219. What's the Future of Women at Church? A Conversation with Neylan McBaine and Bethany Brady Spalding

This week, we are honored to share with you a conversation with Rabbi Sharon Brous, author of the The Amen Effect: Ancient Wisdom to Mend Our Broken Hearts and World. From the moment we started reading Sharon’s book, we knew that she had a special message, and that she would be an incredible guest. Sharon’s book is a beautiful blend of ancient Jewish wisdom, contemporary science, and deep personal experience that shows how humans throughout history have taken up the responsibility to sit with each other as sacred witnesses to life’s most vulnerable and most joyous moments.Sharon makes the case that when we sit with each other in “celebration, sorrow, and solidarity,” we are connecting in ways that not only forge deep and lasting relationships, but contribute to a larger healing in our communities and in the world. One of the things we loved about Sharon’s book and the conversation with her was that she shared experience from her own life in which she’s succeeded here as well as where she’s failed. None of us do this perfectly, and so often we feel like we don’t even know how to—Sharon was wise and generous in giving herself and all of us grace for now always showing up for people the way we could have, but also practical advice that help us see how we can do this better.Sharon’s speaking from the perspective of a Jewish Rabbi, but her work reminds us of our own sacred texts and our promises to be willing to “mourn with those that mourn.”  We loved that Sharon explained that these principles of connection and solidarity really are universal, and we all get at them in our own languages and through our own rituals and traditions.This episode cuts straight to the heart of what it feels like to be human; it was impossible for it not to get personal, since we all know grief, joy, and connection intimately. We absolutely loved talking with Sharon and consider this a special episode. We hope that you enjoy it as much as we did!

This week, we’re sharing an episode from Proclaim Peace, a podcast we proudly co-sponsor in collaboration with Mormon Women for Ethical Government. Proclaim Peace is hosted by Jennifer Thomas, Co-Executive Director of MWEG, and Patrick Mason, Chair of Mormon History and Culture at Utah State University, and longtime friend and advisor of Faith Matters. In this episode, Patrick and Jennifer chat with Eboo Patel, the founder and president of Interfaith America and a powerful bridge-builder in the United States. Eboo has spent a lifetime trying to harness the passion and loyalty people feel towards their religions and use it for good by encouraging interfaith collaboration and civic engagement. He shares with us some of his insights from several decades of speaking with religious and civic leaders across many different faiths, and some of the special opportunities he sees for our Latter-day Saint community.We encourage you to subscribe to Proclaim Peace to hear fascinating conversations with Latter-day Saint bridge builders and peacemakers working all over the world in creative, gospel-inspired ways. We’d also love for you to register for Restore, which will be held on September 5-7 at the Mountain American Expo Center, where Eboo will be, in-person, along with Patrick, Jennifer, and many other incredible speakers for a weekend of spiritual rejuvenation. You can register at faithmaters.org/restoreWe hope you’ll join us! In the mean time, please enjoy this episode of Proclaim Peace with Eboo Patel.

