#71 - How to Hire (and Get Hired) in Legal Ops

What does it look like when a general counsel doesn’t just adopt AI—but rewires her entire legal function around it? In this episode, Mary O’Carroll sits down with Shannon Thyme Klinger, Chief Legal Officer at Moderna and President of Moderna Charitable Foundation. Named by the Financial Times as one of the most innovative GCs of the past two decades, Shannon is reshaping what it means to lead a legal team—and a profession—through profound change. In this episode: “AI won’t replace lawyers, but…” Shannon lays out her bold vision: why lawyers who don’t harness AI may get left behind—and how her team at Moderna is using GPTs, reasoning models, and agents to transform everything from contracts to compliance. From Skepticism to Buy-In: How Shannon got a room full of reluctant legal leaders to see AI’s potential—by showing, not telling. The Self-Service Revolution: Why Moderna’s business teams now use AI-powered contract tools to answer 90% of their questions—freeing legal to focus on higher-value work. Fearless Experimentation: The mindset shift that changed everything: fail fast, learn faster. Beyond Legal: Why Shannon sees legal ops as a strategic engine, not a back-office function—and how her team is training other departments to work smarter with AI. The Big Picture: Shannon’s take on the future of legal—what’s at risk, what needs to change, and why it’s time for GCs and law firms to rewrite the playbook. If you’ve ever wondered what real legal transformation looks like—led from the top, grounded in purpose, and driven by tech—this conversation is your blueprint. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts

In this episode, Mary O’Carroll reunites with Anne Kerwin Payne of Kerwin Associates to dig into one of the most misunderstood yet high-stakes roles in legal: in-house legal operations. If you’re a GC hiring for legal ops—or a candidate trying to land that elusive “head of legal ops” title—this one’s for you. Anne brings decades of legal recruiting insight, a front-row seat to the evolution of the legal ops role, and a refreshingly candid take on what works (and what definitely doesn’t). In this episode: What Even Is This Job? Why the role of legal ops is still hard to define—and how that creates hiring gridlock on both sides. The Strategic Leap: What it really takes to go from #2 legal ops to department lead—and why most people underestimate the soft skills required. Hiring Mistakes GCs Make: From hiring too junior to skipping overqualified candidates out of fear, Anne shares the missteps she sees most often. The Resume Trap: How over-engineered CVs, AI-generated cover letters, and fuzzy job histories are derailing great candidates. Title Chasers vs. Builders: A frank conversation about compensation, career moves, and the difference between a “job” mindset and a long-term career play. The GC-Legal Ops Chemistry Test: Why your first hire in legal ops needs to be more than a taskmaster—and how to find a true partner. Whether you're trying to land your first legal ops role, move up the ladder, or finally hire the right partner for your legal team—this episode lays it all out. Mary and Anne cut through the noise with practical guidance and stories that’ll help you make smarter moves in a role that’s only getting more critical. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts

When legal ops meets the AI data revolution, what does it actually look like on the ground? In this episode, Mary O’Carroll sits down with Aaron Bromagem, Head of Legal Operations at Snowflake, to talk about what it means to lead legal ops inside one of the top AI and data companies—and why the role today is barely recognizable from just a few years ago. Aaron shares how his team is navigating breakneck change, massive expectations from leadership, and a vendor landscape that’s expanding faster than anyone can track. If you’ve ever felt like your strategy gets outdated before you even finish writing it down, this one’s for you. In this episode: Navigating Uncertainty: Aaron opens up about what it’s like to lead in an environment where priorities shift every quarter—and why nimbleness beats planning. GCs as Technologists: The modern general counsel is demanding more data, faster delivery, and deeper insights. Here’s what that means for legal ops. The Rise of the Legal Data Model: How Snowflake built a system to turn legal operations data into reliable enterprise intelligence—and why it’s powering product features now. Prompt Engineering vs. Agent Workflows: As AI evolves, are we moving from writing prompts to building complex legal workflows powered by agents? The Vendor Maze: Why every legal tech vendor says the same thing—and how Aaron separates the useful from the fluff. A New Profile for Legal Ops: Technical backgrounds, data fluency, and an operations-first mindset—Aaron and Mary discuss how the ideal candidate is changing. If you’re in legal ops and feel like you’re barely keeping up with the pace of change, you’re not alone. But as Aaron shows, with the right mindset and tools, there’s huge opportunity in the chaos. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts

Years before legal tech hit the mainstream, Jake Saper was already placing bets. As a General Partner at Emergence Capital, Jake helped fund foundational legal tech startups like Ironclad and SimpleLegal—long before most VCs would touch the sector. In this episode, Mary sits down with Jake to unpack his early insights and where he sees the industry heading next. From CLM to AI agents, they explore what’s real, what’s hype, and what buyers and founders should really be paying attention to. Jake isn’t just a savvy investor—he’s a pattern recognizer who sees how AI, pricing models, and workflow orchestration are reshaping not only software but the very structure of legal services. In this episode: Why Legal Was an Early Bet Jake shares why legal’s inefficiencies and high-value work made it an obvious investment target, even before AI and legal ops were mainstream. The Rise (and Risk) of Legal AI From hallucinating tools to real-world adoption challenges, Jake and Mary dissect the current state of AI in legal—and why the billable hour is squarely in the crosshairs. From Tools to Outcomes A candid look at how law firms must overhaul their business models to align with AI-driven efficiencies—and what that means for buyers and vendors alike. “CLM is Dead”? Not So Fast. Jake unpacks why great SaaS isn’t going away anytime soon, despite the buzz around AI agents and “vibe coding.” Hint: trust, workflow, and guarantees still matter. How to Vet Startups in the AI Gold Rush In an era of fast-moving tech and 5-person billion-dollar teams, Jake outlines how to evaluate early-stage legal AI companies: speed, founder authenticity, and value creation over vanity metrics. A Billion-Dollar Perspective Emergence Capital’s latest fund doubles down on the future of B2B SaaS. Jake shares where he’s placing bets—and why job-to-be-done is still the framework that matters most. Whether you're leading a law firm, investing in legal tech, or trying to future-proof your team, this episode is a crash course in thinking strategically about what’s next. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts