51: Marcus Mescher - Deformed Consciences

It’s so great to have Marcus Mescher back on the podcast. A couple of months ago, the Sisters of the Little Way published a conversation with Marcus about moral injury. And while Marcus and I have talked about moral injury before, he said some things in that conversation that resonated with some of my personal experiences. So I dove into that more with him. And we discussed some of Pope Leo’s teaching from Magnifica Humanitas about ecclesial repentance and renewal. It was so good speaking with Marcus again!Dr. Marcus Mescher is professor of Christian ethics at Xavier University in Cincinnati, OH. He earned his Masters and PhD at Boston College, specializing in Catholic social teaching and moral formation. He teaches and writes on a range of issues in Christian discipleship, from marriage and family to the impact of digital technology and social networks on moral identity, agency, and relationships to the implications of solidarity for our social, economic, and environmental lives. This academic year, Marcus is serving as Senior Fellow at the Initiative on Catholic Social Thought and Public Life at Georgetown University. He is the author of more than 50 essays for academic and popular audiences, as well as The Ethics of Encounter: Christian Neighbor Love as a Practice of Solidarity (published with Orbis Books). He and his wife Anne are raising three children, ages 8 to 17.LINKS:Sisters of the Little Way: Dr. Marcus Mescher on Moral Injuryhttps://www.sistersofthelittleway.com/p/dr-marcus-mescher-on-moral-injuryMeasuring & Exploring Measuring & Exploring Moral Injury Caused by Moral Injury Caused by Clergy Sexual Abusehttps://www.xavier.edu/moral-injury-report/Pope Francis Generation: Interview with Marcus Mescher on Moral Injury and Clerical Sexual Abusehttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/marcus-mescher-moral-injury-and-clericalMagnifica Humanitashttps://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiv/en/encyclicals/documents/20260515-magnifica-humanitas.htmlABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a Licensed Professional Counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.Third Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

I had a great conversation with Sarah Carter about how apologists/pastors/theologians/influencers (“middle managers”) in the Church have coerced the consciences of the faithful in matters of voting and sex. We also got into a great conversation about conscience and development of doctrine. We made frequent reference to my article from earlier this week:Third Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Today I’m sharing a conversation I had last week with Mike Lewis about Fr. Chad Ripperger of the Archdiocese of Denver. For the past several months, Mike and I have been wanting to record a discussion about Ripperger. Mike has written several really great articles  at Where Peter Is about Ripperger over the last year or two. He is one of the few Catholic journalists who is bringing the many grave concerns about Ripperger to light. We’ve been waiting for the right time to record a conversation and then news broke this week that Ripperger was asked by Archbishop Golka to have a year long “fast” from public speaking. So we thought: Now's the right time.Mike Lewis is the founding managing editor of Where Peter Is. In addition to his work for the site, his writing has appeared in America Magazine, National Catholic Reporter, US Catholic, The Irish Catholic, Catholic Outlook, The Synodal Times, and other Catholic publications. He has been quoted in The Washington Post, Vanity Fair, The New York Post, and other mainstream outlets on Catholic affairs. He previously co-hosted the Field Hospital podcast with Jeannie Gaffigan and The Debrief podcast. Before founding Where Peter Is, he worked in communications at the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and Catholic Climate Covenant. He is married with four children.LINKS:Fr. Ripperger Steps Back: Denver Restricted Him in 2025https://wherepeteris.com/fr-ripperger-steps-back-denver-restricted-him-in-2025/Fr. Ripperger’s Bizarre and Dangerous Views on Womenhttps://wherepeteris.com/fr-rippergers-bizarre-and-dangerous-views-on-women-part-1/Fr. Ripperger’s Disturbing and Harmful Views on Marriagehttps://wherepeteris.com/fr-rippergers-disturbing-and-harmful-views-on-marriage/The bizarre and dangerous views of a celebrity exorcisthttps://wherepeteris.com/the-bizarre-and-dangerous-views-of-a-celebrity-exorcist/ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.Third Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Thank you, Marco for this great conversation about the importance of Amoris Laetita.Articles we referenced:Pope Leo XIV Opening Speechhttps://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiv/en/speeches/2026/october/documents/20261007-anniversario-amoris-laetitia.htmlCardinal Pablo Virgilio David’s addresshttps://www.amorislaetitia.va/content/dam/amorislaetitia/12-october/al-david-eng-original.pdfArchbishop Timothy Costelloe’s addresshttps://www.amorislaetitia.va/content/dam/amorislaetitia/9-october/al-costelloe-eng-original.pdfBishop Erik Varden’s "Laetitiae Amor” articlehttps://coramfratribus.com/life-illumined/laetitiae-amor/ Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Thank you Brad Klingele, Marco, Rachel Amiri, Theresa Westergard, ElizabethMuhleisen, and many others for tuning into my live video with Sarah Carter and Hendro Munsterman! Join me for my next live video in the app.Third Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

