the brain to the gut. And it's pretty fascinating.   Sarah Wilson (27:12) Yeah. Yeah.   Absolutely, and even to see the amount of research on people's levels and how that is directly related to yeast infections. We know that that whole gastrointestinal tract, vaginal microbiome, they are so, so, so closely tied to our nervous system and stress response. There's so much, I do.   Michelle (27:34) Mm   Mm That's interesting.   Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (27:52) stool testing on myself pretty frequently. I would say even more so than patients, I do it on my family. And it's so interesting to see how it shifts because again, diet and lifestyle can stay very similar. So it's like interesting what caused that shift, what caused that shift, how was stress involved with these things. it's, yeah, it's so fun. It's so fun.   Michelle (27:58) Yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Yeah, it's fascinating for sure. And then also, think about the gut microbiome, I think about the changes, I think about inflammation. I think about the additives we're eating and we're exposed to. mean, those are the biggest things because it feels like it's outside of our control. I mean, it kind of is until we know about it. It's, know, we go eat some places, we have no idea what they're adding and we know that   Sarah Wilson (28:33) Mm   Michelle (28:40) thickeners, I mean, there's so many things that can be added. We know that they can really throw off the gut microbiome and that throws off inflammation. So it's kind of like an unintended consequence because you're not, most of us don't know that unless we're doing what we're doing and learn about it.   Sarah Wilson (29:00) And then you're looking, is there SLS in this? Is this disrupting my microbiome?   Michelle (29:04) Yeah, but that's what it is. And that's why when people say, I guess, to simplify it is just don't eat processed food as much as, try to avoid it as much as possible. Because even like the good kind can impact your gut. mean, like good processed food, because of all of the excess ingredients that they add in there, that could really throw off your microbiome. That's why when people say just, I guess, like, if you want to say something that's more generalized, is more whole foods, foods that come from the   earth and also foods that are not sprayed with toxins, know, I mean, to try to avoid it. It does feel like an uphill battle.   Sarah Wilson (29:44) Patients are so overwhelmed, right? It's you're trying to eat whole foods and then you look and they're like, okay, well, what about genetically modified agents? And then what about what's being sprayed on them? And I always say that in of itself is a stress response, right? So we talk about stress and then we make food such a stress. And so I always say to people, the reality is that you could probably do better than you're doing right now.   Michelle (29:45) Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (30:12) and what feels reasonable, what doesn't feel overwhelming, right? And we'll actually sit there and go through and say, okay, I need you to eat a low insulin demand approach, because insulin is such a huge inflammatory compound. Insulin is the hormone that controls blood sugar, but it's like 75 plus percent of us are insulin resistant in today's day and age. So it's a huge, it's an epidemic. So I'm like, okay, don't eat a ton of carbohydrates,   Michelle (30:14) Mm   Yeah. Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (30:43) I hate good carbs, bad carbs, but berries, all of those highly colorful fruits and vegetables, don't count them. Eat away, enjoy your life. I'm not talking about that. We all know we shouldn't eat as much bread. Deep fried foods are not helping anyone, right? The starchy carbohydrates, rice, like that. We have to watch those things. We built a culture on creating addiction to carbohydrates. So we have to be careful of those things. But it's like, how can you add two servings of vegetables? If you can...   Michelle (30:52) Yeah.   Nope.   True.   Sarah Wilson (31:12) buy local and you know where they're coming from, rock on. Like it's summer here right now. There's farms that I know do not spray anything, but they cannot certify organic because they can't afford it. Okay, wonderful. I can go there, right? Buy frozen organic. It is pretty much the same price to buy frozen organic as it is to buy broccoli right now, right? And saves my life prepping it. It is picked right.   Michelle (31:26) Yeah.   Mm -hmm. 100%.   Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (31:41) It is frozen right away. There's benefits to it. So it's like, do that. Okay, then we look at our meat. How, or if you're eating meat or not, How is it being raised? Would you want to go visit that farm? Because if you would not feel good around that, then energetically that has an impact, right? What hormones are going into it? We look at those things. And the reality is, if you can't...   afford to make those choices wonderful. That happens. What do we do to feel the best about the options that we have in front of us? Fundamentally, I always say balance blood sugar and a nervous system that is stable and you're not having anxiety every time you put food in your mouth because you don't know what's in it. That is going to take us almost just as far as micromanaging every piece and every ingredient. Whole foods more often   eaten away that fills you up, that makes you feel good. And everything else from there is customizable. But I think I hear so many patients, they get so caught up in fresh, organic, grass fed, grass finished, researching the farm, and then they end up in McDonald's.   Michelle (32:57) Yeah, that's not good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (32:59) because they're so overwhelmed, right? They're like, I'm just hungry. And so I always say like a happy balance is always gonna be the goal.   Michelle (33:08) Yeah, no doubt, for sure.   Sarah Wilson (33:10) And your microbiome loves colors and there's not many of those at McDonald's, so. Exactly.   Michelle (33:14) Yeah, variety for sure. Yes, totally. And then you were talking about like symptoms even without a diagnosis,   Sarah Wilson (33:24) So the blood work is one piece, right? So even without a diagnosis, you can do complete blood count. You can do something called a C -reactive protein, which is a marker of gut inflammation, liver inflammation. You can do an arethrocytes sedimentation rate. These are blood markers. But I also say, if you are struggling with joint aches and pains, if you feel like you're just getting older, if you are dealing with brain fog, if you...   Michelle (33:26) Mm   Mm   Sarah Wilson (33:53) have pain with your periods that we have normalized so much as a society. If you have period poops, if you have PMS that is affecting your quality of life, like we have so many of these symptoms that we've been told, I'm just getting older, I have aches and pains, I'm just bloated and gassy, it's not a big deal, I just have brain fog, I'm losing my memory, right? I can't remember where I put my keys.   I'm dealing with like menstrual challenge. That is all inflammation based, all of it. And as someone I think who lives in this world all the time, it's so easy to forget what it feels like to feel crappy until you get hit. And I have two small children. I have a two and a five year old. And so we're sick all the time, right? Like it's just the reality, daycare, school, people get sick. And   It's so easy to just again, lose track of what good actually feels like. And it doesn't include those things, right? You should wake up in the morning feeling rested, unless you have a child who has nightmares about monkeys, which happened to me. Right? But you should be able to sustain that energy throughout the day without eating food. You shouldn't have to compromise your activity and your work schedule based on pain.   Michelle (35:05) Right.   Sarah Wilson (35:17) and energy levels and your menstrual cycle or your digestion. And so many people are living in that state where they are.   Michelle (35:22) Yeah.   And so when you do have people that come in with inflammation, what are some of the ways that you address that   Sarah Wilson (35:33) absolutely. So my belief structures, there's only five to seven causes of disease, right? So we go through blood sugar dysregulation and insulin resistance, the gut microbiome, immune dysregulation, we've got liver issues, we have nutrient deficiencies, the nervous system, and then we have the components of cellular energy production, or what we call our mitochondria, right? So these are the components of health. And at the end of every piece of that,   you're going to have a stress response and an inflammatory response, which is what most people are dealing with in today's day and age is they're struggling between that balance of stress response and inflammation. So my job is always going through those components and saying, which are the top two or three for you, right? If we're talking about microbiome issues and the immune system as two key pieces.   And then we say, okay, let's compliment that with the nervous system because we just talked about that. If those are someone's top three pieces, then first and foremost, we have to go through and say, what are the biggest obstacles? What are your gut symptoms? Does that suggest that you might have an overgrowth of methane species? Right? Does that, that tends to be constipation, lots of gas that doesn't smell great. Is it suggesting that you have hydrogen overgrowth? Right?   that's lots of gas that doesn't necessarily have a smell. We can go through, pick those apart. Do you have a history of parasites? Right, do you camp a lot? Those pieces, we're using antimicrobials in those situations to try to create some stability. We're trying to understand how that's gonna relate to blood sugar, et cetera. When it comes to looking at the immune system, there are key nutrients like vitamin D. If you don't have vitamin D,   at the right level, which most of us do not, that's a master controller of your immune system. So we need to have that in place. We also need to look at your viral history. So we know right now, research is showing that you can retain components of viruses for years. We've seen that people have reactivation of chronic viruses and those are directly affecting the lining of their uterus, they're directly affecting their ovaries.   Michelle (37:44) Mm   Sarah Wilson (37:55) and their whole pelvic health. So in that situation, we're saying, okay, what antivirals need to come into the mix? And what do we need, again, to look at from a holistic perspective? I know you've had so many people on here that talk about NAC and N -acetylcysteine and alpha -lipoic acid and CoQ10. And oftentimes what they're doing is just helping with those inflammatory cycles.   Michelle (38:22) Mm   Sarah Wilson (38:22) right, they're helping to restore balance to that inflammatory pathway. And then the nervous system comes in because that affects blood flow that affects your immune system's ability to do its job. And we say what works for you? Is that nerve nerves, right? That's where our valerian our passionflower, our zycephos come into the mix and are so beautiful. Is that going to be something where it's we're looking at meditation and walking?   and all of those pieces. that's really the approach I take, is I say, in those five to seven different causes that someone could have, what are the most important pieces for them? And then we dig into it at depth to say what components, whether that's using blood work, whether that's using functional testing, honestly, at this point, having seen as many patients as I've seen, sometimes it's insane. You're like, okay, I think we need anti -microbials.   some valerian and passion flower, and we need to correct the nutrient deficiencies that are present with respect to vitamin D and some of those antioxidants. We need to get enough protein, more colors, Bob's your uncle. But it's, I always say, health is so simple, and we have so much time and energy dedicated to making it really hard. And...   Michelle (39:31) Right.   Sarah Wilson (39:42) the more sophisticated I get, the more sophisticated the research gets, the more I go down rabbit holes, the more I come back to the same things. And I think there's so much peace in that too, to know that, yes, I have a lot of patients with very chronic health issues, with very significant imbalances, but the body wants to come back to those places and we just need to figure out which levers to pull to get it back to health.   Michelle (39:49) Right.   I love how you put that. It's true. It's just like, are the levers to pull, to try to help it do its job. what it wants to do really, it's like its purpose.   Sarah Wilson (40:24) Exactly. it's so, like sometimes you're pulling the same levers in rotation, right? You're like, okay, blood sugar, stress response, liver. And then you're like, inflammation, gut microbiome, stress response, blood sugar, liver. It's, you sometimes have to cycle back to those pieces. There's like the layers of the healing onion. So as we always say, but it's, there's so much simplicity that can be had within all of it. And I really want people to feel that because I think,   Michelle (40:28) Mm -hmm.   Right. Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (40:50) There's a lot of energy now being dedicated to feeling like health is gate kept and it's not, right? This is why we come on these podcasts. This is why we do these things. If anyone today says, I feel empowered, I can take action here. I'm gonna add more vegetables. I'm gonna add more colors. I'm gonna go for a walk after my meals, ideally in nature. I'm gonna look at what brings me joy.   Michelle (40:57) Yeah.   Sarah Wilson (41:17) and include more of that. I'm gonna work on my boundaries, I'm gonna correct my nutrient deficiencies, and I'm gonna look at my microbiome. You will get so far, so far in your health. And that to me is just, it's so beautiful.   Michelle (41:26) Yeah.   yeah, for sure. mean, it's really empowerment. So, well, this is great. You shared so much amazing information. I could definitely keep talking to you because there's just so much that we can keep unpacking. But if people are interested in working with you, want to find out more about you, how can they find you?   Sarah Wilson (41:53) Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you. know I was, these are always such loaded conversations because we start and it's like, do we go here? Do we go here? So exactly.   Michelle (42:00) I know. There's just a, a, branches out and it has, it starts to take a life of its own. And then I'm like, okay, well, we still can't keep going, going, going. at one point.   Sarah Wilson (42:11) I know totally. Yeah, so I, as I said, for anyone listening in Canada, I own Advanced Women's Health. So we have clinics across Ontario and BC and we're expanding. I have a whole team of practitioners that do clinical rounds every day and I work with all the time. For those of you in the US, I do have courses where I train naturopathic doctors. So if you like this approach and you want people who are in the US and beyond.   then you can always reach out to my team as well. Their email is just info at advancedwomenshealth .ca and they've got that list of practitioners. So in either situation, we can help you out. I also poke around on Instagram. I do not post on there as much as I should, but it's always a goal. And yeah, I'm just so happy to connect with the audience.   Michelle (42:52) Amazing. Well, Dr. Wilson, this was very informative and I love the fact that you do so much research and this is based on like real data and real information and you really understand it. Your mind tends to work that way, which is awesome because you have to find a career where your mind is really able to absorb that information and then apply it. And it sounds like you found a perfect.   career for what you do and you're passionate about it as well.   Sarah Wilson (43:20) Thank you. Yeah, no, I'm so fortunate. I love what I do. And like, I'm so fortunate that I get to build a team of people that begrudgingly love my brain. They're always on calls because we meet every day. So our team of practitioners meets every day and they're always asking questions and I'll spin out on something and I'll be like, welcome to the Ted Talk. Sorry, that just happened.   Michelle (43:31) No, it's very interesting.   Amazing.   That's great. Well, that's how you know you love it. That's how you know it.   Sarah Wilson (43:44) Yes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been such a joy. yeah, I just I love sharing this information. I'm happy to come back and share more anytime.   Michelle (43:55) Yes. So thank you so much for coming on.    

On today’s episode, Dr. Laurena White and Michelle discuss the importance of preparing the body for pregnancy, especially for women who have irregular menstrual cycles or reproductive health issues. Dr. White emphasizes the need for a holistic approach that combines traditional and Western medicine. She shares stories of women who were told they had premature ovarian failure but were able to conceive naturally with the right support. Dr. White also discusses the misconception of a 'geriatric pregnancy' at age 35 and the importance of making lifestyle changes to create a healthy environment for conception.   Episode Takeaways:   Integrative care and a holistic approach to healthcare are essential for providing comprehensive and effective treatment. Unexplained infertility requires thorough examinations and consideration of both male and female factors. Birth control can have long-lasting effects on the body and may require time for restoration before attempting to conceive. Preconception care is crucial for optimizing fertility and should include lifestyle changes and seeking the right practitioners. Finding the right practitioner who listens and takes a personalized approach is key to a successful fertility journey.  Preparing the body for pregnancy is crucial, especially for women with irregular menstrual cycles or reproductive health issues. A holistic approach that combines traditional and Western medicine can be beneficial in optimizing fertility. Making lifestyle changes, such as improving sleep, nutrition, and stress management, can create a healthy environment for conception.   Guest Bio:   Dr. White is obsessed with health, wellness, and most importantly...healing. In 2018, when she embarked on an entrepreneurial journey and centered her firm around an integrative womanist ethic of care, she had a vision that bonafide healing of chronic, complex health conditions ought to be more attainable, inclusive, and (yes)enjoyable. Within a few years of launch, she had grown a profitable, bootstrapped firm with a full-time team of one to a 15-person team in two additional locations in the Washington, DC metro area.    With over 20 years of service and experience in the field of women's health ranging from labor support doula to obstetrics/gynecology and reproductive endocrinology/infertility including acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine, she is a positive disruptor. As the Chief Operations Officer of The Eudaimonia Center, an integrative reproductive medicine and women’s health firm, she leads a team that facilitates the health, wellness, and healing of complex women’s health challenges including but not limited to uterine fibroids, endometriosis, polycystic ovarian syndrome, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, and fertility challenges without the use of unnecessary pharmaceutical drugs (including synthetic hormones and painkillers) and fruitlessly invasive surgical interventions. In a country whose healthcare system falls woefully short of addressing the comprehensive needs of “the least of these”, namely Black women and their children, she aims to revolutionize the industry one healing experience at a time by being fertile ground in a barren land.    While building a firm may have looked effortless from the outside, starting a business with no resources or funding quickly forced her to realize that early-stage entrepreneurship was anything but transparent. She began documenting her experiences and learnings while focusing on helping more women learn about integrative health, the womanist ethic of care, and the true meaning of healing. She has reimagined what comprehensive women’s healthcare could and should be.  As a result, she integrated her firm by forming a synergistic flow between conventional medicine and traditional medicine modalities, so the care women receive is not only transformative, but it’s also restorative.    Social media Facebook - The Eudaimonia Center  Instagram - @theeudaimoniacenter  LinkedIn - Laurena White, MD, MPH, DiplAc Twitter - @eu_daimonism  Website link - https://laurenawhite.com/ Podcast: https://womenshealthwisdomandwine.buzzsprout.com/     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Dr. White. I'm so excited to have you today.   Laurena White (00:03) Thank you so much, Michelle. glad to be   Michelle (00:06) So Lorena and I spoke on her podcast. She had me on her podcast, Women's Health, Wisdom and Wine. She loves wine and I do too. And she actually just came back from Paris. So I'm sure you've had some good wine there. And Lorena, if I may call you Lorena, Dr. Lorena, I feel like you're a friend, so I'm calling you Lorena. Yeah, so she's incredible. She has such an incredible story. when   Laurena White (00:20) Definitely.   Of course, yes. Yes, we're colleagues, yes.   Michelle (00:34) talked to her, met her the first time. I actually, before even meeting her, I took her class on fibroids and it was such a great class and I remember recognizing her and your story is so amazing. And I would love for you to share your story because I think it's fascinating. What I love about your story specifically is first of all, you've been to Cuba, which is freaking awesome. But then also the fact that you have   Laurena White (00:56) Yes.   Michelle (01:00) like a foot in both worlds of Western and Eastern medicine and really integrate those two. And also what I love about you is that have a different approach. You really look at people as a whole and really spend time to get to know them and listen to them. It's just, I if I can clone you, like, it would be awesome.   Laurena White (01:04) Yes.   Trust me, I'm working on it. I am trying to clothe myself because I really do feel like how we practice and how our firm works is how I feel and this isn't with no hubris, but how medicine should be. And I honestly believe that we are better together. And so often it's us versus them. And that's not just in medicine, but it's almost in everything. There's just these power dynamics that are not serving.   Michelle (01:31) Yes.   Laurena White (01:46) the people or the population that we desire to serve, they're trying to serve others' egos. And that's one of the things that frustrate me. That's why I integrated our firm, because I truly do believe in an integrative approach to care. And we have added a womanist ethic of care to that component that takes it even a notch further. And so the original question was kind of telling how I got started or how I got from there to here.   Michelle (01:51) Mm   You have to tell your story because it's so cool.   Laurena White (02:12) I'm gonna try to summarize it as quickly as possible. I always knew I wanted to be a physician. I thought I wanted to be a pediatrician. But once I got to my Peds rotation, I realized I love the children, but I could not stand their parents. And that wasn't going to end up with a good career for anybody nor happy families. And I didn't think I was interested in...   women's health from the OB -GYN perspective, just because I thought who wants to look at vaginas all day? Like that's just not seemed like something that I wanted to do. However, when I got to that rotation, I started with OB and life changed. Literally my life changed because from even before I helped deliver a baby, it was about, I had been exposed to women's health. had been involved with women's circles in my own family.   through vaginal steaming, I had been a doula, labor support doula, so I had been around that aspect, but I realized there's so much more to conception and childbirth, and that 10 months in between, there's so many things that can go wrong, and we don't even talk about those aspects. And so really being able to bear witness to that miracle of birth, I realized that the word miracle is exactly what that is, because we only see those perfect endings.   when we're on the outside, don't see the everything that goes on in between and what a lot of moms have to go through, not just to get pregnant, but to stay pregnant. And so really being able to bear witness to that miracle of birth, it brought tears to my eyes. And I started wearing goggles because my colleagues are like, you cry at every birth, suck it up. And I was like, and I, you know, I tried, I was like, why do I do this? I was like, why do I cry every time?   Michelle (03:52) I'd be the same.   Laurena White (03:56) But it's, mean, I'm a softy, I'm in love with love, and I think that, you know, mother -child relationship, you know, it's it's overpowering, it's overwhelming in terms of how intensely bonded that can be when it's healthy and when that whole process just unfolds right in front of your eyes from the time someone, you know, tells you, hey, I'm pregnant, or I think I'm pregnant, to the time, like, you're literally holding that baby in your hands, presenting them to their parent.   So it was amazing. And so by the time I got to my Gain rotation, I also realized, hey, this is so much deeper than I thought it would be. It's about education. It's about empowerment. It's about making sure people know their body parts. And not just with 12 and 13 year olds, but also with 41 and 42 year olds who have had children and still don't know where babies come from. And so I was like, I can be an educator as well through this process. And it   that was also empowering for me because I knew there was still work to be done. So in between those things, I worked for a federally qualified health center, loved my job, but it was burning me out. I was a sister, a friend, a transportation, a social worker, interpreter. The good thing that I do speak more than one language, so that helped. But it was just a lot for what was supposed to be a basically checkup appointment or an annual visit or.   you know, something like that, and it turned into a lot of other things. And when you're helping the indigent and the English as a second or fourth language, and those who just are either immigrants or underhoused or unhoused, I mean, it's just, it was just a lot. And as much as I, my personality doesn't have a switch off valve to say, okay, this is outside your lane.   it sees a person who needs help and it's like, okay, you're the one here and they're asking for you and they're sitting in front of you now. So do something. But I was quickly getting burnt out because there was just so much every single day that I was getting home just exhausted. Happy that I was able to do the things that I was able to do, but still just really, really exhausted and burnt out because there wasn't enough time for me, my family, or the other things, aspects of my life that were also important. And   After that, I was like, I also wanted to get out of Pennsylvania. And so I wound up working for the Surgeon General during the Obama administration. I was a women's health consultant there and one of the sweetest jobs I've ever had in life. That was after though, I came back from Cuba. I lived in Cuba for six years. And then I lived in Haiti for two years. And that's where I realized what kind of physician I wanted to be. So Cuba and Haiti back to Pennsylvania, then DC and...   