Kyle Daigle - Scaling Up with AI: A New Era of Code Maintenance

In this captivating episode of the Maintainable Software Podcast, host Robby Russell delves deep with Esther Olatunde, Senior Product Engineer at Intercom, into the realms of software maintenance, technical debt, and the impact of AI on software development. The discussion kicks off with Esther's insights on what constitutes well-maintained software, emphasizing the importance of quality from both the user's and developer's perspectives. They explore how ease of onboarding for new developers and the ability to swiftly navigate codebases significantly contribute to a project's maintainability.The conversation then shifts towards the nuances of managing technical debt, with Esther sharing her evolved understanding of the term over her career. From her early days in startups to her current role at Intercom, she provides a rich perspective on the challenges and strategies for advocating maintenance work within diverse organizational sizes. This episode takes an intriguing turn as Robby and Esther speculate on the future of software engineering in the age of AI, pondering how tools like GitHub Copilot could redefine the developer's role.Robby probes into the potential of AI in accelerating development processes and the implications for software quality and team dynamics. They also touch upon the critical aspect of advocating for maintenance tasks to non-developers, underscoring the long-term benefits over immediate functionality gains. The episode is peppered with practical advice for engineers at all levels, encouraging them to persistently champion the cause of addressing technical debt for healthier codebases.As a bonus, Esther recommends a non-technical yet profoundly relevant book, "Built" by Tony Fadell, which offers insights into product development and innovation, further enriching the discussion with broader perspectives on creating meaningful and lasting technology. Dive into this episode for a thorough exploration of the intricacies of software maintenance, the evolving landscape of software development, and how to navigate the challenges of technical debt, all through the lens of an experienced software engineer at the forefront of the industry.Helpful Links:Esther's WebsiteEsther on LinkedInEsther on GitHubIntercomGitHub Copilot"Built" by Tony FadellThanks to Our Sponsor!Turn hours of debugging into just minutes! AppSignal is a performance monitoring and error tracking tool designed for Ruby, Elixir, Python, Node.js, Javascript, and soon, other frameworks. It offers six powerful features with one simple interface, providing developers with real-time insights into the performance and health of web applications. Keep your coding cool and error-free, one line at a time! Check them out! Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsOvercastSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

Starting off, Robbie Russell and Robbie Wagner bonding over the complexities of their names in the coffee queue.They dive into the essence of maintainable software, debating the importance of recent commits and the dangers of a single-contributor project.Tech debt, the ever-looming shadow over software development, gets a moment in the spotlight. They share a laugh over buying GitHub stars as a measure of project health.Wagner's approach to tackling tech debt without permission is both rebellious and pragmatic, advocating for quality and refactoring 'on-the-go'.The conversation shifts to the Scout rule in software maintenance, and how constant vigilance is key to overcoming tech debt fatigue.Discussions around Ember.js, its community, and the evolution of front-end development light up the conversation.The narrative takes a turn as they explore automating the mundane, with ESLint, Prettier, and CI tools like Dependabot starring as the unsung heroes in the quest for quality.They touch upon the challenges of maintaining a balance between new features and tech debt, with Wagner emphasizing the sneaky art of integrating tech debt fixes into regular work.Robbie Wagner shares his love for rye whiskey, introducing listeners to his favorite brands and distilleries.Wrapping up, they delve into the world of podcasts, discussing the uniqueness of "Whiskey, Web and Whatnot" and how it blends technical discussions with personal stories and whiskey.Helpful Links:Check out Whiskey, Web and Whatnot for more episodes and whiskey recommendations!Thanks to Our Sponsor!Turn hours of debugging into just minutes! AppSignal is a performance monitoring and error tracking tool designed for Ruby, Elixir, Python, Node.js, Javascript, and soon, other frameworks. It offers six powerful features with one simple interface, providing developers with real-time insights into the performance and health of web applications. Keep your coding cool and error-free, one line at a time! Check them out! Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsOvercastSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

