Dare to THINK DIFFERENTLY with Harvard Professor Gerald Zaltman (ep. 213)

What if the biggest limit on your leadership isn’t your skills or your strategy…  but how you THINK? Harvard Business School emeritus professor Gerald Zaltman joins Andrea to discuss his latest book, Dare to Think Differently, and the six research-based techniques that help you tap into the creative power of your subconscious mind. Gerald’s work spans cognitive neuroscience, art therapy, and linguistics. His insights are as relevant for leaders navigating complex decisions as they are for anyone trying to have a real conversation across a divide. We cover the six qualities of an open mind, including serious playfulness, befriending ignorance, and asking the right discovery questions, plus why imagination may be the most underused leadership skill, and how humility, courage, and discipline work together to make real thinking possible. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube CONNECT WITH GERALD 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gerald-zaltman-112634162/ 📖 Read Dare to Think Differently: https://amzn.to/4emjID5 BOOKED MENTIONED 📖  Consilience by Edward O. Wilson – https://amzn.to/49vQPRq 📖  An Immense World by Ed Yong – https://amzn.to/42z9054 TRANSCRIPTION Gerald Zaltman: An adaptive mindset means you have to be willing to reflect on how you’re thinking and assess its suitability to the current situation, and that’s what I mean by an open mind.  Andrea Wojnicki: That was Harvard Business School Emeritus Professor Gerald Zaltman. I am really excited about this episode. The truth is, I’m excited about every episode of Talk About Talk for a variety of reasons. For this episode in particular, I’m excited to introduce you to one of my favorite people on this planet. If you haven’t met him before, Gerald Zaltman is one of the wisest and most generous folks that you will ever meet. I’m sure you’ll agree after you’re done listening to this episode.  Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk.  Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, and I’m your executive communication coach. My goal with this podcast is to coach you to improve your confidence and your credibility at work so you can achieve your career goals. You can learn more about me and what we do at TalkAboutTalk if you go to TalkAboutTalk.com. Daring to Think Differently in a Rapidly Changing World  Okay. As a leader, you may have noticed how open-mindedness creates exceptional decision-making, but how exactly do you ensure that you have an open mind? Great question. This episode is gonna challenge you to think about how you think. It will encourage you to think twice about your own thought patterns, about your assumptions, about your biases. This episode may even dare you to think differently, which happens to be the name of Gerald’s latest book, Dare to Think Differently. When I learned recently that Gerald was writing another book, I scooped it up right away, devoured it, and then I contacted him to set up an interview, and here we are, finally. Instead of summarizing this episode with three insights like I typically do at the end, instead, I’m gonna challenge you to consider each of the six research-based techniques that will help you tap into the creative power of the subconscious. Yes, there are six. In our conversation, Gerald and I go through each of these six, and you can also reference them in the Talk About Talk podcast show notes on whatever podcast platform you’re on. Again, my challenge to you is to consider which one or two of these six techniques you’re gonna commit to try experimenting with to cultivate your own open mind.  About the Guest: Harvard Professor and Thinking Expert Gerald Zaltman  Let me tell you a little bit about Gerald now, and then we’ll get into this. Gerry, or Gerald Zaltman, is an emeritus professor at the Harvard Business School. Decades ago, I had the great privilege of learning directly from him in seminars, and then he served on my dissertation committee. Gerald also served as an executive committee member of Harvard’s Mind, Brain, and Behavior Interfaculty Initiative. You’re gonna see that this is a theme with Gerald, interfaculty, cross-disciplinary thinking. Over his career, Gerald pioneered the use of tools and insights from cognitive neuroscience, art therapy, and linguistics to understand subconscious customer thoughts and feelings. He’s a co-founder and senior partner in the research-based consulting firm of Olson Zaltman Associates, or OZA, whose clients include some of the world’s most respected firms and brands. Here we go. Thank you so much, Gerald, for joining us here today to talk with me and the Talk About Talk listeners about thinking about our thinking.  GZ: Well, I’m delighted to be here, and I’ve been looking forward to this, uh, ever since you raised the possibility. I’ve always enjoyed our conversations, in particular your questions. They always make me think and often differently as well.  AW: Thank you so much for saying that, Gerald. That really means a lot. Okay, here’s the first question. It’s really the origin story for the book. What made you want to write this book? What was the problem that you are trying to solve? Is it related to AI? Is it related to the polarization of our society? What’s the origin story here?  GZ: The book was conceived after I had been spending a lot of time investigating why it is that people, even within the same family, same workspace, people who would otherwise be very close friends or had been close friends, suddenly found themselves not talking with one another or speaking to one another. And that’s because certain topics, uh, arose that were highly politicized. And to hold a contrary position or even a position that you’re actively thinking about was received as a very concerning character flaw by others. And I was experiencing that toward others, even in my family, you know. And we were becoming what I, I thought of as a family of strangers, just socially. There were certain topics that were off limits, and they were growing in number, and the consequences of putting them within the limits of a conversation were increasingly painful. And as I was working on that, I wrote a, a paper on that. I realized that ultimately, what I was addressing there are contrasting, even clashing, not thinking styles, but clashing thoughts. And I felt that there was some other problem operating. And the problem that I found operating to produce that was also the problem I was finding in companies with executives, that there were pockets of thinking that were considered, and, and ways of thinking that were considered, in effect, sacred, and that needed some investigation. And so I decided to follow my favorite tool, the one that I find suits me best when I’m pondering, trying to understand the origins and nature of a problem, and that was with ZMet. And I began, uh, with a team of people doing ZMet interviews with executives on how they approach messy or difficult problems, which were the ones that were often very divisive within a firm. And eventually, I thought, since I’m working so hard on this, I might as well turn it into a book, which I find a very effective device for disciplining yourself and forcing yourself to understand what you don’t yet understand, to identify that. So that’s kind of a long story to the origins of the book, but that’s pretty much how it began. AW: I remember having conversations in your office, Gerald, about the fact that you would encourage me to think about something and then not worry if I can’t solve it, and walk away and work on other things, and my brain would be non-consciously focusing on whatever that problem was. And also, directly related to what you just said, you encouraged me to write as a way of thinking. Don’t wait until you have all the answers to start writing, and I found that to be so true, especially now I’m writing a book and I’m introducing the readers to some processes that I coach people on, and actually, as I’m writing the book, I’m coming up with better processes, right?  GZ: The book is better because of my having that very same style of writing. It’s a way of interrogating yourself, and you can be unforgiving and not suffer as a result. So just a very productive, uh, device.  AW: So it’s about being open-minded. Back to the executives that you mentioned you’re thinking about, uh, when you were doing the ZMed as well. You’re, you said it was a problem you first noticed with your family, and then business executives were also experiencing the same thing, or you diagnosed the same thing. And in my experience, executives and leaders often believe that they already are good thinkers. And actually, in fact, many of them are what we would call, like, good thinkers, smart people. I realize I’m opening a can of worms here, Gerald.  Open-Mindedness Requires Rethinking Your Own Thinking  GZ: I think most people are pretty good thinkers. I mean, most of, most people have. They’re not in jail, they’re not having problems with drugs or, you know, whatever. They’re navigating a complicated world successfully, and actually more than that. They’re often making major contributions. So the thinking is fine. The problem is the environment in which their thinking no longer is. If you go to the… Or let me back up a step. Thinking is something that is highly personal. I mean, it’s an expression of who you are. You don’t think of it always in that way, but it is. So when I get that criticism for something I’ve written, you know, I do take it personally. I also know enough to realize I shouldn’t, and probably a lot of other people would have the same response, so I’ll act on that feedback. But the difficulty is that if you read the World Economic Forum’s publications, is the world is changing rapidly. The environment in which we practice our thinking is not stable. It’s changing at a very high rate. The different sectors where this change takes place are connected, so it’s kind of like COVID, you know? It can spread. A problem in agriculture can, uh, have a major impact on transportation or broadcast media. It’s just a networked world, and it’s a rapidly changing world. And we consequently need to have an adaptive mindset to adjust our thinking in that world. An adaptive mindset means you have to be willing to reflect on how you’re thinking and assess its suitability to the current situation, and that’s what I mean by an open mind. Am I thinking properly for this context? And often the answer is no, or some change is needed, and you have to improve how you think. But you’ve got to be willing to not treat your default thinking process as sacred. It’s not. The world doesn’t care much about that, and that’s not gonna change to protect my sacred way of thinking. That’s what I mean, you have to be open-minded. You have to be willing to think about your own thinking, not to mention someone else’s.  AW: So as I was preparing for this interview, Jerry, I was thinking about the context of AI and how myself and a lot of my clients are trying to use AI to, actually, to improve our thinking, but just generally to improve our communication, using it as a, a productive tool. And yet, myself and most of the people that I talk to don’t wanna use it to generate ideas before they’ve generated their own ideas, at least because they don’t want it to bias their thinking. That’s exactly one of the thoughts that I, that I had. It’s like AI will bias our thinking. And then it did occur to me as I was going through your book, that our own brains are biased, right? And so this is more than just having a growth mindset. This is about really being conscious of how we’re thinking in the context. GZ: I think it’s strange. Bias gets a bad reputation. You know, there are clearly instances where that’s deserved, but in most cases, you can’t get by without bias. Bias is what makes you unique and uniquely successful in a particular category of issues. You don’t wanna give those up, and you can afford to be biased if you’re always willing to assess your own thinking and whether or not a certain preference in thinking has outlived its usefulness. But to know what you were saying, it was today, and I’m trying to think of the source. I put it aside to read this evening, and  I’ll look for it and send it to you. But it was an evaluation of executives in terms of how good they were or how effective they are in being a partner to AI, a collaborator where they have… And they had these criteria for assessing a really good collaborator. And most of the executives, no matter what the level was, scored rather poorly on this evaluation. They’re not good partners with AI, which is just a very interesting, uh, commentary on how effective we are in using whatever it is that AI might be able to give us.  AW: So, back to the, the benefits of, uh, these executives and leaders thinking about their thinking, right? Understanding maybe what their default patterns are and the risks of not doing so, which we can also get into. I would love it, Gerald, if you could briefly list and summarize the six specific ways that you outline in your book, the specific qualities of an open mind, because I feel like this is gonna help us get some traction here. People say, ” Okay, it’s more than just having an open mind. What is it really?”  The Research Behind Open-Minded Thinking  GZ: Not everyone practiced all six of those, but across a set of interviews, all six came up, each about as prominent as the other in total, and they also exist not in a sequence. And this is where writing a book is very frustrating because a book is linear, and these qualities of mind are anything but linear. It is a system. But nevertheless, I’ll start with, uh, the first one, which is serious playfulness. Many decisions, uh, really have serious consequences, not just in profit sense, but, you know, human impact. And that can cause people to be fairly reluctant to be bold, to take bold action, because there’s a number of people, and you don’t maybe know who will be hurt, could be hurt in some fashion. But that somberness, especially if it is concerned with meeting my profit goals or sales goals for the period that can really inhibit you, it, from trying something different, thinking differently, and acting differently. So you need to introduce a kind of playfulness. And I have to admit, and I won’t spend this much time on the others, but I have to admit, that was a sober experience for me as a young man. I was working on some consumer economics, it, uh, teaching tools for high school students, and there was a school for the blind and the visually impaired nearby where I was working on this project, and they had expressed an interest to have someone come over and use the teaching module that I was developing for their students. And that was great. I went over for two days, spent two days, and I was thinking I was probably selected because I’m so empathetic. I can relate to people and understand, you know. So I mean, I was getting kind of a big head. And within the first half hour, um, of my glowing about my empathic abilities, someone came into the meeting with a blindfold and asked me if I would mind being blindfolded. And I remember thinking I would mind. You know, I get claustrophobia. I don’t… But of course, I said, “No, you know, you can do it.” And I was blindfolded for two hours, and we continued the discussion. I had to navigate my way to the cafeteria and around to the restroom, all of that stuff within two hours. And after two hours, the blindfold was removed. And I, I learned later that two hours is about the period of time a sighted person can be suddenly blindfolded without freaking out. And I could get that, but it had such a huge impact on me in terms of expanding my capacity to empathize, to identify with the students and the staff in that program. I consider that act, that putting a blindfold on a visitor or consultant, to be an act of playfulness. It was a way of introducing an element in a safe way that I needed to have exposure to, but in a controlled, you know, reasonable dose. And that has always stuck with me. So I was delighted when I saw this quality appearing so often and, uh, just spontaneously with, uh, executives. AW: Can you share any other examples that come to mind, Jerry, of, um, executives who benefited from serious playfulness? I’m curious. Is it typically role-playing?  GZ: It should be role-playing. My favorite personally is in a classroom or in a business meeting to have… This is when I try to teach people about mental models, and you have this construct connecting to that construct, and people are sitting there get, you know, shaking their head, they understand what the constructs are. Until you say, “Okay, you are going to be the variable or construct extravagant, and you over here are going to be the construct, uh, frugal,” which happen to be connected. They interact. And I said, “Go ahead and have a go.” And I’ll usually appoint someone to take notes, to monitor and interpret what’s going on. But the frugal and extravagant need to have a conversation. They do in real life in our heads as we go through that. That is a very effective device for having people understand there’s a lot more richness to the ideas that we have than what might be on a questionnaire or in an interview. That is the– Especially as these ideas share differences and similarities. W: Yeah. So much of our thinking is just surface-level, right? Serious playfulness is one way to get deeper. I guess all of these qualities are, though.  GZ: And it’s not that you have to have an immediate change as a result of the intervention or that exercise. It’s more just to kinda get people to realize there’s more in their mind, that even they are… Or more in other people’s minds than they allow for. I also like to make use of what I call the clairvoyant and, uh, wizard. You might have gone through that where I have people role-play each of those. Oh, that’s an effective device. Just trying to think of some other, you know, other easy, easy examples that people can imitate. AW: So Gerald, one thing that I’m thinking here is that this is like next level, uh, adoption of various roles that sometimes people assign in meetings. Like, you be the devil’s advocate, you be the customer advocate. This is like next level of that, right?  GZ: Right. You wanna push them a little bit beyond that so their own thinking has to imagine, and I can’t understate the role of imagination in all of this. And once you unleash the power of imagining, which I define as picturing that which is missing, you unlock a whole lot of good things. Imagination is probably the most frequent term in the book. I distinguish it from creativity also.  Why Creativity Begins with Curiosity, Playfulness, and Not Knowing  AW: So we’ve got serious playfulness, and this next one I feel like is, it may be a trigger for a lot of executives who may describe themselves and be described as others as someone who has authority and insight. The second technique for adopting an open mind is befriending ignorance.  GZ: That’s possibly the toughest one. I, I’m not sure, but it wouldn’t surprise me if we could rank these that would be the toughest one because, well, for the obvious reason. You, you’re being paid because you know something, uh, I mean, to put it in a somewhat exaggerated way. But have you ever seen… I thought about this the other day. I’ve never seen on a resume expertise in befriending ignorance. I mean, that’s probably the last thing you would ever list as an attribute, a quality. And it’s probably the first thing you’d notice if you were reviewing a resume, and I’ll wager your curiosity would go through the roof, and you’d wanna have that person in to do that. But in any event, ignorance is something bad. I mean, the label, you’re ignorant, or that’s ignorant, is about as pejorative as you can get in the, in the scheme of things. But where else do new ideas come from? I’m trying to think of some major innovation that didn’t have its origin in things that weren’t known. And if you’re going to be imaginative, it’s a term we throw around a lot, but if you’re going to be imaginative, and you think of it as picturing that which is missing, it really is picturing that of which you are ignorant. Uh, you don’t know it exists, or maybe no one else does.  AW: It, uh, reminds me of when you were training me on the ZMET technique, simply instead of asking a scripted question or assuming that I knew something and trying to lead the conversation, the technique of repeating the word– the person’s words back to them, encouraging them to elaborate, that I think that may be a way of befriending ignorance. GZ: You know, I mean, it certainly is a way of defining the interviewer’s ignorance because you don’t really know what the person means by guilt, or fun. Those things have so many different meanings, and that’s a good way to get them to handle your or, you know, my ignorance.  AW: But that is different from – I have the list in front of me on my screen here. The next quality of an open mind is asking the right discovery question. So repeating the person’s words back to them is a discovery question, but that’s not what you mean by that, right?  GZ: I hadn’t thought about that, actually. I think that would be a discovery, uh, question because you’re discovering or asking them to help you discover what they mean, and that helps them discover what they really mean by that term. AW: That’s true.  The Power of Better Questions and Chasing Curiosity  GZ: This is actually one of the most fascinating… I owe someone a chapter on this. Where do questions come from? Well, they come from what you don’t know, which is a good starting point. But I can’t find anything in the literature that talks about the cognitive origin of questions, where they– Literally, what’s the neuropathology of, uh, of a question. We know a lot about answers, but not a lot about questions. And breakthrough questions are questions that historically, a good friend of mine is working on this,  a colleague is pointing out, is in science, the person who comes up with a breakthrough question, a powerful question that threatens to, you know, could change a whole field, is generally ostracized in various ways, some conspicuous, some not. And for a while, people who were advocating what turned out to be breakthrough questions have a difficult social life and professional life. But where do your questions come from? We know about answers, but it’s hard to justify, hard to come up with a history of a question. And yet, without them, you won’t have answers. You can’t have an answer.  AW: We hear when people are talking about a phenomenon where there’s some skill or expertise associated with it that like, “I’m so ignorant about this that I don’t even know what questions to ask,” right?  GZ: Yeah. That’s a good phrase. I mean a good observation. I mean, not having a question is sort of the worst case of being ignorant. AW: So, I’m thinking about the context, Gerald, of innovation here, right? And how the incumbent, who you would’ve assumed would’ve come up with an innovation, often doesn’t because they’re not, I’m gonna use the word biased again, I’m not sure that’s the right word, but they’re biased by what they’ve already done and what they already know, versus this brand new company comes in and they’re solving for something else. They’re asking different questions, and then that innovation catapults the existing innovation from the incumbent company that everybody thought was on, on a trajectory of a success, right?  GZ: I think a question is a focusing device, and it’s a way of determining where your resources should be allocated to answer this question. And here’s where these things become synergistic, because you wouldn’t have a question if there was an answer readily available. And so a question is at the same time not only a neat device for focusing where you’re going to go, but it’s also an acknowledgement of what you don’t know and what your colleagues or others don’t know. So it’s a very powerful device. I think other things being equal, which they aren’t, I would always prefer a really solid question to a really solid answer because the solid question has potential. A solid answer- However important it is, has a more preordained or future is not as interesting as an unaddressed question. AW: I feel like this is one of the qualities that you’ve outlined here. Uh, they’re all relevant, but I feel like leaders and business executives maybe can particularly get traction on this one, asking the right discovery questions, right? Like we, we hear this sort of cliche advice that as you become more senior, you should be listening more and talking less and asking questions. So before we go to the next one, I just wanna ask you if you can elaborate a little bit, Gerald, on what do you mean by the right discovery questions? Is there, is there, I don’t know, like some sort of list of criteria of what makes a discovery question correct or right?  GZ: I don’t think there is an arbitrary set of criteria or an even a single criterion that makes it right. But the right question is not the wrong question. It’s the question that survives all the wrong ones, uh, and remains on the table. And so it’s the question that is evaluated in terms of whether its potential answer or answers, even if those are not clear, but you imagine this is where, again, imagination comes in. Yeah. This question, if we pursued it, there are many more opportunities, as I would view it. You know, the different answers that might come in, a richer context to play in than is another question. And so I say that’s the right question, but it’s also right in another way, and that is it has to have a caffeine element. It has to wake people up, and it has to be a question that makes everyone think, “Why didn’t I think of that?” And that is, I think, a constructive wake-up call to, to everyone who thinks that way. I often have, you know, had that experience with colleagues. They’ll have a question, and that’s, “Damn, I should have thought of that myself, and I didn’t. Why not?” I think there’s a, there’s this element that makes it right socially or communally in a sense.  AW: So simply put, it could be that the right discovery questions are the ones that make an impact, where impact is defined as making… I love, I love your caffeine-charged, uh, metaphor there, Gerald, but it’s about making people think differently and think about something in a new way. GZ: Yeah.  AW: Is thinking differently.  GZ: It, it, um… That’s right. It’s a surprise, actually.  AW: Yeah.  GZ: Um, right. That’s why I attach the word discovery to it.  AW: So the next quality of an open mind is chasing your curiosity. I know none of the words here are accidental, so why are we chasing our curiosity, and how is that different from befriending ignorance? GZ: Remember, these are, um, a system of things. They’re more than cousins to one another. They’re siblings in effect, and it’s hard to have one without the other is one of the big lessons that I learned from these interviews. But curiosity is actually on the decline in the United States, at least. I’ve seen published reports that measures curiosity, and that’s, uh, something that, that is apparently declining, and the decline begins somewhere around the fifth or sixth grade, according to some sources. So it occurs fairly early in life, and regardless of when it occurs, there’s a social contagion for it. And I worry about that, that colleagues aren’t sufficiently curious. There are times when I think I’m not, you know, sufficiently curious. I read very broadly, and I get frustrated, but I don’t pursue every lead I can’t that I find interesting. But chasing curiosity, it is meant to convey the fact that it’s elusive. It escapes us, and it’s partly because we don’t want to admit we don’t know the thing that we’re now curious about or that we don’t know how to interrogate with a question. Curiosity, if we ever caught the creature, what, what do we do with it? And that’s another problem. But I think curiosity, I think of it, I don’t know if I use this phrase in the book, but it’s the itch that you have to scratch, and it’s something that’s in a s- like that, it’s fairly visceral. You’ve got to feel it in a visceral way that would make you want to pursue it when everyone else is telling you that’s a dead end, it’s a blind alley, it’s, you know, that’s not something that a junior faculty member or an assistant branch manager would do or propose, and so forth. All those things are encouraging people to stay put, not to be pursuing their curiosity.  AW: You’re reminding me, Gerald, of an interview that I recently conducted with Michelle Budria, who started working the front cash at McDonald’s and worked her way up to CEO of McDonald’s Canada, and she worked in different countries in all different functions. But she shared with me some of what the factors that she believes built her success, and one of them was an insatiable curiosity, constantly asking her managers, “Why are they doing this this way? Why aren’t they doing it that way?” And she said at one point, one of her managers actually said, “Fine, I’m gonna give you this project. Run with it and show us.” And so she had, and has still, a genuine curiosity. She’s constantly looking for feedback, but also external to what she’s doing. She’s curious about why things run the way they run, why they are doing things the way they’re doing them, and this fueled her success. Yeah. Yeah. You’re not surprised. GZ: Yeah. Yeah, that’s… And chasing it, it also has, you have this relationship with it whereby it’s a bit elusive, maybe very elusive, but it’s yours to chase. You’re responsible. You’ve gotta catch it, and you don’t know even what it’s going to be, you know, when you finally get to it or catch up with it. You know, so there’s a relationship that takes a, a kind of, uh, dedication and a sort of mental endurance to– the conditioning to go after. AW: So, back to the point I made before about the every word here matters, it’s not an accident that it’s chasing your curiosity, not just chasing curiosity for the sake of curiosity’s sake.  GZ: Uh, yeah. Actually, just to kind of underscore that, I don’t wanna be chasing someone else’s curiosity. I wanna be chasing mine. I’m gonna run faster. I’m gonna feel better catching it if I, you know, if I can catch up with it. Being told what to do is something I’ve always resisted.  Panoramic Thinking: Seeing Connections Others Miss  AW: Okay, the next quality of an open mind is… Well, like you said, they’re all related. Uh, and I do want you to share why there’s an octopus on the front of the book, which relates to how these qualities are all related to each other. But can you describe panoramic thinking?  GZ: Yeah. There’s another word for it that doesn’t quite work for me, and that is multidisciplinary, and that has some obvious meanings and, you know, it’s, and it’s structured in an academic sort of way. But panoramic thinking is more than being multidisciplinary. It’s looking in diverse and seemingly unrelated fields that no one has ever thought would converge. My best current example, recent example, of all things, there is a phenomena out in space, very distant space, with this kind of like a cloud of things that they can’t quite capture or they couldn’t quite capture. And now, in a way which I’ve not yet found out, someone figured out that there was something in the design, nature’s design of the eye of a lobster, that provided a solution so that they found a camera that could take a picture there. And someone saw that the cloudy situation that, that was giving them trouble, part of what they also wanted to study, was comparable to the cloudy situation lobsters find themselves in two hundred feet or a hundred feet deep in the water, the deep water lobsters. And that the solution that nature provided with their vision may have relevance for that other one. That’s the last thing I would have, you know, thought about, but that’s panoramic thinking.  [00:40:31] AW: I remember when I was your student, Gerald, and you encouraged me to read in depth the academic research on gift giving, ’cause I was studying word of mouth and why people give recommendations or warnings about products and services that they’d experienced to their friends and family, and how to think about it, and kind of what mechanisms were at work. And you suggested along this vein of panoramic thinking. Now, certainly it’s not like interstellar phenomenon, and you know, the lobster’s eye, but the insights from the research that I did on gift giving certainly illuminated the phenomenon of word of mouth. So why, why do we give, how do we give, how do we feel about it when someone rejects our word of mouth, or they tell us that we’re not right? All of these things made a big difference in my understanding of the phenomenon.  GZ: If you were to look in the bibliography of Dare to Think Differently, and just kind of run down, looking at the titles of journals and books that are used to elaborate on or justify or give evidence for what managers are doing, you’ll find that there’s a very broad and extensive academic literature supporting what these guys were discovering on their own. And I used it to kind of give the managers, you know, a little more grounding and validation for what they were sharing with me. But they didn’t know that. They don’t know that. But take a look at the bibliography. You know, you’ll see it.  AW: I have, and I will look again. Speaking of bibliographies, this reminds me of another book that I read when I was taking one of your classes when I was a doctoral student, Gerald, and that was the book Consilience. Do you remember that?  GZ: It was E. O. Wilson, right? That’s right.  AW: E.  O. Wilson. Yeah.  GZ: Yeah.  AW: And I think that book, the, the thesis of that book is about panoramic thinking. Would you agree?  GZ: Absolutely. Yeah.  AW: Yeah. See, you made a, you made a huge impact on me, Gerald. You, you definitely impacted how I think. Okay, the sixth and last quality of an open mind is, and again, I wanna remind everyone that these are in no particular order, right? They’re certainly not a sequence, but the last one we’re talking about here is using a voyager outlook.  GZ: That’s, um, kind of my way of, of framing ambiguity, and you can see how it would fit with the others. But what’s a, what is a voyager? And I’m thinking of a voyager more in the, like the fifteenth, sixteenth century, even earlier than that, the Norsemen, and so forth. There is a willingness to go out to the unknown, to space that they’re ignorant about. I mean, the maps all had, at that time, in the early, early days, there be monsters. You know, there was a line drawn, and after that, no one knew what was there, but they, you know, guessed that there’d be monsters out there. I think managers, executives, but not them alone, really don’t like ambiguity, and I’ll comment on intelligence in a second. And, I don’t blame them. I don’t want to have something… We can all empathize with that. But if you’re not chasing curiosity into the unknown, if you’re not discovering what you don’t know, that is literally how you define the unknown, the lobster eye, for example, you’re gonna get stuck. And you’re just not gonna grow as a person or as a company. And I talk about it, my alternative to that was embracing ambiguity. That’s like, you know, embracing a leper. People wouldn’t– people were reluctant to do that. But it takes that kind of spirit to do all the other qualities in the, uh, of an open mind. AW: So I love that you re-framed or chose a term for this last quality of an open mind to make it sound more positive, like something we can strive for as opposed to something that we’re avoiding, right? Using a voyager outlook is something we would strive for versus we would avoid ambiguity. And you use the word spirit. So, back to something you said at the beginning, executives wanna be seen as intelligent, right? They wanna be seen as having insight, authority, and experience. And yet, at the same time, befriending ignorance, asking questions, chasing their curiosity, using panoramic thinking, and thinking like a voyager. Uh, this seems like it could be contradicting. I know it doesn’t have to be, but if, if you could share some, I think, advice, yes, Jerry, prescription for these leaders on how to think differently and benefit from this way of thinking in a way that isn’t gonna sacrifice their credibility.  GZ: You know, after I developed Z Met, I encountered or discovered why it works. It wasn’t beforehand. It’s, uh, even to this day, new things are coming to my mind to show that it has even more support as a basic method. But I, in moments of honesty, I, I didn’t know all that when I was, yeah, developing it. But one of the things that’s very important, every manager shares with all the staff that they work with, senior to them, junior to them, is that the mind works on the basis of analogy. And there are excellent treatises on this, you know, by really thoughtful people, that memory itself is organized analogically. We have memory files of potential analogous things to use when we encounter, uh, ambiguity, or we encounter something we don’t know, we can retrieve. What’s it like? I mean, that’s the first– You have three questions. What is it? What is it like? That’s when you begin to make progress. It’s maybe it’s like a lobster. I don’t know. Making that up. And then what of it? What do you do with it? But what’s it like? It’s a fundamental question when we’re making sense of a problem. Where else have we seen it? And so on. And I think that if a manager sort of not just worries about what something is and what do you do about it, but understands first what is it like, where else has this happened, they’ll come up with many more solutions or things to adapt or alter. And that’s where metaphor comes in, because metaphor is really the language of analogies, analogical thinking. And so I think they should leverage what they have naturally, which is the ability to think in terms of analogy. And a lot of problems will look a lot more trackable and solvable if they indulge in that. And that’s a kind of a natural thing, and they can leverage their colleagues and help them get them to participate. That’s a big lesson, and I think that intelligence is the ability to make sense of ambiguity. It’s not a paper-and-pencil test. It’s, uh, the ability to clarify what is amiss, you know, chaos. And using analogy is what a wise person does.  AW: So I’m trying to read the minds of the listeners here, and I can imagine they’re thinking that this is very compelling thesis, and I want to dare myself to think differently. So what are some specific, I was gonna say almost physical things? So asking questions seems like the low-hanging fruit. What are some things that they can do themselves, and also to encourage people in their organization so that they can really get some scale on the benefits of thinking differently?  