This week we’re bringing you a conversation on a subject that we’re always thinking about, but that has taken on a special urgency over the last two months—the role of women in the Church. A large survey recently released showed a societal shift with regard to women and religion. In a reversal of trends from prior generations, young women are now leaving religion at significantly higher rates than men. Social issues and patriarchal structures are oft-cited reasons. Are there signs of trouble within our own faith? To explore this question, we invited two brilliant women; Neylan McBaine and Bethany Brady Spalding. Neylan is the author of Women at Church, which turns ten years old this summer. Bethany is the co-author of the Girls who Chose God series, which highlights the powerful stories of women in scripture and Church history. First, a little background on things we reference in this conversation.In  March, the Church’s Instagram account posted a quote from a talk by Anette Dennis, of the Relief Society general presidency.  The post claimed, “There is no other religious organization in the world, that I know of, that has so broadly given power and authority to women.” This one post generated 18 thousand comments, mostly from Latter-day Saint women pushing back against this claim and expressing how their own experience feels quite different.  We also reference something that happened a few months prior when a church area authority in the San Francisco area instructed stakes and wards to discontinue their long-standing practice of having some women leaders sit on the stand during sacrament meetings. Over 3,000 women and men signed an open letter to the general women’s leaders of the church in protest. We make brief reference in the conversation to a book by BYU Religion Professor Barbara Morgan Gardner, The Priesthood Power of Women published by Deseret Book. Gardner distinguishes between the temporal ecclesiastical priesthood to which now only men are ordained and the eternal familial priesthood, to which both men and women are ordained, and in which they act as full partners.We tried to get honest about the tension, while approaching some potential paths forward. Is this just about the Priesthood, or is there something deeper going on? What  practical things can both women and men can do to allow women and their spiritual gifts to shine? Does it require “change from the top” or is there an inner work that anyone could choose to do to change the experience just as profoundly? What might it look like for women to truly act as priestesses in their homes, whether as a single person or side-by-side with a spouse?This is all tricky territory. Some will worry that we can’t consider how to improve women’s experience in the Church while sustaining Church leaders, while others believe that pushing until there is change is the only way forward. We hope this conversation honors all of those voices. We have deep love and empathy for our community and our leaders. We’re grateful if you choose to spend your time with us on this topic. With that, we’ll jump right in.Why Heavenly Mother is Essential for Women Understanding their Eternal Destiny by McArthur Krishna and Bethany Brady Spalding“This Is a Woman’s Church”

This week, we're excited to have Bob Rees on the podcast. Bob is a true "long-haul hero" (to use Pete Davis's term) -- a Latter-day Saint who has been studying and writing on Latter-day Saint topics for more than fifty years. To us, Bob exhibits the best of what we have to offer theologically, and practically, to the world. Bob believes that the deepest power of the Book of Mormon, even more than its remarkable origin story, is its ultimate message of love. After a lifetime of serious study and contemplation, he says, the goodness of the Book has simply changed his life. In addition to the profound effect it's had on him, he's also endlessly fascinated by it. We could feel Bob's enthusiasm as he shared ideas for making our reading of the Book of Mormon come alive–for example, by doing midrash—imagining elaborations and spin-offs that help us flesh out the stories we find in the text. In many ways, Bob models how to have fun with scriptures, even as we learn from or wrestle with them—and allow that work to transform us.Bob has taught in humanities and Mormon Studies at UCLA, UC Berkeley, Graduate Theological Union, and other institutions. He's also the co-founder and Vice President of Bountiful Children, which fights child malnutrition worldwide.If you'd like to hear more from Bob on the topic of The Book of Mormon, we'd really encourage you to check out his book of essays A New Witness to the World, which was published in 2020, or The Reader’s Book of Mormon, which Bob co-edited with Eugene England. Thanks as always for listening, and we're excited to share this conversation with Bob Rees.

This week, we’re sharing a fascinating conversation we had with Josh Coates, a computer scientist, entrepreneur, and founder of the BH Roberts Foundation. The BH Roberts Foundation is the non-profit behind Mormonr, a producer of Latter-day Saint media that tackles hard questions about the faith, as well as "LDSBot," an AI-driven chatbot that is able to handle just about any question about Latter-day Saint culture and theology shockingly well. In February of this year, Josh and his colleague, Steven Cranney, published the results of yet another project: a survey of a representative sample of active and former Latter-day Saints that the BH Roberts Foundation conducted. The survey found that among active Latter-day Saints, two "clusters" emerged: 80% of the sample had fairly orthodox beliefs around God, the Church, and the historicity of the Book of Mormon, while 20% expressed more uncertainty and held less traditional views. The survey also integrated questions from Jonathan Haidt's Moral Foundations theory, which attempts to suss out how different kinds of people build their ethical perspectives. This part of the survey found some really fascinating differences here between active Latter-day Saints and former Latter-day Saints that we think could help us understand each other better.We spent some time with Josh talking about the different values and gifts these two clusters of practicing members can bring to the Church. In Josh's view, neither group alone can bring to bear the full gifts of the community on its own: cluster one could help our community grow deep, strong roots, while cluster two could help us branch out, expand, and explore. We're super grateful to Josh, Steven, and the rest of their team for their work on this survey, and to Josh for sharing more about it with us. There's a lot to dig into here, and as always, we hope that discussing differences can actually help see each other with more empathy and love.

We're so excited to have Sarah and Josh Sabey on the podcast this week. Sarah and Josh are writers, filmmakers, and spouses. Their films cover important issues in non-polarizing ways. Their first film, American Tragedy, reached the top ten most watched films on Amazon Prime. Their latest project is called The Book of Mormon Storybook for Little Saints. It's a beautiful 2-volume collection of 50 Book of Mormon stories, adapted for children and their parents. They write that the primary goal of this book is not to teach children a summary of events but is rather, the artful retelling of the stories themselves. We love that each chapter is driven by and anchored to their testimonies, which they have condensed into this single sentence: “these are stories about a real God who loves real people.” --People who are complicated, wounded, and trying, who make mistakes again and again but who are never abandoned. This focus on the characters' humanity and core doctrinal principles in the Book of Mormon reveal the book's fundamental message of hope, or as Elder Kearon put it, the reality that "God is in relentless pursuit of you." In this conversation Josh and Sarah talk about the ways they imagine shame, fear, and even trauma are at play in the lives of Book of Mormon characters we know so well and they point out the broader story arcs and lessons we can learn about vilification, polarization, and tribalism. We learn a little bit about their experience writing the book and how the kind of intuitive reaching we experience in creativity can be a form of worship. You can find The Book of Mormon Storybook for Little Saints at forlittlesaints.com and on audible and we highly recommend them both.

This week we’re joined by our good friend and contributor to Faith Matters, Thomas McConkie, along with his longtime mentor and friend, John Kesler.In many ways, Thomas and John's paths were mirror images of each other until they eventually collided. John Kesler developed an awareness and life practice called IPP or Integral Polarity Practice that has had a profound impact on Thomas's life. You're going hear a little about polarities or fundamental tensions of human development and how in finding the "still points" in these seeming opposites, we can experience a real relief of that tension and a transcendent peace. Both Thomas and John believe that one of the gifts of our tradition is that it has the structure and scaffolding that creates rich, fertile ground for genuine development.  And at the same time, they see that at different seasons of our lives we experience struggle, even struggle around belief. And yet, as John says, in those experiences, we learn that "there's something down deep that's there that can hold us and nurture us." And that these depths can bring us not beyond belief but to the source of belief.This conversation felt so abundant. It felt like a starting place. Thomas and John will be hosting a handful of retreats and events this summer so if you are interested in learning more, you can check out all of those opportunities in the links below.Transformations of Faith CourseAt One Ment: Embodying the Fullness of Human-Divinity,  by Thomas McConkie7-Day Silent Retreat (August 5-12th, 2024):https://lowerlightswisdom.org/classes/7-day-august-silent-retreat-scholls-202410% Discount Code for 7-Day: FM7DAY3-Day IPP Facilitation Retreat (Aug 1-3, 2024):https://lowerlightswisdom.org/classes/3-day-ipp-retreat-202420% Discount Code for 3-Day IPP: FMIPP20Nobody will be turned away for lack of sufficient funds, financial aid available. 