When the administration changed, everything for me changed. I knew I could no longer stay in working in that administration the way that I had been. My job was not secure. Things were changing at a pace that wasn't healthy for me, wasn't healthy for my position, it wasn't healthy for my reputation. And so I realized, hey, it's either gonna, you're gonna either go back and get an MBA or you're going to open up your own firm and figure it out.   Going back to school, I'm a nerd and I love studying. I love all those things. So going back to school was not even a big deal for me. I had already gone back to school to become an acupuncture. So going back to school again to get an MBA was just par for the course for me. But I realized I wanted to do this and I knew knew how to take care of my clients, my patients. So I was gonna start there. And that's what I did in 2018. We opened up our own firm. I opened up my firm   started with me and three other part -time people and practitioners, and now we're up to 15, plus myself, and we have two locations, working on our third. So yeah, it's been a whirlwind. It's been, it's like all these good things. It didn't necessarily start off that way. Like the first three months when I opened the door, I was like, where are all the people? They say you build it and they'll come. And that is not how it works.   Michelle (07:39) It's amazing.   Yeah. Yeah.   Laurena White (07:57) You build it and you spend a lot of time looking at the window wondering is the electricity, know, is the phone jack working? You pick it up. Okay, there is a dial tone. So the phone does work The doors bolted shut like what is going on and It just is one of those things like you know building something from the ground up is just not the what you see in the movies There's a lot of heartbreak. There's a lot of other kind of stuff that goes into that but it never has been not rewarding and it definitely   built my character in ways that I didn't know I needed building. Patience is not one of my virtues, and so that definitely showed me, know, dig deeper and harder and into making the thing that I wanted to see come to fruition fully become what it is now. And it's growing.   Michelle (08:41) Awesome. And also, I mean, really based on your background, I imagine there's not a lot of places like yours.   Laurena White (08:48) that I know of. When we started, one of my mentors was in California and she was shutting down her, shuttering her whole office because she's like, it's too much work, know, between trying to do all the integrative aspects of things and then insurance. And it was wild. And so just when I was opening up, we had been talking for maybe three or four months and she's like, I can't do this anymore because it's just too much work. And I was thinking, know, in California where everything is so progressive and everybody is,   what I feel is already advanced and she's having issues. What is that going to mean for me? But I realized I believed in what we do, the work we do, how we do it, our approach. And I bet on myself and I still continue betting on myself because I don't believe that we're, you we got this far just for it to be a flop or a failure. I believe we're steadily growing and people are steady realizing that there are other options. Even if it's not us, there's something else out there.   And I think part of that is realizing that it doesn't have, you don't have to be stuck in the same Western medicine system, not being valued, not being seen, not being heard. And with us, you've seen, and valued. And I think everyone deserves that. And as people are starting to realize that they're becoming empowered and whether they choose to work with us or somebody else, they're realizing that they have other decisions that they can make and they don't have to be stuck in a rut.   with providers and practitioners that aren't taking care of   Michelle (10:12) I think that's huge because I think most people don't really think that they have an option or they just think they don't even know that anything else exists. so talk about that. Like what's the ideal way a patient should feel like when they come in, like what are the things that should be looked at? Cause I, from what I hear a lot is that people want to get like certain   worked on or more blood worked on, say, you know, their TSH is off and they want to do a full thyroid, there's a lot of pushback from their doctors or, you don't need that. this is fine. And then sometimes even other intuition, they're like, no, I feel like I need something. And then later on, they find out that intuition was right. They had like a hunch and you know, that's it's a real thing intuition, you know, so, so talk to, because I want people hearing this.   Laurena White (10:46) Mm Yeah.   Right.   Yeah.   Michelle (11:05) that are really on the journey, they're going through all of this. I want them to know like what they can have, what should be the quality of care that they should be receiving.   Laurena White (11:05) huh.   Absolutely. And I think that you hit the nail on the head is that, especially as women, we have that thing, whether you call it intuition or a feeling or whatever you want to call it, it's there. And a lot of times we ignore it because it doesn't fall in the parameters of what everyone else is saying or what the doctor told you or what your friends tell you or something else. But you're constantly being told, no, you're normal or you're fine or it's something else other than something that you know.   Michelle (11:44) It's like a dismissal. Yeah.   Laurena White (11:45) It'd be off. Yes, complete, yes, that's the word, dismissal. And that's where the womanist ethic of care comes into place, is that when you tell us there's something off and I can't pinpoint it based on my diagnostic skills, which I do take pride in, then it's like, okay, then let's figure it out together. What have you tried? What works? What doesn't work?   I'm not one for just running a bunch of tests either, just for the sake of running tests, but I also realized that with blood work, physicians primarily get reimbursed on the basic blood work. There are other blood work that is so expensive that is not covered by insurance and it's out of pocket. So they don't run those because they're not going to get reimbursed. Or they're looking at normal ranges. If it's between this and this, it's falling in the normal range, but they're not looking at ratios.   And so you're getting your blood work panel back and it says everything's in the normal range, but some of those ranges are not in the normal ratio. So when you're just looking at numbers and everything says normal and they're just saying, okay, everything's normal, but the ratios are off, that's an explanation for potentially some of the conditions or the symptoms that one is experiencing. But also are they even running the right tests? And if they're not running the right tests or the correct tests in order to make the accurate diagnosis,   they're going to continue telling you that there's nothing wrong. Everything's fine to the point of even hinting that it's in your head or you're making it up, which is also one of the things that really annoy me because when someone is telling you there's something wrong and it's not the first time and it's not the complaining Janeys, but someone who does the things and they, and you can see that they've been at this for years, months. Now's the time for me to listen because there's something that's clearly not being addressed.   Michelle (13:09) Mm   Laurena White (13:33) And that's again where the womanist ethic of care comes into place because if I don't have the answer, we're gonna seek and find it together. I do believe I'm a solution finder. I don't call myself a problem solver because who wants to chase problems? I don't. I wanna find solutions. Yes. Yeah. I mean, who wants to, you run away from problems. You don't run to them, but you run to solutions. And so when we're working together, talking about your symptoms, really asking the questions that we learned.   Michelle (13:42) Love that.   I love that though. Solution Finder. That's awesome.   Yes.   Laurena White (14:02) in acupuncture school that we never ask in Western medicine. We're talking about your sleep, your diet, when you eat, how you eat, your bowel movements, your urinary habits, your sleep, whether you dream, are you how to call all these idiosyncratic questions that are never asked in Western medicine, but they're more comprehensive because if you have trouble falling asleep or trouble staying asleep mean two completely different things. And when we just ask,   Michelle (14:30) Mm -hmm. Right.   Laurena White (14:31) How are your periods? And someone says, okay. Okay, regular, good, mean absolutely nothing to me because it tells me nothing about you. When I ask you how are you sleeping and you're saying, fine, I don't know what time you go to bed. I don't know what time you wake up. I don't know if you wake up three times in the middle of the night. I don't know if you're having hot sweats in the middle of the night. Are you dreaming? Are your dreams vivid? How many times are this happening per night? Some people think that if they're dreaming, it's a good thing. But when you're dreaming and you remember your dreams,   you might as well be awake. So you're not waking up well rested because your mind is still going. Your mind is still engaged, just like where my mind is engaged right now as I talk to you. So if you're remembering your dreams every single night and they're vivid, you're not well rested. But some people have been thinking, I have a dream every night or I have these very wild dreams. And they're thinking it's something that's a yes, yeah. And it's like, whoa, no, those vivid dreams are actually keeping you from getting a well night.   Michelle (15:20) Right, this is all Chinese medicine, yeah.   Laurena White (15:27) Well rested night sleep and yes, we all dream but for the most part You don't remember them and that means you've been in deep sleep and getting that well rested restorative sleep So they're just nuanced things like that that I find that we do differently and really help us be able to get to the healing aspect of things instead of the symptom chasing things and so When we really take time to ask the right questions to get the right answers. We're able to get results   with clients that have never been able to get results in any other capacity because we're looking at the root cause, the underlying condition, and not just the constellation of symptoms.   Michelle (16:07) For sure. And one of the things that I hear a lot is, you know, the unexplained infertility diagnosis. And I'm sure for you specifically, you're like, wait, because you look at it in so many different ways that you could probably pick up on things that the next OB will not be picking up on.   Laurena White (16:12) Yes. Yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Right. Yeah. Well, I unexplained infertility and we always like to say fertility challenges instead of infertility because that kind of borderlines on like you are sterile and I'm like, and it could be your ovaries. It could be your womb. It could be a lot of different things. So you're just having fertility challenges. And so when I look at unexplained, my thing is, OK, maybe it's unexplained under Western medicine guidelines. But when I look at things, I'm looking at OK.   Michelle (16:33) I know I don't like the word, the I word either.   Laurena White (16:51) Let's look at your period in all its four stages. Is it the follicular phase? Is it the luteal phase? Okay. Is it menstruation? Is it that second part of your follicular phase? Are you ovulating? And is your luteal phase short or long? And are you hot? Are you cold? Like all those different aspects. How healthy are they? So if I look at your cycle length and your cycle length is 21 days, you're probably not ovulating. And if you are ovulating, then your luteal phase is probably super short.   And even if you had a perfect product of conception, there's no place to land. So now we're dealing with, is it your ovaries or is it eaters? So, and then, you know, the other end of the spectrum, if your cycle length is maybe, let's say 45 days, and we're talking still consistent 45 days, then you're probably not ovulating until more toward like day 28, day 30, something like that. But everyone's telling you, you ovulate around day 14. So you're having sex around day 14 and there's no egg there.   