GZ: I think I would resort to finding examples of serious play. A play gives everyone a degree of license that they don’t ordinarily have, and that’s very free, uh, and important, but is serious. You know, there’s a problem to be solved, and that’s where the clairvoyant and the wizard come in And I would ask first, I use those guys all the time, what would I have to fix? That’s the wizard. You know, if we went down this road, the clairvoyant is someone who sees the future. Okay, what do I anticipate is going to happen? And the two guys get together, people get together. There’s an issue of gender with that. I use it with my MBA class a lot. A clairvoyant apparently has feminine qualities and a wizard, masculine qualities.  AW: That’s also true of a lot of archetypes, right?  GZ: Uh, but I would, I would make serious use of those characters and other devices for serious play, ro- you know, role-playing. Humility, Courage, and Discipline: Final Lessons on Thinking Differently  AW: Okay. You know, I’m gonna try this even within Talk About Talk, a very small organization. I’m gonna try serious playfulness, assigning the wizard and the clairvoyant, and we’ll see what happens. I’ll report back to you. Can I ask you the three rapid-fire questions now, Sherry?  GZ: Okay.  AW: I know I’ve asked you these questions before in the past when I interviewed you. We’ll see if it’s changed. Question number one: Are you an introvert or an extrovert?  GZ: Uh, introvert.  AW: Do you know what you said one time when I asked you that question? You said, “Can I just be a vert?” Okay. You’re an introvert.  GZ: It shows you how, it shows you how retiring I am.  AW: Yeah.  GZ: Yeah.  AW: It’s supposed to be rapid fire, Andrea. Okay. Okay, question number two: What are your communication pet peeves?  GZ: A dry mouth, looking out at an audience if I’m the communicator. I, I really don’t like those situations. A third would be, I guess, I’m not very forgiving for someone who can’t hold my attention. So if I leave a speaking engagement, and I have a lot of ideas to pursue, it’s usually because I wasn’t paying attention or they didn’t hold my attention, not that they gave it to me, so that’s not a good sign.  AW: I remember, I know this is not very rapid fire, but I do remember in your office we were talking about how some of the academic presentations that you and I attended together weren’t always that interesting. You told me, or you encouraged me to watch their presentation techniques, their communication, uh, and maybe learn that if I wasn’t gonna learn the material that they were presenting. Okay, question number three: I’m really curious about this one, given how broadly and extensively you read. Is there a book that you’ve read or a podcast that you’ve listened to that you find yourself recommending a lot lately? GZ: Yes. There is. Ed Yong, and it’s all about other forms of life here on Earth and how amazingly sophisticated they are and how extraordinarily developed one or another is with various senses and other capacities, and it’s a very humbling read. I think humans are really pretty impoverished in a sensory sense compared to almost any of these creatures. He goes through spiders, frogs, and bats. It’s become a classic book, I think.  AW: I will definitely read it based on that recommendation, Sherry. And it reminds me of, I think, a theme of this conversation, which is really about humility. I’m curious if you agree with that, and maybe you can share your, your final thoughts with the Talk About Talk listeners about daring themselves to think differently. GZ: You’ll see in the book frequently I’ll mention together the need for humility. That is always the first one. The courage, courage is another one, and discipline. It’s hard work. It takes discipline. It requires being bold, you know, being censored in some sense in various ways, making other people uncomfortable, not deliberately, but just inadvertently. And humility, which is you have to see yourself as someone with so much to learn. There’s no space for arrogance.  AW: I love that. It’s a beautiful place to end, Gerald. Especially listeners know that I’m a huge fan of the power of three. So, in addition to all of the inspiring insights that you shared, I guess if we can all take away an even increased respect for humility, courage, and discipline, and doing our best to succeed on all of those dimensions. Thank you so much, Gerald. I really enjoyed this conversation The post Dare to THINK DIFFERENTLY with Harvard Professor Gerald Zaltman (ep. 213) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Are your presentations always falling flat? I’m breaking down the 7 most common presentation mistakes leaders make and exactly what to do instead. Whether you’re presenting to your board, your team, or a room full of strangers, these mistakes are probably showing up in your work right now. The good news? Every single one of them is fixable. We cover everything from the prep mistakes that undermine your message before you even open your mouth, to the delivery habits that quietly erode your authority on stage. Including what to do when someone asks you a question you can’t answer. If you want to walk into your next presentation with more confidence, more clarity, and more impact, you need to avoid these mistakes. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube TRANSCRIPTION Andrea Wojnicki: Your audience is probably full of busy people with many, many distractions in their heads. If you can get them to pay attention and internalize one main message, then that is a huge accomplishment. How are your presentation skills? In this episode, you’re going to learn the top seven presentation mistakes, and importantly, specific advice on how you can avoid or correct these mistakes so you can deliver truly impactful presentations at work. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk.  Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk, where I coach ambitious leaders and aspiring leaders to communicate with confidence and credibility so you can achieve your career goals. You can learn more about what we do at Talk About Talk if you go to talkabouttalk.com. You’ll find plenty of free resources there, plus information about my keynote speaking, corporate workshops, small group master classes, online courses, and more. I also have a free biweekly email newsletter where you can sign up to get free communication skills coaching from me every two weeks in your inbox. Okay, let’s get into this. Mistakes #1 and #2: No Roadmap and No Audience Insight  The top seven presentation mistakes and how to correct these mistakes to ensure that you deliver impactful presentations at work. Mistake number one is not providing a roadmap. Have you ever been sitting in a meeting or maybe in an audience when someone stands up to give a presentation and they start talking, and you have absolutely no idea where they’re headed? That is what I’m talking about here. Big mistake. Have you ever pressed play on a podcast episode without knowing what it’s about? No way. Exactly. Instead, here’s what you should do. Start with the headline, then tell them what you’re gonna present. Here’s the thing about business communication that we all need to remember, and this goes beyond presentations. Even in things like commenting in a meeting or even writing emails, suspense is way overrated in business communication. You need to get to the point. You need to start with the headline. In the context of a presentation, provide a roadmap. For example, you could say, “I’m gonna summarize our Q2 financials and then highlight three key insights that we need to focus on to improve our results in Q3.” Or you could say something like, “I’m gonna share with you seven common presentation mistakes and tips for what you can do instead.” Do you see what I did there? Do you get the idea? Sharing your headline and then providing a roadmap helps your audience understand why they should pay attention. It also shows respect for your audience, which leads me to the second mistake. Mistake number two is not understanding your audience. By now, we all know that understanding your audience is critical to capturing their attention. Maybe you’re teaching a workshop, so you ask the workshop organizer, “Who’s gonna be in the audience? How many people will be in the room? What career stage are they at? Are they junior, mid-career, or are they senior leaders, or is it a mix? How old are they? Does this audience skew male or skew female, or is it mixed?” Here’s the thing about this list. These are demographics, and that’s table stakes. You need to go deep on your audience if you wanna make an impact. Do they care about your topic? How much do they know about your topic? What do they care about? The more you know about what they know and what they care about, the more your message will resonate. Beyond these psychographic dimensions, it’ll also help if you understand exactly what’s going on in the moment for these people in your audience. What time of day is your presentation? Are they hungry? Are they tired? Will they be rushing in after fighting in morning rush hour traffic? Or are you presenting at 11:30 AM, when all they can think about is what they’re having for lunch? The other question is, who’s presenting before you, and what’s happening after your time on the agenda? You get the idea. The more you understand about your audience, yes, their demographics, but also what they know, what they care about, and how they’re feeling in the context of your presentation, this will all help you immensely. Okay. So we’ve covered mistake number one, not providing a roadmap or context for your audience, and mistake number two, not understanding your audience. Mistakes #3 and #4: Trying to Say Too Much and Being Generic  Mistake number three is trying to say too much. Instead, you need to focus. Focus on one key point. Your audience is probably full of busy people with many, many distractions in their heads. If you can get them to pay attention and internalize one main message, then that is a huge accomplishment. So ask yourself, “What’s my one main point here?” And then focus all your content around that one point. This is also a great way to help you recover if you lose your place in the presentation. Just remind yourself of your one main point. And if you happen to be one of those people who tends to ramble on and go off topic, I have an insight to share with you. In my experience, folks who ramble and go off topic are typically very generous They’re the ones who want their audience to know everything that’s going on inside their head, and truly, this generosity is a lovely motivation. But if you really want to be a generous presenter, you do the work of focusing your main message and the main learning instead of imposing that work on your audience. That is how you make an impact.  Okay, moving along. Mistake number four is being generic. Think of this mistake as sharing the presentation that anyone could give. Here’s the test. Could your presentation be delivered by anyone if they had the script? If yes, you need to personalize it. You need to customize the content so that you are the only one who could give this presentation, or at least you’re the one who could best deliver it. Here’s your question: What insight or perspective can I uniquely share here? Most of the folks that I coach who are preparing for significant presentations haven’t even thought of this before, but this insight can truly take your presentation to the next level. Ask yourself, “What can only I add to this topic or this presentation that no one else can?” Make it personal. When you customize your talk in this way, you’re actually accomplishing two things. One, you’re making it more interesting and impactful, and two, you’re also gonna boost your confidence. Okay, moving on. We’ve covered four mistakes so far. The first mistake is not providing a roadmap. The second mistake is not understanding your audience. The third mistake is trying to say too much or not focusing your point. The fourth mistake is being generic and not customizing or personalizing your presentation.  Mistakes #5 and #6: Reading Your Script and Going Overtime  Mistake number five is reading. Yes, as in reading your script. This is a very easy one to fix. Never ever under any circumstances do you bring your script on stage. Okay, maybe if you’re a celebrity presenter or a politician and you’re delivering an important speech, and you have two teleprompters, but otherwise, do not bring your script on stage. Why? Because in all likelihood, you’re gonna end up reading it. Depending on the context, you can certainly bring up a note card that outlines your main points in case you lose your place, but do not read your typed-out script, and don’t bring it on stage with you. And related to this point, do not read your slides. Got it? No scripts on stage. Next mistake. Mistake number six is going into overtime. If you’re giving a forty-five-minute speech, you need to rehearse it until you can nail it in forty-four minutes. If you’re delivering a TED Talk, you’ve got exactly eighteen minutes. Going over time is disrespectful, and it implies lack of preparation. Back to my point about generosity. It might be the case that you’re just trying to be generous and share as much information as you can, but that’s no excuse here. You need to be focused, and you need to respect the timeline. A few months ago, I was asked to deliver a keynote at a conference, and I was given twenty minutes to deliver what the organizers had seen me deliver previously in one hour. So I focused on the script, and I practiced it beginning to end. The first time it took forty minutes. The second time it took thirty minutes. And the third time it was just under twenty minutes. I knew exactly what I could say and what I needed to cut. And when I went on stage, guess what happened? Muscle memory kicked in, and I was able to deliver it within the short twenty minutes. Do not go into overtime.  Mistake #7 and Final Recap: Navigating Q&A with Confidence  Now, the last common mistake that people make when they’re delivering presentations is in the context of the Q&A. This is the question and answer period that sometimes happens at the end. What do you do when someone asks you a question, and you don’t have an answer? The common advice here is to respectfully say, “I don’t know, but I’ll get back to you.” And here’s the thing: that’s fine, but I have a much better suggestion. Before you get out on stage or in front of the room, remind yourself of your expertise. You do not know everything, but you do have unique insights and experiences. You do have unique and valuable knowledge and expertise. It’s inevitable that someone will ask you a question that you don’t have an answer for. Instead of responding with the cliché, “I’ll look into it and get back to you,” we hear this all the time, right? Consider this instead to be your chance to reinforce your unique expertise or your personal brand. Instead, try something like, “That is an insightful question, something I haven’t considered before. Based on my expertise, based on what I do know, here’s what I’d say.” And then you tell them, based on your experience and your expertise, what your opinion is or what your perspective is. And depending on the context, you might also follow up with, “And I’m gonna do some research and find the answer to this question and confirm with you as soon as possible.” But sometimes your perspective on something, given your unique experience and expertise, is all you need. Okay. That’s it. Those are the seven common mistakes that I see people making when they’re preparing and delivering impactful presentations. You may have noticed that the first four mistakes, numbers one through four, are all related to preparation, things that you can fix when you’re preparing, and number five, six, and seven are about your delivery. Okay, so you’re planning your presentation. Mistake number one is not providing a roadmap at the beginning for your audience, not telling them why they should pay attention. Mistake number two is not understanding your audience in depth, not going beyond simple demographics. Number three is not focusing your main point, not being generous by doing the hard work yourself, of clarifying your main point instead of imposing that work on your audience. Number four is not customizing or personalizing your presentation. In other words, being generic. Now you’re on stage. You’re delivering the presentation. Mistake number five is reading your script. Do not bring your script on stage. Number six is going into overtime, not respecting others’ time. And number seven is handling tough questions with, “I’ll find an answer and get back to you,” not grounding your answer in your unique expertise and experience. You can find a summary of these seven mistakes on your device in the show notes for this episode. Take a look and review them there. And whatever platform you’re listening on, I encourage you to hit subscribe so you can continue to improve your communication skills. Thank you for listening to Talk About Talk, and talk soon. The post The Top 7 Presentation Mistakes Leaders Make (ep. 212) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

How much should you share at work? How personal can you get?  What’s ok and what’s off-limits? This question of what to reveal at work is exactly what Harvard Business School Professor Leslie John addresses in her book Revealing: The Underrated Power of Oversharing. Listen to learn the psychology behind why we conceal, a practical framework for deciding when to reveal, and what to do if you find yourself crying in a meeting. We also talk about emotional literacy and what it means that so many high-achieving people, Leslie included, struggle to answer the question “how do you feel?” If you’ve ever defaulted to “I’m fine” when you’re not, this episode is worth your time. BOOKS MENTIONED 📖 Revealing: The Underrated Power of Oversharing by Leslie John — https://amzn.to/4mG1kqR 📖 Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay Gibson — https://amzn.to/4tmJVG2 CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube CONNECT WITH LESLIE  🌐 Website: https://www.lesliekjohn.com/ 📝Her Quiz: https://www.lesliekjohn.com/quiz TRANSCRIPTION Leslie John: It feels like overcommunicating, but it’s just communicating like you’re gonna feel like you’re overcommunicating, but turns out people can’t read your mind and your motivations. And so if you don’t tell them, then they’re gonna like make these all kinds of inferences that probably aren’t right.  Andrea Wojnicki: If you’ve ever grappled with whether you should say something personal or not at work, or maybe you mention something personal or revealing that you regret saying, well, you’re not alone.  About the Guest: Leslie John, Harvard Business School Professor and Author of Revealing That was Harvard Business School Professor Leslie John. Professor John recently published a book called Revealing Her Award-Winning research appears in top academic journals and the media, including the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and the Economist. Like me, professor John was born and raised in Canada, and here’s an interesting fact about Professor John that does not come up in the interview before entering academia, she was an internationally trained ballet dancer. Yes, you heard that right. She was a ballet dancer.  Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk.  My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, and I’m an executive coach at Talk About Talk. Please just call me Andrea. I’m here to help you learn to communicate with confidence and credibility. To learn more about Talk About Talk and what I do, please click on the links in the show description. And don’t forget to hit subscribe. You can also go to TalkAboutTalk.com where you’ll find lots of resources and see all the different ways that you can learn to boost your own communication skills. Just go to talk about talk.com. Now, let’s jump right into my conversation with Professor Leslie John. In this conversation that you’re about to hear. You are gonna learn why we might have a bias to omit or not reveal things, a framework for how we should think about whether to reveal or conceal, and what to do if you find yourself shedding a tear at work. Thank you so much, Leslie, for being with us here today at Talk About Talk to talk about revealing and oversharing. LJ: Thanks so much for having me.  Why “How Are You?” Is Harder Than It Sounds AW: So, as I was reading your book, something occurred to me, Leslie, I was thinking that one of the big questions that I try to help my clients answer is when they’re asked the question, tell me about yourself. For you, I don’t know if you agree with this, but for you, I was thinking maybe the big question is how are you  LJ: To an extent, it’s how are you? You know, it’s interesting because I do think that in order to answer that question, like it seems like a very simple question, but. As I learned more about it than about myself as I wrote the book, actually, I realized that it actually requires some emotional literacy, and I realized that sometimes the issue isn’t, when someone doesn’t answer, doesn’t reveal, doesn’t say how they are, sometimes it’s not just the superficial. Like not answering. It’s actually often much deeper is they don’t even know how they’re, and I say this because this is what happened to me because I was talking to my therapist, I don’t even know what I was fetching about, but I kept saying like how other people felt or what I thought. And he said, well, how do you feel? How do you feel? And he kept saying, how do you feel? I’m like. I until finally I said, what is a feeling? And then he, I know. So it seems so simple, but like I, I realized, I’m like, I don’t even know. I’m not naming feelings. I don’t know what a feeling is. And then he gave me this tool called, it’s an emotions wheel that helps you kind of articulate what you’re feeling so you can say it.  It helps you expand your emotional vocabulary. I actually have one in my book. It’s a, I made my own because all of the ones I was finding were like too complicated for me. I needed that much remedial help, so I made an even simpler one. But yeah, this question of like, how are you, it can be a lot, a lot more complex than you think, and it can expose that you don’t actually really understand yourself, at least in my case.  AW: Yeah. So yesterday I was, um, in an executive education program where an emotional intelligence academic was actually talking about that wheel. So I know, I know exactly what you’re talking about, and thank you for simplifying it because it can be overwhelming. But what I’m hearing here is that if someone asks how you are, maybe one of the reasons that we kind of go on autopilot and say, fine. That’s the default answer. I’m fine. How are you? Or, I’m good. How are you? You’ll hear people say, maybe part of the reason that we answer that isn’t just because we don’t wanna reveal so much about ourselves. It’s actually because we don’t even know ourselves.  LJ: Exactly. Exactly. That’s what I discovered, and that was wild. I’m like, I’m 45 years old, and I don’t know the, I need a freaking feelings wheel. Like it’s wild. But I mean, I think like. You know, different generations have honored different things. And my parents generation, it’s like IQ or bust. Um, I don’t even know how much my mom believes in psychology, even. It’s funny because, um. One of my jokes, or I don’t know, quips about parenting is that every parent screws up their kids. The goal is to screw them up in a different way than how you are screwed up.  AW: That resonates Leslie. Yeah, that resonates. LJ: And so, so for me, like with my kids, I’m always asking them like, how do you feel? How do you feel? And I’m sure I’m screwing them up in other ways, but. By God, they will know their feeling and they’re so, one night my kid said he was three when he said this, he said, mama. I love you, but sometimes I don’t like you. And I’m like, that’s, yeah. I read amazing read that’s in your book. It’s amazing. Like. AW: Yeah.  LJ: I could not, I only like just started being able to do that.  AW: That’s very cool.  LJ: Or they’ll say, I’m feeling frustrated. I’m like, what?  AW: You’re talking about your feelings?  LJ: I know. And then I’m like, great, great. Like, I’m like celebrating their frustration. I’m not happy. You’re frustrated. Just the fact that you know what it is.  AW: So they’re very lucky. I’m gonna say to who’s attuned to that. And maybe they will grow up to be the senior leaders who are not only sharing their emotions in a productive way, but also encouraging their teams, too. Crying at Work: Risk, Perception, and Controlling the Narrative Towards the end of your book, you talk about, um, leadership and how emotions and revealing and oversharing shows up in the work context. Um, and at the end, I’m just staying on this topic of emotions. I get asked about this all the time, Leslie, like people will say, I’ve welled up, and people can see that I’m about to cry. Or they’ll say like, no, I was a blubbering mess. Or they’ll say, under no circumstances. Will I shed a tear at work, even if I am like whatever it is, exhausted and overwhelmed, or whatever it is? So what’s your take on that?  LJ: Oh yeah. I’ve got a lot of takes. So I guess I get why people are like, under no circumstance, I will. I show that I’m crying, or want to cry, or feel like crying. I get it because. There is research on this, and as you probably would expect, especially when women cry at work, they, the risk is that they’re viewed as like hysterical and overly emotional and not like it kind of erodes your credibility or your perceived competence, right? Which is not good. So that concern is valid. So the way I think about it though, if you do have to cry, like cry. Um, you know, great if you can do it in, in private, but if you can’t, and sometimes you can’t, then the really important thing is to own it and to say why you’re crying like that can salvage your reputation. I know. So, because as you know, in the book, I had an epic crying episode where I was a pretty junior academic at the time, and I was giving a talk at. University of get-go if I want to mask the name. That’s funny. Uh, which has a reputation for being jerks to the, uh, speakers, especially female. Like it’s just a toxic environment. So I gave a talk there. When I was starting out and I had like prepped everything, I was like, they’re hard question, so I was extra, extra ready? And then in the talk, yeah, were asking me hard questions. Asking them in a really nasty way. They were being belligerent; they were interrupting me. They were, um, being loud. They were not accepting a perfectly reasonable answer. So, like they were being behaviorally obnoxious and asking hard questions. So those kind of couple things. And I was crying because they were just being a-holes, because they were being bullies. They were being mean. And you know, when you’re like, okay, like you’re like, okay, I can do this. But then he just ke there’s just this onslaught. It just kept, kept, and then I just, I’m like, I couldn’t control it anymore. And just the dams open, and it was ugly cry. It was like, it was the blubbering version that you mentioned, and so I couldn’t hide it. And so. What I decided to do in that moment, I said, I thought, well, it can’t get worse than this. Maybe I can just lecture them on why they suck, like why they’re so nasty. And more importantly, and substantively, why I’m crying and why I’m not crying, ’cause I thought from their perspective, they may think I’m crying ’cause you’re asking me hard questions. And that’s very undermining of my credibility. And so I wanted to kind of set the record straight, and so I just stopped the talk as I’m like, and I said, I want you to know. Why I’m crying and why I’m not crying. And then I said, I’m crying because what I just said right now to you, like I gave all the examples of how they were being obnoxious. And, um, I think that that’s a way of saving it because you tie it to something that’s not, it’s not that you’re like easily. It’s not overly emotional; you’re just like, it’s legitimate. And the fact that you then are able to speak about your feelings and talk about them also models a certain maturity and a certain miss stability, even though you’re like, you, like you don’t feel stable. Um, that was like an extreme version, but I think less extreme versions. And there have been studies on this where like if you are crying at work, if you cry about something, if you link it to your passion for the work, if you say, I’m crying because I’m so passionate, ‘ because I care so much about getting it right, then it doesn’t erode your competence. The other thing I think that’s interesting is if, especially like if you’re a leader, like first of all, leaders have a lot more latitude because they already have high status, they already have respect. So they’ve got kind of a nice like competence capital, like they’ve got this like bank, and so they have a little more leeway such that you know, if something horrible happens. In the world that is relevant to your work, your employees, and you don’t well up, you like suppress welling up. You just look like a monster, right? Like we’ve seen examples of CEOs that are like. Like, I’m thinking this was a while ago, but like the United CEO, Oscar Munoz will no longer CEO because of this. When the person was like dragged off the flight, and when he’s addressing afterwards, he’s just like, oh, this was unfortunate. Like there was no feeling in it. Like that’s crazy. Like you need to show some feeling like, so when it’s expected and you don’t do it. It’s actually very undermining, I think, especially as a leader. Why Sharing Is an Underrated Leadership Tool  AW: Okay. I wanna, I wanna get into that as a leader, because you have the sentence that I’ve read, which is sharing is potentially the most overlooked leadership tool. I wanna go down that, but first I wanna close the loop on what I would call in my work with my clients, Leslie, I call it. Creating or controlling a narrative around Yeah. What’s going on completely. Because there’s completely a million ways to tell the same story. Right.  LJ: So, yeah.  AW: Yes. I see you nodding. So, yeah. Is another way to say what Yeah. What you’re suggesting. Yes.  LJ: Yes. Control the narrative. Exactly. Yeah. Control it. Yeah. Because if you don’t, other people are gonna do it, and so literally you’re controlling the narrative. Yeah.  AW: I think that controlling the narrative is also a hugely underleveraged skill that eople have like at all levels, but particularly ambitious folks who are looking to get ahead. And then people are like, well, why did that happen? Or why is that person doing that? Or Why is that person crying? Or why are they so upset? And then you tell them. You tell them, I am really upset right now because our entire team spent so much time on this and were really disappointed. And I think, you know, and then you create the narrative around it as opposed to look at how pissed off she is.  LJ: Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And so much of this like, it feels like overcommunicating, but it’s just communicating like you’re gonna feel like you’re overcommunicating, but turns out people can’t read your mind and your motivations. And so if you don’t tell them, then they’re gonna like make these all kinds of inferences that probably aren’t right. In fact, that’s another construct that I find fascinating that I encountered as I wrote the book, was mind reading expectations, how it’s a trait. You know, we, psychologists love measuring individual traits, and there’s a trait called mind-reading expectations, which is the extent to which you kind of naturally implicitly expect that your partners or your colleagues or your friends should just know what you’re thinking and feeling, which, when I say it so bluntly, it sounds. Of course that’s ridiculous. But yet so many of us have this implicit belief. I have it. I took the scale my, it’s on my website. You can take it yourself. I took the scale myself, and I realized I have this off the charts, but it’s been so helpful knowing that about myself, ’cause now like I realized, oh, I have to tell my husband that I slept badly and so I’m moody today. Like he can’t read my mind. Um, so it, it often feels like over-communicating, but then once you realize, oh yeah, they, they don’t know what’s going on in my head. I just have to tell them. And. Controlling the narrative is super important. I was just advising, um, anec ed participant about this is super common. Lots of times executives come to our programs, and they, you know, they’ll be like a, the, the focus, like a month-long program and they’ll be like transitioning. They wanna use it as a jumping point to like a new career or moving within their organization. And, um, and so I work like one of the. People I was just talking to, I was like, well, what’s your story? What’s your story when you go to a new employer? What’s your story? Because you’ve got a gap in your resume now. And like, what’s your story? And he started saying like, well, you know, private equity bought us. And then they found out I was redundant, and I’m like. Okay, what’s another story? And like the thing is, it’s like there’s lots and lots of different stories. You just have like they have, it has to be true, but there’s lots of different true stories. Pick the one that’s a strength, or like what my publicist said in coaching me for the book, my book publicity. The question, why did you write the book? Shaylyn, my publicist, said there are many answers to that question. Only one or two are actually interesting. So really like think like, choose your story intentionally.  AW: Yeah, there’s a million ways to tell the same story, even a million ways that are true. So tell your story in a way that serves you.  LJ: Exactly, yes. AW: We are aligned on that. Okay. Okay. Let’s move to this idea about sharing being an overlooked leadership tool. LJ: Ah, yeah.  AW: What do you mean by this?  LJ: So I mean that leaders act as if they need to project strength, confidence, invincibility, and perfection. Not that they were just had to change their shirt when they left the house ’cause there’s burp stuff on it. Like they can’t say that that’s how they act. And yet again and again in research, we have found that when leaders reveal a little bit. Not a lot.  It’s not like exposing all of your flaws, but some of them in a metered way, it actually makes their teams trust them more. It makes their teams more motivated, and it doesn’t undermine their credibility, the leader’s credibility at all.  AW: So why is this? Is this because we trust people when we know them better? Or like what is it about them? Or is the revealing like a signal of I trust you so I’m gonna share, and therefore you should, it’s both.  LJ: All of these things. Yeah, it’s so, it’s super fundamental where like when I say something personal to you, something a little sensitive, like let’s say in the workplace, if I was a leader, if I said I’m working on my time management skills. That’s what I’m talking about here. I’m not saying like I’m a like pathologically messy person, which is true, like outside of this window, it’s like a disaster. You’re not saying that. You’re saying like, I’m working on my time management skills. When I say that there’s risk to it, there’s social risk ’cause it’s sensitive. And so the act of doing that. Literally, I’m showing you, I trust you because I’m doing it by doing it. I’m implicitly saying, I trust you not to make a fool outta me. Right? And so when I show I trust you, it makes you trust me back. And that’s like the spark of like collaborations, of friendships, of intimacy, and so on, is that mutual trust. And so in the workplace, when a leader does this, so the the extra thing that’s going on, though, there’s other things too, which is that like leaders. They can be intimidating. They can be aloof. Like, even if their personalities aren’t that way, the fact that they’re high status and that they control resources that they have power is intimidating to people. And so when you share a little bit of what you’re working on, it humanizes you and it warms you up, and it makes people trust and like you. So you already have competence. But to be trustworthy, to be really an admired person, it’s not enough to be perceived as competent. You also have to be beloved. Which is, which is warmth, and basically revealing is a way to show that you’re warm too.  AW: Exactly. Okay. So imagine that there’s a successful leader out there listening to us right now, Leslie, and they’re like, okay, I wanna try this. What are some things that they can do that aren’t gonna, that aren’t gonna sound like they’re coming outta left field. Like, what the heck did this person just listen to a podcast or read a book? Like something that would sound like, how would you get started in doing this?  LJ: One area is. In the context of if lots of people do 360 feedback. So if you’re trying to get honest feedback from your teams, a typical thing that people will do, leaders will do, is they’ll say, they’ll basically be like, please tell me the honest truth. I can take it. I respect you. It’s anonymous. Blah blah. That doesn’t work. You know, just assuring someone that I can take it like makes me actually think you can’t take it. So, but what does work, and this is research outta Wharton, they actually did a study with leaders where they randomized half of the leaders to just do that, the normal, and the other half, they got them to share a little bit of something they’re working on. I’m working on time management, I’m working on organizational skills. Sometimes I feel a bit nervous public speaking these things. Mild, but work-related weaknesses. So when the leaders did that, the feedback they got was way more helpful. Like, people were actually comfortable giving them honest, helpful, constructive feedback. So that’s one thing that you can do immediately in that context. There’s other opportunities, like are you thinking of like kind of rapport building?  AW: So, implicit in your answer there, something, and maybe this is a bias of mine, but I think I also hear this from the folks that I coach, is that what could be overshared or revealed? They’re thinking about personal things, not professional, and your answer was about sharing workplace-focused or more professional-oriented vulnerabilities. So I think that that in itself is a point, right? Like if you’re not comfortable sharing something personal meaning, like from your personal life, how can you be vulnerable about your, maybe it’s something that you’re particularly worried about at work, or a skill that you’re developing at work, even that is considered revealing. LJ: Totally. That’s so interesting because, um, my, because I, it shows how like weird I am or something that, that, to me, revealing a weakness in a workplace is like more revealing than saying like. Something super personal about myself. Um, like that, I peed my pants on stage. Like that’s, but I realized that I’m abnormal. So I love the way you framed that, that like, if you don’t wanna do the risky thing of sharing something personal, you can do the less risky thing or more like. Context appropriate, like less weird from what the colleague, what your, your direct reports are gonna hear. Yeah. Share a work-related week is, and, and, or like, um, you know, oh, my handwriting is so messy. I hate that. I’m trying to make it better. Like you, like a foible. Even you think of the like Pratt fall effect in psychology of like, somebody spills a bit of coffee on themselves, and it makes them endearing and people like them for it. It’s kind of similar to that. Makes you more likable. I mean, almost anything personal that’s somewhat sensitive that you share will make you come across as more likable, as more warm. The exception there is sharing things about like unethical behavior. So best not to do that in the first place.  