Interview: Rory Sutherland, author of Alchemy, on why irrational ideas work

In this episode, we chat with Phil Graves, author of Consumerology. As a leading voice on the flaws of traditional market research, he explains why what customers say often differs from what they do. He also highlights the mechanisms behind purchase decisions and explores how behavioral science offers a more reliable lens for understanding real consumer behavior. 

In this episode we sit down with Rory Sutherland, author of Alchemy. As one of advertising’s most original thinkers, he makes the case for embracing irrationality in marketing, argues why logic is overrated and explains how small shifts can lead to big behavioral effects. 

In this episode we explore how behavioral science can be applied to media planning. We discuss the fundamental attribution error and why this suggests brands should spend less time thinking about target audiences and more time thinking about target contexts. We then look at some specific moments that brands can target – such as when people are in a good mood or when their age ends in nine.

In this episode, we look at the story of Five Guys and how they used behavioral science to become one of the most successful brands in the ‘better burger’ category. We identify some of the secrets to their success such as ending the experience on a high, harnessing the illusion of effort by letting dinners see into the kitchen and - perhaps most importantly of all – harnessing the power of simplicity!

In this episode we speak with Steve Martin, co-author of Yes! 60 secrets from the science of persuasion which has sold over 1.5 m million copies. We talk to Steve about his latest work on the messenger effect and the eight traits that make a messenger influential. 

In this episode, we explore how Oatly became a billion-dollar brand by using behavioral science in clever, unexpected ways. We unpack how the launch of their Barista Edition—crafted specifically for coffee shops—tapped into the Messenger Effect, where who delivers a message matters as much as what is said. Along the way, we break down what makes a messenger truly persuasive—and how your brand can apply the same principles to win trust and grow.

In this episode we speak with Adam Ferrier, founder of Australian ad agency, Thinkerbell. Adam is the author of The Advertising Effect, one of the best books on applying behavioral science to advertising. On the podcast he talks about some of the most effective Australian campaigns of the last few years and why listening to your customer creates bland advertising.

Everlane’s success has partly been driven by differentiating themselves from the rest of the fashion industry. Crucially they have reframed the competition as behaving unfairly. In this episode we look at a series of behavioral science experiments that show brands can disrupt consumer apathy if they position the competition as having behaved unfairly. We cover a range of studies by Werner Guth, Sally Blount and Richard Thaler. Most importantly we focus on the practical marketing applications. 

Katy Milkman has described Ayelet Fishbach as the foremost expert on motivation in the world. In this episode we speak to Ayelet about her work and how marketers can harness it to change the behavior of their users. In a wide ranging conversation we discuss Ayelet’s research on variable rewards, the goal dilution effect and the problem with setting avoidance goals. 

GEICO have created some of the most effective US advertising in recent years. The GEICO gecko is one of the most popular characters in advertising. But what makes him so memorable? In this episode we discuss Ian Begg’s research into concreteness which showed that people are much better at remembering visualisable things compared to abstract concepts. We argue that GEICO’s success has been driven by creating a brand mascot that physically embodies their strengths rather than trying to convey those abstract ideals directly.