In the latest episode of Maintainable, Robby Russell has a fascinating conversation with Irina Nazarova, the CEO of Evil Martians, a name that resonates with innovation and bold strides in the software development world. They dive deep into what it takes to maintain not just code, but also the delicate balance between rapid development and long-term sustainability in the ever-evolving startup landscape.Irina shares her unique perspective on the common traits of well-maintained software, stressing the importance of adaptability and the role of technical debt at different stages of a company's growth. With a background rich in pushing the boundaries of what's possible in software consultancy, she offers a fresh take on commercializing open-source projects, nurturing innovation within the team, and the significance of building genuine relationships with clients.Listeners will get a glimpse into the challenges and triumphs of running a software consultancy that dares to dream big. From the intricacies of investing in internal projects to the philosophy behind fostering a culture of innovation and respect, this episode is a goldmine of insights for anyone curious about the intersection of consultancy work and product development.Don't miss out on this engaging discussion that reveals the byproducts of passion, dedication, and a relentless pursuit of excellence in the software industry. Check out the episode and let us know your thoughts!Book Recommendations:The Challenger SaleHelpful Links:Evil MartiansIrina on LinkedInIrina on TwitterAnyCableLayered Design for Ruby on Rails Applications by Vladimir DementyevThanks to Our Sponsor!Turn hours of debugging into just minutes! AppSignal is a performance monitoring and error tracking tool designed for Ruby, Elixir, Python, Node.js, Javascript, and soon, other frameworks. It offers six powerful features with one simple interface, providing developers with real-time insights into the performance and health of web applications. Keep your coding cool and error-free, one line at a time! Check them out! Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsOvercastSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

Robby has a chat with Kyle Daigle, the Chief Operating Officer at GitHub. They dive into the evolution of software development from the perspective of maintaining and scaling software within large organizations like GitHub. Kyle talks about the importance of simplicity and readability in code over complexity, advocating for well-named variables and straightforward codebases to enhance maintainability.He reflects on his journey from a young developer to understanding the value of well-maintained software, noting the balance between creativity in naming and the necessity for clarity as projects and teams grow. The conversation also covers the approach to technical debt, highlighting that not all old code is debt, but rather it depends on whether it hinders progress. Additionally, they explore the impact of AI tools like GitHub Copilot on software development, suggesting that these tools can aid in quicker code reviews and foster higher-level problem-solving discussions among developers. Stay tuned to learn more.Book Recommendations:Turn The Ship Around By David MarquetHelpful Links:Githubkdaigle @ githubThanks to Our Sponsor!Turn hours of debugging into just minutes! AppSignal is a performance monitoring and error tracking tool designed for Ruby, Elixir, Python, Node.js, Javascript, and soon, other frameworks. It offers six powerful features with one simple interface, providing developers with real-time insights into the performance and health of web applications. Keep your coding cool and error-free, one line at a time! Check them out! Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsOvercastSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

Robby speaks to the Senior Software Engineer at Perchwell, Jon Moniaci. They discuss the delicate balance between innovation and stability in software development. Jon emphasizes the importance of fostering an environment where engineers can experiment without fear, advocating for a culture of defensive programming to mitigate the fear of breaking things in production. He shares insights from his experiences, including the challenges of working with legacy code and the importance of testing and QA processes. He also talks about the value of considering software pieces as potential microservices to encourage maintainability and flexibility, even if full microservice architecture isn't implemented. This approach, Jon suggests, allows for more sustainable development practices, ultimately leading to more resilient and adaptable software systems. Tune in for that and so much more!Book Recommendations:Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari The End of Everything (Astrophysically Speaking) by Katie MackHelpful Links:WebsiteJon on LinkedInPerchwellThanks to Our Sponsor!Turn hours of debugging into just minutes! AppSignal is a performance monitoring and error tracking tool designed for Ruby, Elixir, Python, Node.js, Javascript, and soon, other frameworks. It offers six powerful features with one simple interface, providing developers with real-time insights into the performance and health of web applications. Keep your coding cool and error-free, one line at a time! Check them out! Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsOvercastSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