you're not getting pregnant. So I think a lot of those things are just the easy things that we don't even, we take for granted. And then when there's irregularities, what is the irregularity and where is it coming from? And I am not an, I'll say it out loud, I'm not an advocate of birth control because it is a synthetic hormone and an endocrine disruptor. And when people are on birth control for years at a time, sometimes decades at a time, it messes up the whole entire menstrual cycle.   not just the menstrual bleeding part, the menstruation part, but the actual day one to day one component. And so some of that work that we're doing is trying to get the cycle to some level of regularity where the person knows, okay, you're ovulating now because why you're looking at your cervical mucus. Some people don't even have any cervical mucus or know when and how to check it. And so those are things that we don't even have to argue about. If you're seeing cervical mucus, now we can time some things because you are ovulating.   If you don't know how to look for those things, now it's my job to help you start ovulating. Or, wow, your cycle length is too short. Or your cycle length is too long. Or you have a blocked tube. All of these things we can work with, but it depends on what you already know about your cycle or don't know about your cycle. And I think unexplained infertility is one of those catch -all phrases because people don't take the time to do the proper examination.   not just physically, but to ask the right questions. And sometimes simply asking the right questions, I find out, your cycles are too short or you're ovulating early, and day 10. And if you're ovulating at day 10, the egg isn't mature enough. Even again, if there's perfect sperm, it's not, you know, it's not gonna be fertilized well enough to implant. Sometimes it's, you know, the uterine lining is too thin because the luteal phase is too short. And then my favorite, sometimes it's not the woman.   Sometimes it's her male partner who refuses to get checked, who refuses to go get a sperm analysis, who does or...   Michelle (19:38) Right. my God. Yes. Totally. Yes. And then I've even heard some some REs not even asking about the husband. I'm like, what? that. It's so bad. It is. It's it's so horrible. Yeah.   Laurena White (19:51) Which is criminal, yeah. To me, that's criminal. Yeah, it's worse than bad because now you have this woman jumping through all these hoops, getting pricked and prodded and poked and stabbed and all these things. And it's like, wait a minute, do we know what your partner's sperm analysis is? Has he had it? he knows his sperm as well. Based on what? Because he can ejaculate? Do you know the contents of   Michelle (20:18) Right, exactly.   Laurena White (20:20) Can you tell me? Can he tell me? Can you tell me what the semen concentration is? Can you tell me what the sperm count is? Can you tell me what the sperm shape is? Can you tell me what the mortality is? If he can tell me those four things every time he ejaculates, then we have no problem. The fact is he can't. And until you get an examination, none of us can. Somebody has to look at those things. And it could be, yes, he has great sperm count, but are they messed up from years   let's say smoking or over a simple thing is he's a avid bike rider and that will aspect sperm. But there things that we can do even with men that are easier than the things that we do with men. They can take their herbal blend and in two months, boom, sperm count is healthy because men make sperm at a different. Yeah, it's just definitely simpler. So it's not as invasive. doesn't require as much. Definitely changing some habits and making some lifestyle changes. But I   Michelle (20:49) Right. Exactly.   Right? Totally. Yeah. It's more simple, for sure.   Laurena White (21:18) that's my biggest pet peeve is that we are still not addressing male and female factor. And when they're both male and female factor issues, both of them need to be addressed. And a lot of times partners are just not willing to do that. And that can be diagnostic in terms of the healthiness of that relationship.   Michelle (21:29) absolutely.   Yes. And also, I mean, I love that you mentioned birth control because so many doctors will put people, including myself when I was younger, like on the birth control pill and be like, okay, when, when you're ready to get pregnant, you just get off and you just try. Right. It's just, no, it does not.   Laurena White (21:44) Mm -hmm.   No, it doesn't work that way. It doesn't work that way. And I wish it would, then we wouldn't have as many of these problems. You could just stay on the birth control pill till you were ready and boom, as soon as you stop taking your pill, everything, but it doesn't work that way. It hijacks your body's endocrine system. And so just because you stopped taking it, it has been a threshold. And I say, if you were on it for six years, it's going to take a lot of intensive work to clear that actual synthetic hormone from your body and   help your body realize what its endogenous hormones are supposed to be doing because they've been unemployed for the entire time that you're on birth control. Yeah. So it's just not that easy. that has not been, don't, people don't necessarily educate clients and their patients about that turnaround time. And they're misinformed. And unfortunately that misinformation leads to potentially some life, life changes and lifestyle changes that aren't taking place.   Michelle (22:26) It's true. Yeah. Yeah, it hasn't been used.   Laurena White (22:48) when they could and should be happening and unnecessary and undue harms when people are trying to conceive.   Michelle (22:56) Yeah, for sure. So for people who are trying to conceive, what are some of the steps they should take with doctors? how should they find the right practitioner? like it's a game changer when you find the right practitioner.   Laurena White (23:07) Yeah. Yeah, I think the first thing is being like, do some research, find out people who had some great relationships, but don't necessarily take that for, you know, the lock, sock and barrel because it could be, hey, this person liked them because they were in and out. They told them what to do, how to do it. And they just did it and they appreciated that. Some people want a little bit more handholding. They want to feel coddled. And I will say the IVF industry or   know, ART as an industry is not about a lot of soft and mushy, cuddly aspect. They're a machine. They get people in so they can get people out and, you know, cycle after cycle. And if your provider is just like, OK, you had had an unsuccessful cycle and they're like, OK, we'll try again next month or we can start again next month. That's a red flag. Your body's not ready. Your body is not ready for another cycle.   Michelle (24:00) my God, I'm so happy you're saying this. Thank you, Lauren. Honestly, that is so important.   Laurena White (24:03) It just is not going to happen. Yes.   Yes. And that's money. Your body is not ready. If you had, let's say you're you went through everything and in what's the month? be in August. August. was an unsuccessful, whether it be a transfer or retrieval. And they're like, OK, we'll try again in September. Your body is so not ready for that experience. And I believe the industry as a whole preys on women and their vulnerable vulnerability and their desperation.   For some women, yes, they undergo five, six cycles and they're successful. I am under the guise that after three cycles, especially with no time in between, enough time for restoration and ability to recover, it's not gonna happen. And does it happen? Yes, absolutely all the time. But like, that's not a guarantee. A lot of people think, I'm gonna do IVF and I'm guaranteed a baby. The answer is you're not. And it costs a lot of money for IVF.   So going back to that original question, what should you be doing? There's a thing called preconception care. How are you taking care of your body before you even start to try to get pregnant? Most people try to like, the moment they're trying, they're like, I'm gonna get healthy once I get pregnant. That is the worst time to start trying any new exercise routine, new dietary lifestyle change. That stuff happens before you get pregnant. That's the first thing.   And then it's the interconception care. What are you doing if you're planning on getting pregnant again? What are you doing during that time? And really being able to do some of these things. Like a lot of people will come to me and they're like, I'm having my transfer today. Can I come in and get an acupuncture treatment or I'm having my transfer today? And I've never seen them before. And my thing is absolutely. But keep in mind, these things work better and best as preconception care. When you've been seeing your acupuncturist, you've been seeing your massage therapist, you've been seeing   you know, sometimes you've been seeing your own mental health therapist before or leading up to trying to get pregnant. And not everybody has this luxury because they get pregnant by accident or it wasn't planned. But for those who are planning or even thinking about it, start working on yourself months ahead of time, at least three. And the older you are, probably six, because your body's doing different things. Your hormones are doing different things. And especially if your hormones or   menstrual cycle is not regular or short or there's some other type of aberration, whether it's long, short, irregular, have fibroids, endometriosis, PCOS, all those things. you need a lot more, a lot more time ahead of time in order to make sure that you're prepared for pregnancy. So I think really being able to work with a physician or a provider who is not afraid to work with a traditional medicine provider or team, because again,   We're doing a lot of the heavy lifting that they're not gonna do or they can't do or won't do because all they're gonna do is stick to a protocol. Your injections, it has to be on this day, this time, but the preparation for making sure that that goes well starts three to six months ahead of   Michelle (27:14) Yes. Amen. Cause I do, I do get people come in like a week before their transfers and while yes, it's going to help. Anything's going to help. It's still not the same. I wish I had more time, you know, but you know, what, can you do? Okay. It's like the times pass. We're here now. Like, let's just do what we can.   Laurena White (27:22) Yep. Right.   Not. Yes.   Yeah. Yeah, but that's how they've been educated. But that's how they've been educated. Well, acupuncture can work for transfer or retrieval. And so that's what they do. They find any acupuncturist on the corner or in their neighborhood or, you know, sometimes it's the acupuncturist in the facility that they, you know, they happen to be using for their, A or T or their IVF. And that's they do. Even if that person has no   Michelle (27:43) Mm   Yeah.   Laurena White (27:58) direct specialization in gynecology and obstetrics issues associated with balancing the things that may be off because of IVF. And I think a lot of times we forget that IVF is still a synthetic process. Yes, it's getting into a place, but you're being pumped with hormones at a level that are ungodly in terms of what your body produces normally. They are synthetic.   Michelle (28:15) Mm -hmm.   Laurena White (28:24) And so that's when a lot of women start being sad and depressed and bloating and crampy and angry and mood swings and all these things and water retention. And they're like, I'm just trying to get pregnant. And your body turns into a completely different entity that you are not familiar with because you're undergoing a process that is not natural. That is not in, especially in terms of hormone production that you're getting in ways that your body was never designed to experience.   And yes, it is a means to an end for some people, but there also needs to be a way to balance that so that while this aspect is happening, the Western medicine side has its place, but there also needs to be space created for the traditional medicine side that can balance some of those things while you're going forward toward accomplishing that goal of conception and healthy pregnancy.   Michelle (29:15) Yeah, for sure. also having a little, you know, when you were talking about a breather for your body and just really like supporting the liver, supporting the detoxification of those excess hormones. And because then you allow your body to kind of come back to that homeostasis, it's really important to do that. Our bodies are just not machines. I mean, it's important to respect that the process of our bodies and really what they're going through. And I think that   Laurena White (29:21) Yeah.   Yes.   Yep.   Michelle (29:44) That is something that needs to be thought of for sure. And another thing that drives me crazy, we were talking about the I word, is geriatric pregnancy at 35 years old. I see an eye roll. I knew you were going to feel the same way. It's absolutely ridiculous.   Laurena White (29:48) Wait.   Yeah.   Yes.   Again, we have the finite, yes, we have a finite amount of eggs. That's not that we're not gonna, I'm not gonna even begin to argue about that. But first we need to realize that the egg quality, some of those things were influenced by our moms and our grandmas. So when you were born, some of your eggs are, it was your grandma and your mom's fault. Like that's just, you got what they gave you. But then at 35, yes, things do change a little bit, but it's not a cliff. You're not like dropping off a cliff.   Michelle (30:15) Mm -hmm.   