Rory Sutherland and Tom Goodwin Fix Marketing (Part 1)

Two of our most popular guests return for a conversation on what’s gone wrong in modern marketing and how to fix it. Rory Sutherland and Tom Goodwin tackle everything from digital overload and bad choice architecture to the disappearance of taglines, long-term thinking, and genuine creativity.Expect behavioural science, contrarian thinking, and plenty of ideas that will make you rethink how marketing really works.Timestamps00:00:00 - Start00:01:31 - Digital overload - are consumers given too much choice?00:05:51 - The power of “Easter Egg Thinking”00:07:54 - Have hotels destroyed choice architecture?00:10:56 - More choice reduction failures00:14:46 - Do consumers need more choice?00:17:45 - How ad agencies can discover real insights00:19:21 - An idea to revolutionise Cannes00:20:49 - Why Rory and Tom think differently00:24:05 - What are the biggest marketing myths today00:30:41 - Fat tailed distribution - the Dulux Dog00:32:18 - Why we need to bring back the tagline00:35:17 - Are marketers too young?00:37:15 - The long term work only pays off after you’re fired00:42:34 - How to we make companies look more long term?00:48:03 - Why people love Ryanair but hate BA00:49:09 - The role of surprise in advertising00:50:43 - Is marketing actually rather easy?01:00:49 - Is the advertising agency model broken?Thank you to our sponsor, System1: https://system1group.com/

Jim Olson has spent his career helping businesses navigate moments of intense pressure from corporate crises to deeply personal challenges, running comms at United Airlines and Starbucks. In this episode, the author of Tailwind shares the lessons he’s learned from leadership, resilience, and facing adversity head-on.Drawing inspiration from Captain Sully’s Hudson River landing, Jim explains why the best crisis leaders follow the same process: aviate, navigate, communicate. We discuss where crisis management often goes wrong, what leaders can learn from failures like United Airlines, and why “black box thinking” matters in both business and marketing.Jim also opens up about his own cancer diagnosis and the mindset that helped him through it.Get Jim's new book, Tailwind here:https://www.amazon.com/Tailwind-Compass-Turning-Setback-Comeback/dp/B0GXCM3VYT/00:00 - Start01:11 - Lessons from Captain Sully’s Hudson River landing06:11 - The black box thinking approach to marketing07:30 - Other crises Jim has had to deal with in his career09:18 - When crisis management goes wrong - United Airlines13:11 - Managing merging two cultures15:27 - The situation when Jim’s CEO had a heart attack18:00 - Jim’s cancer diagnosis23:30 - The power of positive mentality28:30 - Don’t ask yourself what if, ask yourself why not31:34 - The power of a fourth space34:05 - Crisis doesn’t build character, it reveals it37:02 - Leadership lessons from Howard Schultz38:58 - Jim’s advice for those people facing a crisis

Dan Taylor has spent over two decades at Google, helping shape how brands grow through search, media, and technology. Today, he leads global advertising at one of the world’s most influential companies, giving him a front-row seat to the biggest shifts in marketing.In this episode, Dan shares what he’s learned from 20 years at Google, from the importance of simplicity to navigating organisational complexity and the evolving relationship between product and commercial teams. We also dive into the future of search, including AI, new tools like “Circle to Search,” and what it all means for marketers.Timestamps00:00 – Start00:40 – Lessons from being a pilot05:34 – Lessons from 20 years at Google06:43 – How Google has changed over two decades07:46 – The power of simplicity09:02 – Google’s breakthrough moments12:11 – The relationship between commercial and product13:47 – Navigating organisational politics17:08 – The biggest search trends in marketing18:24 – What is “Circle to Search”?20:37 – Opportunities for marketers in new search behaviours24:52 – How AI is changing search25:59 – Does Google see AI as competition?28:09 – Will ads exist in AI search?32:00 – How brands can improve search performance33:42 – Making the most of Google and YouTube35:34 – Measuring the value of brand search39:56 – AI’s impact on creativity45:52 – The one lesson from 20 years at Google