I’ve been really enjoying The Moral Revolution Podcast with Laura Segafredo and Tony Annett, especially their ability to explain the histories and differences between socialism, liberalism, social democracy, and Catholic Social Teaching. Also, it’s an election year and, living in Michigan with Abdul El-Sayed running for Senate, I’ve seen renewed use of the word “Socialism” and rhetoric about how Catholics can’t be Socialists. So I wanted to have Tony Annett on my podcast again, this time to talk about Socialism.Anthony Annett is an economist and author whose work sits at the intersection of political economy, democracy, and moral philosophy. He spent two decades at the International Monetary Fund, including as speechwriter to two Managing Directors. He holds a Ph.D. in economics from Columbia University and a B.A. and an M.Litt from Trinity College Dublin. He is also a member of the College of Fellows of the Dominican School of Philosophy and Theology. He helped organize Ethics in Action — an initiative that met regularly at the Vatican and brought together representatives of the major world religions alongside economists, development experts, philosophers, business and labor leaders, philanthropists, and activists to formulate a shared moral framework for addressing major global problems. He is the author of Cathonomics: How Catholic Tradition Can Create a More Just Economy (Georgetown University Press, 2022) and Bread and Ballots: Why Democracy Needs Economic Justice to Thrive (forthcoming, Georgetown University Press, 2027). He is also a co-editor of Ethics in Action for Sustainable Development (Columbia University Press, 2022) and a contributor to The Age of Fraternity: An Economy for the Common Good (forthcoming).Also, I just opened up registration for my next spiritual abuse workshop. This is an online workshop focused on recognizing, preventing, and responding to spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.This workshop is for:* Individuals trying to better understand their experiences of spiritual abuse in the Church* Clergy and lay leaders interested in safeguarding their communities from spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience* Therapists or spiritual directors working with clients who have been spiritually abusedThis workshop will help you:* Recognize and prevent spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Church* Know the symptoms of spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and moral injury* Better understand and respond to abusive systems in the ChurchThis is a live online workshop that meets in a small group over the course of five weeks, beginning on October 26.Visit here for more details:https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-novemberLINKS:The Moral Revolution Podcast https://moralrevolution.substack.comTony’s book: Cathonomics: How Catholic Tradition Can Create a More Just Economyhttps://press.georgetown.edu/Book/CathonomicsPope Francis Generation episode with Tonyhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/interview-with-tony-annett-a-moreABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.Third Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