Laurena White (30:30) and everything is dried up and the whole geriatric pregnancy nomenclature is like, how are we doing this? How are we doing this to women and why? And why are you scaring them into thinking that at 35, if it's not done, wrap it up? Because we've seen people, especially with acupuncture, they're in their 50s. They're still menstruating. And I think if you're still menstruating, there's an egg in there somewhere. Again, what the quality is, I don't know.   Michelle (30:37) Just that word. It's like ridiculous. Yeah.   Mm -hmm.   Right. Yeah.   Laurena White (30:59) but there's an egg in there somewhere and are you ovulating? Not sure. But if you believe it and you know, we've done your AMH and we're looking at your FSH and hey, then, and so 52 has been my oldest client that has gotten using her own eggs. But yeah, and she had IVF too, but there were, you know, there were her own eggs and everything else, but we worked together because she needed the extra help that IVF was definitely not going to provide. And.   through that process of nurturing her, building up her yin, building up her kidney function, all those things, things that they're not even beginning to talk about in Western medicine. It's like, you need an egg donor. Based on what? Because she's 50? That's not enough. That is not an answer. Your age is just not enough. And egg quality is a thing. Egg count is a thing. All those are definitely aspects that need to be taken into consideration, but everybody's not born the same.   Michelle (31:29) Mm -hmm.   Right. Yeah.   Laurena White (31:54) So there's premature menopause where you're in your 40s or earlier than your 40s and yeah, you have no more eggs and you hit premature menopause. But that's also not always just because there's signs doesn't mean or symptoms doesn't mean that's the actual diagnosis. Said main client, she came in and they told us she was premature ovarian failure.   and she was hitting early menopause and I looked at her I was like, your constitution, even when she came to the office, I like, just don't think so. Yeah, was like, I mean, maybe, but I mean, cause it does exist, but her pulses and everything were vibrant. She was strong. mean, just constitutionally, she did not look that way. And I said, let's give it three months. And in three months, not only was she pregnant, she's gotten pregnant again after that.   Michelle (32:17) Mm   I know you could see it.   Mm -hmm.   Mm I had the same thing. I had similar stories. It's crazy. Yeah.   Laurena White (32:46) And so my thing, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, why give somebody a, you just told someone who's like, at that time she wasn't even early. She was maybe not even 40 yet. And they were like, yeah, you're premature ovarian failure. You're going to need an egg donor, all these things. I'm thinking, it just didn't resonate with me. And again, could have been 100 % wrong. But my thing is you just need to tweak the things that are in balance.   Michelle (33:02) Mm   Laurena White (33:11) And for her to have a baby and again, natural pregnancy, there was no IVF, there was no nothing. And in three months of working together, not only was she pregnant, we continue working together and she's pregnant again. And it's like, so how do you tell someone that? Yeah, you tell somebody that, but that messes with someone's psyche. Someone who's been planning and thinking, and now they think that they have received what I call a reproductive health death sentence.   Michelle (33:16) Mm Yeah.   Mm -hmm. Amazing. I love those stories.   for sure.   Laurena White (33:39) because not only are their dreams not gonna come true, now they have to reroute everything. And my thing is not only, is it not like, we got one. No, you've had two. And now she's like, I don't want another one. if, she's like, I know definitely working with you. If I don't want another one, I need to make sure my appointments are scheduled sporadically because she's like, you will get us pregnant. And so it's just one of those things like that frustrates me. the nomenclature that we use.   Michelle (33:40) Mm -hmm.   That is so funny.   Well, it's the power of suggestion, right? I mean, you're looking to an authority figure and you're getting this diagnosis and you're like, okay, well, I guess that's my, that's what it is. That's my future.   Laurena White (34:06) Yes, yes.   Mm -hmm. Yep.   That's what it is. Yeah. And it's, it's not only disempowering, but it's also setting someone else up to not believe in themselves, to not understand their bodies in a way that dispel that information or go and conjure. Cause if your doctor says it that, Hey, you're in premature ovarian failure. Why wouldn't you believe   And unfortunately it takes someone like me, our team to be like, I don't know. It could be true, but something's not matching up. And I think so often we get to that place at around 35 where doctors are just quick to say, okay, well, you're going to definitely have to have IVF or you're definitely going to have to have this, or you're definitely going to have to have an egg donor because your body won't do X, Y, Z anymore based on what? yes. Your AMH is a little higher, but that means we just have to work a little harder or a little longer.   Michelle (34:42) Right, exactly.   Laurena White (35:10) to counteract those natural processes of life by helping your body remember what it can do. And that does mean making some lifestyle changes. Yeah, because your body still can do it. It's just saying, hey, it's a lot harder now. But also, what are you willing to do? Are you willing to make lifestyle changes? Stop eating some of the things that you've been eating. Stop going some of the places that you've been doing. Start getting some sleep that you haven't been doing or getting. You may need to have...   Michelle (35:17) Ooh, I love that. I love that.   Yes.   Laurena White (35:39) you know, seven hours of sleep instead of trying to survive on four because you need that restoration for your body, for your cells, for your eggs, for your ovaries. So your body can do that work. You may need to eat different types of food, eat differently. And yeah, maybe you might need a massage or you might need something for stress relief or you might need some acupuncture and some herbal blood. You might need some of those things to help your body recalibrate.   So it knows and remembers what it is capable of doing. But staying on that same path, you're right. It might be a dead end, but there's also a way to turn that around. And when we do those things, anything is possible.   Michelle (36:17) just love that sentence that you help your body remember because it's true. Your body knows your body's so smart and intelligent. It was designed to self -heal. That's really at the core of Chinese medicine. Naturopathic medicine says it too. It's really knowing that even Western medicine, they call it homeostasis. We call it yin and yang balance. But ultimately you create that environment where your body comes back to itself.   Laurena White (36:26) Yep.   Yes.   Mm -hmm. Right.   Yes.   Michelle (36:45) And that's the beauty is that we do have resilient bodies and we have that ability. think that that's just remembering and having that hope that just because it's not showing up that way now or expressing itself that way now doesn't mean it's never going to is just making those shifts. think a big hurdle is really changing habits. People love their habits. They love their routines.   Laurena White (36:49) Yes.   Michelle (37:07) Even if it's not the healthiest, you know, and sometimes even the husbands, like, to try to get them to stop drinking as much or whatever, whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah.   Laurena White (37:08) Alright.   Yes. Or smoking or whatever, or bike riding, whatever, sitting in a sauna, you know, all those different things. Yes, they provide a benefit, but they're not providing the benefit that you need right now. And all of us have habits and all of those habits address some need that we have. Otherwise, they wouldn't be habits, the good ones and the bad ones. We all have vices and yeah, something sometimes they're vices that   Michelle (37:25) Yes.   Yes. Yep. Yeah, it's true.   Laurena White (37:40) air -quilt healthy vices, but sometimes they're vices that we know aren't good for us, but it feeds some type of initial need. But when it's time to do this type of work, which is the growing of a baby, the creation of a baby, we've got to make those shifts because now baby is requiring more of us than we require of ourselves. And I think that's the bottom line is that baby's going to get theirs first. And if you're not ready to create space for that baby to have a healthy environment,   Michelle (37:59) Yes.   Laurena White (38:07) maybe that's not your priority. And I think that's a lot of times when things aren't necessarily happening, it's that wake up call like, I need to take the step back. And some of these things that are self -serving now need that energy needs to go toward serving the baby in terms of not as growth and development, not just in utero, but preconception wise. And I think when people make those shifts, that's their first step in motherhood is doing something in service to   unborn baby, even preconception wise. And when they make that shift, it's like, it starts to, this is motherhood. You know, this is that service to something bigger, bigger than me, which is that pregnancy. And not just for that nine months, but before babies even conceived.   Michelle (38:54) Yeah, no doubt. Amazing. mean, I can talk to you for hours. just, I love the fact that you have, yeah, you have such a beautiful perspective and you really look at like every aspect and kind of like the core of a person, spirit wise, mental wise, physical wise, like in all different ways. And I think it's really cool to have the vantage point that you have of   Laurena White (38:58) Of course, I know I love talking to you.   Michelle (39:21) both worlds. I do believe that the two need to work together because there's benefits from every perspective. For people who want to find out more, you have an amazing podcast. So if they want to learn from you or if they might live close to you and can actually see you in person, how can people find   Laurena White (39:24) Absolutely.   Thank you.   Go to our website, larenawhite .com. That's my first and last name. And we do telehealth visits, so you don't even have to be in the DC metro area. We have a network of providers all around the country. So even if it's not us and maybe you're working with us in some virtual component or remote component, and we'll connect you with a provider in your area who does the work that we do, that we believe in, that we trust, and we coordinate care. So it won't necessarily   Michelle (40:06) Love that.   Laurena White (40:07) disjointed, we definitely talk about, you know, all the different aspects that we just talked about here, just so we're all on the same page and, you know, really working together with you. Because for me, it's more important that our clients receive what they need, even if it's not with us. And I'm not too proud to say like, hey, maybe somebody else can do this better or differently. And maybe I'm not everybody's cup of tea, but I do want everyone to get the things that they need.   Again, the podcast is also on our website and I'll make sure that, you know, the link goes in the show notes as well. And yeah, the ability to work with us, I teach, so I always have courses online as well for providers and clients alike. Sometimes providers want to get information because we do have, we address complex women's health. Yes, yeah, and   Michelle (40:53) True. And we do have a lot of providers listening to this podcast, by the way.   Laurena White (40:58) Because we, again, I have my own set of mentors who I feel like they have gotten, you know, I go to, I study, I love what I do. And I feel the only way to get better is continuing to do the thing that I do well better. Because if I can get great results in three months, what if I could get those same results in two and a half? Again, those two weeks mean something. And so really being able to not only open up my network of other providers who,   Michelle (41:12) Yes.   Laurena White (41:25) not necessarily are like me because there are not many, but if I can find an acupuncturist in your city or state who works with, know, Western Mediterranean providers who are open to that partnership, that's gold. That is gold. I find that it's, it's this challenging. Sometimes people don't, we'll work with everybody because I don't have any shame and I definitely have confidence in my own skill set and I will work with anyone.   Michelle (41:40) Yes, it is gold.   Laurena White (41:53) at the behest of what's best for our clients. And a lot of times other providers, because I do use traditional medicine for a lot, they think it's, I guess, threatening their practice or what they're, know, and in the bigger scheme of things, if we're helping our mutual client get their needs met, who cares who gets the credit? The point is, like, it's just, to me, it's one of those wasted energy aspects because   Michelle (42:12) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Totally. Totally.   Laurena White (42:21) We're not working for our own reputations. We're working for the benefit of the client. And if we're working together, we all win. And so that is my, that has been my, it's because it just, I don't know, to me it's all common sense, but I realized the longer I do this, common sense is just not that common. And there, we're still like, know, you know, egos and all the different other ills of the world.   Michelle (42:28) I love that. This is why I love you.   Laurena White (42:45) And that's the one thing I, you know, is just continue to doing the things and the work that I know works. And again, if you go to the website and the email, you'll be able to find us anywhere. And if we can't help you, then we'll know someone who can.   Michelle (42:57) thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your wisdom. And it was really important for me, for the listeners to hear really what you can get from a   care provider and what you should be getting from a healthcare provider. So thank you so much for coming on today.   Laurena White (43:15) And thank you for allowing me to be your guest. I appreciate it. You know, I love talking to you as well.    

