TCC Podcast #464: Creating Customer Journeys with Rob Marsh

Planning for the unexpected is one of those skills that successful people have. But you can't plan for everything. This episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast features my guest, Dani Paige, who has become an expert in figuring out how to move forward when you have to deal with the unexpected. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Dani's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Sometimes you can plan for change. Other times you can’t—and you have to adjust anyway. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. One of the strategies we teach in The Copywriter Accelerator and our other programs where we talk about getting things done is planning ahead for when things don’t go as planned. It’s pretty easy to set goals and expect the future to behave as expected. But the reality almost always turns out differently. So you might come up with a plan to spend next Friday creating a new product or service, strategizing who its for, the various things to include to make it valuable, and so on. But then Friday arrives and you’re not feeling well, or a friend from out of town calls and wants to see you, or a family emergency ends up taking up a significant chunk of your day. What happens then? Planning for the invevitable things that go wrong is a huge part of success. Thinking through the options before they happen can help keep you on top of things. But you can’t plan for everything. A lot of copywriters we’ve had on the podcast have shared that a career they planned on pursuing turned out to be less than they expected. And they make an unplanned switch to writing copy. But there are other ways that life throws you a curveball and you need to quickly adjust expectations and behaviors to make things work. My guest on the podcast today is Dani Paige. She started a corporate career that didn’t go as planned and found copywriting as a result. She’s changed the services she offers more than once. And she’s tried things she thought would work that failed. More recently, she made changes to her business to prepare for maternity leave. Everything was ready to support her new family situation but once again, things turned out differently than she had planned. So how do we as copywriters adjust on the fly when things don’t turn out the way we expect them to. That’s a big part of what we talked about on today’s episode. Dani and I also talked about her journey into copywriting and how she learned to write sales pages and launch copy… if you want to write those kinds of projects, you can learn a lot from Dani and her approach to learning these skills. And what Dani says about community and connection is a theme that has come up several times in the last few months here on the podcast. If you’re not building connections and participating in communities, you are not building a skill that is critical for your future success. There’s a lot of good stuff in this episode so stick around. Before we get to my discussion with Dani Paige, this episode is brought to you by Research Mastery. Research Mastery is the one-stop program or course that will change your writing for the better. Instead of just organizing words, you’ll have the tools and strategies you need to truly understand your customer so they relate to your offer and buy more often. Research Mastery digs into the 4 critical areas of research… if you miss one of them, your research just isn’t complete. And it includes the A.I. tools you need to do research faster, more effectively, and more profitably. You can learn more about this unqiue program at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery  And now my interview with Dani Paige.

Want to get more clicks? More sales? More clients? Then understanding why humans act the way they do will help. In his new book, Hacking the Human Mind, author Michael Aaron Flicker shares dozens of psychological "hacks" that copywriters should understand before they write copy. Michael Aaron is our guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Hacking the Human Mind by Michael Aaron Flicker The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Want more responses, sales, and customers? Let’s hack the human mind. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. Several months ago, I was fortunate enough to get an advanced copy of a book called, Hacking the Human Mind. Now… if you have a book and want me to read it, giving it a title like Hacking the Human Mind and including ideas and insights from behavioral science, neuro marketing, and psychology is pretty much guaranteed to get my attention. But this book goes one step farther by looking at marketing in the real world then searching for the psychology that explains why something works. The approach basically flips the usual marketing tactic to-do list from: here are a bunch of psychological triggers… exclusivity, scarcity, risk removal, curiosity and so on… make sure you include them all into your sales process, and instead look for what works already and figuring out why it works. That’s a bit different from the usual approach. So I asked one of the authors, Michael-Aaron Flicker to talk with me about some of the concepts from the book.  We talked about the Pratfall or Blemish effect and how to turn a product flaw into an asset. There are very few perfect products in the world, so understanding how to use this effect in your copy is incredibly useful. We also talked about how to address product changes in a way that doesn’t generate backlash. We’ve seen customers revolt against design and formulation changes over the last few years—Kraft Mac and Cheese did it the right way. And to hear that story, you’ll have to keep listening to this episode. Another idea we talked about is offer simplicity… we’re often tempted to stack feature on feature and then benefit upon benefit. We do this to pile on the good stuff and make our offers more valuable to our clients. But the actual effect may be the exact opposite. Again, to hear how that works you’ll want to keep on listening. One thing Michael Aaron points out that it takes more than knowing about a particular psychological effect or persuasion trigger, often you need to find new and innovative ways to use these triggers. Before we get to my discussion with Michael Aaron, this episode is brought to you by Research Mastery. Research Mastery is the one-stop program or course that will change your writing for the better. Instead of just organizing words, you’ll have the tools and strategies you need to truly understand your customer so they relate to your offer and buy more often. Research Mastery digs into the 4 critical areas of research… if you miss one of them, your research just isn’t complete. And it includes the A.I. tools you need to do research faster, more effectively, and more profitably. You can learn more about this unqiue program at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery  And now my interview with Michael Aaron Flicker. Transcript summary coming soon.

