Shame, Scams, and The Stories We Tell Ourselves (with Ollie Wards)

Jake sits down with Snowball creator Ollie Wards to discuss how a family mystery became an international hit. They trace Ollie’s journey from the first recorded conversation with his dad – recorded under a hotel duvet – to the heart-pounding moment he found himself face-to-face with the con artist herself: Lezlie Manukian. Along the way, they touch on the challenges of reporting on family, the psychology of scammers and their victims, and the strange kind of closure that comes when truth is messier than justice. Listen to Deep Cover Presents: Snowball ad-free with a Pushkin+ subscription. Find Pushkin+ on the Deep Cover show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

After the confrontation in the supermarket carpark, Ollie is left feeling confused — has he beencharmed just like everyone else in this story? Lezlie left promising Ollie she would meet for a proper interview the next day. Will she turn up... orleave him and his family hanging? More details come to life about the consequences of Lezlie's reckless lifestyle and how little she hasprospered. Ollie asks himself if he should be feeling sorry for her. Listen to Deep Cover Presents: Snowball ad-free with a Pushkin+ subscription. Find Pushkin+ on the Deep Cover show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ollie and Simon have criss-crossed California to find themselves parked in their American muscle carstaking out exits from a supermarket they think Lezlie works in. They may only have one shot to talk toher and finally get some answers. In preparation, Ollie speaks with psychologist and professional poker player Maria Konnikova, who tells him the real meaning of the term "con artist". Her most potent tip is to beware the charm offensive...and be prepared to use it in return. Listen to Deep Cover Presents: Snowball ad-free with a Pushkin+ subscription. Find Pushkin+ on the Deep Cover show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ollie and Simon follow the trail of broken dreams and failed restaurants to Paso Robles, California. Ollie discovers his former sister-in-law has manufactured an image of a successful restauranteur in Hawaii, Lake Tahoe and New Zealand. Her exotic CV and exciting stories pull a new family into her web... with disastrous consequences. Finally, they get a tip-off that might lead them directly to Lezlie. Her lies may be about to catch up toher. Listen to Deep Cover Presents: Snowball ad-free with a Pushkin+ subscription. Find Pushkin+ on the Deep Cover show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ollie turns to Lezlie's emails for clues of her whereabouts. Here, he uncovers a bizarre story involving a book deal, a ghost writer and a famous actress. Could this web of lies reveal Lezlie's motivations as a scammer? Ollie and Simon then take a flight to California and hit the road. When the trail runs cold, they decide to chase down a lead at Lezlie's first restaurant in the resort town of Lake Tahoe. If you can’t wait to find out what happens, binge episodes of Deep Cover Presents: Snowball early and ad-free with a Pushkin+ subscription. Find Pushkin+ on the Deep Cover show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The stories Lezlie Manukian has told people about her time in Hawaii usually end with murderous local mobsters running her off the island. But this is also coming from the tall tale telling Californian trickster we've heard can even swindle a bank. When Lezlie left New Zealand, never to be seen again, it seemed like the only way for Greg Wards to understand who he really married was to ask the Hawaiian police what really happened. If you can’t wait to find out what happens, binge episodes of Deep Cover Presents: Snowball early and ad-free with a Pushkin+ subscription. Find Pushkin+ on the Deep Cover show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What looks like a dream marriage for Ollie Wards' brother Greg soon morphs into a nightmare. With the whole family drawn into the mess, his parents go from a comfortable retirement to being homeless and squatting in the basement at his Aunty's house. Even though she was on a tourist visa in New Zealand, Greg's American wife had secured a massive loan from the country's state-owned bank. After she flies off, never to be seen again, a box of documents from the bank transaction surfaces.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ollie Wards was MC at his brother's wedding. "It was a fun party," he recalls, "kind of rowdy. But inside I had a sense of unease. I couldn't explain it." He ignored the feeling. Greg met his bride while backpacking in London. He was in his twenties and partying hard. But he always had his eye on America. He loved everything to do with the place. So, when he met a dark-haired, older, well-travelled, fast-talking Californian woman named Lezlie Manukian he says he was 'a sitting duck'. If you can’t wait to find out what happens, binge episodes of Deep Cover Presents: Snowball early and ad-free with a Pushkin+ subscription. Find Pushkin+ on the Deep Cover show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In 2006, Greg Wards was your average Kiwi backpacker on an overseas adventure in the UK, working hard, playing harder — and falling head-over-heels in love. After a whirlwind international romance, Greg married Lezlie Manukian in New Zealand. Their new life started out by setting up a small business north of Auckland. But a snowball had started to roll the day Greg met Lezlie Manukian. It wasn't long before this ball of chaos gathered pace and crushed Greg and his family. Starting November 3, binge episodes of Deep Cover Presents: Snowball early and ad-free with a Pushkin+ subscription. Find Pushkin+ on the Deep Cover show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm/plus.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Last week, President Trump commuted George Santos’ prison sentence — a decision that’s prompted both surprise and reflection. Producer Amy Gaines McQuade walks Jake Halpern through the news and checks back in with people who knew Santos to hear their reactions. For more on Mark’s reporting on George Santos, check out his book: The Fabulist - The Lying, Hustling, Grifting, Stealing and Very American Legend of George Santos.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.