Robby has a candid chat with Chad Fowler, the General Partner & CTO at BlueYard Capital. They delve into the nuances of software maintenance, the evolution and challenges of managing software projects, and insights from Chad's tenure as CTO of Wunderlist. They discuss the importance of building software in small, manageable pieces to facilitate easy updates or replacements, the counterintuitive perspective on unit testing's impact on maintainability, and strategies for keeping software up-to-date by redeploying to new platforms.Additionally, Chad shares his thoughts on the current industry layoff trends, emphasizing the value of adaptability and resilience. The conversation also touches on the relevance of mentoring in the tech industry and the potential implications of AI and large language models on software engineering careers. Chad's philosophy on software development, emphasizing pragmatism, adaptability, and the continuous reevaluation of problems to make them smaller and more manageable, permeates the discussion.Book Recommendations:The E-myth Revisited by Michael E. GerberZen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert M. PirsigHelpful Links:WunderlistThe Passionate Programmer by Chad FowlerChad on X/TwitterChad on LinkedInThe Privacy PodcastBlueYard CapitalThanks to Our Sponsor!Turn hours of debugging into just minutes! AppSignal is a performance monitoring and error tracking tool designed for Ruby, Elixir, Python, Node.js, Javascript, and soon, other frameworks. It offers six powerful features with one simple interface, providing developers with real-time insights into the performance and health of web applications. Keep your coding cool and error-free, one line at a time! Check them out! Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsOvercastSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

Robby has a conversation with John Nunemaker, the Owner at "Box Out Sports" and "Fewer & Faster". They dive into the basics of maintaining software projects, highlighting the crucial importance of keeping dependencies and versions up to date. John shares his wealth of experience from his time at GitHub, shedding light on the delicate balance between exploring new architecture patterns and adhering to existing ones. They explore practical approaches to software challenges, emphasizing tools like Dependabot for efficient dependency management and the significance of evaluating the potential risks associated with changes in dependencies. John also provides valuable insights into the release of open source libraries, emphasizing the need for clear communication of expectations from the community and personal visions for the project. The discussion spans topics ranging from navigating the challenges of legacy code reviews to the gratification derived from seeking and improving the darker corners of a codebase. The episode culminates with a discussion on personal satisfaction in project selection and the art of effectively marketing open source projects.In essence, this episode of Maintainable not only unveils the intricacies of maintaining software projects but also offers practical wisdom on navigating challenges related to dependencies, legacy code, and personal project satisfaction. Listeners gain valuable insights into the strategic use of tools, the thoughtful release of open source projects, and the importance of continual improvement in the ever-evolving landscape of software development. If you’re a software engineer seeking tangible approaches to enhance the maintainability of your projects, then don’t miss this episode. Stay tuned!Book Recommendations:Hell Yeah or No: What's Worth Doing by Derek DiversHelpful Links:Flipper RubygemFlipper CloudDon't Repeat Yourself, Repeat Others Slidedeck From RailsConf 2010The World Runs on Bad Software by Brandon KeepersThanks to Our Sponsor!Turn hours of debugging into just minutes! AppSignal is a performance monitoring and error tracking tool designed for Ruby, Elixir, Python, Node.js, Javascript, and soon, other frameworks. It offers six powerful features with one simple interface, providing developers with real-time insights into the performance and health of web applications. Keep your coding cool and error-free, one line at a time! Check them out! Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsOvercastSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

Robby has a conversation with Jemma Issroff, a Senior Software Engineer, speaker and the author of the book, “Ruby Garbage Collection in Under Two Hours” They delve into the intricacies of well-maintained software, and Jemma brings her wealth of experience, particularly from her involvement in Prism, a notable rewrite of the Ruby parser. The duo explores the contrasting dynamics of maintaining software in C versus Ruby, shedding light on the nuanced challenges and advantages each presents. As the conversation unfolds, they draw intriguing parallels between their approaches to utilizing advanced tools like ChatGPT and CoPilot in their respective workflows. Jemma also offers a sneak peek into her upcoming transition into the realm of artificial intelligence, adding a fascinating layer to the dialogue. Beyond the tech talk, the episode takes an unexpected turn as the two bond over their shared affection for running in the rain and Jemma recounts her enriching experience at Recurse, a unique software programmers retreat. This episode is a captivating blend of technical expertise and personal anecdotes where rain-soaked runs and programming retreats add unexpected flavors to the conversation. Tune in for a unique exploration of the tech landscape that will definitely leave you inspired and informed.Book Recommendations:Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel KahnemanHelpful Links:Prism, a Ruby parserShopifyAnthrop\cJemma.devRecurse CenterThanks to Our Sponsor!Turn hours of debugging into just minutes! AppSignal is a performance monitoring and error tracking tool designed for Ruby, Elixir, Python, Node.js, Javascript, and soon, other frameworks. It offers six powerful features with one simple interface, providing developers with real-time insights into the performance and health of web applications. Keep your coding cool and error-free, one line at a time! Check them out! Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsOvercastSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

