Joanna Cherry and Alison Payne

Our Scottish special got people talking. So, we thought we'd keep the conversation going.Our conversation with Joanna Cherry KC and Alison Payne left us with plenty to chew over. Not least why the SNP has seemingly avoided paying what Alison called the 'wages of government', despite the decline in Scotland's public services. And whether any of the political parties are offering a vision for Scotland's future rather than simply promising to manage things a bit better.But what really got us talking was the lasting division left by the independence referendum. More than a decade on, the fault lines are still there. And that's where this conversation moves beyond Scottish politics and into the very heart of Fearless Diversity. How do we lead, work, and live alongside people with whom we fundamentally disagree? What does it take to repair relationships after a rupture? And why does how we treat one another matter just as much as what we believe?From political tribalism to fractured leadership teams, Rachel and Simon explore what it takes to work across profound disagreement, why impartiality is different from sitting on the fence, and the importance of rupture and repair. Because whether you're leading a country, a community, or an organisation, avoiding the difficult stuff doesn't make it disappear.There's also some homesickness for Edinburgh, a spirited disagreement about Scottish vocabulary and a rather unfortunate mangling of the First Minister's name.Fearless Diversity. Honest conversations about the things that divide us, and what it takes to work together despite them.Listen now and join the conversation.For more about Rachel: Who Is The Fearless Facilitator? - Fearless Facilitator For more about Simon: Who We Are – Diversity by Design Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week on Fearless Diversity, Rachel Cashman and Simon Fanshawe are joined by former SNP MP and KC Joanna Cherry and Alison Payne, Research Director at the independent Scottish Think Tank Enlighten, for a big conversation about Scotland, power, identity and what happens next.Why has support for Scottish independence barely shifted since the seismic referendum of 2014? Why has the SNP been unable to deliver it? What does tactical voting tell us about what voters really think rather than what political parties think they think?We get into devolution, nationalism, the SNP, Scottish Conservatives, the new Leader of the Scottish Labour Party, recent international data on drug deaths and educational outcomes, gender identity politics, and why disagreement so easily becomes disloyalty.But this is also a conversation about something much bigger than Scotland.Can you believe passionately in a cause and still challenge your own side? And how do we escape “bucket politics” where believing one thing apparently requires you to believe another six things too?And finally, beyond division and constitutional wrangling: what is the opportunity for Scotland now?A conversation about disagreement, belonging, power and the possibility of a better politics.For more about Rachel: Who Is The Fearless Facilitator? - Fearless Facilitator For more about Simon: Who We Are – Diversity by Design Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The interview might be over, but the conversation certainly isn’t.In our first After the Conversation episode, we sit down without a guest to reflect on what has been buzzing in each of our minds after their live recording with Nazir Afzal OBE.What surprised us? Which moments challenged our own thinking? What did we learn about trust, accountability, and leadership? What are we kicking ourselves for not asking? These short episodes are a chance to step back from the headlines and make sense of the ideas that emerge through Fearless Diversity. Sometimes the most valuable insights arrive after the microphones have been switched off.Expect honest reflection, a few points of disagreement, plenty of curiosity, and connections back to the bigger questions at the heart of this podcast: how we navigate difference, build trust, reduce polarisation and create the conditions for better conversations.Understanding doesn’t end when the interview finishes, often that’s where it begins.For more about Rachel: Who Is The Fearless Facilitator? - Fearless Facilitator For more about Simon: Who We Are – Diversity by Design Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Fearless Diversity | Live from Manchester with Nazir Afzal OBE First in our new format of meeting, greeting, and interviewing some of the most interesting leaders and exploring what Fearless Diversity means for them.  