157 - Serious Play and The Road To Joy with Clay Hillman

Step aboard the Punky Steamer and watch everyday moments turn into portals. -> listen to the fantastic tale here! I highly recommend checking this audio play out before listening to the episode. For one it’s awesome and for sure lots of what we talk about will feel deeper and make even more sense.  We sit down with Clay Hillman—once a Lutheran minister, now the imagination behind a toy-and-coffee shop and the audio adventure KC Bonker’s Road to Joy—to explore how play can be both serious and sacred. Clay’s world is richly built: a flying machine crewed by six archetypes of play, potions served with straight-faced wonder, and an audio play that clicks from past to present like a spell taking hold. The result is a practical philosophy of joy that you can taste, touch, and breathe.Clay introduces the Aeronaut, Cartographer, Chronaut, Philosopher, Goggle Jockey, and Tinker—personae that map how children experiment and how adults find vocation. When we keep those roles playful, work feels like meaning rather than grind. We dig into “sacred toys” too: stick, string, plane, block, wheel, and ball. Open-ended objects invite agency; they don’t perform for you, they ask you to perform with them. That’s why a simple paper toy can outshine a pricey gadget—it expands your world instead of prescribing one.Ritual ties it all together. In the shop, dragon blood, beetle juice, and unicorn milk layer in a glass until the final step demands your breath through a one-way straw. That small act completes the drink and inducts you into the story—breath revealing the invisible like a pinwheel turning wind into sight. We trace the same thread through vinyl records, soundscapes, and live showmanship where attention is the real currency. Presence isn’t forced; it’s designed through steps you choose to take.If you’ve ever felt a toy hold more truth than a lecture, or a performance feel like a pact kept, this ride is for you. Hear how myth, craft, and commerce meet without losing soul, and pick out your own play archetype along the way. If it moves you, subscribe, share this episode with a curious friend, and leave a review telling us the one small ritual that brings you wonder.Support the show...If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to contact me about anything, including wanting me to collaborate on one of your projects you can reach me on [email protected] find out more on the Way of the Showman website.you can follow the Way of Instagram where it is, not surprisingly thewayoftheshowman.If you find it in you and you have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

A hat flips, a wig sails, and an arena of sixteen thousand goes from breathless to thunderous—this is where Adam Kugler learned to make comedy work under pressure. We trace his path from the Ringling Brothers train to the Mad Apple stage in Las Vegas, unpacking the paradoxes that shape a clown: technique that opens doors, character that keeps them open, and the relentless practice of reading a room in real time.Adam grew up wanting to be a clown. Juggling paid the bills long enough for artistry to take root. Clown College didn’t hand him a single method; it handed him a map of contradictions. Mask work, European theater, and classic arena gags collided into lessons about energy, body angles, and the atmospheres you can create without adding a single prop. Years later, those ideas proved essential in Vegas, where five minutes of notes from the director migth become a live moment that same night. Working alongside Paul Debek,  (who's coming up in a soon to air episode early next year.) Adam built a shared vocabulary with Paul that let's them improvise with confidence and keep the audience’s attention pointed exactly where it needed to go.We also open the tent flaps on three-ring logistics and the life that supports them: Russian swings timing their crescendos around a teeterboard’s final throw, clowns covering rigging with tight 15-second “walk-arounds,” and a mile-long-feeling train where a five-by-seven cabin becomes a masterclass in living by design. The pay was modest, the repetitions were many, and the growth was real—most breakthroughs happened in front of people. Easy crowds gave permission to risk. Hard crowds demanded clarity. Both taught the same lesson: chase the flow by staying just beyond your current skill, and refine until even tough rooms lean in.If you love circus history, clowning, juggling, or the craft of performance at scale, you’ll find rich detail here: how myths start, how access to schools shapes technique, and why a good gag is a complete story—skill, problem, solution—in seconds. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves live shows, and leave a review telling us the moment that made you fall for the circus.Support the show...If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to contact me about anything, including wanting me to collaborate on one of your projects you can reach me on [email protected] find out more on the Way of the Showman website.you can follow the Way of Instagram where it is, not surprisingly thewayoftheshowman.If you find it in you and you have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