It was great talking with Sarah Carter about Pope Leo’s catechetical series on Gaudium et Spes! We discussed the Church’s relationship with the world as well as how the Church too often squanders its credibility—and there its witness—to proclaim the common good, human dignity, and, ultimately, the Gospel. Become a paid subscriber to Third Space here: https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribeSubscribe to Pope Leo Weekly here: https://popeleoweekly.substack.com/subscribe“The promulgation of Gaudium et Spes recognized in this discernment an essential element of the nature of the Church, describing her pastoral character as constitutive; hence the definition of ‘pastoral Constitution.’ It is not a question of naïve optimism, but rather a renewed fidelity to the Mystery of Christ who, by becoming incarnate, chooses to share our life: He made Himself ‘like His brethren in every respect’ (Heb 2:17; cf. 4:15) and took upon Himself the consequences of sin, dying ‘as a ransom for all’ (1 Tim 2:6). This sharing in our humanity is the path that Christ calls the Church to follow; hence, the Conciliar Constitution Gaudium et Spes begins by declaring that the Church makes her own ‘the joys and the hopes, the griefs and the anxieties of the men of this age, especially those who are poor or in any way afflicted’” (GS 1). Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Amoris Laetitia was a pivotal document for me in my own deconstruction away from a rigid and transactional faith to a faith grounded on the gratuitous love of God. It’s also a document that I often cite in my work to address spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Church. It has really grieved me how much this document is dismissed and maligned by so many Catholics in the US. So I’m encouraged that Leo is putting it back into the spotlight as a normative teaching for the Church.This live video has four parts* Overview of the upcoming meeting on Amoris Laetitia* Look at the four sections of Amoris that I cite in my work addressing spiritual abuse* The Communion for divorced and remarried Catholics controversy* Time for Questions and ResponseThank you to everyone who joined the live discussion!You see all my notes and citations here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cLs2NXijlhM8rHzFYOaWi98OBsoSyxI-/view?usp=sharing Third Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Over the summer I came across a series of articles on Substack titled, A Proverbial Naked Bike Ride Through Steubenville, Ohio. The author, Lindsay Tsohantaridis, talked about abuse of power  and systemic cultures of abuse within the Franciscan University of Steubenville and wider charismatic community. I found her writing to be insightful and extensively researched. Lindsay was able to put  words to experiences that are really hard to put words to and provided principles and examples that can be applied to any system and subculture within Catholicism. So I was thrilled why she agreed to be on the podcast.Lindsay Younce Tsohantaridis was born and raised in the Pacific Northwest as an evangelical Quaker. At 19, she became Catholic then earned a BA in English and Masters in Teaching from George Fox University. She worked briefly as an actress on stage and film, portraying St Therese of Lisieux in the independent Catholic film Therese, then taught high school English and Drama. She currently lives in Steubenville, Ohio with her husband and seven children, and has scribbled off to the side for the past twenty years, submitting poetry and non-fiction here and there before starting her Substack.Also, I just opened up registration for my next spiritual abuse workshop. This is an online workshop focused on recognizing, preventing, and responding to spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.This workshop is for:* Individuals trying to better understand their experiences of spiritual abuse in the Church* Clergy and lay leaders interested in safeguarding their communities from spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience* Therapists or spiritual directors working with clients who have been spiritually abusedThis workshop will help you:* Recognize and prevent spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Church* Know the symptoms of spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and moral injury* Better understand and respond to abusive systems in the ChurchThis is a live online workshop that meets in a small group over the course of five weeks, beginning on October 26.Visit for here more details:https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-novemberLINKS:A Proverbial Naked Bike Ride Through Steubenville, Ohio (Part 1)https://lindsaytso.substack.com/p/a-proverbial-naked-bike-ride-throughLindsay’s Substackhttps://substack.com/@lindsaytsoSpiritual Abuse Workshophttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-novemberABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.Third Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

It was so good to have this live conversation with Timothy Quigley! This sort-of-impromptu video came from Timothy and I watching and discussing a couple of recent videos of Dominican priests ‘splaining about things they have no understanding of. The priests were exhibiting distilled clericalism, but the problem of clericalism in the Church extends far beyond our east coast friends in white habits.Sources cited:2024 Final Synod Documenthttps://www.synod.va/content/dam/synod/news/2024-10-26_final-document/ENG---Documento-finale.pdfFinal Report, Study Group 5: The Participation of Women in the Life and Leadership on the Churchhttps://www.synod.va/content/dam/synod/process/implementation/10workinggroups/final-reports/sg5/SG-5_ENG_Final-Report.pdfMagnifica Humanitashttps://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiv/en/encyclicals/documents/20260515-magnifica-humanitas.html La croix article https://www.la-croix.com/religion/abus-spirituels-d-anciens-membres-de-communautes-demandent-au-pape-des-reponses-fortes-20260907Dilexi Tehttps://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiv/en/apost_exhortations/documents/20251004-dilexi-te.html Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe