Jon Mest (ChatRank): AI Visibility, “SEO Isn’t Dead”, and Bootstrapping a New Search Channel

AI search is changing how buyers discover products. But most founders are either ignoring it, or getting sold misinformation.In this episode, Jon Mest (https://chatrank.ai/ and https://justreachout.io/) breaks down what actually drives “AI visibility” and how he’s building two bootstrapped companies in a market that’s shifting weekly.We get into the real execution behind:Why “pump out 1,000 blog posts” is bad strategy in AI searchWhat AI models struggle with (and the on-page fixes that matter right now)The off-page signals that influence AI recommendations (reviews, Reddit, YouTube, real human sentiment)How Jon sells a $500/mo product without spray-and-pray outboundPartnerships vs affiliates, what worked and what completely failed (PartnerStack experiment)Why podcasts are underrated for both backlinks and AI citationsJon’s “rotate AI tools weekly” habit to stay sharp across modelsWhy bootstrapping beats VC for most SaaS right now (and when he’d reconsider)If you’re a SaaS founder trying to understand what’s real in AI search, this one will save you time and mistakes.🏟️ The ArenaThe Arena is a private Skool community for SaaS founders who are actively building and selling. I share real-time decisions, experiments, and assets as I use them while growing a bootstrapped SaaS.No theory. No polish. Just execution.Learn more at: https://www.skool.com/the-arena/Chapters / Timestamps00:00 Intro and Jon’s background (Wall Street to founder)01:25 Just Reach Out vs ChatRank and how they overlap03:37 Team setup, founder roles, and bootstrapping mindset06:00 Who they sell to and why price point doesn’t equal SMB07:10 ChatRank ICP and how it shifted as AI went mainstream08:44 How to pick segments without getting stuck in a niche trap10:17 Sales motion: founder-led calls, targeted outbound, case studies13:10 Pricing reality at $500/mo and what buyers will actually pay for15:24 Qualifying leads while still learning early-stage signals16:12 Two customer examples that reshaped their ICP18:49 Partner channel strategy and why it works for bootstrappers21:41 Affiliates vs white-label vs rev share (how they structure it)22:25 Why “affiliate programs” mostly don’t work anymore25:05 SEO vs “AI visibility” and what’s changed26:52 Biggest misinformation Jon sees about AI search30:51 On-page basics that matter because AI crawlers are still bad32:33 “Black box” question: how they reverse-engineer LLM behavior36:10 One-hour-a-week marketing and the human-in-the-loop approach38:25 AI search market reality: Google AI Overviews and citations41:16 Rotating ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini weekly as a team habit44:18 Agents and automation, what they actually use day-to-day47:45 Rebuilding “Gong” internally with Gemini + NotebookLM52:00 Why podcasts work: ICP density, backlinks, and AI citations57:15 Attribution, tracking, and why AI traffic converts higher01:01:20 Bootstrapping vs VC and why the VC model feels broken01:06:18 Rapid change, execution speed, and closing thoughts