A chainsaw mounted to a sword. Seventeen pumpkins in a minute. And a philosophy that says a show only becomes real when the audience completes it. That’s the ride we take with Jelly Boy the Clown—writer, record-setter, and sideshow artist who turns chaos into craft.We start with the surprise aftermath of America’s Got Talent: millions of viewers, zero promotion allowed, and a door opening from an unexpected direction—Guinness World Records. From there we go inside the workshop, where ideas live first in a sketchbook, then on a bench with bolts and cork, and finally on stage. Why pumpkins beat watermelons, how to create negative space with pitchforks, and what three points of contact do for stability when the saw is humming in your throat. It’s engineering, rehearsal, and risk management wrapped in clown logic.The heart of the talk is presentation. Tools are level one; meaning lives in timing, character, and framing. Jelly Boy shares how he disarms fear—pairing eye hooks with Careless Whisper, mixing menace with sincerity—so the audience leans in. We dig into act architecture: the tennis racket routine evolving through constraints, failed slapstick reappearing later as the perfect chaos engine, and why variety beats repetition for laughs and suspense. Along the way, we trace his films—from a B-movie to a raw fire-recovery doc to Dark Imagination Party—capturing how the pandemic pushed the work from stages to cameras and back again.Threaded through is our host’s upcoming book, Facing The Other Way, a philosophy of showmanship that frames performance as a three-part system: performer, audience, and attention. Without a witness, magic isn’t magic. That idea lands as we talk edits, cuts, and voice—how slicing fifty pages can reveal the core, why a unified tone matters, and how community and small presses help art find its people. If you care about live arts, circus, clowning, sword swallowing, or the creative process of turning rough sketches into resonant moments, this one’s for you.If the conversation hits home, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review. Your attention is the spark—help us keep the fire bright.Support the show...If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to contact me about anything, including wanting me to collaborate on one of your projects you can reach me on [email protected] find out more on the Way of the Showman website.you can follow the Way of Instagram where it is, not surprisingly thewayoftheshowman.If you find it in you and you have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

What makes an audience lean forward before the first trick lands? We dive into stage presence as a lived practice, not a buzzword. From Jay’s house in Stockholm, Frodo and Jay unpack how real attention, honest emotion, and contextual awareness turn raw technique into connection you can feel in the room. No acting notes, no hollow smiles—just the hard, generous work of being here with people, right now.We share the messy path many artists take from hobbyist to performer and why conviction matters before the material is perfect. You’ll hear how a modular show architecture lets you answer a crowd in real time, when quieting down tames a rowdy room, and how three loops—your inner state, the audience’s state, and the social relationship—guide moment-to-moment choices. We talk about reading the room beyond clichés: the corporate ballroom with chairs turned away, the school assembly building to a roar, and the town theater reopening after a flood. Context isn’t decoration; it is the content your presence must meet.Words versus abstraction, authenticity versus mimicry, and the test that cuts through everything: would you want to watch this? We dig into teachable charisma, why about half of presence can be trained, and how to find an archetype that fits your truth instead of chasing someone else’s shine. Craft supports presence—framing, tempo, applause points—but love powers it. Love of practice gives you something worth showing. Love of the audience gives you a reason to share it well. That’s how feeling transmits, Tolstoy-style, from your center to theirs.Support the show...If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to contact me about anything, including wanting me to collaborate on one of your projects you can reach me on [email protected] find out more on the Way of the Showman website.you can follow the Way of Instagram where it is, not surprisingly thewayoftheshowman.If you find it in you and you have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

Some performers step into the light and the room leans in. Others work just as hard and leave us cold. We wanted to know why. Together with juggler and performance thinker Jay Gilligan, we unpack stage presence without the fluff—what it is, how to build it, and why authenticity beats polish every time.We start by challenging the myth that presence is a gift you either have or don’t. Yes, some people radiate charisma from day one. But most of us can raise our baseline by choosing the right lane and aligning our inner life with our outer expression. We explore useful archetypes to find leverage (clown, lover, hermit, magician), and show how mismatched personas create static the audience can feel. Then we get practical with a simple, powerful framework: head (ideas), heart (emotion), hands (skills), and senses (look and sound). When those four line up, presence clicks.Jay and I share stories from street stages and theater runs about entrances that land, silences that speak, and why the “living time” is the beat between tricks. We dig into micro-choices that shift everything—how your eyes acknowledge the crowd, how breath sets tempo, how a half-smile reads as gratitude instead of performance. We talk technique versus embodiment too: you can copy moves and still miss the moment; intention is what makes shape meaningful. Expect grounded advice you can use tonight: choose one beat for connection, test variations on camera, refine details like shoes and sound, and let your true motives shape your mechanics.If you care about connecting—juggling, comedy, magic, music—this conversation will sharpen your instincts and your toolkit. Subscribe, share with a performer who needs a lift, and leave a review with your biggest presence breakthrough. Your story might spark the next one.Support the show...If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to contact me about anything, including wanting me to collaborate on one of your projects you can reach me on [email protected] find out more on the Way of the Showman website.you can follow the Way of Instagram where it is, not surprisingly thewayoftheshowman.If you find it in you and you have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

