Spotlight on Design feat. Jaime Rummerfield and Marcos Santa Ana 539 | LIVE from Design Hardware in Los Angeles

The Convo By Design Icon Registry inductees this month are Jordan Slocum and Barry Bordelon AKA the Brownstone Boys. They appeared on the show around 2020. I feel strongly about historical preservation and I cannot think of anyone who does this as authentically as Jordon and Barry. Neither were born in Brooklyn, but they found themselves there with a passion for design and a love of brownstones. Their authenticity with regard to the work is inescapable and their sole focus on the mission of restoring old brownstones is what I think makes them so unique. This is not a flavor-of-the-month activity to become socially relevant. They started their passion project first, turned it into a business and the fame followed, as did more projects, book deals and all the other fun stuff designers  want as part of their professional portfolio.  Designer Resources Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise. Monogram - It’s the details that define Monogram ThermaSol - Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom. Design Hardware - A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!  - Where service meets excellence TimberTech - Real wood beauty without the upkeep The other aspect to their work that I find so wonderful is their approach to each project. Not recreating it in the original form of the architect but reimagining it and keeping the essence of the work, historical reference but also reimagining it to fit seamlessly into the neighborhood with all the modern amenities one would hope for without shoe-horning it it. It flows effortlessly into each completed project. Allowing those who love brownstones to enjoy this as well as allowing the architectural purist to appreciate the workmanship and creative approach to a revitalized building. Please enjoy an encore airing of that first conversation with Barry and Jordan, our December 2024 inductees to the Convo By Design Icon Registry, the Brownstone Boys. Thank you Barry and Jordan for appearing on the show, creating such beautiful reimagined spaces and respecting the original work as you do. Thank you to my wonderful partner sponsors; ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, Design Hardware, TimberTech and Monogram for your continued support and thank you for taking the time to listen to the show and sharing it with your friends, family and colleagues. Until next time, be well and take today first.

Design Hardware Fall 2024 Open House  I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with some of the highlights from the Fall open house at Design Hardware. Incredible design talent, interesting conversations and insights into how the business of design is changing. Designer Resources Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise. Monogram - It’s the details that define Monogram ThermaSol - Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom. Design Hardware - A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!  - Where service meets excellence TimberTech - Real wood beauty without the upkeep The design industry today is more robust and complex than ever before. And that is only going to continue to change over time. Accelerating with every new change in technology and business climate. Not to mention actual climate changes. Every quarter, I check in with design talent at the Design Hardware showroom in Los Angeles and we chop up issue like these and others. These are some of the highlights from our Fall 2024 event that took place in November. You are going to hear all about that, right after this. Adam Hunter Cecilia Rose Candace Quinn Bianca Bush Ben Jones  What a day. Thank you Cecile, Candace, Bianca, Adam and Ben. These were just a few of the conversations we had and you can find more in depth with these individuals as well as additional creatives by listening to Doctoring Up Design, the official podcast of Design Hardware. Check the show notes for links to that and all the designers you’ve heard here today. Thank you to my partner sponsors including ThermaSol, TimberTech, Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home, Design Hardware and Monogram for your continued support to the design community. Thank you for taking the time to listen to the show and share it with with family, friends and colleagues. Your time is the most valuable asset and I appreciate the time we spend here together on the show. Please keep those show and guest suggestions coming. convo by design at outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXDesign with and “X”. Until next week, be well and take today first. -CXD

The smell of Fall is in the air and people across the U.S. are preparing for a holiday season that will include gatherings. Family and friends get together, give thanks and celebrate one another. Much of that celebratory time takes place in the kitchen, the heart of the home where conversation and meal preparation are shared and enjoyed. Are you ready? Designer Resources Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise. Monogram - It’s the details that define Monogram ThermaSol - Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom. Design Hardware - A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!  - Where service meets excellence TimberTech - Real wood beauty without the upkeep It’s not only during the holidays, but everyday activities take place in the kitchen and a group of exceptionally talented designers gathered to share their thoughts on how the technological advancements in home appliances have changed the way people live and the way these advancements are bettering the lives of those who employ them. We started with a very simple idea to discuss: Technology, Style and Todays Most Well Designed Kitchens: Everything is Changing, How Some of the Most Talented Creatives Are Changing the Rules. The most talented designers understand that times are changing. They have seen it happen, in real time prior to the start of the pandemic. Societal changes dating back to the financial crisis of 08/09 led to a renewed look at the “value” of home and the Covid pandemic created a renewed look at the “purpose”. No space has changed more than the kitchen, previously dubbed, “the heart of the home” has morphed into the heart, brain and central nervous system. All things experiential touch the kitchen. Technology has led to some of the greatest advancements in expected areas like refrigeration, cooking and cleaning, but that is only the beginning. How have technological advancements led to increased quality of life? What followed is only the beginning in a wonderful journey of exploration. Thank you to Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home and Monogram for making this gathering possible. Great partners like Pacific Sales and Monogram appreciate their design clients and strive to provide opportunities to gather, learn and share experiences with our likeminded creates. They make the built environment community stronger and that in turn increases the quality of life for those fortunate enough to engage remarkable designers like these. The following conversation covered a lot of territory and real world scenarios about this very subject. Here are just a few of the concepts we discussed: Recovered time no longer spent on meal prep Convenience through remote activation Automated cooking for meal perfection Reduced upkeep App management Decorative advancements Efficiency Increased air and water quality Minimized need for tools  Simplified education for full and maximized use Minimized food waste In appliance cameras for off-site reference Fully customizable space for design approval  And you are going to hear from some amazing creatives starting with Lynnelle Bryant of Masbuild Design Solutions, right after this. Lynnelle Bryant| Masbuild Design Solutions  Goli Karimi | HomeFrontBuild Gwen Sukeena | Sukeena Homes Jeanne Chung | Cozy Stylish Chic Laura Muller | Four Point Design Build Rachel Scheff | Rachel Scheff Design Studio What an incredible day. Thank you Lynnelle, Goli, Gwen, Jeanne, Laura, and Rachel. Thank you Shaun Ayala, Verzine Hovasapyan, and Ricardo Garcia with pacific Sales Kitchen & Home for your participation and support for the design community. Thank you to all my partner sponsors including Pacific Sales, Monogram, ThermaSol, TimberTech and Design Hardware. These are amazing companies and they are here to make your projects the best they can possibly be.

This episode is a special one dedicated to the 2024 Convo By Design Icon Registry inductees. This inaugural class of inductees features a diverse group of extraordinary creatives. If you have been listening to the special episodes that air the third Thursday of each month, you’ve heard just what makes these people so extraordinary at what they do. This was the first year of the program and it is scheduled to run well into the future.  Designer Resources Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise. Monogram - It’s the details that define Monogram ThermaSol - Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom. Design Hardware - A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!  - Where service meets excellence TimberTech - Real wood beauty without the upkeep This idea for a Hall of Fame was conceived quite some time ago, but I struggled with a touch of imposter syndrome. I thought, who am I to bestow an honor like this on these people. The best in the business today and then a few things happened. The first was the 10-year anniversary party which was held in May of 2023. I was surrounded by so many friends, previous guests of the show, industry partners, all who listen to the show on a weekly basis and I heard stories about how these conversations have helped them in their careers, especially through the pandemic and now, when it feels like life has become a series of crisis management events, one after another. To showcase those who have figured it out and sharing how they did it, then celebrating their accomplishments. It just felt like a good time to start this project. This is not a list by which I expect anything in return. There is no ask for promotion or social media shares. This is just my way of celebrating these folks. But, there are criteria. These individuals have all been on the show, they are extraordinary at what they do by any and all standards and finally, the make our industry better, better than they found it. That is a big one, you will find that each of these amazing creatives have produced exceptional work, many do, but not all give back. Everyone here has, in exceptional ways. And you’re going to hear a bit from each. By the way, the entire episodes are available and you can check the links in the show notes to listen to each on. We’re going to get to that, right after this. 2024 Convo By Design Icon Registry Inductees: January - Bunny Williams. February - Cara Woodhouse. March - Jean Brownhill. April - Alex Papachristidis. May - Susan Ferrier. June - Dakota Jackson. July - Brigette Romanek. August - Jaime Bush September - Timothy Corrigan. October - Kyle Bunting. November - Brian