Robby has a chat with the Software Development Team Lead at Thoughtbot, Jeanine Soterwood. Unraveling the intricacies of Ruby on Rails, they explore the often overlooked importance of keeping apps up-to-date and maintaining a robust test suite. The conversation weaves through the delicate balance between enticing features and the long-term needs of software maintenance, shedding light on the aspects clients may not find thrilling.Drawing from their experiences in the consulting realm, Robby and Jeanine share valuable insights on being a commendable guest in another team's code base. From deciphering a client's process and team culture to navigating the challenge of conveying that software is an ever-evolving entity, the episode unfolds with practical tips. The duo advocates for proposing experiments over permanent decisions, emphasizing the art of gaining buy-in. Additionally, they tackle the nuances of pairing with junior developers and unravel Jeanine's journey of embracing non-DRY tests. Wrapping up with a deep dive into managing a technical debt backlog and Jeanine's impactful work on Ruby for Good projects, this episode will be a treasure trove for any software engineer who is navigating the elusive path of effective project maintenance.Book Recommendations:A Little Life by Hanya YanagiharaHelpful Links:Jeanine on LinkedInThougthbotThe Case for WET TestsThanks to Our Sponsor!Turn hours of debugging into just minutes! AppSignal is a performance monitoring and error tracking tool designed for Ruby, Elixir, Python, Node.js, Javascript, and soon, other frameworks. It offers six powerful features with one simple interface, providing developers with real-time insights into the performance and health of web applications. Keep your coding cool and error-free, one line at a time! Check them out! Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsOvercastSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

Robby engages with independent consultant and author, Andrew Atkinson, delving into the intricate world of software development and database maintenance. The duo kicks off with a profound exploration of the importance of swift and intuitive change management in software, unraveling the key traits that transform a database into a well-maintained powerhouse. From securing data to cleaning up legacy information, they shed light on the often-neglected aspects that can significantly enhance a software engineer's efficiency.As the conversation flows, Andrew unveils the secrets behind his latest book, "High Performance PostgreSQL for Rails," tracing its origins from an internal slide deck to a valuable resource for developers beyond the Rails framework. The episode explores the nuanced process of "Unshipping," as Andrew dissects Mixpanel's article, offering a roadmap for deprecating features without disappointing customers. The episode is a treasure trove of insights, covering everything from optimizing database performance with rules to navigating the tricky terrain of advocating for codebase improvements in the face of reluctant stakeholders. Don't miss out on this dynamic exchange of ideas; tune in to the episode now for an enlightening journey through the realms of software development and database management.Book Recommendations:Staff Engineer: Leadership Beyond the Management Track By Will LarsonHelpful Links:Mixpanel: The art of removing features and productsOrder High Performance PostgreSQL for Rails (USE PROMO CODE: Maintainable for 35% off!)Coverbandhttps://andyatkinson.com/https://github.com/andyatkinsonhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/andyatkinsonThanks to Our Sponsor!Turn hours of debugging into just minutes! AppSignal is a performance monitoring and error tracking tool designed for Ruby, Elixir, Python, Node.js, Javascript, and soon, other frameworks. It offers six powerful features with one simple interface, providing developers with real-time insights into the performance and health of web applications. Keep your coding cool and error-free, one line at a time! Check them out! Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsOvercastSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.