Episode 239: Let's Talk About Enmeshment | A Conversation with Dr. Julie Hanks

Curiosity should feel foundational for Latter-day Saints—it's the birthplace of our religious tradition. Any member of the Church can recite the story of young Joseph Smith seeking wisdom he lacked. Curiosity is where any search for God—or for anything beyond ourselves—begins. It's an open stance that can help us get comfortable when we find ourselves unexpectedly dropped into liminal space. Empathy has its origin in curiosity, as does creativity. All of this makes it a perfect wrap for our series of discussions centering change and transition. In Episode 247, Susan and Cynthia explore curiosity. It's a season finale conversation that bridges to our upcoming Season 11 focus: Big Ideas.

In a podcast season devoted to talking about change, it makes sense to revisit some previously covered topics to see whether there's been any. In Episode 246, Cynthia and Susan take another look at a foundational ALSSI discussion: What Women Don't Get In Our Church. What's the official messaging for Latter-day Saint women now, and does it reflect movement? Are we going forward? Backward? Nowhere? And do current narratives around women and our relationship to priesthood reflect actual progress...or not?

Every four years, D&C 132 comes around for study again. If you ask a Latter-day Saint woman what she keeps on her metaphorical faith "shelf," there's a good chance polygamy will be there. It's mostly ignored in contemporary church conversations and teachings, a murky doctrine wrapped in a historical wound that continues to fester, easier to ignore than to heal. Many friends and family members won't even share their true feelings about it with each other. But what are the consequences of our silence around polygamy? How long can we collectively carry this enormous weight we never allow ourselves to set down? Bonus Episode 245 is a rerun of Susan and Cynthia's original conversation about polygamy with Channing and Elise from The Faithful Feminists podcast, an honest exploration of where we've been, where we are, and where we might go next.

Though Section 89 of the Doctrine & Covenants describes itself as a "principle with promise," "to be sent by greeting, not by commandment or constraint," contemporary Church leadership has elevated some of its prohibitions to the level of requirement for temple worship. Other suggestions this section contains seem to be completely ignored. To complicate things, current medical research hasn't always supported the specific tenets that have been designated "commandments." No wonder lots of Latter-day Saints have lots of feelings about the Word of Wisdom and its application in our daily lives and choices! In Episode 244, Cynthia and Susan are joined by historian Linda Hamilton for a conversation unpacking it all. What do you think about the Word of Wisdom? What aspects of it feel relevant to your faith life? What are the narratives of women we find in its history and practice? And what parts of Word of Wisdom lore actually hold up to historical scrutiny?

Each Latter-day Saint's path looks different, a combination of unique experiences, choices, and challenges. No matter how insistent our culture may sometimes feel, no woman fits in a mold. "I think my life began with holding dissonance," explains comedian Whitney Call. "I grew up in a very faithful LDS family...but a little squidgy around the edges. We would go to church and activities every week, and we'd watch the Simpsons together on Sunday nights. We'd bear our testimonies to each other, and we used crude humor about sex." In Episode 243, Cynthia and Susan are joined by Whitney for a wide-ranging conversation about all of it—how it started, how it's going, and one thing she knows right now (or did at the time of recording). CW: pornography, sexuality

No matter what language we use to describe the Divine, for spiritual seekers the hope is that our understanding and connection will continue to expand and deepen. As Richard Rohr reminds us, "God is always bigger than the boxes we build for God, so we should not spend too much time protecting the boxes." In Episode 242, Cynthia and Susan take another look at the spaces where their own 'god-boxes' used to be: It's two women getting personal about what's new, what's not, and where and how they're seeking communion and/or communication now.

Was Joseph Smith a mystic? Searching for the term 'mysticism' on the Church website yields, "See: False Doctrine, Sorcery, Superstitions; Traditions of Men." So it's no wonder many church members haven't thought much about mysticism—the role it may have played in Joseph's experience, or how it might inform their own everyday lives or transform their spiritual practices. But poet Kathryn Knight Sonntag describes it differently: "Trusting the groundless ground, trusting that the darkness or the chaos or the unknown place actually is deeply full of knowing and love and purpose. And that it's ultimately the path into apotheosis. It's ultimately where we begin that journey of becoming divine." In Episode 241, Kathryn joins Susan and Cynthia to explore the concept of mysticism. What might it look like for Latter-day Saints to step off the prescribed map and onto the sacred ground of our own lives in pursuit of personal encounters with God?

We can't get enough of these stories! Bonus Episode 240 features more ALSSI listeners answering the question, "What triggered your faith journey?"

"Differentiation of self is being a unique individual while maintaining connection with people you love," explains Dr. Julie Hanks. "We've been trained, particularly as women, to be enmeshed—to feel other people's pain for them. And that does no one any good. It doesn't help them, and it doesn't help us." On Episode 239, Dr. Hanks joins Cynthia and Susan for a conversation about enmeshment. It has been a core theme in her 30 years of practice as a therapist in Utah, working with families in which "the boundaries are not clear at all and everything's everyone's business." So why are some Latter-day Saints prone to focusing too much on the lives and choices of their children or other family members? Does our church have teachings that actually promote family enmeshment?

"With always wanting to do the right things, take care of people, and people please, this set me up perfectly to be an all-in member. Doing the formula. Hustling! I was married in the temple to a returned missionary, had 4 children, and did everything I could to be a good, righteous LDS woman," explains Lindsie Cornia. Those lines might be the beginning of a million stories in our church, but if there's one thing to be learned from ALSSI, it's that every woman's path is unique and evolving. So what happened next? In Episode 238, Susan and Cynthia have a conversation with Lindsie about all of it: where she started, where she's been, how it's going, what she knows—or doesn't—and how she looks at things now.