AW: If you’re revealing a character flaw that is, you know. Not something you’re working on necessarily. It’s like, okay.  LJ: Right, right. But, but even still, it’s interesting because it’s like relative to what? Well, if someone asks you what’s the worst grade you’ve ever gotten, like in a job interview, and the answer is F and you say, I’m gonna answering that question, you will be viewed with contempt relative to if you just say, yeah, I got an F. So sometimes like, admit, not that that’s immoral, but that’s like quite negative, right? I mean, even immoral things. We’ve tried it with immoral things too, and it’s re it’s the, the comparator is important too, right? Saying something that you’ve done that’s bad. Have you ever filed a false insurance claim? Yeah, I’ve done that all the time versus, versus, have you ever false decided to follow the false insurance claim? I’m not answering that question. Right. That’s so much worse. Neither of them is like optimal at all. I wouldn’t, um, you know, but that was a series of thought experiments to really push it and be like conspicuously withholding is so bad that it’s actually better to admit to bad things. The Reveal vs. Conceal Framework—and Our Omission Bias AW: Okay. So this is a beautiful transition to omission bias. Can you talk about, describe the two by two with the reveal, don’t reveal, and the pros and cons, and how and why there this pattern exists where we have this omission bias. I love this.  LJ: Oh, thanks. Yeah. This is kind of the North star of the book, which is, you know, how to make better disclosure decisions because on the whole, my view is that. We don’t disclose nearly enough. Like we’re way too scared of TMI, and we’re not scared enough about TLI, too little information. We didn’t even have a word for it until me.TLI is, I think T-L-I, T-L-I is a way bigger issue, but yeah, TMI, we still, TMI can be problematic. So, how do you decide, how do you adjudicate these decisions better? Like, do you tell your boss you have ADHD? Well, you might get accommodation, but they could discriminate against you. Do you, another example would be, suppose like you came up with this, some idea for like a new product or some innovative sourcing supply chain or whatever the idea is, and it took a team to bring it to life, but you, it was your idea and you hear your colleague say to the boss, oh yeah, it was a team idea, teamwork. A part of you dies inside ’cause you’re like, I love my team, but it was my idea. And so like, what do you do? Do you, how do you even make that decision? Like, do you speak up or not? Well, when I ask people to consider these types of dilemmas, the number one thing they think about their mind immediately goes to the risks of revealing. So, it’ll be an awkward conversation. They’re gonna hate me. I’m gonna come across as petty and needy, like risks of revealing, and those are valid. Those are real risks of revealing. But the problem is, this is so crazy again and again in my research. Like people do not come up with the other. There’s four things. It’s a two by two, right? We love two by twos. At HBS, we love two-by-twos in our MBA lives. So this is just one quadrant of risks of revealing what else is there? There is the risk of not revealing. There is the benefit of revealing and there’s the benefit of not revealing. So it’s a risk. Risk, reward, reveal, don’t reveal. It’s a two by two. And what the omission bias tells us is that the omission bias means that we’re kind of really, um, very, very sensitive to bad things that happen in the wake of things we did. So when disclosure terms, that means we really beat ourselves up for unfortunate things that we shouldn’t have said. Regrettable disclosures. Okay. That’s because that’s a sin of commission. On the other hand, not revealing something we should have revealed, like praising a colleague who we think is amazing, withholding praise, or, um, not telling our crush, not having the guts to tell our crush in college that we love them, like not disclosing. That’s a sin of omission, and we’re not so worried about those sins of omission. We don’t beat ourselves up over not having taken. Important actions. Right? Even saying that is confusing cognitively, right? But yet sins of commission, bad things we did, blurting something, and seeing to people cringe. That’s aish sin of commiss. We’re really sensitive to it. By contrast, not revealing. Something that we should have is a sin of omission and a kind of, we don’t even code it as a sin off and we don’t even realize it. Because it’s like missed opportunities are the Yeah. Right. ‘Cause you didn’t know anything north salient. Right. Right. You didn’t, you didn’t do anything. Yeah. Yeah. And so one of the things I’ve started doing in my life is just trying to gain a more appreciation for the opportunities to share because of omission bias. It’s so insidious that it causes us to not even. Realize the opportunities that we have to share. So like I started doing these things that I call disclosure audits where I’d like go through the day and I would, um, so I’d, ’cause I’m a nerd, I’m gonna do some quick data collection here. I would go through the day and I’d have, I’d have a sheet. Okay. The sheet says it’s a tally. It says, said unsaid. And because so much of. The things I don’t even consider revealing, it’ll become clear. Uh, just a two-minute exercise here. So I wake up in the morning, typical boring day. I wake up in the morning, I roll over in bed. I say, good morning, Collie to my husband. What I don’t say is I slept like crap. When I don’t sleep well, can’t regulate my emotions, I’m gonna need kid gloves. I don’t say any of that. It doesn’t, it doesn’t occur to me to say it. We’re standing in the bathroom, brushing our teeth. I think to myself, I feel older than I thought I would at this age. And then I’m like, wait, is that a zit? I’m 45. How come I still have acne? I don’t say any of this. And so we haven’t even gotten to breakfast, and I’m five to one. Five onsets, one said. And the point isn’t that like, I mean, in this case, I think I should have said all of those things, but you know, I get to my office later in the day, my assistant asks, how are you? I say, I’m great. What I don’t say is, I’m overwhelmed. I’m exhausted. I got a big presentation. I don’t say that. I think that’s fine. Like. The point isn’t just for all the unsaid things to be said, you don’t want that. I don’t want that. The point is like, ’cause sometimes we withhold for good reasons. Sometimes we don’t have time, or we’re being thoughtful, or there are status imbalances that would make it unkind to share. But so often we don’t even appreciate these as opportunities. We don’t code them as decisions. We just default to silence. But they are decisions and I. We should treat them as such and consider revealing more in all of those. The ones I wrote down, I think I should have said, because like talking about my body to my husband, like that’s a source of intimacy. How you actually feel about yourself and knowing that your partner knows how you feel is like the source of intimacy. Feeling known for who you are is like probably the most powerful source of intimacy. So I’m blabbing on, but um, can you tell I feel passionately, but so that omission bias makes us, we don’t even realize it. So I’ve been trying to kind of like. I realize these things, and then once you realize you have way more opportunities, then you can do the matrix, the two by two and start. And with the thing about the like, oh, should I say something about this person who didn’t credit my idea? Immediately? We know the risks, but if I then get you to go further and say, okay, those are valid. What are some risks of not revealing? You might say, well, hmm, I’ll ruminate, and I’ll brood, and when I brood it, passive aggression maybe seeps out, and maybe I’ll, maybe that will be bad for our relationship. When you start to see, oh, there’s risks in the other way. If I could figure out how to say it to the person, which is a whole other topic, is like, how to say hard things. But we can do, there’s good science on that. So suppose we, we figure out how to say it. If I say it, then that person will know me, that I care about ideas, and ideas matter, and maybe I’ll respect before that. So that’s kind of how I think about these decisions now.  AW: So you’re reminding me, Leslie, recently I had a conversation with a friend, a neighbor who is in his fifties, and he, for the first time is bike riding. And he signed up to do this, like really like endurance ride. And he’s like, am I crazy? And I said to him, we don’t regret. We do. We regret what we don’t do, and I feel like we can also say we don’t regret what we say as much as we maybe regret what we don’t say.  LJ: It’s so right. It is, but it’s weird. It’s a little bit tricky because in the short run. We like immediately after we say something a little edgy or we do something we maybe shouldn’t have, we feel regret over the thing we did. We, and right afterwards, we feel more regret over sins of commission, regrettable things we did than things that we did not say that we should have. But over time, it completely flips over time, and that’s the important thing that you’re highlighting. Over time, you end up regretting. You’re like, whatever. I made some silly joke that doesn’t matter. What I really regret is I didn’t tell my first love how I really felt, and now I don’t have them anymore. The first chapter tells a story. I mean, they’re lucky tho those two people because they ended up reuniting. But so often I think that’s so relatable to people and to me, one of the things that just really blew my mind when I was doing research for the book was the, I mean, this is Tom Gil’s work on regret, but it’s also. In a parallel universe, a woman by the name of Brony Ware found this as well. So she’s a palliative care nurse, and so she spent many, many hours with people in their final moments, and she started kind of grouping together the things people say they regret. And four out of the five top regrets are regrets of things they did not do. And number three is directly about not sharing. Its number three is I wish I had shared my feelings more.  AW: I mean, just read that chapter, and you will be revealing more. So Leslie, I wanna talk to you a little bit about personalities. So, in your book you talk about the revealers who may err on the side of TMI and maybe concealers who err on the side of TLI, and the assumptions that we make about the types of people who share and don’t share. Can you summarize for us? I guess what the mistake is, the mistake and assumption that we make, and what the data actually shows you.  LJ: Yes. So when I ask people, what personality trait do you think is most associated with revealers? People say extroversion, but that’s what I call the extroversion illusion, because I tested this for the, because this research didn’t exist. So I’m like, oh, I’m gonna figure this out. And it turns out that. Extroversion is not related to whether you’re a revealer or a concealer, which actually kind of makes sense when you think about it, because extroverts they’re talkative, they’re bubbly, they’re positive affect, they’re outgoing, but like. Like, decibels doesn’t mean depth, you know, it doesn’t necessarily mean, and then when I started thinking like one of my best friends is a hardcore extrovert, like so much so that I’m such a social loafer in situations with her because she just does all the talking and I can just like hang back. Um, and she, she says, says this public, like she struggles with vulnerability so. By contrast, I’m kind of more introverted, I’ve become more extroverted, but I’m more introverted, and I’m very reveal. So the one trait that is very strongly predictive of. Being comfortable opening up is agreeableness. Agreeableness plays along well with others, kind of easygoing. And the reason is because a central facet of agreeableness is trusting others. People who are agreeable, just super trusting, which is me, like I’m. It’s burned me before. I mean it’s, but I, I still would rather be more trusting than less trusting. Um, so it’s agreeableness that is predictive of being revealing.  AW: So when I read that, I was like, that makes so much sense. The agreeable folks assume the best in others and therefore maybe the risk of omission. For them is not as high as it would be for people that are low on agreeableness. I love that point. I think so. So folks out there, if you’ve taken the big five a personality test, think about your level of agreeableness on that scale and then ask yourself whether that maybe correlates with your propensity to reveal.  LJ: Yeah.  AW: And you have a quiz on your website, don’t you, Leslie?  LJ: I do. Yeah. I was just gonna say, yeah, so there’s a mind-reading quiz, and there’s a, um, like do you have a revealing personality quiz so you can, you can test yourself.  AW: Okay, awesome. I’ll put the links to all of that, plus the diagram of the two by two and more in the show notes for people to access.  Rapid-Fire Questions and Final Reflections on Revealing Are you ready for the three rapid-fire questions?  LJ: Yes. I feel unprepared, but let’s, maybe it’ll be even better.  AW: Well, guess what? I think you’ve already answered the first one, so this will be really rapid, but the first question is. Are you an extrovert or an introvert?  LJ: Oh, introvert. Which is surprising, but I do think that I have, I know that I’ve become more extroverted, which I’m happy about. ’cause extroverts are happier. And I think honestly the re, I know this is rapid fire. Sorry. The reason I’m more extroverted is because of kids. Like they force me to push. ‘Cause you know, you go to social events, you hang out with other moms like you. And then I realized, oh, people are, I kind of like people. I kind of like talking to people.  AW: Nice. I wasn’t expecting, I wasn’t expecting a one word answer from a psychologist on that question. Don’t worry. Okay. This one, I have no idea what you’re gonna say. What is your communication pet peeve? What drives you crazy that other people do?  LJ: Oh, I have so many of them talking too much. Talking too much is a big pet peeve. ’cause I’m thinking of my workplace and people that in meetings they just talk too much, and they may tend to be of a certain gender more likely than others. That drives me crazy when people, it’s fine to be talkative if you have substance. Another communication pet peeve is, um, not being grateful. Not saying thank you. Not saying please, like I am like with my kids. I’m like, what was that? What do you, I guess,  AW: Yeah.  LJ: That’s maybe how I’m screwing them up. They have to be like, they’re so polite. AW:  I put the fear, you know, what I do with my kids is I just say, my kids are a little older than yours. I just say, you’re welcome. And then I walk. I’m like, I’m not gonna keep asking you to say thank you. We’re past that point, but I am gonna use my manners and say, you’re welcome. That’s awesome. It’s a little passive-aggressive. Okay. A little question number. Question number three. Is there a book other than yours and a podcast other than mine that you find yourself recommending to people lately? LJ: Okay. A book. Yes. I love so many books. So the book I’m gonna recommend is right here, but it’s a little revealing. It’s sitting here. This is the book. I have never felt so heard in my life. The book, I don’t even, I feel bad saying the name out loud. Should I say it?  AW: You definitely should.  LJ: Okay. The book is called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. That’s what it’s called. AW: Is Your Mom Terrible Podcast episode.  LJ: I hope not. Um,  AW: Well, she doesn’t believe in psychology. You said that at the very beginning. LJ: Yeah, I mean, like, I love, I, okay now I have to say, which is true. And now it’s just gonna sound disingenuous ’cause, but literally the book is sitting right here, so I’m like, I have, I can’t not, um, no, I think she’d be like, well you, she has. I have the book. ’cause it’s, I’m just, I’m a psychologist. I’m, it’s literature. I’m learning. I like to learn. Like, I don’t, I don’t think she would, um. Ize it like that. I’ve actually had this conversation with my brother because they were coming over, and I’m like, oh shit, I gotta hide the book. And will’s like, no, no, no. You don’t have to hide the book. She’s not gonna internalize it. You may wanna cut this, but, um, but I, uh, but I, you know, and this is like, I would not be where I am in my life without my parents. Like they’ve just given me. So, like, I just live a charmed life and I’m, I’m, I’m truly. Super, super grateful.  AW: And both can be true.  LJ: Both can  be true. Yeah, exactly right. Both can be, and you know, I’m writing the book was the best therapy for me. Like I really, as you know, in chapter three, like there was a really big thing that I had kept from my mother, and it was like this distance between us, and then we talked about it, and now like our relationship is even stronger. Like, I feel like also it’s helped me to maybe grow up a bit and realize, you know, when you’re a child, your parents are perfect. And now finally that I’m in my forties, I’m like, oh, they have strengths and weaknesses, just like everyone. And I don’t fall. Like they’re just human, and they’re, we, they’re ama, their strengths are just so amazing. AW: Oh, that’s nice. That’s nice. So, for the record I did, and I might be in the minority here, I did not see it coming, that you were describing your first person story. You were like, by now you’ve probably realized it was me. I’m like, what?  LJ: That’s so funny.  AW: I didn’t know, and I even knew, I even knew before I picked up your book that there was gonna be a story that demonstrates the power of revealing. Like, I even knew that going into the book.  LJ: How did you, I guess maybe someone told you or something.  AW: I think it’s, it was in the, um. The HBS alumni bulletin summary. Oh, okay, LJ: Okay. AW:  That makes sense. It’s like you, you share something in the book that demonstrates the power, whatever. Yeah. So I was like, oh. Anyway. Um, yeah. Yeah. So what about a pod? Is there a podcast that you. LJ: Oh yeah, yeah. Sorry. Podcast. I mean, there’s just so many. I’m trying to think of, I’m looking at my phone at what my fate, what the ones I’ve been listening to lately. I mean, I know this isn’t a very original one, but I really. Love the Mel Robbins show. I love it because she has taught me so much by listening to it about how to communicate. Like there’s a lot of things that she does that I as a scientist can’t, won’t do. Like the number one thing, like,  AW: I’m glad to hear you say that because a lot of people reject her podcast because of that. So I’m surprised to hear that you like it, but I think you’re right. LJ: Right? Like if you, if you like put it in perspective. It’s so good and I just like be talking about my book with the media world where people are great communicators. I’ve realized how much in a bubble I am in academia and how much we suck at communicating. Like try to read a journal article, right? Like they’re ill incomprehensible. Which is so ironic ’cause it’s like we’re doing all this new, finding new things, but nobody knows what we’re finding and so. I just think that all scientists should take a lesson from, whether it’s Mel Robbins or not to be like hyperbole, but like. Communicate extremely clearly what the key thing is. And um, so I like it for that reason. But I agree like it’s jumping the shark if I would do that, like that’s totally jumping the shark, but there’s so much that I’ve learned from it.  AW: Oh, I love that. I feel like that was a little bit revealing. It’s a little bit risky as an academic to say that.  LJ: Yeah, I guess it is. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,  AW: Yeah. But you created a narrative around it. That is very valid. So look at, look at how meta this has become, which often happens. I wanna say thank you so much, Leslie, for your time. I really enjoyed this conversation and I have a copy of your book right behind me, and I hope that either when I come to Boston or you come to Toronto, that you can sign this for me. I can’t, I can’t wait for that.  LJ: And I can’t wait for you to sign your book to me when you, when it comes out. I can’t wait to read it. It’s gonna be so good.  AW: I would love that too. Trust me. So. Is there any last advice you wanna share with the talk about, talk listeners, these ambitious professionals about the power of revealing? LJ: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s that revealing is a skill. We often, sometimes we think of it as we’re either good or bad at it, but I really think it’s a skill. We, weirdly, we’re never taught it, but like any skill, you know, we can get better at it. With practice, with experimentation, with reflection. And I guess what I would say there is. I always encourage people to like try sharing more, trying a little bit more, not a like, not dumping yourself, but like a little bit more and see what happens. And also it’s a bit of a gift to occasionally feel the TMI sting because if you never feel it, you’re not doing it enough, you’re not going far enough. So celebrate it when you hit that. And then dial it back a bit, but it’s, that’s part of the learning, I think.  AW: Fantastic advice. Thank you so much, Leslie. Your 3 Key Takeaways on Revealing at Work Thanks again to Professor Leslie John. Now as always, I wanna summarize with three key learnings that I hope you take away from this episode. Just briefly. Number one, I want you to think. Revealing and deciding about what to reveal at work as a skill that you can develop. Simply listening to this episode gave you some insights and frameworks to help you do so. This is a skill that you can learn. Number two is our propensity to have an omission bias. I want you to really think about the two by two. Maybe take out a piece of paper and write this out right now. A simple two by two. So a box with a vertical line and a horizontal line through it. And on one dimension you have reveal or not reveal. In other words, reveal or conceal. And on the other dimension, you have the pros and the cons, or the benefits and the disadvantages. The bias that we have that Professor Leslie John highlighted is the omission bias. So we have a propensity to believe that the cons or the disadvantages associated with revealing something are higher than they actually are very often there are more benefits. To revealing things than not. So the next time you’re actually considering consciously whether to share something or not, you can pull out a piece of paper, draw this two by two, and really think carefully about what the benefits and the disadvantages are of revealing versus concealing. The third and last thing that I wanna reinforce with you is that. If and when you’re deciding that you wanna reveal more at work, there are really two ways that you can think about this. This came through in the conversation. I thought this was fascinating. So what you decide to reveal could be in a personal context or in a professional context. So that’s it for this episode. I hope we’ve helped you think a little bit differently about revealing and oversharing at work. Talk soon. The post Oversharing: “Revealing” with Harvard Business School Professor Leslie John (ep.211) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Have you ever been told you need to work on your “executive presence” and walked away thinking, what does that even mean? In this Talk About Talk episode, you’re getting a front-row seat to one of Dr. Andrea Wojnicki’s live training sessions. Andrea reframes the way we think about executive presence, calling it what it really is: leadership presence, and shares five concrete strategies to help you build it. You’ll also hear live Q&A from the audience on everything from dressing for presence, to navigating small talk in a high-stakes geopolitical moment, to showing up credibly across cultures. Executive Presence 2.0 by Sylvia Ann Hewlett – https://amzn.to/4bGiZex CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube TRANSCRIPTION Andrea Wojnicki: Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk.  Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk, where I coach ambitious professionals to improve their communication. So you can achieve your career goals.  Rethinking Executive Presence: From Vague Feedback to Actionable Skills This episode is a little bit different from most. You’re gonna hear a live training session that I ran recently, focused on leadership presence and executive presence. In this episode, you’re gonna learn my framework for leadership presence, and you’re gonna hear five different strategy that you can choose to adopt to help you boost your leadership presence. You’ll also hear live questions from the audience for this session. I hope you enjoy it. Here we go. Welcome everyone. We are here today to talk about executive presence. So if you’re here, I’m guessing that either. You are a very ambitious person who has looked around at the folks around you that are knocking it outta the park in terms of their career. And you’re like, what is different about them? And I have people who come to me, and they’re like, it’s communication, but it’s more than communication, Andrea. It’s their executive presence.  So that might be you, or you may have been told by someone, maybe a mentor, or maybe even your boss. It might have come up in your annual review that you need to work on developing your executive presence. I hear this a lot from folks. So the good news is I do a lot of thinking, writing, and coaching about executive presence. I’m gonna be encouraging you in the next hour to start to think about executive presence in a little bit of a different way, but a way where you can get traction. So here’s my promise to you. I’m gonna share with you a framework for how you can think about this sometimes nebulous topic or vague topic, you could say in a way that can really help you get traction in developing your executive presence. And I’m also gonna share with you, I’m a, for those of you who know me, I’m a big fan of the power of three, but I’m actually gonna share with you five different strategies or tactics that can help you establish this elusive executive presence. And so my challenge to you is to identify which one or two of these five that I’m sharing with you that you can adopt for yourself. So consistent with being, you know, focused on the power of three, we’re really gonna go through three things. First of all, we’re gonna talk about what executive presence is, and this is where I think I might surprise some of you with how I think about defining executive presence. The second thing. I’m gonna share with you the five different ways of establishing executive presence. And the third thing is, I’m gonna share with you an opportunity for you to work with me. It’s a program that I have to help people establish their executive presence and beyond, and then we’re gonna open it up for an open q and a, which is truly, it’s become my favorite part of doing these live coaching sessions. What Is Executive Presence—and Why It Feels So Vague So, as I said, some people. Are sent to me by their boss to work on their executive presence, and some people proactively come to me. And interestingly, something that I’ve noticed, and I’ve been reading a little bit about this lately, many people are not a big fan of the term executive presence. And there may be a couple reasons for this. The one that I think is very valid is that executive presence seems very subjective, right? It’s like you know it when you see it, but how do you actually define it? And in fact, some people have told me, and I think that this is a very eloquent way of putting it, that being told that you need to develop your executive presence can sound like vague coded feedback. That means you don’t have the it factor and you probably never will. I’ve heard those exact words from a couple of my clients, and they’re like, Andrea, I need to figure this out. And I’m like. It can be subjective, but we’re gonna turn it into something that’s a little bit more tangible or quantifiable, like real skills spec. We’re gonna specify, forget this vagueness, forget this coded feedback. We’re gonna make it into something that where you can get some traction. So when I ask people to define what they think it means, usually what comes up is something around gravitas. And inspiring people. So it’s a combination, often of gravitas, which I would say is a synonym for confidence as an executive, right, and inspiring people. And I would push back on that definition. I would say that sounds a little bit like a definition of effective leadership in general. There is a book, which I have over here by Sylvia Ann Hewlett, that is one of the best books I’ve read on executive presence, and she recently republished it. It’s called EP, as in Executive Presence 2.0, and she says there are three ingredients based on her research in what comprise executive presence. It is  in fact, number one is gravitas. Number two is communication skills, and number three is what she calls how you show up. So your physical presence, and it’s kind of in that order, right? So if you’re gonna, if you’re gonna do one thing, it’s establishing gravitas, and then it’s communication skills, and then it’s how you show up. When I read this book, I thought to myself, for those I see some people in the room here that I’ve coached before. You probably know that I coach people on all of these topics. I would consider gravitas and confidence to be. A communication skill. Of course, communication skills are communication skills, and how you show up is certainly a communication skill. So I say great executive presence is all about communication. So that’s why we’re here, and that’s why I’m here to coach you. I wanna read to you the definition from Sylvia Ann Hewlett’s book about what she says executive presence is, it’s something to think about here. She says, executive presence is typically perceived as consisting of three elements in descending order of importance, gravitas, skillful communication. The right appearance having, and she tells a story about showing up for her first job, interview out of college, dressed completely wrong, and how she attributes that to the fact that she didn’t get the job. So a lot of people say, well, how I dress doesn’t matter. It matters. People see you often before they hear a word that comes outta your mouth. So I would say that this is a great start, but based on my years of coaching. Hundreds of ambitious professionals, leaders, and aspiring professionals and leaders. I’ve noticed a trend, and I’m gonna share a framework with you. I’m also gonna encourage you to think about this executive presence in a different way. So I’m gonna start sharing my screen here. I want you to rethink executive presence. Because of the issues that I said before that it may be vague coded feedback. Some people also say when they think of executive presence, they think of like an old school 1990s. Dictatorship, authoritarian style male in a standing behind a podium, in a blue pinstripe suit. I know some of you, I see some names where we were hanging out in those days, and that was what an effective leader with executive presence looked like. Okay?  From Executive Presence to Leadership Presence So I’m encouraging us now to rethink this and maybe call it. Leadership presence, and I would say leadership presence, ’cause that’s really what we’re aspiring to, right? Leadership presence is the ability to establish credibility and create impact. So you’re doing things, you can see there’s this upward arrow, right? You are doing all the things. Maybe some of the things that Sylvia Ann Hewlett, the author of, of EP 2.0, all of the things that she talked about will help you establish credibility so that you can create impact.  And by the way, what is impact? I turn the question back to you. What is your goal? Are you looking to get promoted? Are you looking to get a new job? Are you looking to be heard in meetings? I hear this all the time. I don’t say a lot in meetings, Andrea, and when I do, people ignore me, and then someone else will say something similar, and they’ll get all the attention. I literally had this conversation last night in a coaching session. So impact can be big or small, right? Being heard, it can be having people congratulate you after you give a formal presentation. It can be a new job, it can be a promotion, it can be any of these things. The impact is what you want. And then how are you gonna get there? Well, there’s, you can see there’s a few steps here, but you’re not gonna get there unless you have credibility in the eyes of others. Okay. So I am encouraging us to define a new term and maybe forego this executive presence term, which has some baggage, and instead call it leadership presence.  Five Ways to Build Leadership Presence (Where to Focus First) Okay, so now I’m gonna share with you five ways to work your way up this hierarchy or this pyramid. Like I said, I’m a big fan of the power of three, but we have an hour together, so I’m, I’m gonna share five with you. The first is, you know, I’m a communication coach, and I would say making sure that you’re never gonna have credibility if you’re not an effective communicator, right? It’s as simple as that. And so by foundational communication skills, by the way, I do not mean the basics. I don’t mean easy things. I mean foundational communication skills, like being a really effective formal presenter. Learning how to lead meetings that are really impactful. I’m talking about listening skills and not just shifting from what a lot of people default to, which is passive to active listening. There are many, many ways that you can focus on your foundational communication skills. And by the way, the most. Successful senior folks that I coach are constantly upgrading their foundational communication skills. I’m not sure if foundational is the right word, ’cause I don’t want people to think it means like basic things that you get outta the way. They’re things that are the foundation of how you present yourself. And so three great examples are introducing yourself with confidence, listening, as I mentioned, and formal presentation skills. For those of you who haven’t heard or learned myself, introduction framework, I just wanna say this. Your self-introduction is the most direct way that you have to reinforce your professional identity. These are your words from you about you. So it is well worth your time to learn how to introduce yourself with confidence. And this does not mean learning a script that you memorize and rehearse and then spit out why? Because it sounds rehearsed. Because it is, and it’s not customized for your audience. So instead, I encourage you to learn my framework, and I think someone’s gonna put it in the chat so you can read the article if you like it. There’s an HBR article from 2020 that I had published with this framework, and in 2023 is one of the three most downloaded articles at hbr.org. The framework is really easy. You don’t even need to take notes to remember it. It’s three things, present, past, future. So who are you, what do you do, and where do you do it? Hi, my name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at talk about Talk Boom, who you are and what you do. And if you’re between jobs, you could say, my expertise is in the finance industry or in the pharmaceutical industry. And I’m a finance expert, right? So you could clarify what your industry or functional and or functional expertise is. So that’s step one. Present past tense. Here’s where in a professional context, you establish credibility, so you could. Mention previous jobs. You could mention a project that you just finished. You could mention an award that you won. You could mention your credentials, your university degrees, whatever this is. You choose, depending on the context, one, two, or three things to help you establish your credibility. And again, it’s not a script. You’re choosing the things that are relevant.  So if I’m pitching to an HR leader who’s thinking about bringing me in to do some coaching or workshops for the folks on their team. I will tell them about how I earned my doctorate from Harvard Business School, where my research focused on exactly what I’m coaching you on. It was interpersonal communication and consumer psychology. I would mention that I used to teach at the University of Toronto in the MBA program, or whatever I thought was relevant for that person. Right. So you establish. Credibility with the past tense, and then you shift to the future. This is easy, and it’s often forgotten, but it’s like the icing on the cake. One or two sentences where you demonstrate enthusiasm about the future. Like, I’m really excited to help all of you establish executive presence or leadership presence so your careers can skyrocket. Ideally, you make it about the other person, what you’re excited about for them. Okay, so introducing yourself with confidence. You just had a quick coaching session there. The three-point framework. It’s present. Past future. It’s not chronological. You start with, you anchor yourself with the present, who you are, and what you do. You establish credibility by talking about the past, and then you move to the future, and you talk about how enthusiastic you are about the future. This is a foundational communication skill. I encourage you to try this framework if you haven’t already, as soon as possible, and it’ll become a life skill. The next time someone says, let’s go around the table or around the screen and introduce ourselves, you’ll probably do what I do and go, oh gosh. And then you’ll say, ah, I have a framework, and you’re gonna nail it.  So there’s introducing yourself with confidence. There’s listening beyond. Just act passive to active. Let’s seek really collaborative listening where you believe that you have insights. The other person has insights, and if you listen carefully to together, you’re gonna come up with something amazing. So pushing your listening to be at a new level. By the way, I always say this when I coach people on listening. You can’t be listening at this ultra high level all the time. It is exhausting. It’s really about self-awareness. So I’m in this training session right now with Andrea. I think I’m gonna be actively listening. I’m not gonna be this collaborative level. I’m gonna be active later on. When you’re in a meeting, and it’s something that you already know everything about, you might slip into passive listening, which is where you’re kind of pretending to listen. Maybe you’re writing a few notes just to keep yourself awake. Being conscious of what level of listening you’re at, I think is actually a superpower. Again, it’s about self-awareness and then formal presentation skills. The one thing I would say in terms of how to get better at formal presentation skills is practice. Just do it every chance. You get leading meetings, doing formal presentations, doing informal presentations. The more you do it, the easier it gets and the more fun it gets.  