Zena Arnold, CMO of Sephora, joins us to break down how one of the world’s most influential beauty retailers continues to set the standard for brand, community, and culture.From standout branding to record-breaking product launches, Zena shares what’s behind Sephora’s success and how the business stays relentlessly close to its customers in a fast-moving category. We explore the rise of celebrity brands, the power of loyalty, and how Sephora works with creators through initiatives like the Sephora Squad.Thank you to our sponsor, System1: https://system1group.com/Timestamps00:00 - Start01:13 - Zena’s incredible marketing career06:02 - Lessons that turned Zena into the marketer she is today07:41 - What has made Sephora so successful?10:01 - Why Sephora’s branding stands out11:30 - What’s trending in the beauty category in 2026?13:22 - How does Sephora stay close to the customer?14:45 - The biggest brand launch in Sephora history15:25 - How to pitch a beauty brand to Sephora18:00 - How important are celebrity brands?19:03 - Helping brands launch in Sephora21:00 - The power of Sephora’s loyalty programme25:09 - How Sephora attract new customers27:02 - How Sephora uses creators effectively with the Sephora Squad29:45 - How to measure the effectiveness of creators31:12 - The exceptional advertising of Sephora32:49 - How Sephora uses tech in their marketing38:09 - Dealing with the speed of retail39:00 - Creating conditions where you can fail and learn

Rachel Thornton, Enterprise CMO at Adobe, joins us to unpack how one of the world’s leading technology companies is navigating marketing in the age of AI. From brand building in B2B to launching complex software products, Rachel shares what it takes to drive growth at global scale.We discuss the role of major events like Adobe Summit, how AI is transforming both the practice and perception of marketing, and why community and storytelling are becoming more important than ever. Rachel also explains how Adobe balances brand and product marketing, invests in partnerships like sports sponsorships, and what “agentic orchestration” actually means in practice.Timestamps00:00 - Start01:39 - Rachel’s career and what makes a successful CMO04:12 - The importance of brand in B2B08:57 - The role of large events in B2B marketing (like Adobe Summit)12:29 - The biggest changes AI have had in marketing18:06 - How Adobe approaches community in their marketing20:26 - How Adobe use AI in their marketing22:53 - How Tesco use Adobe24:22 - Adobe’s product launches at Summit 202626:50 - What does agentic orchestration mean?28:33 - How to successfully launch new software?29:58 - How Adobe addresses brand vs product marketing?30:57 - Why Adobe invests in sports sponsorships34:26 - The power of storytelling in sport36:07 - The best advice Rachel has received

Nir Eyal returns to the podcast to discuss his latest book, Beyond Belief, and the powerful role belief plays in shaping our behaviour, relationships, and decisions.From the difference between fact, faith, and belief to the surprising ways our perceptions influence what we see, Nir explains how beliefs can be consciously changed and why doing so can transform everything from personal performance to company culture.We also explore the role of belief in branding, including how companies like Liquid Death use anticipation to disrupt entire categories, and why the most successful brands don’t just sell products they shape what people believe.Thank you to System1 for sponsoring Uncensored CMO.https://system1group.com/Timestamps00:00 - Start01:44 - Why Nir wrote a book about belief?05:57 - How powerful can belief be?10:15 - Believing is seeing12:44 - The three powers of belief14:42 - The difference between fact, faith and belief16:05 - How belief can affect relationships17:10 - How to change your beliefs25:52 - How powerful can beliefs be?28:37 - The cautious power of placebo32:59 - Why Liquid Death used the power of anticipation to disrupt water35:59 - Why brand is so powerful37:40 - How our beliefs literally shape what we see39:42 - Why smart people are more unsuccessful41:59 - How beliefs can improve company culture42:57 - When should you quit?47:08 - Why labelling yourself can be self-limiting50:52 - How to build good beliefs

Today, Jon and Kory break down one of the most misunderstood relationships in marketing: working with agencies.From treating agencies as a true force multiplier to fixing broken relationships, they share practical advice on how to get the best out of your partners, and what to do when things inevitably go wrong. This is a candid look at trust, expectations, and why the best results come when agencies feel like part of your team, not just a supplier.Whether you’re managing an agency or working inside one, this episode will change how you think about the relationship.Get Uncensored Renegades every week:Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/uncensored-renegades/id1868870960Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7qnkqq0XSpgif9A5ZNgSpX?si=f181c3a0e9af480cTimestamps00:00 - Start01:20 - Why agencies can be a force multiplier02:11 - How to fix a broken agency relationship04:12 - How to set your agency up for success08:36 - Bringing your agency into your company13:42 - What to do when things go wrong with your agency18:30 - Be tough in victory and gentle in defeat20:17 - What is the cost of changing your agency?