What separates a technically competent performer from one who creates unforgettable moments? In this captivating conversation between Captain Frodo and comic magician Nick Diffatte, we journey into the heart of showmanship and the complex relationship between originality and tradition.The performers candidly explore their creative anxieties about using established material versus developing original routines. "The reason I'm putting this in here is that this is a book that would have helped me do what I want to be doing," Nick explains, highlighting the delicate balance between learning from others and finding your unique voice. Their discussion reveals how even seasoned professionals wrestle with questions of authenticity while acknowledging their debt to those who came before them.At the core of their conversation lies a fascinating revelation about creating "controlled chaos" – performances that appear spontaneous while following carefully orchestrated plans. Both artists have mastered the art of making audiences think "this could go wrong," generating genuine suspense and emotional investment. This skillful deception creates those special moments where spectators leave saying, "I was there when..." – the hallmark of truly memorable performances.The discussion takes unexpected turns as they reflect on how teaching others has deepened their understanding of their own craft. "You learn about what you do by teaching it to someone, because then you have to actually vocalize what it is that you do," Captain Frodo observes. This process of articulation often reveals unconscious techniques and decisions that elevate performances from merely technical to genuinely artistic.Whether you're a performer seeking to refine your craft or simply fascinated by the psychology behind great entertainment, this episode offers rare insights into the minds of two masters who continue to examine and evolve their art. Subscribe now and join our exploration of the showman's path – where technical skill meets meaning, and apparent chaos reveals its hidden design.Support the show...If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to contact me about anything, including wanting me to collaborate on one of your projects you can reach me on [email protected] find out more on the Way of the Showman website.you can follow the Way of Instagram where it is, not surprisingly thewayoftheshowman.If you find it in you and you have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

Ever wondered where the line between inspiration and appropriation lies in performance art? Captain Frodo welcomes comedian-magician Nick Diffatte for a candid exploration of originality in magic that will resonate with creators across all disciplines.Nick takes us behind the scenes of Tannen's Magic Camp—an intensive gathering where 120 young magicians (ages 10-20) immerse themselves in the craft under the guidance of working professionals. You'll feel like you're wandering the Hogwarts-like halls of Bryn Bawr College as Nick describes the transformation these young performers undergo when they realize they're not alone in their passion. The teaching methodology is fascinating: forcing students to perform on day one breaks down barriers, creating a safe space where they can be vulnerable enough to truly learn.The conversation shifts into territory rarely discussed publicly—the ethical questions performers face when developing material. Through the lens of what Nick calls "the Elvis analogy," they explore how performers can honor magical traditions while still finding their authentic voice. When does a borrowed trick become truly yours? How much must you change something before claiming ownership? The answers aren't simple, but they're essential for anyone who creates.Most compelling is their shared vulnerability about their own creative processes. Captain Frodo confesses his insecurity about performing routines developed by others, while Nick reveals his struggles publishing instructional material that walks the line between teaching technique and sharing complete performance pieces. Their honesty strips away the mystery often surrounding creative work, revealing the human questions that haunt even the most accomplished performers.Whether you're a magic enthusiast or simply someone who appreciates the creative process, this episode offers rare insights into how art evolves through generations while remaining true to its roots. Subscribe now and join the conversation about what it means to create something truly original in a world built on shared traditions.Support the show...If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to contact me about anything, including wanting me to collaborate on one of your projects you can reach me on [email protected] find out more on the Way of the Showman website.you can follow the Way of Instagram where it is, not surprisingly thewayoftheshowman.If you find it in you and you have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