On the day one of the men prosecuted for the Rochdale child sexual exploitation scandal was released from prison, Fearless Diversity recorded a live conversation with Nazir Afzal OBE at the REG Connect Race Equality Conference in Manchester. The timing could hardly have been more significant. Nazir reflects on violence against women and girls, the enduring impact of child sexual exploitation, why accountability matters more than ever, and what happens when institutions stop asking difficult questions. He also explains why he has moved away from describing organisations as "institutionally racist", arguing instead that Britain's deeper challenge is a widening deficit of trust and accountability and what leaders can do to rebuild both. This episode is about much more than policy. It is about Manchester. What is Manchesterism? Why has this city produced generations of people prepared to challenge power, confront injustice, and build communities that refuse to look away? What makes Manchester different and what can the rest of the country learn from it? Rachel Cashman and Simon Fanshawe explore these questions with one of the city's most influential public figures. Along the way, Nazir shares reflections on leadership, public service, moral courage, and his experience of advising the man, Andy Burnham MP, who now leads the country, offering a rare insight into the values and relationships that have shaped modern Manchester politics. This is a conversation about more than race. It is about place. About leadership. About accountability. And about how we begin repairing trust at a time when so many people feel our institutions have lost their way. Between each interview, we will be recording a reflection on the discussion and exploring what we wished we had asked and what we might follow up with. So, if you enjoyed this episode, let us know what you would like to ask Nazir. He has offered to join us again. Advance notice we have secured an interview with Alan Milbun who is due to launch his much-anticipated review of young people not in education or employment. Diversity of opportunity for young people and the fearless approach that Government and employers may have to face up to. Let us know what you would like to ask Alan Milburn. Please do listen, like and share.For more about Rachel: Who Is The Fearless Facilitator? - Fearless Facilitator For more about Simon: Who We Are – Diversity by Design Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It’s Christmas. It’s almost the end of the year and it’s the latest episode of Fearless Diversity.Rachel and Simon polish off the twelve days of Christmas with their final six key issues of 2025. In place of geese, swans, maids, ladies, lords, pipers and drummers, they surprised themselves to discover nuance, ethical dilemmas, previously unthought thoughts and a continuation of their honest examinations rather than ideological assumptions.Looking back over the issues that have touched people’s lives and lit our passions this year we explore assisted dying, academic freedom, data and privacy, impartiality and shifting media ownership and why we prefer politicians to be frank and straight-talking whatever party they come from. Exploring our uncertainties as much as our convictions, we continue to have the conversations you want to have. So, “Happy Christmas” to everyone who listens and we’ll see you in 2026. UK Government Data (Use and Access) Bill 2025: Data (Use and Access) Act 2025 - Parliamentary Bills - UK ParliamentHouse of Lords debate the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life Bill):https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2cbcf49e-9d0e-491d-a7e3-177077d403a0Shabana Mahmood Speech and Question from the House of Commons on Asylum (minute 18:12 for the section referred to in Fearless Diversity)https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/78fe5a1e-493e-41a0-aa45-72036ba8434c?in=18:12:55Kemi Badenoch Budget Response:https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/bd93fcba-e4f0-4175-b6ef-701621a2d6c2 ‘I dared to question gender theory at Cambridge. Students carved Terf into my door’https://archive.ph/mLJV3Michelle ShipworthUCL professor in academic freedom row speaks out on Chinahttps://tinyurl.com/v6tj95asOfcom statement in response to High Court Judgment: GB News v Ofcomhttps://tinyurl.com/3hsccp8aData Use & Access Act - Commentary by Pinsent Mason law firmhttps://tinyurl.com/mryynhpnGB News’ Martin Daubney salutes Trump’s cavalcadehttps://tinyurl.com/hvn6rtwkSaimo Chahal – Bindmans solicitor in a number of assisted dying cases – Info on the case of Omidhttps://tinyurl.com/2tucfs9eTranscript of Evidence from Jane Nicklinson and Saimo Chahal, on Behalf of Tony Nicklinson to the Commission on Assisted Dying – Canada - dated December 14,2010https://tinyurl.com/3ntjceprFor more about Rachel: Who Is The Fearless Facilitator? - Fearless Facilitator For more about Simon: Who We Are – Diversity by Design Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this week’s episode, Rachel and Simon pull on their Christmas jumpers and look back at a year of fearless diversity. But instead of a partridge, turtle doves, French hens, calling birds, gold rings and geese, their first “Six Days of Christmas” are:📌 The Employment Rights Bill📌 The surge in ADHD, autism and wider mental health diagnoses📌 What really happened to the so-called “diversity backlash”📌 The national shame of violence against women – and what it means for workplaces📌 Significant employment tribunals and the defence of lawful belief📌 The aftermath of the Supreme Court judgment in For Women ScotlandThreaded through all six are a hard, practical set of questions:Is there a widening gap between ambitious language (on rights, inclusion, safety, mental health) and the real machinery of guidance, training and governance needed to deliver?Does our capacity, competence and confidence in people management lag what these pressures demand?Are law and policy being asked to settle deep social disagreements, leaving institutions exposed, anxious