Writing for clients is just one way to build a copywriting business. Once you've done that for a while, you may decide it's not right for you. So what does the alternative look like? I invited copywriter Krystle Church to join for for the 266th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast to talk about that and a lot more. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Krystle's Email List The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Research Mastery   Partial Transcript: Rob Marsh: When your business stops working for you, what can you do to fix things? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. There are a lot of copywriters who build a successful business writing for clients. Or maybe they build an agency around their offers and niche. But then after a few years they don’t love the business they created for themselves. Sometime we just burn out and need to do something a bit different. Maybe they no longer want employees or contractors. Maybe they get tired of working directly with clients. Maybe they realize that instead of using their skills to attract customers to other peoples businesses, they decide to use their skills to sell products to their own clients. And then many of us are entrepreneurs at heart and have always wanted to build a business other than writing for a list of clients. Shifting a business from offering services to clients to something else can be a challenge. It’s a very different kind of work. Instead of creating assets for clients, you may spend your time creating assets for your own business, then spending even more time getting attention for your offers. For many copywriters, this is the dream—a copywriting business with customers instead of clients. But there’s a lot of work that goes into a business switch like this. Validating offers. Finding a client base for your offers—which is almost certainly a very different set of clients than you’ve been writing for. Building out marketing systems to sell your new products. Figuring out how to deliver value when you’re not actually delivering copy. I wanted to talk about this with someone who’s gone through the process recently. So I invited copywriter and coach Krystle Church to come back to the podcast and talk about the changes she’s made to her business over the past couple of years. The business Krystle has today is very different from the one she was running two years ago. She’s excited about the new direction and having more fun than when she was burning out with a calendar full of projects that required her attention from the time she woke up until she went to bed at night. If you’ve been thinking about re-imagining your business, this episode may give you a few ideas to try. You’ll get a few tips about validating a new offer. And you might even decide to dabble with an offer for your niche that at least gives you a taste of what a different kind of business would feel like. This kind of business isn’t for everyone. In fact, it’s probably not for most copywriters. But it’s worth thinking about how you might be able to add to or change your business so it fits your needs a bit better. Before we get to my discussion with Krystle, this episode is brought to you by Research Mastery. Research Mastery is the one-stop program or course that will change your writing for the better. Instead of just organizing words, you’ll have the tools and strategies you need to truly understand your customer so they relate to your offer and buy more often. Research Mastery digs into the 4 critical areas of research… if you miss one of them, your research just isn’t complete. And it includes the A.I. tools you need to do research faster, more effectively, and more profitably. You can learn more about this unqiue program at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery  And now my interview with Krystle Church.