Danny Alexander, co-founder of Who Gives A Crap, joins us to share how a toilet paper brand became a global challenger business while giving away 50% of its profits to charity.From launching with a viral crowdfunding campaign to capitalising on the global toilet paper shortage, Danny breaks down how the brand combined purpose, creativity, and strong fundamentals to stand out in a commoditised category.We also discuss the realities of scaling a mission-led business, the differences between DTC and retail marketing, lessons from failed launches, and how to build a team and culture that lasts. A brilliant look at what it really takes to build a brand people care about.Timestamps00:00 – Start00:29 – The founding story of Who Gives A Crap02:55 – The benefits of having three co-founders05:00 – Naming the company07:07 – Innovating in packaging design10:08 – The story behind the emergency roll10:58 – Why they give away 50% of profits12:53 – Convincing investors to support the mission14:38 – The viral crowdfunding campaign17:33 – Capitalising on the toilet paper shortage22:45 – DTC vs retail marketing24:36 – Most effective marketing campaigns27:46 – Biggest challenges and failures30:53 – A failed brand launch37:08 – Hiring great talent38:32 – The five values of Who Gives A Crap41:14 – Advice for aspiring founders

Today, Jon and Kory explore a simple but often overlooked skill: how to actually find inspiration.From brands like Tony’s Chocolonely to supermarkets, subways, and even nature, they break down why the best ideas rarely come from inside your own company. Instead, inspiration comes from changing your environment, staying curious, and being open to unexpected moments.If you’re feeling stuck, this episode is a reminder that great ideas are everywhere, if you’re willing to look for them.Get Uncensored Renegades every week:Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/uncensored-renegades/id1868870960Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7qnkqq0XSpgif9A5ZNgSpX?si=f181c3a0e9af480cTimestamps00:00 - Start00:32 - Why Jon is inspired by Tony’s Chocolonely06:45 - Why you need to look outside your company for inspiration08:35 - Finding inspiration in nature10:54 - The importance of changing your context12:56 - Getting inspiration in a supermarket14:33 - Getting inspiration on the metro16:57 - Why you need to be open to be inspired

Walter Susini, former CMO of Coca-Cola Europe, joins us to share what it really takes to succeed inside one of the world’s most iconic brands. From the enduring power of “Holidays Are Coming” to the role of jingles and distinctive assets.We also dive into innovation at Coca-Cola, including the lessons from Coke Zero and the failed launch of Coke Energy, and where brands often get innovation wrong.But beyond marketing, Walter offers a candid look at the political reality of being a CMO, a theme he explores in his book Bullsh*t Inc., an unfiltered guide to how companies really operate behind the scenes. Drawing on decades of experience, he shares why performance alone isn’t enough, how decisions actually get made, and what it takes to survive and succeed inside large organisations. Get Walter's book here:https://www.amazon.co.uk/BULLSH-INC-Unfiltered-Survival-Corporate/dp/B0G6PVDM11Sign up to our live event, The Calling, on April 21st here:https://event.uncensoredcmo.com/events/uncensoredcmo/2044861Subscribe to our newsletter, The One Thing:https://newsletter.uncensoredcmo.com/Listen to our new podcast, Uncensored Renegades:Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/uncensored-renegades/id1868870960Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7qnkqq0XSpgif9A5ZNgSpX?si=f181c3a0e9af480cTimestamps00:00 - Start00:58 - Walter Susini’s career journey02:38 - Why Coke ran the holidays are coming ads for so long?05:51 - The power of distinctive assets for Coca Cola - especially jingles08:34 - Why Pepsi used Coke’s polar bear11:50 - What the data says about the Pepsi polar bear ad15:41 - Why Walter is a “Professor of Practice”18:10 - The failed launch of Coke Energy21:29 - Innovation in the drinks industry: launching Coke Zero23:32 - The sweet spot for innovation25:53 - The political reality of being a CMO34:00 - Why Walter’s book cover is yellow37:11 - Why Walter wrote a book on corporate politics40:29 - How to navigate the politics in a business42:27 - Why you can still be fired if your performance is great44:54 - Performance theatre beats actual theatre47:15 - Why decisions don’t get made in meetings47:57 - Why vulnerability and psychological safety are non-existent in business49:33 - Dealing with buzzword hyperfocus53:39 - How to survive the corporate jungle