and unsure how to act without legal or reputational blowback?Are people simply tired of performative gestures and hungry for visible fairness, safety, and competence instead?Amid culture-war noise and contested change, is there finally an appetite for more grown-up, practical responses in workplaces and in public life?Join Simon and Rachel for this week’s Christmas special, and feel free to comment, share, disagree and enjoy.RESOURCES:Sir Charlie Mayfield interviewed by Anna Foster on Radio 4’s Today Program (05/12/2025)https://tinyurl.com/3k6e2dhtCharlie Mayfield Review Keep Britain Working Review: Discovery - GOV.UKSarah Everard’s mother’s statement on her daughter’s murderhttps://tinyurl.com/5amt8kuxLady Elish Angiolini (former solicitor general for Scotland) on the release of The Angiolini Inquiry Part 2 First Report: Prevention of sexually motivated crimes against women in publichttps://tinyurl.com/3u9yp656Higgs v Farmor’s School – Appeal Court judgementhttps://tinyurl.com/29sd8ayyMiller v University of BristolThe original judgementhttps://tinyurl.com/49exnbjvThis is being appealed – the hearing was on 12-14th November 2025. Judgement not yet handed downPeople Management“UK companies abandon EDI initiatives in response to Trump’s anti-diversity rhetoric, survey finds” – Nov 3rd 2025 https://tinyurl.com/3psxsmvuMinister, Baroness Smith - Clarity on Supreme Court Judgement, November 2025https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/2025-11-05/debates/33DF0162-75ED-447D-9384-EE32A6422193/details#contribution-1457B511-21E8-40D1-9391-FEE39EF8751E The Prime Minister “the Supreme Court Judgement must be implemented in full and at all levels”, November 2025https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2025-11-12/debates/92F8A914-4D55-4672-A617-A8D393E3504F/details#contribution-38146318-67B4-4A4B-8836-5DE3503797FASupreme Court judgement in AprilFor Women Scotland Ltd (Appellant) v The Scottish Ministers (Respondent)For more about Rachel: Who Is The Fearless Facilitator? - Fearless Facilitator For more about Simon: Who We Are – Diversity by Design Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Tearing Down the Wall: A Fearless Diversity Look at Fairness Three kids, a wall, and those famous different-sized “equity” boxes. Helpful metaphor or the reason that to so many leaders and colleagues think the boxes look like unfairness? In this episode of Fearless Diversity, Rachel and Simon start with that much-used cartoon and end up somewhere much more interesting: how do we remove the barriers to people’s talent and empower them to achieve to the extent of their potential?   Are those “equity” boxes giving people the perception of an unfair advantage? To create greater opportunity shouldn’t we be taking the wall down altogether? And what does that look like if you’re a CEO, HRD, regulator or team leader trying to recruit, promote and manage fairly without getting lost in culture-war noise? Rachel brings her psychological-safety and trauma-informed leadership lens; Simon brings his unique approach to diversity rooted in goals and outcomes rather than gestures and politics. Together they unpack quotas, merit, the “tyranny of low expectations”, neurodiversity, and why pointing and punishing rarely changes anything.We ask how we can (to quote the great black American profess Glen Loury “acknowledge racial disparities without invoking the language of white supremacy. And … pursue equality without promoting guilt or resentment”? If you’ve ever wondered:When does equity become unlawful?How do we support people who meet the skills threshold to succeed?How do we challenge racism and sexism without turning everything into oppressor vs oppressed? …this one’s for you. Smart, practical, occasionally spicy and definitely more useful than another slogan on a slide.How woke and anti-woke erase blackness We must see race, but not be ruled by itBy Glenn Louryhttps://shorturl.at/78pWrFor more about Rachel: Who Is The Fearless Facilitator? - Fearless Facilitator For more about Simon: Who We Are – Diversity by Design Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this special Fearless Diversity episode, we press pause on the culture war and lean into a quieter kind of courage: listening.Rachel and Simon are joined by Jacqui Gavin BEM, a trans woman, former civil servant and long-time equality campaigner, for a deeply human conversation about growing up as Scott in 1970s Scotland, beginning transition as a teenager, and what it means to describe being trans not as an identity but as a process.Across the hour, they explore:The nine-year-old who “wanted to find the girl” and the 21-year-old stepping out with fear and liberation to live as a female.Why Jacqui calls herself “female with a trans history” and how she still lovingly carries Scott with her.What both sides of the sex and gender debate get wrong about each other, and why Jacqui sees herself not as a fighter but as a bridge-builder.Letting children be children, respecting women’s boundaries, and learning to “earn your place in the world” through mutual respect, not demands.This is not a shouting match about policy. It’s three people, in a conversation, talking honestly about fear, dignity, belonging and how to stay human when the world is loud, angry, and certain.If you’ve ever felt confused, anxious, or silenced by the noise around sex and gender, this gentle, thoughtful episode is an invitation: you’re allowed to just ask.For more about Rachel: Who Is The Fearless Facilitator? - Fearless Facilitator For more about Simon: Who We Are – Diversity by Design Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