I’m gonna say I have some horror stories that some of you, I know, some of you have heard, but I decided that was not acceptable, and so I started practicing, and now I do love it. I even have a podcast, so obviously I love formal presentations. Okay, so that’s the first way to establish your leadership presence is work. And these are just three. I’m gonna give you three for each of the five, three ways. So, three ways to improve your foundational communication skills, introducing yourself effectively and boosting your listening formal presentation skills. Okay. The second way to establish leadership presence is to communicate with precision. Now, I would say that precision counts as a foundational communication skill, but I, when I was pulling this together for us today, I wanted to pull this one out because of this very interesting insight. I think it’s interesting folks that are more junior in their career often come to me. Saying, Andrea, I have imposter syndrome, and I need some help speaking up. It’s like they want to speak more. And then the more senior and successful folks that I coach actually say the opposite. They’re like, Andrea, I ramble sometimes, and I need you to help me communicate with precision. I wanna speak less, but with more impact. So I have this pair of scissors here. This is about brevity, so taking up less airtime. And clarity, so making sure that you are really clear. So I of course have three suggestions for how you can do that. The first one that I always say, when people come to me seeking precision in their communication, this is the most important thing you can do. Speak in headlines. Use headlines. What does that mean? That means when you send an email, sure. Your first sentence might be, I hope you had a great weekend, but your second sentence should be, the purpose of this email is, or I’m sending you this recommendation and the, you know, the accompanying evidence or whatever it is, like you tell them what you’re going to tell them. I recently came up with this kind of saying that I have to explain this, which is if you’re writing a screenplay or you’re writing a novel, suspense is great, but suspense is not an effective strategy in business. Do not rely on suspense. Instead, tell them what you’re gonna tell them right away. So speak in headlines. The second thing here is the power of three. If you know me, if you’ve listened to my podcast, if you’ve seen my posts on LinkedIn, if you know me at all, you know that I’m a huge fan of the power of three. I even have three kids and the power of three is actually grounded in science. So three is, I hope your default whenever you’re wondering how many, why? Because three is balanced. Think about a tripod, right? You need three legs or a stool with three legs. It’s balanced. Three is enough that it sounds like a trend. So it’s substantial or substantive, but it’s not overwhelming. And three is easily memorized. It’s memorable or easy to recall. Remember, in the self-introduction framework, it’s three steps, not an accident. Whenever I ask myself, how many, whatever should I include, I always say three. And if three is not enough, make it three groups of three. So I’m writing a book right now about some of the material that you’re hearing today, and I have three parts: part one, part two, and part three. And each of them has three chapters. So use the power of three. This will help you in communicating with precision because you’ll tell people with your headline, here’s my recommendation, and then you’ll say, there are many reasons why this is the right way to go. Why? This is my recommendation. I’m gonna share with you three reasons as soon as you tell them that you’re anchoring the people that are listening in. Basically, how long you’re gonna talk. And then you say, the first thing is blah, blah, blah. The second thing is the blah, blah, blah. And imagine if you hadn’t told them that you were going to use the power of three, and you just started listing things. After two people start to go, how much longer is she gonna keep talking? Right? So tell people it’s the power of three. Follow the power of three, and then you can restate what the three things are. Okay. The last way that I’m gonna suggest that you communicate with precision is what I call tracking the ratio. So what do I mean by this? I mean tracking the ratio of the airtime that you’re taking up in a meeting. So far, I’ve taken up 100% of the airtime, not including the chat, thankfully, in this meeting, but typically, if you were in a meeting with three other people, so there’s four of you, I encourage you, no matter what level you’re at, to say what would be my fair share of the airtime? It would be 25% if there’s four of us. And then say, typically, do I speak too much or not enough? If you don’t speak enough, try to take up 25% of the airtime. If you’re the leader, you should probably be speaking less, so you should say, I wanna keep it down. And also, this is really important. If you are a leader and you are demonstrating leadership presence, you are tracking the ratio of everyone in the meeting that you’re leading. And if someone’s not speaking up. You can very gracefully encourage them to do so by saying something like, Jane, I noticed you haven’t said anything yet, and I also know that you have a great expertise and background in whatever the area is. I’d be really interested to hear what you have to say, and then just go quiet, and the person will feel flattered because you authentically flattered them about their expertise, and they’ll pipe in. So track the ratio, whether you speak not enough or too much, and if you’re a leader, track the ratio of everyone in the room and make sure that all of the people in the room are meeting participants, not just meeting attendees, right? If someone’s sitting there and they’re not saying a word and you really don’t need them to say a word, then I say they shouldn’t even be in the meeting anyway. You can send them the minutes later, right? Okay. So that’s the second of five ways to establish leadership presence. The third is communicating with confidence. So. Remember, in my definition of leadership presence, it’s establishing credibility so you can create an impact. How do you establish credibility? A big factor in driving credibility is your confidence. It’s how you feel and how other people are perceiving you. So I like to think of confidence really, and this is how I always talk about a confidence in terms of three things, imposter syndrome, confidence boosting tactics. Then mindset. So the first thing I say here is lean into imposter syndrome. There’s so much research about imposter syndrome and the thing that may surprise all of you is even in the original research, this term was coined based on research on successful people. Successful people feel imposter syndrome. So lean into it. And furthermore, if you’re not feeling imposter syndrome, one of two things is probably true. Either you’re arrogant. You’re done learning. And probably not. There aren’t that many arrogant people, so I’m gonna say, or more likely, you’re not pushing yourself. So I get a lot of calls from folks who have just got a big promotion and then their confidence plummets, and they’re like, Andrea, I need help. I don’t know why, but I’m feeling this imposter syndrome. And then they tell me that they just got this big promotion into a different area. And I say. Your imposter syndrome is because you’re pushing yourself to learn new things. You should celebrate that. So lean into imposter syndrome instead of that. When you feel that icky feeling, I feel it in my chest, like adrenaline, right? I feel like someone kind of punched me in the chest instead. And when I feel that instead of thinking, oh gosh, I have imposter syndrome and letting myself go into a downward spiral, I say. You know what? That’s the spark of positive energy that I need to shine in this workshop that I’m coaching right now. And successful people put themselves in situations where there are high stakes. So, imposter syndrome is a good thing. Then the next two are the tactics and mindsets that different things work for different people. But the one thing you need to know as you’re experimenting with different ways of improving your confidence is that confidence can be learned. Trust me, I have epically failed in the confidence department and been able to build my confidence based on using some of these tactics. So in terms of tactics, I would say things like being expansive. I’m holding my arms out here, being expansive, confident people take up space. So whether you’re seated around the boardroom table or standing in front of a room, remind yourself that confident people take up space. And the two illustrations of that kind of prove this one is think about Trump. I’m not gonna get political here, but think about pictures of Trump in the Oval Office, right? He’s manspreading. I see photos all the time. He’s got his arms out, he’s got his legs out. He is taking up space. Now, I don’t know that he’s doing it on purpose, but he’s showing that he is confident and credible in that room. So that’s one example. And the other example that I think of is remember when you were back in college or high school, and the teacher would ask a question, and then they’d turn around and look. And if you didn’t know what the answer was, you’d try to make yourself really small. Right? We kind of hide versus if you knew the answer, you’d be like, oh, oh. At least some people would, right? So those are great examples of how we make ourselves small when we don’t wanna be seen, and how we make ourselves expansive. So the tactic of making yourself expansive is a big one. Slowing down your breathing is such a simple and hugely effective way of boosting your confidence. I’ve read this research in detail, and here’s the insight. If you slow your exhale in particular, your brain says. Hang on a second. I’m not gasping for air. Everything must be okay. And then your blood chemistry will actually change. Your stress hormones will stop being produced, and you’ll feel less stressed out. So if you’re up on stage and you feel this shot of adrenaline, it’s not like you’re gonna be heavy breathing into the microphone. However, you can quietly slow your exhale knowing that that will boost your confidence. And then there are confidence-boosting mindsets. Things like really focusing on learning. If you are, so I’m not talking about this, I’m gonna say it. Stupid advice that we often hear, like there’s no such thing as failure. Only learning. Come on, you can fail. But if you are genuinely, authentically focused on learning all the time, especially in these high-stakes contexts, you really can’t fail. In fact, the story of your epic failure, like the one of me failing when I was on stage, can become part of your story and catapult you into future success. So one of the mindsets that I encourage people is really think about a growth mindset. Really learning into that, leaning into that lifelong learning mindset. And another mindset that I know works really well is focusing on your personal brand. Your unique strengths focusing on your superpowers. So in the research on social psychology, they talk about global self-esteem. So generally, how confident are you? And then they talk about domain-specific self-esteem. So my question for you is, and you might wanna write this down right now, in what areas do I feel confident? Where do I know I have skills, expertise, and passion that adds value in my organization or in my career? If you focus on these things, your confidence will be elevated, and the research shows that when you focus on your domain-specific expertise, your self-esteem in those areas goes up, and then your global self-esteem also goes up. So, I mean, this is a lot of social psychology talk for. Focusing on your superpowers before you go out on stage, remind yourself of what you’re good at. So I remember many years ago, for the first time, I was getting in front of a room with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people, and I really didn’t, it was an open q and a. I didn’t really know what was gonna happen, and I was nervous about the open q and a in particular. And I said to myself, Andrea. You have academic credentials in branding and marketing. You’ve spent your career in branding and marketing. You’ve coached all these people, you’ve done these workshops. You don’t know everything, but you are an expert in personal branding. So anything that they ask you, either you’re gonna have an answer for, or it’s gonna be something that you should learn anyway. Right? And then I went out there. So remind yourself of what your unique superpowers are. That’s a very powerful, uh, mindset. Okay. Moving on to the fourth way to establish leadership presence is exactly what I was just talking about. It’s developing your personal brand. So there are several things that you can do. If you follow me, you know that I’m talking about this all the time. Why? People tell me that this work is some of the most impactful work that they’ve done in elevating their confidence and also in developing their career. So, as I said at the beginning, your self-introduction is the most direct way that you have to reinforce your personal brand. I cannot overstate how important it is to be comfortable and confident in your self-introduction, focusing on your unique strengths, like I just said. My saying here is unique is better than better. Instead of trying to figure out what everyone in your organization or in an industry is expecting you to do or to call your strengths, ask yourself what your unique strengths are. Unique is better than better. The people around you who are knocking it out of the park. Undoubtedly are focused on their unique strengths. Okay? And then once you’ve identified what those unique strengths are, then you shift to communication. This is where in person and virtually, so like in your LinkedIn profile or whatever social media you’re on, in your email signature. When you are in virtual meetings like we’re in right now, so in person and virtually, and then. Explicitly, so using words and also implicitly how you show up the whatever you have in your background. It’s no mistake that I have the corner of my university degree over here. I have some plants. I have my color-coded bookshelf. I have more books here, not an accident. I’m trying to reinforce my brand. Okay, so consistently reinforcing the unique strengths. There’s so much more that I could share with you about personal branding, and I’m happy to answer more about that in the q and a, but that’s the fourth way to establish leadership presence. And now we’re on to the last one, which is demonstrating leadership. So I don’t mean exactly demonstrating leadership presence. There are slightly different things. I mean, demonstrating leadership, and I use these words because these are the words that my clients tell me. They meet me for a consult, and they say, Andrea. My boss says that technically I have the skills and I’m ready to be promoted and I need to start demonstrating leadership. Those are like the exact words that I hear a lot, and this could be like from a junior position to a middle position, middle to senior, it happens at all levels. I need to demonstrate leadership, and again, this could come across as like vague coded feedback. And many people also say, especially if they’re earlier in their career, they’re like, it’s impossible for me to demonstrate leadership because I’m not the boss of anyone, or I’m only the boss of four people, and they want me to demonstrate that I can manage a group of 25 or more. How am I supposed to do that? So here’s what I remind you. Is that there are many, many ways that you can demonstrate leadership. So the obvious one is leading people, and if you don’t have a team that’s reporting to you, you can still informally mentor other people and you could even formally coach people by setting up training programs or whatever. So, yes. People. Leadership is a big part of demonstrating leadership, but there’s also a couple of other things here. I have proactive leadership, strategic leadership, and thought leadership. So pro what is pro, what do I mean by proactive? Well, leaders lead, right? We’re not talking about following, we’re talking about leading. So when was the last time you had a proactive thought. I’m guessing it happens all the time. Shared it with the group and did something about it. I’m talking about being super proactive. Leaders lead. When you do that, you are demonstrating leadership, right? Strategic leadership. So I often think about, I used to work at Kraft Foods and Marketing, and I remember sometimes I’d be in these big meetings where we were brainstorming something or trying to decide on advertising campaign, which campaign we were gonna go with. Something like that. Somewhat things would, the conversation would go off track, and then after a certain amount of time, some very smart person who I would say was demonstrating leadership would raise their hand and say, we’re going off track. Let’s shift back to focusing on our strategy. Remember the brand strategy? Whatever it was, let’s focus on what our priorities are instead of getting distracted. And I remember whenever someone said something like that, I’d always think, gosh, that person is so smart. What a great leader. So when you’re presenting your thoughts and when you’re in discussions with others, when. Encouraging focus and being sort of principled, like what is the brand strategy? What have we decided the core principles or ideas are that we’re gonna be pursuing this year? Being grounded in your firm’s objectives, whatever they label them will help people, will encourage people to think of you as a leader, and then this one is often forgotten. Thought leadership. So, is there something that you have expertise on? It could be something technical, it could be a leadership style. It could be something that’s related to your industry or your function where you can share either in person, like verbally, or in writing. You could write papers, or you could post it on LinkedIn. Right? Thought leadership. Private and public. Thought leadership is definitely, I mean, that’s what it’s called. Thought. Leadership. The point here is demonstrating leadership beyond people. Leadership, proactively being strategic, and using thought leadership. Okay, so. Here is the list of five ways. I mean, there are many more, but these are five ways that I would say are very common gaps that people can get a lot of traction in your foundational communication skills. Like I said, communicating with precision, boosting your confidence, developing your brand, and demonstrating leadership  Choosing Your Focus: Don’t Try to Do All Five So this list may seem overwhelming. Again, what I encourage you to do is to identify which one or two, I think more than two is probably too many. Identify which one or two you wanna commit to yourself that you’re gonna focus on. I think of these in terms of what I call the leadership presence framework. So I shared a little bit of this with you in one of the earlier slides. Impact is at the top, right? This is your goal, and it again, it could be big or small. How are you gonna get there? By establishing credibility on the first two steps. This is what I notice when I’m coaching people. We work on their foundational communication skills, and they tell me, Andrea. By working on my self-introduction, by working on my listening, by working on my formal presentation skills, and on and on, I feel my confidence boosted, right? And then when their confidence is boosted, this feeling that they have other people tell them like, what’s going on with you? Like all of a sudden, you have this credible presence in meetings, and then that’s when they can make an impact. This is the framework that I encourage you to, you’re welcome to take a screenshot if you like. I encourage you to think about this. And then I, I have these kind of rectangle, whatever the, are those trapezoids, whatever the shape is called, I need to figure that out. You can put all sorts of communication skills there. And then the interesting part here, I think, is that you can build confidence by improving your foundational communication skills, but you can also do it. By overcoming imposter syndrome and also by using the confidence-boosting mindsets and tactics that I shared, and more. And then when that happens, your credibility’s boosted. And when your credibility gets boosted, then you can make an impact. But you can also, in a focused way, improve your credibility by thinking about the different ways of demonstrating leadership. By developing your personal brand and by doing all sorts of things. By the way, Sylvia Ann Hewlett’s definition, remember the third part? It was gravitas, communication, and how you show up. The, how you show up belongs right there in the credibility, right? Like, do you look like a leader? So this is a framework that you can probably tell by my tone of voice I am so excited about because I think it gives people a framework where I know it does, because I’ve, I’ve been using it in, in my private coaching and, uh, workshops. It gives people, I guess, like a framework for them to think about where there may be some gaps for them, where they can get some traction and start to develop this leadership presence. So I’m excited to share with you that next month, starting in the third week of April, I have an executive presence and personal branding masterclass. Now I’m calling it executive presence because that’s the term that people are mostly using, but in this masterclass, it’s six weeks long. We are gonna talk about the framework, how it’s leadership presence, and we’re gonna work our way up. Up the framework. So I’m just gonna share two slides with you about this, and then I’m gonna open it up for q and a. If you wanna learn more, if you go to TalkAboutTalk.com/april2026, there’s detailed information about what’s included and everything, but here’s what you get. There are six live coaching sessions on Wednesdays starting at noon. You also will be included in a private virtual group where only the masterclass folks will be there. The group will probably be. 10 to 15 folks or so. So it’s enough that there’s gonna be people there that you’re gonna learn from and make some fantastic connections. But there’s also a lot of individual customized one-on-one coaching. So we have this virtual private group. I’m in the group as well, and asking questions and answering questions there. So that’s on 24/7. For the six weeks, you also get a comprehensive workbook that basically becomes your playbook for developing. Leadership presence or executive presence, and your personal brand, and you also get access to a recently re-released and hugely improved online course on personal branding. So the content that I had from the course that I introduced four or five years ago was great, but the production value wasn’t, and we recently improved the production value of that. So that’s the program that I’m excited about.  Wrap-Up & Live Q&A: Applying Leadership Presence in the Real World But now I would love to answer any questions that you have. So, questions about executive presence, about leadership presence, about the five ways that I shared with you, shared that I encourage you to improve your leadership presence. Any questions about the masterclass as well? I’m happy to answer.  Christie: I can ask you a quick question, I guess.  AW: Hello? Is it Hey, Christie? C: It’s Christie. Yeah,  AW: I, how did I know that?  C: Because we’ve chatted briefly before.  AW: Yeah. Nice to see you, Christie.  C: Nice to see you. Are those situations where you’re doing a presentation, and you’re showing up in executive presence, do you have like awardrobe guide or do you have like go-to places or is it just like suit navy? Like how, how deep do you go on that? Because it does impact perception, right?  AW: It does. I’m glad you asked. Okay, so, oh gosh. There’s, there’s actually so many things that I can say. If one thing that a lot of people don’t know, if you are virtual, go with solids, not prints because they pixelate and they can be distracting. So that’s one thing. So I have a photographer that I absolutely love. So she’s taken all the photos that are in my social media posts and on my website, and I brought like my favorite turquoise and white hounds tooth blazer. And she was like. I was like, it’s my favorite. It’s my signature blazer. She said, no, no, it, it’s gonna be pixelated. That’s not what you want. She said, you can wear it when you meet someone for lunch or if you’re in front of a group, but don’t wear it for photos or anything that’s online. That’s a big one. The other thing that I can tell you is if you don’t have any idea what to wear, no. That blue is most people’s favorite color. Or how do you, how do you say that? Right? Blue is the color more than other that people favor. Right?  C: So that was a tongue twister. Yeah.  AW: Blues. Blue’s a good one. I would say that the other thing that comes up a lot is formality, and I just wrote a LinkedIn newsletter on this and I say, I encourage you to dress up. And by up I do not mean more formally. I mean, look at the people. Who are up from you, who are above you, who to whom you aspire to their position, how are they dressing? And you wanna be yourself, of course, but think about what they’re wearing. I’ve started to wear like a turquoise blazer with a t-shirt and jeans or pants with really cool Adidas running shoes. I have turquoise run. I have two pairs of turquoise running shoes. Um, so you can actually have fun, and I get comments on ’em like, oh my God, love your shoes. Right? So I’ve just started doing that. You don’t have to dress up formally, but dress up like the people that you admire. And then in terms of being in front of people, Christie, I would say the most important thing truly is that you feel comfortable and elevated. So comfortable. Like, you know, if you have a like I have a blazer, actually it’s on the couch that I’m pointing to it over there in my room. It’s like a bit tight in my shoulders. Like I would never wear it if I was standing in front of a room because if I, as soon as I point up, it’s gonna be like pulling. So you wanna be like comfortable, but you also wanna feel elevated. Like, if it’s a big deal, you wanna show up in a way that you feel good. The old saying, when you look good, you feel good. When you feel good, you look good, and then you do good. Like, that’s the idea. Do you have any other specific questions, Christie, about that?  C: I totally agree on the, the being comfortable. I do think it shows up, and I do agree because I’m an on the marketing side of things. So we do that from a brand and thought leadership perspective, so that’s great. And context matters, right? Like dressing up in who you’re in front of and who you’re talking to. I don’t know. I think it would also like, I like that. Like make it your own.  AW: Yeah.  Christie: Because if you’re not authentic, I guess that must show too, right?  AW: Yeah. Yeah. So I encourage you all to think about what your thing is for how you show up. So it could, for me, it’s a color, but that doesn’t mean it has to be a I, by the way, I met a woman at a conference and she, she had an orange jacket, an orange person. I said, oh, I love your orange. She said, I wear orange all the time. It’s like my go-to, no one wears orange, so I, it makes me memorable. And I was like, good for you. Uh, so it could be a color, it could be that you always wear a great scarf or you’re really into, even, even today, ties maybe not done up all the way. I, I know some guys that it could be. Your socks, or you could really be into shoes or may, a lot of people are really into running shoes. Right? And by the way, it can change over time too. It’s not like you’re, I say turquoise, so it has, for me, I always loved turquoise. I used to be a figure skater, and I, I, my dresses were always turquoise, everything. My houses turquoise. But for most people, it’ll evolve over time. Pick a thing. I remember, I used to be on a board of a hospital, and one of the guys on the board, he was known as having great hair and. Really crisp white shirts like, like they all looked brand new, right? That was like his thing. It said a lot. It said a lot. He was, he also worked in quality control, and I was like, okay, he’s got the hair, and he’s got the shirt. Right? So, is there a way you can reinforce your brand by how you show up in terms of how you dress? Try and think about what your thing might be. Your thing might even be your stature, right? Like I’m super, not me, but someone’s like super tall or I know some people that are. Are like five feet tall and they create a narrative around themselves as like, you’ll know me when you see me. I’m like a big ball of energy, but I’m tiny in stature. And I’ll be like, okay. And then it’s like, oh, there she is. Right? So that is included as part of how you show up. Anyone else have any questions they wanna ask me out loud?  Heather: Hi, I have a question. My name is Heather. I’m looking for the raise hand emoji, but I can’t find it on the screen. So my question is, once you have communicated and you have introduced yourself appropriately, what about the dead air? Like, the small talk? I mean, you mentioned at the beginning, like I, I’m not sure, maybe that’s another podcast or another area, but. What do you talk about in this day and age and in this situation where geopolitical, you know, fever is at an all-time high. What can you actually talk about? It used the weather used to be safe, and now with climate change, that’s not safe. AW: Yeah, that’s true.  H: What, what do you talk about?  AW: It’s such a cliche, isn’t it, to talk about the weather, but the weather is often newsworthy these days. I am not a big fan of these kind of rehearsed. Small talk prompts like, so what have you done lately that really lit up your world? Or you know, tell me about the best place you visited in the last year. I, I think asking those kind of random questions that you could ask anyone is, it seems a bit trite to me and, I know I appreciate it when people are doing it because they’re trying to fill the conversation void. But instead, I would look at the person and. Ask them something about the here and now. Like literally, if you’re at a conference and you meet someone, you could say, what’s your connection to the conference? Are you a speaker? Do you know the speaker? Are you a sponsor? What? Whatever. Right? So ask them about them. Ask them. So how did you get here? Did you take an Uber or did you drive? Right? So, asking the person about them, and then the conversation will flow people. Love talking. I know you all know this. People love talking about themselves. So instead of asking these kind of generic questions, I would think like, what is context and person relevant? And then ask ’em a question based on that, like here and now with this person. I hope that helps.  H: Yeah, thank you.  AW: Yeah. Who else has a question?  Lally: Andrea. Hi. I have a question.  AW: Hello.  L: I work with people all around the world, obviously mostly remotely. What considerations should I have or anyone in this obviously room have when it comes to establishing executive presence or leadership presence when you’re working with other cultures? AW: Yeah. This is something that I’ve started to think about more and more, and I’m gonna say this is not my expertise. I. Think it takes beautiful empathy and self-awareness to know what your culture, it could be like your country or even your corporate or your industry industries have culture, right? Companies have culture. Countries have cultures. Religions have cultures. So ask yourself, what cultures am I a part of, and what are we known for, right? So if you are from, I’m gonna say Texas versus. Montana, right? There are differences in how people communicate, and so just being aware of that, and you could even call it out. You could say, I know not everybody is, so I’m from Canada, and I’m a female, so people would assume that I am soft spoken. I’m not. So I could comment on that. I could make that like I’m probably not a typical female Canadian. I’m a little bit more outgoing. I’m definitely an extrovert. Right. And then you’re like, so you’re acknowledging differences. The big thing, Lally, that I would say is especially when you know there are distinctions in culture, again, whether it’s a corporate culture or a country culture, whatever it is, industry culture, being explicit about it and sharing that you are open and that you respect other perspectives can go a long way. And even when you do that. You can mess up. I have messed up, right? People will say, well, you’re teaching this and that. That doesn’t really work in my company culture, whatever. Or you said this, and that’s offensive. I was in New Mexico about a month and a half ago, and I whistled like I do this all the time when I’m in work. I did this when I was in the MBA program teaching in the MBA program, and when I do live workshops after people are in breakout groups, I will whistle, and I did it twice and the second time I did it, this guy in the front row. Had tears rolling down his face and he was like extremely sensitive to sound. And then I obviously, I saw what was going on, so I didn’t whistle anymore. And then I went up to him and he said, I know you didn’t do that on purpose, but please. And I said, I am so, so sorry. Like, I violated something for him that was like physically he couldn’t handle it. So it’s a little bit different from culture, but my point is, if you mess up address it and you don’t need to dwell on it, right? Like, you don’t need to call the person out. Don’t dwell on it, but apologize and make sure that you’re course correcting.  L: Thank you very much.  AW: Yeah,  L: This is very helpful.  AW: Michelle Brown asked for any more tips on how to effectively introduce yourself? So I’m gonna say. This three-point framework, which I, I believe is in the chat. It’s also if you go to the Talk About Talk podcast, whether you’re in, uh, YouTube or Spotify or Apple Podcasts, if you scroll down, I have rereleased the episode on how to introduce yourself. Many times it’s always a top episode for downloads. Learning this self-introduction framework is actually a life skill beyond the, let’s go around the table, or around the room or around the screen and introduce ourselves. You can use this framework anytime. Someone says, tell me about yourself. Imagine you walk into a job interview, and the first question is, maybe you’re just meeting with a, it’s a preliminary meeting with a recruiter. Tell me about yourself. You’re like, oh boy, like where do I start? And then just use the framework. Okay. You can also use this framework, present past, future in your LinkedIn profile, in your About section. Your about section should be written in first person. My name is Andrea. I, you don’t have to say your name, but you could say, I am an executive communication coach. I am a, whatever your title is at organization, where I, my leadership style is so you’re present, present, present, and then you can shift to the past. Before I held this position, I worked, whatever. You don’t wanna necessarily, this is a tip by the way. I would say it’s not a mistake, but it is a missed opportunity. When you’re talking about your past, be it in your about section or be it in your self-introduction, if even if someone asks you about your career journey, you don’t have to default to chronology. The number of times people say, when I say to them, I used to, in my podcast, I used to say, why don’t you, why don’t we start by you introducing yourself to the audience? And then they’d be like, well, I graduated from university in 1997, and then my first role. And I’m like, oh boy, here we go. Right? Like, sorry, I didn’t ask you for your Epic bio. So instead, think about. Two or three things that are relevant, right? So my passion and my expertise is this thing, and I used it when I had this role, and I had this role, and this is what I learned, and my leadership style is blah, blah, blah. And that leadership style was cultivated from years of doing this and this, right? So don’t necessarily default to chronology again. It’s not that it’s a mistake. Our brains, they kind of default to chronology right in your self-introduction. Instead, think about what are your unique strengths that you wanna share, and then tell the story about the past to reinforce those things. I hope that helps. Okay. Um, do, oh, Magdalena. Your question is so timely. She says, do these principles also apply outside of corporate IE if you are a business owner? So I used to talk about coaching executives. All the time, right? Yes. I’m an executive communication coach. I’ve recently started to change to say, professionals and leaders. You’ll probably hear those words coming outta my mouth more often. These skills apply whether you are an entrepreneur, whether you are working in healthcare like you’re a physician or a hospital administrator. These people that I coach, actually a lot of healthcare leaders, and they will say to me, I don’t consider myself an executive, but I see the stuff that you’re coaching people on, and that’s what I need to advance my career. So it’s, yes, the answer is yes, it is absolutely relevant, and it will help you Magdalena, establish credibility with your staff, with your partners that you have. I’m sure you have partners that you’re collaborating with, and with your clients or your customers as well. So the answer is a big fat yes on that one. Um, Cesar or Cesar, I’m not sure how you say your name. Leadership is influence. Nothing more, nothing less. John Maxwell. Love it. And to have the influence, you have to have credibility. So I’m just gonna say thank you so much for being so active in the chat and here with your questions. I’ve really enjoyed it, as you can probably tell. And if you wanna connect with me, my email, I’m gonna give you my email. It’s [email protected]. If you aren’t already connected with me on LinkedIn, please do. I’m on LinkedIn almost every day. I actually love it. I just went on vacation. I forced myself not to look at LinkedIn for a whole week. It was really hard. You can find me on LinkedIn again. You can find out more about what I do at TalkAboutTalk.com. And if you’re interested in the masterclass, it’s TalkAboutTalk.com/april2026. So I tried to make it as easy as possible for you. I would love to hear from you and you can connect with me in any of those ways, and I hope you have a great rest of your week. Bye. The post Executive Presence LIVE TRAINING: 5 Ways to Boost Your Leadership Presence” (ep. 210) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Ever led a meeting where no one seemed engaged? Don’t blame your agenda or your slides. Fix your opener! In this Talk About Talk episode, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki shares three specific techniques you can use to open any meeting in a way that gets people engaged immediately and keeps their attention the whole time. No extra storytelling required. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube TRANSCRIPTION Certainly not all meetings go as planned, do they? But you’ve probably led a few of these successful meetings, the kind where people are locked in, ideas are flying around. The kind of meeting where you walk out, impressed, feeling proud, and like you actually got something done. And then you try to run the exact same meeting two weeks later, and it’s crickets.  Here’s what I figured out. After years of leading live workshops and coaching executives on communication, the difference almost always traces back to the first one to two minutes of the meeting. It’s not the agenda, it’s not the slides, it’s the opening. So today. I’m gonna share with you three specific things that you can do to start off any meeting in a way that gets people engaged immediately and then keeps them that way. Let’s do this. Let’s Talk About Talk.  Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. I’m your executive communication coach. I coach ambitious professionals like you to communicate with confidence and credibility so that you can achieve your career goals. Please check out our website, TalkAboutTalk.com. You’ll find more information there about the topics that we cover and the different ways that you can learn from workshops, keynotes to masterclasses, to online courses, and more. There are plenty of free resources for you there, too, so check them all out. It’s at TalkAboutTalk.com. The First Two Minutes Set the Tone Here’s what most of the leaders that I coach tell me: they say, Andrea, I don’t know why some of my meetings just work, and others totally fall flat, and I can’t figure out how to make the good ones. Happen on purpose. Does this sound familiar? What’s interesting is that it’s almost never a content problem. The agenda is probably more than fine. The people in the room are capable, but something about the energy at the start of the meeting sets the whole tone. If you’ve lost people in the first couple of minutes, you are fighting an uphill battle until the end. Now, if you do an online search or ask AI, how should I start my meeting? You’ll see the same advice recycled everywhere. Tell a story. Get people emotionally invested. And here’s the thing, I’m not gonna tell you that stories don’t work because they certainly do. If you’ve ever tried to shoehorn a story into the top of a project status meeting and then watched people check their phones, then you know that a forced story can somehow be worse than no story at all. So instead, I wanna give you three things that actually work every time, regardless of the type of meeting, the size of the room, or whether you consider yourself a natural storyteller or not.  Tell Them Where the Bus Is Going Technique number one. Tell everyone where the bus is going. Here’s my question for you. Would you get on a bus if you had no idea where it was headed? Obviously not, right, but that’s exactly what many meeting leaders do. They ask people to get on the bus without telling them where it’s headed. They send a calendar invite with a vague title. They kick off with, okay, let’s get started, and then they wonder why people seem checked out. Your team is sitting there doing a mental calculation in the first 30 seconds. Is this worth my time? I mean, I have to sit here, but is it in my best interest to pay attention and to participate? Or maybe I should pretend to listen while I check my email? Is it worth my time and attention? And here’s the thing, if you don’t answer that question for them, their brain answers it for them, usually with probably not. The fix here is simple. Before you get into any content, spend 60 seconds telling them exactly why this meeting is worth their attention. Not just the topic, not even just the meeting objective. I’m talking about the stakes. What is at stake here? Why it matters to the people around the table. And by the way, if it doesn’t matter to them, why did you invite them? So, what decision are you gonna make in this meeting? What problem are you solving today that we haven’t been able to solve asynchronously? What will they walk out knowing or being able to do that they couldn’t do before the meeting started? You really need to clarify this. I actually use this exact tactic every time I record a podcast episode. Before I get into any content, I tell you the listener specifically what you’re going to get, what you’re gonna learn. So before your next meeting, write down this sentence. By the end of this meeting, you will? What? If you can’t fill in that blank, clearly your agenda needs work before your opening does. Okay. So that’s the first technique. Tell your meeting participants where the bus is headed and why they need to get on the bus.  Encourage the Nod: Create Instant Alignment The second technique is what I call encouraging the nod. I want you to think about the last time you were listening to someone. It could be a speaker, maybe it was a presentation, maybe a podcast like you’re listening to right now, and you found yourself nodding along. Like, yeah, that’s exactly right. That’s my experience, or that’s what I want. That nod is not accidental. The best communicators design for it. And you can do the same thing at the top of your meeting. Open your meeting with one or two statements that name your attendees, shared reality, something like, I know we’ve all been in meetings all week, and I wanna make sure this one earns a spot on your calendar. This is well worth your time, or you could be more specific. I heard from a few of you that this decision we need to make has been making you feel stuck, and that is exactly what we’re gonna fix here today. Suddenly, you see people nodding their heads, and when you name people’s actual experience, especially if you name a pain point, they lean in, and they nod. And a nodding person is an engaged person. The science backs this up. Research on rapport and engagement shows that physical agreement cues like nodding your head actually increase your sense of alignment with a speaker. It’s like our brains believe our bodies, just like our bodies believe our brains. As the meeting leader, you might also nod to yourself and encourage the meeting participants to mirror you. You’re not manipulating anyone here. You’re just meeting them where they already are and calling it out. So here’s what I encourage you to do. Write out two sentences for your next meeting opener that describe your participants’ feeling a pain point, an experience, or something that they’re seeking. Test it by yourself. Will this encourage nodding? If not, try again. If so, you nailed it. Okay. Now we’ve covered two techniques to maximize engagement in your meetings. One, tell them where the bus is headed. Two, encourage the nod. Get Them Talking Early—and Keep Them Engaged Now, for technique number three, get them talking early. I would say this is one of the most powerful of all the techniques. There is a huge opportunity for you here. Here’s the principle. The earlier someone participates in a meeting, the more engaged they will be for the entire meeting. And this isn’t just my intuition; this is backed by research on group dynamics. I like to think of it as creating momentum or encouraging momentum. When people contribute early, they develop a sense of ownership over what’s happening in the meeting. They’ve got momentum. Staying engaged stops feeling like a chore and starts to feel like following through on something that you’ve already started. And lemme tell you something, I’ve tested this purposefully in my workshops. Same material, similar audience. When I encourage engagement early, the workshop is always more successful in large part because people stay engaged. I encourage you to do the same thing in the meetings that you lead. Get as many people as possible talking or somehow engaging in the first five minutes. There are a few different ways that you can do this, depending on the context who’s sitting around the table, the number of meeting participants, and so on. You could kick off your meeting with a quick round of self-introductions, or you could ask everyone to answer a question with a hand gesture, like a thumbs up, a thumbs down, or a count. Like, tell me, is it one or two or five or 10? You get the idea. If you’re virtual, you could drop a one-question poll into the chat. I find that much easier than creating breakout groups, but often breakout groups work really well. It’s a great way to get people brainstorming and talking, whether you’re virtual or in person. You could run a short breakout where pairs have to answer a question like, what would make this meeting a success for you? Or what’s the most important thing that we need to consider to make the decision that we’re gonna make in this meeting? You get the idea. It does not need to be elaborate. It just needs to happen before people have had too long to settle into passive observer mode. Because here’s the thing, silence in a meeting is sticky. The momentum works both ways. Once you’ve been quiet for 10 minutes, asking them to speak up feels like a big, big ask. But if they’ve already participated and spoken, that barrier’s gone, momentum kicks in. So look at your next meeting agenda and identify the earliest possible opportunity where you can design a moment where participants actually participate. A poll, a share, a show of hands. Put it in the first five minutes. It’s not negotiable.  Your 3-Step Playbook for More Engaging Meetings So let’s bring this all together. Now, the next time you are leading a meeting, before you go into the room, make sure you’ve answered these three questions. 1. Tell Them Where the Bus Is Going Number one, have I told them where the bus is going? Do they know what we’re deciding, solving, or leaving with? 2. Encourage the Nod Two, have I encouraged a nod? Have I named their reality in a way that makes them feel seen even before we start?  3. Get Them Talking Early And number three, have I built in early participation? Is there a way to get voices in the room in the first five minutes, maybe even in the first two minutes?  These are three things together that make up probably an extra three minutes of preparation for you, but they’re gonna make a huge difference between a meeting where people are fully engaged versus one where they’re mentally halfway out the door, check in their email, essentially checked out. And look, none of this requires you to be a charismatic storyteller or even an extroverted entertainer. This is about being intentional and tactical. In the first few minutes of your meeting, you got this, okay? Before you go. Whatever podcast platform you’re on, please don’t forget to hit subscribe. This way, you won’t lose out on getting even more coaching on your communication skills from me. Thanks for listening and talk soon. The post How to Lead ENGAGING MEETINGS Where People Actually Pay Attention (ep. 209) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

“Do not mistake my KINDNESS for WEAKNESS.” What does it take to go from working front cash at McDonald’s to becoming its CEO? Michèle Boudria, Board Director and Former CEO of McDonald’s Canada, spent four decades figuring it out, and in this episode, she’s sharing everything. Michèle shares her insights, all in the name of creating “a virtuous cycle of high performance”: a relentless focus on feedback, next-level networking, curiosity, and an authentic, people-first leadership style. This one is full of honest, practical gold on building confidence, leading with impact, and getting the right people in your corner, and leading with impact. DOWNLOAD THE LEADERSHIP PRESENCE FRAMEWORK NOW at: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/leadershippresence Whether you’re early in your career or already in the C-suite, this one will make you think differently about the kind of leader you want to be. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube CONNECT WITH MICHÈLE  🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-boudria/ 🌐 Website: https://www.mcdonalds.com/ca/en-ca/newsroom/executive-team/Michele-Boudria.html MICHÈLE’S BOOK RECOMMENDATION  📖 Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance by Angela Duckworth → https://amzn.to/3ZAyjCg TRANSCRIPTION Michèle Boudria: Say, do not mistake my kindness for weakness, and that is really what I believe was that kind of unlock when I was 25 years old, was I realized that I could be kind and strong and confident and successful.  Andrea Wojnicki: Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. I am so excited about this episode. A couple of months ago, I was speaking at a conference, and I met one of the other conference speakers who you are about to meet.  From Front Counter to CEO: Lessons in Leadership and Communication Her name is Michèle Boudria, and she’s the recently retired CEO of McDonald’s Canada. She started four decades ago working front cash at McDonald’s and worked her way up to CEO. She has an incredible story to share with you, and I have to say, other than hearing her speak at this conference, I really didn’t know anything about Michèle, and the way our conversation unfolded will provide you with some gold in improving your communication skills in terms of career advice, and I would say even life advice. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk.  My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki and I’m your executive communication coach. Here at Talk About Talk, I focus on coaching ambitious professionals like you to improve your communication skills. So you can achieve all of your career goals. You can find more about what I do. If you go to talk about talk.com. On the website, you’ll find the archive of this podcast. You’ll find a free newsletter. You’ll find free resources. You’ll also find information about the private coaching, the masterclasses, and the corporate workshops and keynotes that I run. About the Guest: Michèle Boudria, Former CEO of McDonald’s Canada Okay. Let me introduce Michèle. Michèle Boudriaa’s journey with McDonald’s started when she was just 16 years old, working the counter of a restaurant in Elmer, Quebec. Four decades later, in 2025, she retired as president and CEO of McDonald’s Canada. Having led one of the country’s most iconic brands through remarkable growth and transformation, her journey included leadership roles across continents from frontline operations to the C-suite, where, as CEO, she oversaw more than 1400 restaurants, generating billions in annual sales.  She made making franchisees successful, relentless pursuit of a consistently great customer experience, and known for her operational expertise and ability to deliver results in mature markets. Michèle championed innovative pricing approaches, expanding digital channels that reached millions of more Canadians and data-driven insights to build success in the franchise network. Today, Michèle brings her decades of experience in growth strategy, operational excellence, franchise partnerships, and organizational transformation to her corporate board and community work. Here’s Michèle.  MB: At McDonald’s, it’s actually not that unique to have grown your entire career and started in our restaurants at the front cash or in the kitchen or drive through, or whatever it may be. We have quite a few colleagues around the world who have taken a similar path. You maybe don’t always make it to CEO, but you certainly take on some very important roles in the business. The Three Drivers of Success: Grit, Curiosity, and a Personal Board of Directors What I attribute my success to, it kind of boils down to three things for me. One is grit. I am a firm believer in this, the power of going after something and never stopping until you achieve it. Now, I certainly wasn’t thinking I’d be CEO when I started, but every task, every responsibility that I was given, I had to make sure that I was the best at it, that I achieved it to its full potential. So I’d say that would be one of the first things. Curiosity was probably the other one. I know that I probably drove a lot of my bosses crazy. I had millions of questions all the time if I didn’t quite know how to do something. But I thought, you know, that looked kind of interesting to be responsible for that. I’d ask a million questions to the point where they’d say, okay, you just take over and try it and see how well you do with it. And so curiosity to me was really, really important. I’d say the last was more around how do you surround yourself with the right people who are gonna give you. The good, the bad, and the ugly from a feedback perspective. And so I call that my personal board of directors. And I have over the years had some really, really, really close partners who, some are still really good friends today and continue to be part of my personal board of directors, but many have come and gone. But I’m really grateful that I had those types of people around me who gave it to me. Like I said, good, bad, or ugly.  AW: Oh, gosh. I have so many things I could say here. First of all, I love that you’re using the power of three. I mean, you could list one thing, or you could list 10 things, and you’re like, no, here are the three things. So grit, curiosity. People. So your personal board of directors. I talk a lot on the Talk About Talk podcast about the power of a growth mindset, which I think is related to your second point, well actually, maybe to all of it, but mostly to your second point and curiosity. I’d love to dig into the third point ’cause I get a lot of questions about networking and how to create a high-quality network around you, especially ambitious folks like, like yourself, like most people that are listening here, this idea of a personal board of directors comes up in conversation.  Can you talk a little bit about how that unfolded and if you have any advice for people on how to do the same? MB: Yeah, I think it, how it unfolded is I actually attended this workshop, you know, for women in leadership roles at McDonald’s, and this woman kind of introduced the concept to us, and I was really. The idea of building that, and it was literally. It’s not an interview process where I interviewed folks, but I put down the names that I thought would fit the various roles and the various type of feedback I was gonna receive or need. And to be perfectly frank, it has evolved over time because I might have been looking for different type of feedback, or if I didn’t interact with someone for a long time because our roles are so far apart, or our worlds were so far apart. At times, I would change up and get different folks to help out. You know, I firmly believe, you know, over the years I’ve had the pleasure of receiving this really rich feedback and sometimes it doesn’t feel like a pleasurable experience. But I have been really lucky and I’ll, I’ll never, you know, forget, I was really, really young. I was 25 years old. I was leading a team of about a hundred people and I. I had around me a lot of really strong businessmen, and the behavior and the leadership style was very much one of, you know, ruling with a bit of an iron fist. And so that’s what I thought was going to make me successful. And so, you know, at some point in, uh, my period as a, as leading this team. I received some pretty harsh feedback, you know, and people did not enjoy working with me. Well, the funny thing was, is I wasn’t really enjoying myself either, and so, you know, I really took that to heart. I had reflected on it quite a bit, and I decided that. You know, I was the kind of person who really cared about people. I was the kind of leader who, or wanted to be the kind of leader that was kind to people, motivated people, and got people excited about vision and strategy, and really wanting to give their best self. And I realized that doing that with an iron fist wasn’t working for me. And so I basically woke up one morning and said, that’s it. I am going to be who I am, the leader I want to be, and the style that I want. It works. And if it doesn’t, well maybe this just isn’t for me, and somewhere else it won’t work. And many, many, many years later, I look back, and I think, thank goodness that. That leader that I worked with at the time had the courage to gimme that really harsh feedback, and I applaud my team at that time for also being honest and speaking out. And by the way, they didn’t tell me because they were afraid of me. They told someone, and that was also very eye-opening. And so it has worked for me and I, you know, this is who I am, you know, I’m proud of it. It’s how I’ve led teams for all these years. And, um, you know, it’s the legacy that I’ve left at McDonald’s in my retirement is I’ve taught other leaders that you can be kind, you can, but still be confident and still be demanding and still achieve really great results. You just do it in a different way.  AW: Wow. Okay. I wanna get into leadership style, but before we go there, I wanna go back and kind of close the loop on the networking. And you used the term feedback a lot. So it sounds like you were looking for mentorship and you mentioned the word roles. So as you were creating what eventually became your personal board of directors, what was your, I guess like tactical strategy? What were you thinking like? Who do I need? Like what types of people, what role will they play?  MB: Yep. And I think your boss always plays a role, you know? And that obviously will change with whomever you’re reporting into. So that was clear. The boss was one of those folks. And I would always kind of, my strategy for each one of these roles was to say, listen, here’s what I’m really ambitious. I wanna achieve a lot, I have got lots of potential, and I wanna be able to pursue everything that I wanna pursue. I know I can’t unless I’m given really honest feedback. So this is me asking you and giving you permission to be very, very transparent and honest and timely with me when you see something. And so I’m not sure that I necessarily accepted it exceptionally well every single time. Yeah. But I would go home, reflect, sleep on it, come back in the morning, and think, you know what? You know, that was good feedback. I just need to accept it. I’ve asked for it, now I must deal with it. There’s some folks that will play more of an ally role, right? So that, that could be a peer, it could be someone who’s got some similar thoughts as mine. And so in a meeting, we might strategize a little bit so that we can deliver some strong messages together. I’d have obviously, uh, supporters and those supporters. They talk about you when you’re not in the room, and there are people who believe in what you believe in and wanna do, and they don’t necessarily have a direct connection to you, but they’re influential. And they’re in the room, and they’re making a difference for your career in these conversations. And then of course, mentors. Mentors have always been part of my, uh, board of directors. And sometimes I’ve had more than one. Sometimes I have one that’s specific to a topic because this person is an expert at this, and I really wanna draw out as much as I can from that person on this particular topic. AW: So when I read about kind of strategic networking, and by that I don’t mean being manipulative, I mean like, like thinking like you did about carefully in a disciplined way about the roles of different people in your network that are influencing your career. I hear about mentors, and also, there’s so much research about how a champion or an advocate can positively influence your career.  The one thing that I heard you say, in addition to these two roles, is the power of allies. And I think many of us don’t. I mean, maybe we naturally might side with certain people, feel a connection with people, but I think that’s a really nice ad, right? It’s not just mentors. And it’s not just the champions, it’s also allies.  MB: Yeah. And think about what that also does in the workforce. When you start to create an environment where you’re looking for allies in your workforce, the competitiveness is still there. A lot of these folks were my peers, but it becomes so healthy. Because you play, you’re each other’s ally, and so you want what’s best for both, for yourself and for that individual, and it really creates this really strong culture.  AW: I think that may be something that stands out about you compared to. I haven’t heard people articulate that so clearly. The other thing that I’m hearing quite clearly and consistently, Michèle, is your focus on feedback. And I talk about this all the time. I’ve received in the last, you know, six years as I’ve been doing talk about talk podcasts and workshops. Twice, I’ve received emails from people saying, Andrea, are you open to hearing feedback? And when I get that email, so I usually do say, you know, please run a survey after, please share the results with me. You know, I say feedback is a gift, and I really do mean that. But every now and then someone will say, are you open to feedback? And then I’m like, this is not gonna be fun. But yes. And it’s like we have this human to look for flattery and compliments, and when it is constructive criticism, it’s really, really hard. Do you have any advice for people on how to get over that? It’s not easy.  MB: Yeah. You know, interestingly enough, I think it’s in our human instincts is to focus on what you know along with the direct feedback that’s not so maybe so, you know, pleasant and positive. You generally get some constructive feedback and for some reason all we focus on is that piece. And so, you know, I always tell folks, listen to it, absorb it. Think about what one or two things you might do differently moving forward, and then put it on a shelf. Because you can’t constantly be thinking about that every time you’re talking, acting, moving, writing an email, because then it consumes you. And you’ll also then don’t even recognize all the great things that people have said about you. And so I love the fact that we run a lot of assessments on people in psychoanalyze leaders and so on and so forth. But with that is some very, very rich feedback. And you can get really caught up on one element of it and lose sight of all of the great things that have also been said. So one or two quick things you’re gonna change, put it on the shelf. Read the good stuff, move on.  AW: Okay. And the good stuff may inform something that I talk about a lot, which is your personal brand or your professional identity, right? Those are the things that you wanna reinforce, that you wanna be known for, and that ultimately become part of your leadership style. And I think the span of your career. I covered a massive paradigm shift. I always think of the Jack Welch GE era, where it was like authoritarian leadership, and here’s how you do the command and control style to improve productivity and results and blah, blah, blah. And it was like this, I guess, assumption that people had that if you were friendly, or god forbid, maternal. Your interactions at work that you were weak and you were not results-oriented. And there, there’s definitely been a shift where the people are now criticizing that authoritarian paradigm and focused on things like psychological safety, taking risks, and being authentic. Can you talk a little bit about your experience with, do you, first of all, do you agree that has been a paradigm shift and your observations there? Kindness Is Not Weakness: The Evolution of Modern Leadership MB: Yeah, it’s definitely a paradigm shift because it’s now an expectation of the workforce. If you do not shift, you’re going to struggle to build the workforce you want or the best of the best in the workforce to have them come and work for you. I live by this statement. People say it describes me to as I say, do not mistake my kindness for weakness. AW: Oh, I love that. So good.  MB: And that is really what I believe was that kind of unlock when I was 25 years old, was I realized that I could be kind and strong and confident and successful. And so there are a couple of things I think, you know, from a leadership style, being confident but not arrogant is probably one of the most important steps. Now, there is an expectation now of our workforce. We show up in a way that is absolutely confident. People won’t follow you if you’re not leading with confidence, but they certainly will not follow you if you lead with arrogance. It’s just not something the workforce today will accept. I also say get spend time, invest time in getting to know the people who work for you that matters more today than it ever has.  People want you want to know about their families, their schools, their hobbies, their pets, their likes, their dislikes, their career ambition. Once we establish that kind of relationship and they’ve seen how much you’ve invested in them and how much time you’ve spent just getting to know them and not necessarily talking about the business, then the world is your oyster. You can ask for just about anything, and that’s where I believe this like virtuous cycle of high performance comes into play, where when I have seen myself create a relationship with someone. That is so deeply rooted in me getting to know them and spending that time with them. I can ask them just about anything, and the last thing they wanna do is disappoint me, and so they go above and beyond anything I would’ve ever expected. Then I get to recognize them and reward them for incredible work. And then together we set new heights as far as what we can achieve. And then it becomes this like incredible flywheel where you’re actually getting better and better results. And then other people wanna join this because they see the success, they see the rewards, they see the appreciation. And it creates this culture of, of high performance that I, you know, have prided myself over the last, you know, several decades of making sure that I created and I go to work. This is one of the easiest jobs ever because people just wanna do more, and they just wanna do well. You know, people always said to me, Michèle, we just never wanna disappoint you, but we know if we do, it’s not the end of the world. We’ll fix it, and we’ll move on. And that, to me, the epitome of leadership, I think. And we achieved great things together, and I was really proud of the team. But along with that comes a lot of honesty. Some real deep-rooted conversations around feedback, and because you have such strong relationship, you set it up, and you say, listen, I want you to be successful and to be successful. I think you’re gonna need me to be really transparent with you. When I see some an opportunity, do you give me permission to do that? And then the answer is always yes, because they know it’s gonna come from a place of kindness, but not a place of weakness.  AW: So as you’re sharing all of these things that you thought about, that you think about, it’s becoming pretty apparent how your success happened. I wanted to double down on two of the things that you said. One was it’s confidence is a requirement. I, I say that too. I was just teaching a group about this last night, and we were talking about how. If you’re not confident, you can’t establish credibility, and people only follow people that are confident and credible, but not arrogant. So specifically, how do you, how did you prevent yourself from slipping into that arrogant territory? And if you notice someone who was reporting to you who might be, you know, they start off as a little bit more anxious, and then they build up their confidence, and then it just keeps going into arrogant territory. What would you tell them, or what, what were you thinking about to prevent that from happening?  MB: Yeah, I’d say sometimes you, um. It happens, and you don’t even notice it, right? So that’s why you’ve gotta have those great people on your board of directors who kind of remind you that it’s happening. But I also, I think if you surround yourself with the right people, I’m a firm believer that my job as a CEO of McDonald’s Canada was to have smarter people than me at the table surrounding me. And when you actually firmly believe that you don’t just say it, but you actually believe it, it’s really easy to be confident because you know you’ve put the right people at the table, but it’s really hard to be arrogant because most of them are smarter than you. And so my job is never to be the most, you know, knowledgeable financier or real estate rep, or that’s why you surround yourself with the best of the best in the industries, you know, and the functions that you require to run your business. The art of being a really strong leader is the ability to be able to do that, and people will only work for you if you are confident but not arrogant. And it’s easy not to be arrogant when you know that there are people who know more than you do around the table about their particular piece.  AW: It goes back to what you said about curiosity, and also if you’re genuinely curious.  Then you’re not arrogant, right? Like arrogant. People think they know everything.  MB: One of the things that I realized I did all the time, and it’s funny, I’ve never even thought of it, but the team would say to me after, would say, it’s so helpful when you do that because it gives permission. I, you know, as a CEO, of course, I had lots of opinions, and I had lots of thoughts on how we might do things and do better, and so on and so forth. And when I would make a statement, and I would realize that I was making a statement that could carry a lot of weight and that people might just take and run with when I was done, I’d always say, does that make sense or is anybody thinking about it differently?  AW: Wow. Yeah.  MB: And so you. Because you, you, what you need to realize very quickly is that, you know, when you take on this kind of a role, any leadership role where you have a team of people who are looking to you to set direction, vision, strategy, what you say carries a lot of weight, but you may not always have it right? And so you have to create this environment where you might make a type a statement where you might wanna create a certain expectation, but you gotta validate that it’s right. And so, you know, what it did is it just created this environment where I could push the envelope really, really far, sometimes, often, but the team would then, you know, say, well, what, you know, we need to think about this, and we might wanna reflect on that. And then we would probably get to the sweet spot of where that should be. But they were given permission, and there was an environment where they were expected to provide a point of view on my point of view. And that takes time, trust, and patience because it’s not automatic. Because you ask the question that they’re actually gonna say it. AW: Yeah. Yeah. And you’re, it sounds as if you have exceptional self-awareness. Michèle, you’re conscious of the fact that. How you respond to their questions. Maybe the risky comments that the self-perceived risky comments that they’re making when they’re questioning something that you’re recommending or suggesting your response to those things has significant impact on the moment, but really also on the culture. Right?  MB: Yeah. And I didn’t always get it right, you know, the importance of, of self-awareness and transparency. Yeah. Um, but again, when I didn’t. Most of the time, I knew I didn’t. And you know, I would take a deep breath, walk around the building, come back, and say, all right, let’s chat about it. Where did I go wrong there? And, find the person on the team who. Was in that place of trust and comfort to be able to say, yeah, maybe that wasn’t, you know, the way we shoulda handled it, or whatever it may be, but acknowledge it and correct it, and all that does is goes back to, it builds that credibility because you’re confident enough to come back and acknowledge it and get it right. AW: And encouraging them to do the same thing.  MB: And role modeling that is so critically important.  AW: Oh, Michèle, it sounds like such an incredible, such an inspiring, uh, work environment that you cultivated. You mentioned the word transparency, and previously you were talking about, you know, asking people about their family, schools, and so on. I’m wondering if you’ve thought at all strategically about authenticity versus transparency, and there’s this kind of adage that happened I guess, after COVID, during COVID, people were saying, I should be bringing my whole self to work, or wish we should be able to bring our whole selves to work. Are you bringing your whole self to work, and how that relates to transparency and authenticity in your thoughts on that? MB: I believe it’s important you create an environment where people can do that. People are at their best when they can be themselves. And I reflect back on that 25-year-old who said, I’m not happy being that Iron Fist leader either. So why don’t I just be who I am? And if it’s good enough, then it’ll be successful. And if it’s not, then maybe this isn’t for me. And I firmly believe in constantly creating this environment where people can just be who they are. I’ve seen people kind of come out of their shell and just do amazing things for the business and for their career. When they’re led by someone who they feel really comfortable with and know that they won’t be judged. Now, that doesn’t mean I always agree with everybody’s points of view. It doesn’t mean that, you know, we didn’t have debates and disagreements and really strong discussions, but done in a respectful manner. And at the end of the day, there are times where I had to make decisions that weren’t popular. Not everybody agreed with it, but if you take the time to listen to everybody’s points of view, you demonstrate some empathy. You sit in their seat for a minute, and you say, what might be their reaction to this? And if you’re able to look them straight in the eye and say, listen, I thought about what this might feel like for you or for, you know, a group of folks. And here, let me explain why I’m thinking that this is still the right decision for the business. I wasn’t. I mean, we were running a business, right? And so it still needed to be successful, and to be successful, sometimes you have to make really hard decisions. But if people knew that in the end they were allowed to express themselves, their points of view, and show up in their authentic way, whether they got their way or not mattered a heck of a lot less because at least they knew. I respected them enough to be able to hear them out, get their point of view, live in their shoes for a minute prior to making a decision. And then going forward and making the decision that was required for the business.  