I am thrilled to have one of my practitioner certification graduates and fellow acupuncturist, Dr. Melissa Levy. Dr. Levy is a practitioner with a passion for health, wellness, and fertility. Originally from the Philadelphia area, she ventured to Florida to pursue her education at the University of Tampa.   A personal health journey changed the course of Dr. Levy's life. Facing health issues that Western medicine couldn't address, she discovered holistic practitioners who listened and considered the full body as a unit. This holistic perspective helped her understand her body better and manage her hormonal imbalances through acupuncture. This transformative experience inspired her to become a Doctor of Acupuncture and Functional Medicine Practitioner.   Dr. Levy holds numerous certifications, including Certified Functional Medicine Practitioner, Certified Health Coach, and Certified Fertility Coach. As a board-certified diplomate of Oriental Medicine by NCCAOM and a licensed Acupuncture Physician in Florida, she founded the Integrative Wellness Center (IWC) in 2019. Her vision was to create a healing sanctuary for individuals, especially those who have lost hope. Her evidence-based practice model combines patient values, the best research evidence, and her clinical expertise to offer exceptional care. Initially, her onsite clinic in Jacksonville allowed her to help only local patients. Realizing the need to reach more people, she created online programs and coaching services to share her knowledge with individuals in different locations. Dr. Levy's goal is to provide the best comprehensive care to those who need it and are willing to make changes to better their health and lives. She aims to change how healthcare is delivered by providing exceptional, holistic care. Her mission extends beyond treatment; she strives to educate all her patients about the advantages of living a holistic life. Each encounter is an opportunity for her to positively impact her patients' lives, and she approaches this with unwavering dedication and care. Dr. Levy offers in-person appointments at her clinic in Jacksonville and provides virtual functional medicine consultations for Florida residents and functional health coaching for individuals everywhere.    Websites: https://www.healthbymelissa.com https://www.iwcjacksonville.com   Instagram: @dr.melissa_levy     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Melissa Levy. I'm so excited to have you on.   Melissa Levy (00:04) Yes, I'm so excited. I'm looking forward to this, being able to talk with you again and just dive into what I do and the world of fertility.   Michelle (00:12) Yes, and I'm so I was lucky enough to work with Dr. Melissa Levy and she was one of my students for my fertility practitioner course. I have to say, I just have to say this. Well, she's kind of stands on her own anyway. Yes, she got an extra certification, but she's like just a phenomenal like knows what she's doing type of practitioner and   I mean, you really like went into everything like no stone unturned. I just love your motivation, your passion. Like, and it was it's legit. I just want to say that.   Melissa Levy (00:46) Well, I think we even talked about this, like we're kind of just a lifetime learner. even though, you know, when I saw this course that you had, I was like, well, why not learn a little bit more? You know, I'm always diving into something, learning something new. And it just, the field that we're in, it's just kind of never ending of things you can learn and kind of better your education and further it. So it was great to just learn a little bit more and then the more you learn, the more you're open to and the more people you meet. So it was a great experience. So thank you.   Michelle (01:13) Yeah, and I feel like you were already well versed. I mean, you stand alone on your own. So it was just awesome working with you. But I would love for you to share your background and how you got into wanting to do this   Melissa Levy (01:26) Yeah, of course. I just remember being, I think most people have a similar story is like growing up, you're not really taught anything about your cycle. I had issues with my cycle. It's probably about 16 and I really didn't get my cycle yet. So I just remember going to the OB and they're saying, oh, all right, well, here's birth control. And I'm thinking in my head, great, now I'll be normal and...   you know, have a normal cycle. And so I didn't know any better and most people don't. So from the age of 16, I was on birth control to help regulate my cycle. And then also having ovarian cyst, I had surgery, I believe my junior year of high school for like a big ovarian cyst, which they thought was endometriosis. So, you know, I'm 16 and they're telling me, hey, you've endometriosis without even looking, you know, looking at anything, just throwing names out there, which I think is something that happens a   You know, people just kind of throw diagnoses and needs out there without really having an idea of exactly that's what it was. So being young thinking, I've endometriosis. What is this? You know, looking it up, being scared, and then getting surgery and them telling me it was a dermoid cyst, which is completely different, which was still kind of weird. But so that was just my first experience. And I just never had normal cycles really ever. And then going.   Michelle (02:32) Wow. Yeah.   Melissa Levy (02:41) into my college years. I was always an athlete, so I was personal trainer. I was working a lot, really stressed, a lot of stress on my body. So I just didn't feel good. I ended up getting Bell's palsy, which would not get better. And I was just on antibiotics and steroids for about a year or two years, just seeing tons of different doctors.   Michelle (03:00) wow.   Melissa Levy (03:03) not getting any answers. I think the thing that really frustrated me the most was going to a neurologist that I drove two hours to see and saw him for maybe five seconds. So it was just taking medicine, being on birth control, being on prednisone for that long, you feel terrible. So my gut health, my skin health, acne, hormones, nothing felt right. And I look back at pictures of myself from those years and   Michelle (03:14) Wow.   Melissa Levy (03:29) thinking I was healthy because I was a trainer and constantly working out and I had a lot of stress in my life as well. Looking back, I just looked unhealthy. I looked puffy and just all the medicines that they had me on, I didn't know any better until I got into the world of more holistic healing and learning more, being in that fitness and health. I was a personal trainer, group fitness instructor, yoga. I always wanted to help people and I think...   Michelle (03:42) with her.   Melissa Levy (03:54) this experience really helped me want to understand the body more and I know there's a better way of healing. So I was introduced into more like holistic health and acupuncture. And then from there, I just kind of fell in love with the medicine. when I started acupuncture school, as a student, you're able to get, you know, like $5 treatment. So we were getting treatment constantly and I was actually able to get off birth control and regulate my cycle, which took a little bit going off birth control. skin was...   a hot mess, probably because being on the antibiotics for so long, not even thinking twice about it. But I think within like the three months of just Chinese medicine, herbs, and getting acupuncture pretty consistently, I was finally able to get at least a regular cycle and, you know, just been working on it and haven't really had too many hormonal issues, you know, since then, but it's just a lot. You learn a lot about yourself, I think. And in a way, it's a good thing because then it brought me to where I'm   and I can have a lot of empathy for my patients and saying, hey, you I've been there, you know, I had the horrible migraines, I had the horrible skin and all things I just were told were normal. And last thing I'll say, I'll never forget. I remember I went, I was in acupuncture school. So I was learning a lot, as you know, you start learning things, you know, things that, you know, maybe aren't right that doctors sometimes may tell you. I remember I went to the OB and I was like, hey, you know,   I was told I had, I had an ultrasound done and the tech told me, Hey, it looks like you PCOS. Once again, just throwing things out there. And I was like, so I brought it up to my doctor. was like, I had an ultrasound. said it looked like I had something called PCOS. She's like, no, you don't. You just probably have endometriosis. take some Advil and birth control. And that was my conversation. I, I just left and I was like, what in the world? was because I knew better at that point. And I just left.   Michelle (05:21) Wow.   my god. Wow.   Yeah, so you could recognize, yeah, that wasn't cool.   Melissa Levy (05:43) Never going back to this doctor again and not saying everyone's like that. But I think for women, just, we're so, we're just, we're told that, you know, that's just normal, you know, having pain from menstrual cycles, having hormonal balances, all that stuff's normal. you know, Advil and birth control are the solutions to everything. the more I learn and especially getting into functional medicine now, you know, having the acupuncture practice for several years,   I've got more into functional medicine and I think that really connects the dots a lot for me too. I'm getting in hormone health and know, detoxification. So there's so much that as women that we're not even taught about our cycles or so I think just spreading the awareness, I think more women are wanting to know more and   Michelle (06:28) Yeah, for sure. I know one of the things that really struck me when I was going to school. Of course, I had a very similar situation as you or story where I was given birth control pills as well. I think our stories are actually very common. A lot of people go through this. Yeah, I was so many. I've had so many guests, just guests tell me this, but then I've also had patients come to me and say that they've been put on birth control for this, that and the other.   Melissa Levy (06:42) Really?   Michelle (06:54) that had nothing to do with like their actual like root cause. Yeah, it's crazy. It really is crazy. being told, you know, or believing that certain menstrual cycle irregularities are normal. I think that that was the biggest aha for me when I was going to school is that certain things that we thought were normal, like having diarrhea if you have your period or constipation before or breast tenderness   Melissa Levy (06:59) That's crazy.   Mm -hmm.   Michelle (07:20) PMS or even cramps that it's actually common. So we think it's normal, but it's actually not normal. So, so what are some of the things that kind of like you saw that you felt like, my God, like I can actually resolve   Melissa Levy (07:26) Yeah.   Yeah, I think a lot of it was just the mood stuff too. Like I would turn into like just a different person. Like along with that, just hormonal stuff like PMS, just all that stuff that we're told is just normal. I just like dread it heading my cycle all the time. And so I think it gets to a point where it might not always be perfect. know, things happen, whether it's stress induced, you know, if you're having a   month, you know, maybe some of those symptoms pop up and it's a way of your body telling you like, Hey, maybe, you know, check in with yourself, check in with your hormones. What's going on this month that some of these symptoms came back. And I think what you said is definitely true is I'll even do my interviews with my patients and I'll say, so how's your menstrual cycle? it's like perfect. It's normal. Okay, good. So what's that like? Tell me like, do you have PMS? yeah. Yeah. I always have PMS. had   My breasts hurt so bad. I get really moody the first day and cry. I'm like, you know, so that we're told that that's still normal, which is still a thing, but yeah.   Michelle (08:24) Mm   Yeah, it becomes almost like a background thing that's just like, oh, that's just that. Like it's normal, it's okay. And I think another thing too is just having that something I frequently see, oh, I have a perfect 28 day cycle like textbook, so everything's perfect. But then you start to really dig in like, when are you ovulating? You know, is it early or you know, nobody really knows because they'll either just do LH or not really look into   Melissa Levy (08:35) Yeah.   Michelle (08:59) if it's confirmed ovulation, because you could still get a bleed. So there's a lot of those little intricacies that you often don't find in mainstream medicine.   