Brad Mills is a Bitcoin OG (in since 2011), entrepreneur, and angel investor. In this episode, we talk about what it actually looks like to think long-term in Bitcoin, how he invests without selling, and why “AI agents + Bitcoin” might be the first truly mainstream crypto use case.We get into real founder stuff too: leadership failures, scaling mistakes, decision fatigue, and how Brad rebuilt his habits using a “proof of work” mindset.What we cover:Brad’s first “business” at 8 years old, and the Facebook app that hit massive scaleThe moment he realized “buy and hold Bitcoin” outperformed his highest-effort businessesBorrowing against Bitcoin: why LTV discipline matters and how people get wiped outWhy gold confiscation (6102) is not the same risk model as Bitcoin custody todayQuantum risk: what’s real, what’s noise, and how upgrades likely happenWhy AI agents choosing Bitcoin is a bigger deal than retail adoption“Citadel mind and body”: applying Bitcoin-style consistency to health and relationshipsBooks that actually changed his executionChapters / Timestamps00:00 Intro, “Bitcoin is up 3x since 2022”01:40 Brad’s first business at 8 years old04:00 Growing up in poverty, learning to hustle04:30 Hacky sack business and early entrepreneurship05:40 “How do I make money online?” and getting scammed06:15 The Facebook “Roll Up The Rim” app and the cease & desist07:10 Monetization at scale, then getting crowded out08:40 Hiring 17 people, leadership reality check11:55 When Bitcoin outperformed the entire company12:10 Brad’s first Bitcoin in 2011 and the early volatility lessons15:00 Failed mining partnership and why he stopped “doing too much”19:00 Trading strategy vs just holding Bitcoin21:05 Becoming an angel investor (Bitcoin-only)21:45 Borrowing against Bitcoin, loans, and LTV discipline28:15 Interest rates and banks eventually offering BTC loans30:00 Canada, optionality, and the sovereign individual thesis33:00 Gold confiscation (6102) and why it’s often misunderstood36:05 Self-custody vs “in the bank vault” risk38:45 Capital controls and how Bitcoin changes the game41:30 Epstein/Bitcoin origin claims and why decentralization makes it irrelevant45:20 This downturn: what feels different this cycle50:55 Is quantum Bitcoin’s biggest risk?52:00 Quantum soft fork talk + Saylor’s quantum task force56:10 “Quantum treasure hunt” and lost coins as a volatility catalyst01:00:25 Portfolio updates, Maple private AI compute, AnchorWatch insurance01:02:15 Square/Cash App Bitcoin payments and orange-pilling merchants01:03:45 AI agents using Bitcoin as default money01:10:15 OpenClaw as “translator” for non-technical builders01:12:30 CLAWI.AI, Mac mini vs VPS setups01:12:40 Token burn reality ($150–$200/day)01:13:45 “Citadel mind and body” and proof-of-work habits01:23:00 Book recs: Buy Back Your Time, The Big Leap, If the Buddha Married01:24:35 WrapThe Arena The Arena is a private Skool community for SaaS founders who are actively building and selling. I share real-time decisions, experiments, and assets as I use them while growing a bootstrapped SaaS.No theory. No polish. Just execution.Learn more at: https://www.skool.com/the-arena/

Kyle Hosick spent 25 years building a successful agency business. Referral-only. No ads. No hype.Then he did something most operators never do.He stopped hiding his side projects and went all in on building a brand in public.In this episode, Kyle breaks down the real path from agency stability to New York Fashion Week, and what actually changed when he removed fear and stopped playing defense.We get into:Why “being more yourself” can be the ultimate growth strategyHow Kyle uses a “25 right decisions in the right order” framework to build momentumWhen patience is a competitive advantage (and when speed still matters)How he views AI as leverage without turning everything into generic slopWhat it takes to get into retail, manufacture overseas, and prepare for celebrity seedingHow a strong operator plus a strong distribution partner can sell out a cohort fastThis is not a pivot story.It’s an expansion story about conviction, restraint, and stacking the right decisions in the right order.The ArenaThe Arena is a private Skool community for SaaS founders who are actively building and selling. I share real-time decisions, experiments, and assets as I use them while growing a bootstrapped SaaS.No theory. No polish. Just execution.Learn more at: https://www.skool.com/the-arena/Chapters / Timestamps00:00 Why Kyle feels “on a run”02:00 The hidden cost of playing it safe as an agency owner05:00 25 years of agency lessons that still matter08:45 The fear of public failure and what changed12:30 The Revenue Brand spark and acting fast17:00 Patience as a competitive advantage22:00 AI, leverage, and staying human27:00 Building a premium brand without rushing sales32:00 Manufacturing decisions and quality control37:00 Retail traction and brand credibility42:00 Getting invited to New York Fashion Week47:00 Why most runs end early52:00 Kyle’s billboard message to founders