AW: Yeah. It sounds like you’re so skillfully walking that fine line between like personal but not personal. I mean, business is business. The business is about working with people and back to like getting to know your family, the schools, the community that you live in, what you care about, and knowing that I respect your personal advice, the advice from you about what the, whatever the business decision is. But then ultimately we’re, the decision that Michèle is making is to whatever, achieve the business goals. Preparing for the Next Chapter: From CEO to Board Leadership So, wow. I wish I’d been a fly on the wall. I wish I’d been an employee back then. So I, I wanna shift gears with all of our, uh, careers are in transition, but you’re currently undergoing experiencing a transition where you retired from this position of CEO of McDonald’s Canada, and now you are doing corporate board work. And so I’m wondering if you have any advice for the listeners about how to narrate in an effective way. Career transitions. I have a feeling that this is something that you would be very conscious of.  MB: Yeah. Get help. There are actually professionals out there who do this really, really well, and so I have, I’ve always had a professional coach, and she is, you know, one of my. Members of my personal board of directors for many years now, and she’s probably my most honest, um, you know, feedback provider that I have. And she’s amazing. And, obviously, you know, she works with a lot of companies and CEOs and boards, and so obviously she has real-life examples, example and lots of advice to offer. So she’s, you know, really important. But I’ve also worked with someone else who’s just helped me think differently about my resume, my bio, how I show up on LinkedIn, all of those things. There are professionals out there who can help you transition because when you’re in a role of CEO or any leadership role, you’re busy. You don’t necessarily have a whole lot of time to think about what does this next chapter looks like. You get in that next chapter, and that’s when you can dedicate some time for that. And as a CEO, I wasn’t on a whole lot of boards, um, because I was so focused on our business. So I had a couple of boards that I sat on, but to be perfectly honest with you. Now is a whole other world and something that I want to jump into. And they have been extremely helpful. And just last week I was talking to a young man who wanted some advice on how does he prepare for this? He’s new in business, but he wanted, and you know, and I said, listen, there are classes, there are courses you know that you should be looking into, meet with people who have successfully joined. Boards, like the ones that you’re interested in in the future, and set yourself up. And some of it, you talked about networking earlier, a lot of it is around networking as well. And you know, in some ways I wish I’d invested a little bit more in networking and in other ways I’m just being smart about how do I leverage the network that I have today to continue to build on it. And you know, good things will come, I have no doubt. But yeah, it takes a lot of preparation, and again, I just surrounded myself with people who knew how to do it really well. And took the time to listen to their advice.  AW: I have to say, Michèle, these board positions that you’re gonna land or that you have landed are exceptionally fortunate. I can imagine you sitting around the boardroom table asking the really important questions and even kind of helping. Optimize the culture, I guess, of the board and of the organization. So I can’t wait to see what you do next.  Rapid-Fire Questions But now’s the time for me to ask you the three rapid-fire questions. Are you ready? MB: I am  AW: Question number one. Actually, I don’t know the answer to this one. I’ve now met you virtually and in person, but I, I’m not sure, are you an introvert or an extrovert?  MB: So it’s changed I think over the years, and so I think professionally I’m more extroverted. But not necessarily by choice. Um, my role had, you know, me kind of in the spotlight all the time, and so one that I just embraced and worked on, but what it did is it led me to become very introverted in my personal life. Um, needed a lot of time to. Quiet time, time to recharge. And so the folks around me professionally would never say I’m introverted, but the people in my life personally would tell you absolutely. There’s definitely some introversion there for sure.  AW: I appreciate how you are distinguishing between where I get my energy clearly is solitude, recharging through solitude, right? But that doesn’t mean on the other hand, that you don’t have an energetic presence. Okay. Question number two, what are your communication pet peeves?  MB: I think people giving me the answer they think I want to get rather than what they’re really, really saying or thinking. And to me, if I’m asking you, it’s because I really wanna know what your thoughts are, but I also recognize that it takes time. You have to be patient. Create that environment where people feel that way. But if I’m asking, it’s wanna. I can kind of see through that when I’m talking with people, and I sometimes will just say, stop. I know you’re thinking differently. I don’t wanna hear what you think I wanna hear. I wanna hear what you really think. AW: So good. So good. Okay, last question. Is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending lately to people in your network?  MB: I mean, talk, talk, podcast, of course.  AW:  Other than Talk About Talk. Okay.  MB: Yeah. You know what, I started with this. If you’ve ever never read the book Grit, uh, from Angela Duckworth, I would recommend it. I love the idea that grit is twice the indicator of success and intelligence. And you know, this idea also kind of goes. Well, with, um, you know, you don’t have to be the smartest person in the room. You just have to bring the smartest people around you to be successful. And this concept of, you know, grittiness and really working, you know, until you try and try and try again until you, you’re successful, to me is, has really been an unlock and realizing that. It was okay not to be that smartest person in the room. It just needed to be really gritty, and that I think, has attributed a lot to my success. I had the opportunity to meet Angela Duckworth and listen to her speak about her work and ever since then, I’ve been fascinated by this book, and I go back to it. Sometimes I’ll go back, and I’ll read a chapter because I don’t quite remember exactly everything in the chapter, but I know there’s a nugget in there that I think I can use. And I think everybody that I meet ends up buying the book because I’m like the, probably her number one cheerleader for this book.I just love the book itself, but the idea behind it.  AW: So I have to say, Michèle, that you come across as someone who truly exemplifies. The grittiness and the growth mindset that she advocates is very evident and it’s very impressive and inspiring. I wanna say thank you for joining us and is there anything else you wanna share with the talk about, talk listeners about optimizing their communication, their leadership style as they navigate their own careers? MB: I think the last thing I would just say is this world is rapidly changing, the workforce is rapidly changing and assessing and adapting your leadership style is going to be more important than ever. Now, that doesn’t mean it’s bad. It doesn’t mean that it’s, you know, you’ve done something wrong. It’s simply taking the time to assess it, and you’re likely not gonna need an overhaul. You’re probably just going to need some tweaks.  But the smart and incredibly successful leaders out there do that regularly. They surround themselves with people who give them the honest feedback in that allows them to identify where those opportunities are. So if you are not doing that exercise of reflecting on how do I need to adapt, I would suggest that that’s something you really incorporate into your annual thinking and planning and, and strategizing. Uh, every year, at the very least, give us some thought, see if there’s anything but the speed at which things are happening in our world. You’re gonna have to be a very different leader than the folks who have led in the last 40 years, myself included.  AW: Wonderful advice. Michèle. Thank you so much for so generously sharing your suggestions and your experience with us.Thank you.  MB: Pleasure. Thank you. AW: Isn’t Michèle fantastic? I enjoyed that conversation even more than I anticipated. And like I said at the beginning, I didn’t really know Michèle, and I didn’t know where the conversation was gonna go, but I know she provided us with so much gold.  Key Takeaways from My Conversation with Michèle So here are three things before we go that I wanna reinforce in terms of my learnings and things that I hope you’ll remember from this episode. They are feedback, the power of your network, and some networking suggestions. And the third thing is about your leadership style.  1. Seek Feedback—and Act on It So in terms of feedback, this I would say really was the main theme, at least for me from this conversation. Michèle provided us with a fantastic example of how proactively seeking feedback and then being self-reflective on that feedback can really catalyze and advance your career. I don’t think I could put that anymore clearly. And Michèle’s example, as I say, is the epitome of this. So instead of avoiding feedback, seek it out proactively and act on it. That’s number one.  2. Build a Strategic Network (Your Personal Board of Directors) Number two is about strategic networking. Michèle spoke at the beginning about creating a personal board of directors around her, and I’ve talked about this in past episodes and with other guests about the research and the power of having mentors. Also, sponsors, champions, or advocates. Michèle encourages us to also add a third role to our network, and that’s allies. And I know many of us do this sort of serendipitously, maybe less strategically. We make friends with people at work, but she advocates that we not only have these champions or advocates and these mentors, but also peers and allies. We can count on in our network to help us grow and improve. Back to the feedback theme, right?  3. Lead with Kindness and Confidence The third thing that I wanna reinforce with you is about leadership style. So a couple things here. Michèle described explicitly how there’s been this paradigm shift from the authoritarian dictator type leader to a more authentic and open style of leadership. She also talked about being true to your own style. She mentioned a couple of times that once she realized what her true leadership style was, she decided to embody it. Whether the organization respected that or not, and fortunately, it did. I would say, fortunately for her and fortunately for McDonald’s Canada, I loved her line. Do not mistake my kindness for weakness. Yes, you can lead a high-performing organization. You can be productive. You can meet all of your business goals. You can be strong, but also be kind. Make no mistake, I love this leadership style, and I’m optimistic that the world is evolving to a place where this kind of leader is highly valued. That’s it for this episode of the Talk About Talk podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. I would love to hear your comments. I’d also love it if you subscribe, whatever platform you’re on, whether it’s Spotify, Apple or YouTube. Wherever you’re listening, just hit subscribe and you won’t miss any episodes. Thanks for listening and talk soon. The post What 40 Years at McDonald’s Taught One CEO About COMMUNICATION and LEADERSHIP – with Michèle Boudria (ep. 208) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

“You need to demonstrate executive presence.” What exactly does that actually mean? And why does it feel like code for “be someone you’re not”? In this Talk About Talk episode, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki shares why the term “executive presence” isn’t ideal, and how “leadership presence” should replace it. She also shares a “Leadership Presence Hierarchy” framework that highlights what specific skills you need to work on. DOWNLOAD THE FRAMEWORK NOW at:  https://www.talkabouttalk.com/leadershippresence Check out the four-tier” Leadership Presence Hierarchy” that takes you from foundational communication skills all the way to having real impact. This isn’t about conforming to some 1980s CEO stereotype. It’s about showing up authentically while commanding respect, building credibility, and getting heard. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube TRANSCRIPTION The folks that are getting promoted to the C-Suite have executive presence, but the ones who stall out do not. Since I coach senior executives and aspiring senior executives, I get asked about this topic of executive presence all the time. In fact, I’d say that over the last year I’ve noticed a real uptick in clients seeking guidance on how to establish the all elusive executive presence.  Sometimes they’re being proactive, but sometimes this high potential leader is sent to me by their HR manager, and they’ll tell me something like, this person has all the check marks for the C-suite, but they really need to demonstrate executive presence. And by the way, I always tell the person, this is very good news. Your employer thinks you have what it takes. They’re investing in you. Anyway, as I said, I’ve definitely noticed an uptick in requests for coaching on executive presence, but I have to tell you something else. I’ve also noticed increased pushback associated with this term. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk  In this episode, I’m gonna share with you some important background on executive presence, why it’s so important, why I suggest we relabel it to something else, and a list of specific skills that you need to acquire. You can think of this as a checklist, your executive presence, or leadership presence playbook. Are you ready? Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, and I’m your executive communication coach. Please just call me Andrea. I’m here to help you improve your communication skills so that you can achieve your career goals. In addition to this biweekly talk about talk podcast, you can learn more from me through the workshops, keynotes, and master classes that I run plus, private coaching and a growing library of on-demand online courses.  You can learn more about everything we offer at Talk About Talk by checking out the website at TalkAboutTalk.com. You can even set up a consult with me there. Check it out. TalkAboutTalk.com.  Executive Presence: Why It Matters—and Why It’s Controversial Okay, let’s talk Executive presence. Executive presence is one of those things that might be tough to define, but you know it when you see it. Am I right? The professionals that I coach tell me that it’s all about confidence, feeling, and, more importantly, being perceived as confident, but of course not. Arrogant and executive presence is necessary to achieving leadership status. This is what I hear from the HR managers, right?  The folks that are getting promoted to the C-Suite have executive presence, but the ones who stall out do not. That is why people are seeking coaching in this area. Well, here’s the good news. Executive presence can be learned. I’ve worked with senior folks with exactly this quandary. They have all the technical skills and people like them. They’re likable. People are rooting for them, but they’re missing this magical executive presence. I remember coaching a senior partner at a consulting firm. Who had this exact experience, and after I worked with him for about two months, he started to feel more confident, but also, at least as importantly, he started getting comments from others about his improved confidence and his presence. So what exactly is this executive presence? One of the most common definitions that you’ll hear is from an author named Sylvia Ann Hewlett. She says executive presence is a set of qualities that enable leaders to inspire confidence in others. In her research, Sylvia highlights. Three, of course, three ingredients that comprise executive presence. One, communication skills as in public speaking, body language, and so on. Two, gravitas as in confidence, integrity, unflappability, and three, appearance. In other words, how you show up. When I read this list of three ingredients, I thought. Oh good. This is all about communication. Of course, there’s communication skills, she says, but also gravitas and appearance. And to me, all of these things are communication. And the good news again is that communication can be learned. So we can think of executive presence in terms of Hewlett’s definition. Executive presence is a set of qualities that enable leaders to inspire confidence in others. And you can also think of it specifically in terms of these three ingredients. She highlights these ingredients as communication skills, gravitas, and appearance. Now, before I go on, I also wanna clarify what executive presence is not. First of all, executive presence is not a title. In other words, you don’t need to be in the C-suite to have executive presence, and actually, not everyone in the C-Suite has executive presence. Of course, if you do have it, you’re more likely to ascend the corporate ladder. Executive presence does not equal title or status. Executive presence is also different from expertise. I mean expertise as in technical skills. Of course, expertise is also something that we need to succeed in our careers, but executive presence is very different from expertise. What I often observe is that people who come to me for coaching, they often have technical expertise and they’re looking to brush up on their executive presence. So executive presence is not the same as status. It’s not the same as expertise. It’s also different from charisma. Charisma is more about energy and emotional impact. Charisma can help boost your executive presence, but I would say executive presence is broader. Charisma is about attracting and energizing people. It’s often associated with extrovertedness. On the other hand, executive presence is about substance plus delivery, and you definitely do not need to be an expert to have executive presence. That said, I’ve noticed that many people conflate executive presence with extroversion. This is just wrong, and this isn’t the only issue that I’ve been hearing and reading about executive presence. It wouldn’t be an exaggeration to say that the term executive presence turns many people off altogether. I have a masterclass that I run a few times a year, focused on. You guessed it. Developing executive presence and your personal brand, and more than a few times, I’ve had to carefully define with people exactly what I mean and what I don’t mean when I say executive presence. Generally, it seems that some people are legitimately turned off when they’re told that they need to develop executive presence because it often feels like vague-coded feedback that’s used to block their promotion.  And this happens especially to women and racialized people more than once. I’ve heard people say that when they hear the term executive presence, an image of General Electrics or GEs former CEO, Jack Welch comes to mind, along with what they see as his direct, non-inclusive, formal, authoritarian leadership style nowadays. Our celebrated leaders are authentic. Yes, I said it. The A word and inclusive, I guess that’s the I word. Importantly, today’s celebrated leaders are listening to learn, not narrow-minded and authoritarian.  From Executive Presence to Leadership Presence For all of these reasons, I suggest that we change the term from executive presence to leadership presence. Executive presence is just too loaded. Leadership presence is something that many of us aspire to. This term, leadership presence might just be more ethical and better for business outcomes. It can also be used in context outside of the executive boardroom, like with the other professionals. I coach leaders in medicine, leaders in law, and so on. They don’t call themselves executives, but they do aspire to leadership. So what do you think? Let’s call it leadership presence.  The Leadership Presence Hierarchy: From Skills to Impact Now, what I’d love to share with you is my model for developing leadership presence. This model is based on my reading of books and articles on yes, executive presence, plus my observations from coaching hundreds of professionals, thousands. If you include the corporate workshops that I run, it’s a framework that I illustrate as a hierarchy. If you’re watching on YouTube, you can see this hierarchy on the screen. If you’re listening, you can easily download the framework. If you go to talk about talk.com/leadership presence, that’s talk about talk.com/leadership presence. Yes, I made it easy for you, of course. So whether you’re looking at the framework right now or not, I can describe it to you.  Level 1: Foundational Communication Skills At the bottom of the hierarchy, we have foundational communication skills, things like body language, storytelling, listening, communicating with precision, vocal presence. I call these foundational communication skills, not because they’re easy. In fact, folks with true leadership presence often go back and revisit these foundational communication skills to elevate their leadership presence, but I call them foundational because they’re at the bottom. And here’s what my clients tell me. When we’ve been doing some work to elevate or improve their foundational communication skills, they start to feel confident and they’re often told that they appear more confident by others.  Level 2: Building Confidence (Internal and External) So this makes up the next level of the hierarchy of confidence. Again, this is both confidence in terms of how you feel and how you’re perceived. The interesting thing about this level is that there’s a couple different ways of elevating your confidence. As I said, you can do so by improving your communication skills. You can also directly improve your confidence by doing things like learning about imposter syndrome and how to overcome it. You can also learn mindsets and tactics that are specifically focused on elevating your confidence. Things like slow deep breathing.  Things like expansive body language and things like positive self-talk. These are all tactics that can directly boost your confidence. So here, we’re ready for the next step. We’ve started with our foundational communication skills. We’ve experienced improved confidence.  Level 3: Establishing Credibility Once we are feeling more confident and we’re being perceived as more confident, this is when we start to establish credibility. Again, there are things that we can do to directly boost our credibility. I’ve got three ideas. One, focus on developing your personal brand. Two, focus on demonstrating leadership, and three, focus on your influence. So let me go into a little bit of detail about each of these.  Credibility Driver #1: Define and Reinforce Your Unique Personal Brand First focusing on establishing your unique personal brand. Notice the term unique. As I said at the beginning, one of the criticisms of this executive presence notion is that some people believe it means conforming to a stereotype of what a leader should look like. Personal branding. Is the opposite of this. The way I coach personal branding. It’s about identifying, articulating, and reinforcing your unique brand, your unique strengths and passions. So this is the opposite of conforming. It’s about standing out as your true, unique, and best self. So that’s one way that you can really help establish your credibility.  Credibility Driver #2: Demonstrate Leadership (Proactive, Strategic, Thought) The second is by demonstrating leadership. When I coach people on demonstrating leadership, I often share with them that the obvious way to demonstrate leadership is to be a good people leader, right? That’s where our mind goes to when we hear the word leader. But don’t forget, there are many, many ways to demonstrate leadership. Consider, for example, just being proactive, being the person who comes up with innovative and creative ideas. If you think about it, leaders lead; they are out front. Proactive. So be proactive, and people will see you as a leader. There’s also strategic leadership. The leaders that we admire are strategic thinkers, right? They’re identifying and then reinforcing strategy. They think strategically. So there’s people leadership, there’s proactive leadership, there’s strategic leadership, and there’s also thought leadership. What area do you have expertise in where you wanna share your thought leadership? Privately inside your organization and even publicly on social media and beyond. So thought leadership. And then the last thing that I share with my clients who I’m working with on demonstrating leadership is simply using the word lead. Use the word lead led leadership leader, especially when you’re referencing yourself, and people will start to think of you as a leader as well. Okay, so we’re still at this, almost at the top of our leadership presence hierarchy. We’re at the credibility stage, and we’ve talked about developing your personal brand. We’ve talked about demonstrating leadership.  Credibility Driver #3: Strengthen Your Influence The third way that you can reinforce your credibility is by focusing on influence. This is about negotiating and making an impact. This is about being heard. If you think about it. This is all about effective communication skills and confidence, too. Do you see how all the layers reinforce themselves? So now you see how this leadership presence hierarchy works. Again, we start with the foundational communication skills, and as we improve our communication skills, we start to feel and be perceived as more confident. There are things we can do to further. Improve our confidence, and that’s when we start to establish credibility again. There are ways that we can reinforce our credibility, personal brand, demonstrating leadership, and working on our influence.  The Apex: Creating Real Impact Once we’ve done all of these things, we reach the apex or the top of the leadership presence hierarchy, which I label as impact. What that impact is is personal. For you, it could be getting a new job, it could be getting a promotion. It might simply be being heard in meetings when you’re at work, you can achieve impact when you have leadership presence.  And that’s it for this episode. I hope you’re feeling a little bit more informed and inspired to develop leadership presence. Now I have an ask, two asks, actually. First, please hit subscribe. Wherever you’re listening, whether it’s Spotify, Apple, or YouTube, wherever you are, please hit subscribe, and then you won’t miss any of the communication skills, coaching tips that you get from me and Talk About Talk every two weeks. My second ask is that you share this episode with a friend. Do you have a friend who might benefit from these insights on executive presence and leadership presence? Spread the word. Thank you. So much, and thank you for listening. Talk soon. The post Rethinking Executive Presence: How to Show Up with Real LEADERSHIP PRESENCE (ep. 207) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

You know the person: they derail meetings, push back on everything, and somehow make simple projects complicated. So how do you actually handle it without losing your mind? In this Talk About Talk episode, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki walks you through exactly what to do when you’re dealing with difficult people at work, whether that’s a customer, a direct report, a peer, or even your boss. If you’re wondering when and how to escalate the situation, Andrea’s five-step escalation sequence provides you with a step-by-step playbook. You’ll also learn the two-word principle that keeps you from getting pulled into drama with difficult people. This is Part 2 of a two-part series. If you haven’t listened to Part 1 yet, start there to get the foundational framework. Then come back here for the specific tactics. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube TRANSCRIPTION How to Respond When Difficult Behavior Continues Focus on the issue, not on the person. Refuse to get pulled into the, you always do this, you’ve done this, you shouldn’t do that. You can’t do this. It’s not about you and me. It’s actually about the issue or the challenge. Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. This is part two of a two part mini series on how to deal with difficult people. So here’s the question. Have you noticed someone at work who’s being chronically difficult, confrontational, or nasty? Either to you or maybe to everyone. Have you tried to diagnose what’s going on based on the Dr. David rock scarf framework and still nothing has changed? Well, I hope what you’re about to learn in this episode will have a positive impact. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk. We’re going to. Strategies for how you can respond to these difficult people depending on who they are. And I’m also gonna share a sequence of steps that you can follow, steps that you should follow if things aren’t changing or perhaps if they’re getting worse. Let me start with strategies for how to respond to different people. How you respond, what you do can and should vary depending on who it is that’s being difficult. How to Respond Based on Who’s Being Difficult So I’m gonna run through this list of five different types of people or categories of people and what you should and shouldn’t do depending on who they are. That’s being difficult. You’ll see what I mean in a minute. So the first one. Is no one. So it’s not that the person is being difficult, it’s actually that you are in a difficult or a challenging situation. In this case, I say, great, the opportunity here is for you to pull the team together and go for a win. Corral the group and focus on what you can do to overcome this difficult situation. Okay, that was a little bit of a cheater. Now let’s get into the actual people. So imagine you have this scenario where it’s either a one-off situation or a customer or a client who is chronically difficult. The first thing I suggest you do is pause. Don’t get caught up. Getting emotional and responding in a reactionary way to how this difficult client or customer is acting. The second thing that I do, and this one is magic, focus on the issue, not on the person. Refuse to get. Pulled into the, you always do this. You’ve done this. You shouldn’t do that. You can’t do this. It’s not about you and me. It’s actually about the issue or the challenge, and it’s the issue or the challenge that they are probably experiencing. So you could say, Hmm, I understand how this would be very frustrating, or, let’s work on this together. I think we can solve this. You’re focusing on. The issue or the challenge, not the person, it’s the situation, not the person. And then the third thing, I alluded to this a little bit here in the example that I gave. Use the pronoun, we make the default that you are working with this client or this customer in solving the challenge. Okay? So again, if it’s a client or a customer, pause. Don’t react before thinking and remind yourself, focus on the issue or the situation, not on the person, and use the term we be inclusive and encourage you to work together to solve the problem. So that’s the first one. The next one is if it’s a peer. In the previous episode, I shared a scenario where a newly promoted partner named Leanne was being challenged on a daily basis by her peer named Mike, who is also a partner at the same consulting firm where she worked. Here’s what you do with a peer. You have the opportunity to get personal. I don’t mean necessarily that you’re sharing your private thoughts and your personal life with the person, but I just mean get them into a one-on-one situation and share how you’re feeling. I actually shared this advice with Leanne when I was coaching her. I suggested that she invite Mike. To go out for lunch or for coffee and then talk to him. Say like, I noticed our relationship has really changed since we started working together as partners, and we used to confide in each other and help each other and celebrate each other. And I’d really love to go back to that because I think we can make each other look really good. We could be a team. You don’t need to necessarily need to go that far, but getting personal is a suggestion that works really well if the difficult person is your peer, someone who’s at your level. Moving on. What if they’re not at your level, but they’re actually below your level? It might be someone that you are managing that’s reporting to you, or it could be someone in a different department, but they are at a lower level in the organization, in the hierarchy. From where you are in this case, this is your opportunity. If they’re being chronically difficult to highlight the values, the expectations, and even the resources that the organization provides. People are being difficult. So I’m imagining someone here who you know is disrupting meetings, is disrupting progress and productivity in the projects that you’re working on. And so you pull them aside and you say, listen, it seems like things aren’t as productive and positive. As I was hoping they would be. And I wanna share with you that this is not consistent with the values of the organization in this organization. We pride ourselves on being collaborative and on and on and on. So you talk, highlight the firm’s values, the expectations of the organization, and even potentially, as I said, resources that you can share. It could be learning opportunities or other things, coaching to, uh, help the person. Whatever the challenges that they’re experiencing. Okay, so that’s if it’s a subordinate. The next one gets really interesting, and I have two suggestions. If it’s your boss, things can get pretty tricky. So I have two suggestions. The first is a quick one. The second one requires a little bit of an explanation. So the first one, the quick one is if you are reporting to someone who is chronically difficult, you can ask yourself. What can I learn from the situation? What can I learn about what I do not want to do if and when I get promoted to this level? I remember coaching a very impressive woman who was working in not-for-profit, and she was reporting to the executive director who was basically responsible for the not-for-profit and who reported into the board of directors, and she said, this woman was an absolute. Tyrant, of course not with the board, but with her direct reports, including my client. And so I said, if nothing else, you can learn from this situation. What not to do when you someday become an executive director of a not-for-profit and you’ll know exactly what not to do. And in fact, fast forward a couple years, she now is an executive director of a different not-for-profit. And she said, I have a playbook of what not to do, how not to treat my staff. So that’s one way of kind of it. It’s not overcoming the situation, but it’s reconciling it in your mind, how you can maintain a sense of productivity and maybe even job satisfaction. You’re learning what not to do. The second one here, I’m gonna say this is a little bit personal because this is advice that I received from my father when I had the experience of reporting to a boss who was being very difficult and chronically so. So I have this distinct memory of. Presenting something to, it was my boss’s boss at the time, at a meeting where he had challenged me and the team that I was leading to meet certain challenges. And if we did, we were gonna be given permission to launch a new product. My team had gone away under my direction, established what the criteria that we were gonna achieve. And we had worked together really hard to achieve this criteria, these benchmarks. And I went back with great pride in anticipation and presented our results and our recommendations for the new product launch to my boss’s boss. And he was like, eh, I don’t know, Andrea, I mean, whatever. And I was like, what? I remember I was so upset. I eventually did convince him that we should launch the product that we had worked so hard on. But I remember being so upset and I actually went. I left the building. I went down to my car and I called my dad and I was commiserating. I said, dad, I don’t know what to do. I don’t know how much longer I can handle this. I’m asking my team to jump through hoops, and they’re doing so and they’re exceeding my expectations. And then when I go to this guy, he’s constantly changing his mind. He’s a horrible boss. And my dad asked me this question that I’m now sharing with you. He said, does your boss’s boss do his values reflect. The values of the organization, or is he an anomaly? And I said, why do you ask? He said, very simple, Andrea, if his values reflect the values of the organization and you are misaligned, you need to get outta there. However, if he’s the anomaly, if your boss’s boss is the one whose values contradict, not only yours, but also the values of the organization, things typically have a way of working out. I was like, Hmm, that kind of makes sense. I would say in this case, it’s the latter. My boss’s boss is an anomaly. I know a lot of people get frustrated with him and his values are not aligned with those of the organization, and he said, well, my suggestion is not forever, Andrea. That would be ridiculous, but. You could probably wait this out and things have a way of working out. And you know what? My dad was right within a couple months. This guy, he was a vice president at the time. He got moved into a different department and then he got let go and I thanked my father and I have shared that advice with plenty of people who say, this is very sage advice. So if it’s your boss. First of all, ask yourself, what can I learn about how not to manage people from this person? And secondly, ask yourself whether their values and their behavior are aligned with the values of the organization. If they are not, you can wait it out. If they are, you probably need to make a move. So we’ve covered now a couple of different scenarios, maybe. No one is being difficult, and it’s the situation that’s your opportunity to pull your team together. Perhaps it’s your client or your customer who’s being difficult, in which case I shared three suggestions. Pause, focus on the issue and use the term we, if it’s your peer, get personal. If it’s your subordinate. Highlight the values, expectations, and resources of the organization. If it’s your boss, as I just said, ask yourself, what can I learn about what not to do? And ask yourself whether their values are aligned with the organization. There’s one other person that it might be that’s being difficult. If it’s everyone, if everyone around you, all of your clients. Your peers, your subordinates, your boss, your family, your friends. If everyone is around you is being difficult, then I have to say it’s probably you. I’m just kidding. That never happens. So that’s my summary of the differential advice that I have for you for dealing with difficult people depending on who it is. A Step-by-Step Sequence for When