Pinkett. December - Brownstone Boys. What a great look back and these incredible people. I’m grateful and thankful that they all took the time to share their gifts, here, with us. Each inductee will be receiving, in addition to my eternal gratitude, a hand turned piece to commemorate their induction. Crafted by yours truly through JMC Studio. They have all been fabricated from local materials here in Tulsa, including wood from an old white oak that fell during the derecho in 2023. Thank you again to each for your contributions to our industry and the clients you serve. Thank you to my partner sponsors for your continued support, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, Monogram, TimberTech and Design Hardware. Amazing companies who are dedicated to the success of the specifiers who craft and construct some of the worlds greatest structures. And thank you for listening to the show, downloading episodes and sharing them with your colleagues, friends and clients. Please keep those emails coming with show and guest suggestions. Until next week, be well and take today first. -CXD

I just thought since this is the Friday after Thanksgiving, almost everyone is home, eating, drinking and enjoying time with family, I would give you an opportunity to slip away for an hour or so for some alone time. You’re welcome. This is another installment of Drinking About Design. This episode features Butler Armsden leadership team or Glenda Flaim and Federico Engel. We are talking about some really obscure topics, drinking while we do it and I hope you enjoy it. Designer Resources Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise. Monogram - It’s the details that define Monogram ThermaSol - Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom. Design Hardware - A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!  - Where service meets excellence TimberTech - Real wood beauty without the upkeep Fernando Engel is sharing stories about his homeland, Argentina, as well as the Capanopolis, and Francisco Salamone and Glenda will be sharing her thoughts on Venetian Chimneys. Never heard of Venetian chimneys? Well it’s a story on invention. As the proverb goes, “Necessity is the mother of invention.” And that perfectly describes Venetian chimneys. Think about fire suppression in overcrowded cities, adding ornate design. Cool right, now date them back to the 13th century. Ideas in technological spark arresting and fire suppression. We’re going to get right to this. Special thanks to Glenda and Federico from Butler Armsden for joining me and for my incredible partner sponsors; Pacific Sales, ThermaSol, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware for making it possible and allowing me to share these stories with you. With that, I give you another installation of Drinking About Design. That was so much fun. Thank you Federico and Glenda, so appreciate the storytelling and the time. Thank you to my partner sponsors ThermaSol, TimberTech, Pacific Sale, Monogram and Design Hardware for your continued support and thank you for taking the time out of your busy day to join me for these conversations. This was a fun one, right? There are more episodes of Drinking About Design in 2025 so subscribe to the podcast and get every episode, brand new, right to your feed. Until next week. Happy Thanksgiving, Be well, and take today first. -CXD

This podcast, started in 2013, now 11 years running. I wanted to break from the usual conversations to share some thoughts on gratitude and optimism. To share some updates and thank those who have participated in this exceptional run. Designer Resources Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise. Monogram - It’s the details that define Monogram ThermaSol - Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom. Design Hardware - A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!  - Where service meets excellence TimberTech - Real wood beauty without the upkeep The production of this episode coincides with Thanksgiving, intentionally. This is the time of year when most design professionals and clients alike tend to shut things down for the year. Kids come home from school for the Winter break, family comes to visit, we buy gifts for loved ones, attend holiday parties and I like to think that I am not alone in looking at the past year reflectively while looking to the new year with renewed optimism. 2024 was a fantastic year with regard to the show. Convo By Design has hit a higher gear this year. Going back to by background in motorsports, that means we have opened up new opportunities and are running faster and harder than ever before. The post-pandemic world is different that it was prior. Some issues have emerged this year that I find disturbing. Natural disasters, climate change, weather patterns have all accelerated. It isn’t really about if people believe or remain climate change deniers. Ignore these changes at your peril. I experienced something in 2023 that forever changed the way I feel about climate changes. Father’s Day, 2023, there was a straight line wind event in Tulsa. 