 **Disclaimer that this episode mentions suicide in connection to LGBTQ youth. If you are not in a place to listen right now, you might want to skip this one. If you are, though, we really encourage you to listen on this tough but important topic that impacts so many in our community.**In this conversation, Dr. Jordon and Liz Sharp from St. George, Utah, shared their remarkable and inspiring story of moving from trauma, confusion, and loss to miracles, enlightenment, and strength as an LDS/LGBTQ family. Several years ago—even before they had thought much about this themselves—a tragic event with some family friends resulted in Liz and Jordon receiving strong promptings that God has a deep and abiding love for LGBTQ individuals  and wants them to thrive. Jordon (Vice President of Marketing & Communication at Utah Tech University) and Liz (a registered nurse) eloquently described the mistakes made, lessons learned, opportunities found, and how their family bonds expanded far beyond their expectations after their son Sam came out at the age of 14. Due to what he saw as a lack of resources and support in this space, Jordon eventually helped found the Gather Conference, the largest-ever Christ-centered conference for Latter-day Saint LGBTQ individuals and those who love them. To learn more about the Gather Conference and to find resources for LGBTQ/LDS families, visit liftandlove.org.Liz and Jordon’s family story is near and dear to our hearts at Faith Matters. So often, we don’t have answers to know how we all belong in the family of God; we only have our conviction that we do belong and a willingness to figure it out along the way. Our conversation with Liz and Jordon gets deep into their personal story, including their ongoing spiritual learning and efforts to build conversations about the LGBTQ experience in the Church. We found them to be incredible examples  of how to plow into uncharted territory with humility and a simple trust in one fact — that we are all beloved children of God. 

We’re really excited to share this episode with you. It was with someone we’ve wanted to talk to for a very long time — Deseret Book president Laurel Christensen Day. We knew from afar that she was a trailblazing leader and a thoughtful publisher — and we were not surprised to find that as we got to know her a little bit that she’s a woman of deep faith as well. Uniformly, everyone we have ever spoken with who has had a chance to work with Laurel absolutely loves her.We’ve always been fascinated by Deseret Book — by the unique place it holds in Latter-day Saint culture and the responsibility it has in creating and distributing content that informs, inspires, and even shapes belief. Walking into a Deseret Book and seeing the art and the books and the scripture sets always seems to make us nostalgic for our own upbringings and tradition, even while we’re living it! And Deseret Book is, of course, much more than just a retailer  — they’re a major content producer with business lines in books, music, art, and events. And of course, it does all of this as a part of the larger organization of the Church.We thought Laurel’s insights were incredibly perceptive and thoughtful. She shared with us thoughts on what to do when you make a mistake, even as a leader, or perhaps especially as a leader—with openness rather than defensiveness, and with introspection and searching for the truth in criticism. She also shared a little bit about her story, including her journey as a woman navigating her business career—along with some other insights for women and how advocating for yourself could look. And finally, Laurel was kind enough to share some advice for us at Faith Matters.

This week, we’re bringing you an interview with Kurt Francom, author of a new book titled, Is God Disappointed in Me? Removing Shame from a Gospel of Grace. It seems to us that culturally, Latter-day Saints don’t usually imagine an angry vengeful God but we may very well imagine a god who is perpetually disappointed with us when we inevitably fail again to live up to our highest ideals. Kurt’s book unpacks what hurts about the idea of a disappointed God and why this belief can be a real stumbling block to our growth. He explores the ways sin is very often a response to woundedness and how understanding these core vulnerabilities can help us to heal from shame instead of hiding or numbing. We've linked to a sweet video Kurt posted of his daughter learning to walk; though she is fumbling and struggling to learn, the video reminds us that as parents, we're not disappointed by this process of growth. Instead, like Kurt's voice in this little video, he was bursting with pride at her growth, joy when she got back up, and excitement that he got to be with her in the journey of learning to walk. Is this what we imagine God -a loving heavenly father and mother feels, when we make mistakes? We think these ideas are so transformative. You can find Kurt’s book on Amazon or Benchmark Books. We also invite you to check out Kurt’s “Learning to walk” video with his daughter, which we’ll link to in the show notes. We hope you enjoy this episode.Is God Disappointed In Me? (on Amazon): https://a.co/d/2soZzs5Learning to walk video: https://youtu.be/nC9CIIXRJS0