Melissa Levy (09:08) And I think that's another thing is like we're never taught to really understand our cycle. So when I am working with fertility patients, I'm saying, oh, are you ovulating every month? Yeah, on day 14. Okay. Are you checking your basal body temperature to see that rise in progesterone? No, no. Like I just, on day 14, I just ovulate. know, so it's, some people don't even understand that there are signs that our body tells   And it's not just day 14 that we ovulate, which could really impact fertility because then we could be missing our fertility windows. So there's just that lack of education and how we need to understand. we're never taught, I mean, no one ever taught me that. I had no idea until I got into this medicine that, day 14, or what is cervical mucus? Am I having that? And sometimes I ask women, do you have cervical mucus? Oh, I have no idea.   One of those things that were never, I mean, no one's taught me. And I just think there's not enough time, obviously, in appointments and with your regular OB. So I think that definitely impacts fertility for sure.   Michelle (10:05) Yeah, I often find too that people don't even really know much about their blood because they use tampons the whole time. That's another thing that I often talk about because it is, first of all, I don't love shoving anything up there. When your body's trying to release, you're basically putting a stopper in a sense. I mean, of course it doesn't stop, it absorbs, but still it's not quite the same.   Melissa Levy (10:12) Mmm, yeah.   Yeah.   Michelle (10:29) as really letting it out and letting it flow and letting that gravitational pull release, whatever, not stagnate it. But if you have to, if you must, I'm not saying everything's 100%, but seeing what the blood looks like actually can tell you so much about your period or tell your acupuncture so much, but even you, there's a lot of information out   Melissa Levy (10:36) Yeah, of course.   Of course, mean, once again, lot of my patients, unless they've been coming to me for a while, they know to look. Otherwise they're like, you said, I have no idea. I use a tampon. Are there clots? I have no idea. know, it's those things that, know, until, unless you've had acupuncture, you're probably not looking for it. And it tells us.   a lot. Our body gives us these signs and symptoms, the tongue, the pulse, the color of the nails, the skin. So all those things give us lot of information, especially the blood. What does it look like? How many days are you bleeding? Are you clots? it spotting? Are you bleeding a lot? Little, is it scanty? So definitely that's a great point. And same thing with the tampons. It's a really good point about stopping and not stagnating the blood.   Michelle (11:34) Yeah. And I think that because our life is so busy, it's like, you know, it's almost like too busy and really kind of, it's important to allow yourself that rest if you can, with the menstrual cycle. I think that we don't really get that accommodation often just in the world. But yeah, you know, so you see a lot of those kinds of things just from asking people questions and how did you decide you wanted to work with fertility? What was your   your initial pull.   Melissa Levy (11:59) Yeah, so I was.   pretty much a general seeing a little bit of everything. And I still do, but I think women's health is something that I've always had that love for just because there is such a lack of it and such a need for it. And then I think once I had my son, it kind of gave me that extra like fuel and that like just to learn more and more to, because it's such an amazing love to be a mom. And I want to be able just to give that to as many people and help as many women as I can. So I think that is the thing that really kind   pushed it to kind of dive all into fertility. What all can I learn? How many people can I help? And what is going on? And why is our fertility issues seem like it's kind of becoming more common. And it's one of those things where like cycle issues are an issue or they're prevalent. But now it seems like same thing fertility. It's just like, yeah, I'm having trouble getting pregnant. So it seems one of those things that's just becoming a normal common thing, which I think is sad.   Michelle (12:51) Yeah, yeah, for sure. What are some of the things that you see just clinically? Like what are some of the things that you notice that might be contributing to people having trouble conceiving?   Melissa Levy (13:03) Yeah, definitely. So I see stress, definitely, as you probably know. know, we've been, acupuncture has been saying for thousands and thousands of years, the connection between our uterus and our shin, which is our mind. So most women, we have a lot of responsibility.   Michelle (13:06) Mm -hmm.   Right, and just if people don't know, the heart houses the mind. So the heart houses Shen, which is kind of like the spiritual aspect. Well, spirit, mind, combined.   Melissa Levy (13:26) Mm -hmm. Yeah, and it's so we've known this for about 3 ,500 years or more. But I think nowadays women are living in a more stressful environment. There's so many responsibilities that we have. Some women have multiple kids already and they're juggling work and family and.   just the pressure. So there's definitely a lot more stress. And if your body's in that fight or flight, you know, it's not going to prioritize, you know, reproduction. If your body thinks, my gosh, I'm in immediate danger. Your body's not like, okay, well it's great time to get pregnant. So I think definitely stress is something I see. I see gut health definitely. you know, so many things come down to our gut and they say, you know, they talk about, you know, our   Michelle (13:51) Yes.   I want to talk about that. That's a good, yeah, it's important.   Melissa Levy (14:10) hormones or our body kind of being like that bathtub analogy where, you know, our gut is kind of like that sewer line kind of taking everything out. And if things are clogged up and backed up due to underlying gut infections, which I see very common and, you know, from a Chinese medicine perspective, we look at that as the dampness, the spleen. So the other thing I find so cool and interesting is, you know, Chinese medicine has been talking about all this stuff for 3500 years. And then when you learn like more of the conventional and   functional medicine, it's the same stuff, you know, just in different terminology. So gut health is so important for fertility. And then from a Chinese medicine perspective, we talk about the spleen and the stomach, and it has a huge relationship to our fertility and our overall health. So that's deficient. And we've known that forever. So it's one of those things where I think gut health is so common and such a big topic right now. But it's not a new thing. I think it's something that we've known for so long,   Michelle (14:53) Yeah.   Melissa Levy (15:04) Now we're recognizing, wow, our gut is really, important. And so I think that's huge.   Michelle (15:10) for sure. I will say too, like the gut mind connection, also that's spleen and stomach, they govern thoughts. So literally our thoughts can impact our digestion. Like if there are stressful thoughts, overwork, overworrying, that can impact our digestion. But now they're seeing it's fascinating because I've been researching it, the enteric system, which is your gut nervous system. And then the CNS, which is essential nervous system, which is connected to the brain.   Melissa Levy (15:17) Mm -hmm.   Mm -hmm.   Michelle (15:36) And so how your thoughts can impact your via the vagus nerve, like there's this back and forth bi -directional communication. And it's fascinating how like Chinese medicine has been saying this forever. And now we're like literally seeing that they're seeing that people with certain types of mental disorders have a different gut microbiome than...   Melissa Levy (15:49) I know.   Mm -hmm, so interesting.   Michelle (16:00) It's fascinating. And then also they're saying that people that meditate for a long time have a different gut microbiome that's more diverse and more rich, enriched.   Melissa Levy (16:10) Yeah, I mean, our mind is, I you talk about that so much, and it's like, how much can we stress it? It plays a big role in, it's sometimes not something that's easy to overcome, and it takes sometimes time to maybe make some lifestyle changes or be able to do things that, sometimes you obviously can't change your environment around you if it's situational, but do things for your body that can kind of offset some of that stress. And then also, working with the gut.   Michelle (16:34) Yes.   Melissa Levy (16:36) going to be really important. it's kind of like that vicious cycle of, if your guts impaired, then it can affect your mind and your mind is going to affect your gut. So it kind of just rotates through. So, you know, when we talk about holistic medicine, we're talking about not just singling in on one thing. We're looking at everything. We're looking at the gut, right? Because if you just want one, you know, you're forgetting about everything else and everything is so connected. So you have to look at everything.   Michelle (16:54) Yes. Yeah.   It is, without a doubt. It's a, cause you were just mentioning two like major things, which is stress and then the gut. But those things are interconnected. They're like pieces of a puzzle. And that's, that's really the beauty I think of Chinese medicine is that, and also functional medicine is that it looks at things holistically, like in all the different parts. And I love that you also do functional medicine and testing. And because I think it's really important to really look beneath the hood.   and see what does your gut microbiome look like. So what could people get from like say a gut testing?   Melissa Levy (17:37) so much. So your whole gut microbiome, can tell us so much. So what I see a lot is I'll have a patient come in and they'll say, hey, you know, I'm not feeling good. My hormones are a mess. I can't get pregnant, but my blood work, everything looks fine. So then, you know, I look at it. Yes, everything looks fine. Yeah. And then as an acupuncturist, we take two seconds. We look at their tongue and pulse and we can say, whoa, there's definitely a lot going on. And   Michelle (17:53) So then they get the unexplained infertility diagnosis, right? And then they come to you.   Melissa Levy (18:04) I like to order things like the GI map, which definitely is my favorite test by far, because it doesn't just say yes or no, you have something. It will give you the value. So it's qualitative PCR. So it looks at all the gut microbiomes, looks at parasites. It looks at H. pylori, which is so common. Yeah, so our gut microbiome. And it's not even like looking at...   know, what can we do to fix it? So sometimes I've had patients, looks at beta glucuronidase. It looks at calprotectin levels. it looks at so many different things to see if there's any gut inflammation in the body. is there dysbiosis? Is there maldigestion? Maybe you're not absorbing all the nutrients. So there's definitely a lot. And, if people even have cycle issues, I've had patients who have irregular cycles and we don't do anything else, but do a GI map and heal the gut. And their cycle regulates by itself on that. So there's so   Michelle (18:53) That's amazing.   Melissa Levy (18:54) much if you have someone that can actually read the GI map and knows how to understand it and what the patterns are, it is so beneficial. So I really love the GI map. It could tell us so much about the gut.   Michelle (19:04) Amazing. And so what are some of the things or implementations and just to kind of give us examples of different conditions. And clearly this is not a one size fits all, which is why you have to test. Cause you could see like what's going on specific to the patient.   Melissa Levy (19:10) Yeah.   Of course. Yeah, exactly.   Yeah, so I mean, I would say some things that I see a lot on the, just on the GI map, for example, like I'll see H. pylori a lot. And then with H. pylori, you'll see things like strep and staph infections as well in the gut. And what that does a lot of times is cause hypochlorhydrial low stomach acid, which is sometimes called things like parasites. You're not killing off things if you have low stomach acid and then maldigestion issues. So just doing things like mindful eating. So taking time and chewing your food, digestive.   enzymes are really important. And then I love antimicrobials like olive leaf and oregano. They're really great. Olive leaf is antioxidant. It's antimicrobial, antiparasitic, anti -yeast. So that's something I use a lot with my patients that have any type of dysbiosis or overgrowth or opportunistic growth in their GI map.   Michelle (20:08) Have you heard of Mastic for... Yeah. Rachael.   Melissa Levy (20:10) Yeah, mastectomy. Yes, that's really common. And usually if you have, it depends like what bacteria or overgrowth you have. For example, like H. pylori typically means at least like three types of urge to kill because it is very stubborn. So usually using mastectomy, leaf, oregano, black cumin seed oil is amazing. And that is good against H. pylori. It also helps regulate blood sugar, which is another huge thing I see with fertility issues is blood sugar regulation.   