100 mile per hour winds for 30-minutes. You can imagine the destruction. My family was fine, but others were not as fortunate. As I write this, a series of hurricanes passed through the southeast and the devastation was tremendous. We are also saw a dock workers strike, a fierce election season which will once again separate families and end friendships. And as I say this, I cannot help but feel optimistic for the year to come. Why? I’ll tell you, rights after this. Why the optimism? First, I have been incredibly fortunate. I have my family, my health, you… yes you, I am so thankful that you listen, even happier when you send an email to let me know you like the show, disagree with something I said or have a guest suggestion. I also have a roster of incredible partner sponsors. Patrick, Nick, Mitch, Rachael and Jari from ThermaSol. Dan, Jay, Sam from TimberTech. Shaun and Verzine from Pacific Sales as well as the amazing team at Monogram. Michele, Avi, Stassi and Jaime from Design Hardware. Then there are the incredible creatives who share their stories and their work with us, you and me every week on the show. 2024 has brought some new endeavors, exciting changes and portends great things to come. But tread cautiously. I’ll get to that in a moment. First, the new developments. I learned early on in my radio career that the only thing you can really count on is change. The Telecom Act of 1996 changed so much, for me…and you. Most of the people I speak with these days don’t listen to the radio, and that is unfortunate for radio, but not for all of the incredible audio programming that we have available. If there was no Telecommunications Act of 1996, radio stations would probably still be in the hands of individual owners instead of the 10 groups that almost every American radio station. When I was a teenager, growing up in the Valley. I listened to KLOS, KMET, KNAC and KROQ. Play a song for me and I can tell you about how old I was and what I was doing when it was popular. KMET and KLOS created a love for Guns & Roses, Motley Crue, Giant, Scorpions and Van Halen, KNAC sharpened the rock edge with Metallica, Ozzy, Anthrax and Megadeth. Then KROQ, my beloved KROQ.

Suitability has been on my mind a lot lately. I was taking the pup for a walk the other day and as I passed a home in the neighborhood that was under major renovation, it got me thinking about the concept of design suitability. I have been thinking about it quite a bit actually. Design suitability could also be interpreted as creatively vibing. To be on the same creative plane, with an ability to communicate freely and effectively. Any designer or client who has experienced creatively vibing understands that the way things get done when people are sharing that headspace is, beyond compare. It’s a rarity. Designer Resources Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise. Monogram - It’s the details that define Monogram ThermaSol - Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom. Design Hardware - A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!  - Where service meets excellence TimberTech - Real wood beauty without the upkeep When I got back to the house, I found a package leaning against the front door. I don’t know about you but coming home to a package delivery still makes me giddy. It’s that same feeling when you are out to eat and come back from the restroom to find your food waiting for you. Love that. The package was a book, so we have a new BOOKLOOK for you featuring the new book called Contemporary Living  by Paul McClean of McClean Design. This book is a love letter to California and California living. This is an extraordinary book that opens with an essay about California living and the roots of residential design in the Golden State. You’ll hear abut some of California architecture pioneers like Koenig, Gehry and Neutra that leads you through an exploration of McCleans work perched in the Hills of Los Angeles. These modern masterworks demonstrate McCleans understanding and respect for the origins of California living, followed by concrete examples of how he deconstructs the core ideas and presents the concepts within completely original works. It’s a masterful understanding of how something works and possessing the talent and ability to take those ideas and reimagine them.  That original idea of creatively vibing with others, the environment, and past works of long lost masters provides all the elements for something very special. Contemporary Living by Paul McClean guides you through a visual journey of the architecture, site placement, scale and material selection. Design books, when done right are treasures to those who love to look at the work. This one is special for those that not only want to see the work but to gather an understanding of the philosophical approach taken to the finished residence. Finding the right architect is critical to obtaining the right shelter space for each individual. That method of vibing creatively allows the design to emerge and adapt to the individual. I don’t think we talk enough about the people when it comes to design. This monograph makes sure to focus on elemental ideas like land, water, light, elevation, and the California ethos, which is inextricably connected to people who long for the California feel. If you love modern design and contemporary living that California feel, you should get this book. Published by Rizzoli and you can find a link in the show notes. Brilliant monograph, Paul. Well done. Staying on the creative vibing theme for a bit longer, this episode of the podcast features a conversation with designer, Michelle Murphy of DemiRyan. One of the things that constantly troubles me is the idea that design is a universal concept. It’s not. Design is personal. The relationship between client and designer should be personal. That doesn’t mean you have to be besties, you don’t even have to like each other. Michelle and I talk about a number of things that point to this idea of suitability that can mean success or failure of the client-designer relationship.

I’m Josh Cooperman and this is the Convo By Design Icon Registry November induction whose recipient has been on the show individually, part of a panel, part of a smaller group, virtually and in person. He has done all of this while simultaneously rising to principle of one of the most incredible architecture firms of the modern era. Brian, how’s that for a lead in? The Brian I am referring to is the most recent inductee into the Icon Registry, it’s Brian Pinkett, principal of Landry Design Group. When I first started this program back in January of this year, I wanted to recognize some of the most extraordinary individuals who have honored me, and us with their presence on the show. Those who have lent their exceptional talents to their chosen profession and made this world better than they found it. Brian Pinkett is one of those people through his exceptional design skills, of course. But, that is no where near where the story lies. We he just a great architect, that would be one thing. Every architect I speak with on the show is the best at what they do. Every designer who appears on the podcast is the best at what they do. The difference lies between the lines. You might have hear my most recent conversation with Pinkett a few months back. He and I met at Design Hardware in Los Angeles for a Day of Design and he shared his philosophy and practical application of getting the absolute best out of the architects in his charge. We discussed how he approaches team work, mentorship and  challenging those who want to be exceptional at what they do.  That is Brian’s superpower and he has made a number of young architects exceptional at what they do by finding ways of bringing it out of them through their work. In the past, I shared my background in broadcasting, working in radio for decades prior to finding my passion that led to our weekly chats. I wish I could tell you that I had some great mentors during my career in radio. I didn’t. Broadcast radio is a cutthroat business. It’s transactional and temporary. The secret is, it’s no different than most industries. Most people never have a Brian Pinkett to guide them. Brian is clear eyed with regard to his mentorship approach as he is to the design work.  Brian is exceptional at what he does and so we are going to celebrate his installment in the Convo By Design Icon Registry by looking back at one of his previous appearances on the show. I selected the panel conversation from the WestEdge Design Fair in 2019 since we just celebrated another fantastic WestEdge Design Fair. This conversation was titled, Design Diversity: Crafting Our World the Way it Should Be. This was the first conversation of its kind at a design fair. It was a conversation about race and design, about meritocracy and making the tent bigger for all who have something to offer. It was pre-Covid and before George Floyd’s murder set off a revolution in the U.S. This conversation also features Ron Woodson, Bridgette Coulter Cheadle and Breegan Jane. It was an exceptional conversation and I thought it would be a perfect way to look back and celebrate Brian Pinkett, the November 2024 Convo By Design Icon Registry inductee. BP Thank you, Bridgette, Ron and Breegan for being a part of this really important conversation. Thank you, Brian for being a part of this and always willing to share what you know with anyone who will listen! Congratulations on your addition to the Convo By Design Icon Registry. Thank you for listening and subscribing to the show. Thank you to my partner sponsors Design Hardware, ThermaSol, TimberTech, Monogram and Pacific Sales. these are amazing partners all, they support the trade and I love sharing these amazing resources with you. Thanks again for listening, until next week, be well and take today first. - CXD

I’m josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with a sampling from the Summer edition of the Designer Showcase event at Design Hardware. Every Season, we invite some of the most talented creatives from across the Southland and the U.S. to participate in strategic conversations, interviews, product launches and panel conversations. This is part of Design Hardware’s commitment to the design community. And we’ve got a sampling from that event. Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise. Monogram - It’s the details that define Monogram ThermaSol - Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom. Design Hardware - A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!  - Where service meets excellence TimberTech - Real wood beauty without the upkeep This episode of the show features two very talented and very different creatives. The first is Jaime Rummerfield who you have heard before on the podcast. Jaime is an old friend and a crazy-talented designer. You have heard her before, usually with Ron Woodson, but things change and Jaime has gone out on her own. What’s that like? You’re going to find out. Then, you will hear from Marcos Santa Ana of Alloi. Marcos is an architect and general contractor with a very unique perspective on the work and art that is architecture. And you are going to hear all about it. Thank you Jaime and Marcos. By the way, if you are listening to this on the day we published, November 12th, you still have time to see both of these amazing designers as well as dozens more at the WestEdge Design Fair, November 14th through the 16th at Barker Hangar in Santa Monica. Here is a link to get tickets to the show and see all of the incredible programming produced by Convo By Design.  https://www.grsreg.com/westedge24/exhPass?exh=cxd Thank you to my incredible partner sponsors; ThermaSol, Design Hardware, Pacific Sales, Monogram and TimberTech. These are all fantastic partners with exceptional products and service to match. I have vetted these companies and I believe in them, and I think you should too. Check the show notes for direct links. Thank you for checking them out and specifying them on your next project. I also want to thank you for listening to the show and sharing Convo By Design with your friends, coworkers and colleagues who you think might enjoy it as well. Please also keep the guest and show suggestions coming; convo by design at outlook dot com and on Instagram @convoxdesign, with an “x”. Until next week, be well and take today first. -CXD

I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with another preview episode as we get ready for the WestEdge Design Fair in Santa Monica, California. We’ll be back at the Barker Hanger for another installment of the show. That means another stage featuring 2 full days of talks and and thought provoking conversations. Thought provoking, yeah we’ve got that. And if you'd like to attend, here's a link for tickets: https://www.grsreg.com/westedge24/exhPass?exh=cxd Designer Resources Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise. Monogram - It’s the details that define Monogram ThermaSol - Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom. Design Hardware - A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!  - Where service meets excellence TimberTech - Real wood beauty without the upkeep Every year around April or May, I sit down and put pen to paper. I will write out dozens of program ideas from some of the most intriguing concepts that come from the podcast and sketch out what a more detailed conversation might look like. The episode you are about to hear is what inspired the Iconic Architecture program live from WestEdge and what ideas might be explored. This program is jam packed with heavy hitters in design and architecture covering a big concept. What makes architecture iconic and worth saving? The panel will include; Jaime Rummerfield, Christopher Goddard, Anthony Laney, Paul McClean and William Hefner. I am incredibly excited to sit and watch moderator, Alison Martino of Vintage LA navigate these treacherous waters. Everyone has an opinion, right? Where did this idea come from? Back in June of 2022, you heard an episode about 1001 North Roxbury, an extraordinary home in Beverly Hills. A home that was in remarkable condition, exceptionally designed and on a list of homes to be saved in Beverly Hills. It’s gone now. And you are going to hear how it happened.  Water under the bridge. But without understanding how this happened, what’s to keep it from happening again? This panel will be touching all points related at this years show and since I know you don’t want to miss it, make sure you come. There is a link in the show notes for tickets to WestEdge 2024. Now you can brush up on the topic a little bit with this journey back to Beverly Hills in 2022. And you’ll hear it all, right after this. There you go. All the intrigue you could ever ask for! The origin for the Iconic Architecture panel at WestEdge Design Fair, November 14th-16th at the Barker Hangar is Santa Monica. Make sure you join us.  Thank you to my incredible partner sponsors; ThermaSol, Design Hardware, Pacific Sales, Monogram and TimberTech. These are all fantastic partners with exceptional products and service to match. I have vetted these companies and I believe in them, and I think you should too. Check the show notes for direct links. Thank you for checking them out and specifying them on your next project. I also want to thank you for listening to the show and sharing Convo By Design with your friends, coworkers and colleagues who you think might enjoy it as well. Please also keep the guest and show suggestions coming; convo by design at outlook dot com and on Instagram @convoxdesign, with an “x”. Until next week, be well and take today first. -CXD