Copywriters are teachers. We teach customers how the products and services we write about help them. In this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I spoke with teacher turned copywriter Meredith Cooley about all the ways copywriters use their teaching skills. Even if you don't think you're a teacher, you'll learn a lot from this episode—including a simple copywriting lesson from Bluey. Yes, that Bluey. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Turn the Page Newsletter The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Research Mastery   Transcript: Rob Marsh: Copywriters are teachers. So should more teachers be copywriters? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. A few years ago I had a conversation with one of my copywriting mentors. She mentioned that she had considered teaching as a possible career path. And I shared that I had the same thought when I started my career. Then we talked about the number of former teachers we knew who had left the classroom to write copy. And that’s when it dawned on me that copywriting isn’t just something that former teachers or potential teachers do.  Copywriting is teaching. But instead of practicing that skill in a classroom, copywriters are teaching on the page or on the screen, helping potential customers learn about products and solutions, about processes and unique mechanisms, and how to solve the very real problems and pains they are experiencing in their lives. In the years since, I’ve interviewed close to a dozen former teachers on this podcast… people who are still teaching, just not in a formal classroom any more. Do you feel this as a copywriter? Do you see yourself as a teacher for your clients and their customers? My guest for today’s podcast is Meredith Cooley, a teacher turned copywriter who has helped dozens of other teachers leave the classroom and become copywriters for various businesses around the world. Teachers have so many skills that copywriters need, from project management to engaging with stakeholders at various levels of a business. And perhaps most importantly, good teachers have to be able to take dry, boring content and make it exciting for an often disinterested and bored audience. And if you listened to last week’s episode, you heard me talk about how I’ve started teaching marketing at a local college here in my home town. The crossover between teaching students and writing for customers is large. And that’s what this episode is all about. Even if you don’t see yourself as a teacher, this episode may change your mind about how you think about your relationship with the customers you write for. Before we get to our interview, this episode is brought to you by Research Mastery. Research Mastery is the one-stop program or course that will change your writing for the better. Instead of just organizing words, you’ll have the tools and strategies you need to truly understand your customer so they relate to your offer and buy more often. Research Mastery digs into the 4 critical areas of research… if you miss one of them, your research just isn’t complete. And it includes the A.I. tools you need to do research faster, more effectively, and more profitably. You can learn more about this unqiue program at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery  And now my interview with Meredith Cooley.

This episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is another guest-less show. It's just Rob sharing a few thoughts about the importance of creating customer journeys for the products you write for so you're actually addressing your customer's needs and not just your clients. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Research Mastery   What we talked about: Transcript is underway...

What's the biggest opportunity for copywriters today? That's just one of the ideas we talked about on this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Tiana Asperjan is my guest and we talked about how she became a copywriter, her "secrets" for connecting with clients, showing up consistently even when things are uncomfortable, and the biggest opportunities for writers today. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Tiana’s YouTube Tiana’s Newsletter The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Research Mastery   Highlights from this episode: Rob Marsh: What is the biggest opportunity in copywriting today? We’re about to reveal the answer. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. When inviting guests to share their experiences on this podcast, I often look for writers who are doing something a little bit differently than their peers are doing. Someone who has a different approach, a unique viewpoint on something, or maybe they’re testing things that the rest of us just aren’t up to speed on yet. My guest on today’s podcast is Tiana Asperjan. Lately I’ve been seing Tiana everywhere… although that might just be a function of the algorithm showing me more stuff like the stuff I’ve seen recently. If you’re a copywriter, Tiana’s Youtube channel, social media feed, and newsletter are excellent. She’s teaching what works in ads and copy right now. But she doesn’t just say what’s working, she focuses on the strategy and psychology behind an ad so you know not just that it works, but why it works. She’s doing things a bit differently from a lot of other copywriters and most of us who are sharing ideas and insights about copywriting with other writers. So I asked her to join me on today’s episode and boy am I glad that I did. I like all of the interviews I share with you each week, but this one really stands out. Tiana’s story of how she got to where she is is a masterclass on the steps to success as a writer. It’s less about the destination, and more about accumulating the experiences and expertise you need to be great. I think as you listen in, you’ll learn a lot from Tiana’s experiences. As for the answer to that question I posed at the opening of this episode… what’s the biggest opportunity for copywriters working today who want to stay relevant for years to come? Well, you’ll just have to listen to this episode because Tiana reveals what it is and why this particular “niche” —and I’ve got niche in air quotes here—is where more copywriters ought to be focusing their efforts today. If you want a look at a industry or niche that is desperate for help from good copywriters, you’ll want to keep listening. Before we get to all that, this episode is brought to you by Research Mastery. Research Mastery is the one-stop program or course that will change your writing for the better. Instead of just organizing words, you’ll have the tools and strategies you need to truly understand your customer so they relate to your offer and buy more often. Research Mastery digs into the 4 critical areas of research… if you miss one of them, your research just isn’t complete. And it includes the A.I. tools you need to do research faster, more effectively, and more profitably. You can learn more about this unqiue program at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery

Newsletters are a big opportunity that many copywriters are ignoring to the detriment of their own businesses. For the 462nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I invited newsletter strategist Ciler Demiralp to talk about the newsletter industry and how writers can take advantage of this emerging industry. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Newsletter Circle Ciler's LinkedIn The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Here's a summary of the episode:

Want to do more than "write" copy? Then you need to get involved with your client's projects before they decide what they're going to do. And to explain how you do that, copywriter Jamie Thomson joins me on The Copywriter Club Podcast. We talked about his process for going from discovery call to paid workshop and then paid project on this episode. You don't want to miss it. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Jamie's website Jamie's free Strategist Copywriter Course The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: If you’re a copywriter who wants more input into the work you do and more money for contributing your insights early, keep listening. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. Far too many copywriters are content taking an assignment from a client and simply writing the words. In fact, there are thousands of copywriters and content writers who think that’s what copywriting is—choosing the right words to make a client sound good. They even call themselves wordsmiths as if all they’re doing is coming up with the words. Now obviously, writing the words is a big part of what we do. Often, it’s the only obvious part of a project that we can point to and say, that’s my work. But great copywriters don’t start with writing the words. They get involved in their client’s projects much earlier in the process. Before design direction is figured out. Before the brand voice is settled. Even before a client decides what exactly they need to solve the marketing problem they have. This is where copywriters should start on a project. That work is strategy… deep diving on the problem to be solved and exploring the various ways to find a solution, some of which might not even be copywriting-focused. Okay, so how do you do it. My guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Jamie Thomson. Jamie takes his clients from discovery call to paid workshop to project in a process that immediately puts him in charge of driving the strategy for a project. It’s a process that makes him significantly more valuable and critical to the success of a project than simply taking a project from a client and writing the copy. What’s more, because Jamie plays such an important role in his projects, and his impact is obvious to his clients, they often come back for even more work which takes the pressure off client-finding and allows him to spend more time client serving. In the age of A.I., when the machines can write copy faster than you can… and yes I know, it’s not as good, but can your clients tell the difference? So in the age of A.I., this is one strategy that makes you more valuable as a copywriter who solves problems and gets paid to do it. If that sounds interesting to you, then stick around. And if that doesn’t sound interesting to you, maybe Jamie’s soothing Scottish accent will be enough to keep you engaged. It works for me. No matter what kind of copywriting business you want for yourself, The Copywriter Underground is packed with resources to show up as a business owner—not just a freelancer—to help you find clients, and solve big problems that clients are happy to pay big money to get off their plates. From copywriting and business templates to get you started (including a legal document and a proven onboarding process) to workshops to help you build your authority, attract clients, create products and services your clients want to buy, how to be more strategic and a lot more—The Underground is like a starter-kit for your writing business… It’s a complete business-in-a-box that you can plug into your own business and hit play. As questions come up, you have access to our private slack community, monthly group coaching, and regular feedback on your copy. I’ve been inside a lot of memberships and The Underground is the best value for content writers and copywriters I’ve ever seen.