That's another thing that can affect our cortisol levels and our hormones. So I put a lot of people on black cumin seed oil as well, and that's antioxidant as well. So those are things that I definitely recommend for things, but it really depends on what bacteria, what overgrowth, what patterns you're showing. But just common things I see is like hypochloridia, low stomach acid. I see a lot of like dysbiosis, leaky gut, and then really just taking the measured measures and really just putting it into phases   what can we do, remove the gut infections and then build up that gut wall and build up that diverse microbiome again. So it takes time. It's not something that happens overnight. But then I also think looking at why, why do we have this in the first place? Why do we have these gut infections? Why is it stress? it our diet, environmental things as well?   Michelle (21:19) Right, right.   Yeah, you think of like Sleen Yang deficiency because the fire, know, that digestive fire really is in Ayurvedic medicine, Agni, fire is really what kind of kills off all of those opportunistic bacteria and infections. But if we don't have that digestive fire, all the things that we learn about don't eat ice cream, don't have ice cold drinks, because what you're doing is you're actually diluting that fire.   Melissa Levy (21:28) Yeah, exactly.   Mm -hmm. Yeah.   Yeah, no, I love that. never thought about that as like the that looking at that as like the stomach acid and that's such a great, great way to look at that. And that's the thing I always come back and find these awesome like relationships between Chinese medicine and conventional or functional medicine. It's like, it's all the same stuff. We just called it different things in a sense. it's, and now that we've all this research that shows and validates everything we've known for a long time. So I do like, you know, combining the two of those in such a great.   Michelle (22:06) Yeah. Yes.   Melissa Levy (22:17) great practice to be able to do   Michelle (22:18) Yeah, no doubt. when it comes to certain conditions, have you had people where you suggested, okay, you you'd need antibiotics for this because it is kind of like really strong where they sometimes they need a stronger one. And then with that kind of help to navigate and kind of work it out with probiotics.   Melissa Levy (22:38) Yeah, so I haven't had to really refer out for any antibiotics because most herbs and supplements usually are. There's research that shows that they are pretty good at eradicating most things and they have multiple functions and a more broad spectrum. But then, yeah, then adding in the probiotics and different types like espilarity is really good at helping with H. pylori and then doing, that's another thing I love about the GI map is it'll let you know like what's overgrown, what's deficient. So let's say you're a   Michelle (22:49) Mm -hmm.   Mm   Melissa Levy (23:04) huge overgrowth of lactobacillus because of maybe hypochondria, right? You're not breaking down the food, so then it starts fermenting and you get that overgrowth patterns, which we see a lot. Then you probably might not want to take lactobacillus probiotic. You probably want to do something a little bit more diverse.   Michelle (23:22) Right, or maybe a spore -based, right? A spore -based.   Melissa Levy (23:24) Yeah, or like a school -based probiotic, which are getting more popular now. But then another thing I see a lot too, which I've been seeing a lot more recently is there's something called acromantia. And I see a lot of people that have none detected at all in their gut. And that's a really good thing. And that helps with our gut mucosal lining. And also they show that people have low acromantia, have more things like insulin resistance and obesity. And that's something I keep seeing a lot is there's...   Michelle (23:38) wow.   Wow.   Melissa Levy (23:52) like zero detected in the gut.   Michelle (23:53) Wow, that's so interesting. You know, I have learned a lot that some of the ingredients that we see in processed foods actually shift the gut microbiome dramatically. And I wonder, I mean, if it's like that or toxins that we're exposed to, I mean, there are things that are really literally like we don't even realize have a role or play a role in our   Melissa Levy (24:04) Yeah, I believe it.   Yeah. And I think another thing is like we, that I see a lot too, is we get into like routines of food and we'll eat the same food over and over again. And I remember like Chinese medicine school, they talk about that. They say your body doesn't want to eat the same thing over and over again, like mix it up. Don't eat, you know, chicken and broccoli for every, you know, every lunch the whole week, because your body wants that diversity. And now we see that with the gut microbiome is like the more diverse you eat, the more different foods you're eating, the more diverse your gut microbiome. You don't want to keep eating.   Michelle (24:34) Yeah, it's   Melissa Levy (24:44) the same seven foods all week long, you and I know some people kind of get into that routine of things is that's all they eat.   Michelle (24:48) Yes.   Right, and they talk about eating for seasons too, because during that season, whatever that weather or the climate, your body's reacting and what will grow around you, the food that grows typically is there to balance that   Melissa Levy (24:54) yeah.   Mm -hmm. Yeah, like the seasons and that's something I mean, I think a lot of people don't do as well as eating up the seasons and it's one of the things we don't think about.   Michelle (25:06) fascinating.   you don't think about it because you don't even know because everything gets shipped from everywhere. So you're like, I don't know what's growing now, like here, you know, and I think that that that's like another thing that that and also the endocrine disruptors, all these things that you have to do a little more homework for, but it's not as intimidating as it originally sounds. It seems a lot worse. This is actually why I will say worth hiring a fertility coach.   because you have a lot of that extra time, like all of that is done for you. And, you know, that's the benefit.   Melissa Levy (25:44) Yeah, for sure. And I also think, like everything's so individualized too. Like what might be good for one person, you know, isn't the main focus that someone else needs. There's so much and it can definitely be overwhelming. Like when you start to think about it, like detoxification and basal body temperature and ovulation, the food, it's like, sometimes that stresses people out and it's like, we don't want this to be stressful. And I also have had patients that'd be like,   Michelle (26:00) Yeah. Yeah.   Melissa Levy (26:07) you know, they're like, well, this person get pregnant and they're not eating, you know, super, super healthy, but everyone's bodies are different. You know, we have epigenetics and different stress and everyone's bodies can handle things differently and like that toxic load. And so it's hard to compare yourself to someone else, which is never a good thing to   Michelle (26:14) Right. Yeah.   It's true.   no, absolutely. somebody might be less tolerant for one thing, but more tolerant for another. And that might be completely opposite from the next person. So you just never know. You really need to like honor your own like body's personality type, I like to kind of say, because it has its own signature, its own personality. Like everything is unique, you know, even though we have the same makeup, you know, we all have like the same organs   Melissa Levy (26:34) Yeah, exactly.   Yeah.   Exactly.   Michelle (26:53) of but each person responds differently really to food, environment. I love the saying, one man's   is another man's poison, it's could be something incredibly healthy, but one person could be allergic to it and have a horrible reaction to   Melissa Levy (27:02) yeah.   Yeah, exactly. even going, I always go back to Chinese medicine, but no, it's like food therapy and you know, I have patients come in and they're like, I look at their tongue and pulse and I'm like, well, you shouldn't be eating these foods. They're like, yeah, but they're so healthy, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, they are healthy foods, but not healthy for you at this time of what you have going on in your body. If you've got a heat and inflammation and you're eating spicy, hot, warming foods, you're going to feel a little worse, right? Versus someone who's maybe a little bit more deficient.   Michelle (27:35) bright.   Melissa Levy (27:37) and really needs more of that warming food. it always comes down to individuality, whereas everything similar is yes, we want to make sure we have a good healthy gut and blood flow and mind, but everyone's situation is going to be a little   Michelle (27:50) totally. Like it makes me think of like the somebody who's really thin and like super cold all the time, but all they want to eat is raw foods and salads and like juice. You know, all of that has such a cold nature. You're just exacerbating like the symptoms and making it worse.   Melissa Levy (28:06) yeah. Yeah. It's not as people don't want to hear that. I'm like, well, stop juicing. And I'm like, well, it's so wealthy. going eat a little bit more soups in it. And it's not like you can ever do it, but it's all about balance. And I think, you know, things always come back to balance. And we live in a world now where everything's such an extreme, we're either completely vegan or completely keto or completely, you know, one thing and it's, we're working out so hard and won't do anything or we're not working out at all. So it's how can you find that balance   Michelle (28:17) Yes.   Right, yeah.   Melissa Levy (28:34) eating a whole diet and maybe doing more yin or calm or exercises during certain part of the cycle and then doing more intense if you want. everything comes back to balance, which is something I think is hard.   Michelle (28:47) Yeah, no doubt. But it's an art. then once you figure it out, because I think that we're primed for it, we're designed for balance, our bodies know, and our bodies communicate with us when things are out of balance. If we're too hot to want to cool down and vice versa. So it knows what to do. It's always communicating. Sometimes we want to ignore that communication. Over time, we stop hearing it, but it's kind   Melissa Levy (29:03) We have.   Michelle (29:11) coming back to it is a lot easier than I think a lot of people think because we're primed for it. We're designed to be connected to that. So I know that you work with a lot of people online. So you're able to basically have consultations with people and do testing of all kinds, like different functional testing based on that either customize, but also that you have a program for people who may not commit to like   Melissa Levy (29:35) yeah.   Michelle (29:37) a one -to -one, but they can also just take your course as   Melissa Levy (29:41) Yeah, of course. So, yeah, so I wanted to try to make a course that was like great for like good for anyone, right? So it's easy to understand, but it kind of covers a little bit of everything. A lot of education, like I said, a lot of it is sometimes women don't understand their cycles or even know when they're ovulating. So there's modules that talk about cycle education. How can we, you know, increase our sperm or egg qualities to talk about the man and the woman talking   functional tests. So if you're like, hey, I want to get some testing, but I don't want to work with someone or I don't know anyone or my doctor won't run these, you can go online to our Rupa store and just put in your own order. You know, I always recommend obviously going over with it with a doctor, but I give you the option, the option of like functional ranges and the standard ranges, which are going to be different. Functional ranges are like optimal where we want you to really be. And we talk about yoga, mindfulness.   supplements. So we talk about a lot in the program. It's self -paced, which is so nice. So had people say, I love it because I can go back and listen to it over and over and over again. And so it was a really fun to make and I love being able to provide that information to people.   Michelle (30:50) Awesome. And I actually got to see behind the scenes, look at it and it is really, really very thorough. It has a lot of information, really, really well done. I have to say, I really admire you as a practitioner. think you are amazing at your craft, like truly. Really so honored to have been able to work with you and like get to know you, but you really are amazing at what you do. I think that part of it   Melissa Levy (30:58) Thank you.   Michelle (31:15) just being really passionate, but also having that drive to keep learning and learning and learning. And I think that that's what keeps us going as practitioners.   Melissa Levy (31:23) Yeah, definitely. thank you. So sweet. Yeah. We love what you do. You just want to keep learning and it's fun.   Michelle (31:30) It is fun, right? Well, that's what you want to find. You want to find a coach or has fun doing what they're doing because that's that's ultimately it's a good sign that they love what they do and they're good at it. So, Melissa, such a pleasure having you. If people want to find you, how can they find you?   Melissa Levy (31:37) Yeah.   Yeah, of   Yes, thank   So I actually have a clinic in Jacksonville. Then I also work online with people with Health by Melissa .com or Integrative Wellness Center of Jacksonville .com. do virtual and in -person visits.   Michelle (32:01) Awesome. Melissa, thank you so much for coming on. was such a pleasure talking to   Melissa Levy (32:04) Yes, thank you. Thank you.