Ever wondered what happens when a circus performer's act goes "wrong"? In this intimate conversation with East German circus artist Antje Pode, we explore how the most powerful moments of connection often emerge from embracing unexpected challenges on stage.Ancha shares her extraordinary journey through the fall of the Berlin Wall – a time when her entire professional identity was upended as state-sponsored circus dissolved overnight. We explore the magnificent marble circus buildings of the Soviet Union, where performers were celebrated like opera stars, receiving flowers from adoring audiences. Her transition from government employee to freelancer reveals the profound personal impact of political change that went far beyond headlines.The heart of our conversation centers on Ancha's accidental creation of a revolutionary aerial apparatus. What began as an attempt to make a standard rope less painful led to a breakthrough when she deconstructed it into 86 separate strings. The resulting visual effect creates mesmerizing patterns like tornados or water vortices as she performs. But this innovation comes with inherent unpredictability – strings occasionally tangle, creating unexpected challenges during performance.What started as frustration evolved into profound insight: audiences engage more deeply when witnessing performers overcome obstacles. As we discuss, "Your true character can really come out when you're facing a problem." In an age of digital perfection, witnessing a performer struggle and triumph creates a uniquely human experience that no flawless execution can match.Whether you're a performer yourself or simply fascinated by the human capacity for adaptation and creativity, this conversation offers valuable perspective on finding opportunity in apparent setbacks. Subscribe to the podcast to join us for more explorations of showmanship across disciplines and traditions.Support the show...If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to contact me about anything, including wanting me to collaborate on one of your projects you can reach me on [email protected] find out more on the Way of the Showman website.you can follow the Way of Instagram where it is, not surprisingly thewayoftheshowman.If you find it in you and you have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

Step back in time to a vanished world of state-run circus schools, train journeys across the Soviet Union, and the dramatic moment when the Berlin Wall fell. In this captivating conversation, foot juggler Antje Pode shares her remarkable journey from a young gymnast in East Germany to an internationally acclaimed circus artist.Antje reveals the fascinating, rarely-discussed reality of the communist-era circus system, where performers were government employees with guaranteed lifetime positions. Selected from hundreds of applicants at age 17, she trained in the prestigious East German circus school before touring with the state circus. Her vivid descriptions transport us to a time when circus was considered high art, performers lived in caravans on flatbed train cars rolling through Russia, and elephants walked from train stations to circus lots as mobile advertisements.The political and personal merge dramatically as Antje recounts being thousands of miles from home in Moldova when the Berlin Wall unexpectedly fell in November 1989. Through her eyes, we experience both the hope and uncertainty of that pivotal moment in history, learning how the peaceful Monday demonstrations eventually led to revolution without violence.Beyond historical insights, Antje shares the technical mastery behind her extraordinary foot juggling act, where she manipulates suitcases with remarkable precision while balancing, spinning, and juggling simultaneously. Her description of needing three weeks to adapt to a new suitcase reveals the invisible precision required in circus arts.Whether you're fascinated by political history, circus traditions, or the dedication required for artistic mastery, this conversation offers a unique window into a world that has largely disappeared. Subscribe now to hear more conversations that explore the intersection of showmanship, art, and human experience.-You can find Antje Pode on social media and on her website Antjepode.deSupport the show...If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to contact me about anything, including wanting me to collaborate on one of your projects you can reach me on [email protected] find out more on the Way of the Showman website.you can follow the Way of Instagram where it is, not surprisingly thewayoftheshowman.If you find it in you and you have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo

 What if imagination isn't a distraction from truth, but our only reliable path to experiencing it?In this episode we conclude our 30-part exploration of showmanship through the lens of play. Using a personal case study of creating a plate-spinning poetry act, we witness how true artistic creation evolves organically—not as random elements slapped together, but as a cohesive vision that transcends its individual components.The journey takes an unexpected turn when the pandemic transforms both the physical performance and its meaning. Standing amidst twelve wobbling plates with a flaming book of poetry, we discover that sometimes the most powerful moment comes not from triumphantly saving everything from collapse, but from creating a sacred space for what matters most while the world metaphorically burns around us.We explore the wisdom of foxes—both from Ylvis Brothers' viral hit and Antoine de Saint-Exupéry's The Little Prince—about establishing meaningful ties that make each of us unique in all the world. The real-life Lord of the Flies story reveals how six shipwrecked boys thrived through cooperation rather than descending into savagery, challenging our often-cynical views of human nature.At its heart, this exploration reveals play as the compass that guides us through life's overwhelming possibilities. By pursuing activities that satisfy the five criteria of play, we unlock not just enjoyment but all human behavioral needs—from creativity and wonder to love and friendship. The world changes when we view it through the lens of play, revealing better ways of being with ourselves and each other.Take some time to play with yourself and those you love. After all, play might just be the most serious undertaking we can pursue.Support the show...If you want to help support this podcast it would be tremendous if you wrote a glowing review on iTunes or Spotify.If you want to contact me about anything, including wanting me to collaborate on one of your projects you can reach me on [email protected] find out more on the Way of the Showman website.you can follow the Way of Instagram where it is, not surprisingly thewayoftheshowman.If you find it in you and you have the means to do so, you can suport the podcast financially at:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/captainfrodo