Six years after his first appearance on Founder Views, Luca is back with the real story of how AI forced a full business model and go-to-market shift.Customerly went from a seat-based, product-led support platform for small SaaS teams to an AI-first customer service engine selling into mid-market and enterprise, where volume and ROI are obvious.In this episode we get into:The AI pivot: why they refused to build “old-school chatbots,” and how ChatGPT changed what was possibleQuality metrics that matter: error rate, confidence thresholds, escalation triggers, and why AI CSAT can be higher than humansWhat actually trains a good AI agent: knowledge base structure, what not to upload, and how hallucinations happen in the real worldAutomation outcomes: average ticket closure rates, what drives 80%+ vs 40–50%, and how teams improve over timeEnterprise GTM shift: moving from product-led to sales-led, filtering signups, longer cycles, bigger ACVOutbound reality: why the agency failed, what changed when they built outbound internally, and the tooling stack (Clay, Apollo, Lemlist, Pipedrive)Founder sales lessons: Challenger Sale thinking and why founders still need to own sales earlyThe Arena The Arena is a private Skool community for SaaS founders who are actively building and selling. I share real-time decisions, experiments, and assets as I use them while growing a bootstrapped SaaS.No theory. No polish. Just execution.Learn more at: https://www.skool.com/the-arena/Chapters / Timestamps00:00 – Reunion after 6 years and what changed (COVID + AI era)01:27 – Luca intro: what Customersly does today02:30 – From $100K ARR to near $1M and why pricing changed05:08 – “Chatbots are shit”: how they built AI without the bad UX07:10 – Under 1% error rate and reducing hallucinations09:52 – Grounded AI, intents, and automating beyond FAQs11:09 – Closure rate benchmarks and what “good” looks like16:41 – How to pick an AI support tool that actually works18:20 – Training mistakes: transcripts, clutter, and marketing banners causing hallucinations20:46 – Confidence thresholds and escalation as a feedback loop22:48 – How long it takes to move from 45% to 70–80% automation24:34 – Should AI learn from your inbox? Pros, risks, and why they avoid it29:41 – Implementation timelines: small teams vs enterprise rollouts31:38 – Why AI CSAT can beat humans (speed wins)35:46 – Escalation rules: human request, sentiment, low confidence, missing info37:21 – Going enterprise: ARPU jump and sales-led reality41:02 – Outbound experiment: agency failure and building it internally43:32 – LinkedIn ads + Clay targeting + the masterclass lead magnet49:25 – Challenger Sale and shifting the conversation53:20 – Founder lesson: why you can’t outsource what you haven’t done58:54 – Outbound stack: Clay, Apollo, Lemlist, Sales Nav, Pipedrive01:05:12 – 2026 vision and wrap

How do you take a niche SaaS product from zero to $150k MRR in under two years — without venture capital?In this episode of Founder Views, Kosta Panagoulias sits down with Nadav Boaz, co-founder of VoiceDrop, to break down exactly how they scaled fast by combining cold email mastery, SEO execution, and ruthless operational discipline.This isn’t theory. Nadav shares what actually worked — and what didn’t — across dozens of past businesses before VoiceDrop finally clicked.We cover:How VoiceDrop reached $150k MRR with a lean, remote teamThe exact 3 growth channels they double down on (and why)How cold email is used strategically — not spammySEO tactics that helped them rank #1 and show up in AI searchWhy pre-authorizing trial users increased conversions from 12% → 50%Managing churn in a high-ticket SaaSWhy “usage” matters more than loginsLessons from running (and failing) dozens of businesses before successIf you’re a SaaS founder focused on execution, leverage, and real growth, this episode delivers.Chapters / Timestamps00:00 – Why VoiceDrop caught Kosta’s attention02:00 – What VoiceDrop does (ringless voicemail explained)04:00 – Team size, remote setup, and founder roles07:00 – Using past businesses as leverage for new SaaS launches10:20 – The 3 growth pillars: SEO, cold email, Google Ads13:30 – SEO execution: keywords, authority, and SOPs with VAs16:00 – Ranking in AI search (ChatGPT, Gemini, etc.)18:10 – Cold email infrastructure that actually works22:00 – Targeting, segmentation, and ARPU strategy26:00 – When SEO overtook outbound as the #1 channel27:00 – Boosting trial-to-paid conversion to 50%30:00 – Pre-authorization: filtering tire-kickers32:00 – Human vs product-led conversions36:00 – Using AI inside the product (voice cloning, scripts)39:00 – AI for outbound replies and internal leverage41:30 – Scaling fast without burning out as a founder45:30 – Customer support, tooling, and cost control50:00 – Managing churn in a high-ticket SaaS53:30 – The single metric Nadav watches daily54:20 – Favorite business book & lifestyle choices56:20 – One billboard lesson for SaaS founders 👉 Hard Knock SaaS is a practical video series for SaaS founders who want real-world playbooks — not theory. Built from my experience bootstrapping, scaling, and exiting SaaS companies, it covers sales, positioning, pricing, and execution. Learn more at: https://hardknocksaas.com

Gladys Jeannette is a real estate investor and Broker in El Salvador. I've been wanting to speak to someone on the ground in El Salvador for quite some time, and Gladys is the perfect person to get an insider's look into the changes happening in the country.We dive deep into the life in El Salvador, real estate investing in the country, including which areas to keep an eye out for, how bitcoin is driving change, safety, and the way of life in the country.If you've been keeping an eye on El Salvador, curious about the changes happening in the country, real estate, or bitcoin, this is the perfect episode for you.

Adam Niman (BSc, CLU) is a seasoned life insurance professional with over a decade of experience in the field. His focus is exclusively on insurance, and he advocates for keeping insurance and investments separate.I first heard Adam on one of my favourite podcasts (see link below), talking about why the infinite banking concept is flawed. He raised some pretty eye-opening concerns and perspectives that stirred up some waves in the infinite banking circles.Since first hearing Adam on that podcast, we've since had several conversations, and wanted to have him on the podcast. I definitely think his insights and message is worth sharing.If you're familiar with infinite banking, have a policy, or thinking about getting setup, this is an episode you definitely want to hear.Download Adam's ebook "Fortune or Fiction" here: https://fortuneorfiction.ca/

➡️ The most important lessons from growing and selling a bootstrapped SaaS company, from a non-technical entrepreneur: https://www.hardknocksaas.com/ (use HUSTLE40 for 40% off).Matheus Riolfi is the founder and CEO of tint.ai, a company that provides embeddable insurance to tech platforms and marketplaces. Unlike most founders I speak to that are bootstrapped - Matheus followed a different journey. Launching in 2018, Matheus led his company through YC (Y Combinator), and most recently closed a $25 million Series A round.We cover several topics, including:- Why he chose to get funding, rather than bootstrap- How Tint maintains a positive workplace culture as a fully remote team- How his role as CEO continues to evolve- The most important skills a new founder should possess- Much moreFollow Matheus Riolfi on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mriolfi/Check out Tint: https://www.tint.ai/

** The most important lessons from growing and selling a bootstrapped SaaS company, from a non-technical entrepreneur: https://www.hardknocksaas.com/ (use HUSTLE40 for 40% off).Stefan Smulders is one of the best marketers I've spoken to. In 2019, he founded expandio.io, and was able to generate $1 million in run rate in the first six months after launch!Continuing to leverage creative and effective marketing strategies on social media, Stefan is leading Expandi to hit $10 million in revenue by the end of 2023.This was a fascinating conversation, and I encourage any startup founder or anyone in marketing to give it a listen. We touch on several topics, including:- Learning and growing from past business failures- How Expandi hit $1 million run-rate in the first six months- Leveraging your personal brand to grow your business- The psychology of sales- Effective growth channels used to reach $10 million revenue- Much moreFollow Stefan on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SmuldersStefanDownload the e-book "From Zero to SaaS Hero: https://expandi.io/from-zero-to-saas-hero-ebook/

The person I credit to introducing me to the Infinite Banking Concept, is none other than Chris Naugle.After hearing this episode, you'll quickly understand why Chris is considered "America's # 1 Money Mentor". He is truly a master of money.Chris has built and owned 19 companies, with his businesses being featured in Forbes, ABC, House Hunters, and his very own HGTV pilot in 2018. He is currently founder of The Money School™, and Money Mentor for The Money Multiplier.We dive into so many important money and financial topics, including:- The reasons why Silicon Valley Bank (SVB) and other banks are collapsing- Financial opportunities that everyone can be taking advantage of today- How to become your own banker (literally) using the Infinite Banking Concept- How Chris is personally leveraging his Infinite Banking Policies to make investments and earn income- Ways to protect yourself from financial collapse- How to be free and independent from a corrupted financial systemFollow Chris on YouTube: @TheChrisNaugle Learn more about Chris: https://www.chrisnaugle.com/