What's the best word to describe a hard-working freelance copywriter? How about feisty? On the 460th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, content strategist and author, Suzanne Bowness, shares the concepts from her new book appropriately called, The Feisty Freelancer. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The Feisty Freelancer Website The Feisty Freelancer Book The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: What’s the best adjective to describe a hardworking, client-pleasing, financially successful copywriter? How about feisty? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. When it comes to freelancing, this is no one right way to do things. There are thousands of niches to serve. Millions of clients with millions of needs. There are hundreds of ways to find those clients and thousands more ways to solve their problems. But every writer who owns their own business has lots of things in common with others doing the same thing. And if you try to describe them… especially those freelancers who are actually finding clients, doing good work, and earning enough to make a living, well one word that comes to mind is feisty. The feisty freelancer brings energy to their work. They’re not afraid to stand up for themselves or the clients they’re writing for. And they even might be a little playful. The Feisty Freelancer is also the name of a new book written by content writer and former Think Tank member, Suzanne Bowness. Sue’s book is a primer for freelancers of all kinds—not just writers—who want to do more than struggle for scraps. The feisty freelancer has what it takes to succeed. This is Sue’s second appearance on the podcast. The first one happened almost three years ago. It’s episode #319 if you want to check it out. Given Sue’s expertise as a freelancer, it’s probably not a coincidence that some of the ideas we talked about then made it into the book. But it’s been a while since we had that discussion, so I took the opportunity to ask Sue about the topics she covers in her book. Things like pitching, working with corporate clients, marketing a writing business, strategies for being productive and getting things done. We even talked about whether freelancing is something people should be considering at all today. I think you’ll like what she had to share. Before we get to my interview with Sue, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. The Underground includes monthly coaching and expert workshops, an accountability group to keep you moving toward your goals, and more than 70 different workshops  to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. Recently I asked a new member why she joined the Underground and she said she did it for the copy reviews. She wanted feedback on her work to help her improve her writing. And where many writing coaches charge as much as $1500 to look at a single sales page, you can get unlimited reviews in The Underground for less than $90 a month. Honestly this just might be the best value in the copywriting world. You can learn more by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2. And now, my interview with Sue Bowness…     Transcript is underway...

Clients need strategy. But they don't always know that's what they need. So how do you sell it to them? How do you ensure your work is strategic even if all your client wants is a few emails? My guest for the 459th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is copywriter Kristen Vanderhoek who specializes in strategy. She spills the secrets for selling strategy to your prospects on this episode. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: CursorAndInk.com The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Is strategy a big part of your copywriting business? If it isn’t now, it probably should be. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. Every client needs a strategy. But they don’t always see it that way. They just want the emails or the web site or the launch plan. But it’s the strategy that ensures that the deliverables go to the right person, include the right message, have the right call to action—all at the right time. Clients want the deliverables and the benefits of the strategy, but they don’t always connect the two. So it becomes your job as the copywriter or content strategist to connect the dots for them, to show how strategy leads to better copy and content. On this episode of the podcast, my guest is Kristen Vanderhoek, a copywriter who focuses on brand strategy. We talked about how to approach strategy projects—Kristen shared exactly how she does it. And we talked about how you sell strategy to clients who usually just want to deliverable. We also talked about Kristen’s HOME framework, the step-by-step process she follows when working with clients to ensure they get well-thought out, strategic copy and design. Finally, one of Kristen’s differentiators is her white-glove service. She takes steps to make working with her feel like a high-end experience and makes sure her clients aren’t left wondering what’s going on, or feeling like they overpaid because the presentation at the end of the project isn’t just a file hand-off. If you’re a copywriter who is ready to level up the projects you work on and the way you deliver that work to your clients, you’ll want to listen to this interview. Before we get to my interview with Kristen, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. The Underground includes monthly coaching and expert workshops, an accountability group to keep you moving toward your goals, and more than 70 different workshops  to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. Recently I asked a new member why she joined the Underground and she said she did it for the copy reviews. She wanted feedback on her work to help her improve her writing. And where many writing coaches charge as much as $1500 to look at a single sales page, you can get unlimited reviews in The Underground for less than $90 a month. Honestly this just might be the best value in the copywriting world. You can learn more by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2. And now, my interview with Kristen Vanderhoek… Transcript coming....