Things Don’t Improve Now, this is critically important. What’s the sequence to follow when things. Aren’t getting better or maybe they’re even getting worse. Well, I have a list. This is a sequence, a step-by-step sequence of things that you should do. I distinctly remember sharing this with a senior leader whom I coached last year. She was on the senior leadership team at her corporate law firm, and she hired me to help her communicate with more credibility and authority. She also specifically asked me how to respond to one of her peers. Another corporate lawyer who constantly interrupted her in their leadership team meetings. I shared the sequence with her then that I’m gonna take you through right now. Are you ready? So the first thing is to casually reference whatever it is, secondly, publicly and directly reference it. Three, check in with others and get an ally. Four, ask the person directly and emphatically. And the fifth and last step. Is to escalate to HR or senior leadership. A lot of folks, including this woman, this corporate lawyer that I was coaching, they find themselves in these scenarios where they’ve, they really don’t have a strategy or a sequence to follow. And having this sequence will make you feel like you’re in a little bit more control, and it’ll make sure that you are not wasting any opportunities to try to correct the situation. The idea here is that hopefully after step one or after step two or after step three, the sooner the better. The behavior is gonna change with a difficult person, so. After you’ve started to notice what’s going on, and maybe you’ve even jotted down, I remembered it started on such and such date, you could put it in a journal or in an email to yourself or something. The first thing you should do is casually reference it. So I told this woman, this corporate lawyer, and I’m telling you, you could almost make a joke out of it. You’re in a meeting, the guy interrupts you. You say, Hey, you keep interrupting me. No, go ahead. Go ahead. Right. You’re casually referencing it sometimes. Calling it out. Labeling the behavior will encourage the person to stop. Often not, but sometimes step two is much more direct. This is where you publicly and directly referenced the behavior. So in the case of this corporate lawyer and this peer of hers that kept interrupting her, she said to him when he interrupted her twice in a meeting, she said, that is the second time. In the last 10 minutes that you’ve interrupted me, I’m gonna finish my sentence and then I’d love to hear what you have to say. She said, I’m gonna finish my point here and then I’m gonna pass it over to you. And then she didn’t even pause. She just kept talking and turned it over to him. So this is step two, publicly and directly referencing the behavior. This is a little bit more emphatic than the casual reference, right? If that doesn’t work, you move on to step three. This is when you check in with others. And potentially get an ally. So this woman with this gentleman who was interrupting her constantly, she went to one of the other senior partners and she said, listen. I’m not gossiping behind someone’s back. I just wanna make sure that what I’m witnessing here, what I’m experiencing is real. I’ve noticed that whatever the guy’s name is, Sam is constantly interrupting me. I’m worried that it’s affecting my credibility and I’m feeling like my voice isn’t being heard. Is it just me? And the guy was like. It is not just you. It is absolutely not just you. I can’t believe that you’ve put up with it for as long as you can. And that’s when she went in for the ally. She said, listen, the next time we’re in a meeting and I asked him to not interrupt me. If he keeps doing it, do you mind stepping in? And he goes, absolutely. In fact, you don’t need to say anything. I’ll say it. And so the next meeting that they went to, guess what happened? The guy interrupted her and her friend Sam stepped in and said, listen. You’ve been interrupting her over, not just this meeting, but many meetings, and we all need to respect each other and to listen to what the points that we’re making. Please let her speak. Guess what? The interruption stopped. So that’s step three. Check in with others. Make sure you’re clear by the way, when you’re checking in, this is not about gossiping. This is about confirming whether what you’re experiencing. Actually is what other people are witnessing and the opportunity potentially to get an ally on your side. If that doesn’t work, step four. Is directly and emphatically asking the person to stop. So I shared with this client, this corporate lawyer, if he doesn’t stop, after you get an ally to step in for you, that’s when you book a meeting with him. Ask him to come into your office, close the door, look him in the eye and say, I’ve been tracking this for the last three months. You’ve been interrupting me. It is affecting my credibility. It’s affecting our productivity as a leadership team, and I’m asking you to stop. That step is also necessary because if it doesn’t work after that, you go to step six, which is escalating to human resources or senior leadership. And here’s where it’s really important that you have followed the previous four steps, because if you go to hr, the first thing they’re gonna say is, have you asked them to stop? Then they’re gonna say, have other people noticed this? Have you directly and emphatically asked this person to stop whatever the behavior is? Right? And you’re gonna say, I first noticed on this day, I casually referenced it on this day. I publicly and directly referenced it on this day. I checked in with so-and-so. He or she confirmed that I’m not crazy. This is actually what’s going on. They became an ally. They also asked the person to stop, and then I booked a meeting with the person and directly and emphatically asked them, so you’re going in. In good faith, telling them that you tried to solve the problem, you solve yourself. You did everything in your power and it didn’t work. This will help you maintain credibility with HR or senior leadership before you escalate it, and then you can turn things over to them knowing that you’ve done everything that you could. Wrap-Up & Key Takeaways Okay, so now in this episode. We’ve covered strategies for how to respond to different people who are being chronically difficult, depending on whether they’re your customer or your client, or your peer, or your subordinate or your boss. Different strategies work for different people, and now you also know the sequence to follow. When things don’t get better, one casually reference it two publicly and directly reference it. Three. Check in with others and get an ally. Four. Ask them directly and emphatically, and then five, you can escalate it. I hope that this episode in combination with the previous episode 2 0 4, where we talked about the mindset you need to adopt and the scarf framework for diagnosing what’s going on. I hope this helps you feel better equipped on how to deal with difficult people. Please. Let me know how it goes. I know it’s not pleasant, but these skills will help you immensely. And don’t forget to subscribe to this talk about Talk podcast no matter what podcast platform you’re on. Click subscribe now so you don’t miss any of these opportunities for communication skills coaching. Thanks for listening and talk soon. The post Dealing with Difficult People at Work – Part 2 (ep.206) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

If you’re dealing with a difficult person at work, this episode will help you handle it. Dr. Andrea Wojnicki shares a simple mindset shift that will help you feel empowered, plus a 5 word mantra that changes everything. Andrea shares a real client story about a newly promoted partner who was being undermined by a colleague, and how this simple mindset shift completely transformed her experience. You’ll also learn the S.C.A.R.F. Framework, a powerful diagnostic tool created by Dr. David Rock. This framework helps you understand exactly why someone is being difficult (Status, Certainty, Autonomy, Relatedness, and Fairness) so you can respond strategically instead of reacting emotionally. This is Part 1 of a two-part series. In Part 2, you’ll learn specific do’s and don’ts for dealing with difficult customers, direct reports, peers, and even your boss, plus a step-by-step sequence for when things escalate. If you’re ready to stop dreading these interactions and start handling them with confidence, this episode is for you. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube TRANSCRIPTION Why Dealing with Difficult People Is Part of Leadership Part of your job is dealing with these difficult people. It might not literally be in your job description, but ask yourself this: as a senior leader, who else is gonna deal with these difficult people? Unfortunately, dealing with difficult people at work is a common challenge. In fact, I have to tell you this, I’ve noticed that requests for coaching and workshops on this topic are becoming more frequent. Let me tell you why I encourage you to listen to this episode. Personally, I am a pretty positive person. I’m definitely an optimist, and I’d prefer to only cover positive topics if I could here at Talk About Talk. But the demand for strategies for dealing with difficult people is real. Here’s the good news. You are going to learn some. Actionable frameworks and strategies for dealing with these difficult people that really work. You will feel empowered. Are you ready? Let’s do this. Let’s Talk About Talk.  About the Host: Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach here at Talk About Talk, where I coach driven professionals like you so that you can communicate with confidence and ultimately achieve your career goals. You can learn more about everything we do here at Talk about Talk, including private one-on-one coaching and online courses. Corporate workshops and more. If you go to talk about talk.com, we just relaunched the website, and there are plenty of free resources there for you as well, including my free communication coaching newsletter. Okay, let’s get into this. In this episode, you are going to learn a deceptively simple strategy that I promise will help you deal with difficult people, and also you’re gonna learn a framework to help you diagnose what exactly is going on with these difficult people. This, of course, will inform you about how to respond if you have a diagnosis. It tells you what the treatment is, right? First, though. The deceptively simple strategy.  Leanne and Mike: When a Peer Becomes the Problem Let me tell you a quick story about a client. Let’s call her Leanne. Leanne was an incredibly driven consultant who hired me to help her boost her communication skills. She actually called me her secret weapon. She was gunning for a big promotion to partner at her firm, and it turns out she got that promotion when we were just a few months into our six-month coaching program. But that is when things got really difficult for Leanne, as in. She started to have to deal with difficult people. Actually, one main person, let’s call him Mike, actually, I think his name might have been Mike. So Leanne and Mike started at the firm at about the same time, and he got promoted just a few months before her. They were both new partners and their offices were near each other. To Leanne’s surprise, things got pretty ugly pretty quickly. She told me that Mike seemed to be going out of his way to undermine her. He would argue with her. He would argue with the recommendations that she made in meetings. He would raise his eyebrows and shake his head when she spoke up, and he even organized meetings and forgot to invite her. So publicly and privately, in person and online, Mike was being a very difficult person. Leanne told me that at first she decided to ignore it, but then that didn’t work. So she tried to go out of her way to be friendly with Mike. Guess what? No change. She even tried fighting back, as she called it, in one of her meetings when he disagreed with her, and she ended up coming across as defensive and regretting her response. Andrea, what should I do?  “It’s Part of My Job”: A Simple but Powerful Reframe She pleaded, here’s what I told Leanne, and here is what I’m telling you. This is a deceptively simple mindset shift that you’ll need to adopt to survive as a senior leader, especially when these difficult people rear their ugly heads. It’s a five-word mantra. Are you ready for it? Here it is.  It’s part of my job. Lemme say that again. It’s part of my job. What exactly do I mean by that? Well, here’s the thing. When you’re junior in your career, and maybe even when you’re a middle manager, you have a boss who’s looking over your shoulder, making sure you’re learning the technical skills and doing everything right and checking all the boxes for you to help you get promoted. And if someone slows you down, if there’s a difficult person that gets in your way, it’s your boss’s job to fix the situation. But then, when you advance up the corporate ladder, here’s the insight. Part of your job is dealing with these difficult people. It might not literally be in your job description, but ask yourself this: as a senior leader, who else is gonna deal with these difficult people? It’s now part of what you do, so accept it and figure out how, instead of dwelling on how negative the situation is, dwell on your skills to deal with it. When I shared this insight with Leanne, she told me, okay, Andrea, that makes sense. I’m gonna try it out, and I’ll let you know what happens then. At our next coaching session, she couldn’t wait to tell me how this simple mindset shift helped her deal with Mike. She told me, Andrea, when I see Mike’s name in my inbox now, or when he knocks on my office door, I actually smile to myself, and I say, here comes part of my job. You got this. And then that’s what she does. It’s empowering. It makes you feel less like a victim. So I encourage you to try this too. Instead of dwelling on, woe is me. Why do I have to deal with this difficult person? Instead? Remind yourself that as a leader, this is part of your job. And then. Get on with it, but what exactly do you do from there? Well, I do have some suggestions.  The SCARF Framework: Diagnosing Difficult Behavior So the first thing I want to share with you is a framework that will help you diagnose what is going on. When I teach this framework, people tell me they love it, and I hope you love it too. It’s called the SCARF framework. I didn’t create it. It was created in 2008, about 25 years ago, by Dr. David Rock. And frankly, I have to say, I’m a bit surprised that this framework hasn’t gotten more traction. Most people tell me they haven’t heard about this. Maybe I should invite Dr. David Rock to be a podcast guest here to talk about Talk. Okay. Here is Dr. Rock’s scarf theory. He says that our behaviors are guided in part by five things that we seek. If any of these five things come under threat, we act out as in yes, we become difficult. Scarf is the acronym that will help you remember what the five things are. S-C-A-R-F stands for status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness, and fairness. Got that. Its status, certainty, and autonomy. Relatedness and fairness. You can find the list in the show notes, but let me briefly define each of these and share some ideas on how you might respond if you diagnose someone as feeling like any one of these things is under threat. Okay. The first is S status. Status is about respect and acknowledgement. Maybe with a competitive edge. It’s a little bit about standing out. When I was coaching Leanne, I asked her whether Mike might feel like perhaps she threatened his status. Yep. When people feel respected and important, their status is secure. They’ll feel more engaged at work. If their status is threatened, they may lash out because they feel embarrassed or diminished. So what can you do? You can appeal to their need for status. And I’m telling you, this works. Okay, so that’s the first one. S is for status, Part of your job is dealing with these difficult people…” and the next one, C, is certainty. The example I always give with certainty is COVID. Do you remember how uncertain we all felt? Like, how dangerous is this really? And how long is this gonna last? And on and on. And of course, our anxiety and our stress levels skyrocketed. We were feeling uncertain, and many of us lashed out. The best leaders in organizations are the ones who provide certainty if someone’s being difficult because they feel things are uncertain. What you can do is make them feel certain, provide them with predictability, and tell them what the plan is. That’s it. Okay, moving on. The third one is autonomy. Autonomy is about control. It’s about being independent. When we lose control, when our autonomy is under threat, we might become difficult. It’s natural, like when employers say we have to come back to work on certain days, and maybe for certain hours. Some people feel like their autonomy is under threat. And you know what? That’s fair. Do you see how this works? So we’ve covered it. S is status. C is certainty. A is autonomy, and by the way, I have to mention this, these are not mutually exclusive. You can experience one or more of these things at the same time. Or if someone’s being difficult at the workplace, you might diagnose them as potentially feeling like two or even three of these five things are under threat. Moving on. The fourth is r. Relatedness or I say relationships. This is about social groups. We are social beings, and we all wanna be in the ingroup. However, you define that. If someone feels like their status as being in this ingroup is threatened, you better believe they’ll act out. On the other hand, have you ever noticed how you feel when someone refers to you as being in the collective, the we and the us, and how satisfying that is? That’s what I’m talking about here, relatedness. Okay. We’re onto the last one. F. Is for fairness. Fairness as in consistency. Consistency over time, and consistency across people. This is a common one that people tell me is their diagnosis. When someone’s being difficult at work, it’s often because that person perceives that something is just not fair. Okay, so there you go. Scarf status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness, and fairness.  Wrap-Up: How to Apply SCARF—and What’s Coming in Part 2 Are you trying to deal with someone who’s being difficult at work? Here’s my suggestion. First, stop complaining about it and tell yourself, this is part of my job. I can do this. Then use the scarf framework to diagnose what’s going on and to inform you about how to respond. I hope this helps people tell me that it does. And in the next episode in two weeks, I’m gonna share with you some dos and don’ts, specific suggestions for how to deal with these difficult people. After you diagnose the issue, you certainly need to understand whether it’s your customer or your client, or maybe it’s your direct report. Or maybe it’s a peer, like with Leanne and Mike, or maybe it’s your boss. That’s always a fun one when your boss is a difficult person. I have some fantastic suggestions and strategies to share with you about how to deal with these folks, and I’m also gonna share with you a sequence of steps to follow if things escalate. Unfortunately, sometimes things get worse, and you end up having to go to HR or escalate it in some way, and I’m gonna share with you exactly what you need to do and when, step by step. So that’s the next episode. If you’re not already subscribed to this talk about Talk podcast, please hit subscribe now in whatever podcast platform you’re on, and then you’re gonna automatically receive part two of dealing with difficult people and more communication skills coaching from me. That’s it. Thanks for listening and talk soon.   The post Dealing with Difficult People at Work – Part 1 (ep.205) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

New year, new you. What does that actually mean? Dr. Andrea Wojnicki makes it clear: it’s not about reinventing yourself or becoming someone you’re not. It’s about rediscovering your strengths, elevating your best self, and defining a professional identity that helps you achieve your career goals in 2026 and beyond. In this episode, Andrea shares a powerful personal brand training session that walks you through three critical questions designed to reveal what your authentic professional brand should be. You’ll explore what you’re most proud of from 2025, your biggest career accomplishment from the last decade, and what you truly want to accomplish moving forward. Andrea also shares three definitions of personal branding that will inspire and guide you, plus her proven Present-Past-Future self-introduction framework that helps you present yourself with confidence and impact in any professional setting. The episode also includes a live Q&A where Andrea tackles tough questions about ageism in the workplace, how to introduce yourself in sales calls, navigating social media versus in-person communication, and more. If you’re ready to present your true best self and not the version your boss thinks you should be, this episode is for you. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE Archetypes Quiz – http://talkabouttalk.com/archetypesquiz Ageism Episode – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/ageism-160/ TRANSCRIPTION Andrea Wojnicki: Happy New Year, and welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. Let’s do this.  Let’s Talk About Talk. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach here at Talk About Talk, where I coach ambitious professionals to communicate with confidence and credibility so they can achieve their career goals in 2026 and beyond. New Year, New You: Clarifying Your Professional Identity Earlier this year, I hosted a live training event called New Year, New You personal brand training. In this session, we covered all sorts of definitions and activities and exercises, and three questions that I ask myself and that I encourage you to ask yourself to help you develop your ideal, positive personal brand in 2026 and beyond. Are you ready? Here we go. I wanna start by saying truly how much I was thinking about this as I was getting ready, how much I think about respect that you’ve taken time out of. I know no matter what you do, you have a busy schedule, you have lots to do, and this time of year. It’s like it gets all bottled up and then boom, first week of January, you’re back at it and you’re taking an hour of your time to spend with me. I feel honored. I feel privileged about that, but I also, I already have a lot of respect for you, whether I know you or not, for taking this time to invest in yourself. So I promise you, in the next hour, I’m gonna share with you some things where my intent is to provide you with some real impact in how to help you develop your. Ideal personal brand, or what we’re calling in this context here are professional identity. Okay? What This Session Will (and Won’t) Do for You So it’s a new year and a new you and I was, I was also thinking about this a lot. New Year, new you. I do not mean reinventing you and turning you into something that you are not already. I’m talking maybe about rediscovering something about you that you haven’t been thinking about in the way that you maybe should. I am talking about. Really elevating your best self, okay? So that you are as happy. And as successful as you can possibly be. So we’re not talking about your needs, the things that your boss is telling you that you need to work on. We’re actually thinking about the opposite. We’re thinking about your strengths and your skills and your expertise and how to share those things with the world, and actually for how you can think about those things more yourself. I am not gonna waste your time. We’ve got a lot to get through here. I am very ambitious, I’m gonna say that in terms of what we’re gonna generally and in this hour in terms of what we’re gonna get through. So I’m not gonna waste my time. I’ve been to some of these events where people spend 15 minutes introducing themselves. I am not gonna do that. I’m gonna say, many of you already know me on LinkedIn. If you don’t, you can check me out on LinkedIn. Um, I’m Andrea Wa there, but probably what might be more helpful is if you go to the talkabouttalk.com website, and you can learn all about me there, including the podcast. I have a biweekly podcast on Apple, on Spotify. We have a YouTube channel now where all the episodes are there and all of the. Past live trainings that we’ve done like this one are there. So you can, there’s lots of resources. And one resource in particular that I wanna draw your attention to is my biweekly email newsletter. So every two weeks, if you sign up, you get an email from me, and it’s an update with me. And my objective with this email is basically to provide you with free communication skills coaching. So I coach ambitious executives, I’m guessing like yourself, who have establish some level of technical expertise, and you’re looking to step it up in terms of your career and maybe in terms of your life. And you’ve identified communication skills rightly as one of the things that can really help you get there. So in that newsletter, which I hope you’ll sign up for, you can get free coaching from me there and keep updated on everything that’s going on in the talk about talk world. Okay. What I want you to do now in the next 55 minutes, we’re gonna think of this as a, not just a training session, but a real-time coaching session where you’re gonna make some traction and make some progress in terms of not just thinking about, but actually writing down what your ideal brand is. So if you have a piece of paper and a pen or a notebook or something like that, please get those out. And if you don’t. You can write it in your phone. Some people like to write notes in their phone. Write it on another device. You can also rewatch this video later on YouTube, and it’ll also be posted on LinkedIn. Okay? So get your paper and pen ready. I’m gonna take you through four things. For those of you who know me. You’ll be like, what? It’s not three. I know. I told you I was really ambitious. It’s a new year. Four things. The first thing I’m gonna do is I’m gonna ask you three. Really important questions, and I want you to write your answers down, so that’s why you need a piece of paper and a pen. Okay, so first thing is three questions. The second thing is going to be three definitions of personal branding, but that’s also gonna help you inspire and define your brand. Okay? Then I’m going to share with you a three-point self-introduction framework, and I know from the folks in the audience for a few of you, this is gonna be a refresher. You’ve seen it before, but we’re gonna be looking at it through a new lens. Then I’m gonna share with you three reasons why this work is so important and how you can do it. And then we’re gonna get into a q and a. So in the Q & A, for those of you who know me, you know that I love an open q and a where I have no idea what you’re gonna ask me. So I always make time for that at the end, if you have questions, you can save them for when we do the live q and a, or you can put them in the chat. So I’m gonna be looking for people who are raising their hands first, and then we’ll go into the chat for, um.  Three Questions That Define Your Personal Brand Okay, so let’s get into this. I don’t have slides for this part. I will when we get into the definitions and everything, but we’re gonna start now by me asking you, and I’ve asked myself these questions, by the way, three really important questions that can inform what your personal brand should be, and it might surprise you what these questions are. It might not. But regardless, I think these are questions that we don’t ask ourselves often enough, and if you really double down on the answers for these, you’ll be doing yourself a big favor. Okay? The first question is this. What are you most proud of that you accomplished? That’s a very general term, right? Accomplished. 25. So before you answer that, I just wanna say we in this session, in this one-hour session, are focusing on your professional identity. And many of us, I hope, have personal accomplishments that they’re really proud of. So, for our context here, let’s keep it in the context of your career. It could be a skill that you learned. It could be a leadership skill. It could like, it could be a soft skill or a hard skill, right? And the soft skills often are related to ourselves personally as well. Like you could say, I really worked on my listening, or I really worked on not using filler words. And this is professional and personal, but I want, if you said like, I’m really proud of, you know, having my oldest child graduate and go off to college, that’s an amazing accomplishment, and you should definitely be celebrating that. But that’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about personal or professional accomplishments.  So again, it could be a skill, it could be an award that you won, something that you got a big check mark on. It could be something that maybe at the beginning of 2025, you and your boss decided that it was something you needed to work on, and then at the end of the year, you were told that you made great strides. It could be that. I want you to write that down. That’s the first question. Okay. You can, of course, continue to refine your answer to these questions, but that’s number one. The second question is, I want you to just pull the lens way back. What is the thing that you are most proud of in terms of your career in the last 10 years? So I was gonna say five years, and then I thought, I know from myself and from some other people that I coach that things may have happened five or six or seven. It doesn’t really matter. It’s like recent history in the last 10 years. What are you really proud of in your career? Again, it could be you learned a hard skill. It could be you launched a new product. It could be that you made a career change. It could be that you earned a degree or other credentials. By the way, you’re allowed to answer with more than one thing, but you need to have at least one thing that you’re really proud of from the last 10 years. Okay? Now, at this point, when I’m coaching folks one-on-one, I often get this comment from people they say, I find this really hard to answer, Andrea, because I spend so much of my time thinking about what I need to work on. My weaknesses or my developmental areas. So that’s what’s really special about this work. On personal branding, we purposely focus on the positive, unique, and relevant things that you wanna reinforce. And of course, you need to work on your development areas, but we rarely double down on our strengths and our accomplishments. So that’s where I wanted to kick this off. So you’ve got your, hopefully. Answer number to question number two, which is what is the accomplishment or the skill that you are most proud of from the last 10 years? Okay. Now you’re probably wondering what the next question is. Is it gonna be like the last 25 years? I know some of you probably aren’t even 25 years old. No, that’s not where we’re headed. The third question is something that I know personally and from coaching hundreds and hundreds of folks can be very, very illuminating. And the question is this, what compliments have you received that mean the most to you? So for some of you, you might be like, oh, I know what it is right away. For most of you, you probably don’t. So here’s the thing, when we. Receive compliments from people. We light up, we feel happy, we feel validated. We feel appreciated. We feel like we are successful at something, right? So we might be told that we are smart, or we might be told that we’re attractive, or we might be told that we are a kind person. If you had to choose out of those, which one, it’s not that they’re not all fantastic, of course they are, but which one is the most meaningful? Which one lights you up? I can tell you the compliment that I’ve received a couple times in the last, I don’t know, six, eight months from my clients that really lights me up is they’ll say to me, Andrea, you have incredible listening powers when we’re in these coaching sessions. You really listen to what I’m saying, and then you’re able to interpret what I’m saying and then articulate it in a way that I’ve never thought of it before, but it’s true to me. And that just shows that you’re really listening. And when my clients tell me that I light up because I’m, I’m like, well, I wasn’t actually listening on purpose. I was just really trying to understand them so I could help them articulate their brand. And when they say that I’ve done that, I light up. So what compliment have you received? That lights you up. And this is really important for your brand because these compliments and your responses to them are telling you something, perhaps about where you should be focusing more. So the fact that this lights me up really to me, reinforces that I’m doing the right thing with my career and coaching people. Because if the compliment is that I’m. Making an impact on my clients, and that’s what lights me up, then that’s exactly what I should be doing. So again, I’m sharing my first-person story here, hopefully to inspire you to think about when have you felt that way when someone made a specific compliment to you that really lit you up? If you’re not sure about what this compliment is, the other thing that you could do is I have an archetypes quiz on my website. It’s talkabouttalk.com/. Archetypes quiz, and if you take the quiz, you’ll get an email back that tells you what your archetype is. So when I take this quiz, it tells me that my archetype is magician and someone who leads people through transformation, and I’m like, that maps perfectly to the compliment that lights me up. It’s not a coincidence. Right? So the answer to this question, what lights you up in terms of a compliment and what your archetype is? Probably, there’s probably a very direct link there. There should be a very direct link there. So I guess my challenge to you is to answer that question first. To the best of your ability. And then if you wanna, the quiz is free, by the way. When you take the quiz, you can see whether it valid and what I hear from people, they, you know, guess what their archetype might be. Or they, they think about what the compliments are and when they get the answer back from the quiz, the results of the quiz, if they align with what they. Thought before it’s great. It’s very validating, and sometimes they don’t. It’s a little bit different, but then they see the archetype, and they’re like, but actually that’s really true. And it this helps you feel seen and this your archetype can help inform what is unique about your brand that you should be reinforcing. So the archetypes all talk about a PO one of 12 positive personas that, um. Is like a universal pattern that people will understand and that you can use to reinforce your strengths. Okay, so we’ve got, hopefully, you’ve written down three answers to three questions that I asked. What are you most proud of from 2025 in terms of your career? What are you most proud of from the last 10 years, and what compliment lights you up the most? I kind of feel like I may have opened a big can of worms here because you’re like, okay, this, this feels good. It’s all positive, Andrea, but what am I gonna do with it? I’m gonna take you through some definitions and an exercise, uh, uh, self-introduction framework, and some benefits of personal branding now, and I’m gonna be referencing back to these questions and your answers to these questions to help you sort of make sense of how you can leverage them. So, by the way, your answers to these questions should be evolving all the time. I, I encourage you to ask yourself these questions the next time someone compliments yourself. I hope you have a new lens on that compliment, and you think compliments are nice. How does this one rank in all of the compliments that I’ve received? Is it a just nice to hear or is it like telling me something? My response to it? Is it telling me something that I should be paying attention to in terms of my brand, how I’m being perceived by other,s and how, what I wanna be thinking about myself. Okay. I wish I could read what all of you wrote down so badly. All right. Here we are. New year. New. Yes. By the way, I’m wearing the same blouse I was, I was like it, looking at what to wear today, and I’m like, I should just wear the same thing that I’m wearing on the, um, on the poster for this event.  