“A crisis of trust at the BBC” The BBC is weathering one of the fiercest storms in its modern history. The now-infamous Prescott memo, an “egregious” Trump edit, open rows over coverage of the Israel-Gaza conflict, and bitter battles about sex and gender have left Britain’s national broadcaster facing accusations of bias from every direction.But is this just another skirmish in the Beeb’s long and noisy war with its critics – or has something deeper gone wrong inside the corporation once trusted above all others?That’s the question explored in the latest episode of Fearless Diversity, where psychological safety specialist Rachel Cashman joins broadcaster, writer and veteran BBC contributor Simon Fanshawe to ask what the turmoil really reveals about power, leadership and culture inside Britain’s biggest media institution.Drawing on Simon’s decades writing and presenting BBC programmes and Rachel’s work with leaders under intense scrutiny, the pair dissect the growing crisis from every angle.They explore:·      What the leaked Prescott memo uncovers – from the Trump editing debacle to the shifting coverage of Gaza, Israel, and the gender debate.·      How cost-cutting, centralised editorial “hubs” and tight internal controls may have narrowed the breadth of voices and opinions on air.·      Why two things can co-exist: that many have had fulfilling, proud careers inside the BBC while serious questions about its impartiality and internal culture remain unanswered.·      The chilling effect of reported instructions not to question the board – and why any “don’t ask” culture is a red flag in modern leadership.·      How institutions truly lose trust: not when they admit mistakes, but when they spin, minimise or defend instead of confronting uncomfortable truths.Rachel unveils her FEARLESS crisis framework – a model for organisations in trouble – and applies it directly to the BBC, suggesting bold steps the broadcaster must take to rebuild its credibility.Simon, meanwhile, delivers the uncomfortable verdict: that the deeper failure is one of journalism itself. The Director-General, he argues, must act first and foremost as editor-in-chief – and ensure editors lead with impartiality, serving the audience, not their own opinions.Together they make the case for renewing the BBC’s founding purpose: that public service broadcasting still matters, that opinions should never become the story, and that courage and transparency are the lifeblood of any institution hoping to retain public trust.For anyone steering organisations through controversy, managing reputational risk, or simply trying to make sense of what’s happened to the nation’s broadcaster, this is an unmissable listen.For more about Rachel: Who Is The Fearless Facilitator? - Fearless Facilitator For more about Simon: Who We Are – Diversity by Design Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

On November 1st at about 7o’clock a man, now identified as Anthony Williams, is alleged to have stabbed eleven people on a train from Doncaster to Kings Cross. The grainy footage showed that he was black. And up went a racist balloon. Long before anyone knew anymore about him, the tweets were out. He was a terrorist, an asylum seeker……and from others that he was “British born”. This week Rachel and Simon unpack how fear, social media dynamics, and confirmation bias turn these tragedies into fuel on the fires of the culture-wars. How transparent should the police be about reporting the ethnicity of alleged perpetrators? Why do people prefer to confirm their own prejudices – literally to pre-judge – before waiting for the facts? What does academic research tell us about how easily swayed we are to see racism, sexism by or, in the other, view terrorism or issues with immigration and assumptions about race? How does jumping to those conclusions poison our ability at work to interrupt distorted narratives and creating the safety, clarity, and accountability that real dialogue requires form us to get along or work together.  And what can a chippy in North Leeds give us about how to do that?  Advisory: contains discussion of racism and violent incidents. Ongoing legal proceedings are referenced without speculation.  Sonia Sodha’s column My column for @TheNewWorldmag on what lies behind the rise of racism in politicshttps://shorturl.at/JpBWh Simon’s article about Kate Clancy in the New Statesmanhttps://shorturl.at/wRqpC Is Britain becoming more violent? - A look at the dataBy Fraser Nelsonhttps://shorturl.at/MZHdL Leeds chippy batters down faith barriershttps://shorturl.at/DEtE3 Kate Clanchy - Uncancelled at last Four years on, are we any wiser?https://shorturl.at/0qNjO Kids, critics and the courage of Kate ClanchyBy Victoria Smithhttps://tinyurl.com/3e25u8nsRutgers researchInstructing Animosity: How DEI Pedagogy Produces The Hostile Attribution Biashttps://tinyurl.com/28hjwmp2For more about Rachel: Who Is The Fearless Facilitator? - Fearless Facilitator For more about Simon: Who We Are – Diversity by Design Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.