From Self-Awareness to Strategy: Being Yourself on Purpose Okay, so the first question is, what is a personal brand? I’m gonna start by telling you what it is not. So my guess is that, well, I hope that you are not in the camp of folks out there, and there are plenty of these folks who think that personal branding is about turning you into social media influencer or monetizing your brand, Andrea, encouraging you to quit your job. So because you’re, you’re feeling empowered to go out there and become this big, you know, influencer, celebrity that is not, that is not what we were talking about here. Okay? We are talking about identifying, as I said before. The positive, unique, and relevant traits about you that you wanna reinforce. You can think of your personal brand in the same way that marketers, brand marketers, think about product brands, right? Like you’re selling a box of Tide, you’re selling, uh, I don’t know, an AI software platform or whatever you’re selling. You think about what are the unique characteristics of this product that I want people to know. It’s exactly the same. Almost exactly the same with people. With people. It evolves, though, right? Because the world changes. We grow, our family changes, our careers change. But you can think of it as your reputation or your identity. Over the years I’ve used, as I’ve been coaching folks, I’ve been using different definitions of personal branding and, uh, the one that I think is the most well known is this one from Jeff Bezos. If you haven’t heard it, you, I’m, this is probably a reminder for most of you, any article that I have read in the last, at least five years on personal branding, almost always within the first three paragraphs this comes up, Jeff Bezos says, your brand is what people say about you when you’re not in the room. So I want you to add, this is a real coaching session here, okay? I want you to ask yourself. The important stakeholders in your career. It could be your boss and your boss’s boss who look after succession planning. It could be your clients, your customers, or your consumers. It could be your colleagues at work. It probably is your colleagues at work, no matter what. It could be your people that you’re negotiating with. It could be investors. If you are an entrepreneur, these important stakeholders, what are they? Saying and actually thinking about you when you’re not in the room. So imagine you just met with them and you leave. What’s their impression of you? Or if I just ask them right now, or if you could read their mind and your name comes to mind, what are they thinking and saying about you? That’s your brand. Now, here’s where a lot of people say, oh Andrea, it is not good. That is not like it. I mean, it’s fine, but it’s not what I want people to think about me. And I say, that’s great. That’s why we’re doing this work. But if you’re gonna be. You know, if you’re really gonna make an impact here with your brand, you gotta start with what people are already thinking and saying about you, and also thinking about what you wanna reinforce. So now I want you to go back to the three questions also and ask yourself, do these people know about these good things that I’ve accomplished in the last year, in the last 10 years? Is there a way without bragging or being awkward about it, that they, that this can come up in conversation. Should it be on my LinkedIn profile? Are they aware of these compliments that other people are giving me that are lighting me up? Did are they aware of these things? These are important questions to ask yourself. Okay, so this is, this is. Very helpful. This is actually an exercise that I do take folks through when I’m coaching them in masterclasses and one-on-one coaching. It’s very helpful. Um, and I brought this up when. Two years ago, I interviewed the marketing guru, Seth Godin, who’s written many, many, many, many books. Uh, depending on how you count them, it’s either 20 something or 80 something. Um, and he also ran the podcasting fellowship that I did, uh, six and a half years ago. So I asked him if I could interview him. He said, sure. And it was. Fascinating conversation. Let me tell you, this guy thinks like no one, like I knew when I logged on, this is not gonna be a normal interview. And I also said to myself, I’ve listened to many of the other folks that have interviewed him on podcasts. I’m gonna ask him questions that my audience wants to know. So we started talking about personal branding, of course, and he said, oh, people think my brand is my orange glasses that I wear, but that’s not my brand, that’s just my logo. And I was like. Oh goodness. We’re not gonna go down that rabbit hole. That’s just, that’s not helpful. And I said, Seth, how do you think about your brand? And this is what he said, this is gold. He said, my brand is what people think I’m gonna do next. Let that sink in for a minute. Think about the folks that I just listed, right? The boss’s boss, your colleagues, your clients, your customers, your negotiating partner, your investors, these important stakeholders who have impact on your career. What do they think you’re going to do next? Okay? At least as importantly, what do you want to do next? So this is the next thing I want you to write down. What do you want to accomplish in your career? In 2026 and maybe beyond, do these people think it’s likely? So let me tell you one of the things that I am most proud of in 2025, it took a lot of work, and I am really proud of it, but it’s just opening a whole other, a whole other line of projects that I’m working on now is I signed a book deal, right? So, if my brand is what people think I’m going to do next, the important question for me to ask myself is, do people think I am going to write a book that is worth reading? Right? And if they do, that’s fantastic. If they don’t, what can I do to make sure that I’m evolving my reputation or my brand so that that is the case? So when Seth Godin shared this definition with me, I was like. Oh my gosh. And we talked about it for a while, and then when I finished the interview, I pulled out a piece of paper sitting where I am right now. I drew a line down the middle, and I was like, what are my goals? Do people think it’s possible? And I gave myself a score, and then I was like, how can I make people believe that this is gonna happen? Because when they believe it’s gonna happen, it’s gonna be even more successful, and it’s also more likely that I’m gonna do it. So I want you to do the same thing. What do you want to accomplish? And do other people think you are gonna do that, or that it’s conceivable or perceivable that you’re gonna do that.  And if they are great and if they’re not aligned, then you have some work to do. But this is work that is, I was gonna say, it’s not, it’s not easy work, of course. It’s not easy work, but it’s really, really important work. Okay. Alright. So we have these two definitions of personal branding from these two. Very smart, very successful, very well-meaning people, and these definitions are getting a lot of traction. The thing that bothers me about these definitions is that there’s no agency associated with them. So what do I mean by that? By agency, I mean we have no influence or control. It’s just what are people saying and thinking about us, and what do they think we’re gonna do next? So what am I gonna do about it? So here’s my definition now that I use it’s personal branding is about being yourself on purpose. And there’s really two parts of this definition that I want you to really understand here. It’s being yourself, and by yourself, I mean your true self. You’re not acting like somebody else. Your whole self. So yes, we’re talking about your professional identity, but you are also maybe a husband or a wife, or a parent, a sister or a brother, or a friend, or an athlete or a musician. Like these other things that are not directly related to your professional identity, they are related to your professional identity, right? So it is your whole self. It is your best self. So I’m asking these questions at the beginning of this session in terms of the things that you’re most proud of. I want you to start to focus more on your strengths, your accomplishments, and your skills. How can you leverage those things? Make sure you’re in opportunities where you can demonstrate those things. Make sure you’re reinforcing them. One of the interviewees that I had in my podcast last year said it so well. She said, people are afraid to share their accomplishments and their skills. And she said, I think of it more as like a service that you’re doing for the people that you’re working for. They hired you to do a job. You need to tell them what you do best. Think about it. If you know what your skills are and you share that with the people that you’re working with, then you’re gonna be doing your best work, and they’re gonna be getting the most out of you. So personal branding is about being yourself, your whole self, your true self, and your best self. You got that whole self. True self and best self. It’s not that you’re ignoring your weaknesses and areas of opportunity, but that’s not what you’re emphasizing when you’re introducing yourself and you’re interacting at work. Right. And then the second part of this definition is on purpose, and I have it in capitals because that is what we’re literally, maybe not literally physically. This is what we’re physically doing right now. We are unapologetically, strategically. Taking the time and making the effort to purposefully present ourselves in a true and effective way to others and to ourselves so that we can be our happiest and most successful self. That sounds good, right? I have this on purpose thing. I put it in caps. I emphasize it as much as I can. It’s like I hope I’m turning a light bulb on for you that most of us go through our careers doing kind of what we wanna do and a lot of what other people expect us to do, and introducing ourselves without really thinking about it. What we’re saying about ourselves. If you put a little bit of effort into identifying what your strengths are. What you love to do, what you’re good at, what your accomplishments are, and how to share that with the world and reinforce it even with yourself. This work, you know, I’m a communication coach, and my background is marketing and it’s all, you know, it’s all about like amplifying your message. Recently, I’ve been thinking more and more and more about like this whole idea of self-identity and your professional identity and your personal brand. It affects you as much as it affects everyone else. I mean, not just because of the impact and what happens, but actually how you think about yourself. So this is my definition, and personal branding is about being yourself on purpose, and what, so what this definition adds here, like I said, is agency. You can make a difference in over to Jeff Bezos, what people are saying and thinking about you. You can make a difference in as Seth Godin says what people think you’re going to do next. You can do that. And it starts by taking an inventory of the things that you love to do, that you’re good at, the compliments that mean the most to you, the accomplishments that you’re most proud of. Okay, so you see how this circles back to the three questions that I asked you at the beginning. If you wanna take a screenshot of this page, by the way, you’re absolutely more than welcome to. And again, it’ll be posted on, on YouTube if you wanna reference it there. And we’ll also be posting it on LinkedIn. My challenge here, if you want to think about these three definitions, is to. Like I said, do the mental exercise of answering the three of them for yourself, and also maybe thinking about where can you get the most traction. If you look at each of the three of them, some people say, like Andrea, I agree with your definition, but Jeff Bezos, that’s the one that really matters to me, ’cause I’m trying to convince my boss that I deserve promotion. So I want, when I’m not in the room, I want ’em to tell everyone that I need to get promoted. I’m like, bingo. That’s the definition you need to be focusing on, then. Right? So think about. Maybe which of the three is most relevant for you today, and maybe in 2026.  The Three-Point Self-Introduction Framework (Present, Past, Future) Okay. Now we are gonna move on to the three-point self-introduction framework. So some of you have seen this before, and if you have, I’m going to be. Asking you to think about it just a little bit differently in terms of integrating the three questions that I asked you at the very beginning. For the rest of you, I just wanna share a couple things. So, your self introduction, both personally and professionally, by the way, is the most direct way that you have to reinforce your brand. Think about it. Your self-introduction is your words from you about you. You’re sharing with the world, and they’reyour  words. It’s not just, oh, Andrea’s, you know, got books behind her. It’s like this implicit thing. No, no, no. These are words about you that you’re sharing. So about four years ago I did an episode on how to introduce yourself. And it very quickly became the top Talk About Talk podcast episode of all. It actually remains number one of 203 episodes as of, uh, this week. And. I wrote up, I wrote it up, and I sent it into Harvard Business Review in 2022, and in 2023, it was one of the three most downloaded articles of the year on the hbr.org website. So this topic gets a lot of traction, and the self-introduction framework works. That’s why this article was so popular. I’m gonna share it with you now. And by the way, it is so easy that you do not even need to take notes. It’s just three things you start with present.  So this is the way many people start their self-introduction, by the way, hi, my name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk, where I have a podcast, and I coach ambitious executives to be successful in their careers by focusing on their personal brands and their communication skills. So you see what I did there? It’s my name, my title, my company, my What I Do. If you’ve done the work on your personal branding, you can also. Talk about, um, maybe what your unique leadership style is, what differentiates you compared to other people. Um, but at least it is your name and what you do. Okay? So I, I told you I was gonna be linking this back to the three questions in terms of your present. If there’s something that you have accomplished, and maybe you have a new title or you have a new skill, you can talk about this in the present tense now, right? My name is whatever. I’m a chief technology officer at a BC tech company, and what differentiates me compared to other technology experts or leaders is my ability to do this. And I’ve recently, uh, developed a skill with AI, whatever it is, right? So you’re talking about yourself in the present tense. This is really important. You wanna anchor yourself introduction in who you are and what you do very often people will say. We’ll be going around the table. Why don’t you tell me about yourself? And people will start with the past, and they’ll share this kind of default, boring chronology. I’m exaggerating here, but I graduated in 2002 with a commerce degree, and then I went and worked at this company and then I, and it’s like what? Start with who you are and what you do. This is the most important thing, by the way, if you’re unemployed. I coach plenty of people that are in job transition and they say, how do I do that if I’m in job transition? You introduce yourself and you share what your expertise is, right? My name is Jane Smith. I am a finance and marketing expert, blah, blah, blah, right? You just, you get right into your expertise and you tell them your industry expertise or your functional expertise. Okay? So that’s step one. Present tense. Step two is past tense. So, here in a professional context is where you establish credibility. You, depending on the context, you might share one or two or three things. I say less is more. We all, including myself, get tempted to share too much information. You don’t wanna talk more than the person before you. You wanna speak slightly less in your self-introduction than the person who introduced themselves before you. But here’s where you can say, guess what? The answer to the, the questions that I asked you, at least question one and two, you could say I’m something I’m really proud of in the last year that I accomplished is blah, blah, blah. By the way. Telling people that you’re really proud of something, as long as you don’t do it all the time, like, I’m proud of this, I’m proud of that. I’m proud of this. I’m proud. Of course, that’s not what I’m talking about, but saying, you know what? I’m actually really proud of the fact, like I told you at the beginning, I’m really proud when my clients tell me that I am an exceptional listener. I hope you don’t take that as me being arrogant. It’s like one thing. So arrogant. People are defensive. They can do no wrong. They’re good at everything, right? Telling someone one thing that you’re proud of does not make you arrogant. In fact, you should practice. Telling people what you’re proud of. So here is where you could say, in the past 10 years, one of the most significant things in my career is that I accomplished a transition from blah, blah, blah to blah, blah, blah. Or I earned this degree. So this is where you talk about the thing from question number two, the thing that you’re proud of for the last 10 years, and then you can say, in the last year. In 2025, the accomplishment that I’m most proud of is this. And you’re telling people what your value is, what your expertise is, what your skills are, and remember what I said before. This is actually providing a service to others so that they can get value out of you. Okay, so you could talk about your past credentials, accomplishments, things that you, you know, new products that you launched, big projects that you led, or projects that you participated in. Maybe it’s your business results from 2025 or from the last five years, whatever it is. So this second step is establishing credibility. That’s how I want you to think about it. Okay? Now, many people, in fact, I’m gonna say. Most people, a significant majority of people, end their self-introduction here. They’re like, my name is blah, blah, blah. This is what I do. Previously I worked at this other company, la, la, la. And then it kind of fades off. Then the next person goes, are you done? Okay, my turn, blah, blah. Right? That’s how it goes. Sound familiar? The research shows that if you can share something. Positive and enthusiastic that things will go your way. So I first learned this from a negotiation expert who I interviewed. She was doing her PhD research on negotiations emotions, and she found this insight about the emotion of enthusiasm. And when you share enthusiasm, the negotiation is more likely to go your way. So I went into Google Scholar, and I started looking at all the research on enthusiasm. It turns out in the teaching context, people learn more when you’re enthusiastic. In the job application process, the job applicant who is more enthusiastic, is more likely to get the job. In a sales context, the salesperson who is more enthusiastic is more likely to close a sale, and on and on and on. So here’s the magic in your self-introduction. Instead of ending it with this awkward like, and that’s me. Add one simple sentence about something that you’re looking forward to and say it with enthusiasm. It could be generally about like in 2026. I’m really excited, you know, to be in this new role, or I’m really excited to work with you all. Ideally, when you’re introducing yourself, this three-point self-introduction framework is not a script. It’s purposely just three words, present, past, and future, and you fill in the blanks and you always customize it and personalize it for the person that you’re introducing yourself to. For example, in step three, this future step, you will turn to the person, look them in the eye and say, I’m really looking forward to getting to know you better, or, I’m really looking forward to working with you, or I’m really looking forward to like, as a client, serving your needs, whatever on this account. So, turn it back to them with a smile on your face and enthusiasm. And I have so many stories from podcast listeners and people who have read this article who told me they get caught off guard and asked to introduce themselves. So one of my clients, his name’s Mike, he is a very very successful wealth advisor, and I was coaching him a couple years ago, and he told me that on some Saturday, he was, uh, at the golf course, and one of his very wealthy clients ran into him and said, Hey Mike, nice to see you. Happy Saturday. Oh, by the way, this is my buddy that I was telling you about and he’s looking for a wealth advisor. And Mike was like, oh, come on. It’s my Saturday. I don’t wanna have to sell myself. And then he thought, self-introduction framework. He said, Hey, yeah, my name’s Mike, and I’ve been a wealth advisor. I used to live in Toronto. I moved my family over, blah, blah, blah. And then he goes, he shifted to past, and he said, I’ve been doing this for X number of years. He added a few things for credential and then future. He said, I don’t know if you, if you live around here, but maybe next week we can connect. And the guy said, sure. And five days later, he had a new client, and I was like, oh. So Mike, do I get the commission check? Anyway, he said, Andrea, you saved me. Because he goes, my mind was in a fog. I was trying to drink my coffee. It was Saturday morning, and I just thought, present past future. And he goes, it actually resulted in me signing on a client. So your self-introduction is not always gonna be this impactful, but I’m telling you sometimes it will be when you walk into a job interview and they say, tell us about yourself. Are you kidding? The way you answer that question determines whether you make it to the next round of interviews. Let’s be serious here, right? This framework works for that. So present, past, future. Now, I want you to think about your answers to the three questions, the compliments and the things that light you up, and how the compliments that light you up and your accomplishments from 20, 25 and 10 years before. How can you work these in without, you don’t have to say I’m particularly proud of, although I, I would suggest maybe you could once, right? How do you include positive, unique, and relevant things about yourself in each of these three steps? Here’s the word that I was telling someone yesterday. I’m, I used to say, introduce yourself with confidence. Now I’m saying introduce yourself with purpose. This is an opportunity for you to really reinforce your professional identity in a positive way that’s gonna impact how other people think about you. Okay, now we’re gonna move into. Three benefits of building your brand. And again, I’m gonna map this back to you, and you can continue to take notes here. But these are three, yes, I’m a huge fan. In case you didn’t get the memo of the Power of three, but perhaps not, coincidentally, there are three things that I see and hear all the time from people about the benefits of doing this work, about being yourself, your true self, your whole self, and your best self on purpose. Okay? The first thing is when you do this work. You have the ability to control your narrative. Have you ever noticed that sometimes people will talk about you, and you’re like, ah, that’s not quite right. Or something comes outta your mouth, and you’re like, ah, you know, that’s true, but it’s not the best thing that I would’ve said about myself. When you’ve done this work, you are controlling the words that people use to describe you and how you even think about yourself. You’re not leaving it to chance, and I, I say this to my clients all the time. You can be a very strong B plus, maybe even an A if you don’t do this work, but if you really wanna knock it outta the park, you’re gonna take the time to really define yourself, your true self, your best self, and your whole self purposefully. And then you’re going to use those words to control the narrative. The best example that I have of this is well. Best. I said that so emphatically, didn’t I? I think it’s one of the best stories that I have to illustrate this. I was doing live coaching session very similar to this, and a brave woman raised her hand, and she said, I have a question for you, Andrea. As you can tell by my accent, I’m an Indian immigrant, and I live in the States. I’m a lawye,r and I want my brand to be lawyer, not immigrant. How do I control the narrative around that? And so. I said to her, tell me about yourself, like where do you work? What kind of law? And every, and as she, as she was speaking, I was listening to her accent, and then I, I said to her, so your accent is definitely decipherable. You didn’t have to tell me that you were from India. I could have guessed, but your English is clear. I’m not working hard to understand you. And you know, the research shows that when you have an accent, people might click in that you have an accent, but then as long as you don’t make them work to understand you, it’s fine. It’s not a negative thing, so I wouldn’t worry about it. In fact, you’re thinking of it as a liability. Let’s turn your accent into an asset. And she said, okay, how do I do that? I said, you control the narrative around your accent. You could literally say to people, yes, literally, literally say to people, as you can tell by my accent, I am from India. I have global experience. I have lived and worked in India, and there was one other country, and now the United States. I passed the bar exam in New York, and I’m now a corporate lawyer. I work as a corporate lawyer in Manhattan. And I said, boom, like your accent is actually evidence. And so you are controlling a narrative. So here’s where if you have something about yourself that you aren’t. Maybe that you’re trying to hide like her, she’s trying to hide her accent. You can create a narrative around that thing. Don’t let other people create the narrative for you. I said, you don’t need to correct people if they call you an immigrant, but you can tell them what it means, right? When they say, oh, are you an immigrant? You could say, I’ve lived and worked in three different countries, and I’m a corporate lawyer now in Manhattan, where I leverage that global experience. Boom, drop the mic. Right? You control the narrative. Okay? The second benefit is that working on your brand provides you with direction and focus. So, as I said before, arrogant people think they’re fantastic at everything. I asked you a really, really hard question about what compliments mean the most to you. That answer, I hope, provides you with direction and focus. It doesn’t mean you never work on anything that’s not related to that compliment, goodness knows, but it means I hope that you have the opportunity to raise your hand enthusiastically and volunteer for any kind of project or work that relates to that compliment where you can really flourish.  Okay. So you can see how building your brand provides you with direction and focus. I hear this from my clients all the time. They’re like, I dunno if I should be doing this or that, or this or that. And then we create this list of themes about them that they know are positive, unique, and relevant to them, and then it provides them with direction and focus. The third and last benefit is the one that. I think is the most significant. I wanna really be clear about this, and the reason I keep bringing this up is I get this question often, like frequently all the time. I’m afraid that it’s one thing to write down these things that I’m proud of and these compliments that light me up, but to actually talk about them, and I say, you are not saying that you are good at everything. You are taking the time on purpose. Remember to identify your unique strengths and skills, and there’s nothing arrogant about that. So, identifying the unique things about you that differentiate you compared to everybody else who does what you do. Differentiates you compared to your coworkers, your competitors, maybe even compared to your family and friends. This is gonna boost your confidence. And one of the reasons I love what I do so much is that I am focused on the positive, right? I help people think about this strangely. They’re at work, and they’re thinking about their weaknesses and what they need to work on and their skill deficiencies, and I’m like, hang on a second. What about your strengths? Think about the people you know who are. The most genuinely confident, not arrogant, genuinely confident, and happy and successful in their careers. They are the ones that have doubled down on their unique strengths, right? So that could be you. These are the three benefits of building your brand. It helps you. You can see how they’re kind of intertwined. They’re integrated, but they’re importantly distinct. You’re controlling your narrative. You’re thinking about the words, and you’re reinforcing them with purpose. I’m not saying you’re great at everything. You’re providing yourself with direction and focus, and you’re elevating your confidence because you’ve taken the time to think about these positive accomplishments. The two first two questions and compliments that you get from people, and this is sure to boost your confidence. So that is the main material I guess, that I wanted to cover with this. We’ve covered a lot already. We’ve got three big questions if you wanna send them to me, by the way, on LinkedIn, I, I would love to see what some of them are, three definitions of personal branding to get you thinking about them more deeply. The three point self introduction. Remember, present, past, future, it’s not chronological, and the three benefits of building your brand. So if I were you. I would be thinking, thank you. This is helpful. I feel empowered, but now what?  Wrap-Up & Live Q&A So onto my favorite part of the session, the q and a. First thing before I look in the chat, what brave soul here has a question for me. I would love to hear a question. I know you’ve got questions.  Theo: All right, I’ll go.  AW:  Oh, Theo. Amazing.  Theo: I’m afraid you’ll cold-call someone. So I am curious how you think differently about the future piece and the present. Well, actually, the whole introduction piece, when you’re talking about people who are either currently employed, transitioning, or coming back to employment after a long time out of the workforce. Yeah. I’m curious, like for people who are not 25 on this call.  W: Thank you Theo. Amazing. This is a common question that I get and I think it’s really important. I think if you are gainfully employed, it’s kind of obvious, right? Like present tense is who I am and what I do. Past tense is, you know, the things. Remember, you’re customizing it for the people in the room, right? So you’re thinking, if you’re introducing yourself to a new project team, like what do they need to know about me that I’ve done that’s gonna help me establish credibility, right? And then future is, I’m looking forward to working with you. If you’re in a job interview, I think the best way to answer this might be to just make some scenarios up, right? If you’re in a job interview. You go in and they very often purposely ask you, tell me about yourself. And you don’t know how long to talk, and you don’t even know what the structure is. Yes, you do. It’s present, past,and  future. Hi, my name is Andrea. I am a, or my name is Theo. I am a blah, blah, blah, industry, blah, blah, blah. Function expert. I am. You’re still present tense, right? I am excited to learn about this position, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you say, I’m gonna tell you three things about my experience and my skills. There are many things, many things that I could share with you, but, um, in terms of, you know, sharing things about myself, there are three things. Again, I told you I’m the, I’m a big fan of the power of three, the benefit of saying. At that point, I’m gonna share three things, is they’re not gonna be like, how long is she gonna keep talking? And then you say, the first thing is I have extensive expertise in blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? And then you say, the second thing is, one of the things that I’m most proud of in my career is this. And the third thing that I wanna say is maybe something that’s directly related to the company that you’re interviewing with. Right. And then you say, so those are just three things, and I’m happy to elaborate on those three things. And on any other questions that you have, and then they’re gonna think that you’re just gonna end there, and you say, but I just wanna conclude by saying I’m really excited. You see what I did there? That’s enthusiasm. I’m really excited to learn from you more about this company and more about this role because, based on what I know, I think I’m gonna be a great fit. Boom. That’s. Okay. And if you’re, say in a networking meeting, you’re either thinking about leaving your company or you’ve already lef,t and you’re doing, you know, the classic networking call, uh, or you’re at a networking event, and it’s like, let’s go around and introduce ourselves. That’s not when you’re gonna say three big thing,s and you’re gonna take the mic for that long. But think about what do you wanna be remembered for with the people that are here, right? So you could say, my name is Jane Smith, and I don’t know sales and. Retail sales expert and in technology, blah, blah, whatever it is, right? So you tell them what, tell them so that when they hear about a job in that area, they’re gonna think of you, right? And then you could say, I’m currently seeking a new job in this area. I have 25 years of experience in things that are gonna really help me succeed. And I’m really excited to get to know all of you better. Right? So you, you, you shorten it. You make sure you’re really clear and I do a lot of work with an executive recruiter, and she said after these networking events, you literally remember if they’re lucky, one thing about each person that you met. So make sure the stuff that comes outta your mouth about you is what you want them to remember. Does that help, Theo? I’m guessing you have more specific questions.  Theo: No, that’s amazing.  AW: Okay, good.  Theo: Like to get push on that a little. Thanks.  AW: Yeah, you’re welcome. My pleasure. So Blake has a question in a sales call, would it be better to skip the future remarks and just speak on present and past Blake? Excellent question. No, the future can be one. In fact, most of the time it’s one sentence. So if you’re, for example, you have a call with aa prospective client, and as I do right with my coaching clients, and I’ll say, why don’t you introduce yourself and then I’ll introduce myself. I would never skip the future thing. I’m like, I would love to help you. I even say to people in this call, I’m not gonna hold back. I’m gonna, I’m gonna share with you whatever coaching advice that I have for you, but I’m really looking forward to getting to know you better. Right? So just say one thing. I’m really glad to meet you, or I’m really looking forward to this, or I’m excited about this, or I’m enthusiastic about this. It could be about the person. Ideally. Actually, it is about the person, but sometimes if, if that doesn’t feel quite right, you can make it. The comment about yourself in general, you could say, and I’m really excited about 2026. I feel like, you know, we’ve turned a chapter or whatever, or despite what’s going on in the world, I am really excited about what we’re doing here at work. I hear people saying that a lot right now. Okay. Anyone that wants to raise their hand in this group, I’m gonna answer it first, but otherwise I’m, I’m staying in the chat. Sydney Ann asked to piggyback Blake’s question. In public speaking, we’re taught to establish credibility. Yes. Recency bias and primacy bias. However, in social media, it’s preferred to begin with the hook solving the audience problem. Oh, okay. Sydnee, that’s fantastic. I actually learned this from Sarah Blakely. I did the Sarah Blakely. You know the Spanx billionaire entrepreneur. She has a masterclass where she talks about problem-solving. How you did it, like what the details are. And then step four of the sales pitch is the ask. Right? But you start with the what’s their problem? Same thing on social media. I tell my team this too, when we’re working on my social media posts, it’s not, guess what, Andrea did today? No. It’s actually talking to them about what matters to them. I think for the self-introduction framework, it’s really about. Finding opportunities to use the framework, but you’re not shifting the attention to yourself all the time. In other words, I’m not saying that all social media posts should be present, past future, I’m not saying that at all. And if you’re doing the sales pitch, I hope you first have the opportunity to ask the other person, introduce themselves, and you’re introducing yourself. And then I, I totally agree with you, Sydnee. You start with the other person. You do not want to be. One of these myopic, selfish people who’s always talking about themselves. By the way, did you notice I did not really introduce myself here in this session? I just said, if you want more information about me, here’s where you can go that’s on purpose, because I want this to be about you. So Sydnee, there’s an example, right? You don’t wanna be the person that talks longer than everybody else, and you don’t wanna be the person that everybody thinks is like self-absorbed. So you speak not as long as everybody else. You make sure that the other, like this morning I had a coaching call with someone that I, I’ve been coaching for about six months and he’s like, how was your holiday? And I was like, you go first. Right? Like it’s not all about you. I think Sydnee, the fact that you’re asking that question tells me that you know that. So that’s fantastic. Okay, I’m gonna take one more question. Are there any live questions? Otherwise, I’m gonna go to Jennifer’s question. How do you recommend navigating age bias in high-stakes stakeholder meetings, particularly when they appear younger than you are or actually are early career, while still signaling authority and competence in rooms where age is often equated with credibility? So I get, um. I think it was about a year and a half ago, because I remember it was in the summer. Yeah, it was about a year and a half ago. I was getting this question a lot. I think there was an article that came out in the New York Times about ageism. Ageism is real. So I am 55. I’m gonna tell you that right now I’m 55, and I would say I started feeling ageism probably at around 50. I think it depends on your industry. In some, I talk to 40-year-olds who tell me that they feel like a grandparent, like the wise old grandparent in the office. So it really depends on what industry you’re in, but ageism is real. It is a bias. It apparently is an illegal bias, but it is a bias that definitely exists. So how do you present yourself as having the expertise and maybe years, maybe decades of expertise without having the negative impact of ageism and this sounds really simple, but if you can present yourself in a way where you have energy, then your age. Probably doesn’t matter. It actually, it’s not just energy, right? It’s energy and like current insights. This is an extreme example. If your email is AOL or even Yahoo, I’m gonna say it, as opposed to, you know, a more modern email provider, if you are constantly talking about your grandkids or your listing, and I don’t mean necessarily on your CV or on your LinkedIn, but you’re like. Articulating when I, you know, when I graduated from high school in 1985, and people, you’re, you’re prompting people to do the math, so don’t prompt people to do the math. Do present yourself with energy and in like youthful energy, right? People that are, you see kids running around. I sometimes if I’m walking down the sidewalk and I see a family and it’s like the two adults are like this, and the kids are like running around, right? So have that, you have youthful energy, and you’re current. And then my big thing is like I just told you, I’m 55. Unless you have reason to believe that your actual age is really gonna hurt you, you don’t need to necessarily tell them your age, but you can reference that I clearly, the elephant in the room here is that I’m older than everybody else, but you know what? I have a lot of experience that I’m, I would, and wisdom that I would, the word wisdom will help a lot that I’m happy to share. I think as I’m saying that, it really does, as I said, the beginning, depend on the context of your industry and the audience of people that you’re talking to. I hope that helps. It’s a great question, Jennifer. I do have a podcast episode on ageism that I will, when I post this on LinkedIn, I’ll put a, a link to that episode. So I wanna say thank you. I wanna start actually, by saying Happy New Year again. We can say that at least for this week, right? Happy New Year. Again, thank you so much for being here for this session. I loved your questions, and I hope you found the information that I shared with you on personal branding. To be helpful. It’s a new year. It’s a new you. That doesn’t mean you’re reinventing yourself again. It does mean that you are presenting your true best self. And I want you to really think about your answers, especially to the first three questions that I asked you at the beginning. Thank you so much. Bye. The post New Year, New You… REALLY?!? Personal Brand Training (ep.204) appeared first on Talk About Talk.